Can you explain?

[Molly]

Yes, I agree! This is what being anointed means!

Not exactly.  I might be anointed but I am not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

King Saul was anointed but he was not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Paul was anointed but he was not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

How do you know?

Because I know what he looks like, and so far the above mentioned fall short of his glory.

John 14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[Pierac]

Okay, what about Jesus' pre-existance?  If you've already covered this, I didn't see it. I have seen your answer to the idea that all things were not created through him (although, so far, that seems to me to be your weakest argument).  But when he says that before Abraham was, I am, doesn't that indicate he existed before him?  That may not indicate that Jesus is Yaweh, but it does seem to indicate something beyond mere mortal man.  Again, he's not an angel so there's got to be something more here. 

And, in spite of what you've said, John 1 and Col 1 still seem to pretty clearly point to him as having been the one through whom all things were created.  (While much of what you're saying makes sense to me, I've tried to see that particular part of the argument from your point of view and it's simply not sitting right.)  Again, even if the Son is not Yaweh these things indicate he is something beyond a man, even a man annointed by God.

Now your talking! This is exactly where I had my problem too!  Sorry, but you have to wait until tomorrow.   It takes 1 to 2 hours to put together a post, and it's late and I'm tired! :happytired:

Paul

[Pierac]

Hey Molly,

It's getting late but I have one simple question. What does it mean to be filled with the Spirit? What comes to your mind when I ask that? How are we filled with the Spirit?

Thanks,
Paul

[Molly]

Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.


Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.



Luke 1
41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.



When Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, not a whole lot out of the ordinary happened, except--she saw the truth and spoke the truth.  The babe, John, also saw the truth, expressing his joy by leaping in his mother's womb.

[Molly]

For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly  not God but a human being.  The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

"No Jew---ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a baby."

That's one of the reasons they missed him.

John 10
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


They also must have missed this prophecy, too--


Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Proverbs 30:4

Who has ascended heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hand?
Who has wrapped the waters in his garment?
Who was established all the extremeties of the earth?
What is his name or his son's name, if you know it?

[Molly]

The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories.  What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man"  (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.



John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.



1Cor 15

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.




John 20

15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Son of God -  This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

What's stopping you publishing your own version of the Bible, Paul, you will very likely be able to add yet more erroneous meanings to the Father Son relationship?

The Holy Scriptures as we have them are quite sufficient with the aid of Him, Christ within in, to overcome any shortcomings that the well meaning translators may be responsible for. Do we need your intellectual expertise? NO we don't! God before man every time! 

Hi! Paul. We are taking here about His Son who is also God by right of birth.
Then so is Adam, the Son of God. But everyone would agree, Adam is not God.

With all your intellectual power you are failing to make sense, brother. The Son of God was begotten by the Father, had you forgotten? Adam was created out of the clay. And who created Adam if not the Son?  The Son is the Potter and Adam is but the clay. A big enough difference I should think even for big thinkers. "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?   (Rom.9:20-21).

Please get real!

Have we not been told that the Father's predestined plan for the human race is that we all be  sons of God in the making, hence Israel, Adam and everyone else is a prospective son of God in due season. But the Firstborn is special, He is the Leader, the Father's spokesman the Logos. He is God in the image of His Father. Adam, Israel and eventually we will be begotten sons of the Father, Born Again through His Son/Jehovah/Word/Christ/ Jesus. And may I add we will be Begotten, Born Again and not as you would have it created. "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ." (Matt.23:10)


It all ads up, brother, it's your excessive devotion to books that's your trouble, try trusting God. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding." (pro.3:5).  And obey to His warning; "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death"  (Pro.14:12)

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Brother rr

this helped me to see  more clearly

You have lost me, brother. See what more clearly?

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK  :boyheart: :boyheart: :boyheart:

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Nathan

One God? Or one in Mind and Spirit.

For me, I am a spirit, that has a soul, that lives in a body . .you can't separate one from the other without affecting all three .  . . I see God to be the same way.  He is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you can't divide one from the other two without bringing disorder to all three.

The carnal soul, spirit and body can be separated, and they are at death. The soul goes to sleep in sheol, the body returns to the dust from whence it was taken and the spirit returns to God from whence it came. God is eternal, no beginning and no end. The Son is the Image of the Father, a clone if you like within the Father and the Father's Spirit is in both. ONE GOD. "I and the Father are one" (Jn.10:30).

Where there is no death there can be no separation.

We will all be, in some future season, in God. Inseparable and still ONE GOD.

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)
(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)

Roy    UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Brother Paul

You will soon be in need of a new Bible, because I just can't keep up with the deluge of questions you pose in a single email. I will answer the first five, and if you need the rest answering please post in any number of shorter emails.

