Can you explain?

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

It would take me a lifetime to answer all your lengthy post, and I don't have that much time to spare so I'll just pick on one quote.

"Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him."  (Ex.23:20-21).

I don't follow you. In what way is the angel, messenger, not the Son of God, Jehovah? all heavenly bodies are angels, some ministering, some archangels for special occasions and on this important mission a leader, His Son, God, still an angel but of lower rank than the Father. "For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? (Heb,1:5). He is the only begotten Son, the leader of the pack as it were, with the most important of all the Father's messengers. The Son of God/Jehovah the angel of the OT, CHRIST. "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (1Cor.10:4).

You tell us to read the Scriptures and fail to follow your own advice. Where do you get all your heresies from? From your deep study the Hebrew language is it?

You intellectuals corrupted the Babylon that we have come out of, are you so blood thirsty that you want to corrupt us in our new habitat as well?

I hope we who have heard the voice of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and Come Out of Babylon, heed the past mistakes and keep clear of the all intellectuals like you and keep the Body of Christ pure for once..

WE want Jesus Christ the Son of God/Jehovah/Word/Leader. "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ." (Matt.23:10).

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)
Roy   UK

[Molly]

I don't follow you. In what way is the angel, messenger, not the Son of God, Jehovah? all heavenly bodies are angels, some ministering, some archangels for special occasions and on this important mission a leader, His Son, God, still an angel but of lower rank than the Father. "For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? (Heb,1:5). He is the only begotten Son, the leader of the pack as it were, with the most important of all the Father's messengers. The Son of God/Jehovah the angel of the OT, CHRIST. "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (1Cor.10:4).

Hi Roy, Can you explain to me what you just said here?  I can't understand your wording.

[Roy Monis]

I don't follow you. In what way is the angel, messenger, not the Son of God, Jehovah? all heavenly bodies are angels, some ministering, some archangels for special occasions and on this important mission a leader, His Son, God, still an angel but of lower rank than the Father. "For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? (Heb,1:5). He is the only begotten Son, the leader of the pack as it were, with the most important of all the Father's messengers. The Son of God/Jehovah the angel of the OT, CHRIST. "...and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ." (1Cor.10:4).

Hi Roy, Can you explain to me what you just said here?  I can't understand your wording.

Hi! Molly

It will be a pleasure to explain what I mean.

From my understanding of the various stories in the Bible I gather that God is Spirit and like Him His Son and all the heavenly bodies are spirit. The Father uses these heavenly bodies as messengers in a varying range of importance as we see in Revelation. The highest ranking angels are the archangels Michael and Gabriel who were sent on the important missions, such as, to the prophets of old and Daniel in the OT, and the news of the birth of John the Baptist to Zacharias and the birth of Jesus to Mary. But for the awesome tasks of creation, leading His chosen people out of bondage, and the salvation of all mankind there was only one messenger who was able to accomplish those tasks as the leader and that was His own only begotten Son/Word/Christ/God by right of birth.

Of all the heavenly bodies His Son/Word/Christ/Leader was the only One capable of guaranteed success in the accomplishment of such awesome tasks since only God has the power to create something out of nothing. "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ." (Matt.23:10).

I can assure you there are Scriptures, and I'm sure you are aware of them, that can prove all the points I have mentioned.

I hope that helps?

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy    UK

[Pierac]

Hi! Paul

We are taking here about His Son who is also God by right of birth.

Then so is Adam, the Son of God. But everyone would agree, Adam is not God.

Pray tell, what does Son of God mean?

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let's see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God"/ denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of "son"  does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God"  (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son's solidarity  with God"  (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God" (Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."
This is the meaning of the title "Son of God."  Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"... "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"... "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"..."Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).
John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.

'Tis true what you say, but who is Jesus? "I and the Father are one."  (Jn.10:30). ONE GOD.

John 17:22  "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

One God? Or one in Mind and Spirit.

Paul

[rosered]

 


  this helped me to see  more clearly 


2Sa 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that [were] with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth [between] the cherubims.


Use in the Bible: Jehovah and Elohim occur with Sabaoth over 285 times. It is most frequently used in Jeremiah and Isaiah. Jehovah Sabaoth is first used in 1Sa 1:3.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 1865a, 1865b

Strong's Reference: 6635

Jehovah Sabaoth in the Septuagint: kurios sabaôth — the Lord of hosts (sabaôth: Gr. transliteration of Heb. "hosts")

Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Sabaoth (se bâ'ôt) means "armies" or "hosts." Jehovah Sabaoth can be translated as "The Lord of Armies" (1Sa 1:3). This name denotes His universal sovereignty over every army, both spiritual and earthly. The Lord of Hosts is the king of all heaven and earth. (Psa 24:9-10; Psa 84:3; Isa 6:5).

