Can you explain?

[Nathan]

"Dimensional thinking . . .Clearing the Air"  I had to look it up.

[riverman]

I already explained earlier, but will reiterate, God has yet to finish the work He started, this too is spiritual understanding. Paul called it a race to the finish line, and that we are all still running. We have not arrived yet to God's Rest, but by faith we rest now knowing He is faithful to complete the work He has started within us. The definition of resting, is also in dispute. When Jesus said rest in Him, it meant do not worry about tomorrow and do not look at yesterday's mistakes but push forward with both hands firm on the plow because we were created to do good works.

Hello Craig,

Just to clarify my own position I tend to have at some agreement with you here, it is my present belief that we are really not even through the first half of the prophetic creation week yet.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure:

CHB, Molly & Taffy,

I would enjoy discussing this topic with you all but I will not be in a position to dedicate much time to the Board until Tuesday, I will be entertaining guests here throughout the Labor Day weekend holiday which includes Monday. A creation week (and related items of interest) topic might prove to be very interesting!

It is a  very interesting thought you have thrown in and, yes, the original topic seems to have got lost, so let us remind ourselves as to what that was; "Was Jesus Christ begotten/ born or was He created?"

Hi Roy,

Thanks for your response I will bow out of your thread as I am not much of a debator these days, its been burned out of me (I pray).

Peace,

RM

[Craig]

Hello Craig,

Just to clarify my own position I tend to have at some agreement with you here, it is my present belief that we are really not even through the first half of the prophetic creation week yet.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure:

Exactly, declaring the end from the beginning, and from the ancient times things that are not yet done, is exactly what is going on. By faith we can live Today, knowing the end is complete, even though it has not yet been done. It takes some work for a person to comprehend what this means, it is a simple phrase but it is a complicated concept which does not rely on concrete proof to believe.

There is three basic understandings happening when you trust in the Lord, some revelations of reality for a Child of God. There are of course many more, but I find many people confused.

The first is that you are still in this world not taken from it, just as Jesus prayed to the Father not to take them but to protect them from the evil One. Some do not believe the prayer of Jesus in John 17, and believe that they are already taken from this world and therefore are above the principles of life. This is true by faith to be a present reality but in and of itself it is still something that will be.

The second is that although you are in this world you are not of this world which means we are not called to live as ordinary men and women, we are ambassadors who are called out to shine brightly. Some here do not believe this, they believe that freedom comes with no responsibility or accountability, taking there freedom in Christ to sin against both God and man. Though it is true that presently we are free because He set us free, we are not to use this freedom to sin. Man cannot serve two masters, and he is a slave to the one who he serves. We still have responsibility to carry out the commission set before us regardless.

The third is Jesus has already destroyed the work of the evil one and death has no power over you because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This is not the same as destroying the evil one, because the first reality is that he is wandering and looking for whom he can devour. While we are in this natural (not carnal or fleshly, but physical flesh and blood) body, the Lord is with us protecting us from the evil one. At the same time, if you live by the carnal and fleshly desires of your heart, you begin the work of the evil one who has taken and captured you to do his will. We must put on the full armour of God, and put on the belt of Truth which holds it all together. It is Truth, which many have the hardest time in accepting.

So yes, we live presently and now for Christ, by His Spirit He has given to us as promise of things to come, we can presently access the throne of Grace in our time of need and bound and loose both on earth and in heaven that things which are our right through the inheritance given to us by His wonderful grace. This is a present and powerful reality now, but it does not negate or ignore that we still have to run the race, stay focused, and finish this life which we have been called as Ambassadors to share the good news of what was and is and is to come.

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

Hi! I'm Roy Monis

I am new on this site and I've had my very first post blocked. Everything that I've posted was perfectly valid and supported by Scripture, so I don't understand why discussion on a perfectly valid Scriptural question such as " Was Jesus Created or Born?" blocked. Is it the purpose of this forum to discuss Scripture or not? I have not brought any of my own teachings or ideas in as far as I'm aware, so why?

According to my Webster dictionary on e-sword, Created or Born mean the same. 

Begotten
BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get.  Procreated;   generated.

Now let us establish some facts;  1...In the beginning was the Word.    2....The word was with God.    3.....The Word was God.      4.....He was in the beginning with God.    5.....He was the only begotten God in the bosom of the Father.  Here we have five crucial and undeniable facts.

Start with (3), the Word was God.  Now (2) the Word was with God.   Now (1&4), both Gods were from the very beginning.  Last of all let us take (5) the only begotten God was in the bosom of the Father. But we are told that there is only the ONE GOD.
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';" (Isa.46: 9-10) But in (Vs.18) we are told that the Word/God is in the bosom of the Father/God. Now we can identify the two Gods; one is the Father and the other is the Word in the Father's bosom. So there is still just the ONE GOD.

My thoughts on John 1 differ from yours some what, so allow me to share my studies. Here's my research on John 1

John 1:1

I have another train of thought for you to think about. For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament,  "the Word" (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he"  in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation.  Did John write concerning "the word" that "he" was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning "the word" that  "it" was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use "he" to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make "the word" a "he" here?

