Can you explain?

[WhiteWings]

to Larens questions....No you will not find a Duration  of time  specified.. other than age..so how longs an age...?

I think Martin wrote about a duration of 3 weeks to 5 months of :bdh:  and then :angelharp:

[Taffy]

to Larens questions....No you will not find a Duration  of time  specified.. other than age..so how longs an age...?

I think Martin wrote about a duration of 3 weeks to 5 months of :bdh:  and then :angelharp:

:laughing7:

[SeekerSA]

Possibly throwing a spanner in the works - here is how I view the whole Jesus begotten aspects.

Firstly - I am not one that believes in the Virgin Birth although I do not deny that it is possible with the Father.

Whatever happened - I will be honest and say - I don't know.  The reason I do not hold to this is because when God delegated procreation to us - that was finished and He said it was Good.

We have all the OT accounts and Prophets who mostly were done away with as they in essence opposed the system and the system had become the god instead of the Father.

I shared recently on another thread about these POV of mine.

I still hold to a personage of a deity in Jesus but I am not one that holds to the trinity doctrine.  Now we have Matthew and Luke's account and at best they are 2nd or 3rd hand accounts.  My John studies actually show that His brothers were not believers in Him and if the VB was true such a miracle would have been common knowledge to His siblings. (see my blog or or FLf it is there also.)

Now if we believe in the VB or not is still remains IMO a non sequitur as His ministry started at the Baptism of JTB.  If we accept that the Lord can use a mortal donkey to speak then why can we not accept that He (the Father) cannot mightily use a person irrespective of His genetical make up.  To digress here if He Jesus was VB born then Mary His mother was still of the Adamic seed and hence Jesus was still at least 50% "adam".  The RCC took this a step further and made Mary also "immaculate" but that would still make her 50% and Jesus 25% adam hence the only way to remove the adamic seed is to go all the way back to creation IOW pre-Adam.  Likely it is this that gave rise to the idea that Jesus was literally God in the Flesh.

Now I am sure 2000 odd years ago they likely did not know how genetics work and as the bloodline of Jesus is traced back via Joseph, the descendant Jesus was NOT via Mary's bloodline.  Of course folk have suggested they were distant cousins so the blood line remains valid either way.  That is purely conjecture as there is no standard biblical evidence for that.  2 gospels suggest the VB and and 2 completely make no mention.  Personally I think that John covers Jesus' important fact more comprehensively than Matt or Luke.

So was Jesus pre-existent?  The bible does not say and it is merely IMO and based on what I have gleaned off in my studies, mere conjecture.

Let us say Jesus was 100% human and possibly Joseph was the biological father.  Even at the time of conception and by virtue of where Jesus originated from was not where the folk were expecting a Prophet to originate from let alone a Messiah.  Can we assume that the Father still enveloped that which had been conceived naturally and blessed it?  I would think so based on the Psalm where it states He knits us together in our mother's womb.

Furthermore, if Jesus was only 50% human, He had an edge over us in that He had double the chance to resist sin as opposed to us.  I think this is where the Only Begotten Son goes pear shaped in that He then must have existed prior to His natural birth.  Is that not possible for us too?  Only difference is that we do not have any recall.  Did Jesus have this recall?  It seems very likely.  Let us assume He had full knowledge of everything - how would being born make that any more a requirement?  Well many folk say He had to have every possible human experience and .........  Well that IMO puts God in an small box.  He created us so in all likelihood He should have a pretty good idea what makes us tick - why would He God need a human experience literally to "understand" our situation, trials and temptations.  Surely these petty contrivances are no biggie for God, He is after all Omniscient - No?

So at the end of the day you need to ask yourself, If Jesus was not born of a Virgin, how does that detract from His teachings?

If you come to the conclusion of - NONE - then is the VB belief necessary?  You decide!

When we follow on through His ministry, we eventually come to the cross and His "alleged" sacrifice for all humanity.  Now if Jesus was/is God then He sacrificed Himself to Himself.  This is the logic that I cannot accept.  As a Divine Son - it makes more sense but only then with the paradigm that existed of a wrathful, cruel, intolerant God espoused by the Jewish religion.  So what did the modern writers do?  IMO they tried to unsuccessfully marry the old with the new and we know Jesus warned against that.  SO the folk with their likely good knowledge of the Torah and OT writings set out to match the life and times of Jesus with the "alleged" prophesies of the OT.

IMO this is where the early church went wrong.  The foundation should be Christ and NOT the Judaic system of yore.  Yes Jesus was still under the Old covenant and as a result of breaking their laws, He suffered the penalty for breaking those laws.  It was after the fact that the disciples and early believers tried to make sense of His death.  I do believe His death was foreordained as a Jesus that died of old age would certainly not even raised a blip on the religious radar screen.  Hence His death was very pivotal in bringing about the changes the Father wanted.  I do not have to even cite scripture but refer to recent history that great men actually became more famous after their deaths. So too was it with Jesus.

Now this is what I have come to believe and I do not expect anyone to agree with me.  Even the texts that suggest He was w/o sin can merely be interpreted to without sin (focus)  Jesus never let go of His prime focus and that was of the Father.  In this I see clearly the WAY He pointed to the Father in all His teachings.  Once the paradigm of trinity is dismissed and we see Jesus as a man Exstrodinaire, we the see how I believe the NT folk viewed Him (Acts to Revelation).  I am not well versed in the Gnostic texts but the bit I have seen tends to lean more in this personal POV.  Of course, even in their ranks were radicals and likely they were as many of us are today deemed heretical under one broad brush.  Too many ancient texts were lost to make a cognitive conclusion so even my POV is at best a supposition.