Further references of the name Jehovah Sabaoth in the Old Testament: 1Sa 1:11; 1Sa 17:45; 2Sa 6:18; 2Sa 7:27; 1Ki 19:14; 2Ki 3:14; 1Ch 11:9; Psa 24:10; Psa 48:8; Psa 80:4; Psa 80:19; Psa 84:3; Isa 1:24; Isa 3:15; Isa 5:16; Isa 6:5; Isa 9:19; Isa 10:26; Isa 14:22; Jer 9:15; Jer 48:1; Hsa 12:5; Amo 3:13; Mic 4:4; Nah 3:5; Hag 2:6; Zec 1:3; Mal 1:6; Hab 2:13; Zep 2:9 

  also read all of Jude  here is  14It was of these people, moreover, that Enoch in the seventh [generation] from Adam prophesied when he said, Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

    15To execute judgment upon all and to convict all the impious (unholy ones) of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed [in such an] ungodly [way], and of all the severe (abusive, jarring) things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

  for convience
  God bless peace rosered

[Nathan]

One God? Or one in Mind and Spirit.

For me, I am a spirit, that has a soul, that lives in a body . .you can't separate one from the other without affecting all three .  . . I see God to be the same way.  He is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you can't divide one from the other two without bringing disorder to all three.

[Pierac]

Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree.

Moses himself said:  "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15).

In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16).

The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him" (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy.

For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly  not God but a human being.  The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

Jesus claimed to be this Messiah

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise"

"For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave me commandment WHAT I should say, and WHAT I should speak" (John 12:49).

Now remember Moses...
Deu 18:17  "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.   'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you (Moses), and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Is this not what Jesus did and said? This is not talking about sending "God in the flesh"!

Generally when Trinitarians say "God," they mean the combination of all three persons, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If they want to refer to one specific member of the Trinity they will use the corresponding name such as "the Son" etc.

Okay, one set up verse. Trinitarians will agree that there is only one God who is called Yahweh. The problem is that they include Jesus as a member of Yahweh. But for now, let's agree that the only God is Yahweh.

Isaiah 45:5 – "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

This is pretty simple. YHWH is the ONLY God.  So far, so good, I think we all can agree.

Exodus 3:15 – "Thus shall you say to the Israelites: The LORD (YHWH), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you." Okay, the God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the LORD (YHWH).

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = YHWH.  Again, we can all agree

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Does this verse imply that Jesus is the God of Abraham etc.? Of course not! Just read it. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No! He glorified his servant Jesus. This is not difficult. Jesus is obviously not the God of Abraham etc. He is the God of Abraham's SERVANT. Who is the God of Abraham? YHWH. And YHWH is who? The ONLY God.  So Jesus is not God? Of course not. He is God's anointed. Look...

Acts 10:38 – "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Who anointed Jesus? It doesn't say "the" Father anointed Jesus, it says GOD. You can obviously see that Jesus is not the God that anointed him. If I said, "The king anointed Tom,"  would you think that it meant that Tom is the king? Of course not.  Jesus is the servant whom God anointed to do his will. That is the whole purpose of anointing someone, to give them the wisdom and power that they will need in order to serve God. Does it make sense to you that God would anoint God with God? Let's look at a Messianic prophecy in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 61:1 – "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD (YHWH) has anointed me."

By reading this verse it is plainly clear that the person who is being anointed is not YHWH. YHWH is anointing this individual. Now watch how Jesus uses this verse to refer to himself. Jesus uses this verse to say that he is the one that the Scripture spoke about. That he is the one whom YHWH has anointed. Who is YHWH by the way? That's right, the ONLY God.

Luke 4:18-21 – "He (Jesus) unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me,'...He (Jesus) said to them, 'Today this Scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."

Okay now, don't freak out, this is simple. Look at Isaiah 61:1, YHWH anoints someone other than YHWH. Jesus in Luke claims that he is that person whom YHWH has anointed. Next!

1 Cor. 8:6 – "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord (This Lord is not a translation of YHWH, it is kyrios i.e. master, king etc.) Jesus Christ."

It doesn't get any easier than this. Who is the one God? The FATHER! That's it, period! The Father is the only one who is considered God. Jesus is our Lord (master, king). You will always see that the only one who is referred to as God is the Father. From the passage above, do you honestly read that and come away with the fact that Jesus is the one God? It is obvious that the one Lord is not the one God. Only the Father is God. It never says, "Peace from God the Father and God the Son." Why not? Didn't the Apostles know that the Son is God? Not even close! Look at the following:

1 Cor. 1:3 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Cor. 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Philippians 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

1 Thessalonians 3:13 – "To be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus."

2 Thessalonians 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Philippians 4:20 – To our God and Father, glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Collosians 1:2 – "Peace from God our Father."

Ephesians 4:6 – "One God and Father of all."

