Are you saying that Hitler is going to heaven?

[Molly]

Forgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Ps it looks like Hitler & co could be responsible for 60-100 million deaths, most of whom were civilians.

[sparrow]

Forgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Hitler's life will ultimately be a lesson for all...
That nothing can stop God's love for his children.
There is nothing that we can do, living on earth as human beings... that will make our Father stop loving us. There is nothing...
NOTHING more powerful than love.
What if, Molly... picture this in your mind.
Let your guard down for a moment and picture this scene in your mind:
Hitler dies. God appears before Hitler. God looks like a Jewish man to Hitler.
Hitler falls down at the feet of God, trembling..... a great crowd of people surround God...
These are men, women and children that were murdered under Hitler's regime.
Hitler sees them surrounding God... Hitler trembles.
The people reach out their hands and help Hitler up, showing him nothing but love and compassion.
Hitler is completely and utterly in shock at this unfathomable show of love towards him...
He asks "why?" They point to God and say "because of His love for US..."
There are NO "Hitlers" in heaven, Molly.
We are all in this TOGETHER.
There is NOTHING more powerful than LOVE.
For GOD is LOVE!
There are no murderers, liars, thieves in heaven.
On earth, yes.... but not in heaven.
People lie, steal and kill because of a lack of love. That is at the ROOT of everything that is wrong in this world. When we pass over... our Father will fill us with such love.... we will become new. He will wipe away every tear. This is a promise.

When you condemn a human being, you are condemning yourself.
We are all God's children. We are all in this together.
When you look down your nose at others, when you put their sins on display, when you puff yourself up by condemning another... you are worse than the person you are condemning.

We're all brothers and sisters.... and God will purge all that is wrong with our hearts. We will all love each other with pure agape love someday. This is the way it is supposed to be... It will be beyond our wildest dreams.

Be HAPPY that Hitler is finally rid of what made him the way he was... He is finally rid of it. He is filled with love. Imagine that...
So the next time someone says "hmmmmpph! I don't want to share a room in heaven with Hitler" I would say with a smile on my face "I'll trade with you, I'll share a room with Hitler" because Hitler will undoubtedly be so completely filled with love, appreciation, and awe for God... that I would WANT to be around him. I would WANT to see that transformation. That GLORIOUS HEAVENLY transformation... that only GOD can do. What a sight that must be. To see Hitler and the people he had murdered on earth, holding hands and praising God....

Only GOD can put an image like THAT in your mind.

peace.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Let your guard down for a moment and picture this scene in your mind:
Hitler dies. God appears before Hitler. God looks like a Jewish man to Hitler.
Hitler falls down at the feet of God, trembling..... a great crowd of people surround God...
These are men, women and children that were murdered under Hitler's regime.
Hitler sees them surrounding God... Hitler trembles.
The people reach out their hands and help Hitler up, showing him nothing but love and compassion.
Hitler is completely and utterly in shock at this unfathomable show of love towards him...
He asks "why?" They point to God and say "because of His love for US..."
There are NO "Hitlers" in heaven, Molly.
We are all in this TOGETHER.
There is NOTHING more powerful than LOVE.
For GOD is LOVE!

That is a great scenario and while my flesh still gets in the way of evil doers, I also know that I can't help but envision that myself as I read the scriptures of Gods rehabilitative chastisment and unconditional love.

[martincisneros]

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

:mrflo: Not sure if I can go there, Molly :dontknow:  Not sure who I'd [accidentally] be picking on if I said that all facial hair ['cept for eyebrows, of course] shall have it's part in the Lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death, and the smoke of it's torment shall ascend forever and ever :icon_jokercolor:

Jesus said on the Cross when they were crucifying Him, "Father, forgive them.  They don't know what they're doing!"  Did Jesus lie, or was He filtering even that sin against Him through His own Blood?  They knew they were executing someone.  They were enjoying it.  They knew that some were saying He was a prophet, while others were saying He was the God of the Jews, fulfilling hundreds of years of prophecy.  The first letter of each word in Hebrew above His head spelled out YHVH.  Yet Luke 23:34 says what it says.  Hundreds of hours of the Word of God [with accuracy and God's Anointing] was being preached/taught around them through Jesus' ministry.  Yet with greater light than Hitler ever had in early 20th century Germany, Jesus could say "Father, forgive them.  They don't know what they're doing!"