Moses himself said:  "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15).

I see nothing unusual about that. Moses was just a man, flesh and blood. So what was Jesus other than just a man, flesh and blood? "So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."  (Jn.6:53-58).

Now I hope you understand that this is figurative language and that Jesus wasn't presenting Himself as a ready meal. This is just to prove that He was flesh and blood just like Moses, so where's the problem?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise

Unlike Moses who had the Spirit of God in Him, which is no different to us who are in Christ. Jesus actually had the only Begotten Son of God/Word/Jehovah/Christ in His physical body. A big, big difference. One Moses the man acting for God under the supervision of His Son, Jehovah, whilst the promised prophet was actually Jehovah/Christ/Word/Son Himself doing the will of His Father. A lesson in obedience which we fail to learn, the Son can do nothing of Himself. He does what He is told to do. Why? Oh! Why? do we not follow His marvelous example, I often wonder?

"For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave me commandment WHAT I should say, and WHAT I should speak" (John 12:49).

He gave us commandments too, but do the likes of you and I and the rest obey them like He did?  I speak like a fool, of course we do???

Now remember Moses...Deu 18:17  "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.   'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you (Moses), and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Is it possible that I could forget Moses after this?  Believe me I never will. And as we have already seen, so He did and so it was dutifully executed by the only Person in the flesh, the Word/Christ/Jehovah/Son of God - Jesus Christ our Lord who possessed the power and ability to accomplish the will of His Father.  "I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."   (Rev.5:1-8).

Do you believe all this figurative language, Paul? I do and it makes sense and confirms all that I read between these sacred pages.

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)


Roy   UK (http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

[Molly]

The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

[Roy Monis]

I'm a life long, die hard Trinitarian.  But lately, as I've been considering it, I have to wonder.  Too much isn't adding up.  Just the preponderance of passages that speak of the Father alone as God have to make you stop and think. 

But, Pierac, I can't get over one thing (well, two really).  If Jesus is not Yaweh, then who do you say that he is?  We know he's not an angel.  Is he just a man chosen by God to be the Messiah?  What made this man able to live in perfect unity with God when no other man has ever been able to?  And if he is only a man, how is his blood sacrifice enough to cover the sins of the whole world?  How can he bring me into perfect union with the Divine Father if he, himself is not Divinity become human?

Hi! Pleroo

The idea of a Trinity is not feasible for the simple reason that we are told that Mary conceived by The Holy Spirit; "But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt.1:20-21). This makes the Holy Spirit the father of Jesus, but Jesus Himself never once acknowledged this, and repeatedly called the Father His Father. Moreover there is no mention anywhere in the Bible of a God the Holy Spirit. At the final consummation:  "For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." (1Cor.15 :27- 28). Even here there is no mention of a God the Holy Spirit.

As regards where Jehovah is concerned we are told He is the God of our ancestors and that it was this Jehovah who was the Rock that followed them from which they drank, and that this Rock was Christ. "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (1Cor.10:4)

What is an angel? ...An angel is a messenger, an ambassador, a representative, a spokesman, a servant of the Sovereign Almighty God the Father. John 1:1-3 tells us that the Word is from the very beginning in the Father and that the Word is the only begotten God (vs.18). So when the Word comes forth from the Father to obey His command and speak His word/logos, He is the Father's first Spokesman/Son/Ambassador/Angel/Jehovah/God who created all things and is the God of our ancestors in the wilderness and our God also, Jesus Christ the Son of God in the flesh who has now returned to the Father having started the process of doing His will.

Heresies abound, don't be deceived, antichrists are in plentiful supply these latter days.

(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1298/1298544e42yk3c624.gif)
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

[Molly]

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"..."Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).
John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.

And, what does Jesus say to them?  Hi, yes I am he, nice to meet you?


He names Simon, Cephas--Peter.  He tells Nathaniel that he is without guile, and makes this bold statement to them--calling himself the Son of Adam--


...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

--John 1



But the high priest goes nuts concerning Jesus' claim to be the Son of God.



61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

64Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

--Mark 14




It is clear the high priest knew Jesus was claiming divinity--hence the charge of blasphemy.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

If you are quoting a Scripture please keep to it as in the Scriptures and don't add to or take away from to suit your purpose. From which Bible is this quote taken from?

Joh 1:14  And the Word (Logos) was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (created) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the correct quote from the three Bibles that I have just for reference for people like you.
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (Jn.1:14) Where is the mention of the logos or the created (Paul inventions I do believe). We are interested in the search for truth not lies and deceit. And why the brackets and why the OF the Father when it's FROM the Father. it makes a big difference to the meaning.

