Can you explain?

[Nathan]

Hi! Nathan

Let's be a bit more specific, brother, who are we talking about that's being judgmental. First and foremost what on earth has Hagee got to do with the topic "Can You Explain?" absolutely nothing as far as I can see, so why are we discussing him here, why not start a new topic on him that will suit your purpose better and not confuse this issue

I referred to it because it was in response to a previous post by someone who used him as an example . . .I didn't start that discussion, I just commented on it.  Sorry you're confused.

[Nathan]

This thread is six pages long . . .you went all the way back to the third page to ask that now??? :mshock:

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Taffy

This is he question you want answering: "Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

Have I ever anywhere denied that Jesus Christ is the faithful witness and the first born of the dead? No, brother I have not. I have stressed that the true Jesus Christ that I'm supporting is the only Begotten of the Father from the beginning long before He was resurrected and became the only Begotten of the dead, the Saviour/God of the dead. Yes, this is the Jesus I'm talking about He is not a different Jesus, but He is not your created Christ, He is the legitimately Born Son of God. "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." (Matt.10:32-33).

Not one sided, brother, here is your answer. "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me"? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Heb.1:5).

The first time the Word was given birth to was the beginning of creation, the earth did not exist for whatever period 5 creation days or ages amounts to. On the 6th day the earth was created and then several millennium later the Word/Son of God in the prepared body was implanted into Mary by the Holy Spirit. Now let's pay attention to the words. When He again brings the first Born/Word/Jesus Christ into the WORLD, our world, the carnal world.

The first time the Word was The Son of the Father and not Jesus. When the Word entered the body, which was prepared for Him, He was given birth to again (a second time) as Jesus Christ/the Word/the Son of God. "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me ;" (Heb.10:5). 

Not one sided brother your question is answered.

Peace!url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)[/url]

Roy

[Taffy]

Thanks Roy.

B blessed :icon_flower:

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Brother SOtW

Absolutely, brother, have I at anytime disagreed with your quote?: "Each person is judged in accordance to what they built/planted, (1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 6:7-8) and in the Day of Judgment what they built/planted is either a) saved or b) destroyed but it is by the Grace of God, that regardless whatever a person gained or lost, that they are saved (1 Corinthians 3:15, Hebrews 6:9).

What brought that up?

It was a clarification, not an issue of agreement or disagreement to prevent you from assuming I said something I did not.

What brought it up was earlier in this response to me: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3153.25 when you brought up Saddam.

Would you disagree if I were to say that Saddam would need longer in the purification process than you or I, surely we don't need as much as him? I can't see what all the nitpicking over a simple word can achieve? Can you?

Yes I would disagree, because only God knows the heart of man and their disposition to repentance when wrong has been been identified. We do not know the process duration because it is aionios, not aidios. There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

Hi! SOtW

Do you believe that a blanket." Sorry Lord I have committed an abundance of atrocities of insane torture and taken great pleasure from watching them suffer. Forgive me!" will set him free of all chastisement? Be real brother, I don't mean any disrespect. You and I have repented of our sins but none as vicious as our friend Saddam, yet we will undergo chastisement till we are perfect. God is the final judge I fully agree, but I think a little bit of carnal commonsense would be in order here. Don't you or the emphasis put on the meaning of grace can run amok?

Peace!url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)[/url]

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

AMEN :icon_flower:

Hi! Taffy

You keep coming up with some weird statements "simple word except by those who continue to deny[/b"

What is the simple word that I'm continually denying? Let's have the offending word and then let us analyse it. Should we do that? I'm not claiming to be perfect, I could very easily be wrong and will admit it and apologize for the error, but let's prove it.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy

[Craig]

Yes I would disagree, because only God knows the heart of man and their disposition to repentance when wrong has been been identified. We do not know the process duration because it is aionios, not aidios. There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

Hi! SOtW

Do you believe that a blanket." Sorry Lord I have committed an abundance of atrocities of insane torture and taken great pleasure from watching them suffer. Forgive me!" will set him free of all chastisement? Be real brother, I don't mean any disrespect. You and I have repented of our sins but none as vicious as our friend Saddam, yet we will undergo chastisement till we are perfect. God is the final judge I fully agree, but I think a little bit of carnal commonsense would be in order here. Don't you or the emphasis put on the meaning of grace can run amok?