[Taffy]

Forgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Ps it looks like Hitler & co could be responsible for 60-100 million deaths, most of whom were civilians.

Good Morning Molly.

It was your post that was being addressed Molly...and for sure I dont convince anybody, just added to the pot , Gods unconditional Love for the Thief on the Cross and saul for comparison...Expounded  then by Willie and continued by others.

Guess you dont like Tashes either ,but that really is incidental. :laughing7:

Now if its bigotry  then thats a different matter.

Taffy

[sparrow]

heh.. by the way Molly.. My father and his mother's side of the family are Jewish.

:HeartThrob:

[Craig]

Guys, do you remember in the beginning of this thread, I said it is not worth addressing. Do you know why? Because it is called the Hitler Card, it is meant to degrade a discussion and not focus on what is important. The Hitler Card is a fallacy which gets people to begin to participate in ad hominem attacks against each other and inadvertently have people side with Hitler or indirectly defend his actions until there it breaks down into anarchy since it would then be justifiable not to agree with someone who sides or defends Hitler. It is a vicious cycle.  :msealed:

[WhiteWings]

Craig,
I can understand you that by using Hitler things can become very sensitive. Not only on this board I add
I can only speak for myself why I still pull the Hitler card.
When someone writes "Hitler" no long explanations are needed. It's clear we are talking about a major sinner not just a kid who stole a cookie.
I like to add that I don't look at those defending Hitler as nazi's but just people speaking how they very honestly read/understand the Bible.

To stay on topic a question.
There are some verses, please don't ask me where to find them, about workmen that get paid by the hour. At the very end of the day the last workman arrives. All get paid the same salary. Some where unhappy with it. But the reply they got was something like "you got the salary that was promised to you"
Does Hitler (sorry Craig) fit into this picture.
I'm sure Hitler did at least 1 good thing in his life. So God pays him the full salary. Being forgiving and admitting him into Heaven?
I sincerely hope I at least understood one parable  :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sparrow... :hithere:

Forgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Hitler's life will ultimately be a lesson for all...
That nothing can stop God's love for his children.
There is nothing that we can do, living on earth as human beings... that will make our Father stop loving us. There is nothing...
NOTHING more powerful than love.
What if, Molly... picture this in your mind.
Let your guard down for a moment and picture this scene in your mind:
Hitler dies. God appears before Hitler. God looks like a Jewish man to Hitler.
Hitler falls down at the feet of God, trembling..... a great crowd of people surround God...
These are men, women and children that were murdered under Hitler's regime.
Hitler sees them surrounding God... Hitler trembles.
The people reach out their hands and help Hitler up, showing him nothing but love and compassion.
Hitler is completely and utterly in shock at this unfathomable show of love towards him...
He asks "why?" They point to God and say "because of His love for US..."
There are NO "Hitlers" in heaven, Molly.
We are all in this TOGETHER.
There is NOTHING more powerful than LOVE.
For GOD is LOVE!
There are no murderers, liars, thieves in heaven.
On earth, yes.... but not in heaven.
People lie, steal and kill because of a lack of love. That is at the ROOT of everything that is wrong in this world. When we pass over... our Father will fill us with such love.... we will become new. He will wipe away every tear. This is a promise.

When you condemn a human being, you are condemning yourself.
We are all God's children. We are all in this together.
When you look down your nose at others, when you put their sins on display, when you puff yourself up by condemning another... you are worse than the person you are condemning.

We're all brothers and sisters.... and God will purge all that is wrong with our hearts. We will all love each other with pure agape love someday. This is the way it is supposed to be... It will be beyond our wildest dreams.

Be HAPPY that Hitler is finally rid of what made him the way he was... He is finally rid of it. He is filled with love. Imagine that...
So the next time someone says "hmmmmpph! I don't want to share a room in heaven with Hitler" I would say with a smile on my face "I'll trade with you, I'll share a room with Hitler" because Hitler will undoubtedly be so completely filled with love, appreciation, and awe for God... that I would WANT to be around him. I would WANT to see that transformation. That GLORIOUS HEAVENLY transformation... that only GOD can do. What a sight that must be. To see Hitler and the people he had murdered on earth, holding hands and praising God....