Yet I believe that which we have - even if it seems biased - The Lord can use to reveal both Jesus and the Father to us.

So what am I saying?  I pick and choose that which suits my belief, maybe but I tend to see that even we as fallible humans are today, back then they were no different and as Paul said, we see dimly etc.

Once you go down this path of "textual criticism" there are a myriad of possibilities.  IMO that makes God just soo much bigger than the "boxed" version many of us were taught.

I think we folk here at TM have all similar concepts but no one person can claim to have it all - maybe I am just one that dares to stretch the possibilities - be open to new things and trust the HS to reign me in when I also go too far.  I also believe that as a body we each have pieces of the puzzle and not the whole puzzle with a purpose - lest any one should boast.

Well that is my dump for the day - be blessed by it or dismiss it.  Not my choice either way.

Blessings

[Roy Monis]

Psa 30:5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Awesome Scripture Laren. :D

Hi! SOtW

So what you are saying is that Saddam with his massive crimes against humanity will be judged and receive the same punishment as all of us. Certainly joy cometh in the morning but that morning will not be the same for everyone, but it will eventually come to all. We do agree that salvation is for all humanity eventually but let us be right about it, the Lake of Fire is real and we will be refined in accord with our works, all hay, straw, wood etc will be burned out. The good works will be refined as gold or silver, the chaff will be destroyed but the person if he has no works of value will still be saved but as through fire. "Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1Cor.3:12-15).

So where is the "Awesome Scripture, Lauren."?  God isn't torturing for nothing. Were Saddam's, Hitler's and Stalin's crimes, NOTHING and will God punish you equally with them. Give us a break. Indeed it is Awesome but let's face it we are dealing with an Awesome, Just and Loving God who shows no partiality, the punishment will fit the crime. There is a difference between a just judgment and the totally ridiculous and unjust cruelty like the hell advocates believe.

Peace! (http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1298/1298544e42yk3c624.gif) 

Roy   UK

[Paul Hazelwood]

 I think this is where the Only Begotten Son goes pear shaped in that He then must have existed prior to His natural birth.  Is that not possible for us too?

I think it is entirely possible

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.



This may not be about all mankind, but if it is true for one human, there is no reason for it not to be true in the same manner unless the bible tells us it isn't.

[Taffy]

Hi! SOtW

So what you are saying is that Saddam with his massive crimes against humanity will be judged and receive the same punishment as all of us. Certainly joy cometh in the morning but that morning will not be the same for everyone, but it will eventually come to all. We do agree that salvation is for all humanity eventually but let us be right about it, the Lake of Fire is real and we will be refined in accord with our works, all hay, straw, wood etc will be burned out. The good works will be refined as gold or silver, the chaff will be destroyed but the person if he has no works of value will still be saved but as through fire. "Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1Cor.3:12-15).

So where is the "Awesome Scripture, Lauren."?  God isn't torturing for nothing. Were Saddam's, Hitler's and Stalin's crimes, NOTHING and will God punish you equally with them. Give us a break. Indeed it is Awesome but let's face it we are dealing with an Awesome, Just and Loving God who shows no partiality, the punishment will fit the crime. There is a difference between a just judgment and the totally ridiculous and unjust cruelty like the hell advocates believe.

agh..Grace ,now no longer becomes Grace, WHERE SIN ABOUNDS Grace abounds even MORE brother ROY.

seems brother you set up the flesh and are a respector of certain kinds of it....

PUNISHMENT IS "CORRECTION""""....for me a Correction of our minds...
whats burnt up in these scrips Brother hay, wood  straw, are again METAPHORS FOR OUR CARNALITY...that which is LEFT is SPIRIT, just as Pauls say..you are NOT FLESH, you are SPIRIT...All Flesh has to persih Bro

Gold = TRUTH= HIM, silver= His blood in which we are purified , you may find such precious stones on the Breastplate of the priests ,which signify the 12 Tribes,of israel, which are the symbolic ones mentioned in Revelation....that being US in HIM Him in US.

Exd 25:7  Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.

:icon_flower:

[laren]

Paul considered himself the worst sinner, and in one fast moment; his house came tumbling down. 

LOVE revealed CONSUMES. 

[Molly]

So was Jesus pre-existent?  The bible does not say and it is merely IMO and based on what I have gleaned off in my studies, mere conjecture.

What?  How did he create the kosmos, then--or are you throwing that out of your Bible, too?

[Roy Monis]

The punishment for disobedience is for the duration it takes to burn that, false Christ idol, out of ones character; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."  (2Pet.2:20-22). One thing is for sure we will all burn till the dross and evil is removed and we are pure/perfect for our God is PERFECT. "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " (Zech.9)

I hope this answers your question?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy     (fellow Britt)

I'm still hung up on your word "duration" a few posts earlier.  I still don't see any evidence of duration in your verses you quoted. 

again I ask, to anyone, is there verses out there that describe the lake of fire as certain duration's??  longer for worshiping the creation rather than the creator, or longer for "worse sins" than "less worse sins"?? 

it does sound like different intensities (worse off)however. 

Hi! Laren

What are you talking about, brother, I can't make sense of it? There are no Scriptures out there regarding duration and I never said there were any, now did I? I am not perfect and neither are you, but it would be safe to say that neither of us can be compared with Saddam, Hitler or Stalin so would it not be safe to assume that they would be in there for a longer duration than you or I, at least I hope so for me, I can't say for you.

You're asking if there are any Scriptures out there regarding duration of time spent in the Lake of Fire, should I not also ask if there are any Scriptures that state longer for worse sins than for less worse sins. I'm just quoting what I believe not what you believe.

