Can you explain?

[Pierac]

Part two

Christ the First-born of all the creation

The word "first-born" comes to the New Testament with a rich heritage. The Hebrews had a custom of conferring special birthright privileges on their oldest sons. The eldest son of a father would receive the double portion of the family's inheritance. The well-known story of Jacob tricking his father Isaac into conferring on him - rather than on the first-born-Esau all the family blessing is typical of this culture (Gen 27:32). There is a deeper nuance to the meaning of this word "first-born." The Greek word for "first" can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The "first-born" may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as "my first-born" preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 40 9:3)

Although Reubin is "first-born" in time, the prominent idea is his status in dignity. This is clearly the meaning in Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim his "first-born" even though Ephraim's brother, Manasseh, was the elder of the two. Or when God calls Israel his first-born son in Exodus 4:22 and commands Pharaoh to "let my son go that he may worship me." (v.23) The concept has to do with Israel's precedence in importance over Egypt as far as God's plans were concerned. The classic instance of this idea of pre-eminence of rank is in the Messianic Psalms 89 where God, in glowing words, speaks of the coming promise Davidic king, the Lord Messiah:

Psa 89:26 He shall cry to me, 'You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.' 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. 29 I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens.

In the spirit of prophecy, God announces that this king's superior position is a matter of appointment, not the time of birth. Furthermore, God makes his appointed king "the highest [in status and rank] of the kings of the earth." Thus, when the apostle applies the term "first-born" to the son of God in Colossians 1, he is using a well-known OT Messianic description. In fact, the expression is repeated a few verses later, where Paul writes, "He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead" (v.18). The different qualifier here is noteworthy. Whereas in verse 15 the Son is the "first-born" of all creation," here the Son is the "first-born from the dead." If we take into account the Hebrew literary style of parallelism, where the same idea is repeated but in slightly modified form, it is quite reasonable to suggest that the qualifiers "of all creation" and "from the dead" means the same thing.

The thought is clearly that Jesus the son of God is the first man of God's new creation, because he is the first man ever to be raised to immortality. Christ return is the beginning of the eschatological resurrection. His resurrection is the promise and the guarantee that God's new order of reality has begun. The church is that new community in prospect. This confirms that the subject matter under discussion is not the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth, but rather the creation of the church, the body of believers who constitute God's new humanity, the New Man(kind). For this reason, he is the beginning (arche which has an ambivalence, and can mean either the ruler or chief, or origin or beginning, v. 18) Either way, Jesus as the first-raised from the dead is the origin of God's new creation, and he is in consequence of this priority and resurrection also the highest in rank "so that he himself might come to have first place in everything" (v.18). However, whether we take the term firstborn to mean first in relation to time or first in relation to rank, this much is at least clear, that taken in its natural sense, the expression and firstborn excludes the notion of an uncreated, eternal being.

To be born requires a beginning. In order to verify our findings so far, we must look at the second part of the phrase that the son is "the first-born of all creation." As shown in my last post.

Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.


Paul

[Molly]

Pierac, I think you are rightly perceiving Jesus as the prototype son.  He is the firstborn of many brothers.

What is actually happening here?  The divinity of all the fulness of the Godhead has entered the human body of flesh and blood--the Word became flesh and walked among us.

The Light has come into the world--in flesh and blood, walking on the feet of man.

But, that's not the end of it.  Because for him to be the captain of our salvation, he must conquer the death of the body--he must reverse the law of physics as we know it.

Thus, the resurrected Christ is the first of a new creation--but he has resurrected himself--because who could do this, if not God?

I am not intending to resurrect myself.  God, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ will do that--he has so promised me.


John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[rosered]

 
 Hi Molly   ,
in the old testimony   we have  many names  ,  and it being so casually tossed around  , it seems to have lost its    zeal , being  marred beyond recognition  
 and Jesus Christ is called many things   Lamb of GOD  ,good shepherd   tree of LIFE   THE WIDSOM OF GOD etc ..
 but the name    Jesus Christ is the   revealing of salvation to mankind

  here is  my  proofs /stance , why I believe this as a truth

 
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.


to me it is the SON OF GOD / JESUS CHRIST/WORD OF GOD  first begotten from the dead ..
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
To me the WORD OF GOD  on the  white stoney heart[ours ]  ...  


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
Act 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, [even] unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

remember the  bounding of the grave clothes ?