Only GOD can put an image like THAT in your mind.

peace.

:goodpost:

As well said as is possible sister Sparrow!  :high5:

Thanks for this vision of the ETERNAL LOVE of GOD!  :thumbsup:

How encouraging to think that the transformation of such as HITLER, will be of the wonders of ETERNITY that shouts of the power, majesty and LOVE of GOD!  :happyclap: :boogie:

PEACe...
...willieH  :king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I actually like the cookie jar thief analogy better.


God banished him to hell for WHAT!!!!!    Oh thats right,  Johnny sent himself there,  hope that was a damn good cookie.

[True Believer]

Molly talked about 60-100 million people being killed by Hitler, but the whole idea of Hitler burning in Hell for this presumes that there will only ever be one version of history.  But if prophecy is truly the conveyance of information from the future by the grace of a God transcendent to time, and if we truly have the option changing the outcome by heeding prophetic warnings as the Bible unquestionably affirms, then a multiplicity of timelines must be an integral part of reality or the entire structure of reality is logically inconsistent, something that would turn God into a liar.

The logic of time-symmetric caution is an unappreciated truth that is integral to the message of the Bible.  And given this, we can no more judge Hitler for the his actions on this version of history, for we ourselves may have been mass murders on some other version of history.  And likewise, there may be "future" versions of history in which Hitler was a successful artist and no war nor holocaust at all.

In addition, 60-100 million people where not personally killed by Hitler, but by an entire society misaligned to the Will of God.  And this number is notably smaller than the 300-500 million people that have been aborted in the US since 1973 when we take the hidden abortions inherent to many forms of contraception into account, and thus our own society is every bit as guilty as Nazi Germany for the sin of mass murder.

I've clarified my presentation of trans-temporal salvation in my most recent post.  It references the mystical insights of Philip K. Dick, uses the situation with Hitler as a prime example of the trans-temporal process, then addresses the abortion issue.  It can be found in the third post on this thread. It's a bit long but worth reading, for the evil of Hitler is finished, while the evil of abortion could drive this world to apocalyptic destruction.  I show the exact logic of why this could happen, please read it.

[Craig]

Molly talked about 60-100 million people being killed by Hitler, but the whole idea of Hitler burning in Hell for this presumes that there will only ever be one version of history.  But if prophecy is truly the conveyance of information from the future by the grace of a God transcendent to time, and if we truly have the option changing the outcome by heeding prophetic warnings as the Bible unquestionably affirms, then a multiplicity of timelines must be an integral part of reality or the entire structure of reality is logically inconsistent, something that would turn God into a liar.

The logic of time-symmetric caution is an unappreciated truth that is integral to the message of the Bible.  And given this, we can no more judge Hitler for the his actions on this version of history, for we ourselves may have been mass murders on some other version of history.  And likewise, there may be "future" versions of history in which Hitler was a successful artist and no war nor holocaust at all.

You know what, I am guessing I am the only one who understood what you just said. I touched on this in: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3109.msg31787#msg31787. Origen had speculated on this perspective of reality, and that the wicked progressively learn from their mistakes by re-living their current life after they die. That is why he was accused of re-incarnation, and other gnostic views which were not what he was talking about. He was talking about quantum reality, and not many people can understand this even now.

In addition, 60-100 million people where not personally killed by Hitler, but by an entire society misaligned to the Will of God.  And this number is notably smaller than the 300-500 million people that have been aborted in the US since 1973 when we take the hidden abortions inherent to many forms of contraception into account, and thus our own society is every bit as guilty as Nazi Germany for the sin of mass murder.

You got it!

[True Believer]

Thank you, you are true Steward of the Word. 

You know what, I am guessing I am the only one who understood what you just said. I touched on this in: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3109.msg31787#msg31787.

I was going to reference your message but was looking for it in this thread and couldn't find it.  The only thing I would add is that no choice is ever set in stone by our own actions, but only by the Power of God affirming that choice as a part of His plan.  It is a reality in which even the deepest of mistakes can be forgiven so thoroughly that they "never happened in the first place."