1 Timothy 1:2 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."

2 Timothy 1:2 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."

Galatians 1:3 "Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

So who is the ONLY one who is referred to as God? That's right, the Father. There is no way that in these sentences you can come out with the idea that Jesus is God. They always say, "peace from God AND, I repeat, AND the Lord Jesus Christ." They are separate individuals. Jesus Christ is not considered by any stretch of the imagination, "God" by these authors.

If I said,
"Peace from George our president and the chief of staff Joshua."

"Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (for comparison)

Is there anyway that you would read the verse above and come away thinking that Joshua, the chief of staff is the president? No way! But wait, it gets even better.

In these next verses, Jesus, who many claim is fully God at ALL times, has a God. How can this be? These must all be typos.

1 Peter 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Cor. 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Cor. 11:31 – "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus knows, he who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."

Revelation 1:6 – "Who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

Ephesians 1:3 – "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 1:17 – "That the God of our Lord, the Father of glory."

Wow! The Apostles must have messed up here? Don't they know that Jesus is God? How can God have a God? He can't. That's why when I ask this question to pastors the only answer they can give me is that it's a mystery. Do you know how naïve and gullible that sounds?

These verses above are not profound theological statements. They are for the most part just greetings. No one has ever disputed these verses. Just read them!   "Yes!" Read them and ask why, it reads God and Father of the Lord Jesus over and over again.

The Messiah is supposed to have a God because he needs to be anointed by God in order to do wonders and signs on behalf of God. Let's look at Micah 5:3 which is a Messianic prophecy:

Micah 5:3 – "He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majestic name of the LORD, HIS GOD."

The Christ will have a God? Yes! Who will it be? Look at the verse above, YHWH. Does Jesus know that he is supposed to have a God? Of course he knows! Look below, these verses are all Jesus speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 - "For I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

So Jesus did know that he has a God. As sure as bees buzz. Jesus really needed his God in order to resurrect.

Hebrews 13:20 – "May the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant."

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Who raised the great shepherd from the dead? The God of peace, the God of our ancestors (which we covered earlier). The Trinitarian alternative is that God raised himself from the dead. But how can God raise himself if he is dead. Then God was not really dead. For that matter, how can you kill God?

Do you honestly read that verse and think that the great shepherd is God? Remember Micah? The shepherd has a God called YHWH.

Micah 5:3 – "He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD (YHWH), in the majestic name of the LORD, HIS GOD."

By the way, what happened to the Holy Spirit in all these greetings? I guess he must have been the least favorite of the Apostles because he's not mentioned even once in those verses. I wonder why?

[Nathan]

In the same way you are crucified with Christ . . .it's a mystery to the mind, but that doesn't make it untrue.  I am dead, but yet shall I live.  My spirit brings life to by mind, to my body even.  Just because Jesus manifested in the flesh, doesn't mean he was separated from God.  Rather than focus on the dividing of Christ, perhaps it's more beneficial to focus on the oneness between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father because they are . .not two, but one.  It's not a bad thing to disagree, the body of Christ is full of opposites . .it has to be . . .otherwise there would be no balance.  Ever see someone go through life with two left arms?  One must be opposite of the other for balance to manifest.  Unity is not about being conformed to one line of thought, it's more about laying down myself in order to allow others to come in.  In this way, everyone benefits and everyone grows.

[Molly]

If I said,
"Peace from George our president and the chief of staff Joshua."

"Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (for comparison)

Titus 1:4
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.


This identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour.

But, look what YHWH says--


Isaiah 43:3
For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.


Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.



YHWH says He is the Saviour.  How does that work, Pierac?




Psalm 106:21
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;

[Molly]

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

Who raised the great shepherd from the dead? The God of peace, the God of our ancestors (which we covered earlier). The Trinitarian alternative is that God raised himself from the dead. But how can God raise himself if he is dead. Then God was not really dead. For that matter, how can you kill God?

Do you honestly read that verse and think that the great shepherd is God? Remember Micah? The shepherd has a God called YHWH.

Who is raising people from the dead on the last day? Jesus.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Who raised Jesus from the dead?  Jesus.

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again.  This commandment have I received of my Father.


You say the God of ancestors, the God of peace raised the great Shepherd from the dead.

Who is that?

...and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

--Isa 9:6

[CHB]

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again.  This commandment have I received of my Father.

Hi Molly,

The verse above is (John 10:18).  and if you read all of the verse it says  "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. how, and why did Jesus have this power? read the rest of the verse. This commandment have I received of my Father".  There is the answer.

Jesus also said "of mine own self I can do nothing". Jesus was flesh, a man, human, just like the rest of us. He was also the Son of God which made Him seperate from us. While Jesus was in the flesh he was powerless without God the Father, just like we are powerless without Christ.

CHB

[Pierac]

on Today at 05:00:11 PM

Who is raising people from the dead on the last day? Jesus.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?  Jesus.

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again.  This commandment have I received of my Father.