1)....I believe that the True Jesus is the Jesus Christ Begotten of God. If you don't believe that that's up to you.
2)....I believe that the true Jesus is the First Love mentioned in Rev.2:4. If you don't believe that that's up to you.
3)....I believe that the person worshiping the created Jesus Christ has left his first love and fallen from grace and as such will spend longer in the Lake of Fire. If you don't believe that then that is up to you.

What I write is what I believe, debate it by all means but don't nitpick whether certain words are in the Scriptures as all words aren't; hell is just one example. But some things are blatantly obvious as to length of time one spends in the Lake of Fire, it is God's refining process and each will be judged in accord with the measure of his works/crimes/sins whatever. The Lake of Fire is no walk in the park, it is a place of correction, to make the imperfect, perfect in order to enter the kingdom.  And NO this is not in the Scriptures or in the Bible just in case you happen to ask anyone out there.

I hope this clears that issue.

Peace!

Roy   UK(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1298/1298544e42yk3c624.gif)
 

[Molly]

Let us say Jesus was 100% human and possibly Joseph was the biological father.  Even at the time of conception and by virtue of where Jesus originated from was not where the folk were expecting a Prophet to originate from let alone a Messiah.  Can we assume that the Father still enveloped that which had been conceived naturally and blessed it?  I would think so based on the Psalm where it states He knits us together in our mother's womb.

11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God,
       to receive glory and honor and power,
       for you created all things,
       and by your will they were created
       and have their being."

--Rev 4




10.He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

--John 1, KJV, 1611




005:002 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 

--Micah 5, KJV, 1611

[laren]

The punishment for disobedience is for the duration it takes to burn that, false Christ idol, out of ones character; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."  (2Pet.2:20-22). One thing is for sure we will all burn till the dross and evil is removed and we are pure/perfect for our God is PERFECT. "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " (Zech.9)

I hope this answers your question?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy     (fellow Britt)

I'm still hung up on your word "duration" a few posts earlier.  I still don't see any evidence of duration in your verses you quoted. 

again I ask, to anyone, is there verses out there that describe the lake of fire as certain duration's??  longer for worshiping the creation rather than the creator, or longer for "worse sins" than "less worse sins"?? 

it does sound like different intensities (worse off)however. 

Hi! Laren

What are you talking about, brother, I can't make sense of it? There are no Scriptures out there regarding duration and I never said there were any, now did I? I am not perfect and neither are you, but it would be safe to say that neither of us can be compared with Saddam, Hitler or Stalin so would it not be safe to assume that they would be in there for a longer duration than you or I, at least I hope so for me, I can't say for you.

You're asking if there are any Scriptures out there regarding duration of time spent in the Lake of Fire, should I not also ask if there are any Scriptures that state longer for worse sins than for less worse sins. I'm just quoting what I believe not what you believe.

1)....I believe that the True Jesus is the Jesus Christ Begotten of God. If you don't believe that that's up to you.
2)....I believe that the true Jesus is the First Love mentioned in Rev.2:4. If you don't believe that that's up to you.
3)....I believe that the person worshiping the created Jesus Christ has left his first love and fallen from grace and as such will spend longer in the Lake of Fire. If you don't believe that then that is up to you.

What I write is what I believe, debate it by all means but don't nitpick whether certain words are in the Scriptures as all words aren't; hell is just one example. But some things are blatantly obvious as to length of time one spends in the Lake of Fire, it is God's refining process and each will be judged in accord with the measure of his works/crimes/sins whatever. The Lake of Fire is no walk in the park, it is a place of correction, to make the imperfect, perfect in order to enter the kingdom.  And NO this is not in the Scriptures or in the Bible just in case you happen to ask anyone out there.

I hope this clears that issue.

Peace!

Roy   UK(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1298/1298544e42yk3c624.gif)
 

I'm not nitpicking, I truly was wondering.  this was your quote: "That's precisely it, I believe in the salvation of all mankind, but if we do not believe in the True Jesus Of that salvation then we are all going to burn in God's Consuming Fire for one heck of a long time.

You spoke this as a truth, and I wondered where you were getting that from?  that's all.  nothing else implied.  i showed scripture where "a short work was God's judgement/wrath", so wondered how you came up with that statement. 

i'll drop out now,

peace

laren

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy
Been a little slow in responding..its not been one of my better days.

Firstly I would agree we do NOT worship Christ after the FLESH, we WORSHIP him in SPIRIT and TRUTH, being new a NEW MAN CREATED in HIM.

So, WHAT is SPIRIT and TRUTH?

Christ\ is SPIRIT and HE IS TRUTH ,meaning ,we WORSHIP Him by HIM   being in US and US IN HIM , ..now, this goes around as well, as The Father and Christ are ONE ,we now live in HIM being After the Cross,HIS LIFE..no longer knowing HIM AFTER THE FLESH.

I believe Most churches preach HIM in US AND US IN HIM, even if for now ,they may not fully grasp the finer details.

Now the other Jesus is they say is Created. This Jesus isn't mentioned in the Bible it is only the way man takes it upon himself to interpret the words in the Bible. This created Jesus Christ is a fake, a creation, an idol of man's imagination and to worship an idol is sin as you well know. Now we are told in; "But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." (Rev.1:4-5) that God is our First love and we have fallen away from Him by worshiping the wrong Christ the created one, in this case, and to repent or face the consequences

For mine Dear friend, you take this out of the context to whom it was written ...this speaks of those primarilly who slipped away from GRACE back to LAW, .....which is very much the theme throughout more than a few epistles.

Now using simple logic, if you tell a lie you'll get your wrist slapped but if you murder someone then you're in for the high jump and get stuck in prison for a long period but you'll eventually come out, hopefully a good boy.