Origen had speculated on this perspective of reality, and that the wicked progressively learn from their mistakes by re-living their current life after they die. That is why he was accused of re-incarnation, and other gnostic views which were not what he was talking about. He was talking about quantum reality, and not many people can understand this even now.

I'm glad to hear that a Christian Saint of the early church talked about people re-living their lives.  It is a reality that very few modern people talk about.  I feel it is important to look much more deeply at the writings of Origen, for he was close enough to the Apostolic era to be much less corrupted by the traditions of man and machinations of politics.

I'm also glad to see your support for the abortion issue, for the reality of universal redemption has not been very well addressed for the millions of fetuses being aborted (or billions if you consider those happening worldwide).  It is a life or death issue that we must wake up to.

[Craig]

It is a reality in which even the deepest of mistakes can be forgiven so thoroughly that they "never happened in the first place.

Check this out:

This is a quote from a paper on Pre-Destination prior to my understanding of Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation. I wrote a few years ago based on what I experienced at age 13:

The three-dimensional being can easily change the circumstance and result without you actually even realizing it, so now instead of A -------------------------- C you have A ------ C. However, since you are a two dimensional being, you actually have not memory of A -------------------------- C nor of A -------------------------- B you have only the knowledge that the life you live is now A ------ C.

If you read the context, it is talking about repentance and forgiveness. It literally never did happen in the first place.

[Sarah]

This line of thought reminds me of the movie The Butterfly Effect, except instead of things getting worse, they get better.

[Molly]

20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

--Gen 18









4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

--Rev 18

[Craig]

Posting Scripture with no explanation or commentary, doesn't really help the conversation. It just looks like you are copy and pasting  Scripture without understanding what it is you are writing.

[CHB]

you obviously respect Flesh molly, in that some are worse than  others....you really miss the POINT

It would never in my wildest dreams occur to me to kill millions of people so that I can be rich and powerful.

Much less worship a deity who would help me achieve that goal.


Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Molly,

Therefore you can say "but by the grace of God go I".  You could just as well have been like Hitler but God chose you not to be.

Think about Judas, he was chosen to do what he did, so was Joseph's brothers, Pharaoh, Satan, those who had a hand in crucifying Christ, and Hitler. You was chosen to do as you are doing.

CHB

[True Believer]

Hi Molly,

You quote the Bible in reply #65 to remind us of the many passages that depict a wrathful God who smites wrongdoers.  In an earlier post, you commented that Hitler and his associates where Satanists, a bit of an overstatement, but related to the generally agreed fact that Hitler & Co were deeply involved in the occult.  Putting two and two together, Hitler and associates were wrongdoers worthy of being smitten.  I agree totally, but caution that we not draw our sights too narrow in seeing how this may occur.

Indeed, he lost a war that by any stretch of rational logic he should have won.  According to Philip K Dick, God went so far as to change the past to assure that Hitler lost the war.  I would say he was smitten in a pretty big way.   And given the reports of what people experience in NDE's, it is likely that if he is not in a hellish realm being tormented by demons because he fled the light of God, he will undoubtedly have had (or be having) a panoramic life review in which he personally feels every pain that he has inflicted on every single victim from that victim's point of view, something that could be almost as bad as being tormented by demons.

His current punishments, however, have no bearing whatsoever on the subject of universal redemption, for the simple fact that Jesus will eventually weave Hitler into an alternative timeline in which he makes an entirely different set of choices in which WWII and the holocaust never happen.  And via the ongoing progression of these timelines, he will receive both the fullness of life and total redemption along each and every other person who has ever been conceived.  This is the only logic that can truly reconcile the certainty of punishment and the promise of UR in any straightforward way.  This is God's logic, a logic that the Bible strongly affirms if we look deeply enough.

[Craig]

This line of thought reminds me of the movie The Butterfly Effect, except instead of things getting worse, they get better.

Yes, or another movie called Groundhog Day. I am not convinced fully on the trans-dimensional theory of redemption, but I am familiar with it and at one time believed that is how Pre-Destination worked. I still hold to the belief that this is one of the many options in which AIONIOS KOLASIS works.