Your interpretations are decidedly unreliable, brother, and you need to pay closer attention to the words.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

[Pleroo]

Hi! Pleroo

The idea of a Trinity is not feasible for the simple reason that we are told that Mary conceived by The Holy Spirit; "But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt.1:20-21). This makes the Holy Spirit the father of Jesus, but Jesus Himself never once acknowledged this, and repeatedly called the Father His Father. Moreover there is no mention anywhere in the Bible of a God the Holy Spirit. At the final consummation:  "For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." (1Cor.15 :27- 28). Even here there is no mention of a God the Holy Spirit.

It was questions about the Holy Spirit as a 3rd person of the Trinity that first made me start reconsidering the veracity of the doctrine.  And I'm still in the process of working through those questions, as well.

As regards where Jehovah is concerned we are told He is the God of our ancestors and that it was this Jehovah who was the Rock that followed them from which they drank, and that this Rock was Christ. "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (1Cor.10:4)

I see where it says that Jesus was that rock, but not where it says Jehovah was.  So, while I think that passage seems to pertain to the preexistance of Christ, I'm not sure that it necessariy proves that He is Jehovah.

What is an angel? ...An angel is a messenger, an ambassador, a representative, a spokesman, a servant of the Sovereign Almighty God the Father. John 1:1-3 tells us that the Word is from the very beginning in the Father and that the Word is the only begotten God (vs.18). So when the Word comes forth from the Father to obey His command and speak His word/logos, He is the Father's first Spokesman/Son/Ambassador/Angel/Jehovah/God who created all things and is the God of our ancestors in the wilderness and our God also, Jesus Christ the Son of God in the flesh who has now returned to the Father having started the process of doing His will.

I understand that angel can mean messenger and I should have been more precise in the way I worded what I said.  My belief is that Jesus is not one of the created heavenly beings that we refer to as angels.

Heresies abound, don't be deceived, antichrists are in plentiful supply these latter days.

I fervently pray that I will not be.  But if I had not put aside my fears about being deceived I would never have been brought to see what the Bible says about UR.  I feel I must also approach this subject with a mind that is open and I suppose that leaves me wide open to being deceived.  I'll have to trust that God can guard me.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Quite true!  But who was the God of our ancestors?  Was it not Jehovah?  And was it not Jehovah the Rock that followed them in the wilderness from which they drank? And is that Rock not Christ of the NT. "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (1Cor.10:4).

So the power that raised Jesus was the power of Christ/God/Jehovah from the Father that He possessed from conception.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Read the source sister. My God and Your God, My Father, and Your Father!  Yep, it's suppose to be in red, And it's red because Jesus said it! So go back and read your quote in context! This commandment have I received of my Father.

Where did you get this source from, please quote the Scripture?

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

[Pierac]

Hi! Paul

Read the source sister. My God and Your God, My Father, and Your Father!  Yep, it's suppose to be in red, And it's red because Jesus said it! So go back and read your quote in context! This commandment have I received of my Father.

Where did you get this source from, please quote the Scripture?

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Roy   UK

Sorry Roy, here's the verse

John  20:17  Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"


Paul

[Molly]

Hi! Paul

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Quite true!  But who was the God of our ancestors?  Was it not Jehovah?  And was it not Jehovah the Rock that followed them in the wilderness from which they drank? And is that Rock not Christ of the NT. "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (1Cor.10:4).

So the power that raised Jesus was the power of Christ/God/Jehovah from the Father that He possessed from conception.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

--Daniel 7





12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

--Revelation 1



John 1:36
And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

[rosered]

Hi! Brother rr

this helped me to see  more clearly

You have lost me, brother. See what more clearly?

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK  :boyheart: :boyheart: :boyheart:

Hi Roy you need the rest of the post LOL... hee hee  

      I have  made a  couple  here on this thread ..

  the NAME  OF THE WORD OF GOD is Jesus Christ

  SPIRIT AND TRUTH  IS GOD   I know thats a broad  statment

 but true  none the less  
and the HOLY SPIRIT IS THE WORD OF GOD /Jesus Christ  and the Father /God  working   within us
   this is my simple point on these matters  
hope that helps , them 2 or 3 posts  I made  were the  scripture [substance]  I have  gathered  this from as well as   Holy Spirit witness  
confirming this in my own heart  :)
God bless peace rr

[Pierac]

["No Jew---ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah
himself come as a baby."

That's one of the reasons they missed him.

They missed him because they wanted the Messiah only as a Savior King to rid them of Rome.

John 10 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


They also must have missed this prophecy, too—

Jesus corrects their mistake 3 verses later...

Joh 10:35  "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36  do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

And as you can see later in Chapter 19 they actually got the message and corrected their earlier mistake...