Now spiritually it's very similar, if you tell a lie and then repent the Lord will forgive you, unlike on earth where you get your wrist slapped. If you leave your First love and then repent and return to Him, He will not stick you in jail, but forgive you. But if you do not repent and return to Him then He is not going to forgive you and you'll have to go to the heavenly jail which is God's Consuming Fire to be purified and have the sin removed, because you cannot enter heaven with that sin. God is Perfect and you have to be perfect like Him before you can get anywhere near His kingdom. Peter tells us this; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." (2Pet.2:20-22) That means burning in jail for a long time till you learn to be a good boy and then you'll be let out. Salvation for all good and bad.

again Roy, this too speaks of those who fall away to false teaching, those Clouds without water etc,,,again for mine our friends the pharisses.

to Larens questions....No you will not find a Duration  of time  specified.. other than age..so how longs an age...?

whats purified  Roy is our minds brother ,the flesh , that which is enmity towards HIM...That Tongue which preaches death ( M OF D)

The liars ,murders etc bro..are all those who TEACH LAW as a way to life, they are liars, murderers..these are metaphors Bro for such kind...those still of the CARNAL MIND....

Blessings for now Roy
T

Hi! Taff

I'm not denying that brother, but what it truly boils down to is whether we are on the same wavelength. It all hinges on one fact of belief; 1)... Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the legitimate Son of God, Begotten, brought forth, given birth to; or, 2)....Do you believe in the Created Jesus Christ. It is only if we can establish one of these as fact for both of us that we can actually proceed or else we'll be working to cross purposes.

I am not unaware of the fact that falling from the First Love refers to those who slipped away  back to the law, but would you say that someone who held as their First Love a created being, an idol, was still under grace?     

Would you say that worshiping a false Christ is not following false teachings?

Did I mention purification of the flesh anywhere, no I didn't, the flesh has long since returned to the earth from which was taken. It is the soul that will be purified and the soul is spirit. Flesh cannot be purified in spiritual fire.

Forgive me, brother, I do know my Scriptures and the context in which they are used, but Context...Context....Context is very familiar to Babylon and at times it doesn't always apply as I have shown above where falling out of grace has absolutely nothing to do with the Law of Moses but has everything to do with the Law of Christ which is the Law we are under now.

Have I made myself clear now? All that remains is for us to verify that we are on the same wavelength.

Peace!

Roy(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1298/1298544e42yk3c624.gif)
 

[Molly]

Would you say that worshiping a false Christ is not following false teachings?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

--Mat 24



What is the pope called? The vicar of Christ--vicarious Christ--in place of Christ--I am Christ

Let no man deceive you--

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[Roy Monis]

Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day

These are the passages dealing with what I presume to be the platform supporting the everlasting judgment concept.

There are about 3 times as many that speak of everlasting life also.  In this light, it does give the appearance that a case of eternal hell could be supported by these passages.

I am new to the idea of UR . . . I'm in a place where explaining it isn't as easy as accepting it.  The reason for this is because I don't rely on my own personal interpretations of Scripture as much as I do to the sound of the voice of the Lord within me.  Usually, once I give way to the new direction, understanding eventually comes to explain "why" my direction changed.  This is one of those times.  I didn't even know there was a name for "all being saved" until I began reading the forums.   I didn't come to realize I believed in it until about 3 months ago . . .and just learned what it was called about 6 weeks ago, but I have believed the lake of fire to be a process of purification rather than destruction for years . . somehow, I never made the connection between that and UR. 

From what little conversations I've been a part of . . .the word "everlasting" has a different meaning than what we perceive it to mean . .but if that is the cast, then does it also apply to the verses speaking about everlasting life?

Hi! Brother Nathan

Are we on the same wavelength? Have you read what "Can You Explain" is about? Let me refresh your memory.

It's about whether Jesus Christ is the legitimate Begotten/Born Son of God, who was in His Father's boson from all eternity? As stated in "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3).   
or
Is He some Created Christ not specifically quoted as such in the Scriptures?

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[Taffy]

Hi! Taff

I'm not denying that brother, but what it truly boils down to is whether we are on the same wavelength. It all hinges on one fact of belief; 1)... Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the legitimate Son of God, Begotten, brought forth, given birth to; or, 2)....Do you believe in the Created Jesus Christ. It is only if we can establish one of these as fact for both of us that we can actually proceed or else we'll be working to cross purposes.

well Roy I thought i explained that in my post...theres Christ after the flesh, and after the spirit...im just interted in the one we worhip...so i would say we agree. :icon_flower:

I am not unaware of the fact that falling from the First Love refers to those who slipped away  back to the law, but would you say that someone who held as their First Love a created being, an idol, was still under grace? 

Personally Roy im only interested in what the Scriptures mean ,There are a few threads on tent which talks about Revelation and who it was for,...Law V Grace and Truth.

Id say an idol is one who serves the creature, that would be OUR FLESH brother , theres No bigger IDOL than US., I have tendancy to look inward to what scripture applies ...

Would you say that worshiping a false Christ is not following false teachings?

do you Know, Ive heard of SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many Christs, But I only Know one we are saved BY, for me its the Indivdual who sees different Christs from where they maybe at in their walk....

False Teachings , false Christs , False Prophet, satan, levia-thon, the serpent, the Dragon ,the ANTI- Christ- The Beast, THE flesh ARE ALL THE SAME THING BRO...its all relates to worshiping the creature( us) rather than The SPIRIT of TRUTH.

Did I mention purification of the flesh anywhere, no I didn't, the flesh has long since returned to the earth from which was taken. It is the soul that will be purified and the soul is spirit. Flesh cannot be purified in spiritual fire.