THE napkin  on the face  in aplace of its own ? [HEAD  uncovered  now ] which is jesus Christ to me  revealed  to all ..the gift of faith  in Christ  the annoited and Holy One

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



1Cr 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?    seeing this Holy Spirit  also  shdowing over   the many  born again  from the point of  [ heaven open]

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,/JESUS CHRIST /SAVIOR ANNOINTED   which liveth and abideth for ever.

 and the  power of God/SON OF GOD    JESUS CHRIST   being the SWORD /WORD THAT  proceeds out of HIS MOUTH
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 within them  its the Spirit of prophecy   Jesus Christ testinony /witness /will
Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Testator1  Strong's Number: 1303 Greek: diatithemi
"to arrange, dispose," is used only in the Middle Voice in the NT; in Hbr 9:16,17, the present participle with the article, lit., "the (one) making a testament (or covenant)," virtually a noun, "the testator" (the covenanting one); it is used of "making a covenant" in Hbr 8:10; 10:16; Act 3:25. In "covenant-making," the sacrifice of a victim was customary ( Gen 15:10; Jer 34:18,19). He who "made a covenant" did so at the cost of a life. While the terminology in Hbr 9:16,17 has the appearance of being appropriate to the circumstances of making a will, there is excellent reason for adhering to the meaning "covenant-making." The rendering "the death of the testator" would make Christ a Testator, which He was not. He did not die simply that the terms of a testamentary disposition might be fulfilled for the heirs. Here He who is "the Mediator of a new covenant" ( Hbr 9:15) is Himself the Victim whose death was necessary. The idea of "making a will" destroys the argument of Hbr 9:18. In spite of various advocacies of the idea of a will, the weight of evidence is confirmatory of what Hatch, in Essays in Biblical Greek, p. 48, says: "There can be little doubt that the word (diatheke) must be invariably taken in this sense of 'covenant' in the NT, and especially in a book so impregnated with the language of the Sept. as the Epistle to the Hebrews" (see also Westcott, and W. F. Moulton). We may render somewhat literally thus: "For where a covenant (is), a death (is) necessary to be brought in of the one covenanting; for a covenant over dead ones (victims) is sure, since never has it force when the one covenanting lives' [Christ being especially in view]. The writer is speaking from a Jewish point of view, not from that of the Greeks. "To adduce the fact that in the case of wills the death of the testator is the condition of validity, is, of course, no proof at all that a death is necessary to make a covenant valid. ... To support his argument, proving the necessity of Christ's death, the writer adduces the general law that he who makes a covenant does so at the expense of life" (Marcus Dods). See APPOINT, MAKE. 1) to arrange, dispose of, one's own affairs

a) of something that belongs to one

b) to dispose of by will, make a testament

2) to make a covenant, enter into a covenant, with one



 ALIVE for ever more .........  this is when the rubber meets the road  


Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 these are the numerous scriptures that speak of the'' same things'' again and again and to whom it come into and out of   same witness  within us all  whom believe and  given the gift of faith  
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the  same things by mouth:Sparkletooth:.



Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.



Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.




Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.
  peace and God bless rr

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Thank you brother.

John  20:17  Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Absolutely true the Father is Jesus' Father and Mary's Father as He was Jesus' God and her God. He was still on earth and not ascended to the Father at that point. And even so the Father is still His God even after He ascends and He is God to His Father. We learn this from; [color blue]"But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions." [/color] (Heb.1:8-9).

So the Father is God and the Son is God, but still ONE GOD.

(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)

Roy   UK

[Molly]

The Greek word for "first" can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The "first-born" may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as "my first-born" preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 40 9:3)

Yes, but God flips this on its head, doesn't he, Pierac?

Adam is the first son.  Israel is the first son.   Ishmael is the first son.  Esau is the first son.

But who is pre-eminent in all these cases?  The second son.


The elder shall serve the younger--God has flipped the law on its head.

[Craig]

The Greek word for "first" can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The "first-born" may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as "my first-born" preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 40 9:3)

Yes, but God flips this on its head, doesn't he, Pierac?

Adam is the first son.  Israel is the first son.   Ishmael is the first son.  Esau is the first son.

But who is pre-eminent in all these cases?  The second son.

The elder shall serve the younger--God has flipped the law on its head.

