Tentmaker Forum

One of the standard questions posed to those who embrace universal salvation is about Hitler. This email came today. I want those of you who are up to it to gather your resources, scan the internet and put together your own answer to this lady. Then post your answer here and email a copy to me, Gary Amirault. Take your time, make it a project and do a good job.
And above all enjoy doing it. :-) :
Let me get this straight:  You believe that witches, devil worshippers, those who deny the Holy Spirit, atheists, those who curse God, those who worship idols, Buddhists, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness (deny Deity of Chist), etc. all go to Heaven.  They curse God, deny Jesus, curse and deny everything about the Lord, love the devil, serve him in evil toward their fellow human beings, mass murderers who never repent, Hitler, etc, all go to Heaven and God "wouldn't possible punish them eternally even though they all deny him or his deity one way or another and curse him and kill, maim, mutilate, rape, molest and rape new babies and are proud of it never turn from it, repent, acknowledge Jesus--- and then die and go to heaven???????????

And that shows a loving God who just slaps their hand for a while after what they have done to his creations???

It is a fallacy not worth addressing. :)

willieH: Hi Gary... :hithere:

Quote from: Gary Amirault on July 08, 2008, 02:19:03 AM
One of the standard questions posed to those who embrace universal salvation is about Hitler. This email came today. I want those of you who are up to it to gather your resources, scan the internet and put together your own answer to this lady. Then post your answer here and email a copy to me, Gary Amirault. Take your time, make it a project and do a good job.
And above all enjoy doing it. :-) :

:laughing7: <<<---- enjoyment! ---->>>>   :bgdance:

QuoteLet me get this straight:  You believe that witches, devil worshippers, those who deny the Holy Spirit, atheists, those who curse God, those who worship idols,

I can see these being questionable, but, before you "throw that stone", remember JESUS said:

"Let Him WITHOUT SIN, ...cast the FIRST stone..." So if you (whoever you are, ...fall into the category of being a SINNER, which is what all of the above that you name, in  fact ARE...) you best NOT... TOSS THAT PEBBLE!  :mshock:

QuoteBuddhists, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness (deny Deity of Chist), etc. all go to Heaven.

Buddhists are raised by Buddhists... just as Christians in many cases are raised by Christians... that is what they are taught... they were brought upon the earth BY GOD, and set into the family in which HE DECIDED to set them... 

What if GOD had decided to birth YOU into the Buddhist family, and the Buddhist into yours... then the tables would be reversed...

Would you as the (reversed) Buddhist wish the (reversed) "Christian" to judge YOU, as you have done here to him?  I think not...  drrrrrrrrrrop that stone!

Latter Day Saints and Jevovah's Witnesses STILL believe CHRIST is Savior and CONFESS Him to be Lord... according to Scripture, that is ALL that is necessary for them to be saved... Again, ...drrrrrrrrrop that stone!

As far as the "Diety" of CHRIST, even HE stated that there is ONE GOD, and deflected praise of Him as GOOD, to the ONE that IS...  which is YHVH... His Father... (Matt 19:17)

CHRIST is only GOD in the terms that YHVH permeated Him...  He was also the SON of MAN... and our BROTHER...

(1) GOD cannot be tempted (James 1:13), CHRIST was tempted (Luke 22:28 / Matt 4:1)...

(2) GOD cannot DIE (Rev 4:9), CHRIST died(Luke 23:46)...

(3) GOD is a SPIRIT which has no beginning (Hab 1:12), CHRIST was born a MAN (Matt 1:23 / 1 Tim 2:6)...

This is a potentially LONG discussion and I am sure you will object to this, but CHRIST's "Diety" was the FULLNESS of DIVINITY (the Father) IN HIM. (Col 2:9)

The word "Godhead" is not a plural notation, it just means DIVINITY - see Strong's #G2304 - Acts 17:29 / #G2305 - Rom 1:20 / #G2320 - Col 2:9

QuoteThey curse God, deny Jesus, curse and deny everything about the Lord

I have spoken on MANY occasions with both "Mormons" and "Witnesses", and I have NEVER heard a Jehovah Witness, nor a Mormon, CURSE GOD, nor DENY JESUS!  ...drrrrrrrrrop that stone!

Quotelove the devil, serve him in evil toward their fellow human beings, mass murderers who never repent,

Let me ask you... How did YOU repent?  Was it something that YOU DID and GOD had nothing to do with it?  Was it something that, one day "out of the blue", YOU just decided to do?  :Chinscratch:

BEFORE you "repented", did you think those "Christians" were WORTHY to judge YOU, because YOU had not yet "repented"?  :dontknow:

And when you finally did REPENT... did your act of "repentence" make you more WORTHY than someone who has not done so?  :dontknow: 

QuoteHitler, etc, all go to Heaven and God "wouldn't possible punish them eternally even though they all deny him or his deity one way or another and curse him and kill, maim, mutilate, rape, molest and rape new babies and are proud of it never turn from it, repent, acknowledge Jesus--- and then die and go to heaven???????????

Okay, enough "pussyfootin" around this... Let's go right to HITLER, since all others pale in comparison to his awful deeds...

It appears to me that you are of the mindset, that GOD had nothing to do with HITLER, and that his deeds were entirely of his doing, ...and that GOD should be ETERNALLY angry for his FINITE misbehaviors...

AND furthermore, that JESUS dying for HITLER's SINS was a work in VAIN...

For JESUS died for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD, which happens to INCLUDE Hitler (and all the rest of the undesireables you named above for that matter!) (1 John 2:2 / John 1:29)

Here are 7 reasons that hold GOD responsible for HITLER's deeds, and is WHY  JESUS CHRIST died for ALL SIN... (part of which within that sacrifice, was HITLER's SIN)... (Heb 2:9)

Whether you or I or ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN likes it or NOT, ALL these are TRUE and if they ARE (which they ARE), then GOD is RESPONSIBILE:

(1)  BEFORE Hitler ever took a breath... GOD KNEW all that he would do in his life... 
(2)  GOD brought forth Hitler, NEVERTHELESS...
(3)  GOD gave HITLER the POWER he had (because Scripture says ALL POWER is of GOD -  Rom 13:1  Let ever soul be subject unto the higher powers For there is NO POWER but OF GOD; the POWERS that BE, are ORDAINED of GOD.  See also Rom 9:17  where another "hitler type" - Pharaoh was RAISED by GOD to do what he did...
(4)  GOD created the means by which HITLER executed his victims (Fire is a creation of GOD) 
(5)  GOD also placed in proximity to HITLER, the victims that Hitler executed, by bringing them forth in the ERA of Hitler's life, and reign. 
(6)  GOD not only sustained HITLER's LIFE while He executed his victims, but also sustained the lives of the victims until the execution was complete...
(7)  GOD knew beforehand ALL HITLER's deeds would occur, but when they did, ...GOD did NOTHING to STOP Hitler,  nor INTERVENE on behalf of the victims...  :dontknow: 

WHY?  Why did GOD do all this ANYWAY?  If EVIL was suppressed by YHVH, then it would not be KNOWN to the degrees it must be KNOWN...  The MORE HORRIBLE that EVIL is shown to be, ...only GLORIFIES how GOOD God actually is by COMPARISON, does it not? 

That is, unless you or any other Christian, make GOD far worse than was HITLER, by proposing he BURN FOREVER in "HELL", ...beings which He created, knowing ALL that they would do beforehand...  :dontknow: 

GOD burning BILLIONS upon BILLIONS FOREVER, ...dwarfs the MERE MILLIONS that HITLER BURNED, for a very short TIME...  Which is worse?   :dontknow:

Truth is GOD shall not BURN anyone... His Sons mission was to SAVE that which was LOST (ALL are LOST) (Luke 19:10)  And SAVE them ALL, He will!

QuoteAnd that shows a loving God who just slaps their hand for a while after what they have done to his creations???

What makes you worthy enough to make this determination?  Because you have been forgiven of YOUR SIN, makes you now, better than one that is YET to be FORGIVEN, such as HITLER?

Don't get me wrong... HITLERS deeds were atrocious... and basically unmentionable... however... ALL JUDGMENT is committed to the SON (John 5:22)  Are you the SON?  If not, ...drrrrrrop that stone!  :sigh:

If you are a SINNER, then you stand in the JUDGMENT line with the rest of us... HITLER is a member of that line as well... GOD IS... HIS JUDGE, not you and not I...  :dontknow: 

In conclusion, ...let us DROP the STONES of Judgment, and pray for those who walk astray, not endeavor via JUDGMENT, to place ourselves above them, ...as if we, as sinners ourselves, are any better than they... for our SIN nailed CHRIST to the cross just as did the "HITLERS" of this world...

Simple answer.....Yes!!

Are you saying that you are without sin and worthy of Heaven?  Never even thought about lying, not even once?  Forgiven, aaah!  But how does one earn forgiveness?  If we are expected to be perfect, then the least transgression is less than perfection, and one cannot be "more than perfect" to make up for it!  Grace not works.

Just as gravity is the force in this universe that attracts matter to itself, and keeps us from floating off of this earth, God is the universal force of attraction for all mankind.  Even if you don't observe Him, even if you deny Him, just like gravity, He exists.  Try as you may all your life to resist Him, in the end we will all be drawn to Him irresistibly.  The biggest difference is that when you choose Him instead of resisting Him, you find the inner peace only you can understand.

Quote from: SOtW on July 08, 2008, 09:18:52 AM
It is a fallacy not worth addressing. :)

Yup! :laughing7:  I wrote something earlier, but not to meet the criterion of this request.  It's more preachin' to the choir where a Universalist audience would be concerned on this.  Not worth posting though.  Just a rant more than even inspirational.  Concerns about "not my best writing" haven't stopped me before, but after a while when it comes to some of these questions.... :thumbdown:

I'm more shocked that I'm going to heaven than that Hitler's going to heaven 'cause all I know about him is what others have told me about him, and I know how much "what others have said" has been worth in the past.  I'm not minimizing anyone's suffering, but all my info's second, third, fourth, and fifth hand info when it comes to Hitler.  But I live with me every single day knowing my own conscience, my own thoughts, my own intents, my own actions -- my own wickedness without Christ...

It is called the "Hitler" card fallacy. There is no reason to address it, because the person already doesn't want to accept it in the first place.

oops, double post

Quote
Let me get this straight:  You believe that witches, devil worshippers, those who deny the Holy Spirit, atheists, those who curse God, those who worship idols, Buddhists, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness (deny Deity of Chist), etc. all go to Heaven. 

No, actually you have been misinformed.  Lets talk about the truth of scripture and set a few things straight since it appears you wish to get it straight. It is good when someone wants to know the truth, that means they are wanting to read scripture rather than to just regurgitate what they hear from others.  BRAVO to you.

Witches will not go to heaven, but the person who is called a witch will at some point accept Jesus Christ as Savior and be transformed. There will be no devil worshippers in heaven, but the person who is called a devil worshipper will accept Jesus Christ as Savior and be transformed.

There will be no one that denies the Holy Spirit in heaven, but they will not be unforgiven forever and one day will be forgiven.  See it is in error to call blasphemy the unpardonable sin, since scripture does not say it is, it only tell us the time frame in which it is not forgiven.  After that time frame it is no longer unforgiven.

There will be no atheists in heaven because at some point the atheist will no longer be an atheist and will accept Christ as savior and be made new.  There will be no one cursing God in heaven because this person will one day accept Christ as Savior and be transformed.

I think you get the general idea here.  What you may disagree with is that you probably believe that all those people have until they die on earth to confess Jesus Christ as savior.  Well, you may have been taught that, but that contradicts scripture.

Philippians 2:11 And [that] every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If everyone is to do this, how then can life on earth be the place where everyone gets their only shot.  That contradicts what philippians says.  There is no way EVERY tongue confesses Jesus Christ as Lord while on earth.

Quote
They curse God, deny Jesus, curse and deny everything about the Lord, love the devil, serve him in evil toward their fellow human beings, mass murderers who never repent, Hitler, etc, all go to Heaven and God "wouldn't possible punish them eternally even though they all deny him or his deity one way or another and curse him and kill, maim, mutilate, rape, molest and rape new babies and are proud of it never turn from it, repent, acknowledge Jesus--- and then die and go to heaven???????????

They might never turn from it during the time frame you think it must happen,  but they turn from it in Gods time.  You do not decide Gods will, nor do you decide when God does anything.

God decides

Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
Do you believe it is Gods delight that every one confess Jesus Christ as Lord as in Philippians?  Do you believe scripture that he has the power to do so.  Lets take a look at one.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

If God is operating in people for the sake of his delight, then the conversion of all mankind is inevitable.

Quote
And that shows a loving God who just slaps their hand for a while after what they have done to his creations???

Lets be honest here. It is commonly claimed within christian circles that if Hitler in his last moments, confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, he is instantly forgiven and God forgets all he had done to millions just like that.  So, where is this retribution you seek in that scenario? You may not believe what is typically said along those lines.  Maybe you believe something different,  but the bible plainly states that Gods plan is to save all mankind.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
In case you have been taught that God just wishes for it to happen.  Just remember, it is GOD.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This really is great news,  I hope you are inspired to learn more about Gods True unconditional love.

One thing I will say is that I was once the Hitler card carrying Christian.

I find it interesting that I was inspired by things that were never intended directly for me.

Paul H.

I had thoughts along the same lines:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

If you are 18 years old and try to enter a 21+ club, you will be told "You are not welcome here" Does that mean never or until you turn 21?
Will the idolaters be idolaters for eternity? Will homosexuals be homosexuals forever? Will tthieves steal for eternity? Look at the next verse:

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (v.11)

They were living in sin at one time, yet they will inherit the kingdom of God.

Jesus said that everyone has to be reborn.  Paul called it becoming a "new creature in Christ".   Old things pass away and all things become new.     So all sinners will come to a knowledge of the lordship of Jesus Christ and to repentance, and will  then be transformed by the power of the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit into brand new people in Christ.   The people you refer to will not be the same people!   We ALL have to die the death of the cross.   And the good news is we all get to be resurrected with Christ also! To experience a brand new life! ALL the old evil junk gone forever! 

I dunno,

Sure seems to me you guys are giving Jesus and God way too much power!!  Oh, I forgot, they are all powerful.  Never mind.

Quote from: Reverend G on July 09, 2008, 05:33:29 PM
I dunno,

Sure seems to me you guys are giving Jesus and God way too much power!!  Oh, I forgot, they are all powerful.  Never mind.

:mock: :laughing7: :laugh: :laughhand:   :LH:

I'd like to take another crack at the "Hitler objection"

- Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous.
- If the blood of Christ cannot save the most wicked, vile, sinner who ever lived (including Hitler, et al), it cannot save you either.
- Any one who does not want ALL to be saved does not have the heart of God.
- The objection misunderstands salvation. The mainstream view is that salvation means going to heaven (usually immediately) when you die. Jesus came to save us from sin (Matt. 1:21). Anyone who is fully saved from sin is no longer a sinner and is no longer a threat to turn heaven into a "bad neighborhood"
- The problem is not so much the teaching that the wicked, evil, and vile will go to hell forever. Most people, Christian or not casually believe that so and so will or should go to hell. But the mainstream believes that all unbelievers go to hell. Ordinally, every day sinners because they never accepted Christ - like your grandmother, your uncle, maybe even your children or you (especially if you misunderstood an important doctrine) will join Hitler and his minions in endless suffering. And don't forget the untold billions who never even heard the name of Jesus - and also many of Hitler's victims!
- The mainstream doctrine is in way, even more objectionable. At least with UR (depending on your particular brand of it) there is some process by which God destroys the sin while saving the sinner (perhaps in the Lake of Fire?). But the mainstream holds that if in those last moments in the bunker, Hitler finds and starts to read an old dusty Bible - maybe with a "Four Spiritual Laws" tract stuck inside, he realizes how evil he is and breaks down begging Jesus to forgive and save him. Unlikely as that scenario is, when the last bomb hits the bunker, he goes straight to heaven.
- If anyone is lost for eternity, it is as much the creator's as the creature's. If the lost sheep was not found, the owner of the sheep would be as much a loser as the sheep itself.

That's my :2c:

"The Kingdom of heaven is within you." - Gospel of Thomas
"The Kingdom of God is within you." - Gospel of John

Heaven is not a place, but represents "spirit" the higher place within you.

Quote from: LCDuplatt on July 22, 2008, 11:03:41 PM
"The Kingdom of heaven is within you." - Gospel of Thomas
"The Kingdom of God is within you." - Gospel of John

Heaven is not a place, but represents "spirit" the higher place within you.

:thumbsup:

Lets forget about UR for a moment.
What if Hitler repetent and gave his life to Jesus?
Wouldn't he be saved according to many other Christian views?
He would even move directly to Heaven according to some.
So there is not much difference with UR.
The real difference, as I see it as a UR newbie, is that UR teaches that Jesus extents the same offer after our death as he did our during life.
I even looks a bit similar to Roman Catholicisms purgatory.

Why Hitler?  Why Stalin?  Why Mao?  We are supposed to hate what these men did in murdering millions, but we are supposed to love the God who keeps these victims alive through a miracle so they can be tormented forever.

Using awful people like Hitler or Stalin to justify hell ignores the fact that according to mainstream Christian teaching, their victims also burn. 

 The Hitler card is a non issue.  They heart of a man is made evident by his life's doings.

When one says there is the same gift of eternal life for all,regardless of their faith and heart we are doing just as prophets of Israel did long ago, and God had this to say of it.

Ezekiel 22:26
Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Jesus said this of the matter of the wicked and their end.

Matthew 7: 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,

If a man has rejected truth, he is condemned already.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Then the question remains, what is he condemned to? A no brainer, the judgement, and the threat of the second death. Not so for those who believe IN Him.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Quote from: Peacetroll on July 28, 2008, 08:08:57 PM
The Hitler card is a non issue.  They heart of a man is made evident by his life's doings.

Partly true.  Hitler is brought up because we like the emotional emphasis of pointing at someone we believe is worse than the rest of us.  But I wonder,   how many Jews were killed by the direct hand of Hitler?   How many of us have murdered in our heart just from getting cut off in traffic?

However, the heart of man is not measured by works.  The heart of a man is measured by God.

Quote
When one says there is the same gift of eternal life for all,regardless of their faith and heart we are doing just as prophets of Israel did long ago, and God had this to say of it.

Peace Troll, I do not necessarily disagree here.  Sometimes as we write in forums I think it becomes mundane to try to qualify every detail about faith and grace concerning universalism everytime we make a post.  I think a careful study of universalism in general would avoid most misunderstandings.

A pastor friend,  likes to hold onto what he has read about universalism rather than dig into scripture to learn. Because of this there is always the thought that universalism throws Grace out the window.

In reality it does not.  Hitler has to repent and believe upon Jesus just like everyone else.  Disagreements within universalism aside,  the basic belief is that God brings about that through Grace and Faith and he will do this for everyone.

The disagreements are usually concering when,  and in what order.  Some may believe we are a bit more like puppets than others like to think, but in the end the agreement is that God has the power to bring all to repentance through the accepted means that all Christians believe.  Grace, faith, Jesus

I just posted this on another board, but I think it applies here to... with regards to the Hitler question:

I imagine on the other side of this life... slaveowners dying and God appears as a black man to them. The slaveowner falls on the ground to his knees trembling, Then a bunch of former slaves surround God and help the man up. The power of love and forgiveness will snuff out and completely annihilate that "power" that man yielded while he was on earth. Love is more powerful than hate. Any power on earth esp. if it's born of hate... is absolutely nothing, ZERO, compared to the power of love. And I think we'll find that out. I pretty much think that's one of (if not THE) main reasons we're here going through the motions of this strange life on earth. To learn about God. To learn about love.

So that, some things happening, and we ask ourselves why.... but that's ok... you should ask WHY?! but I have full faith, that EVERYTHING happening, great and small will serve an ultimate purpose. I believe God is showing us there is NOTHING..absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G is MORE powerful than LOVE!! We are learning this, on a small scale, while we are HERE on earth, and on a grand, majestic, amazingly awesome, unbelievable scale when we pass over into the next life and can see the big picture. THAT is what will knock our socks off.... the knowledge of just HOW powerful LOVE is. It overcomes ALL. GOD IS LOVE. Aren't we lucky? Aren't we SO lucky.... that we have a God. And that God IS LOVE? Our minds can't comprehend. ha! Our minds can't comprehend the joy...
amazing.


If Hitler didn't go to heaven.... then NOTHING would make sense. This world, this LIFE would not make sense at all... to me.

That's just how I see it.

Nobody gets to heaven without repenting and accepting the Gospel. Thanks to God, Christ preaches the Gospel in hell (1 Peter).

True.
But Jesus preached to them that never heard of Him because they lived before Jesus.
Does Jesus also preach for those that die now?
In other words does he preach daily in hell/hades for the people that often had a real chance picking up a Bible or otherwise got a chance of hearing the Gospel?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 08, 2008, 10:48:35 PM
True.
But Jesus preached to them that never heard of Him because they lived before Jesus.
Does Jesus also preach for those that die now?
In other words does he preach daily in hell/hades for the people that often had a real chance picking up a Bible or otherwise got a chance of hearing the Gospel?

Jesus preached and gave additional opportunities to people who rejected the preaching of Noah. I see no reason why Jesus won't do the same to everybody.

I can tell you exactly where Hitler is, if you can tell me where the 50 million people that he killed are.  How about the 6 million Jews that died at Hitler's hands?  According to traditional, mainstream Christianity, every single one of those Jews that died without ever having embraced Jesus as Lord is right now in eternal separation from God or being burned alive forever and ever with their sentence having been passed from the very moment that their earthly tabernacle was removed from them. 

What about Ghandi??  What about Mother Teresa since she died a devout Catholic and most Protestants will say that Catholics aren't Christians??  Neither of them were Bible-thumping right-wing fundamentalists.  What about any one of a hundred different humanitarians during the last couple of centuries that could be brought up that gave everything that they had to alleviate some area of suffering, but who might not have prayed a "sinner's prayer," yet accomplished more than ten thousand missionary societies in taking care of the least of these, Jesus's brethren??  According to mainstream Christianity, if they didn't learn how to pronounce His Name correctly before it was forever too late, and if they didn't directly tell others of Him, they're in the torments of the damned right now -- never to escape or be shown any mercy, because they'd offended His Majesty by their sinful lives.  But after all, torment's more preferrable to them than life, right?  Sin's more preferrable to them than righteousness, right??  So says the Hitler-Juniors of mainstream evangelicalism...

Yeah. I think God rather has 1 billion atheist Mother Teresa types than one church going Hitler.
But that's purely my reasoning I can't backup with a single verse. Just an overall 'Bible feeling' I have.

Another wild guess of mine is that God rather has practicing Christians who know the Word fairly well, than theoretical heartless study robots who's only good deeds are scaring the crap out of people with stories from hell....

John answered this question on KingdomTalk

http://www.kingdomlife.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=969

QuoteA Question

Quote:
________________________________________________________________________
Hey John,

Will Judas Iscariot, Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ghengis Khan and Nero be in heaven?
________________________________________________________________________

The Supreme Judge who does not lie says this:

Isaiah 2:1. The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 25:6. And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 57:16. For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. 17. For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18. I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 19. I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him.

Isaiah 66:18. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 21. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 53:1. Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 5:25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 10:28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hosea 13:14. I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Revelation 1:18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 9:6. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Revelation 6:9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the (Heavenly ) altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes (Revelation 19:8, Romans 5:15-21) were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Romans 14:4. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand (not perish) before the judgment seat of Christ. 11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

What are those scriptures saying to you? I wrote none of those scriptures! God did it through those writers a couple of thousand years ago! Blesses are all those wuth seeing eyes, hearing ears and minds that understand! They shall know the loving kindness of the of our Creator-Father! If you have the mean spirit and mad mind of a bitter "elder son", you will feel like those scriptures are a pot of boiling oil thrown at you from your computer screen!

John,
GOOD NEWS , Inc.

Picture this:

Hitler invites Eva Braun to say a "sinner's prayer" just before he does her in.  Saved.

Before blowing his brains out he repents pleads forgiveness. Saved

6M Jews curse Hitler and the Nazis before being ushered to their doom, none of them believe in Jesus.  Lost

Well there you have it - all logical and in line with evangelical theology. 

No one was there with Hitler in those dying moments of WWII - we merely have an historical account.

So what does that prove?

A deathbed conversion can do it sooo why rule out this scenario?

The evangelical fundies sure hate atheists and gays no less than Hitler hated Jews, were they in power like Hitler was, very likely that atheists and gays would be persecuted and possibly put to death.

It all makes sense now.

3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

--Proverbs 15


Jeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Paul was the Ultimate criminal...the WORST of the WORST..murdering the Church...Doesnt THIS give us an example to all..

Luk 23:39  And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.


Luk 23:40  But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?


Luk 23:41  And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.


Luk 23:42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Faith is our victory, the THIEF on the cross Knew the ONE NEXT TO HIM, Just why do some flesh feel more special than others...., WE ALL kILLED CHRIST....is there a BIGGER CRIME.,,if THERE is.please tell me.?

Taffy

willieH: Hi Molly...  :happygrin:

ALL things are of GOD Molly... For ALL THINGS,  ...ARE of HIS CREATION... (Col 1:16)  ...this includes every detail of EVERY THING!

It is HE which works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL (not mans) (Eph 1:11)

Truly, we shall find ourselves RID of the portions of ourselves, which are NOT of CHRIST...  But this is as a baby being washed of its soiled diapers and then rejoices in the comfort and cleanliness of its bath, not TORMENTED in its bath, nor looking toward punishment (for its "misdeed") which is to be FEARED...

FEAR is the message of IMPERFECTION... and is NOT part of the message of LOVE.

1 John 4:18 

There is NO FEAR ...IN LOVE... but PERFECT LOVE, casteth OUT FEAR; ...because FEAR hath TORMENT...   He that FEARETH is NOT made PERFECT, ...in LOVE.

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PM
3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

--Proverbs 15

Prov 20:24

Mans GOINGS are of YHVH;  ...how CAN a man then UNDERSTAND, his OWN WAY?

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PMJeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

HIS "WAYS"?  What does the Scripture say of MAN's "WAYS"?  (see above and below!)

Jer 10:23

O YHVH, I know that the WAY of MAN, is NOT IN HIMSELF... NOT ...IN... Man that walketh, to DIRECT his STEPS...

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PMGalatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

These are words of RECONCILIATION Molly, ...not of some "reward/punishment" program... that GOD thrust us into...  We are placed here and MADE according to HIS WILL,  the WAY we shall be MADE by HIM, ...not according to OUR OWN WAY under the illusion that we are somehow in part, SELF MADE... (sewing/reaping)...

We SEW because YHVH has ordained that which we SEW... and REAP, because YHVH has ordained that which we REAP... it is not some agenda created by MAN... it is according to the agenda of ETERNITY which GOD lays before us...

REWARD is not some "pat on the back" ceremony to come... it is the GRACE of GOD shed upon ALL... which brings ALL back unto Himself...  We ALL have had part in the establishment of EVIL in the face and comparison of GOOD... and BOTH shall serve to EXALT GOD, who JESUS said... IS GOOD...

Some are molded of the LIGHT (spirit), while in this DARK (natural) world, to display the (spiritual) LIGHT in this scenario, ...and do not require as much final "sculpting" (judgment), as those who are molded (marred) in the DARKNESS of this world, which DO...

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS... so each gets the SAME from Him at the CONCLUSION of HIS Creation effort in each...   :grouppray: :boogie:

It is about HIM  :thumbsup:  Sister M, ...not about US...  :mshock:

Which is WHY, ...HE is due ALL GLORY...  That He has decided to SHARE that GLORY ...WITH us, is just our good fortune -- eh?  :bgdance:

As GOD gets that GLORY, ...HE... is thereby magnified... which is as it SHOULD BE!

Jer 29:14

And I will be found of you, saith YHVH, and I WILL TURN YOU AWAY from YOUR CAPTIVITY, and I WILL GATHER YOU from ALL NATIONS, and from ALL PLACES whither ...I... have DRIVEN YOU, saith YHVH... and I WILL BRING YOU ...again... into the PLACE, whence ...I... have CAUSED YOU, to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE...

GOD IS not "mocked" because HE cannot be "mocked" Molly... can the VASE mock the POTTER?  When have you seen such occur?

The vase is MARRED ...IN the HAND, and OF the action and INTENT, ...OF THE POTTER!

Jer 18:4

And the VESSEL that HE MADE of CLAY, ...was MARRED, ...in the HAND of the POTTER:  so HE MADE it again ANOTHER VESSEL, as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to MAKE...

The "CLAY" did not MAR itself!  It was MADE as "marred" sis...

ALL MEN, shall be cleansed of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in the here and now sister M... before the conclusion of the LAST DAY (which quickly approaches)...

What did JESUS say of those attempting to "mock" Him sis?

Luke 23:34 

Then said JESUS... Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT, what THEY ...DO...

Why did He SAY "they KNOW NOT what THEY ...DO?"  ...Because the SCRIPTURE says it sis...

Man KNOWS NOT his OWN WAY (GOINGS)... as I quoted above...

Luke 23:36

...and the soldiers also MOCKED Him, coming to Him and offering Him vinegar...

:reachout:  Willie :hithere:

QuoteFEAR is the message of IMPERFECTION... and is NOT part of the message of LOVE.

Proverbs 9:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 1:7   The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Those verses sound to me fear is something good.
Maybe imperfect because the fearful are just at the start of the path toward God??? 

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 10:48:13 PM
:reachout:  Willie :hithere:

QuoteFEAR is the message of IMPERFECTION... and is NOT part of the message of LOVE.

Proverbs 9:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 1:7   The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Those verses sound to me fear is something good.
Maybe imperfect because the fearful are just at the start of the path toward God??? 

WW.

FEAR can be understood two ways ,Like many other words In scripture...THERES THE  fear of THOSE  WHO DWELL in the ministry of DEATH  BEING.... PERFECT LOVE(CASTS OUT FEAR) that P.L .being Christ in US...


Then theres fear which I see as Reverence in those verses qouted aboVe..The reverance of WISDOM ( christ is that beginning of wisdom 1Cr 1:24)/ ALSO HE  is the LIGHT of KNOWLEDGE(2Cr 4:6) we are NOT talking head knowledge and wisdom either...

so yes..I would agree....

Alright, who here thinks that Hitler didn't know it was wrong to kill millions of people--and I'm including all the civilians and soldiers who died in the war he and his buddies started.

Hitler and his buddies were satanists.  They knew what they were doing.  And, God knows that they knew.

Perfect love casts out fear is for our benefit.  We are not to be afraid of satan.  Resist him and he will flee.

But the fear of God (of his awesome power and presence) is the beginning of wisdom.

"fear" of the LORD (Prov 1:7)

H3374
יראה
yir'âh
yir-aw'
Feminine of H3373; fear (also used as infinitive); morally reverence: -  X dreadful, X exceedingly, fear (-fulness).

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 11:41:46 PM
Alright, who here thinks that Hitler didn't know it was wrong to kill millions of people--and I'm including all the civilians and soldiers who died in the war he and his buddies started.

Hitler and his buddies were satanists.  They knew what they were doing.  And, God knows that they knew.

Perfect love casts out fear is for our benefit.  We are not to be afraid of satan.  Resist him and he will flee.

But the fear of God (of his awesome power and presence) is the beginning of wisdom.

what you mean like the theif on the Cross who KNEW he desrved Death and the wrong HE DID,,but Christ forgave him never the less,,or Paul who persecuted HIS own....

you obviously respect Flesh molly, in that some are worse than  others....you really miss the POINT

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 10:48:13 PM
:reachout:  Willie :hithere:

QuoteFEAR is the message of IMPERFECTION... and is NOT part of the message of LOVE.

Proverbs 9:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 1:7   The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Those verses sound to me fear is something good.
Maybe imperfect because the fearful are just at the start of the path toward God??? 

Fear mentioned there is not the scary emotion, it is an awareness of something greater than yourself. Being that I live in the Rocky Mountains, we go to Banff and Radium Hot Springs, and everytime it is just amazing to see these massive structures the earth produced that God created. It's magnitude just stuns a person in awe.

Fear = yir'ah
1) fear, terror, fearing
....a) fear, terror
....b) awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)
....c) fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
....d) revered

The better translation would be:
The awe of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy is understanding.
The awe of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Here is a reference to pachad in Job,

Awe = pachad
1) Terror, Dread

Job 25:2-6
"Dominion and awe [pachad] belong to God; he establishes order in the heights of heaven.
Can his forces be numbered? Upon whom does his light not rise?
How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure?
If even the moon is not bright and the stars are not pure in his eyes, how much less man, who is but a maggot - a son of man, who is only a worm!"

Either way by the context used, it is not telling us to be afraid of God, it is to be aware of who we are in comparison to God, the understanding and realization of how significant God and how insignificant we are to Him as a result. The fact He could squash us with a Word, and the more amazing attribute which we know He won't.

That is the beginning of knowledge, that is the beginning of wisdom.

Quoteyou obviously respect Flesh molly, in that some are worse than  others....you really miss the POINT

It would never in my wildest dreams occur to me to kill millions of people so that I can be rich and powerful.

Much less worship a deity who would help me achieve that goal.


Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 11:58:47 PM

Quoteyou obviously respect Flesh molly, in that some are worse than  others....you really miss the POINT

It would never in my wildest dreams occur to me to kill millions of people so that I can be rich and powerful.

Much less worship a deity who would help me achieve that goal.


Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

you answered my post Molly..INDEED YOU DO respect some flesh more than others..and yours above much...Like I said Molly " you miss the point..or maybe choose to miss it"""""

Quote from: SOtW on August 12, 2008, 11:57:00 PM
The awe of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy is understanding.

That little word explained it all to me.
Thanks Craig. :thumbsup:

I respect the Word become flesh.

We are to be the light of the world--not those giving Hitlers free passes.

What he and his buddies did was wrong and it was evil beyond measure.

Here ya go Molly, off again in that which is totally unrelated to the what we are talking off...EVEN THOU YOU STARTED IT...

Good night Molly, Must go Kick the Dog..its chewing me slippers

Blessings Taffy

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2008, 12:04:00 AM

Quote from: SOtW on August 12, 2008, 11:57:00 PM
The awe of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy is understanding.

That little word explained it all to me.
Thanks Craig. :thumbsup:

No problem.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 12, 2008, 10:48:13 PM
:reachout:  Willie :hithere:

QuoteFEAR is the message of IMPERFECTION... and is NOT part of the message of LOVE.

Proverbs 9:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 1:7   The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Those verses sound to me fear is something good.
Maybe imperfect because the fearful are just at the start of the path toward God??? 

FEAR... as in RESPECT and AWE... NOT ...DREAD and TERROR!

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 11:41:46 PM
Alright, who here thinks that Hitler didn't know it was wrong to kill millions of people--and I'm including all the civilians and soldiers who died in the war he and his buddies started.

Hitler and his buddies were satanists.  They knew what they were doing.  And, God knows that they knew.

How do YOU know this?  Let's face it Molly, you are just repeating something someone else has said of them... because YOU weren't there, YOU didnt KNOW them, and YOU are not an EYE WITNESS of this statement!

And besides, GOD KNEW before even, THEY ..."KNEW"!  As I said... ALL THINGS Molly... not just some...

GOD KNEW what Hitler & Co. would do, yet brought them forth regardless... and LET them do what they DID, without lifting a finger to stop it...

Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2008, 12:04:45 AM
I respect the Word become flesh.

We are to be the light of the world--not those giving Hitlers free passes.

What he and his buddies did was wrong and it was evil beyond measure.

Did YOU not get a "FREE PASS" Molly?  :dontknow: ...Did you DESERVE it? :dunno:

If you consider Hitler an "enemy" of sorts better FORGIVE HIM Molly!  Or you DISOBEY the CHRIST you profess to follow...

"Let Him without sin, cast the first stone"... JESUS CHRIST

I'm not sure we are supposed to look back, Willie, like Lot's wife.


So I will say that I am without sin.



1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


But, as for Hitler and Co. and his satanic comerades--


Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Molly

Kicked the dog.. its posts such as this which causes me to DETEST religion..

seems Molly ,the god you know limits Forgivness..That Christ died only for the righteous , and NOT for Mankind.

Forgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

One day Molly you Just maY come to understand..How sinful , SIN is.....and you will., but it starts and ends WITH YOU...forgive the lack of scripture..falls on deaf ears anyways...
T

Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2008, 01:32:30 AM
I'm not sure we are supposed to look back, Willie, like Lot's wife.


So I will say that I am without sin.

The Apostle John said THIS about such a statement as you have just made in your own words:

1 John 1:8

If we ...SAY... "we have no sin" we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US.

Quote from: Molly1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


But, as for Hitler and Co. and his satanic comerades--


Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

You conveniently isolate the GRACE of God for yourself Molly... and in that process, deduce it works otherwise for other sinners...

My Bible says:  Where SIN abounded GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND...

Quote from: willieH on August 12, 2008, 10:08:43 PM
willieH: Hi Molly...  :happygrin:

ALL things are of GOD Molly... For ALL THINGS,  ...ARE of HIS CREATION... (Col 1:16)  ...this includes every detail of EVERY THING!

It is HE which works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL (not mans) (Eph 1:11)

Truly, we shall find ourselves RID of the portions of ourselves, which are NOT of CHRIST...  But this is as a baby being washed of its soiled diapers and then rejoices in the comfort and cleanliness of its bath, not TORMENTED in its bath, nor looking toward punishment (for its "misdeed") which is to be FEARED...

FEAR is the message of IMPERFECTION... and is NOT part of the message of LOVE.

1 John 4:18 

There is NO FEAR ...IN LOVE... but PERFECT LOVE, casteth OUT FEAR; ...because FEAR hath TORMENT...   He that FEARETH is NOT made PERFECT, ...in LOVE.

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PM
3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

--Proverbs 15

Prov 20:24

Mans GOINGS are of YHVH;  ...how CAN a man then UNDERSTAND, his OWN WAY?

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PMJeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

HIS "WAYS"?  What does the Scripture say of MAN's "WAYS"?  (see above and below!)

Jer 10:23

O YHVH, I know that the WAY of MAN, is NOT IN HIMSELF... NOT ...IN... Man that walketh, to DIRECT his STEPS...

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 05:32:48 PMGalatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

These are words of RECONCILIATION Molly, ...not of some "reward/punishment" program... that GOD thrust us into...  We are placed here and MADE according to HIS WILL,  the WAY we shall be MADE by HIM, ...not according to OUR OWN WAY under the illusion that we are somehow in part, SELF MADE... (sewing/reaping)...

We SEW because YHVH has ordained that which we SEW... and REAP, because YHVH has ordained that which we REAP... it is not some agenda created by MAN... it is according to the agenda of ETERNITY which GOD lays before us...

REWARD is not some "pat on the back" ceremony to come... it is the GRACE of GOD shed upon ALL... which brings ALL back unto Himself...  We ALL have had part in the establishment of EVIL in the face and comparison of GOOD... and BOTH shall serve to EXALT GOD, who JESUS said... IS GOOD...

Some are molded of the LIGHT (spirit), while in this DARK (natural) world, to display the (spiritual) LIGHT in this scenario, ...and do not require as much final "sculpting" (judgment), as those who are molded (marred) in the DARKNESS of this world, which DO...

GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS... so each gets the SAME from Him at the CONCLUSION of HIS Creation effort in each...   :grouppray: :boogie:

It is about HIM  :thumbsup:  Sister M, ...not about US...  :mshock:

Which is WHY, ...HE is due ALL GLORY...  That He has decided to SHARE that GLORY ...WITH us, is just our good fortune -- eh?  :bgdance:

As GOD gets that GLORY, ...HE... is thereby magnified... which is as it SHOULD BE!

Jer 29:14

And I will be found of you, saith YHVH, and I WILL TURN YOU AWAY from YOUR CAPTIVITY, and I WILL GATHER YOU from ALL NATIONS, and from ALL PLACES whither ...I... have DRIVEN YOU, saith YHVH... and I WILL BRING YOU ...again... into the PLACE, whence ...I... have CAUSED YOU, to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE...

GOD IS not "mocked" because HE cannot be "mocked" Molly... can the VASE mock the POTTER?  When have you seen such occur?

The vase is MARRED ...IN the HAND, and OF the action and INTENT, ...OF THE POTTER!

Jer 18:4

And the VESSEL that HE MADE of CLAY, ...was MARRED, ...in the HAND of the POTTER:  so HE MADE it again ANOTHER VESSEL, as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to MAKE...

The "CLAY" did not MAR itself!  It was MADE as "marred" sis...

ALL MEN, shall be cleansed of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in the here and now sister M... before the conclusion of the LAST DAY (which quickly approaches)...

What did JESUS say of those attempting to "mock" Him sis?

Luke 23:34 

Then said JESUS... Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT, what THEY ...DO...

Why did He SAY "they KNOW NOT what THEY ...DO?"  ...Because the SCRIPTURE says it sis...

Man KNOWS NOT his OWN WAY (GOINGS)... as I quoted above...

Luke 23:36

...and the soldiers also MOCKED Him, coming to Him and offering Him vinegar...

peacE...

...willieH  :icon_king:

What an amazing post, Willie! Thank you for taking the time to share that.
It was truly uplifting.  :icon_flower:
Peace, bro.
your sis,
sparrow :HeartThrob:

QuoteIf we ...SAY... "we have no sin" we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is not IN US.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.




1 Corinthians 1:8-9
8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.



1 Corinthians 4:2
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

QuoteForgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Ps it looks like Hitler & co could be responsible for 60-100 million deaths, most of whom were civilians.

Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2008, 04:03:03 AM

QuoteForgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Hitler's life will ultimately be a lesson for all...
That nothing can stop God's love for his children.
There is nothing that we can do, living on earth as human beings... that will make our Father stop loving us. There is nothing...
NOTHING more powerful than love.
What if, Molly... picture this in your mind.
Let your guard down for a moment and picture this scene in your mind:
Hitler dies. God appears before Hitler. God looks like a Jewish man to Hitler.
Hitler falls down at the feet of God, trembling..... a great crowd of people surround God...
These are men, women and children that were murdered under Hitler's regime.
Hitler sees them surrounding God... Hitler trembles.
The people reach out their hands and help Hitler up, showing him nothing but love and compassion.
Hitler is completely and utterly in shock at this unfathomable show of love towards him...
He asks "why?" They point to God and say "because of His love for US..."
There are NO "Hitlers" in heaven, Molly.
We are all in this TOGETHER.
There is NOTHING more powerful than LOVE.
For GOD is LOVE!
There are no murderers, liars, thieves in heaven.
On earth, yes.... but not in heaven.
People lie, steal and kill because of a lack of love. That is at the ROOT of everything that is wrong in this world. When we pass over... our Father will fill us with such love.... we will become new. He will wipe away every tear. This is a promise.

When you condemn a human being, you are condemning yourself.
We are all God's children. We are all in this together.
When you look down your nose at others, when you put their sins on display, when you puff yourself up by condemning another... you are worse than the person you are condemning.

We're all brothers and sisters.... and God will purge all that is wrong with our hearts. We will all love each other with pure agape love someday. This is the way it is supposed to be... It will be beyond our wildest dreams.

Be HAPPY that Hitler is finally rid of what made him the way he was... He is finally rid of it. He is filled with love. Imagine that...
So the next time someone says "hmmmmpph! I don't want to share a room in heaven with Hitler" I would say with a smile on my face "I'll trade with you, I'll share a room with Hitler" because Hitler will undoubtedly be so completely filled with love, appreciation, and awe for God... that I would WANT to be around him. I would WANT to see that transformation. That GLORIOUS HEAVENLY transformation... that only GOD can do. What a sight that must be. To see Hitler and the people he had murdered on earth, holding hands and praising God....

Only GOD can put an image like THAT in your mind.

peace.

Quote from: sparrow on August 13, 2008, 04:34:50 AM

Let your guard down for a moment and picture this scene in your mind:
Hitler dies. God appears before Hitler. God looks like a Jewish man to Hitler.
Hitler falls down at the feet of God, trembling..... a great crowd of people surround God...
These are men, women and children that were murdered under Hitler's regime.
Hitler sees them surrounding God... Hitler trembles.
The people reach out their hands and help Hitler up, showing him nothing but love and compassion.
Hitler is completely and utterly in shock at this unfathomable show of love towards him...
He asks "why?" They point to God and say "because of His love for US..."
There are NO "Hitlers" in heaven, Molly.
We are all in this TOGETHER.
There is NOTHING more powerful than LOVE.
For GOD is LOVE!

That is a great scenario and while my flesh still gets in the way of evil doers, I also know that I can't help but envision that myself as I read the scriptures of Gods rehabilitative chastisment and unconditional love.

Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2008, 04:03:03 AM
will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

:mrflo: Not sure if I can go there, Molly :dontknow:  Not sure who I'd [accidentally] be picking on if I said that all facial hair ['cept for eyebrows, of course] shall have it's part in the Lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death, and the smoke of it's torment shall ascend forever and ever :icon_jokercolor:

Jesus said on the Cross when they were crucifying Him, "Father, forgive them.  They don't know what they're doing!"  Did Jesus lie, or was He filtering even that sin against Him through His own Blood?  They knew they were executing someone.  They were enjoying it.  They knew that some were saying He was a prophet, while others were saying He was the God of the Jews, fulfilling hundreds of years of prophecy.  The first letter of each word in Hebrew above His head spelled out YHVH.  Yet Luke 23:34 says what it says.  Hundreds of hours of the Word of God [with accuracy and God's Anointing] was being preached/taught around them through Jesus' ministry.  Yet with greater light than Hitler ever had in early 20th century Germany, Jesus could say "Father, forgive them.  They don't know what they're doing!"

Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2008, 04:03:03 AM

QuoteForgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Ps it looks like Hitler & co could be responsible for 60-100 million deaths, most of whom were civilians.

Good Morning Molly.

It was your post that was being addressed Molly...and for sure I dont convince anybody, just added to the pot , Gods unconditional Love for the Thief on the Cross and saul for comparison...Expounded  then by Willie and continued by others.

Guess you dont like Tashes either ,but that really is incidental. :laughing7:

Now if its bigotry  then thats a different matter.

Taffy

heh.. by the way Molly.. My father and his mother's side of the family are Jewish.

:HeartThrob:

Guys, do you remember in the beginning of this thread, I said it is not worth addressing. Do you know why? Because it is called the Hitler Card, it is meant to degrade a discussion and not focus on what is important. The Hitler Card is a fallacy which gets people to begin to participate in ad hominem attacks against each other and inadvertently have people side with Hitler or indirectly defend his actions until there it breaks down into anarchy since it would then be justifiable not to agree with someone who sides or defends Hitler. It is a vicious cycle.  :msealed:

Craig,
I can understand you that by using Hitler things can become very sensitive. Not only on this board I add
I can only speak for myself why I still pull the Hitler card.
When someone writes "Hitler" no long explanations are needed. It's clear we are talking about a major sinner not just a kid who stole a cookie.
I like to add that I don't look at those defending Hitler as nazi's but just people speaking how they very honestly read/understand the Bible.

To stay on topic a question.
There are some verses, please don't ask me where to find them, about workmen that get paid by the hour. At the very end of the day the last workman arrives. All get paid the same salary. Some where unhappy with it. But the reply they got was something like "you got the salary that was promised to you"
Does Hitler (sorry Craig) fit into this picture.
I'm sure Hitler did at least 1 good thing in his life. So God pays him the full salary. Being forgiving and admitting him into Heaven?
I sincerely hope I at least understood one parable  :laughing7:

willieH: Hi Sparrow... :hithere:

Quote from: sparrow on August 13, 2008, 04:34:50 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 13, 2008, 04:03:03 AM

QuoteForgive those................., nope, ONLY forgive  only those LIKE US...., let the rest BURN, for they deserve it, cause for sure MOLLY, IT SOUNDS VERY MUCH, you DONT have in you to Forgive Mr Hitler.....Stalin et all...let them get there Just deserts..

well, you are trying to convince this poor lady that it's ok if she gets to heaven and finds herself bunking with Hitler.  If you can't convince me, how can you convince her?

will they at least make him shave off the disgusting mustache?

Seriously, I'm surprised you can't see the dilemma from her point of view.

Hitler's life will ultimately be a lesson for all...
That nothing can stop God's love for his children.
There is nothing that we can do, living on earth as human beings... that will make our Father stop loving us. There is nothing...
NOTHING more powerful than love.
What if, Molly... picture this in your mind.
Let your guard down for a moment and picture this scene in your mind:
Hitler dies. God appears before Hitler. God looks like a Jewish man to Hitler.
Hitler falls down at the feet of God, trembling..... a great crowd of people surround God...
These are men, women and children that were murdered under Hitler's regime.
Hitler sees them surrounding God... Hitler trembles.
The people reach out their hands and help Hitler up, showing him nothing but love and compassion.
Hitler is completely and utterly in shock at this unfathomable show of love towards him...
He asks "why?" They point to God and say "because of His love for US..."
There are NO "Hitlers" in heaven, Molly.
We are all in this TOGETHER.
There is NOTHING more powerful than LOVE.
For GOD is LOVE!
There are no murderers, liars, thieves in heaven.
On earth, yes.... but not in heaven.
People lie, steal and kill because of a lack of love. That is at the ROOT of everything that is wrong in this world. When we pass over... our Father will fill us with such love.... we will become new. He will wipe away every tear. This is a promise.

When you condemn a human being, you are condemning yourself.
We are all God's children. We are all in this together.
When you look down your nose at others, when you put their sins on display, when you puff yourself up by condemning another... you are worse than the person you are condemning.

We're all brothers and sisters.... and God will purge all that is wrong with our hearts. We will all love each other with pure agape love someday. This is the way it is supposed to be... It will be beyond our wildest dreams.

Be HAPPY that Hitler is finally rid of what made him the way he was... He is finally rid of it. He is filled with love. Imagine that...
So the next time someone says "hmmmmpph! I don't want to share a room in heaven with Hitler" I would say with a smile on my face "I'll trade with you, I'll share a room with Hitler" because Hitler will undoubtedly be so completely filled with love, appreciation, and awe for God... that I would WANT to be around him. I would WANT to see that transformation. That GLORIOUS HEAVENLY transformation... that only GOD can do. What a sight that must be. To see Hitler and the people he had murdered on earth, holding hands and praising God....

Only GOD can put an image like THAT in your mind.

peace.

:goodpost:

As well said as is possible sister Sparrow!  :high5:

Thanks for this vision of the ETERNAL LOVE of GOD!  :thumbsup:

How encouraging to think that the transformation of such as HITLER, will be of the wonders of ETERNITY that shouts of the power, majesty and LOVE of GOD!  :happyclap: :boogie:

I actually like the cookie jar thief analogy better.


God banished him to hell for WHAT!!!!!    Oh thats right,  Johnny sent himself there,  hope that was a damn good cookie.

Molly talked about 60-100 million people being killed by Hitler, but the whole idea of Hitler burning in Hell for this presumes that there will only ever be one version of history.  But if prophecy is truly the conveyance of information from the future by the grace of a God transcendent to time, and if we truly have the option changing the outcome by heeding prophetic warnings as the Bible unquestionably affirms, then a multiplicity of timelines must be an integral part of reality or the entire structure of reality is logically inconsistent, something that would turn God into a liar.

The logic of time-symmetric caution is an unappreciated truth that is integral to the message of the Bible.  And given this, we can no more judge Hitler for the his actions on this version of history, for we ourselves may have been mass murders on some other version of history.  And likewise, there may be "future" versions of history in which Hitler was a successful artist and no war nor holocaust at all.

In addition, 60-100 million people where not personally killed by Hitler, but by an entire society misaligned to the Will of God.  And this number is notably smaller than the 300-500 million people that have been aborted in the US since 1973 when we take the hidden abortions inherent to many forms of contraception into account, and thus our own society is every bit as guilty as Nazi Germany for the sin of mass murder.

I've clarified my presentation of trans-temporal salvation in my most recent post.  It references the mystical insights of Philip K. Dick, uses the situation with Hitler as a prime example of the trans-temporal process, then addresses the abortion issue.  It can be found in the third post on this  thread. (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3121.0) It's a bit long but worth reading, for the evil of Hitler is finished, while the evil of abortion could drive this world to apocalyptic destruction.  I show the exact logic of why this could happen, please read it.

Quote from: True Believer on August 13, 2008, 10:52:45 PM
Molly talked about 60-100 million people being killed by Hitler, but the whole idea of Hitler burning in Hell for this presumes that there will only ever be one version of history.  But if prophecy is truly the conveyance of information from the future by the grace of a God transcendent to time, and if we truly have the option changing the outcome by heeding prophetic warnings as the Bible unquestionably affirms, then a multiplicity of timelines must be an integral part of reality or the entire structure of reality is logically inconsistent, something that would turn God into a liar.

The logic of time-symmetric caution is an unappreciated truth that is integral to the message of the Bible.  And given this, we can no more judge Hitler for the his actions on this version of history, for we ourselves may have been mass murders on some other version of history.  And likewise, there may be "future" versions of history in which Hitler was a successful artist and no war nor holocaust at all.

You know what, I am guessing I am the only one who understood what you just said. I touched on this in: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3109.msg31787#msg31787. Origen had speculated on this perspective of reality, and that the wicked progressively learn from their mistakes by re-living their current life after they die. That is why he was accused of re-incarnation, and other gnostic views which were not what he was talking about. He was talking about quantum reality, and not many people can understand this even now.

QuoteIn addition, 60-100 million people where not personally killed by Hitler, but by an entire society misaligned to the Will of God.  And this number is notably smaller than the 300-500 million people that have been aborted in the US since 1973 when we take the hidden abortions inherent to many forms of contraception into account, and thus our own society is every bit as guilty as Nazi Germany for the sin of mass murder.

You got it!

Thank you, you are true Steward of the Word. 

QuoteYou know what, I am guessing I am the only one who understood what you just said. I touched on this in: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3109.msg31787#msg31787.

I was going to reference your message but was looking for it in this thread and couldn't find it.  The only thing I would add is that no choice is ever set in stone by our own actions, but only by the Power of God affirming that choice as a part of His plan.  It is a reality in which even the deepest of mistakes can be forgiven so thoroughly that they "never happened in the first place."

QuoteOrigen had speculated on this perspective of reality, and that the wicked progressively learn from their mistakes by re-living their current life after they die. That is why he was accused of re-incarnation, and other gnostic views which were not what he was talking about. He was talking about quantum reality, and not many people can understand this even now.

I'm glad to hear that a Christian Saint of the early church talked about people re-living their lives.  It is a reality that very few modern people talk about.  I feel it is important to look much more deeply at the writings of Origen, for he was close enough to the Apostolic era to be much less corrupted by the traditions of man and machinations of politics.

I'm also glad to see your support for the abortion issue, for the reality of universal redemption has not been very well addressed for the millions of fetuses being aborted (or billions if you consider those happening worldwide).  It is a life or death issue that we must wake up to.

Quote from: True Believer on August 14, 2008, 01:09:43 AM
It is a reality in which even the deepest of mistakes can be forgiven so thoroughly that they "never happened in the first place.

Check this out:

This is a quote from a paper on Pre-Destination prior to my understanding of Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation. I wrote a few years ago based on what I experienced at age 13:

QuoteThe three-dimensional being can easily change the circumstance and result without you actually even realizing it, so now instead of A -------------------------- C you have A ------ C. However, since you are a two dimensional being, you actually have not memory of A -------------------------- C nor of A -------------------------- B you have only the knowledge that the life you live is now A ------ C.

If you read the context, it is talking about repentance and forgiveness. It literally never did happen in the first place.

This line of thought reminds me of the movie The Butterfly Effect, except instead of things getting worse, they get better.

20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

--Gen 18









4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

--Rev 18

Posting Scripture with no explanation or commentary, doesn't really help the conversation. It just looks like you are copy and pasting  Scripture without understanding what it is you are writing.

Quote from: Molly on August 12, 2008, 11:58:47 PM

Quoteyou obviously respect Flesh molly, in that some are worse than  others....you really miss the POINT

It would never in my wildest dreams occur to me to kill millions of people so that I can be rich and powerful.

Much less worship a deity who would help me achieve that goal.


Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Molly,

Therefore you can say "but by the grace of God go I".  You could just as well have been like Hitler but God chose you not to be.

Think about Judas, he was chosen to do what he did, so was Joseph's brothers, Pharaoh, Satan, those who had a hand in crucifying Christ, and Hitler. You was chosen to do as you are doing.

CHB

Hi Molly,

You quote the Bible in reply #65 to remind us of the many passages that depict a wrathful God who smites wrongdoers.  In an earlier post, you commented that Hitler and his associates where Satanists, a bit of an overstatement, but related to the generally agreed fact that Hitler & Co were deeply involved in the occult.  Putting two and two together, Hitler and associates were wrongdoers worthy of being smitten.  I agree totally, but caution that we not draw our sights too narrow in seeing how this may occur.

Indeed, he lost a war that by any stretch of rational logic he should have won.  According to Philip K Dick, God went so far as to change the past to assure that Hitler lost the war.  I would say he was smitten in a pretty big way.   And given the reports of what people experience in NDE's, it is likely that if he is not in a hellish realm being tormented by demons because he fled the light of God, he will undoubtedly have had (or be having) a panoramic life review in which he personally feels every pain that he has inflicted on every single victim from that victim's point of view, something that could be almost as bad as being tormented by demons.

His current punishments, however, have no bearing whatsoever on the subject of universal redemption, for the simple fact that Jesus will eventually weave Hitler into an alternative timeline in which he makes an entirely different set of choices in which WWII and the holocaust never happen.  And via the ongoing progression of these timelines, he will receive both the fullness of life and total redemption along each and every other person who has ever been conceived.  This is the only logic that can truly reconcile the certainty of punishment and the promise of UR in any straightforward way.  This is God's logic, a logic that the Bible strongly affirms if we look deeply enough.

Quote from: Sarah on August 14, 2008, 03:01:42 AM
This line of thought reminds me of the movie The Butterfly Effect, except instead of things getting worse, they get better.

Yes, or another movie called Groundhog Day. I am not convinced fully on the trans-dimensional theory of redemption, but I am familiar with it and at one time believed that is how Pre-Destination worked. I still hold to the belief that this is one of the many options in which AIONIOS KOLASIS works.

Quote from: True Believer on August 14, 2008, 07:26:23 PM
Hi Molly,

You quote the Bible in reply #65 to remind us of the many passages that depict a wrathful God who smites wrongdoers.  In an earlier post, you commented that Hitler and his associates where Satanists, a bit of an overstatement, but related to the generally agreed fact that Hitler & Co were deeply involved in the occult.  Putting two and two together, Hitler and associates were wrongdoers worthy of being smitten.  I agree totally, but caution that we not draw our sights too narrow in seeing how this may occur.

Indeed, he lost a war that by any stretch of rational logic he should have won.  According to Philip K Dick, God went so far as to change the past to assure that Hitler lost the war.  I would say he was smitten in a pretty big way.   And given the reports of what people experience in NDE's, it is likely that if he is not in a hellish realm being tormented by demons because he fled the light of God, he will undoubtedly have had (or be having) a panoramic life review in which he personally feels every pain that he has inflicted on every single victim from that victim's point of view, something that could be almost as bad as being tormented by demons.

His current punishments, however, have no bearing whatsoever on the subject of universal redemption, for the simple fact that Jesus will eventually weave Hitler into an alternative timeline in which he makes an entirely different set of choices in which WWII and the holocaust never happen.  And via the ongoing progression of these timelines, he will receive both the fullness of life and total redemption along each and every other person who has ever been conceived.  This is the only logic that can truly reconcile the certainty of punishment and the promise of UR in any straightforward way.  This is God's logic, a logic that the Bible strongly affirms if we look deeply enough.

Hi truebeliever--

Is there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

Life and death is put before us every day of the week--we are admonished to choose life.

The only way any war can happen is if satan's minions agree amongst themselves to fund both sides, and nobody else opposes them.  They love death (someone else's) and they choose death (someone else's).  I watched recently the battle of D day--wow they even photograph death for their future viewing pleasure--and I had to ask myself, what kind of stupid evil men would order boys to storm a well defended beachhead, sending them to certain death?  well, that's the point of war, isn't it--to kill people? But your own side?  I didn't go to military school, but common sense dictates that is the last thing you would order your men to do--unless you want them dead.


30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and
cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may
live:

Deut 30, KJV, 1611

Molly,

Quote from:  "Molly"Is there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

This is Irrelevant. If God is in control then this is not the issue and nor can it be used as an excuse of why it cannot be true. Use sound reasoning not subjective perception.

Quote from: SOtW on August 14, 2008, 09:00:58 PM
Molly,

Quote from:  "Molly"Is there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

This is Irrelevant. If God is in control then this is not the issue and nor can it be used as an excuse of why it cannot be true. Use sound reasoning not subjective perception.

What? LOL

I have a good imagination, too.

Hi Molly,

QuoteIs there any scripture which supports this idea of alternative timelines?  It sounds like a nice science fiction story, but, like the butterfly effect, it could be frustrating, as, in that movie, everything he tried to do to change things made them worse.

My first post on the  trans-temporal salvation (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3121.0) thread begins to address the scriptural support for alternative timelines, with some clarifications in the third post.  My next post in that thread will address the scriptural challenge raised by willieH.  After that will be a very powerful indirect proof of time-symmetric causation via the Bible's systematic affirmation of a transcendent cosmic destiny.

QuoteLife and death is put before us every day of the week--we are admonished to choose life.

The only way any war can happen is if satan's minions agree amongst themselves to fund both sides, and nobody else opposes them.  They love death (someone else's) and they choose death (someone else's).  I watched recently the battle of D day--wow they even photograph death for their future viewing pleasure--and I had to ask myself, what kind of stupid evil men would order boys to storm a well defended beachhead, sending them to certain death?  well, that's the point of war, isn't it--to kill people? But your own side?  I didn't go to military school, but common sense dictates that is the last thing you would order your men to do--unless you want them dead.

30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore
choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deut 30, KJV, 1611

I'm not sure where you're going with this part.  For certain humanity has done many stupid things, and for certain evil exists to a degree.  But God is the only one who is truly transcendent which is why our failures to choose life will eventually be forgiven.  That doesn't mean we should choose death or evil because there are real consequences, but the beneovolence and power of God will prevail in the end.  In this regard, our challenge is to find the faith to choose life despite the evil and stupidity we see, and then deepen the faith so we can embrace UR, and by this means choose life at an even deeper level.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 13, 2008, 10:29:31 PM

I actually like the cookie jar thief analogy better.


God banished him to hell for WHAT!!!!!    Oh thats right,  Johnny sent himself there,  hope that was a damn good cookie.

Do you get the same punishment if you break an idol and then tell your father that one of the other idol's did it?

In response to the OP, I'm saying what made "Hitler" be "Hitler" won't any longer exist.  Once God has purged and refined him, and he has knelt (every knee will bow, every tongue confess) and confessed Jesus as His Master, all that will be left is what has been saved as by fire.  Our God is a consuming Fire, and He knows exactly what He's doing and how to do it!


Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. I Tim. 2:4

Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying,  `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.' Isa 46:10

 :cloud9: Amen, Jab..... :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on July 11, 2009, 09:13:30 AM
In response to the OP, I'm saying what made "Hitler" be "Hitler" won't any longer exist.  Once God has purged and refined him, and he has knelt (every knee will bow, every tongue confess) and confessed Jesus as His Master, all that will be left is what has been saved as by fire.  Our God is a consuming Fire, and He knows exactly what He's doing and how to do it!


Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. I Tim. 2:4

Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying,  `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.' Isa 46:10

Great post!

What is evil? NON-love.The darkness that rushes in to fill the void when there is an absence of love.

That's why we are here, to understand by way of contrast, LOVE. God is LOVE.
This world is showing us that there is nothing that we can do to escape His love.
No matter how long the arm of darkness reaches, God's loving light reaches FARTHER.
Evil will be exhausted once and for all.
When He is ALL in ALL.
How else could we live in eternity, if we didn't understand WHO God is. If we didn't truly understand Love? Every knee shall bow.
This life is preparing us for our REAL life.
His plan is PERFECT.
We are being shown daily, and then in a much bigger way when we finally see the full BIG picture, how pathetic, non-love is. How it leads to nothing but misery. I think we will be astounded at this big picture, and we look over at the cross... at LOVE personified....and be completely in awe, and that is when our knees will buckle.
This to me, is what life is about.
This life is not our real home.
We're here to learn.
God loves us.



God is showing us and will show us the ultimate effects of NON-love. Every little non-love committed, can snowball. Every single day, it all trickles down... The trickling down of non-love leaves me just astounded sometimes when I really think about it. How one person's actions can have such an impact and they don't even realize it. Sometimes our actions... we don't realize until it is too late and our hindsight is 20/20. It's an awful feeling when you get this realization coming upon you. But, even in this awful pit of despair and guilt, God shines a light down into the pit. We can do one of two things in this instance, we can sink down into it and let it swallow us whole or we can let God comfort us and know that we are in the midst of learning more about Him, learning more about love, and we are being strengthened THROUGH it. There is nothing that we can do to escape God's love. In our weakness, is where His strength can come shining through. My God.... HOW GREAT IS HE???

Cling to Him. He is the source of life.

(sorry if I went a little off-topic, I started thinking of other things, and just started rambling..lol...)
peace,
sparrow

Thanks both, praise God! 
Amen, Sister Sparrow.

Aww, I just thought about getting to see Richard Dawkins after he's turned a believer. I'm gonna give him a big hug when the time comes. lol  :bigGrin:

Sorry, it's a bit off topic, but most people probably don't think God will save him either (he's the famous atheist who wrote "The God Delusion").

Absolutely!    And I will go further than that.  I believe God is so good at what he does. At correcting and saving people.   That there very well could be,  a person in a high position in Heaven even,   who use to be Hitler. But now, because of the power of the cross of Christ,  and the ministry of the Spirit of God,  in the new birth process,   this person is now a brand new person in Christ and in love.     

See... now this is God's love shining clearly, brightly through His children.
Right here on this thread.

Beautiful, guys... :HeartThrob:

Inspiring and full of hope.

:icon_flower:

Yes!  For just a little taste of that, all we have to do is think of Saul/Paul.  That one's hard to get my mind around when I read and think about it.  Imagine how afraid the early believers were when they heard that old Saul was coming into their midsts and was now to be accepted as a brother.  BUT OLD SAUL NO LONGER EXISTED!  AND THAT WAS WITHOUT HIS GLORIFIED BODY AND IMMORTAL BEING!  If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creature.  Old things are passing away, and behold, all things are becoming new!

So they weren't brothers and fellow laborers in the kingdom with Saul.  They were with the new guy, Paul..."saved to the uttermost".  Same with Hitler.  That guy will no longer exist.