Can you explain?

[Nathan]

how do we love our enemy if we are not to love the things of the world??

Hi! Laren

You love your brother, my friend. Your so-called enemy is also your brother and you must love your brother whether he is in or out of the world. That's how.!

Peace!

Roy  UKurl=h[ttp://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/681/681483u7y91w3fyi.gif)[/url]

If someone approached you and offered you a beer, or wine, or mixed drink . . .would you take it?  Or would you explain to them nicely that it's an abomination against God to defile your body with such things?

[laren]

how do we love our enemy if we are not to love the things of the world??

Hi! Laren

You love your brother, my friend. Your so-called enemy is also your brother and you must love your brother whether he is in or out of the world. That's how.!

Peace!

Roy  UKurl=h[ttp://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/681/681483u7y91w3fyi.gif)[/url]

If someone approached you and offered you a beer, or wine, or mixed drink . . .would you take it?  Or would you explain to them nicely that it's an abomination against God to defile your body with such things?

i'd take it and ask for another one.   :grin: :grin:

[Craig]

how do we love our enemy if we are not to love the things of the world??

Hi! Laren

You love your brother, my friend. Your so-called enemy is also your brother and you must love your brother whether he is in or out of the world. That's how.!

Peace!

Roy  UKurl=h[ttp://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/681/681483u7y91w3fyi.gif)[/url]

If someone approached you and offered you a beer, or wine, or mixed drink . . .would you take it?  Or would you explain to them nicely that it's an abomination against God to defile your body with such things?

i'd take it and ask for another one.   :grin: :grin:

I would politely reject it, and ask if they had spiced rum and diet coke instead. I get migraines from beer.

[laren]

[
I would politely reject it, and ask if they had spiced rum and diet coke instead. I get migraines from beer.

it's the grain in the beer

my grain

:grin:

[Roy Monis]

Isn't it a bit difficult to love others if you can't even love yourself?  It's got nothing to do with loving worldly things, it's simply applying the same grace to your own shortcomings as God does.  If his image is in you, and if you're to see others as he sees them, being blind to the failures of sin and others is what it's all about.

If I love others and can't stand myself . . .it that not hypocracy?

What is your description of false humility?

Hi! Brother Nathan

I didn't say I hated myself, now did I?  I didn't love the person I was, I love Him within me more than my life itself and I love my neighbour (you brother) more than myself, the "I" comes last. Yes, I grant you my old self was a hypocrite because, if the truth be known, my love for you (my neighbour) wouldn't have stood an earthly chance if challenged by the lures of the world, greed. God of course wouldn't have entered the equation. But now it's different, I have at last found my First Love  "But I have this against you, that you have left your first love." (Rev.2:4).

Having found Him I have also found myself, I have consumed Him and He has consumed me, now I live for Him and not myself, there is no hypocrisy in it now. The "I" no longer exists it is He that controls everything, the Captain of this humble ship. A big ocean and me in a small ship needs a Captain such as the Lord. This, then is my description of true humility, does it answer your description of it as a false humility? Or is it your humility that's in doubt?

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy   UK

Mind if I expound on your passage you quoted there?  Kind of keep it in the context . . .
2 "I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don't tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars. 3 You have patiently suffered for me without quitting.
4 "But I have this complaint against you. You don't love me or each other as you did at first! 5 Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don't repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches

The part that jumped out at me here was the fact that the didn't tolerate evil people.  We're talking on this thread about loving yourself . .or not . . and here, these guys wouldn't tolerate evil people and they were bent on proving others to be false in their appearances (sounds kind of familiar . .)  This on the surface, sounds like a pretty busy church pursuing Christ . .but if that's true, then why did he find that they'd lost their first love?  They don't love Christ as much as they once did . . .can you see why?  Because they enjoyed proving others wrong more than they did loving Christ.  And they were good at it . .. they proved them . .it wasn't just an attempt to prove people wrong . . .they really proved them to be wrong . .but where did it get them?

Back to Romans 3 . . .law is the knowledge of sin, but the righteousness of God is made manifest, it becomes visible . . .without the law . . .when we ignore the sin.

Hi! Nathan

Your quote :  4 "But I have this complaint against you. You don't love me or each other as you did at first! 5 Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first.

Which Bible did you get this from, brother? I can only afford three; KJV; NASV; Interlinear Hebrew/Greek/English and a Strong's Concordance, and none of them translate it as you have done above. This is how it appears in them all; "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." (Rev.2:4-5). 