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Paul is talking like a lawyer here. If I make a will, it is just an unenforceable piece of paper until I die.  Then it goes into effect and my beneficiaries inherit.

If I make a will, and somebody else dies, my beneficiaries do not inherit anything.

Since Jesus Christ is the one who died, that also makes him the one who made the testament in the first place--God.  The Lord Jesus must be the testator of the will.

Otherwise, as co-inheritor of this will, I will receive nothing, because he's the one who died.


19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

--1Cor 15


The resurrected Christ is my inheritance.

[Pierac]

The Greek word for "first" can mean either a first in time or first in status, regardless of birth position. The "first-born" may designate one who is given the honor of chief rank, that is, the first place. This usage can also be found in the Hebrew Bible, as when Jacob summons his son to bequeath his patriarchal blessing on them, he designates Reuben as "my first-born" preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power. (Gen 40 9:3)

Yes, but God flips this on its head, doesn't he, Pierac?

Adam is the first son.  Israel is the first son.   Ishmael is the first son.  Esau is the first son.

But who is pre-eminent in all these cases?  The second son.


The elder shall serve the younger--God has flipped the law on its head.

Yes, Adam had to come first.

Paul

[Pierac]

Hi Pleroo,   :hihat:  On another forum a fellow who has the same beliefs as myself posted this below...  I though it might be helpful in understanding certain verses, that could very easily be taken the wrong way. BTW, Thanks for the P.M.'s    :thumbsup:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Speaks for itself.

He received a honest question in turn.

What's the main difference in "of whom" and "by whom" in the context of this passage?

Here is my reply, hopfully it will help explain certain verses that use "Through" (dia) and "by" (dia) in scripture...


Hello STP, The answer is in the little word "by"  better known in the Greek as "Dia"

G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word  "of"  better known in the Greek as ek

1537
εκ, εξ
ek  ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.


Dia is the "preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ.  Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan.  Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God's initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin.

Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: "yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, 'out from' ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, 'to' ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him" (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's "interior", so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Both verses say that the source of "all things" is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah" is giving the preposition dia which means "through."

In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ... has blessed us... in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself" (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus" (Rom. 2:16).

"For God... has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.  Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through(dia) whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Just look at how the Message Bible words it...
1Co 8:6 They say--again, quite rightly--that there is only one God the Father, that everything comes from him, and that he wants us to live for him. Also, they say that there is only one Master--Jesus the Messiah--and that everything is for his sake, including us. Yes. It's true.

The Message Bible may be a little simplistic but you get the picture.

So always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son.  From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things."  In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion.  The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

So that is the difference between "of whom" and "by whom."



Paul

[rosered]

Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Paul is talking like a lawyer here. If I make a will, it is just an unenforceable piece of paper until I die.  Then it goes into effect and my beneficiaries inherit.

If I make a will, and somebody else dies, my beneficiaries do not inherit anything.

Since Jesus Christ is the one who died, that also makes him the one who made the testament in the first place--God.  The Lord Jesus must be the testator of the will.

Otherwise, as co-inheritor of this will, I will receive nothing, because he's the one who died.


19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

--1Cor 15


The resurrected Christ is my inheritance.

Thanks Molly , 
yes He is .........  We are now alive  through Him  to God ,serving the Lord  and GOD Now we go back and Look at how many times its the Lord God   created and  makes  all things  hummm
reading all of Matt 22  says  more but , here
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine. 

  now we are seeing the LORD   JESUS CHRIST  here  to David ..through the eternal SPIRIT

  Mat 22:42  Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

  the Eternal Spirit again is  able to call Jesus Christ LORD , by  Davids spirit
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
 

  the ''ETERNAL SPIRIT ''

to me its about keeping a clean  conscience before the Lord
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
   peace and grace  rr

[CHB]

If Jesus and the Father were the same being why do all the apostles begin their epistles with "peace from God our Father AND the lord Jesus Christ"?

(Gal. 1:1) Paul and apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, AND God the Father, who raised Him (Jesus) from the dead.  

(James 1:1) a servant of God AND of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If Jesus and the Father were one and the same why referr to two beings in all of the epistles?

One question for those who believe Jesus and the Father are the same being?
While Jesus was dead who was running things? Can God the Father die?  Who was in the tomb?

CHB

[Craig]

If Jesus and the Father were the same being why do all the apostles begin their epistles with "peace from God our Father AND the lord Jesus Christ"?