Joh 19:7  The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus was a very common name. So how many  "God with us" do you think there were?

Paul

[Molly]

Hi! Paul

Read the source sister. My God and Your God, My Father, and Your Father!  Yep, it's suppose to be in red, And it's red because Jesus said it! So go back and read your quote in context! This commandment have I received of my Father.

Where did you get this source from, please quote the Scripture?

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)
Roy   UK

Sorry Roy, here's the verse

John  20:17  Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"


Paul

What is the Father's name, Pierac?  Does Jesus ever call him by name?

[Roy Monis]

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again.  This commandment have I received of my Father.

Hi Molly,

The verse above is (John 10:18).  and if you read all of the verse it says  "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. how, and why did Jesus have this power? read the rest of the verse. This commandment have I received of my Father".  There is the answer.

Jesus also said "of mine own self I can do nothing". Jesus was flesh, a man, human, just like the rest of us. He was also the Son of God which made Him seperate from us. While Jesus was in the flesh he was powerless without God the Father, just like we are powerless without Christ.

CHB

Hi! CHB

Have we forgotten that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary with the Word/Son/Christ/logos/God in the body of the flesh - Jesus the man. He was in possession of that commandment so He had the power to raise Himself in accord with the authority from the Father. He could do nothing of Himself but the Father's word/logos which He was in possession of, raised Him. The very same logos that He used to create the universe and all that there is.

If I have a password for my documents, then using that password on any computer anywhere in the world will enable me to access my files. Very much the same thing, the password comes from the source. If I give it to my son then he will be able to do the same with it.

(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)

Roy   UK

[Molly]

And as you can see later in Chapter 19 they actually got the message and corrected their earlier mistake...

Joh 19:7  The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

well, if they have a law that he ought to die because he makes himself out to be the Son of God, then how do you justify your earlier statement that this is an accepted title for the Messiah?

In fact, they rightly perceived that he was claiming divinity--the penalty for which was death.


John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[Pierac]

Okay, what about Jesus' pre-existance?  If you've already covered this, I didn't see it. I have seen your answer to the idea that all things were not created through him (although, so far, that seems to me to be your weakest argument).  But when he says that before Abraham was, I am, doesn't that indicate he existed before him?  That may not indicate that Jesus is Yaweh, but it does seem to indicate something beyond mere mortal man.  Again, he's not an angel so there's got to be something more here. 

And, in spite of what you've said, John 1 and Col 1 still seem to pretty clearly point to him as having been the one through whom all things were created.  (While much of what you're saying makes sense to me, I've tried to see that particular part of the argument from your point of view and it's simply not sitting right.)  Again, even if the Son is not Yaweh these things indicate he is something beyond a man, even a man annointed by God.

Ok Pleroo, It's going to take more than one post to cover this. No problem as I already have the data at hand...


Christ the Head of the New Creation

The various popular English translation are at odds as to whether the Son is "the first-born over all creation" (as in the NIV and NK JV), thus first in rank, or whether he is "the firstborn of all creation" (which reflects a literal translation of the genitive case, as in the KJV, RV and NASB), meaning first in time, which would refer to Christ being the first-created being of creation.

We evidently need the wider context to determine which nuance fits best. It is clear that Paul continues his line of thought in the next verse, as he uses the conjunction "for": "For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities- all things have been created through him and for him" (v.16). Jesus never claimed credit for the original Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth. He was in no doubt that the universe was God's handiwork.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Remember Jesus has a God"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6) 

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after "the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ's exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ's] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus' obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).
It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man.  This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom,  Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52.  God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else. 

Heb 5:6  "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."  5  In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8  Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid.  Most fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments

NASB Joh 8:42  Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49  "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

There is no God in the flesh hybrid (Theos aner) in these verses.

If Jesus is already God in the flesh then He can not have a God because it would be two Gods not one. Yet, scripture clearly tell us he does have a God, both before and after His resurrection.  Philippians 4:20; Ephesians 4:6;  John 20:17;  Matthew 27:46; Revelation 3:12;  Revelation 3:2.

One issue is God can not die. So if Jesus was God then he would have had to pretend to die and thus there would not be any forgiveness of sin because he really didn't die. 

Let's see who can forgive sins.

Mat 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

Mat 9:6  "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

Mar 2:7  "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 20:21  So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22  And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the Holy Spirit. 23  "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Jesus never forgave sins before He was anointed with God's Spirit.  And now the Apostles have the ability to forgive sins, once again only after Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. The Apostles are now Agents of Jesus the Christ and "have authority on earth to forgive sins".  How? Because as the Father has sent Me, I also send you


Paul