That to my understanding is very plain: I have left my First Love which is God nothing about neighbour or self there.

Remember from where you have fallen and repent and do the deeds you did before. I read that to mean I have fallen from grace. Do the deeds you did before, so what were the deeds I did before? I read this to mean to Love God and my neighbour which is the commandment I have had fallen away from. Nothing there about loving myself.

I can't see any reference to toleration of evil people in it, and as far as enjoying seeing the wrong in other people I can't see that in it either, well, not in the three Bibles at my disposal.
I fail to see what you are driving at? Sounds kind of familiar, what sounds kind of familiar?
Maybe you're above my head, could you try and make it a bit, no not bit but a lot simpler?

Peace! :egyptdance: :ilu: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :ilu:

Roy  UK

[Molly]

..you have left your first love.

Isn't that what Adam did?

Where are you? (Gen 3)

[Nathan]

Roy, are you aware of the passage that speaks about those being in outer darkness and they argued "but we cast out demons in your name . .we prophesied in your name . . ." on and on but the response simply was "depart from me I never knew you . . ."  The church in Revelation . .to me . . .is this same group.  Their identity was more in their ministry to remove tares than to plant wheat.

To look at it the traditional way . . .what you're saying then is . .no matter how good you are, Jesus will always find something wrong with you . . .I just don't see that way anymore.  I think Jesus was leading up to the fact that they lost their first love, by identifying what they gave that first love up for . . .it was their works . . their concern to prove that everyone else was false and they were right.  We've said all along, for those who walk in the spirit . . .it's not about right or wrong . . .its about being as One.

The other comment about sounding familiar was a cheap shot on my part . . .I was not in the best of moods yesterday, I apologize for that.  I need to do a better job at keeping those kinds of things in check.  :sigh:

[Roy Monis]

So they are dead for over 2000 years, Adam and Eve are dead for much, much longer but we are still very much alive, so what use is all that tripe in the Bible to us let's throw the lot out the window. Is that what you're saying? 'Tis true we can't see the spiritual, you've just thrown it out the window, now no one can see it whether dead or alive. Good going

You're not the first to receive it in this light.  I never said the Bible is no longer of any use to us.  I'm saying . ..say when Paul instructed the women of the church to be silent and let the men receive from the Pastor and then take it home to the wives and let the wives receive the seed from the husbands . . . .do you think that we're to take "that" literally?  No, it was for THAT church setting .  . .THAT group of people in THAT day.  The spirit breathes on his Word . .including the Bible, there's no doubt about that and I'm not trying to take your Bible away.

What I'm trying to do is identify with you that there is a reason for this call to come out of the church.  It's not so that we can become independant in our own thinking . . but it's to call us to a higher understanding . . .a deeper relationship that organized churches have shot themselves in the foot with because they've drawn out boundaries in their beliefs, not allowing them to see a new anything.  So, the church programs can turn people into cattle and the day of farm labor is over . . . it went out with the end of the 6th day.

There's more to this  . .to me . .than just quitting church.  It's not about what you're leaving, it's about "why" did God call you out?  He never takes anything from you unless he's got something better waiting.  So . . .which is it?  Am I supposed to make sure no women teach?  No women are allowed to preach?  Only men can be anointed by God when it comes to ministering to adults?

I don't want to "assume" your answers . . . I get accused of bad things already . . . but in my experience, I have not come across one person that feels that this passage of Scripture pertains to me.  So what then?  Do we just throw it out?  Was it not also inspired by God?  And this is just my point in all of this.  We'll say "no, that part was just for them, the church they had was brand-new and they didn't have any established way of handling things then so Paul had to teach them how to conduct themselves." 

So IF that part isn't supposed to be applied literally . . .then where does it end?  Are we to leave it up to ourselves as to what verse is taken literally and what verse isn't?  And I believe that's just what we "have" done . . .which is another reason why there are so many different denominations.  Everybody has their own version of how to apply it literally.  So . . .it occurred to me one day . . .what if NONE of it is to be taken literally . .like . . .in the same manner  they received it when it was written to them.

Now, people are telling me I'm saying you should throw the Bible out and beings those people are all dead, the Bible is dead as well . . . come on . .think about your accusations.  I'm a pastor for pitty sake . . .I preach out of the Bible EVERY Sunday . .so why would I then say it's useless?  I'm not saying that at all.  I'm not even saying that by applying it literally to your own life, that it's not effective . . .what I "am" saying is . . .there's so much MORE to it than just what's on the surface.

