Can you explain?

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

The various popular English translation are at odds as to whether the Son is "the first-born over all creation" (as in the NIV and NK JV), thus first in rank, or whether he is "the firstborn of all creation" (which reflects a literal translation of the genitive case, as in the KJV, RV and NASB), meaning first in time, which would refer to Christ being the first-created being of creation.

I'm just a simple guy, please explain. What does "Only Begotten Son" mean in any language? A Son who has been with the Father from the very beginning? The Son who is God? That's what my Bible is saying to me. Are you saying it's a load of rubbish? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."  (Jn.1:1-3)

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."   (Jn.1:14).

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:18).

Where on earth can you in your carnal wisdom, which God has a high respect for, come up with the idea that the Word/begotten God was created? We are told by a reliable source, much more reliable than the one we are dealing with presently, that all things were created by this Word/God who we now know by several names, such as, Son/Jehovah/Christ etc. etc.

Jesus, unlike you or I, was a very humble man and though He knew that He was the Creator of the universe and all things in it, He never entertained the thought of ever boasting about it, hence there is no mention of Him making such a claim. 

Are you inferring that these three Bibles that I have are a load of rubbish and your earthly wisdom is right?

Be real, brother! "The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly. The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd. But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His
commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."   (Eccl.12:10-14).

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Roy    UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Christ the Head of the New Creation

What's has all this quote of yours and the entire Bible that follows got to do with the simple question that is being discussed? Is Christ/Word/God/Jehovah the Son of God, born of the Father and an inherent part of the Father or was He created a creature. If He was created then who is lying you or Christ?


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Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi Paul

Wasting time and space again with your part 2.

Christ the First-born of all the creation

You're off topic, come back to earth we're down here discussing a simple issue, I repeat; What has your long epistle got to do with the simple topic under discussion?  Begotten doesn't mean first-born, in matters not first, middle or last.  And it doesn't say only begotten of creation, that's what Paul says. What the Bible says only begotten of the Father. That's what the Bible says so let's be right.

This is the short answer we want of you, not the contents of the Bible. It's not surprising that it takes you so long to formulate your posts.

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Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation." As shown in my last post.
Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Once again I beg to differ. To be born in this unique instance does not need a beginning if it is the beginning. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2)

Please pay attention to the words, they are the words of God not mine.
He was the only begotten of the Father not the first-born of all creation

This is what we are discussing:

Is Jesus God or not?

This is the heading of the Chapter

Do we believe it or don't we?

The Deity of Jesus Christ

Born of the Father and not created by Him[/center]


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Roy   UK

[Pleroo]

A lot of the proof passages that I'm seeing posted here for Jesus being Jehovah are ones I've seen convincingly rebutted elsewhere, either as having been blatantly mistranslated or being taken out of context.  Then there are some passages which I can see being used, legitimately, by either side of the argument.  

The thing I keep coming back to are the many  passages that equate the Father alone with Jehovah. That's awfully compelling evidence, to me.  It was like truly seeing for the first time that all would be alive in Christ.  The Bible flat out says it, but as an ETer, I never really saw it.  Same in this instance.  The Bible flat out says that the Father is God ... He's our God, and He's Jesus' God.  Jesus , himself, says that the Father is the only true God.  But, as a Trinitarian I never "saw" those passages before.

But, Pierac, your arguments on John 1 are confusing to me.  At one point you're saying that the Word is just a concept, an idea and does not actually refer to the person, Jesus Christ, and that Jesus is simply a man whose existance began at physical birth.   At other times, you seem to be saying the opposite ... that, yes, the Word is Jesus and that proves he can't be God because He has a beginning whose existance began at or before creation.  Could you please clarify for me exactly what it is you're saying?

Because, to me, it seems very clear that this is referring to Jesus as the Word which existed with God from the beginning (which in my mind, doesn't necessarily preclude his existance prior to that).  And, as such, John 1:1 also declares Him to be god.  Not THE God, perhaps, but not A god, either.  Just, god.  [At least, that's what seems to be indicated by the fact that the definite article isn't used there in the Greek.  It's not "ho theos", but simply, "theos".]  What does that mean exactly?  What does it mean that the Word (Jesus, from my point of view) is god, but perhaps not THE God?  
Any thoughts?

[Roy Monis]

Hi! rosered

I have been banging my head against a brick wall trying to get this very point in your excellent post over as plainly and simply as I possibly could but as Isaiah said; "This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." (Jn.12:38).

Amen!

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Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

So always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son.  From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things."

Forgive me for disfiguring your quote. I agree and have never disputed the fact that all things proceed from the Father including His Son the Mediator but that's as far as it goes. The Father is not the Creator, the Mediator/Word who receives the command/logos comes forth from the Father and He does the creation. He is the Creator/Christ of all things with all power and authority/logos from His Father. This is what the Word of God is very plainly saying.

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Roy   UK

[Molly]

Molly Molly,

your missing the whole point!  "as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." The Father is the source of it all!  

Yes, and what is in the bosom of the Father?  Jesus!

The heart is in the bosom.



What are the Father's thoughts, words, intentions, motives and deeds?  Jesus!

The mind contains thoughts, words, intentions, motives, and deeds.



The Lord Jesus Christ--the heart and mind of the Father!--the heart and mind of God!



John 14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! reFORMer

Oops You left this out! Jesus as God

Hi! Buddie I like that and all that followed, but I'm afraid Jesus is not going to get His Body back just yet, too many antichrists about and they use the wisdom of man to twist things to suit themselves forgetting what God thinks of it; "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless." (1Cor.3:18-20).

The Lord wasn't kidding when He threatened to do what we can witness He's done. "...and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."  (2Thess.2:10-12).

The Lord does have a sense of humour. This reminds me of Elijah and the prophets of Baal  "It came about at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Call out with a loud voice, for he is a god; either he is occupied or gone aside, or is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and needs to be awakened." (1Kings 18:27).

Good post brother.

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Roy    UK

[Craig]

The thing I keep coming back to are the many  passages that equate the Father alone with Jehovah. That's awfully compelling evidence, to me.  It was like truly seeing for the first time that all would be alive in Christ.  The Bible flat out says it, but as an ETer, I never really saw it.  Same in this instance.  The Bible flat out says that the Father is God ... He's our God, and He's Jesus' God.  Jesus , himself, says that the Father is the only true God.  But, as a Trinitarian I never "saw" those passages before.

I have been in both schools of thought [actually there is more than one, Arianism (Jesus is just a man), Modelism (Jesus is the Father), Trinitarian (Jesus is God) and more].

The problem is understanding that God is not limited to cause and effect, God didn't leave heaven when He became a man and dwelt among us. For some reason this escapes people and they think that God works in the same sphere of power and knowledge that a man works and thinks.

Let me explain as simple as possible, what Jesus is.

There is no lie, when I say He is a man and that doesn't mean He was not God. When God became a man, that is what He became. That is why He did not pray to Himself even though He is from Heaven, but to the only God in Heaven, His Father because that is where He came from.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one [the man] who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

God in Heaven is the Father. Jesus Christ is the God in Heaven, who became a man and emptied Himself of who He was, God. Therefore, anytime Jesus spoke concerning God, He could only speak of the Father because that is where God is, and where Jesus was from. Only God is in Heaven, there is only man who came from Heaven, Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Philippians 2:5-8
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, so made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!

Trinitarian doctrine is flawed, Modelism doctrine is flawed, Arianism doctrine is flawed.

What remains, Jesus did not come from our earthly father, Adam. Jesus came from His Heavenly Father, God. That makes Him completely different than anything ever before or after Him. Whether Jesus was created or not is not really an issue when we understand this. Jesus did not come from the dust of the earth therefore since He was not from dust, to dust did He not return. That is why Jesus could not be created, but begotten. Jesus was God and being that He was God, He could not be created, only born.

This is the flaw of Pierac's position. He is unable to see it because of the same reason you could not see what you saw while under a particular position.

[Roy Monis]

When has God ever lowered Himself? Impossible!

Paul, did you even take time to actually think about what you just wrote, before writing it?

Luke 1:37 "For nothing is impossible with God."



Anyways,

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Philippians 2:5-7
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing,  taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Romans 9:5
The forefathers are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those who have obtained a faith of equal privilege with ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Hi! SOtW

Luke 1:37[/b] "For nothing is impossible with God."

Great post brother, but will it do any good?  I pray "Lord the brick wall in front of me is so very thick and the head you have given me is so very small and tender. Strengthen it please, Lord. Amen!"


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Roy   UK 

[Molly]

When Jesus walked this earth, he did a lot of things for our benefit,  for the fulfillment of scripture.   He is the Way, and he was therefore explicit in his actions so that we would know and could follow him.

For instance, when he comes to the river Jordan to be baptised by John the Baptist, John is --like--are you kidding me? :mshock:  I'm not worthy to tie your shoe laces and you want me to baptise you? :mshock: But, Jesus insists because this is for our benefit, for the fulfillment of scripture.  So to say that Jesus was just another anointed man misses the point.



13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

--Mat 3

[CHB]

Here is an article that explains what God is. The thing most people get confused with is Jesus being referred to as God but Jesus Himself called the Jew's God also (John 10:34) "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said Ye, are God's"?  
Does that make the Jew's God the Father? No, neither does calling Jesus God make Him God the Father. There is ONE God the Father and there is ONE Lord Jesus Christ which is also referred to as God. Why? because He is God the Father's Son.

Just What is God
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess039.htm

CHB

[Pleroo]

There is no lie, when I say He is a man and that doesn't mean He was not God. When God became a man, that is what He became. That is why He did not pray to Himself even though He is from Heaven, but to the only God in Heaven, His Father because that is where He came from.

What remains, Jesus did not come from our earthly father, Adam. Jesus came from His Heavenly Father, God. That makes Him completely different than anything ever before or after Him. Whether Jesus was created or not is not really an issue when we understand this. Jesus did not come from the dust of the earth therefore since He was not from dust, to dust did He not return. That is why Jesus could not be created, but begotten. Jesus was God and being that He was God, He could not be created, only born.

This is the flaw of Pierac's position. He is unable to see it because of the same reason you could not see what you saw while under a particular position.

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but let me be absolutely sure.  You're proposing that the Christ was God but once he became human (Jesus), he was no longer God?  

 

[Molly]

The thing most people get confused with is Jesus being referred to as God but Jesus Himself called the Jew's God also (John 10:34) "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said Ye, are God's"? 

Yes, CHB, that's from Psalm 82--"gods"--small g.


6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


But, there is a caveat, lest we get too proud--


7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.


And, Jesus took it one step further--he raised himself after death--


8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

--Psalm 82

[CHB]

Yes, and what is in the bosom of the Father?  Jesus!

The heart is in the bosom.

If Jesus being in the bosom of the Father makes Him the Father, would that make the beggar in Luke 16 Abraham? (Luke 16:22)

CHB

[Molly]

Yes, and what is in the bosom of the Father?  Jesus!

The heart is in the bosom.

If Jesus being in the bosom of the Father makes Him the Father, would that make the beggar in Luke 16 Abraham? (Luke 16:22)

CHB

Yes. 

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[CHB]

Yes, CHB, that's from Psalm 82--"gods"--small g.

There are many gods and many lords. Why is that word even used if there is only ONE God? (1Cor.8:5)

(Psalms 86:8) Among the gods there is none like unto thee, OLord.

Even though there are many gods the Father is the one above all the other gods, just like your Father is the head of your household.

To understand God look at the creation and how it operates.

CHB

[CHB]

Yes, and what is in the bosom of the Father?  Jesus!

The heart is in the bosom.

If Jesus being in the bosom of the Father makes Him the Father, would that make the beggar in Luke 16 Abraham? (Luke 16:22)

CHB

Yes. 

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I think you missed my point Molly.

Yes, we will all be one at some point in time but we will also be individuals, so was the beggar different from Abraham.

CHB

[Molly]

There are many gods and many lords. Why is that word even used if there is only ONE God? (1Cor.8:5)

Yes.

All those with the seed of Christ are 'gods' and 'lords'

But there is only one at the top--one King, one God, one LORD.


15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

--Rev 19


Praise Yah!  Halleluyah!

[CHB]

But there is only one at the top--one King, one God, one LORD

Yes, and that is God the Father. Jesus said "my Father is greater than I". Could Jesus be greater than Himself?

CHB

[Molly]

I think you missed my point Molly.

Yes, we will all be one at some point in time but we are totally different people now, so was the beggar different from Abraham.

CHB

No, I didn't miss your point.  Did you miss God's point?


4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

--Gen 17

[Molly]

But there is only one at the top--one King, one God, one LORD

Yes, and that is God the Father. Jesus said "my Father is greater than I". Could Jesus be greater than Himself?

CHB

Yes.


9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

--Hebrews 2

[willieH]

willieH: Howdy sports fans... :hithere:

When has God ever lowered Himself? Impossible!

Paul, did you even take time to actually think about what you just wrote, before writing it?

Luke 1:37 "For nothing is impossible with God."

That NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD, does not mean He shall do ALL things which appear to us, ...IMPOSSIBLE...

Nor shall He react to ANY of our proposals of IMPOSSIBILITY... so as to "show off" and astound us... He shall easily display this to us by HIS Originations within His PURPOSE for us...

To deduce something IMPOSSIBLE is to observe that it cannot be done or accomplished by FINITES... from a FINITE perspective...

GOD has never and will never LOWER Himself, even though He could do so if He should decide to... (this is as the proposal of Him "creating a rock to heavy for him to lift")

There is a REASON YHVH is known as FATHER and CHRIST is His SON... the FATHER preceeds the SON... yet is completely INVESTED IN Him... as the EXPRESSION of the FATHER...

JESUS is not His own ORIGIN... He is the EXPRESSION of the ONE which is SELF-EXISTENT...

JESUS and ANY OTHER SON... are only SONS because they have a FATHER...

The reverse can be also truly stated (the Father is a Father because He has Sons), ...but the FATHER is CAUSE for the existence of the SON (and subsequent sons), and concerning CAUSE, the reverse cannot be truly stated...

The WORD lived in the Heart of the FATHER, but until expressed... was NOT available to any except the FATHER... and was OUTWARDLY manifested BY the FATHER'S decision to SPEAK...

PeaCe...
...willieH  :happygrin:

[Craig]

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but let me be absolutely sure.  You're proposing that the Christ was God but once he became human (Jesus), he was no longer God?  

Right. That is what Scripture says. He became a man, in order that He make all mankind Children of God. So when He returns to God, God will be all in all because we will be with Him.