No you didnt Bro, I did..when I say flesh, its the Mind OR MIND SET , its that which is Purified brother, we are to HAVE ONLY ONE MIND, ALL THINGS RENEWED

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ


1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Forgive me, brother, I do know my Scriptures and the context in which they are used, but Context...Context....Context is very familiar to Babylon and at times it doesn't always apply as I have shown above where falling out of grace has absolutely nothing to do with the Law of Moses but has everything to do with the Law of Christ which is the Law we are under now.

[/b]
Youve not known me long enough Brother..For those who often see me say"""""""""Christ is the Context of scripture"""...Christ also being the Context of what wa Mentioned in Rev..First LOVE,..Law also Bears witness to HIM..but theres no life to be found there brother.

Roy It was the LAW of MOSES certain Babes were falling back too, therefore Falling from Grace( the law of LIFE, SPIRIT, RIGHTEOUSNESS , GOD, FAITH ,CHRIST,LIBERTY.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 

Have I made myself clear now? All that remains is for us to verify that we are on the same wavelength.

yeah no probs brud..me hope i have too matey

Blessings
T

Peace!

[Craig]

Hello Roy,

Let me clarify. My view is fairly mainstream Christianity but with some explanations of why it is like this, versus just believing that is how it is. There is some dissension concerning the how and why even though most of us all agree on the end result.

God is not respecter of persons. Whether we believe or do not believe, does not change His plans of salvation for all mankind. His will will be done. Now, for the one who believes, they are acquainted with the foundation and therefore build in accordance to what they are acquainted and it will not come down. With those who are not acquainted with the foundation they build in accordance to what they do not know and it will shatter to pieces.

You can read more about this: http://www.studentoftheword.com/About.html

Each person is judged in accordance to what they built/planted, (1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 6:7-8) and in the Day of Judgment what they built/planted is either a) saved or b) destroyed but it is by the Grace of God, that regardless whatever a person gained or lost, that they are saved (1 Corinthians 3:15, Hebrews 6:9).

So in response to your Saddam analogy, everything Saddam built was destroyed and in this life did he receive his reward in full, in regards to the little old widow and orphan in Iraq who trusts in the Lord all things, because God is the husband to the widow, and father to the orphan may have lost everything in life, but receive blessings in Heaven. Each person must stand before God and receive repayment accordingly to their deeds and their words. (Job 34:11, Job 34:25; Psalm 62:12;  Proverbs 24:12; Psalm 28:4; Jeremiah 17:10; Jeremiah 32:19; Ezekiel 33:20; Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:6; Romans 14:12; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:25; ; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22)

The biggest concern is the duration (if any) of the punishment (which there is) for those who are sent into eternal punishment. There is no indication that it is perpetual in nature.

[Roy Monis]

The punishment for disobedience is for the duration it takes to burn that, false Christ idol, out of ones character; "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."  (2Pet.2:20-22). One thing is for sure we will all burn till the dross and evil is removed and we are pure/perfect for our God is PERFECT. "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " (Zech.9)

I hope this answers your question?

Peace!(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif)

Roy     (fellow Britt)

I'm still hung up on your word "duration" a few posts earlier.  I still don't see any evidence of duration in your verses you quoted. 

again I ask, to anyone, is there verses out there that describe the lake of fire as certain duration's??  longer for worshiping the creation rather than the creator, or longer for "worse sins" than "less worse sins"?? 

it does sound like different intensities (worse off)however. 

Hi! Laren

What are you talking about, brother, I can't make sense of it? There are no Scriptures out there regarding duration and I never said there were any, now did I? I am not perfect and neither are you, but it would be safe to say that neither of us can be compared with Saddam, Hitler or Stalin so would it not be safe to assume that they would be in there for a longer duration than you or I, at least I hope so for me, I can't say for you.

You're asking if there are any Scriptures out there regarding duration of time spent in the Lake of Fire, should I not also ask if there are any Scriptures that state longer for worse sins than for less worse sins. I'm just quoting what I believe not what you believe.

1)....I believe that the True Jesus is the Jesus Christ Begotten of God. If you don't believe that that's up to you.
2)....I believe that the true Jesus is the First Love mentioned in Rev.2:4. If you don't believe that that's up to you.
3)....I believe that the person worshiping the created Jesus Christ has left his first love and fallen from grace and as such will spend longer in the Lake of Fire. If you don't believe that then that is up to you.

What I write is what I believe, debate it by all means but don't nitpick whether certain words are in the Scriptures as all words aren't; hell is just one example. But some things are blatantly obvious as to length of time one spends in the Lake of Fire, it is God's refining process and each will be judged in accord with the measure of his works/crimes/sins whatever. The Lake of Fire is no walk in the park, it is a place of correction, to make the imperfect, perfect in order to enter the kingdom.  And NO this is not in the Scriptures or in the Bible just in case you happen to ask anyone out there.

I hope this clears that issue.

Peace!

Roy   UK(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1298/1298544e42yk3c624.gif)
 

I'm not nitpicking, I truly was wondering.  this was your quote: "That's precisely it, I believe in the salvation of all mankind, but if we do not believe in the True Jesus Of that salvation then we are all going to burn in God's Consuming Fire for one heck of a long time.

You spoke this as a truth, and I wondered where you were getting that from?  that's all.  nothing else implied.  i showed scripture where "a short work was God's judgement/wrath", so wondered how you came up with that statement. 

i'll drop out now,

peace

laren

Hi! Laren

You're absolutely right those are my words; "I'm not nitpicking, I truly was wondering.  this was your quote:" "That's precisely it, I believe in the salvation of all mankind, but if we do not believe in the True Jesus Of that salvation then we are all going to burn in God's Consuming Fire for one heck of a long time." What's wrong with it? I still stand by it. The true Jesus Christ legitimate Son of God, the Word; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-2) is our Saviour God who died for the sins of the whole world and not some created false Jesus Christ who is not supported by the Scriptures.