Peace!url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)[/url]

Roy   UK

You are not understanding my position, because I am one of the few in this forum who does believe in an afterlife punishment, there is no such thing, or very rare thing as a deathbed repentance one's actions after a life-time of wickedness people like Saddam did. Since Saddam did not repent in this life he most definitely is being sent into aionios punishment. What type of punishment that is, how long it lasts, is dependent upon God's providence. If God in His plan makes this to be a blanket, then that is how God wanted it to be; if God in His plan makes this to be reliving his same life but with different choices, then that is how God wanted it to be. We do not know Saddam's heart, God takes everything into account when He renders His Judgment, so this is why I disagree with you. God judges those who are on the outside.

[Roy Monis]

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

"Beginning of the creation of God" is sorta like "God's Creative Original" in the Concordant Literal New Testament.  You can read a contradiction to the rest of the Scriptures into it, if you wish, but it's just saying that He began God's Creation just as it says in John's Gospel, Colossians, and Hebrews.

Hi! Martin

I hope I'm not being too forward abbreviating your name, I like the name Martin much better and easier to handle than Martincisneros which is quite a mouthful   :hammerhead: :hammerhead: LOL the meaning of which my friend Joyce made me aware.

I agree with you Martin. The Word began the Father's creative work but who is the Word? Is he a created being and as such a part of the creation, a creature, or is he the legitimately Begotten Son of God, as it says in (John 1:1-3), GOD, who is doing the creating the CREATOR? That's the question and that's the difference. Are we worshiping the creature an idol or are we worshiping the CREATOR/GOD?

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy   UK

[laren]

So was the prodigal son and the son who stayed by the Fathers side saved the same way? 

Both were given the gift (gift of grace imo), one stayed faithful;

grace is only accessed by faith

the other squandered it (fell from grace) and was saved through fire. 

Hi! Laren

Saved by Fire that is chastisement, in short saved by grace.

Peace!it.url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)[/url]

Roy   UK

for me, I see it as accessing grace is only through faith.  so we don't receive chastisement unless given faith, and the trial by fire for those accessing grace by faith is the trial of their faith.  

those stuck in the mindest of "law" are saved through fire/destruction, and is not imo, by accessing grace via faith.  It's the result of not having accessed grace via faith.  


for me, along with what i posted in the LOF thread, I see fire by destruction (brimstone) as different than fiery trial by faith

[laren]

 


Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.


Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.



Hbr 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 

[WhiteWings]

What type of punishment that is, how long it lasts, is dependent upon God's providence. If God in His plan makes this to be a blanket, then that is how God wanted it to be; if God in His plan makes this to be reliving his same life but with different choices, then that is how God wanted it to be. We do not know Saddam's heart, God takes everything into account when He renders His Judgment, so this is why I disagree with you. God judges those who are on the outside.

Yep Craig. And even more; God tries to find every reason/excuse to pass the mildest possible judgement.

Matthew 11:20-24 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:  21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.  22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.  23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.  24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

[Nathan]

Again, to read the spiritual picture of this. . .the wicked is not people . . .it's my carnality.  My carnal man is going to have snares, fire and brimstone rain down on it.

This is really the difference between reading it by how we were once taught, and reading by the leading of the spirit.  The spiritual rendition is taking the word to the inner man . .not to the men of the physical earth.

In the New Testament there's a famous passage that traditionalists quote to back-up their rapture theories and such . .it deals with the fact that in the last days there is to be a great falling from God . . .they profess this is dealing with the world population leaving the church and denying God . .which falls in with their "mark of the beast" theology.

But again, we are spirit beings, this is a spirit word that's intended to be taken spiritually.  It's saying the same things we've been saying in most of our conversations in one form or another . .the falling away is not men, but "man".  My old man . . .the falling away is actually the outbreak of the Light and Truth being exposed to the hearts of all men . .this will cause a great falling away of the old man. 

If there is any form of fear in the message, chances are, it's a misinterpreted message.  The kingdom Jesus preached was one of hope, promise and power.  The message the church preaches is one of commandments, warnings and despair.  It's no wonder people are quitting on the church.  I would to if I weren't the Pastor of one.