The English translations of the Greek text before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way:   (notice Him and He are now  "It").

Tyndale 1534:
Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde  was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men

Bishops 1568:
Joh 1:1  In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2  The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3  All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made.  4  In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,

Geneva 1587:
Joh 1:1  In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2  This same was in the beginning with God. 3  All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4  In it was life, and that life was the light of men.

And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John.  And nowhere else do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it ! The rest of the New Testament is the same.  Logos is variously translated as "statement" (Luke 20:20), "question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14), "message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29), so there is actually no reason to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators are wanting to make a point to.  In all cases logos is an "it." 

In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.

"The Word" for John is an "it" not a "he."  On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13.  This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus.  "And the Word became flesh."  A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is fulfilled.  Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh. There is even strong evidence suggest the John himself reacted to those who were already misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the world.  When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in the beginning was not a "who" he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life"

Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". It is not as some would have you believe Jesus' middle name. Jesus is not called Jesus Logos of Nazareth. This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God."

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing. Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom of God message. So what does "logos" mean?

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea
(New American Bible  (footnote) & Vine's Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.

I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"

"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."

The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:

"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).

So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:

"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."

With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.

You decide which definition is correct, Greek philosophy's or John's Jewish definition.


So why did John write his Gospel? To teach us that Jesus is God, or something else? Well, he tells us in John 20:31

"but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ (anointed one), the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

So are we going to believe John's inspired writings, that Jesus is the "Son of God", or the tradition of men who teach Jesus is "God the son." 

It was the 1611 Kings James bible that began to change the way we read John 1, and tradition is a hard thing to overcome!

Paul

##############


Hi! Pierac

1.......Your quote Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde 
         was with God: and the worde  was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with
         God.

Old English but what matter, it's the same, the only difference being you left out the vs.18 
          which adds meaning to what appears to be an enigma.

As far as the heresy goes I refuse to answer and request you remove it off my thread. 
           "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on
            it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes 
            are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on 
            Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, 
            and His name is called The Word of God." (Rev.19:11-13).

The Word/Son of God is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and to refer to Him as "IT" is
            blasphemy of the highest order. (You need your mouth washing out with something 
            stronger than fullers soap, may I suggest arsenic). I believe some of the blasphemers
            were justly rewarded on earth but yet to face the purifying wrath of God.

2..........Your quote: And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
            Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was 
             the word. "

There is nothing new in this it is the same thing except for the missing vs.18. What it is saying to me is; The Word was in the beginning and the Word was toward God. This can only mean that God the Father was the beginning, and that the Word which was toward Him was in the beginning which was God/Father, and that the Word itself was God/Son. NOTHING DIFFERENT other than the heresy. I've dealt with it enough so kindly remove all of it or will someone kindly show me how I can do Mr Pierac the honour.

Thank you for your response but I don't suffer heresies and blasphemy too kindly, please take it elsewhere. Your deep study is putting you under a deep delusion; "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12)

url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url]
                                     
Not "IT"  You Blasphemer!
Peace!

Roy   UK.

[Roy Monis]

Hello Craig,

Just to clarify my own position I tend to have at some agreement with you here, it is my present belief that we are really not even through the first half of the prophetic creation week yet.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure:

Exactly, declaring the end from the beginning, and from the ancient times things that are not yet done, is exactly what is going on. By faith we can live Today, knowing the end is complete, even though it has not yet been done. It takes some work for a person to comprehend what this means, it is a simple phrase but it is a complicated concept which does not rely on concrete proof to believe.

There is three basic understandings happening when you trust in the Lord, some revelations of reality for a Child of God. There are of course many more, but I find many people confused.

The first is that you are still in this world not taken from it, just as Jesus prayed to the Father not to take them but to protect them from the evil One. Some do not believe the prayer of Jesus in John 17, and believe that they are already taken from this world and therefore are above the principles of life. This is true by faith to be a present reality but in and of itself it is still something that will be.

The second is that although you are in this world you are not of this world which means we are not called to live as ordinary men and women, we are ambassadors who are called out to shine brightly. Some here do not believe this, they believe that freedom comes with no responsibility or accountability, taking there freedom in Christ to sin against both God and man. Though it is true that presently we are free because He set us free, we are not to use this freedom to sin. Man cannot serve two masters, and he is a slave to the one who he serves. We still have responsibility to carry out the commission set before us regardless.

The third is Jesus has already destroyed the work of the evil one and death has no power over you because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This is not the same as destroying the evil one, because the first reality is that he is wandering and looking for whom he can devour. While we are in this natural (not carnal or fleshly, but physical flesh and blood) body, the Lord is with us protecting us from the evil one. At the same time, if you live by the carnal and fleshly desires of your heart, you begin the work of the evil one who has taken and captured you to do his will. We must put on the full armour of God, and put on the belt of Truth which holds it all together. It is Truth, which many have the hardest time in accepting.

So yes, we live presently and now for Christ, by His Spirit He has given to us as promise of things to come, we can presently access the throne of Grace in our time of need and bound and loose both on earth and in heaven that things which are our right through the inheritance given to us by His wonderful grace. This is a present and powerful reality now, but it does not negate or ignore that we still have to run the race, stay focused, and finish this life which we have been called as Ambassadors to share the good news of what was and is and is to come.