So, if I'm not to apply that passage about women being silent literally . . .how "do" I apply it?  Ha!  So glad you asked :cloud9:  You apply it "spiritually"  (big surprise!)  What is the spiritual picture with that passage?  Well, the man is your spirit, the woman is your mind . . .the woman is to remain silent so the spirit can receive the Word of Truth and then, as the mind is in submission to the spirit . . .the original order of our Genesis, Truth can then be birthed into our understanding . . .my mind is my womb.

So I quit picking what is and what isn't to be applied literally, and I've chosen to pursue all of it on the same plain . . .spiritually.  And from there, other things begin to manifest.  Jesus said his words are "spirit".  Nothing of what he stated was intended to be taken literally.  The disciples took him literally . . .they still thought that he was literally going to be King of Israel.  Well, if the Word was the beginning . . .the Word was with God . . .and the word WAS/IS God. . .then if we weren't to take Jesus words literally, why are we embracing the written word literally?

Again, I am not saying there is absolutely no room for literal understanding . . .I'm saying that the literal piece is just a stepping stone to lead you into the spiritual piece.  When I walk in the spirit, I see it's not about being right or wrong . . .I see that this kind of thinking is connected to the tree of knowledge of "good" and "evil".  Living in that tree, one always must define black from white, up from down, left from right . . .in the tree of life . . . both in balance are "good."  Both "bring" balance, which is . ."Good."

Dear Brother Nathan

I find your reply of 26/08/08 very interesting indeed and would like to read it carefully and reply. Please forgive my foolish attempt at sarcasm it was out of order and your response has truly humbled me. It is getting very late here and I'm pretty tired so I'll rest it till tomorrow if God so wills.

Thank you and I'll be back God willing.

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy   UK.

Hi! Nathan

Allow me first and foremost to congratulate you on your brave move and stance for the True Gospel of Jesus Christ - Salvation For All Mankind. It is hard enough for the ordinary lay person like myself to break away from tradition and years of indoctrination in the Babylonian culture, to answer the call to "I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities." (Rev.18:4-5), but for someone like you a pastor it must have been truly very difficult indeed. You're a very brave man if I may say so without inflating your ego. 

I am very interested in what you have to say here and would like very much to go into it in depth with you but first i must ascertain that we are on the same wavelength and have the same beliefs. If you have no objection to a bit of a quiz please give me your views on;
1).....Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only Begotten Son born of the Father or do you
        believe that He is a mere created being, a creature?  I'm talking about Christ/Son of God.
2)......Have you got proof that Elohim is plural for the Father/God?
3)......Do you believe that the Father is Sovereign and that man has no free-will as such
         without a causation.

Brother you could be the answer to my prayer. I look forward to you response. You can PM me if you so wish.

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK   

[Nathan]

#1 . . .yes.  I've never seen him as a creation of God . . . and at the same time, I've never seen the purpose to articulate as much between the two as I've seen you do.  It's obviously a passion of yours and I do respect that.  For me, there is a created image of Christ that pretty much everyone has been a part of at one time or another.  But I'm also VERY much aware in my own experience that Truth and interpretation of truth are usually lightyears apart.  So, in my eyes, there is the begotten Son, and there are interpretations of the Son.  I think it's the same language as you, you call it a created Christ, I call it an interpretation of Christ . . . the end results are the same.  I "think" that's where you're coming from with that.

#2 . . .as far as I understand . . .yes.  From what I understand, Elohim is a plural Hebrew word from what the dictionaries and Strongs suggest . . . it's plural.  Now, do I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate entities?  No.  Just as my body, soul and spirit make up who "I" am, I see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three components that make up "Love".  So . ..whether "Elohim" is or isn't plural, again, it's not a huge factor to me as Jesus made it about as plain as you can get . .he and the Father are One.

#3 . . . yes.  I do fully believe God is sovreign.  There is only one God, one Lord, one Light.  As to the free will of man . . .ugh!
 
I believe God has put his order "in" man, and it's man's decision as to whether or not he wishes to walk in that order, or walk in his own.
 