[Molly]

Hi Molly,

You quote the Bible in reply #65 to remind us of the many passages that depict a wrathful God who smites wrongdoers.  In an earlier post, you commented that Hitler and his associates where Satanists, a bit of an overstatement, but related to the generally agreed fact that Hitler & Co were deeply involved in the occult.  Putting two and two together, Hitler and associates were wrongdoers worthy of being smitten.  I agree totally, but caution that we not draw our sights too narrow in seeing how this may occur.

Indeed, he lost a war that by any stretch of rational logic he should have won.  According to Philip K Dick, God went so far as to change the past to assure that Hitler lost the war.  I would say he was smitten in a pretty big way.   And given the reports of what people experience in NDE's, it is likely that if he is not in a hellish realm being tormented by demons because he fled the light of God, he will undoubtedly have had (or be having) a panoramic life review in which he personally feels every pain that he has inflicted on every single victim from that victim's point of view, something that could be almost as bad as being tormented by demons.

His current punishments, however, have no bearing whatsoever on the subject of universal redemption, for the simple fact that Jesus will eventually weave Hitler into an alternative timeline in which he makes an entirely different set of choices in which WWII and the holocaust never happen.  And via the ongoing progression of these timelines, he will receive both the fullness of life and total redemption along each and every other person who has ever been conceived.  This is the only logic that can truly reconcile the certainty of punishment and the promise of UR in any straightforward way.  This is God's logic, a logic that the Bible strongly affirms if we look deeply enough.

Hi truebeliever--

Is there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

Life and death is put before us every day of the week--we are admonished to choose life.

The only way any war can happen is if satan's minions agree amongst themselves to fund both sides, and nobody else opposes them.  They love death (someone else's) and they choose death (someone else's).  I watched recently the battle of D day--wow they even photograph death for their future viewing pleasure--and I had to ask myself, what kind of stupid evil men would order boys to storm a well defended beachhead, sending them to certain death?  well, that's the point of war, isn't it--to kill people? But your own side?  I didn't go to military school, but common sense dictates that is the last thing you would order your men to do--unless you want them dead.


30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and
cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may
live:

Deut 30, KJV, 1611

[Craig]

Molly,

Is there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

This is Irrelevant. If God is in control then this is not the issue and nor can it be used as an excuse of why it cannot be true. Use sound reasoning not subjective perception.

[Molly]

Molly,

Is there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

This is Irrelevant. If God is in control then this is not the issue and nor can it be used as an excuse of why it cannot be true. Use sound reasoning not subjective perception.

What? LOL

I have a good imagination, too.

[True Believer]

Hi Molly,

Is there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

My first post on the trans-temporal salvation thread begins to address the scriptural support for alternative timelines, with some clarifications in the third post.  My next post in that thread will address the scriptural challenge raised by willieH.  After that will be a very powerful indirect proof of time-symmetric causation via the Bible's systematic affirmation of a transcendent cosmic destiny.

Life and death is put before us every day of the week--we are admonished to choose life.

The only way any war can happen is if satan's minions agree amongst themselves to fund both sides, and nobody else opposes them.  They love death (someone else's) and they choose death (someone else's).  I watched recently the battle of D day--wow they even photograph death for their future viewing pleasure--and I had to ask myself, what kind of stupid evil men would order boys to storm a well defended beachhead, sending them to certain death?  well, that's the point of war, isn't it--to kill people? But your own side?  I didn't go to military school, but common sense dictates that is the last thing you would order your men to do--unless you want them dead.

30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore
choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deut 30, KJV, 1611

I'm not sure where you're going with this part.  For certain humanity has done many stupid things, and for certain evil exists to a degree.  But God is the only one who is truly transcendent which is why our failures to choose life will eventually be forgiven.  That doesn't mean we should choose death or evil because there are real consequences, but the beneovolence and power of God will prevail in the end.  In this regard, our challenge is to find the faith to choose life despite the evil and stupidity we see, and then deepen the faith so we can embrace UR, and by this means choose life at an even deeper level.

[Reverend G]

I actually like the cookie jar thief analogy better.


God banished him to hell for WHAT!!!!!    Oh thats right,  Johnny sent himself there,  hope that was a damn good cookie.

Do you get the same punishment if you break an idol and then tell your father that one of the other idol's did it?