Hi! SOtW

How very true, too much is taken for granted under the umbrella of Liberty and grace which makes one complacent regarding obedience to that Law of Liberty and grace. Knowing the end from the beginning, yes we are somewhere in between because what is ahead of us has already been, there is nothing new under the sun. That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one might say, "See this, it is new"? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us........ He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end...... That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by........ I have seen that nothing is better than that man should be happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him?" (Eccl.3:11,15,22)

Peace!(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)
Roy   UK

[Craig]

Hey Roy,

I am one for discussion. Unforuntately, I find no benefit to just calling out a person's beliefs as heresy and so much to refuse them discussion as a result of it. I know you believe Arianism is heresy, but at the same time the same going around telling people this is heresy is not going to help them understand the why, how and what this heresy is. I have had many disagreements with Pierac concerning the Trinity and it doesn't go anywhere but the discussion usually isn't for changing minds of those with the positions but to give those reading the discussion informed decisions. Don't need to use the same fallacy which is used against you, against another person.

People have thrown out the baby with the bathwater since accepting the UR/CU and so everything has become open discussion even the things that were once considered heresy, because Universalism has been called heresy and so now free of this label, what other things which were called heresy are not? I still retain that not everything we learned in Christianity was false, but there are some who question it all now and I believe that is good and needs to be discussed civilly and reasonably.

Though, as I said before, what does Jesus being created or begotten, have to do with Universal Salvation?

[Molly]

Though, as I said before, what does Jesus being created or begotten, have to do with Universal Salvation?

Maybe a better question would be--what does it have to do with salvation?

[Pierac]

##############


Hi! Pierac

1.......Your quote Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde 
         was with God: and the worde  was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with
         God.

Old English but what matter, it's the same, the only difference being you left out the vs.18 
          which adds meaning to what appears to be an enigma.

As far as the heresy goes I refuse to answer and request you remove it off my thread. 
           "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on
            it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes 
            are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on 
            Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, 
            and His name is called The Word of God." (Rev.19:11-13).

The Word/Son of God is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and to refer to Him as "IT" is
            blasphemy of the highest order. (You need your mouth washing out with something 
            stronger than fullers soap, may I suggest arsenic). I believe some of the blasphemers
            were justly rewarded on earth but yet to face the purifying wrath of God.

2..........Your quote: And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
            Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was 
             the word. "

There is nothing new in this it is the same thing except for the missing vs.18. What it is saying to me is; The Word was in the beginning and the Word was toward God. This can only mean that God the Father was the beginning, and that the Word which was toward Him was in the beginning which was God/Father, and that the Word itself was God/Son. NOTHING DIFFERENT other than the heresy. I've dealt with it enough so kindly remove all of it or will someone kindly show me how I can do Mr Pierac the honour.

Thank you for your response but I don't suffer heresies and blasphemy too kindly, please take it elsewhere. Your deep study is putting you under a deep delusion; "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12)

url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url]
                                     
Not "IT"  You Blasphemer!
Peace!

Roy   UK.

So your saying Tyndale and the translators of the  Bishops, Geneva and the Concordant Literal bible Versions are all blasphemers? I forgive you because you obviously did not read my post. The logos was called an "it" not Jesus. Also I did not write the definitions for "Logos"

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea
(New American Bible  (footnote) & Vine's Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.


BTW, You were the one who asked "Was Jesus Created or Born?"  And according to Christendom your question alone is blasphemous! So don't ask blasphemous questions and not to expect non-traditional answers. The Administrator allowed this thread to continue so I added my two cents. If my post are too strong then I will respect your wishes and will not add as it is your thread. However, you did ask, so don't be so shocked when someone answers.

So, I'm sorry for freaking you out, as I believe in only one God, the Father.(Joh 17:1-3) Who sent his only begotten son for the salvation of the world. The whole world!

Again sorry,
Paul

[Roy Monis]

Hey Roy,

I am one for discussion. Unforuntately, I find no benefit to just calling out a person's beliefs as heresy and so much to refuse them discussion as a result of it. I know you believe Arianism is heresy, but at the same time the same going around telling people this is heresy is not going to help them understand the why, how and what this heresy is. I have had many disagreements with Pierac concerning the Trinity and it doesn't go anywhere but the discussion usually isn't for changing minds of those with the positions but to give those reading the discussion informed decisions. Don't need to use the same fallacy which is used against you, against another person.

People have thrown out the baby with the bathwater since accepting the UR/CU and so everything has become open discussion even the things that were once considered heresy, because Universalism has been called heresy and so now free of this label, what other things which were called heresy are not? I still retain that not everything we learned in Christianity was false, but there are some who question it all now and I believe that is good and needs to be discussed civilly and reasonably.

Though, as I said before, what does Jesus being created or begotten, have to do with Universal Salvation?