I believe Adam's purpose was to do what he did, so that Christ could manifest on the earth, as he is in heaven.  And as we are all born of the first Adam, we also are in need of redemption.  Acknowledging the cross now . . .to me . . .is activating all that I am into this realm now.  Rejecting the cross, leaves the freedom from the power of sin in a state of dormancy.  I do have a choice . . .keeping in mind that none can come to the cross by their own choice alone, they must first be called. 

See, that one's not a fair question . . .there's so much more to it than just a yes or no.  I believe you have the freedom to choose . .to make decisions, to do what you will. 

I also believe that you do not have a choice as to where you end up in the end. 

If I choose Christ willingly, then that changes everything.  Because "then" Christ is working in me, both to will, and to do his good pleasure.  He changes my "want to" so that I don't "want" to do whatever my flesh desires . .This is when God begins his work in setting the stage in my life experiences to get me into his will . . .it's because I've already invited him in to be Lord of my life . .I gave him permission to set me up unknowningly.  Before I asked him in my heart, he was just a hand, knocking on a door . . .but once I invited him in, that gave him permission to create, from the invisible realm, situations that would prod and nudge me into places where he want's me to be.

That's the one thing so many people over look when I preach freedom.  If someone is addicted to sex . . .let them go . .don't condemn them . . .you think they don't already know it's not good?  And if they do think it's good . . .then it's clearly not the time for you to plant in them anyway.

But the point is, sex is like every other "sin".  It isn't as big of an evil as our minds . .our religious minds make it out to be.  Am I saying that I think it's okay to sleep with whoever turns you on?  No . .. I'm saying that "when" you pursue Christ and stop focusing on the flesh . .HE changes the desires within you. . . it's "his" work . .not yours/mine.  See?  I told you this wasn't a fair question . . .

I don't think it was God's will that Cain should kill his brother.  But God didn't intervein when Cain did kill Abel.  That's why I asked the question earlier about why don't we see Baptist's experiencing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  I believe God honors our decisions, even if it means we're in for a life of bondage and hardship as a result.

But I also believe there has been a over-all plan from the beginning that no man could ever change.  There is a predestined plan for every one of us.  No matter if I think I'm going in the opposite direction on purpose . .it will still lead to where he wants me to be in the end.  So in that sense, no, you don't have free will.  And "that's" a good thing.

I was doing so good at keeping this simple . .until your last question.  sigh . . .

[Molly]

So if a man is addicted to porn and it's ruining his marriage and thereby hurting his wife and thereby hurting his kids, and he comes to you for advice, or she comes to you for advice, your advice is to tell them to pursue Christ?  You don't mention anything about right or wrong, good or bad?

Just asking..

[Taffy]

So if a man is addicted to porn and it's ruining his marriage and thereby hurting his wife and thereby hurting his kids, and he comes to you for advice, or she comes to you for advice, your advice is to tell them to pursue Christ?  You don't mention anything about right or wrong, good or bad?

Just asking..

HI Molly....didnt paul say all things are permitted but not all is beneficial?

we reap what we sow Molly,..for instance,  say we remarry, to some one who was once married himself....what comes with That is Baggage,..the baggage of what went before...ya get Nothing for FREE,....

so, what would one say in the scenario you mentioned...as I tell my 17 premiscouos( spelling) daughter.."""my dear, you will reap what you sow.."" and in lifes course you will learn.....life is learnt this way Molly , through experience ...

we can not learn for others...my wife and I have endeavoured from when they were young to teach ,if you will right from wrong...but heck Molly there kids


maybe you forgot you too were once an Ignorant Child..how soon we forget when we Look out wards to Others and forge twhat WE ONCE WERE ,OR MAYBE IN SOMEWAYS """"STILL ARE""""""

get off the Righteous pedastal Molly.....you may feel less stressful for it...

[Molly]

It may be true that one can not always learn from another--although a hallmark of the human race is precisely its ability to learn in this manner--this still doesn't mean that one should not continue to speak the truth, assuming one knows the truth.

So I'm just asking him--do you speak the truth to these people?  Do you tell both the husband and wife that what he is doing--i.e. harming the family--is wrong?

Or, do you not consider behavior that is spefically prohibited in the Bible 'wrong,' just a bump in the road from which we all learn eventually, assuming we survive it?

I see fewer and fewer of these voices out there, mostly because people do not like to be attacked, as just happened to me for asking.