[Roy Monis]

willieH: Hi Laren... :hithere:

Sorry for veering  :offtopic: ...and I dont mean to  :hijacked:

BUT... I agree with Sotw... this is an awesome verse, and I have used myself many times while discussing ET with its believers!

Psa 30:5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

THIS LIFE, ...IS... the Lake of Fire...

That WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven... (Rom 1:18)  ...IN THIS LIFE...

The JUDGEMENT ...IS... NOW (John 12:31) ...IN THIS LIFE...

Our lives are but a VAPOR, which appears for a SHORT TIME (a moment NOW), then vanishes away... (James 4:14) ...IN THIS LIFE...

The "BOOKS" of our lives are OPEN "BOOKS", before Him NOW (Rev 20:12) ...IN THIS LIFE...

DEATH and the GRAVE are involved with us NOW! (Rev  20:14)! ...IN THIS LIFE...

I love this  :happygrin: :



(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)


Hope you dont mind me using them Roy...  :happy3:

PeacE...
...willieH  :icon_king:

Hi! willieH   :icon_joker:   :Shoot:  :bdh:

At last we meet!  No longer are you the icon king, you're talking to your successor who has just dethroned you.   :swordfight:

But I agree with you all the way there, we the chosen are being judged here and now in this world, I learned that at BT and I believe it, Judgment must start at the House of God..
[](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)
(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)
Roy   UK
The NEW :icon_king:

[Taffy]

I am one of the few in this forum who does believe in an afterlife punishment

Amen..I to am another :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Ok, what does this mean?


2 Thess 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[Craig]

What type of punishment that is, how long it lasts, is dependent upon God's providence. If God in His plan makes this to be a blanket, then that is how God wanted it to be; if God in His plan makes this to be reliving his same life but with different choices, then that is how God wanted it to be. We do not know Saddam's heart, God takes everything into account when He renders His Judgment, so this is why I disagree with you. God judges those who are on the outside.

Yep Craig. And even more; God tries to find every reason/excuse to pass the mildest possible judgement.

I would not say mildest possible judgment, most effective and efficient judgment which originates from God, who is Love. Be rest assured, if you are not already, that God's judgment comes a holy purpose and if He causes grief in order to bring correction, it is repaid surpassingly in measure to His everlasting Love. Remember God knows exactly what changes people, there is no trial or error, so there is no unnecessary pain or suffering and when it is done there is great joy and happiness.

[WhiteWings]

What type of punishment that is, how long it lasts, is dependent upon God's providence. If God in His plan makes this to be a blanket, then that is how God wanted it to be; if God in His plan makes this to be reliving his same life but with different choices, then that is how God wanted it to be. We do not know Saddam's heart, God takes everything into account when He renders His Judgment, so this is why I disagree with you. God judges those who are on the outside.

Yep Craig. And even more; God tries to find every reason/excuse to pass the mildest possible judgement.

I would not say mildest possible judgment, most effective and efficient judgment which originates from God, who is Love. Be rest assured, if you are not already, that God's judgment comes a holy purpose and if He causes grief in order to bring correction, it is repaid surpassingly in measure to His everlasting Love. Remember God knows exactly what changes people, there is no trial or error, so there is no unnecessary pain or suffering and when it is done there is great joy and happiness.

So in army speak: A surgical strike instead of carpet bombing.
If you agree with that I was saying the same thing. I'm just nos a poetic with words as you are Craig :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Ok, what does this mean?


2 Thess 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Hi Molly

Care to tell what you think? :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

AMEN :icon_flower:

Hi! Taffy

You keep coming up with some weird statements "simple word except by those who continue to deny[/b"

What is the simple word that I'm continually denying? Let's have the offending word and then let us analyse it. Should we do that? I'm not claiming to be perfect, I could very easily be wrong and will admit it and apologize for the error, but let's prove it.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy

Greetings Bro Roy

Please excuse me for not reponding to your last post as such..I just saw  no point continuing to go round in circles bro..please be free to beleive what you wish.

as for this

We do not know the process duration because it is aionios, not aidios. There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

I was in agreement with Craig....thats why he proposes what he did, along with Laren( myself inc if ya wish)..its a PERIOD of TIME,..but your saying Sadam and the Like are going to be there a LONG time, in so , for me,your inferring to greater sin.