You say the God of ancestors, the God of peace raised the great Shepherd from the dead.

Who is that?

Molly, slow down and read what you just posted!

18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again.  This commandment have I received of my Father.

Read the source sister. My God and Your God, My Father, and Your Father!  Yep, it's suppose to be in red, And it's red because Jesus said it! So go back and read your quote in context! This commandment have I received of my Father.

Moses himself said:  "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15).

In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16).

The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him" (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy.

For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly  not God but a human being.  The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.

Jesus claimed to be this Messiah

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise"

"For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave me commandment WHAT I should say, and WHAT I should speak" (John 12:49).

Now remember Moses...
Deu 18:17  "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.   'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you (Moses), and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Is this not what Jesus did and said? This is not talking about sending "God in the flesh"!

So Molly, Who raised Jesus? Jesus Himself or The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? What saith the scriptures?

Act 5:30  "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Jesus is raising no one, with out the permission of His father.

Joh 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Yes, Jesus will raise them but who's the source of it all? Now ask your self, How does Jesus raise them, if he can not raise Himself?

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Do you see it now? Who is it that is giving Jesus the power to raise the dead? Yes, Molly His Father, and our Father! Jesus' God and our God!

[Pleroo]

I'm a life long, die hard Trinitarian.  But lately, as I've been considering it, I have to wonder.  Too much isn't adding up.  Just the preponderance of passages that speak of the Father alone as God have to make you stop and think. 

But, Pierac, I can't get over one thing (well, two really).  If Jesus is not Yaweh, then who do you say that he is?  We know he's not an angel.  Is he just a man chosen by God to be the Messiah?  What made this man able to live in perfect unity with God when no other man has ever been able to?  And if he is only a man, how is his blood sacrifice enough to cover the sins of the whole world?  How can he bring me into perfect union with the Divine Father if he, himself is not Divinity become human?

[Pierac]

this helped me to see  more clearly 


2Sa 6:2 And David arose, and went with all the people that [were] with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth [between] the cherubims.


Use in the Bible: Jehovah and Elohim occur with Sabaoth over 285 times. It is most frequently used in Jeremiah and Isaiah. Jehovah Sabaoth is first used in 1Sa 1:3.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 1865a, 1865b

Strong's Reference: 6635

Jehovah Sabaoth in the Septuagint: kurios sabaôth — the Lord of hosts (sabaôth: Gr. transliteration of Heb. "hosts")

Meaning and Derivation: Jehovah is translated as "The Existing One" or "Lord." The chief meaning of Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew word Havah meaning "to be" or "to exist." It also suggests "to become" or specifically "to become known" - this denotes a God who reveals Himself unceasingly. Sabaoth (se bâ'ôt) means "armies" or "hosts." Jehovah Sabaoth can be translated as "The Lord of Armies" (1Sa 1:3). This name denotes His universal sovereignty over every army, both spiritual and earthly. The Lord of Hosts is the king of all heaven and earth. (Psa 24:9-10; Psa 84:3; Isa 6:5).

Further references of the name Jehovah Sabaoth in the Old Testament: 1Sa 1:11; 1Sa 17:45; 2Sa 6:18; 2Sa 7:27; 1Ki 19:14; 2Ki 3:14; 1Ch 11:9; Psa 24:10; Psa 48:8; Psa 80:4; Psa 80:19; Psa 84:3; Isa 1:24; Isa 3:15; Isa 5:16; Isa 6:5; Isa 9:19; Isa 10:26; Isa 14:22; Jer 9:15; Jer 48:1; Hsa 12:5; Amo 3:13; Mic 4:4; Nah 3:5; Hag 2:6; Zec 1:3; Mal 1:6; Hab 2:13; Zep 2:9 

  also read all of Jude  here is  14It was of these people, moreover, that Enoch in the seventh [generation] from Adam prophesied when he said, Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)

    15To execute judgment upon all and to convict all the impious (unholy ones) of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed [in such an] ungodly [way], and of all the severe (abusive, jarring) things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

  for convience
  God bless peace rosered

Allow me to help you with this word Elohim!

Elohim

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings.  Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince,"  the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God."  Take another instance.  In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron.

Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh."  No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7).  Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: "Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular.  In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies.  The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives.  The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood.  Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43.  After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being!  The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty."  Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor.  The plural acted as a means of intensification:  Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural.  From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament.  The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Peace,
Paul

[Pierac]

But, Pierac, I can't get over one thing (well, two really).  If Jesus is not Yaweh, then who do you say that he is?  We know he's not an angel.  Is he just a man chosen by God to be the Messiah?  What made this man able to live in perfect unity with God when no other man has ever been able to?  And if he is only a man, how is his blood sacrifice enough to cover the sins of the whole world?  How can he bring me into perfect union with the Divine Father if he, himself is not Divinity become human?