[laren]

So a guy goes out after being told to quit looking at porn, and tries really really hard.  he lasts 3 months.  Wow, look at me; God must be really pleased.  Then he fails, guilt, condemnation, failure.  So sorry God, so sorry.  Climbs back on, and on he goes until failure again. 

and we call that LIFE.


the problem I see is the focus is on behavior, moving from point A to point B, and the means to it is prayer and the Holy Spirit.

rather than

the focus on relationship the prize, HIM/LIFE

[Taffy]

It may be true that one can not always learn from another--although a hallmark of the human race is precisely its ability to learn in this manner--this still doesn't mean that one should not continue to speak the truth, assuming one knows the truth.

So I'm just asking him--do you speak the truth to these people?  Do you tell both the husband and wife that what he is doing--i.e. harming the family--is wrong?

Or, do you not consider behavior that is spefically prohibited in the Bible 'wrong,' just a bump in the road from which we all learn eventually, assuming we survive it?

I see fewer and fewer of these voices out there, mostly because people do not like to be attacked, as just happened to me for asking.

Molly ..oh heck to calling ya Molly...ya be just another statistic from now on... :laughing7:

Its a Fallacy , that we learn from the mistakes of made before ..track back History to the Ho chi  min trail in veitnam,,those dull yanks learnt NOTHING from the FRENCH ,WHO TOO ,MADE THE SAME ERROR...thaats Just one example

Gosh ,..we have FOUR teenage Children..what do you think weve instilled in these we love for the last two decades?

we LEARN or we die...sounds harsh ,but to me in the last 47 yrs..that seems to be the case ..again Molly we reap what we sow..right now My dear wife is in anguish seeing our eldest  the way she is..but she HAS to let go...all children are HIS...we just have them on lease hire....

Just accept HE knows what HES doing..even if for a season we aint got a Clue....letting Go, doesnt mean we dont CARE or wish for the best for them..who ever they are...Ya Just Got to CUT Wilson Loose...when the time Comes

[Taffy]

So a guy goes out after being told to quit looking at porn, and tries really really hard.  he lasts 3 months.  Wow, look at me; God must be really pleased.  Then he fails, guilt, condemnation, failure.  So sorry God, so sorry.  Climbs back on, and on he goes until failure again. 

and we call that LIFE.


the problem I see is the focus is on behavior, moving from point A to point B, and the means to it is prayer and the Holy Spirit.

rather than

the focus on relationship the prize, HIM/LIFE

hey bro

I know for a FACT you speak from the heart after reading this.....I recall the Laren of old...

and AMEN to your words :icon_flower:

[Molly]

So a guy goes out after being told to quit looking at porn, and tries really really hard.  he lasts 3 months.  Wow, look at me; God must be really pleased.  Then he fails, guilt, condemnation, failure.  So sorry God, so sorry.  Climbs back on, and on he goes until failure again. 

and we call that LIFE.


the problem I see is the focus is on behavior, moving from point A to point B, and the means to it is prayer and the Holy Spirit.

rather than

the focus on relationship the prize, HIM/LIFE

Not exactly.  I didn't say to judge them.  I said to tell them what is right and what is wrong according to God.  You would be amazed at what a great relief this can be, especially to the victim who might think she is losing her mind and everything she thought was right or wrong is upsidedown.

Just state the truth.  Having said that, don't reward what is wrong.  This is why Paul tells us to cut loose from company of those following the darkness.  What communion does light have with darkness?  Take a wife with a cheating husband, for instance--someone who is lying to her constantly, exposing her to disease--what advice would you give?

Taffy--you are talking about a different case--parent of teenagers.  You have my deepest sympathies (four of them)!

I think you are taking the right approach since the job of teenagers is to push against their parents--sometimes, the harder you push, the harder they push back.  You seem to be dealing with it very wisely, and in a moderate fashion.

But, the one I asked this question of is a pastor.  And, I asked the question about adults.

Jesus himself says, Go and sin no more.

[Taffy]

I think you are taking the right approach since the job of teenagers is to push against their parents--sometimes, the harder you push, the harder they push back.  You seem to be dealing with it very wisely, and in a moderate fashion.

But, the one I asked this question of is a pastor.  And, I asked the question about adults.

all born 18 months apart..two boys and Two girls.


as the Your question is posed to Nathan then for sure let Him answer,,but sis, I too have one also,,..Nat first .

[Molly]

2and he taught them:

    3God blesses those people

   who depend only on him.

   They belong to the kingdom

   of heaven!  4God blesses those people

   who grieve.