Hi! SOtW

I fully concur with what you have said and thank you for your kind and wise advice. I was wrong not to have read all of Pierac's post before going off the top. But I could not control my emotions when I thought my Lord was being reduced to an IT. I will read his full post and answer it in a civil manner as you so wisely suggest.

Thank you brother, you're a friend.

Peace!(http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)

Roy   UK 

[Molly]

Though, as I said before, what does Jesus being created or begotten, have to do with Universal Salvation?

Maybe a better question would be--what does it have to do with salvation?

How can a created being, a man, save me?



8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

--Acts 4



Only God can save me.




I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

--Isa 43



Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.



O, Lord Jesus!  My Lord and my God!

[Roy Monis]

##############


Hi! Pierac

1.......Your quote Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde 
         was with God: and the worde  was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with
         God.

Old English but what matter, it's the same, the only difference being you left out the vs.18 
          which adds meaning to what appears to be an enigma.

As far as the heresy goes I refuse to answer and request you remove it off my thread. 
           "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on
            it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes 
            are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on 
            Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, 
            and His name is called The Word of God." (Rev.19:11-13).

The Word/Son of God is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and to refer to Him as "IT" is
            blasphemy of the highest order. (You need your mouth washing out with something 
            stronger than fullers soap, may I suggest arsenic). I believe some of the blasphemers
            were justly rewarded on earth but yet to face the purifying wrath of God.

2..........Your quote: And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
            Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was 
             the word. "

There is nothing new in this it is the same thing except for the missing vs.18. What it is saying to me is; The Word was in the beginning and the Word was toward God. This can only mean that God the Father was the beginning, and that the Word which was toward Him was in the beginning which was God/Father, and that the Word itself was God/Son. NOTHING DIFFERENT other than the heresy. I've dealt with it enough so kindly remove all of it or will someone kindly show me how I can do Mr Pierac the honour.

Thank you for your response but I don't suffer heresies and blasphemy too kindly, please take it elsewhere. Your deep study is putting you under a deep delusion; "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12)

url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url]
                                     
Not "IT"  You Blasphemer!
Peace!

Roy   UK.

So your saying Tyndale and the translators of the  Bishops, Geneva and the Concordant Literal bible Versions are all blasphemers? I forgive you because you obviously did not read my post. The logos was called an "it" not Jesus. Also I did not write the definitions for "Logos"

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea
(New American Bible  (footnote) & Vine's Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.


BTW, You were the one who asked "Was Jesus Created or Born?"  And according to Christendom your question alone is blasphemous! So don't ask blasphemous questions and not to expect non-traditional answers. The Administrator allowed this thread to continue so I added my two cents. If my post are too strong then I will respect your wishes and will not add as it is your thread. However, you did ask, so don't be so shocked when someone answers.

So, I'm sorry for freaking you out, as I believe in only one God, the Father.(Joh 17:1-3) Who sent his only begotten son for the salvation of the world. The whole world!

Again sorry,
Paul

Hi! Paul

Forgive me brother for my ignorance at attempting to upbraid you without reading your full post. I was too shocked to think that you were reducing my Lord to an IT.

I will now follow brother SOtW's advice and answer you in a more civil manner if I may?

Your quote;

Therefore, it's pronoun -"he"  in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation.  Did John write concerning "the word" that "he" was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning "the word" that  "it" was in the beginning with God?

Let us read it;  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3).

Now if I understand you correctly you are saying that the pronouns He & Him are a matter of interpretation not translation. You ask did John write that He was in the beginning or did he write that IT was in the beginning. Well for the answer let's skip a few verses and go down, what does one read there? "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn. 1.18).

So what must John have meant when he wrote that verse?  He or IT?  Now the Son of Gog does not appear to be an IT to me, does it to you?

Your post is a very long one so I'll have to answer it in short bursts. And I'll start by asking you for a short response as to what you make of the above. Once that is settled we can in all civility continue to the end of your long post.

My purpose in this is to ensure that I'm building my new house on a firm foundation or it is going to fall, like the one I built in Babylon.  The only True foundation is the True Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and Saviour of OF THE WHOLE WORLD. I am not trying to push my belief down anyone's throat. Everyone appears to be busy putting the roof on their house with all the trimmings and not paying attention to the basic foundation on which they are building. That is purely my line of thought that you may find of interest.

Peace! (http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)
Roy   UK.

[Roy Monis]

Though, as I said before, what does Jesus being created or begotten, have to do with Universal Salvation?

Maybe a better question would be--what does it have to do with salvation?

Hi! Molly

What does whether Jesus Christ was Begotten or created got to do with salvation? There are many false christs in the world today; "for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance."  (Mark 13:22-23). It doesn't have anything at all to do with salvation or universal salvation, but I was under the impression that our aim was to achieve the first resurrection of the chosen. If it is, then the True Jesus matters a great deal without Him you have no chance at all. "Jesus *said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'" (Jn.14:6).

I personally want to try and be in the first resurrection if at all possible even if no one else wishes to. The false christ will not get me to the first resurrection that's for a cert; "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12).
(http://dl5.glitter-graphics.net/pub/208/208685lx80ugxhil.gif)Peace!

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

##############


Hi! Pierac

1.......Your quote Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde 
         was with God: and the worde  was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with
         God.

Old English but what matter, it's the same, the only difference being you left out the vs.18 
          which adds meaning to what appears to be an enigma.

As far as the heresy goes I refuse to answer and request you remove it off my thread. 
           "And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on
            it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes 
            are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on 
            Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, 
            and His name is called The Word of God." (Rev.19:11-13).

The Word/Son of God is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and to refer to Him as "IT" is
            blasphemy of the highest order. (You need your mouth washing out with something 
            stronger than fullers soap, may I suggest arsenic). I believe some of the blasphemers
            were justly rewarded on earth but yet to face the purifying wrath of God.

2..........Your quote: And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
            Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was 
             the word. "

There is nothing new in this it is the same thing except for the missing vs.18. What it is saying to me is; The Word was in the beginning and the Word was toward God. This can only mean that God the Father was the beginning, and that the Word which was toward Him was in the beginning which was God/Father, and that the Word itself was God/Son. NOTHING DIFFERENT other than the heresy. I've dealt with it enough so kindly remove all of it or will someone kindly show me how I can do Mr Pierac the honour.

Thank you for your response but I don't suffer heresies and blasphemy too kindly, please take it elsewhere. Your deep study is putting you under a deep delusion; "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12)

url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url]
                                     
Not "IT"  You Blasphemer!
Peace!

Roy   UK.

So your saying Tyndale and the translators of the  Bishops, Geneva and the Concordant Literal bible Versions are all blasphemers? I forgive you because you obviously did not read my post. The logos was called an "it" not Jesus. Also I did not write the definitions for "Logos"

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea
(New American Bible  (footnote) & Vine's Expository Dictionary).

According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:

Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.


BTW, You were the one who asked "Was Jesus Created or Born?"  And according to Christendom your question alone is blasphemous! So don't ask blasphemous questions and not to expect non-traditional answers. The Administrator allowed this thread to continue so I added my two cents. If my post are too strong then I will respect your wishes and will not add as it is your thread. However, you did ask, so don't be so shocked when someone answers.

So, I'm sorry for freaking you out, as I believe in only one God, the Father.(Joh 17:1-3) Who sent his only begotten son for the salvation of the world. The whole world!

Again sorry,
Paul

Hi! Paul

Forgive me brother for my ignorance at attempting to upbraid you without reading your full post. I was too shocked to think that you were reducing my Lord to an IT.

I will now follow brother SOtW's advice and answer you in a more civil manner if I may?

Your quote;

Therefore, it's pronoun -"he"  in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation.  Did John write concerning "the word" that "he" was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning "the word" that  "it" was in the beginning with God?

Let us read it;  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3).

Now if I understand you correctly you are saying that the pronouns He & Him are a matter of interpretation not translation. You ask did John write that He was in the beginning or did he write that IT was in the beginning. Well for the answer let's skip a few verses and go down, what does one read there? "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn. 1.18).

So what must John have meant when he wrote that verse?  He or IT?  Now the Son of Gog does not appear to be an IT to me, does it to you?

Your post is a very long one so I'll have to answer it in short bursts. And I'll start by asking you for a short response as to what you make of the above. Once that is settled we can in all civility continue to the end of your long post.

My purpose in this is to ensure that I'm building my new house on a firm foundation or it is going to fall, like the one I built in Babylon.  The only True foundation is the True Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and Saviour of OF THE WHOLE WORLD. I am not trying to push my belief down anyone's throat. Everyone appears to be busy putting the roof on their house with all the trimmings and not paying attention to the basic foundation on which they are building. That is purely my line of thought that you may find of interest.

Peace! (http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1551/1551031u6k25jgwzu.png)
Roy   UK.

Hi! Paul

It doesn't appear as though I've received a reply to my last post to you, but regardless I'll continue to answer the rest of the questions you pose in your long email.

Let me start this by giving an account of myself. I am quite unlike you in that I do not do any intense study of the Bible. I do not have a string of theological letters such as A.B., M.Div., D.D.,D.Sac.Let., PhD., Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., or D.Humane Let. My credentials are a simple DDJ which stands for double dunce joker. I add my intellect to the dung heap where it belongs when it comes to matters of God.

I have read Genesis to Revelation many dozens of times and made three passages of Scripture  idols of my heart, (Jn.14:26) witnessed by (1Jn.2:27) with the clear warning in (1Jn.2:26). All this is followed by sincere prayer for my Lord to guide my fingers on the key board as they are presently doing. Pure faith, brother nothing else. My reference to the Bible is when I have to quote a passage accurately.

If you had followed my posts as you have said, you'll be aware of the fact that I draw a distinction between Jesus the man and Christ the Word. Jesus the man was created but Christ the Word was begotten. I'll explain; you say logos was the word IT and not He. Now pray explain to me how an IT can speak with the Father?  "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, 'Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.'" (Heb.10:5-7)?

This tells me that the Word was the only begotten Son in His Father's bosom who was commanded by His Father to speak the Logos/word to start creation; " Let there Be Light!" Christ is both the Son of God and the Logos, they both demand capitalization and they are both HE not IT.

Now where does Jesus come in? Many millennial after the 6 creation days the Word/Logos enter the body that was prepared for Him and the Father's Spirit impregnated Mary, and Joseph was commanded by the Father through the archangel Gabriel to name the Child Jesus. That is the story in accord with the Bible. Not some fancy idol of man's creation but the actual Son of God/Word/Logos/Christ. And witness to that statement; "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me"? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him.""  (Heb.1:5:6).

Now when Jesus comes into the world as Christ/Son of God/Logos/Word the Father once again  (And Again this time when He comes into the newly created world ) gives birth to Him a second time. We will all one day be begotten sons and daughters of the Living God through His Son Jesus Christ. [color=red]Begotten [/color]of the Father through Christ and not created.

This I think answers your full email to me and I apologize for my hasty reaction to it. Regarding Tynedale and the rest, yes, I have no doubt they were blasphemers and will have to answer to the Lord in due season.

Bless you brother.

Peace!(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)
Roy   UK

[Molly]

I personally want to try and be in the first resurrection if at all possible even if no one else wishes to. The false christ will not get me to the first resurrection that's for a cert; "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12).
(http://dl5.glitter-graphics.net/pub/208/208685lx80ugxhil.gif)Peace!

Roy   UK

God will send upon them--*a deluding influence*--that they might be judged ---*who did not believe the truth*--but took pleasure in wickedness.

What a powerful and accurate description of our society today.

This is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world--but men preferred darkness--because all their deeds--*were evil.*

They hide from the light and pursue their evil ways, and thereby judge themselves by falling under a powerful deluding influence that blocks out the truth--about everything!

The mind without Christ is totally insane!

[rosered]

The mind without Christ is totally insane!

good call 
Molly Luk 6:11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus. 

  madness  ''the violent rage ''  relating to bitterness   Adams  breath   the nostrils [ anger of the face ]
  i looked into this also with the ''mark''  charagma   the alliance  and agreement  with one another against  Christ  Jesus
it is a mindset   to me anyways   or the right mind  the healing  from  Jesus Christ the WORD /SON of God  is life

Luk 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

   I love the studies they go  so much  deeper  and higher than   the surface of things 


peace ...  rr

[Roy Monis]

The mind without Christ is totally insane!

good call 
Molly Luk 6:11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus. 

  madness  "the violent rage "  relating to bitterness   Adams  breath   the nostrils [ anger of the face ]
  i looked into this also with the "mark"  charagma   the alliance  and agreement  with one another against  Christ  Jesus
it is a mindset   to me anyways   or the right mind  the healing  from  Jesus Christ the WORD /SON of God  is life

Luk 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

   I love the studies they go  so much  deeper  and higher than   the surface of things 


peace ...  rr

Hi! IT

'Tis true that the mind without Christ is madness, but there are several christs in the world today, which of them is the real one? There can only be the one answer The Word/Logos/only begotten Son of the Father/God....Jesus Christ. Any other christ is madder than just plain madness. Don't you think?

My long thread is all about this very simple but vital issue; who do we worship the only begotten Son of God/Word/Christ/Logos or do we worship a created creature, a man made idol-christ, which is all the rage at the moment?

Whilst in Babylon I built my house on the spiritual sand along the sea shore, but when the tide of humanity came in, it moved the sand from under it and my house collapsed, it was built on a created false christ. Then I built my new house on the Rock and when the tide of humanity came up against it, I cried out to my God; "....on the lake, and they began to be swamped and to be in danger. They came to Jesus and woke Him up, saying, "Master, Master, we are perishing!" And He got up and rebuked the wind and the surging waves, and they stopped, and it became calm." (Luke8:24). "And He said to them, "Where is your faith?" (Luke :8:25).  "They were fearful and amazed, saying to one another, "Who then is this, that He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey Him?" (Luke 8:25).

This is the God I worship the One who; " commands even the winds and the water, and they obey Him?"  Jesus Christ/Word/Logos/Son of God/GOD.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[rosered]

 

   Hi  Roy , rr  here or  rosered , it looks Like IT dont it LOL....... :gangel:

      i Have just read an article 

   called the " unforgiving  watershed"
by John Loeffler

    it was an eye opener  for sure ..
God being outside the Box      makes it hard for us whom are inside the box [ His Creation]   knowing the TRUTH & Grace  by faith
  except for the time /point in Hand when He did Send Himself inside the Box as His Son 

   the WORD OF GOD  /  JESUS CHRIST to me is knowing the Father and SON His Love   if they do not speak of this  part  they are  definatly antichrists [  against the annointed One ] those having the  Spirit of Christ/prophecy have the same witness and testimony  as Jesus Christ come to deliver seed [and  birth new] ...within our hearts and minds

    SEEING HERE HOW EASY IT WAS FOR JOHN TO  FALL down here   ! :mshock:

and worship  angels /stars hosts of heaven    deut 4;19??? 
   there is that warning in the old testimony /witness ....   so  ,  the WORD OF GOD humbles me  greatly , i am not clever  or crafty  ,  I am very simple  really and Jesus  ministry    in john 17   Jesus prayer was that the  gospel be  preached to all   by the twelve and the  gathering   to Himself by those sent as well  by   GOD /WORD OF GOD ..
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  fortelling /revealing Light /knowledge of  Him ...

Peace  r  r aka rosered

[Roy Monis]

   Hi  Roy , rr  here or  rosered , it looks Like IT dont it LOL....... :gangel:

      i Have just read an article 

   called the " unforgiving  watershed"
by John Loeffler

    it was an eye opener  for sure ..
God being outside the Box      makes it hard for us whom are inside the box [ His Creation]   knowing the TRUTH & Grace  by faith
  except for the time /point in Hand when He did Send Himself inside the Box as His Son 

   the WORD OF GOD  /  JESUS CHRIST to me is knowing the Father and SON His Love   if they do not speak of this  part  they are  definatly antichrists [  against the annointed One ] those having the  Spirit of Christ/prophecy have the same witness and testimony  as Jesus Christ come to deliver seed [and  birth new] ...within our hearts and minds

    SEEING HERE HOW EASY IT WAS FOR JOHN TO  FALL down here   ! :mshock:

and worship  angels /stars hosts of heaven    deut 4;19??? 
   there is that warning in the old testimony /witness ....   so  ,  the WORD OF GOD humbles me  greatly , i am not clever  or crafty  ,  I am very simple  really and Jesus  ministry    in john 17   Jesus prayer was that the  gospel be  preached to all   by the twelve and the  gathering   to Himself by those sent as well  by   GOD /WORD OF GOD ..
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  fortelling /revealing Light /knowledge of  Him ...

Peace  r  r aka rosered

Hi! rr

My apologies brother, s.....oooo...ry! Please forgive.

Yes I have read that article and it's similarity to my thread is remarkable. On several occasions I have tried to make the point that (1Jn.1-3) was referring to a period way ahead of creation itself as explained by the box analogy. Here we are with God and nothing else, difficult to imagine but true just the same. The beginning of everything was God who is eternal. The Word we are told was in the beginning which is God so the Word was in God, finally we are told that the Word itself is God. All this is outside the box as the author calls it. At the Father's command, the Word is born and declares the spoken Word/Logos of the Father's will "Let there be light" Now we have the box and everything in it being created by His Son/Word/Logos/Christ.

The Son/Word/God born of the Father all the rest created. Jesus is as yet 6 creation days/ages and several millennium of being born.

The next begotten/birth is Jesus Christ and then us the sons and daughters of God, (Born Again) through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (John 1:1-5) and (Heb.1,5,10). Like Christ we are "Born" and not created.

"Just as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things! However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."  (Rom.10:15-17)

Humans, such as, theologians and intellectuals spend a lifetime in deep concentrated study of the Word of God. They use the physical (intellect) which is enmity toward God to interpret the spiritual which is toward God. The result is like Babel the Lord sends a  "...and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:10-12).

God gives us the only spiritual way to Him in "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding."  (Pro.3:5) And a stern warning; "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."  (Pro.14:12). Repeated in (Pro.16:25) to emphasize it's importance. But yet again; ""Lord, who has believed our report?"  Man has to learn to cast his intellect in the dung heap and begin to lean and trust in God. The Scriptures tell us very plainly how this can be done. "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."  (Jn.14:25-26). Witnessed by "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. " (1Jn.2:27). With the the very clear warning "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1Jn.2:26).

Peace!(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/roymonis/peace.gif)

Roy   UK

   

[Molly]

"These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1Jn.2:26).

Who are "those trying to deceive you"?  The whole world is being deceived, so we look to media, politicians, world leaders, religious leaders, all leaders everywhere as the deceivers.


...Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ...(Rev 12)

We are to be-- in the world, not of it --for a reason.

We have been given the Spirit of truth.  He will show you all truth.

But, first, you have to look for it.

And, only with Christ--he is our touchstone, our foundation, our witness to the truth.

God is not in all the storm and drama of the world, but in the quietness.

11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

--1Kings 19

"cave"

H4631
מערה
me‛ârâh
meh-aw-raw'
From H5783; a cavern (as dark): - cave, den, hole.



H5783
עוּר
‛ûr
oor
A primitive root; to (be) bare: -  be made naked.

[Craig]

H5783
עוּר
‛ûr
oor
A primitive root; to (be) bare: -  be made naked.

Rootword fallacy, not relevant.

[Molly]

H5783
עוּר
‛ûr
oor
A primitive root; to (be) bare: -  be made naked.

Rootword fallacy, not relevant.

It is relevant to *me.*

I love using the roots when they so clearly elucidate the depth of the meaning of the passage.

Because why else does he wrap his face in the mantle if not for the fact that we stand naked before God?

"mantle"

H155
אדּרת
'addereth
ad-deh'-reth
Feminine of H117; something ample (as a large vine, a wide dress); also the same as H145: - garment, glory, goodly, mantle, robe.


It's important for me to know these things for my prophecy 101 course.


2Cor 5

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

[Roy Monis]

"These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you." (1Jn.2:26).