No my friend, Jesus is no random man, as Adam is no random man. These two are the Sons of God. Both chosen to fulfill God's purpose! (Luke 9:35)

1Co 15:45   So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

In order to weed out the tradition of  men when reading this verse, you must note the word "Became."  This verse does not read "was" as some may see.  Jesus the second Adam Became  (some texts read "was made" but you get the idea) a life-giving Spirit.  How you might ask? By God of course!

Jesus is the promised Messiah (that means "anointed one" in Hebrew or "Christ" in the Greek).  Jesus is the Son of God conceived in Mary's womb.  Gabriel even tells us why Jesus is call the Son of God!

Luk 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy
Child shall be called the Son of God.

Stop and read this verse again but this time note the phrase "and for that reason"  Yep, for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God

Wait, what is that reason?  Because Jesus is really God?  No, but because  "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you"  So  where does anyone get the idea that Jesus must be "God" born as a baby?

Did not anyone listen to Jesus or read Paul?

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit."  The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories.  What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man"  (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image.  We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness.  God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion.

One must ask why do you believe what you believe?

Did you formally believe in hell because others told you to believe in hell? If so why do you believe Jesus is God? Is it because others told you to believe? What saith the scriptures?

Here is a list of the people who claim that Jesus is the Son of God, and then those who claim that he is God the Son. I will keep it simple and not list the verses that claim that Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of Man, or the king of Israel. All these titles are synonymous.

Son of God

God Himself refers to Jesus as His Son: Mt 2: 15, 3:17, 17: 5, Mk 1: 11, 9: 7, Lk 9: 35

Jesus says that he is the Son of God: Mt 26: 63, Lk 22: 70, Jn 5: 25, 10: 36, 19: 7

The angel Gabriel says Jesus is the Son of God: Luke 1: 35

Peter says that Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 16: 16

John the Apostle says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 20: 31, 1 Jn 3: 23, 4: 15, 5:5

All the Apostles say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 14: 33, Jn 6: 69

John the Baptist says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 34

John Mark says Jesus is the Son of God: Mk 1: 1

Paul says Jesus is the Son of God: Acts 9: 20, Rom 1: 4, 1 Cor 1: 9, 2 Cor 1:19, Gal 2: 20, Heb 4: 14

Nathanael says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 49

Demons say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 8: 29, Mk 3: 11, 5: 7, Lk 4: 41, 8: 28

The Centurion says Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 27: 54, Mk 15: 39

Now, let's look at all the massive scripture that teaches Jesus is God the Son!

God the Son

Oops Nobody.

So why do you believe Jesus is "God the Son?"  Maybe the same reason you once believed in Hell? Don't let me or anyone else tell you what to believe, seek the Spirit and search the scriptures for yourself!


Paul

[riverman]

Hi Paul,

Perhaps you are right that there isn't a verse phrased as you presented; "God the Son"

But on the other hand there is no verse that calls Christ "The Second Begotten Son Of God" either.

We don't have a verse that calls Adam the First Begotten Son.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Jn 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

There is more to add to the following but what Paul wrote here sums it up for me;

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:

Col 1:17  And he is before all things and by him all things consist.

Peace,

RM

[rosered]

  Hi Paul I knew  that it could mean God , or gods (el-o-heem')

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God
Psa 82:6  I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
God, Judge, Creator

Use in the Bible: : In the Old Testament Elohim occurs over 2000 times. Elohim is first used in Gen 1:1.

Variant spellings: None

TWOT Reference: 93c

Strong's Reference: 0430

Elohim in the Septuagint: theos — the standard Greek word for god, "a transcendent being who exercises extraordinary control in human affairs or is responsible for bestowal of unusual benefits" (BDAG). It specifically refers to the monotheistic God of Israel.

Meaning and Derivation: Elohim is translated as "God." The derivation of the name Elohim is debatable to most scholars. Some believe it derived from 'êl which, in turn, originates from the root word, 'wl (which means "strong"). Others think that Elohim is derived from another two roots: 'lh (which means "god") in conjunction with 'elôah (which means "fear"). And still others presume that both 'êl and Elohim come from 'eloah.

   this proof is a matter of  faith , I have seen it be said  Jesus CHrist is the WORD OF GOD mainfested/revealed   SPIRIT &TRUTH   
as Jesus Christ told us  that the Father seeks those to worrship Him in Spirit & Truth  and  I believe that Is Jesus Christ   the name
   that God Gave us to  to be saved by with and through 

   I looked into the greek  for the old  psalms calling them eloim

and the new it is theos gr 2316

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

2) the Godhead, trinity

a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity

b) Christ, the second person of the trinity

c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

3) spoken of the only and true God

a) refers to the things of God

b) his counsels, interests, things due to him

4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

a) God's representative or viceregent

1) of magistrates and judges


Jhn 10:30  I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

  I  believe this is just  me though
   that the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER & THE SON IS the Holy Spirit working
  the  way Paul Speaks here makes me think that and the way and titus 3 ;5 regeration   by the SEED /WORD OF GOD to grow  within our hearts
   making the Christ /annoiting  the very hope of glory to God  within you as well ..