If we cast aside or tread under foot (yes there is a Scripture that says this) the true Jesus Christ and worship an idol do we not deserve a more severe chastisement for a longer period?
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."  (2Pet.2:20-22). This is the Word of God talking not I, any argument it's with God.

Let me put it this way. Which would you get the more severe punishment for punching your friend or doing the same to your president? Don't tell me I know the answer.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)[/url   

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

So was Jesus pre-existent?  The bible does not say and it is merely IMO and based on what I have gleaned off in my studies, mere conjecture.

What?  How did he create the kosmos, then--or are you throwing that out of your Bible, too?

Hi! Molly

I just don't believe what I'm witnessing. He doesn't believe in the virgin birth, everything in the Bible appears to be conjecture to him, what's he discussing here? Does he know? Is this Scripture conjecture I wonder or does he believe it? "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1)

I give up, I'm beginning to think that I'm in the wrong place. I came to discuss whether Jesus Christ is the legitimate Son of God, born of the Father as quoted in the Holy Scriptures or whether He is some created being invented by man.

What I'm receiving in response is just unbelievable. No one is keeping to the issue in question, everyone seems to want to appear intellectual and nitpick on words. For their information the word nitpick is not in the Scriptures, just in case they are tempted to ask someone out there.   

From what I've read of what he believes and doesn't I'd say, YES, he has thrown the whole Bible out the window. Heaven help us.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy  uk

[Roy Monis]

Paul considered himself the worst sinner, and in one fast moment; his house came tumbling down. 

LOVE revealed CONSUMES. 

Hi! brother Laren

With all due respect, what on earth has all that you've said above got to do with whether Jesus Christ was Begotten or created? Do you understand the simple question? Please explain.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy  UK

[laren]

Paul considered himself the worst sinner, and in one fast moment; his house came tumbling down. 

LOVE revealed CONSUMES. 

Hi! brother Laren

With all due respect, what on earth has all that you've said above got to do with whether Jesus Christ was Begotten or created? Do you understand the simple question? Please explain.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy  UK

Your point imo, was that if one doesn't believe in Jesus Christ the begotten, then they would burn in LOF for one heck of a long time. 

I objected only to the second half of the statement, because you are stating "one heck of a long time" which is only your opinion.  I was never addressing the begotten or created part of your post. 

To me you should have stated, "in my opinion they will burn for one heck of a long time". 

I never was addressing your "begotten or created" point.  I apologize as I didn't "stick" to the your original "theme" of the post.  but it bothers me when someone speaks something as a truth, and has no scripture to back it up.  The concept of burning someone in LOF for "a long time" is not backed up by scripture, or at least I don't know of it. 

my point with Paul, is he was stated as the "worst sinner" which would appear to me to be as bad as "not believing in Jesus the begotten" and his conversion was in an instant, not a "heck of a long time".  When God's grace and Love is revealed, repentance can be immediate.  It doesn't have to be for a very long time. 

peace

[Roy Monis]

Possibly throwing a spanner in the works - here is how I view the whole Jesus begotten aspects.

Firstly - I am not one that believes in the Virgin Birth although I do not deny that it is possible with the Father.

Whatever happened - I will be honest and say - I don't know.  The reason I do not hold to this is because when God delegated procreation to us - that was finished and He said it was Good.

We have all the OT accounts and Prophets who mostly were done away with as they in essence opposed the system and the system had become the god instead of the Father.

I shared recently on another thread about these POV of mine.

I still hold to a personage of a deity in Jesus but I am not one that holds to the trinity doctrine.  Now we have Matthew and Luke's account and at best they are 2nd or 3rd hand accounts.  My John studies actually show that His brothers were not believers in Him and if the VB was true such a miracle would have been common knowledge to His siblings. (see my blog or or FLf it is there also.)

Now if we believe in the VB or not is still remains IMO a non sequitur as His ministry started at the Baptism of JTB.  If we accept that the Lord can use a mortal donkey to speak then why can we not accept that He (the Father) cannot mightily use a person irrespective of His genetical make up.  To digress here if He Jesus was VB born then Mary His mother was still of the Adamic seed and hence Jesus was still at least 50% "adam".  The RCC took this a step further and made Mary also "immaculate" but that would still make her 50% and Jesus 25% adam hence the only way to remove the adamic seed is to go all the way back to creation IOW pre-Adam.  Likely it is this that gave rise to the idea that Jesus was literally God in the Flesh.

Now I am sure 2000 odd years ago they likely did not know how genetics work and as the bloodline of Jesus is traced back via Joseph, the descendant Jesus was NOT via Mary's bloodline.  Of course folk have suggested they were distant cousins so the blood line remains valid either way.  That is purely conjecture as there is no standard biblical evidence for that.  2 gospels suggest the VB and and 2 completely make no mention.  Personally I think that John covers Jesus' important fact more comprehensively than Matt or Luke.

So was Jesus pre-existent?  The bible does not say and it is merely IMO and based on what I have gleaned off in my studies, mere conjecture.

Let us say Jesus was 100% human and possibly Joseph was the biological father.  Even at the time of conception and by virtue of where Jesus originated from was not where the folk were expecting a Prophet to originate from let alone a Messiah.  Can we assume that the Father still enveloped that which had been conceived naturally and blessed it?  I would think so based on the Psalm where it states He knits us together in our mother's womb.