Because the Father is God in Heaven, and our Lord Jesus Christ was God on descended to earth. The distinction was placed because God was still in heaven, even though He became flesh and dwelt amongst us. It is One and same God.

Let me repeat, God is heaven the Father and God who lowered Himself and took on the image of man, is Jesus Christ.

Honestly, it is not that hard to understand.

[Pierac]

Let me repeat, God is heaven the Father and God who lowered Himself and took on the image of man, is Jesus Christ.

Honestly, it is not that hard to understand.

When has God ever lowered Himself? Impossible!

I have a question, Was Jesus fully God and fully man?

[reFORMer]

Son of God

God Himself refers to Jesus as His Son: Mt 2: 15, 3:17, 17: 5, Mk 1: 11, 9: 7, Lk 9: 35

Jesus says that he is the Son of God: Mt 26: 63, Lk 22: 70, Jn 5: 25, 10: 36, 19: 7

The angel Gabriel says Jesus is the Son of God: Luke 1: 35

Peter says that Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 16: 16

John the Apostle says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 20: 31, 1 Jn 3: 23, 4: 15, 5:5

All the Apostles say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 14: 33, Jn 6: 69

John the Baptist says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 34

John Mark says Jesus is the Son of God: Mk 1: 1

Paul says Jesus is the Son of God: Acts 9: 20, Rom 1: 4, 1 Cor 1: 9, 2 Cor 1:19, Gal 2: 20, Heb 4: 14

Nathanael says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 49

Demons say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 8: 29, Mk 3: 11, 5: 7, Lk 4: 41, 8: 28

The Centurion says Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 27: 54, Mk 15: 39

Now, let's look at all the massive scripture that teaches Jesus is God the Son!

God the Son

Oops Nobody.

So why do you believe Jesus is "God the Son?"  Maybe the same reason you once believed in Hell? Don't let me or anyone else tell you what to believe, seek the Spirit and search the scriptures for yourself!


God the Son

Oops Nobody.

Paul

Oops You left this out!
Jesus as God


Jesus Christ as God
=============

Certainly
John 1:1
John 20:28

Very probably
Romans 9:5
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8 (Psalm 45:7-8)
2 Peter 1:1

Probably
John 1:18

Possibly
Acts 20:28
Hebrews 1:9
1 John 5:20

other texts
Matthew 1:23
John 17:3
Galatians 2:20
Ephesians 5:5
Colossians 2:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
1 Timothy 3:16


(The preceding is from a book called Jesus As God.  It is a hardback still packed with other books of mine so I can't tell you the authors.  It is one of the most exacting scrutinys of the language of any text I've ever come across, uber technical linguistics.  The results, above, I had written a copy of in my CLV N.T.)
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Matthew 1:23
"Yet to the Son: 'Your throne, O God, is into the eon of the eon...'" Hebrews 1:8

P.S.  Jesus is God become man (kenosis), dead and buried.  Then He raised and ascended back into the right hand of God.

[Craig]

When has God ever lowered Himself? Impossible!

Paul, did you even take time to actually think about what you just wrote, before writing it?

Luke 1:37 "For nothing is impossible with God."



Anyways,

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Philippians 2:5-7
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing,  taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Romans 9:5
The forefathers are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those who have obtained a faith of equal privilege with ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Pierac]

Jesus Christ as God
=============

Certainly
John 1:1
John 20:28

Very probably
Romans 9:5
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8 (Psalm 45:7-8)
2 Peter 1:1

Probably
John 1:18

Possibly
Acts 20:28
Hebrews 1:9
1 John 5:20

other texts
Matthew 1:23
John 17:3
Galatians 2:20
Ephesians 5:5
Colossians 2:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
1 Timothy 3:16


(The preceding is from a book called Jesus As God.  It is a hardback still packed with other books of mine so I can't tell you the authors.  It is one of the most exacting scrutinys of the language of any text I've ever come across, uber technical linguistics.  The results, above, I had written a copy of in my CLV N.T.)
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Matthew 1:23
"Yet to the Son: 'Your throne, O God, is into the eon of the eon...'" Hebrews 1:8

P.S.  Jesus is God become man (kenosis), dead and buried.  Then He raised and ascended back into the right hand of God.