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

  IT was  when  Jesus Christ come  back from the realm of the dead   being the Lord also of the dead  that He breathed on them  and they received the Holy Ghost/Spirit   the POWER  from on High .. to retain or remit sin   making them apart of  alos the LIVING  BODY OF CHRIST ..in the place Im thinking of

 
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  

  just  some  reasons I think  that the SPIRIT amd Truth  are  the very power in the WORD OF GOD /Jesus Christ the first begotten from the dead

  I hope this did not confuse the matter  even more 
God bless &peace rosered

[Pierac]

Hi Paul,

Perhaps you are right that there isn't a verse phrased as you presented; "God the Son"

But on the other hand there is no verse that calls Christ "The Second Begotten Son Of God" either.

We don't have a verse that calls Adam the First Begotten Son.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Jn 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

There is more to add to the following but what Paul wrote here sums it up for me;

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:

Col 1:17  And he is before all things and by him all things consist.

Peace,

RM

Hi Joe, I'm trying to post the truth and keep the peace at the same time. Not so easy if your truth does not alway agree with others! I enjoy your scripture post but have no idea what it means to you? For example...

Joh 1:14  And the Word (Logos) was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten (created) of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So you just posted a verse that reads the "Logos" (God's "plan", "internal reasoning")  was made flesh and dwelt among us. Yep, just like your logos to have a child was made flesh the day your child was born, and dwelt among you, So does that make your child 'you', just because "it" was your logos in the beginning?  No.  Now we need to look at the word Begotten! Begotten means you have a beginning! God is eternal and has no beginning! Even the logos has a beginning! (Yep, In the beginning!) So, again, God has no beginning!  If one wants to get really silly they can always go with "eternally begotten"  Now, that's a real oxymoron!   :thumbsup:

Next you posted... Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Again, I'm not sure what your saying. Are you saying Jesus is not God because people actually saw him? (I'll be fair, Probably not)! Here's that darn begotten word again!
Well, all this verse is saying is that Jesus the "begotten son" hath declared the Father. (You will note it's only the Father too! No Holy Spirit or Trinity being declared?)

Next you posted... Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Well, you more or less supported my understanding! I believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and not God, So what does scripture have to say of my belief? How do I stand? Let's see...

1Jo 4:15  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. and  1Jo 5:10  The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.

Well, I believe Jesus is "the Son of God" and "the testimony that God has given concerning His Son".  I would suggest some here think Jesus is God and "has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son"?

There is more to add to the following but what Paul wrote here sums it up for me;

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

If I said I had an image of a Porsche in my driveway, how many of you would be impressed. Remember, we are not to worship images!  (John 4:23)

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:

Read this verse again, (IN Heaven) and (upON the Earth) This is not a creation verse, but one of thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers! All given by God the Father! Just look at all the adjectives next to Jesus name! (Given, granted, appointed, heir, chosen, etc..)

So back to my original point, if you use scripture, tell me what it means to you! 
Paul

[Molly]

To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy.

Now, let's look at all the massive scripture that teaches Jesus is God the Son!

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

--Romans 1


8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

---Col 2


Pierac, have you answered my question about the Saviour, yet? If you did, I didn't see it.

How can Jesus be the Saviour, how can there be no other name by which we will be saved, if the LORD God says he is the Saviour and there is none beside him?


9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead...


John 14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

[Pierac]

To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy.

Now, let's look at all the massive scripture that teaches Jesus is God the Son!

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

--Romans 1


8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead...

Yes, I agree! This is what being anointed means!

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Now reading this verse, tell me who preformed the miracles and wonders and signs? Was it Jesus or God which performed through him? 

"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. (Act 10:38)

There is a big difference between actually being God and having God with you!



Ok Molly, to your question, and sorry as I did miss it earlier!

Pierac, have you answered my question about the Saviour, yet? If you did, I didn't see it.

How can Jesus be the Saviour, how can there be no other name by which we will be saved, if the LORD God says he is the Saviour and there is none beside him?

Is God the only Savior?

I imagine by now you may be arguing with me and saying something like this: Well, if Jesus is not God in human flesh what you do say to the Scriptures that say only God can save?  After all, God says, "I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no Savior besides me" (Isaiah 40 3:11).  If Jesus is not God and there are two saviors!  And this is something the Bible here clearly excludes.

We have already seen a strong argument against the idea that God became man in order to redeem us is that there is not one single O.T.  prophecy that supports it.  Not one verse foretells that God himself was going to become a man in order to save us.  The opposite is the case.  The prophets predicted a human being who would under God's anointing Spirit rescue us.

