Can you explain?

[Roy Monis]

Let us say Jesus was 100% human and possibly Joseph was the biological father.  Even at the time of conception and by virtue of where Jesus originated from was not where the folk were expecting a Prophet to originate from let alone a Messiah.  Can we assume that the Your   I would think so based on the Psalm where it states He knits us together in our mother's womb.

11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God,
       to receive glory and honor and power,
       for you created all things,
       and by your will they were created
       and have their being."

--Rev 4




10.He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1, KJV, 1611




005:002 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 

--Micah 5, KJV, 1611

Hi! Molly

Your quote from above: " Father still enveloped that which had been conceived naturally and blessed it?"  How would that be possible Molly, considering that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit BEFORE Mary and Joseph came together. She had already conceived the Word in the body/Jesus that had been prepared for Him. "But a body You have prepared for Me; (Heb.10:5).

Jesus was the Word the Son of God in the Mary's womb before Joseph had relations with her. That's what that Scripture is saying to me, can you not see it?

Peace! url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy   UK

[Molly]

Hi! Molly

Your quote from above: " Father still enveloped that which had been conceived naturally and blessed it?"  How would that be possible Molly, considering that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit BEFORE Mary and Joseph came together. She had already conceived the Word in the body/Jesus that had been prepared for Him. "But a body You have prepared for Me; (Heb.10:5).

Jesus was the Word the Son of God in the Mary's womb before Joseph had relations with her. That's what that Scripture is saying to me, can you not see it?

Peace! url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy   UK

Yes, it had nothing to do with Joseph--Mary was a virgin. (I'm not sure which quote you mean, but I don't think it's mine).

I know of Catholics who are shocked when you tell them that Jesus existed before he was born a baby in Bethlehem.

I studied with the JW's for a while--at least they were willing to study the Bible with me, and they came to my house--very nice people.   But around 6 months into it, they announced that Jesus was the archangel Michael, and not God.   So that was the end of that but, before we parted ways, I showed them scripture that rendered them speechless.

So there are groups of people that don't understand, besides the Jews that is, but it is because they do not read, or do not believe, the Bible.

[laren]

 


Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

[laren]

 
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me (insert: resurrection), though he were dead, yet shall he live: 

[laren]

 


2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[Molly]

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Yes, but what does this mean to you?

[laren]

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Yes, but what does this mean to you?

LIFE

[Molly]

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Yes, but what does this mean to you?

LIFE

well, in particular, what does it mean that Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh?

[Taffy]

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Yes, but what does this mean to you?

LIFE

yup..LIFE :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

I'm not sure what I did with that previous post I put out . . .I think it was intended for another thread . . not sure how I screwed that one up.

At any rate, I haven't said much on this thread mainly because I really don't see the big issue between whether Christ was created or begotten.  I don't see the relevance.  I think I kind of understand your feeling in that people create an image of who they think Christ is to them . .which is a far cry from who Christ is.  But your argument feels like it dips in and out of the literal "was Jesus created or was he born of God" . . .Adam was created by God, but he is also born of God.  Adam is the reflection of Christ.  If Adam is both . . then I see that Christ is also both.

But like I said, if it's man's carnal image of a created Jesus that you're concerned about . . . then I guess I could see your issue to a degree.  But it still sounds like you're bringing confusion into many who are trying to pursue Christ, but according to you, now the one they are pursuing may not be the right one.  So in that light . . . I can see why this is an unsettled thread.

[Molly]

I'm not sure what I did with that previous post I put out . . .I think it was intended for another thread . . not sure how I screwed that one up.

At any rate, I haven't said much on this thread mainly because I really don't see the big issue between whether Christ was created or begotten.  I don't see the relevance.  I think I kind of understand your feeling in that people create an image of who they think Christ is to them . .which is a far cry from who Christ is.  But your argument feels like it dips in and out of the literal "was Jesus created or was he born of God" . . .Adam was created by God, but he is also born of God.  Adam is the reflection of Christ.  If Adam is both . . then I see that Christ is also both.

But like I said, if it's man's carnal image of a created Jesus that you're concerned about . . . then I guess I could see your issue to a degree.  But it still sounds like you're bringing confusion into many who are trying to pursue Christ, but according to you, now the one they are pursuing may not be the right one.  So in that light . . . I can see why this is an unsettled thread.

It could make a huge difference as far as organized religion is concerned.

If organized religion is teaching a false Christ, then huge numbers of people are being led astray, which impacts the whole world.

Let's take Hagee's ministry as an example--Jesus is not the Messiah and we have to start armageddon to usher in the coming of the Messiah?  Where the Christians will be raptured and so miss all the bad stuff they started?

As Willie says--Please!