Furthermore, if Jesus was only 50% human, He had an edge over us in that He had double the chance to resist sin as opposed to us.  I think this is where the Only Begotten Son goes pear shaped in that He then must have existed prior to His natural birth.  Is that not possible for us too?  Only difference is that we do not have any recall.  Did Jesus have this recall?  It seems very likely.  Let us assume He had full knowledge of everything - how would being born make that any more a requirement?  Well many folk say He had to have every possible human experience and .........  Well that IMO puts God in an small box.  He created us so in all likelihood He should have a pretty good idea what makes us tick - why would He God need a human experience literally to "understand" our situation, trials and temptations.  Surely these petty contrivances are no biggie for God, He is after all Omniscient - No?

So at the end of the day you need to ask yourself, If Jesus was not born of a Virgin, how does that detract from His teachings?

If you come to the conclusion of - NONE - then is the VB belief necessary?  You decide!

When we follow on through His ministry, we eventually come to the cross and His "alleged" sacrifice for all humanity.  Now if Jesus was/is God then He sacrificed Himself to Himself.  This is the logic that I cannot accept.  As a Divine Son - it makes more sense but only then with the paradigm that existed of a wrathful, cruel, intolerant God espoused by the Jewish religion.  So what did the modern writers do?  IMO they tried to unsuccessfully marry the old with the new and we know Jesus warned against that.  SO the folk with their likely good knowledge of the Torah and OT writings set out to match the life and times of Jesus with the "alleged" prophesies of the OT.

IMO this is where the early church went wrong.  The foundation should be Christ and NOT the Judaic system of yore.  Yes Jesus was still under the Old covenant and as a result of breaking their laws, He suffered the penalty for breaking those laws.  It was after the fact that the disciples and early believers tried to make sense of His death.  I do believe His death was foreordained as a Jesus that died of old age would certainly not even raised a blip on the religious radar screen.  Hence His death was very pivotal in bringing about the changes the Father wanted.  I do not have to even cite scripture but refer to recent history that great men actually became more famous after their deaths. So too was it with Jesus.

Now this is what I have come to believe and I do not expect anyone to agree with me.  Even the texts that suggest He was w/o sin can merely be interpreted to without sin (focus)  Jesus never let go of His prime focus and that was of the Father.  In this I see clearly the WAY He pointed to the Father in all His teachings.  Once the paradigm of trinity is dismissed and we see Jesus as a man Exstrodinaire, we the see how I believe the NT folk viewed Him (Acts to Revelation).  I am not well versed in the Gnostic texts but the bit I have seen tends to lean more in this personal POV.  Of course, even in their ranks were radicals and likely they were as many of us are today deemed heretical under one broad brush.  Too many ancient texts were lost to make a cognitive conclusion so even my POV is at best a supposition.

Yet I believe that which we have - even if it seems biased - The Lord can use to reveal both Jesus and the Father to us.

So what am I saying?  I pick and choose that which suits my belief, maybe but I tend to see that even we as fallible humans are today, back then they were no different and as Paul said, we see dimly etc.

Once you go down this path of "textual criticism" there are a myriad of possibilities.  IMO that makes God just soo much bigger than the "boxed" version many of us were taught.

I think we folk here at TM have all similar concepts but no one person can claim to have it all - maybe I am just one that dares to stretch the possibilities - be open to new things and trust the HS to reign me in when I also go too far.  I also believe that as a body we each have pieces of the puzzle and not the whole puzzle with a purpose - lest any one should boast.

Well that is my dump for the day - be blessed by it or dismiss it.  Not my choice either way.

Blessings

Hi! SeekerSA

Your quote: "Firstly - I am not one that believes in the Virgin Birth although I do not deny that it is possible with the Father."

It did happen, the Scriptures say so, do you believe the Scriptures? "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit."  (Matt.1:18). Whether you believe it or not is immaterial, it's there.

Your quote; "I still hold to a personage of a deity in Jesus but I am not one that holds to the trinity doctrine."

I accept: "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."  (Matt.1:20). If the Holy Spirit is God then He would be Jesus' Father, but we know that that is not the case as Jesus calls the Father His Father. "I and the Father are One." (Jn.10:30), not the Holy Spirit.

Your quote; "Likely it is this that gave rise to the idea that Jesus was literally God in the Flesh."

Jesus was 100% God and 100% flesh, proof  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (Jn.1:1). Not 50% God but 100% God "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;" (Heb.10:5). Not 50% body of flesh but 100% of flesh.

Your quote; "bloodline of Jesus is traced back via Joseph, the descendant Jesus was NOT via Mary's bloodline."

Jesus' 100% carnal flesh had nothing to do with Adam or Eve. Read the Scriptures it plainly says before they came together the Holy Spirit implanted the flesh body/Jesus that was prepared and occupied by the Word, into Mary. Not Joseph's seed the Father's seed. Hence we have Jesus (flesh) with the Word (God) in His body making Him God. Jesus is 100% flesh and 100% God. Nothing to do with the carnal genetic process. Read Hebrews 10 fully for a full explanation, that's if Hebrews is not conjecture to you. The fact that He was given birth to by natural process requires that His bloodline be traced through His carnal parents to David, but in actual fact it can be traced right back to Adam and Eve. A pure bloodline. That's the carnal we're talking spiritual.

Carnal/physical eyes cannot see this truth it is enmity to God.

Your quote; "Now I am sure 2000 odd years ago they likely did not know how genetics work and as the bloodline of Jesus is traced back via Joseph."

We only discovered that the earth was round about the 15th, 16th century but this was well known to the ancients 3000 to 4000 years ago. "Have ye not known? have yet not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth above the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in;" (Isa.40:21-22).

Your quote; "So was Jesus pre-existent?  The bible does not say and it is merely IMO and based on what I have gleaned off in my studies, mere conjecture."