Wherein lies the solution?  Ah, let's now read this through a Hebrew understanding and see what a difference it makes.  Remember that dictum the Jews had about the law of agency where "the agent is as the principal himself"?  It applies right here.

Let's go back to Exodus 23.  Remember that I used this chapter earlier to illustrate the Hebrew law of agency.  We saw that the angel of the Lord acted in God's stead.  What the angel did and said was really what God himself did and said, for "My name is in him" (v. 21).  In verse 23 Jehovah explained, "For My angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivities and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them."  The angel was the instrument through whom God destroyed the enemies.

Now let's proceed on in the chapter.  God says to the Israelites, "I will send my terror ahead of you I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.  And I will send hornets ahead of you, that they may drive out the Hivities, the Canaanites, and the Hittites before you" (v. 27-28).

To our understanding this sounds as if the LORD himself is going to do the work.  But when we come to verse 31: "I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you."  So God expects the Israelites to drive their enemies out.  Is there a contradiction here?  Will God Himself drive out their enemies or will the Israelites do it?  We note the principle again and again.  Got says He will act when in fact He is going to empower his angels and his people to do the work.

This kind of talk has a thorough Hebrew feel about it.  Actions that are directly ascribed to God are in fact carried out by his commissioned agents.  Take another instance: "in the LORD he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam" (2 Kings 14:27).
Once again we observe the clear distinction between God who is the ultimate Author of deliverance and his appointed agent who in this case was King Jeroboam.  Or take this verse: "therefore you did deliver them into the hands of the oppressors who oppressed them.  But when they cry to You in the time of their distress, You did hear from heaven, and according to Your great compassion You did give them deliverers who delivered them from the hand of their it oppressors" (Nehemiah 9:27).

Graeser,  the author of One God and One Lord, p.363. Writes:

God, Christ and others are referred to as "saviors," but that clearly does not make them identical.  The term "Savior" is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated as "deliverer."  This in and of itself shows that modern translators have a Trinitarian bias that was not in the original languages.  The only reason to translate the same word as "Savior" when it applies to God or Christ, but as "deliverer" when it applies to men, is to make the terms seem unique to God and Jesus when in fact it is not.  This is a good example of how the actual meaning of Scriptures can be obscured if the translators are not careful or if they are theologically biased.

Is often been argued that the very name Jesus, which means "Yahweh saves," prove Jesus is Jehovah because "he will save his people from their sins" (Matt 1:21).  But the logic is not consistently applied because the O.T. name Joshua means "Yahweh saves."  I have never yet heard someone who believes in the deity of Christ argue that Joshua was God in the flesh.  We know that the O.T. Joshua was God appointed man to deliver Israel.  As Joshua and Israel went forth in obedience to his word God save them.  Just so, in the matter of our salvation, God sent forth his son into battle.  Through Jesus God has saved us. This is why both God and Jesus are called Savior. But the Bible never loses sight of the fact that God the Father is the ultimate Author of our salvation through (dia) his son.

This same line of reasoning applies to the healing of the paralytic in Mark 2. This is one of the most commonly appealed to Scriptures that allegedly proves that Jesus must be God, because "only God can forgive sins" (v.7).  When Jesus pronounced the man forgiven/healed, the Pharisees say that Jesus is "blaspheming" because he is claiming to be God.  But a little careful attention to detail will show that Jesus is not claiming deity.  He is rather claiming "authority." He says, "But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (v.10).  The parallel account in Matthew's report is that once the people saw Jesus healed a paralytic, "they were filled with awe, and glorified God,who had given such authority to men" ( Matt 9:8).  We note that Jesus is claiming to be "the Son of Man," that is, the human Messiah, with a God given right to pronounce forgiveness.  Not too much later Jesus invested other men-his apostles-with the same authority to forgive sins: "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; he to retain the sins of any, they have been retained" (John 20:23).  If only God can forgive sins, then God and Jesus and the apostles are all God!  Besides, there is no teaching anywhere in the Bible that says only God can forgive.  Even Christians are commanded to forgive each other sin (Eph.  4:32; Col. 3:13).  The fact that the Pharisees say that only God can forgive sins does not make this an established Biblical doctrine.  The Pharisees often had wrong doctrine and were often corrected by our Lord Jesus.  This was one such occasion.

Those who believe that Jesus can only be our Savior if he is God sometimes appeal to the prophecy from Jeremiah 23: (In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely; and this is his name by which he will be called, 'The LORD our righteousness'" (Jer. 23:6).
Does this not say that the coming Savior will be "The LORD our righteousness," that is, God himself?  This is easily answered when we note that a few chapters later we have this prophecy in Jeremiah 33: "in those days Judah shall be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she shall be called: the LORD is our righteousness' (v.16). Here the city of Jerusalem is given the very same title as the coming redeemer earlier.  I have never yet heard anyone argue that the city of Jerusalem must also be God himself because it bears the same title as Jehovah.  Hebrew understanding is needed to avoid the confusion.

This is why it is fallacious to reason that because Jesus is called the "king of kings and the Lord of Lords" (Rev. 19:16) he must necessarily be Almighty God Himself.  The fact that Artaxerxes is called "king of kings" and that God himself calls Nebuchadnezzar "king of kings" does not put these men in the same league as Messiah Jesus, nor mean they have the same nature as him.  The designation "king of kings" is obviously a very Hebrew way of speaking that has nothing to do with the equivalency of nature.  The Hebrews could also speak of a "servant of servants," which simply means to the lowest of the low (Gen 9:25).  In the book of Daniel God addresses Nebuchadnezzar: "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength, and the glory" (Dan. 2:37).

In the same Hebrew fashion, when Scriptures designate Jesus Christ as "the king of kings, and the Lord of Lords" the message conveyed is that God has also given him the Kingdom, the power, the strength, and the glory of the Age to Come. Equality of being with the God who gives the Kingdom does not come into the equation, for either Nebuchadnezzar or Jesus.  If, as already noted, to share the same nomenclature as God does not prove literal identity with God himself, the same holds true for the sharing of the same titles.  Whilst Jesus may share the title "king of kings and Lord of Lords" with God his Father, there is one title reserved uniquely for the Father God.  No other individual, including the Lord Jesus, is ever called by the title "God of gods" (Deut.  10:17).  This title, as well as "the Lord God" (Rev. 1:8), is always reserved for the one true God, who is the Father.


Paul

[Pleroo]

Okay, what about Jesus' pre-existance?  If you've already covered this, I didn't see it. I have seen your answer to the idea that all things were not created through him (although, so far, that seems to me to be your weakest argument).  But when he says that before Abraham was, I am, doesn't that indicate he existed before him?  That may not indicate that Jesus is Yaweh, but it does seem to indicate something beyond mere mortal man.  Again, he's not an angel so there's got to be something more here. 

And, in spite of what you've said, John 1 and Col 1 still seem to pretty clearly point to him as having been the one through whom all things were created.  (While much of what you're saying makes sense to me, I've tried to see that particular part of the argument from your point of view and it's simply not sitting right.)  Again, even if the Son is not Yaweh these things indicate he is something beyond a man, even a man annointed by God.

[Molly]

Yes, I agree! This is what being anointed means!

Not exactly.  I might be anointed but I am not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

King Saul was anointed but he was not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Paul was anointed but he was not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Craig]

Okay, what about Jesus' pre-existance?  If you've already covered this, I didn't see it. I have seen your answer to the idea that all things were not created through him (although, so far, that seems to me to be your weakest argument).  But when he says that before Abraham was, I am, doesn't that indicate he existed before him?  That may not indicate that Jesus is Yaweh, but it does seem to indicate something beyond mere mortal man.  Again, he's not an angel so there's got to be something more here. 

And, in spite of what you've said, John 1 and Col 1 still seem to pretty clearly point to him as having been the one through whom all things were created.  (While much of what you're saying makes sense to me, I've tried to see that particular part of the argument from your point of view and it's simply not sitting right.)  Again, even if the Son is not Yaweh these things indicate he is something beyond a man, even a man annointed by God.

I agree.

[Molly]

We have already seen a strong argument against the idea that God became man in order to redeem us is that there is not one single O.T.  prophecy that supports it

Psalm 20:6
Now I know that the LORD saves his anointed; he answers him from his holy heaven with the saving power of his right hand.

Psalm 48:10
According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.


Acts 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,


Isa 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

God, Christ and others are referred to as "saviors," but that clearly does not make them identical.  The term "Savior" is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated as "deliverer."  This in and of itself shows that modern translators have a Trinitarian bias that was not in the original languages.  The only reason to translate the same word as "Savior" when it applies to God or Christ, but as "deliverer" when it applies to men, is to make the terms seem unique to God and Jesus when in fact it is not.  This is a good example of how the actual meaning of Scriptures can be obscured if the translators are not careful or if they are theologically biased.

So you wish to claim that Jesus is just one of many 'saviours'?



12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4

There is no salvation  in any other....


Had Luke never heard of YHWH?  Had Luke never heard of El Elyon?


There is no other name...whereby we must be saved


Same question--do these writers not know how to write unambiguously?  Did they really mean to overlook the Saviour of the Old Testament who declares he is the only Saviour?  Is this a new religion?


Philippians 2:9
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,


The name of Jesus is above the name of YHWH, above the name of Jehovah?


Psalm 148:13
Let them praise the name of the LORD, for his name alone is exalted; his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.

[Pierac]

Yes, I agree! This is what being anointed means!

Not exactly.  I might be anointed but I am not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

King Saul was anointed but he was not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Paul was anointed but he was not all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

How do you know?