Who are "those trying to deceive you"?  The whole world is being deceived, so we look to media, politicians, world leaders, religious leaders, all leaders everywhere as the deceivers.


...Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: ...(Rev 12)

We are to be-- in the world, not of it --for a reason.

We have been given the Spirit of truth.  He will show you all truth.

But, first, you have to look for it.

And, only with Christ--he is our touchstone, our foundation, our witness to the truth.

God is not in all the storm and drama of the world, but in the quietness.

11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

--1Kings 19

"cave"

H4631
מערה
me‛ârâh
meh-aw-raw'
From H5783; a cavern (as dark): - cave, den, hole.



H5783
עוּר
‛ûr
oor
A primitive root; to (be) bare: -  be made naked.

Hi! Molly

No, love, the problem for those who are in Christ, is nothing to do with the media and the world in general, we are in the world as of necessity but not of the world. Our problem is from within our midst, it is they who are trying to deceive us into thinking their way and believing their belief, exchanging the truth for what is false; "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth."   (1Jn.2:18-21).

It is the antichrist, those who promote a false christ, who teach false doctrines, the doctrines of men, that we are warned against. These are they who are trying to deceive us not the world, we are not of the world. They are ruled by their head and not by their heart.   

"The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd. But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."   (Eccl.12:11-14).

Man's brain, his intellect, is physical and designed to deal with matters concerning the physical world in which he lives and it serves that purpose admirably, but God speaks to the heart in the quiet seclusion of your inner room, that gentle quiet inner voice which we in Christ are all too familiar with. It is that voice that we must trust; "Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding."   (Pro.3:5). It is this quiet voice that we must obey and not those of the false teachers who are trying to deceive us.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[Craig]

I understand you believe them relevant to you. At the same time, it has been demonstrated by UR and non-UR theologians and linguists that root words do have relevance to what is being said, since it is the usage of the word weighs far more than the etymology of the word. When we speak the things of God, it is not the root word of the individual words that matter, it is the meaning of the words which are said, which matters. This word, is for the listener, not specifically to you Molly, since you find it relevant regardless of anything else.

[Nathan]

The picture I see in this passage was one that really illuminated so many other things.  Things like the fact that we see this great prophet of all prophets who had just killed 400 false prophets after God manifested in a most impressive manner by consuming his sacrifice as well as the water that filled the trenches round about in such a dramatic fashion . .after this great feat . . .Elijah comes completely unglued at the challenge of a woman.  He not only runs to hide, but he gives up his ministry and his life. . .he just gives it all up and is ready for death.

This angel comes, "wakes him up" feeds him . . .and he rolls over and goes back to sleep . . . the angel had to come a second time, wake him up, feed him and then led him for 40 days . . .here's the kicker for me . . .the moment Elijah arrives "to where the angel led him"  God asks . ."Dude . . .what are you doing here?"

The entire journey was the wrong way.  It was ordained by God, led by the messenger of God .  .and it was the wrong way.  Why?  Because God then instructed him to "go back the way you came".  Another clue to the deeper problem was Elijah's act of burying his face into his cloak. . . The ointing was "on" Elijah, his identity was in this cloak.  He buries his face . . .your face is what other's identify you by.  Every time I see "face" in Scripture, it speaks to me of one's identity.  I cry out for seeing Jesus face-to-face.  

What that really means is, that my identity becomes "His" identity.  

Where Elijah lost it was when he put his identity into the ministry, rather than into God and the ministry could not give him life enough to sustain him.  I've also always felt that the number 40 is linked to birthing as it takes a woman 40 weeks from conception to birth . . .Romans 1:20, God uses natural things to manifest spiritual principles.  This time, for me, it birthed Elisha . . a son that Elijah was able to pass in an inheritance into through which Elisha performed twice as many miracles as did Elijah.  

At any rate, the act of Elijah burying his face into his mantle is to me a picture of one who has their identity buried in their ministry . . . God is not in the natural manifestations . . .they are simply tools used to further his purposes.  Interesting also that Elijah didn't find God in law, even though, this is the same place where Moses received the tablets . . . but it was in the "voice" of silence.  I see this is a story of a man who God realigns his identity.  It's not in what I see . . .but in who I hear.

[Molly]

I understand you believe them relevant to you. At the same time, it has been demonstrated by UR and non-UR theologians and linguists that root words do have relevance to what is being said, since it is the usage of the word weighs far more than the etymology of the word. When we speak the things of God, it is not the root word of the individual words that matter, it is the meaning of the words which are said, which matters. This word, is for the listener, not specifically to you Molly, since you find it relevant regardless of anything else.

All of our English words come from root words, and those who would be proficient in the English language do well to study them.

Main Entry: pro·fi·cient
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: -sh&nt
Etymology: Latin proficient-, proficiens, present participle of proficere to go forward, accomplish, from pro- forward + facere to make -- more at PRO- , do
: well advanced in an art, occupation, or branch of knowledge
- proficient noun
- pro·fi·cient·ly adverb
synonyms PROFICIENT , ADEPT , SKILLED , SKILLFUL , EXPERT mean having great knowledge and experience in a trade or profession.