I beg to differ the Bible does say, if you read it properly with spiritual eyes: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (Jn.1:4).
And
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2).

Well that is what the Scriptures say to most of your questions, and I'm terribly sorry but I have better things to do than answer the rest of your ridiculous questions, for which you don't quote a single Scripture.

Peace! And Amen! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Would you say that worshiping a false Christ is not following false teachings?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

--Mat 24



What is the pope called? The vicar of Christ--vicarious Christ--in place of Christ--I am Christ

Let no man deceive you--

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hi! Molly

You're about the only one on the same wavelength as me. Those who proclaim a created Jesus Christ are false prophets that we have been warned against and I've left one such site just recently for that specific reason.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit."A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."  (Matt.7:15-23).

We need to be aware of such and avoid them but it is they the false christs and prophets that need to heed the advice more seeing that they too are only human like us.

Peace! (http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy   UK

[Taffy]

one seeing Jesus after the flesh and one seeing Jesus in  spirit and truth.

thats Good... no nonsence Anna :icon_flower:

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Taff

I'm not denying that brother, but what it truly boils down to is whether we are on the same wavelength. It all hinges on one fact of belief; 1)... Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the legitimate Son of God, Begotten, brought forth, given birth to; or, 2)....Do you believe in the Created Jesus Christ. It is only if we can establish one of these as fact for both of us that we can actually proceed or else we'll be working to cross purposes.

well Roy I thought i explained that in my post...theres Christ after the flesh, and after the spirit...im just interted in the one we worhip...so i would say we agree. :icon_flower:

I am not unaware of the fact that falling from the First Love refers to those who slipped away  back to the law, but would you say that someone who held as their First Love a created being, an idol, was still under grace? 

Personally Roy im only interested in what the Scriptures mean ,There are a few threads on tent which talks about Revelation and who it was for,...Law V Grace and Truth.

Id say an idol is one who serves the creature, that would be OUR FLESH brother , theres No bigger IDOL than US., I have tendancy to look inward to what scripture applies ...

Would you say that worshiping a false Christ is not following false teachings?

do you Know, Ive heard of SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many Christs, But I only Know one we are saved BY, for me its the Indivdual who sees different Christs from where they maybe at in their walk....

False Teachings , false Christs , False Prophet, satan, levia-thon, the serpent, the Dragon ,the ANTI- Christ- The Beast, THE flesh ARE ALL THE SAME THING BRO...its all relates to worshiping the creature( us) rather than The SPIRIT of TRUTH.

Did I mention purification of the flesh anywhere, no I didn't, the flesh has long since returned to the earth from which was taken. It is the soul that will be purified and the soul is spirit. Flesh cannot be purified in spiritual fire.

No you didnt Bro, I did..when I say flesh, its the Mind OR MIND SET , its that which is Purified brother, we are to HAVE ONLY ONE MIND, ALL THINGS RENEWED

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ


1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Forgive me, brother, I do know my Scriptures and the context in which they are used, but Context...Context....Context is very familiar to Babylon and at times it doesn't always apply as I have shown above where falling out of grace has absolutely nothing to do with the Law of Moses but has everything to do with the Law of Christ which is the Law we are under now.

[/b]
Youve not known me long enough Brother..For those who often see me say"""""""""Christ is the Context of scripture"""...Christ also being the Context of what wa Mentioned in Rev..First LOVE,..Law also Bears witness to HIM..but theres no life to be found there brother.

Roy It was the LAW of MOSES certain Babes were falling back too, therefore Falling from Grace( the law of LIFE, SPIRIT, RIGHTEOUSNESS , GOD, FAITH ,CHRIST,LIBERTY.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 

Have I made myself clear now? All that remains is for us to verify that we are on the same wavelength.

yeah no probs brud..me hope i have too matey

Blessings
T

Peace!

Hi! Taff

Who mentioned justification by the law, I didn't that's for sure matey? I agree that there are sooooooooo many christs, but which Christ is the right one that we believe in that's the question without going off the issue. There are two Jesus Christs that I am aware of that are being taught.
1).....   "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."   (1Jn.1:1-3). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."   (Jn.1:14).

This is the legitimately Born Jesus Christ Son of God; "Whoever believe that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." 1Jn.5:1).


The other Jesus Christ

2).......Is a Created Jesus Christ based on man's interpretation of the Scripture:" To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:.."   (Rev.3:14).

Now forgetting everything else so as to establish a common ground for discussion we must of necessity believe in just one of the two options.

I am declaring my total belief in the first number 1. The only Begotten Son of God. All I ask is which of the two is your choice? Only then can we continue or we'd be at cross purposes and it will just lead to confusion.

Peace!(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy 

[Taffy]

. There are two Jesus Christs that I am aware of that are being taught.
1).....   "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."   (1Jn.1:1-3). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."   (Jn.1:14).

This is the legitimately Born Jesus Christ Son of God; "Whoever believe that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." 1Jn.5:1).


The other Jesus Christ

2).......Is a Created Jesus Christ based on man's interpretation of the Scripture:" To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the """""""Beginning"""""" of the creation of God, says this:.."   (Rev.3:14).

Now forgetting everything else so as to establish a common ground for discussion we must of necessity believe in just one of the two options.

I am declaring my total belief in the first number 1. The only Begotten Son of God. All I ask is which of the two is your choice? Only then can we continue or we'd be at cross purposes and it will just lead to confusion.

Well bro, for mine they are Both the same....who do you think this Christ is In Revelation...? ChristS name comes In many Metaphors Bro...

HE IS  The Beginning and END..The ALPHA and OMEGA....what does this mean to you?

for me,  :icon_flower:  it coincides and bears witness to the one you call No 2?  :icon_flower: