Are you saying that Hitler is going to heaven?

[Gary Amirault]

One of the standard questions posed to those who embrace universal salvation is about Hitler. This email came today. I want those of you who are up to it to gather your resources, scan the internet and put together your own answer to this lady. Then post your answer here and email a copy to me, Gary Amirault. Take your time, make it a project and do a good job.
And above all enjoy doing it. :-) :
Let me get this straight:  You believe that witches, devil worshippers, those who deny the Holy Spirit, atheists, those who curse God, those who worship idols, Buddhists, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness (deny Deity of Chist), etc. all go to Heaven.  They curse God, deny Jesus, curse and deny everything about the Lord, love the devil, serve him in evil toward their fellow human beings, mass murderers who never repent, Hitler, etc, all go to Heaven and God "wouldn't possible punish them eternally even though they all deny him or his deity one way or another and curse him and kill, maim, mutilate, rape, molest and rape new babies and are proud of it never turn from it, repent, acknowledge Jesus--- and then die and go to heaven???????????

And that shows a loving God who just slaps their hand for a while after what they have done to his creations???

[Craig]

It is a fallacy not worth addressing. :)

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Gary... :hithere:

One of the standard questions posed to those who embrace universal salvation is about Hitler. This email came today. I want those of you who are up to it to gather your resources, scan the internet and put together your own answer to this lady. Then post your answer here and email a copy to me, Gary Amirault. Take your time, make it a project and do a good job.
And above all enjoy doing it. :-) :

:laughing7: <<<---- enjoyment! ---->>>>   :bgdance:

Let me get this straight:  You believe that witches, devil worshippers, those who deny the Holy Spirit, atheists, those who curse God, those who worship idols,

I can see these being questionable, but, before you "throw that stone", remember JESUS said:

"Let Him WITHOUT SIN, ...cast the FIRST stone..." So if you (whoever you are, ...fall into the category of being a SINNER, which is what all of the above that you name, in  fact ARE...) you best NOT... TOSS THAT PEBBLE!  :mshock:

Buddhists, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness (deny Deity of Chist), etc. all go to Heaven.

Buddhists are raised by Buddhists... just as Christians in many cases are raised by Christians... that is what they are taught... they were brought upon the earth BY GOD, and set into the family in which HE DECIDED to set them... 

What if GOD had decided to birth YOU into the Buddhist family, and the Buddhist into yours... then the tables would be reversed...

Would you as the (reversed) Buddhist wish the (reversed) "Christian" to judge YOU, as you have done here to him?  I think not...  drrrrrrrrrrop that stone!

Latter Day Saints and Jevovah's Witnesses STILL believe CHRIST is Savior and CONFESS Him to be Lord... according to Scripture, that is ALL that is necessary for them to be saved... Again, ...drrrrrrrrrop that stone!

As far as the "Diety" of CHRIST, even HE stated that there is ONE GOD, and deflected praise of Him as GOOD, to the ONE that IS...  which is YHVH... His Father... (Matt 19:17)

CHRIST is only GOD in the terms that YHVH permeated Him...  He was also the SON of MAN... and our BROTHER...

(1) GOD cannot be tempted (James 1:13), CHRIST was tempted (Luke 22:28 / Matt 4:1)...

(2) GOD cannot DIE (Rev 4:9), CHRIST died(Luke 23:46)...

(3) GOD is a SPIRIT which has no beginning (Hab 1:12), CHRIST was born a MAN (Matt 1:23 / 1 Tim 2:6)...

This is a potentially LONG discussion and I am sure you will object to this, but CHRIST's "Diety" was the FULLNESS of DIVINITY (the Father) IN HIM. (Col 2:9)

The word "Godhead" is not a plural notation, it just means DIVINITY - see Strong's #G2304 - Acts 17:29 / #G2305 - Rom 1:20 / #G2320 - Col 2:9

They curse God, deny Jesus, curse and deny everything about the Lord

I have spoken on MANY occasions with both "Mormons" and "Witnesses", and I have NEVER heard a Jehovah Witness, nor a Mormon, CURSE GOD, nor DENY JESUS!  ...drrrrrrrrrop that stone!

love the devil, serve him in evil toward their fellow human beings, mass murderers who never repent,

Let me ask you... How did YOU repent?  Was it something that YOU DID and GOD had nothing to do with it?  Was it something that, one day "out of the blue", YOU just decided to do?  :Chinscratch:

BEFORE you "repented", did you think those "Christians" were WORTHY to judge YOU, because YOU had not yet "repented"?  :dontknow:

And when you finally did REPENT... did your act of "repentence" make you more WORTHY than someone who has not done so?  :dontknow: 

Hitler, etc, all go to Heaven and God "wouldn't possible punish them eternally even though they all deny him or his deity one way or another and curse him and kill, maim, mutilate, rape, molest and rape new babies and are proud of it never turn from it, repent, acknowledge Jesus--- and then die and go to heaven???????????

Okay, enough "pussyfootin" around this... Let's go right to HITLER, since all others pale in comparison to his awful deeds...

It appears to me that you are of the mindset, that GOD had nothing to do with HITLER, and that his deeds were entirely of his doing, ...and that GOD should be ETERNALLY angry for his FINITE misbehaviors...

AND furthermore, that JESUS dying for HITLER's SINS was a work in VAIN...

For JESUS died for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD, which happens to INCLUDE Hitler (and all the rest of the undesireables you named above for that matter!) (1 John 2:2 / John 1:29)

Here are 7 reasons that hold GOD responsible for HITLER's deeds, and is WHY  JESUS CHRIST died for ALL SIN... (part of which within that sacrifice, was HITLER's SIN)... (Heb 2:9)

Whether you or I or ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN likes it or NOT, ALL these are TRUE and if they ARE (which they ARE), then GOD is RESPONSIBILE:

(1)  BEFORE Hitler ever took a breath... GOD KNEW all that he would do in his life... 
(2)  GOD brought forth Hitler, NEVERTHELESS...
(3)  GOD gave HITLER the POWER he had (because Scripture says ALL POWER is of GOD -  Rom 13:1  Let ever soul be subject unto the higher powers For there is NO POWER but OF GOD; the POWERS that BE, are ORDAINED of GOD.  See also Rom 9:17  where another "hitler type" - Pharaoh was RAISED by GOD to do what he did...
(4)  GOD created the means by which HITLER executed his victims (Fire is a creation of GOD) 
(5)  GOD also placed in proximity to HITLER, the victims that Hitler executed, by bringing them forth in the ERA of Hitler's life, and reign. 
(6)  GOD not only sustained HITLER's LIFE while He executed his victims, but also sustained the lives of the victims until the execution was complete...
(7)  GOD knew beforehand ALL HITLER's deeds would occur, but when they did, ...GOD did NOTHING to STOP Hitler,  nor INTERVENE on behalf of the victims...  :dontknow: 

WHY?  Why did GOD do all this ANYWAY?  If EVIL was suppressed by YHVH, then it would not be KNOWN to the degrees it must be KNOWN...  The MORE HORRIBLE that EVIL is shown to be, ...only GLORIFIES how GOOD God actually is by COMPARISON, does it not? 

That is, unless you or any other Christian, make GOD far worse than was HITLER, by proposing he BURN FOREVER in "HELL", ...beings which He created, knowing ALL that they would do beforehand...  :dontknow: 

GOD burning BILLIONS upon BILLIONS FOREVER, ...dwarfs the MERE MILLIONS that HITLER BURNED, for a very short TIME...  Which is worse?   :dontknow:

Truth is GOD shall not BURN anyone... His Sons mission was to SAVE that which was LOST (ALL are LOST) (Luke 19:10)  And SAVE them ALL, He will!

And that shows a loving God who just slaps their hand for a while after what they have done to his creations???

What makes you worthy enough to make this determination?  Because you have been forgiven of YOUR SIN, makes you now, better than one that is YET to be FORGIVEN, such as HITLER?

Don't get me wrong... HITLERS deeds were atrocious... and basically unmentionable... however... ALL JUDGMENT is committed to the SON (John 5:22)  Are you the SON?  If not, ...drrrrrrop that stone!  :sigh:

If you are a SINNER, then you stand in the JUDGMENT line with the rest of us... HITLER is a member of that line as well... GOD IS... HIS JUDGE, not you and not I...  :dontknow: 

In conclusion, ...let us DROP the STONES of Judgment, and pray for those who walk astray, not endeavor via JUDGMENT, to place ourselves above them, ...as if we, as sinners ourselves, are any better than they... for our SIN nailed CHRIST to the cross just as did the "HITLERS" of this world...

peaCe...
...willieH  :icon_king:

[Reverend G]

Simple answer.....Yes!!

Are you saying that you are without sin and worthy of Heaven?  Never even thought about lying, not even once?  Forgiven, aaah!  But how does one earn forgiveness?  If we are expected to be perfect, then the least transgression is less than perfection, and one cannot be "more than perfect" to make up for it!  Grace not works.

Just as gravity is the force in this universe that attracts matter to itself, and keeps us from floating off of this earth, God is the universal force of attraction for all mankind.  Even if you don't observe Him, even if you deny Him, just like gravity, He exists.  Try as you may all your life to resist Him, in the end we will all be drawn to Him irresistibly.  The biggest difference is that when you choose Him instead of resisting Him, you find the inner peace only you can understand.

[martincisneros]

It is a fallacy not worth addressing. :)

Yup! :laughing7:  I wrote something earlier, but not to meet the criterion of this request.  It's more preachin' to the choir where a Universalist audience would be concerned on this.  Not worth posting though.  Just a rant more than even inspirational.  Concerns about "not my best writing" haven't stopped me before, but after a while when it comes to some of these questions.... :thumbdown:

I'm more shocked that I'm going to heaven than that Hitler's going to heaven 'cause all I know about him is what others have told me about him, and I know how much "what others have said" has been worth in the past.  I'm not minimizing anyone's suffering, but all my info's second, third, fourth, and fifth hand info when it comes to Hitler.  But I live with me every single day knowing my own conscience, my own thoughts, my own intents, my own actions -- my own wickedness without Christ...

[Craig]

It is called the "Hitler" card fallacy. There is no reason to address it, because the person already doesn't want to accept it in the first place.

[Paul Hazelwood]

oops, double post

[Paul Hazelwood]

Let me get this straight:  You believe that witches, devil worshippers, those who deny the Holy Spirit, atheists, those who curse God, those who worship idols, Buddhists, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness (deny Deity of Chist), etc. all go to Heaven. 

No, actually you have been misinformed.  Lets talk about the truth of scripture and set a few things straight since it appears you wish to get it straight. It is good when someone wants to know the truth, that means they are wanting to read scripture rather than to just regurgitate what they hear from others.  BRAVO to you.

Witches will not go to heaven, but the person who is called a witch will at some point accept Jesus Christ as Savior and be transformed. There will be no devil worshippers in heaven, but the person who is called a devil worshipper will accept Jesus Christ as Savior and be transformed.

There will be no one that denies the Holy Spirit in heaven, but they will not be unforgiven forever and one day will be forgiven.  See it is in error to call blasphemy the unpardonable sin, since scripture does not say it is, it only tell us the time frame in which it is not forgiven.  After that time frame it is no longer unforgiven.

There will be no atheists in heaven because at some point the atheist will no longer be an atheist and will accept Christ as savior and be made new.  There will be no one cursing God in heaven because this person will one day accept Christ as Savior and be transformed.

I think you get the general idea here.  What you may disagree with is that you probably believe that all those people have until they die on earth to confess Jesus Christ as savior.  Well, you may have been taught that, but that contradicts scripture.

Philippians 2:11 And [that] every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If everyone is to do this, how then can life on earth be the place where everyone gets their only shot.  That contradicts what philippians says.  There is no way EVERY tongue confesses Jesus Christ as Lord while on earth.

They curse God, deny Jesus, curse and deny everything about the Lord, love the devil, serve him in evil toward their fellow human beings, mass murderers who never repent, Hitler, etc, all go to Heaven and God "wouldn't possible punish them eternally even though they all deny him or his deity one way or another and curse him and kill, maim, mutilate, rape, molest and rape new babies and are proud of it never turn from it, repent, acknowledge Jesus--- and then die and go to heaven???????????

They might never turn from it during the time frame you think it must happen,  but they turn from it in Gods time.  You do not decide Gods will, nor do you decide when God does anything.

God decides

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Do you believe it is Gods delight that every one confess Jesus Christ as Lord as in Philippians?  Do you believe scripture that he has the power to do so.  Lets take a look at one.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

If God is operating in people for the sake of his delight, then the conversion of all mankind is inevitable.

And that shows a loving God who just slaps their hand for a while after what they have done to his creations???

Lets be honest here. It is commonly claimed within christian circles that if Hitler in his last moments, confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, he is instantly forgiven and God forgets all he had done to millions just like that.  So, where is this retribution you seek in that scenario? You may not believe what is typically said along those lines.  Maybe you believe something different,  but the bible plainly states that Gods plan is to save all mankind.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
In case you have been taught that God just wishes for it to happen.  Just remember, it is GOD.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This really is great news,  I hope you are inspired to learn more about Gods True unconditional love.

[Paul Hazelwood]

One thing I will say is that I was once the Hitler card carrying Christian.

I find it interesting that I was inspired by things that were never intended directly for me.

[Average_Bear]

Paul H.

I had thoughts along the same lines:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

If you are 18 years old and try to enter a 21+ club, you will be told "You are not welcome here" Does that mean never or until you turn 21?
Will the idolaters be idolaters for eternity? Will homosexuals be homosexuals forever? Will tthieves steal for eternity? Look at the next verse:

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (v.11)

They were living in sin at one time, yet they will inherit the kingdom of God.

[fullarmor2]

Jesus said that everyone has to be reborn.  Paul called it becoming a "new creature in Christ".   Old things pass away and all things become new.     So all sinners will come to a knowledge of the lordship of Jesus Christ and to repentance, and will  then be transformed by the power of the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit into brand new people in Christ.   The people you refer to will not be the same people!   We ALL have to die the death of the cross.   And the good news is we all get to be resurrected with Christ also! To experience a brand new life! ALL the old evil junk gone forever! 

[Reverend G]

I dunno,

Sure seems to me you guys are giving Jesus and God way too much power!!  Oh, I forgot, they are all powerful.  Never mind.

[willieH]

I dunno,

Sure seems to me you guys are giving Jesus and God way too much power!!  Oh, I forgot, they are all powerful.  Never mind.

:mock: :laughing7: :laugh: :laughhand:   :LH:


peacE...
...willieH   :pointlaugh:

[Average_Bear]

I'd like to take another crack at the "Hitler objection"

- Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous.
- If the blood of Christ cannot save the most wicked, vile, sinner who ever lived (including Hitler, et al), it cannot save you either.
- Any one who does not want ALL to be saved does not have the heart of God.
- The objection misunderstands salvation. The mainstream view is that salvation means going to heaven (usually immediately) when you die. Jesus came to save us from sin (Matt. 1:21). Anyone who is fully saved from sin is no longer a sinner and is no longer a threat to turn heaven into a "bad neighborhood"
- The problem is not so much the teaching that the wicked, evil, and vile will go to hell forever. Most people, Christian or not casually believe that so and so will or should go to hell. But the mainstream believes that all unbelievers go to hell. Ordinally, every day sinners because they never accepted Christ - like your grandmother, your uncle, maybe even your children or you (especially if you misunderstood an important doctrine) will join Hitler and his minions in endless suffering. And don't forget the untold billions who never even heard the name of Jesus - and also many of Hitler's victims!
- The mainstream doctrine is in way, even more objectionable. At least with UR (depending on your particular brand of it) there is some process by which God destroys the sin while saving the sinner (perhaps in the Lake of Fire?). But the mainstream holds that if in those last moments in the bunker, Hitler finds and starts to read an old dusty Bible - maybe with a "Four Spiritual Laws" tract stuck inside, he realizes how evil he is and breaks down begging Jesus to forgive and save him. Unlikely as that scenario is, when the last bomb hits the bunker, he goes straight to heaven.
- If anyone is lost for eternity, it is as much the creator's as the creature's. If the lost sheep was not found, the owner of the sheep would be as much a loser as the sheep itself.

That's my :2c:

[LCDuplatt]

"The Kingdom of heaven is within you." - Gospel of Thomas
"The Kingdom of God is within you." - Gospel of John

Heaven is not a place, but represents "spirit" the higher place within you.

[Taffy]

"The Kingdom of heaven is within you." - Gospel of Thomas
"The Kingdom of God is within you." - Gospel of John

Heaven is not a place, but represents "spirit" the higher place within you.

:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Lets forget about UR for a moment.
What if Hitler repetent and gave his life to Jesus?
Wouldn't he be saved according to many other Christian views?
He would even move directly to Heaven according to some.
So there is not much difference with UR.
The real difference, as I see it as a UR newbie, is that UR teaches that Jesus extents the same offer after our death as he did our during life.
I even looks a bit similar to Roman Catholicisms purgatory.

[nightflight]

Why Hitler?  Why Stalin?  Why Mao?  We are supposed to hate what these men did in murdering millions, but we are supposed to love the God who keeps these victims alive through a miracle so they can be tormented forever.

Using awful people like Hitler or Stalin to justify hell ignores the fact that according to mainstream Christian teaching, their victims also burn. 

[Peacetroll]

 The Hitler card is a non issue.  They heart of a man is made evident by his life's doings.

When one says there is the same gift of eternal life for all,regardless of their faith and heart we are doing just as prophets of Israel did long ago, and God had this to say of it.

Ezekiel 22:26
Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Jesus said this of the matter of the wicked and their end.

Matthew 7: 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,

If a man has rejected truth, he is condemned already.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Then the question remains, what is he condemned to? A no brainer, the judgement, and the threat of the second death. Not so for those who believe IN Him.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The Hitler card is a non issue.  They heart of a man is made evident by his life's doings.

Partly true.  Hitler is brought up because we like the emotional emphasis of pointing at someone we believe is worse than the rest of us.  But I wonder,   how many Jews were killed by the direct hand of Hitler?   How many of us have murdered in our heart just from getting cut off in traffic?

However, the heart of man is not measured by works.  The heart of a man is measured by God.

When one says there is the same gift of eternal life for all,regardless of their faith and heart we are doing just as prophets of Israel did long ago, and God had this to say of it.

Peace Troll, I do not necessarily disagree here.  Sometimes as we write in forums I think it becomes mundane to try to qualify every detail about faith and grace concerning universalism everytime we make a post.  I think a careful study of universalism in general would avoid most misunderstandings.

A pastor friend,  likes to hold onto what he has read about universalism rather than dig into scripture to learn. Because of this there is always the thought that universalism throws Grace out the window.

In reality it does not.  Hitler has to repent and believe upon Jesus just like everyone else.  Disagreements within universalism aside,  the basic belief is that God brings about that through Grace and Faith and he will do this for everyone.

The disagreements are usually concering when,  and in what order.  Some may believe we are a bit more like puppets than others like to think, but in the end the agreement is that God has the power to bring all to repentance through the accepted means that all Christians believe.  Grace, faith, Jesus

[sparrow]

I just posted this on another board, but I think it applies here to... with regards to the Hitler question:

I imagine on the other side of this life... slaveowners dying and God appears as a black man to them. The slaveowner falls on the ground to his knees trembling, Then a bunch of former slaves surround God and help the man up. The power of love and forgiveness will snuff out and completely annihilate that "power" that man yielded while he was on earth. Love is more powerful than hate. Any power on earth esp. if it's born of hate... is absolutely nothing, ZERO, compared to the power of love. And I think we'll find that out. I pretty much think that's one of (if not THE) main reasons we're here going through the motions of this strange life on earth. To learn about God. To learn about love.

So that, some things happening, and we ask ourselves why.... but that's ok... you should ask WHY?! but I have full faith, that EVERYTHING happening, great and small will serve an ultimate purpose. I believe God is showing us there is NOTHING..absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G is MORE powerful than LOVE!! We are learning this, on a small scale, while we are HERE on earth, and on a grand, majestic, amazingly awesome, unbelievable scale when we pass over into the next life and can see the big picture. THAT is what will knock our socks off.... the knowledge of just HOW powerful LOVE is. It overcomes ALL. GOD IS LOVE. Aren't we lucky? Aren't we SO lucky.... that we have a God. And that God IS LOVE? Our minds can't comprehend. ha! Our minds can't comprehend the joy...
amazing.


If Hitler didn't go to heaven.... then NOTHING would make sense. This world, this LIFE would not make sense at all... to me.

That's just how I see it.

[james.goetz]

Nobody gets to heaven without repenting and accepting the Gospel. Thanks to God, Christ preaches the Gospel in hell (1 Peter).

[WhiteWings]

True.
But Jesus preached to them that never heard of Him because they lived before Jesus.
Does Jesus also preach for those that die now?
In other words does he preach daily in hell/hades for the people that often had a real chance picking up a Bible or otherwise got a chance of hearing the Gospel?

[james.goetz]

True.
But Jesus preached to them that never heard of Him because they lived before Jesus.
Does Jesus also preach for those that die now?
In other words does he preach daily in hell/hades for the people that often had a real chance picking up a Bible or otherwise got a chance of hearing the Gospel?

Jesus preached and gave additional opportunities to people who rejected the preaching of Noah. I see no reason why Jesus won't do the same to everybody.

[martincisneros]

I can tell you exactly where Hitler is, if you can tell me where the 50 million people that he killed are.  How about the 6 million Jews that died at Hitler's hands?  According to traditional, mainstream Christianity, every single one of those Jews that died without ever having embraced Jesus as Lord is right now in eternal separation from God or being burned alive forever and ever with their sentence having been passed from the very moment that their earthly tabernacle was removed from them. 

What about Ghandi??  What about Mother Teresa since she died a devout Catholic and most Protestants will say that Catholics aren't Christians??  Neither of them were Bible-thumping right-wing fundamentalists.  What about any one of a hundred different humanitarians during the last couple of centuries that could be brought up that gave everything that they had to alleviate some area of suffering, but who might not have prayed a "sinner's prayer," yet accomplished more than ten thousand missionary societies in taking care of the least of these, Jesus's brethren??  According to mainstream Christianity, if they didn't learn how to pronounce His Name correctly before it was forever too late, and if they didn't directly tell others of Him, they're in the torments of the damned right now -- never to escape or be shown any mercy, because they'd offended His Majesty by their sinful lives.  But after all, torment's more preferrable to them than life, right?  Sin's more preferrable to them than righteousness, right??  So says the Hitler-Juniors of mainstream evangelicalism...