Due to time/space restraints (pun intended) Let's just deal with your "Certainly"
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "

Ok reFORMer, thank you for your input.  I'm sure your sincere and love the lord as I!  So why do you see the "word" as being God Almighty! and I do not? Could it be because you follow the traditions of men? First you let emotion, cloud your understanding! Simply put God has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) here clearly does!  So, I will leave it to you to figure it out! Yes, eternity has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) does! (John 1:1)   :mshock:


John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

I already covered this, keep reading just three more simple verses, as to why John wrote this!

Joh 20:31 Yet these are written that you should be believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, believing, you may have life eonian in His name."

Yep, the Son of God and NOT God, just like I have been showing!

Paul

[Molly]

John 20:21  So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22  And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit.

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

--Gen 2

[Pierac]

When has God ever lowered Himself? Impossible!

Paul, did you even take time to actually think about what you just wrote, before writing it?

Luke 1:37 "For nothing is impossible with God."



Anyways,

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Philippians 2:5-7
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing,  taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Romans 9:5
The forefathers are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those who have obtained a faith of equal privilege with ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

All I'm asking is do you agree with the Chalcedon Creed.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

A simple Yes or No will do. Just want to understand where you stand.

Paul

[Pierac]

John 20:21  So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22  And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit.

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

--Gen 2

Molly Molly,

your missing the whole point!  "as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."  The Father is the source of it all!  

[reFORMer]

Due to time/space restraints (pun intended) Let's just deal with your "Certainly"
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "

Ok reFORMer, thank you for your input.  I'm sure your sincere and love the lord as I!  So why do you see the "word" as being God Almighty! and I do not? Could it be because you follow the traditions of men? First you let emotion, cloud your understanding! Simply put God has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) here clearly does!  So, I will leave it to you to figure it out! Yes, eternity has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) does! (John 1:1)   :mshock:

Is my word me?  If I'm around the corner of the house and you don't see me, when I yell at you is it me talking to you?  While I am in Georgia on the east side of the continent, on the computer I call my sister in California, is she really talking to me?  My body is here but my word is in California.  We have true fellowship.  Even more so if our images are sent over the internet live to one another.  Like Jesus says, "He that has seen me has seen the Father."  Jesus says, "Lo, I and the little children who are given Me by God! (Heb 2:13)  As also Isaiah says He shall be called, "...the everlasting Father..."

[Molly]

"Word"

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Can I be separated from my thoughts?  Can I be separated from my mind?  Doesn't the thought precede the word?


The Divine Expression--the mind of Christ--


John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.



No man has seen the Father because the Father is Spirit--but when that Spirit, indeed all the fulness of the Godhead, is contained within the body of the Lord Jesus Christ, you have seen the Father and now you know him.


John 14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Brother Pleroo

I see where it says that Jesus was that rock, but not where it says Jehovah was.  So, while I think that passage seems to pertain to the preexistance of Christ, I'm not sure that it necessariy proves that He is Jehovah./quote]

You read it wrong, brother, it doesn't say Jesus was the Rock. Christ was the Rock, Jesus the man is yet in the future. Christ is the Word/Jehovah/Son of God/God of our ancestors. 

I understand that angel can mean messenger and I should have been more precise in the way I worded what I said.  My belief is that Jesus is not one of the created heavenly beings that we refer to as angels

Angels can mean not just ordinary messengers but can have various degrees of importance, such as, archangels, ambassadors, etc. etc. Messages of minor importance were given by angels; messages of joy and good news was delivered by archangels, such as Gabriel to Daniel, Zacharias and Mary; messages that were beyond the power of the archangels are delivered by the only One with power and authority capable of guaranteed success, namely, His only Begotten Son/Word/Jehovah/Christ/God. For only God has the power to create something out of nothing. This feat is beyond the power of a simple created being. Logos was the spoken word that Jehovah/Word was commanded by the Father to speak to start creation; "Let there be light."  When Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit then Jehovah/Christ/Word/Son of God/God (all the same Entity) was implanted into the body of the flesh man Jesus. It was then that Jesus the man became Christ/God subject only to His Father. His Father's Spokesman. [color= red]"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." [/color] (Jn.5:30)

I fervently pray that I will not be.  But if I had not put aside my fears about being deceived I would never have been brought to see what the Bible says about UR.  I feel I must also approach this subject with a mind that is open and I suppose that leaves me wide open to being deceived.  I'll have to trust that God can guard me.

I will also be praying for you and humbly ask you to pray for me also as I face the same threat from the innumerable antichrists in our midst. This is the time to clothe oneself in the armour of God, as we'll sure need it.

(http://dl8.glitter-graphics.net/pub/206/206938s9pnr6xz6d.gif)

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! rosered

I'll call you rosered brother because rr looks too much like it, if you don't mind? I'll be able to sleep better knowing I haven't offended you.  :laughing7: :laughing7: :boyheart: :boyheart:

the NAME  OF THE WORD OF GOD is Jesus Christ

I can't fault that, it is our Lord's new name; "He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God." (Rev.19:13).

SPIRIT AND TRUTH  IS  GOD   I know thats a broad  statment

That is also Jesus Christ/God  "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."  (Jn.14:6).  The Spirit is life.

HOLY SPIRIT  IS  THE WORD OF GOD /Jesus Christ  and the Father /God  working   within us

In this case I believe that the the word of God is the logos which is the command given to Christ by which to started the creation work. The Holy Spirit is the Father and Son actually within us; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him."  (Jn.14:23). A good analogy would be to look at it in this carnal way; we are in the air around us and the air around us is also in us.

I hope that helps brother. Just my opinion but pretty sound judging by the Scriptures.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)
Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Jesus was a very common name. So how many  "God with us" do you think there were?

Indeed "Jesus" was a very common name but it wasn't the name "Jesus" that translates "God with us". If you look more closely you'll very plainly see that the name "Emmanuel" means "God with us" and Emmanuel was not a very common name in those days.

Sorry to butt in Molly.


(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)[/url

Roy   UK

[riverman]

Hi Paul,

Perhaps you are right that there isn't a verse phrased as you presented; "God the Son"

But on the other hand there is no verse that calls Christ "The Second Begotten Son Of God" either.

We don't have a verse that calls Adam the First Begotten Son.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Jn 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

There is more to add to the following but what Paul wrote here sums it up for me;

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:

Col 1:17  And he is before all things and by him all things consist.

Peace,

RM

Hi Joe, I'm trying to post the truth and keep the peace at the same time. Not so easy if your truth does not alway agree with others! I enjoy your scripture post but have no idea what it means to you? For example...

Joh 1:14  And the Word (Logos) was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (created) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So you just posted a verse that reads the "Logos" (God's "plan", "internal reasoning")  was made flesh and dwelt among us. Yep, just like your logos to have a child was made flesh the day your child was born, and dwelt among you, So does that make your child 'you', just because "it" was your logos in the beginning?  No.  Now we need to look at the word Begotten! Begotten means you have a beginning! God is eternal and has no beginning! Even the logos has a beginning! (Yep, In the beginning!) So, again, God has no beginning!  If one wants to get really silly they can always go with "eternally begotten"  Now, that's a real oxymoron!   :thumbsup:

Next you posted... Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Again, I'm not sure what your saying. Are you saying Jesus is not God because people actually saw him? (I'll be fair, Probably not)! Here's that darn begotten word again!
Well, all this verse is saying is that Jesus the "begotten son" hath declared the Father. (You will note it's only the Father too! No Holy Spirit or Trinity being declared?)

Next you posted... Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Well, you more or less supported my understanding! I believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and not God, So what does scripture have to say of my belief? How do I stand? Let's see...

1Jo 4:15  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. and  1Jo 5:10  The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

Well, I believe Jesus is "the Son of God" and "the testimony that God has given concerning His Son".  I would suggest some here think Jesus is God and "has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son"?

There is more to add to the following but what Paul wrote here sums it up for me;

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

If I said I had an image of a Porsche in my driveway, how many of you would be impressed. Remember, we are not to worship images!  (John 4:23)

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:

Read this verse again, (IN Heaven) and (upON the Earth) This is not a creation verse, but one of thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers! All given by God the Father! Just look at all the adjectives next to Jesus name! (Given, granted, appointed, heir, chosen, etc..)

So back to my original point, if you use scripture, tell me what it means to you! 
Paul

Hi Paul,

My point was that Christ is presently the only Son (capital S). Let's set aside the begotten part for now, He is the only Son, Adam is a son.

Same thing with Lord, there are many lords, only One Lord, kings, One King, etc.

That was the distinction I was making, sorry for being unclear.

Peace to you,

RM