[Nathan]

Perhaps . .but to say it's a different Jesus . . .to me . .it's the same Jesus . . .it's his interpretation of Jesus that's incomplete.  Like what was stated with the JW . . .now "their" belief of Jesus is a different Jesus than what Paul preaches.  I don't know, maybe it's just in the phonetics.

[Molly]

Perhaps . .but to say it's a different Jesus . . .to me . .it's the same Jesus . . .it's his interpretation of Jesus that's incomplete.  Like what was stated with the JW . . .now "their" belief of Jesus is a different Jesus than what Paul preaches.  I don't know, maybe it's just in the phonetics.

Doesn't Jesus warn us of this very thing?

He warns us for a reason.


23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

--Mat 24


Besides, regarding Hagee, killing people is not 'phonetics.'

[Nathan]

Sigh . . .so . . .let's just killem' all then. 

Look, we have a different vision than Hagee, that's obvious and apparent, but I think it gets a little dangerous when we become judgmental about them and use literal interpretations to again, cut other people down.  There for the grace of God go I.  Who's to say that this time tomorrow, Hagee won't be found laying in his office, prostrate before God, blinded by an invisible light, deafened by an unheard sound.  If we are truly called in the spirit . .then why the stone throwing?

If I'm a spirit being, called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh . .then I think these verses are not to be read and applied to "people" but to "me" saying that "in me" there is an ego that aproaches my mind as a wolf in sheeps clothing.  "In me" there is this justification of my identity being connected with my position or my works.  The sword isn't meant to be used on others . . .it's meant to be used "in me". 

See the difference?  That's all I'm trying to say here.  Let Hagee do his dance . . . as a priest and king, let's release truth on the man . .call it out . . .speak light over him and let the Holy Spirit make the changes in his thinking . .just as he did in ours.

I'm referring to the earlier post of Matthew here . . .forgot to tack that on.

Oh, by the way . . .this passage quoted earlier . . .
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit."A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."  (Matt.7:15-23).

To me the emphasis here is these guys lost their identity.  It's become their ministries and works . . .rather than relationships.  The will of the Father is not that you idolize ministry.  Ministry works "within" relationships, but relationships should never be based on ministry.  These guys had it backwards.  It has nothing to do with whether Jesus was created or born, but I didn't bring it up. :happygrin:

[Molly]

Hagee doing his dance could result in millions of people being killed.

Other Christians are dancing as well, supporting fascism as they did throughout history.

We are to be witnesses to the truth.

We get our marching orders from the Creator of the universe--and he says, Love your enemies.--not kill them.

[Nathan]

Millions being killed?  How is he killing millions?

[Molly]

Millions being killed?  How is he killing millions?

Well, for example, he takes 5000 people to Washington every year to lobby Congress to bomb Iran and the middle east.

Not to mention the millions he preaches this to.

[Roy Monis]

Hello Roy,

Let me clarify. My view is fairly mainstream Christianity but with some explanations of why it is like this, versus just believing that is how it is. There is some dissension concerning the how and why even though most of us all agree on the end result.

God is not respecter of persons. Whether we believe or do not believe, does not change His plans of salvation for all mankind. His will will be done. Now, for the one who believes, they are acquainted with the foundation and therefore build in accordance to what they are acquainted and it will not come down. With those who are not acquainted with the foundation they build in accordance to what they do not know and it will shatter to pieces.


Each person is judged in accordance to what they built/planted, (1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 6:7-8) and in the Day of Judgment what they built/planted is either a) saved or b) destroyed but it is by the Grace of God, that regardless whatever a person gained or lost, that they are saved (1 Corinthians 3:15, Hebrews 6:9).

So in response to your Saddam analogy, everything Saddam built was destroyed and in this life did he receive his reward in full, in regards to the little old widow and orphan in Iraq who trusts in the Lord all things, because God is the husband to the widow, and father to the orphan may have lost everything in life, but receive blessings in Heaven. Each person must stand before God and receive repayment accordingly to their deeds and their words. (Job 34:11, Job 34:25; Psalm 62:12;  Proverbs 24:12; Psalm 28:4; Jeremiah 17:10; Jeremiah 32:19; Ezekiel 33:20; Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:6; Romans 14:12; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:25; ; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22)

The biggest concern is the duration (if any) of the punishment (which there is) for those who are sent into eternal punishment. There is no indication that it is perpetual in nature.
[/quote]

###################

Hi! Brother SOtW

Absolutely, brother, have I at anytime disagreed with your quote?: "Each person is judged in accordance to what they built/planted, (1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 6:7-8) and in the Day of Judgment what they built/planted is either a) saved or b) destroyed but it is by the Grace of God, that regardless whatever a person gained or lost, that they are saved (1 Corinthians 3:15, Hebrews 6:9).

What brought that up? I believe in salvation for all mankind. I also agree with every Scripture you have quoted, but they don't apply to the subject under discussion. As far as my use of the word duration, it's not in Scripture by the way in case someone should ask, would you disagree if I were to say that Saddam would need longer in the purification process than you or I, surely we don't need as much as him? I can't see what all the nitpicking over a simple word can achieve? Can you?

The subject in case we have forgotten is whether the Bible's definition of the Divinity of the true Jesus Christ is to be believed or the trumped up man concocted created Jesus Christ. Who is right, God or man? It's as simple as that. A simple choice so why are we trying to make square circles? I hope no one is going to ask if square circles are in Scripture?

Taffy goes on about grace. What does grace do?

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32)   "chasten," Greek: 'paideuo' #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12)   "teaching," Greek: 'paideuo' #3811

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo

Judgment and grace are virtually the same thing, chastisement, it certainly isn't a carefree walk in the park or free donkey ride for Hitler or Saddam.

So let us contemplate on who the real Jesus Christ is, the Provider of this grace. The other fellow can only get you into deeper trouble along side Hitler and Saddam very likely. No the green highlight is not in Scripture it is just MO, for crying out loud. 

But we are making a bit of progress brother. By the Grace of God they are saved all humanity, salvation for all by chastisement. that's what grace is all about. Grace isn't what we think it is, we need to get a better understanding of it.

Peace!url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)[/url

Roy   UK

[Taffy]

Roy I must inform you

Long before you came to BTs ...some at Tent were there Long before you....

I assure you I know the work of L.Ray.Smith and he too knows me, I also Know the Mods there very well too...,

Not the new ones ,but Guys like Craig, Hills ( Joe) Dennis...and me old Mate Chris Read..we go back a few yrs...

so if your going to use his work and words here, there nothing new my friend, well not to me....

Im well aware of what Grace means....its obvious from your previous post that you didnt know what falling away meant as one falling BACK TO LAW, that being the law of MOSES...BECAUSE, INDEED it does have something to do with it.

You have a beef about a carnal Jesus and a spiritual ONE...more than a few have adressed it,

Ill warn you this brother, if you expect those at TENT to agree with your EVERY WORD....then I suggest your at the wrong venue...if you wish to share your thoughts and veiws along side us, then indeed your welcome.

If you set yourself UP..there are those here who will quite happily MEET YOU AT THAT PLACE BRO..., for all other have their opinion also

Blessings
Taffy a fellow Brit :icon_flower:

[Molly]

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32)   "chasten," Greek: 'paideuo' #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12)   "teaching," Greek: 'paideuo' #3811

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo

Judgment and grace are virtually the same thing, chastisement,

This is interesting.  I didn't know this.  Thanks!

[Molly]

1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

2My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

3He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.

4Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

5The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.

6The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

7The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

8The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.


---Psalm 121




1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

--Jude 1

[laren]

So was the prodigal son and the son who stayed by the Fathers side saved the same way?  

Both were given the gift (gift of grace imo), one stayed faithful;

grace is only accessed by faith

the other squandered it (fell from grace) and was saved through fire.  

[laren]

 


Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous (via grace through faith): but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.


Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

[Molly]

So was the prodigal son and the son who stayed by the Fathers side saved the same way?  

Both were given the gift (gift of grace imo), one stayed faithful;

grace is only accessed by faith

the other squandered it (fell from grace) and was saved through fire.  

They were both sons.



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1

[Roy Monis]

In Jesus' own words

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

John 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be one with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou LOVEDST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Roy, I'm a no nonsense woman and really hesitate posting publicly so I decided to just share privately with you.

I think perhaps the problem is not so much the difference between begotten and created (although I have many scriptural verses to indicate the difference) as betweem whether one is worshipping the historic Jesus (rituals, social justice ) or worshipping the risen Jesus... one seeing Jesus after the flesh and one seeing Jesus in  spirit and truth.

Peace!
Anna

Hi! Anna

Glad you posted. "Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more. Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."(2 Cor.5:16-17). I think that's perfectly clear, Anna, and I agree with you. But now follow the centre reference for the meaning of creature and it will take you to Romans 8:16 and this gives the definition as the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God dwells in all of us, it is not a creature as something created.

But as far as knowing what we are worshiping it makes a mountain of a difference. It is not the same thing to be worshiping an idol created by man and to be worshiping the true Creator God. With all due respect, it has absolutely nothing to do with: your quote; "as betweem whether one is worshipping the historic Jesus (rituals, social justice ) or worshipping the risen Jesus... one seeing Jesus after the flesh and one seeing Jesus in  spirit and truth." All this carnal reasoning confuses the issue and provides food for the adversary. We have to decide whether we worship the True Jesus Christ Begotten Son of the Father, who purchased us with His blood  "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."  (1Jn.5:1), or the false imposter created Christ who is trying to unseat Him. Salvation is with the True God/Jesus Christ and not with an imposter, idol. "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." (1Jn.5:21).

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy   UK