In a Post earlier I did mention PAUL...was there any worse than HIM,?...if ya well read at Bts, im sure ya learnt that from there..and The power above converted HIM in moments...thats the basics of what some have been saying.

Does that Clear it now brother? :icon_flower:

[Roy Monis]

Roy Monis,

My head is spinning with all of this created or begotten stuff. What the heck do you mean?

My son was begotten by my husband and I, and he was also created. I don't see the difference. Are you talking about pre-existence? Do you believe we must believe in Jesus's pre-existence to be legitimate? Is that the pivotal belief?

Hi! Sarah

You're perfectly correct your son was born of you but Who created you, your husband and son? Was it not God? So you are a part of the creation of God as I am and the rest of humanity. Do you agree? If you agree that it was God who created all things as it says in the Scriptures then it matters a great deal to know who this God is.

This is the God who created you and all things."Then God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before Me. "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:1-5). Do you believe this Sarah?

This is the God I am talking about, the only Begotten Son of the Father. He is the Word spoken of in "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). It says here very clearly that all things came into being through Him.

We must bear in mind that Created and Begotten do not have the same meaning.

The meaning of Created in accord with the Strong's Concordance is #1254 in the Hebrew is to make, to create, creator, something that only God can do.

The meaning of Created in accord with the Strong's Concordance is #2936 in the Greek is to create, creator, to make.

Both the Hebrew and Greek give just one number for the word create and both translations are the same.

The meaning of Begat/Begotten in accord with the Strong's Concordance is #3205 in the Hebrew
to bear young, to beget, to be born, to bring forth, to give birth, to hatch.

The meaning of Begat/Begotten in accord with the Strong's Concordance is #1080 in the Greek.
to begat, to be born, to bear, to bring forth, to conceive,

Now Sarah you can see very plainly that Created and Begotten are not the same. you did not create your son you gave birth to Him, remember only God can create. Your son has the character traits of both you and your husband, he is not the same as either of you, he is unique with an DNA of his very own.

Now consider the case of the Father/God and the Word His son who we are told is in His bosom from the beginning; "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:18). There is only one parent the Father so the Son/Word will have the identical character traits of the Father by right of parentage, He is a snapshot identical image of the Father, but subject to the Father by virtue of being the Son. In my opinion this is the God, Jesus Christ, who we must worship, the one born of the Father.

To worship a created Jesus is to worship a created being, an idol which is against the very first commandment of God. Now do you see what I'm about.

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)   

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

Hi Roy, I'm late to this discussion, but you are saying that the Jesus speaking in Rev.3 is the anti-Christ and not the Christ.

So we are to disregard all the things he said concerning the churches? 

Are you sure its not your understanding of the scriptures that cause you to see Rev.3 as being of the anti Christ?

You base this on where it say "the Beginning of the creation of God"

You may not be aware of this Roy but "the beginning of the creation of God"   is the foundation stone on which the new creation is built upon, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

So Jesus Christ is the beginning/foundation of the creation of God.

Rev.3 is not saying Jesus was created, its saying that in HIM are all things created.

God bless

Brother Pneuma

That is a scurrilous accusation, where have you seen any such thing said by me? I think you owe me an apology.

Indeed I'm saying that Jesus Christ is the CREATOR, the one who created all things and not a created being which would make Him part of the creation.

Please read my posts very carefully before coming out with such blasphemies or cease communicating with me. I only deal with people who use facts, produce the evidence with the accusation next time. Do you understand me brother?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy UK

[Molly]

I was in agreement with Craig....thats why he proposes what he did, along with Laren( myself inc if ya wish)..its a PERIOD of TIME,..but your saying Sadam and the Like are going to be there a LONG time, in so , for me,your inferring to greater sin.

In a Post earlier I did mention PAUL...was there any worse than HIM,?...if ya well read at Bts, im sure ya learnt that from there..and The power above converted HIM in moments...thats the basics of what some have been saying.

So are you saying that all sin is equal?  Premeditated murder of millions is the same as stealing a piece of candy from the 7/11 because you're hungry and have no money?

Paul was involved in murder, although he thought he was doing the right thing by God, so it wasn't for his own power or sadistic pleasure or money, but, even so--he never stopped calling himself the chief of  sinners.  Was he just being hard on himself?

[Nathan]

2 Thess 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It's not people falling away . . .it's the veil falling away.  When it falls away, the son of perdition is revealed . . .your ego.  It hides behind the veil

[Nathan]

When we perceive things with our natural minds, our first instinct to interpret something  is from a fallen nature which will only focus on death and destruction.  I believe that could also be what's happening even here.  What if this falling away isn't about believers falling away from truth, what if it's the reverse?

The whole emphasis when walking in the kingdom is not about men falling from God, but it's about men being transformed "by" God.  Why would this then be any different?  When Jesus died on the cross, there was a falling away of sin's power over us.  But Paul speaks to us about a veil that is over the hearts of men that's causing them to be blind to the truth of the kingdom.  And only when they turn to Christ will that veil be taken away.  Well, what if this falling away is not men falling away from God, but what if this falling away, is the veil falling away from the minds of men?  When reading it with that perspective, it puts the entire passage in a whole new light.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  (It's already begun)
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,f(the veil of carnal thinking)  and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Which is my mind)
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (my mind at enmity) so that he as God sitteth in the temple (Same word Paul used when referring to your body as the temple)  of God, shewing himself that he is God.  (You're carnal mind desires control over your nature or identity)
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth (Our mind creates the veil which "holds back" the freedom in truth)  that he might be revealed in his time. (The time is the Sabbath Day, The third day, the resurrection day, they're all one and the same and that time is Now)
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work  (My mind is the mystery of iniquity, my carnal logic)  only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  (It's not God letting, it's my mind letting, It's letting carnal thinking take priority over spiritual truth, but once my mind is taken out of the way, then truth is revealed)
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (the truth is, the wicked is your mind, what's being revealed is, your mind is the source of wickedness, if it wasn't, it wouldn't need to constantly be renewed) whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (The word of truth brings revelation to your spirit which takes captive your thoughts and then you can see his light in, through, and out of you)
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan (original word "adversary" which again is your carnal nature, same word used when Jesus called Peter satan, Peter, in acting on his own logic, became an adversary to the purpose of Christ)  with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (many have been saved by emotional manipulation, not by the love of truth and are deceived into thinking they're in truth.  But truth and love go hand in hand.  Religion stages love based on a performance, it can duplicate the appearance on the surface, but not in the heart.  Love is not an emotion you can cultivate, it's a person, it's "the" nature of God)
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (believing a lie, it's a picture of your mind again.  Because you "let" your mind deceive you, strong "delusion" that word simply means energy.  Strong energy, it's saying you'll become stubborn in your carnal thinking)
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (It's not about loving sin, it's about loving religion, there is no righteousness in living by the law.)
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

  I just think that this does fit better and can be seen clearer if we could see this as the veil falling away instead of people falling away.  The entire purpose for the birthing of the church is to remove the veil.  It's what the bride does at the wedding ceremony, she removes her veil and can see clearly the features of her new groom.  But our groom won't come to us clearly if our veil is still in place, so before the coming of the Lord "to me", there must first be a falling away of my veil of carnality

[Taffy]

I was in agreement with Craig....thats why he proposes what he did, along with Laren( myself inc if ya wish)..its a PERIOD of TIME,..but your saying Sadam and the Like are going to be there a LONG time, in so , for me,your inferring to greater sin.

In a Post earlier I did mention PAUL...was there any worse than HIM,?...if ya well read at Bts, im sure ya learnt that from there..and The power above converted HIM in moments...thats the basics of what some have been saying.

So are you saying that all sin is equal?  Premeditated murder of millions is the same as stealing a piece of candy from the 7/11 because you're hungry and have no money?

Paul was involved in murder, although he thought he was doing the right thing by God, so it wasn't for his own power or sadistic pleasure or money, but, even so--he never stopped calling himself the chief of  sinners.  Was he just being hard on himself?

ya miss  the Point...but God wiling In time your MIND will be enlightened .