   They will find comfort!

    5God blesses those people

   who are humble.

   The earth will belong

   to them!

    6God blesses those people

   who want to obey him  more than to eat or drink.

   They will be given

   what they want!

    7God blesses those people

   who are merciful.

   They will be treated

   with mercy!

    8God blesses those people

   whose hearts are pure.

   They will see him!

    9God blesses those people

   who make peace.

   They will be called

   his children!

    10God blesses those people

   who are treated badly

   for doing right.

   They belong to the kingdom

   of heaven.

--Mat 5

[Roy Monis]

OK Roy.

My trains a rollin , (http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/locomotion/trains/train002.gif)The real Smilie King is back Im Town Bro,Time to flex my smilie Muscles(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d050.gif)Your riegn is over my Brit Bro,,,time to move over(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d257.gif)and I mean Business man!(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d245.gif)the Boys in Blue are out for you too,your finished man(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d242.gif)and if they dont get ya...ive a few friends of me own(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/perso3d/3d222.gif)so take this taxi while ya can and git out me town(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/locomotion/voitures/voitu047.gif)

Good one Taff

I'm a runnin, brother! Where on earth did you get all them nasty graphics from? I sure could do with some.

The puff, puff is not a rollin; mussel man looks awesome; karate kid is going to do himself or the delightful bird an injury; the baddie is a shootin the stupid cop; so thanks, I won't be needing the taxi. CANCEL it.   

Have a nice day, brother you have just been crowned  :icon_king: :icon_king:over Willie and M??????e

Peace!

Roy. the new  :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

[Taffy]

(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/muscles.gif)(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif)

Hey Roy..Ill post a Thread listing a load of smilies :icon_flower:, we can all be Kings together :icon_joker:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/bananalama.gif)

[Roy Monis]

I agree Roy,

Let us say Jesus is not the Son of God, but just a man (Not that I am not stating that, just removing this proposition for a moment).

God would also be the Beginning and the End. Yet, God has no beginning or end, so how can that be?  Being that all things begin with Him and all things end with Him, He is the Beginning and the End. Just as you stated, it is a misunderstanding of the language they are speaking. It is a philosophical point of the reality He created, not the a characteristic of his nature. As Paul said concerning the Greeks as their poets said, "In Him we live and move and have our being." Everything begins with Him and everthing ends with Him, He is creations Beginning and End.

Now return Jesus to being the Son of God, all things begin with Him and all things end with Him, He is God made manifest in the flesh, not created but formed like Woman was taken from Adam and later named Eve, The Word was taken from God and later named Jesus. A difficult concept for people to understand that Jesus literally is God as much as he was a man.

Hi! SOtW

That is what I'm saying brother, all things are in God the Father including the Son, ONE GOD. At the consummation of the ages all will return to God including the Son, then God will be ALL IN ALL.   "For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."  (1Cor.15:27-28).

When the Son has completed the will of His Father and put all creation including death under His feet, then He, the Son, will hand all His work to the Father and subject Himself to the Father's Sovereign authority and power so that God/Father becomes ALL in ALL, ONE GOD.

For the Son to be able to hand all the things He has created including us to the Father then He himself must of necessity be Someone apart from that creation, such as the Creator of it.

Hence we worship the Creator God and not the creature of creation.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK.

[Roy Monis]

No, brother. The Beginning is a noun meaning, the Beginner, the Creator. For a start notice the "B" in upper case, now along side of the beginning you see a small letter or figure referring you to the centre column reference where you'll be referred to (Col.1:15). Here you are told that He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, and not the firstcreated being, a mere creature.

Does that help brother, antichrist turns and twists words and phrases to suit his purpose that's why we are so sternly warned to beware of him. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance." (Matt.24:24-25). False teachers are false prophets.

So, you admit that Jesus was the firstborn?  That makes Jesus the firstborn of all living and the firstborn of all the dead. Do you agree with this?  If so, that makes Jesus the beginning, or Beginning, doesn't matter, he was first.

CHB

Hi! CHB

Yes! I admit that the Christ/Word/Son was the firstborn before creation, the Creator of all creation and that Jesus Christ was the firstborn of all the dead. Yes Jesus Christ was the first to be born, the Creator. Jesus Christ is first of all things, He is the head, He is the Creator of all things, so it stands to reason that He must be first.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK       

[Roy Monis]

Um . . .all due respect Roy, I don't mean to offend you either, but I elect to decline your proposal.  The reason is not to be rebellious against you or God, but to make a point.  It's the very thing we have been talking about on many different topics.  We claim we are free from the laws of man and we are not confined to the standards of other people in their views of God . . .and in the same breath, I'm asked to capitalize my pronouns whenever I'm refering to God?  Isn't that kind of the opposite of living free from the law?

I meant no disrespect in what ever words you saw that I didn't capitalize and I mean no disrespect by not coming under your advisement.  But if we're free "in" Christ, to me, that would include "having" to capitlize pronouns, right along with having to wear a suit in church, having to wear a tie, having to not do this, or have to do that . . .  Personally, I wear bluejeans every Sunday . .mainly because that's my personality . .I'm a blue-collar follower of Christ.  Anymore, the only times I break out the suits is for weddings or funerals . . .and there've been a couple weddings where I didn't even do "that".   :icon_king:

AMEN. 

I have a friend who told me she was offended if someone referred to God as "daddy" or "dad".  I think it is so easy to project human perception onto God, as if God's view of us changed based on what we do. 

Hi! Laren

It appears that I have offended you brother, none was intended, but I apologize. I agree God is the judge.

But little things like that, of no consequence to man, are of importance to God, after all is said and done He is our God. Call Roy, roy; Nathan nathan; Taffy taffy; Molly molly; it's not nice but we are just human carnal beasts and it all goes by the board. But should we not exercise much greater care when dealing with our Sovereign Almighty God? Now you be the judge of yourself. 
" 'A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?' says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, 'How have we despised Your name?' "You are presenting defiled food upon My altar. But you say, 'How have we defiled You?' In that you say, 'The table of the Lord is to be despised.' "But when you present the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Why not offer it to your governor? Would he be pleased with you? Or would he receive you kindly?" says the Lord of hosts. "But now will you not entreat God's favor, that He may be gracious to us? With such an offering on your part, will He receive any of you kindly?" says the Lord of hosts."  (Mal.1:6-9).

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[Taffy]

" 'A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?' says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, 'How have we despised Your name?' "You are presenting defiled food upon My altar. But you say, 'How have we defiled You?' In that you say, 'The table of the Lord is to be despised.' "But when you present the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Why not offer it to your governor? Would he be pleased with you? Or would he receive you kindly?" says the Lord of hosts. "But now will you not entreat God's favor, that He may be gracious to us? With such an offering on your part, will He receive any of you kindly?" says the Lord of hosts."

Bro Roy, I do deeply agree with Both Laren and Nathan , and your quote from Malachi has nothing to do with what Both proposed.

The Rebuke were to the Priests for ROBBING the storehouses , using poor quality produce for the temple and sacrifices...which were symbolic of Christ...they indeed ,were keeping the Best for themselves , therefore bringing DISHONOR to God .

It really has nothing to do with capping Pronouns bro....BUT if you find me a scripture which states this otherwise...i may reconsider...

for mine, its all to MUCH religion and MANS attempt TO BE RIGHTEOUS...WHICH WE both KNOW , self - righteousness is but filthy rags bro..so I have get my gun down..and shoot you OK :laughing7: :laughing7:      (http://deephousepage.com/smilies/AR15firing.gif)

[Roy Monis]

how do we love our enemy if we are not to love the things of the world??

Hi! Laren

You love your brother, my friend. Your so-called enemy is also your brother and you must love your brother whether he is in or out of the world. That's how.!

Peace!

Roy  UKurl=h[ttp://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/681/681483u7y91w3fyi.gif)[/url]

If someone approached you and offered you a beer, or wine, or mixed drink . . .would you take it?  Or would you explain to them nicely that it's an abomination against God to defile your body with such things?

Hi! Nathan

I don't quite understand the point of your question. You'd make a good politician, always beating round the bush and never getting to the point.

If what you mean is; if a stranger came along and offered me a beer, wine, lemonade would I take it? Well, if I fancied a beer, wine or lemonade and could afford to return the same, I wouldn't want to offend my brother and refuse, yes, I'd take it.

On the other hand I wouldn't be so rude as to impose my belief on to him, I'd just politely refuse. "No thank you, but thank you for the your kind offer" in reply is all it would need. After all what has what I believe got to do with him, he's a very kind person, a brother and I'd enjoy a chat with him, if he so wished.

Does that answer you or is there some mystery behind the question?

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK