SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

My pleasure marie   :HeartThrob:

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.

The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.

The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.

The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.

God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.

Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.

To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."

[rodgertutt]

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK

The introduction reads "Mistranslation of the Greek word 'aion' is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. Because the understanding of the eons and God's purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on important issues like judgment, and man's destiny. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after spiritual truth will be aided in their quest."

Here is a snippet from the writing itself. "During this present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), sin reigns, Satan who is said to be 'the god of this eon' (2Cor. 4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1Cor. 15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
In due time, He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom. 8:18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup:

And:
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/ChartOfTheEonianTimes.htm
:dsunny:

[rodgertutt]

TESTIMONY – RODGER TUTT

I would like to tell you about both the negative and positive sides of my testimony in case it might be a help to other members, or surfers, or lurkers, of this forum who have, or are experiencing what I went through for similar reasons.

I'm 79 years old, and had I known that evidence existed that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love an endless-hell god.

THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.

If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.

I think that probably most of the agnosticism in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers (eternal tomentors) claim to love and worship.

Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.

This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.

When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it."

So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.

Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.

At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.

My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until on one occasion the welts on my legs bled. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.

Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behaviour. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.

So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.

Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 79 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

[rodgertutt]

THE POSITIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

Now I'm a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.

Before you brush off my assertion by saying "there is no such a thing," think about the following.

MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His many writings can be Googled up and read online.
Just type in Ray Prinzing.

During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family's dishes and before I went to sleep I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing's many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them once, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.

Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.

For several years my 104 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing's writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray's tapes.

As I listened to Ray's tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I'm 79 years old now)

My panic attacks completely stopped.

And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!

J. Preston Eby was a good friend of Ray Prinzing. They frequently quoted each other in their writings. Read what J. Preston Eby wrote about this subject. Copy and paste into Google
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER? or click on
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

The entire series of sixteen chapters by J. Preston Eby on this subject can be accessed at
Savior of the World Series
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

His writing specifically on universal transformation is at
The Restitution of All Things
http://www.godfire.net/eby/restitution.html 
SEE ESPECIALLY THE VERY LAST PARAGRAPH IN THAT ARTICLE

Like I said before, if I truly believed the Bible teaches eternal hell, I probably would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that. I would live my life trying to treat other people the way I would like to be treated by them and hope for the best after I die.

I think the doctrine of endless hell is probably the primary reason why many decent people choose agnosticism or atheism rather than Christianity. Like President Abraham Lincoln said to the eternal-hell evangelist, "Your god is my devil."

A TRIBUTE TO SEVERAL OF MY SPECIAL FRIENDS

Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor), and Ray's friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.

IMO people like Ray and Preston and George know the real Jesus.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html

Here's another testimony (by Charles Slagle) that was a huge help to me because the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown were the same as mine.
Copy and paste the links into your browser.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
or
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

The second link is his own personal website.
I am very happy to report that mostly due to the influence of the audio tapes and writings of Ray Prinzing, both of my parents changed their thinking later in life.

The theme of universal salvation is prominent in all of Ray's writings, but his book
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is especially good

[marie glen]

 :friendstu: Thank you Mr. Tutt!That is a powerful testimony of God's pure character which is really love! "God IS Love"! :cloud9:


That there are..

...no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone.

...a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever..

See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

I think the doctrine of endless hell is probably the primary reason why many decent people choose agnosticism or atheism rather than Christianity. Like President Abraham Lincoln said to the eternal-hell evangelist, "Your god is my devil."

I very much believe that to be true!

[rodgertutt]

THE BLACKEST OF ALL BACKGROUNDS

As some of you know, I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 79 now) over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever.

By listening to many audio tapes by Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor) over that period of time, I was able to gradually recover. All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several Google pages of links about him.

Millions of Muslims believe that non Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell.
Quote from
Islamic Beliefs about the Afterlife
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."

And, as most people already know, millions of Christians believe that non-Christians are going to suffer forever in hell.

The way that I emotionally cope with (i.e. stop myself from going crazy again) because of the existence of ETers (i.e. believers in eternal torment), is to perceive ETers as God's vessels of grossest dishonour -- a necessary foil of contrast in the guise of truth – a part of the blackest of backgrounds, upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His undefeatable grace and His love that never fails.

The marred vessels (i.e. ETers), never leave the Potter's hands, (they are marred in the Potter's hands), and neither will anyone leave the Potters hands. After our resurrection from the dead, all ETers will be refashioned, and transformed into vessels of honour, and it will be plain for all to see that it was better that ETers were vessels of dishonour for a long as they were (Jeremiah chapter 18).

One of the dishonourable characteristics of ETers is that they have no desire whatsoever to check out the reasons why URs (i.e. universal reconciliationists) believe that a literally translated, (not interpretively) translated Bible, actually teaches universal salvation.

But it may be that a silent member, or surfer, or lurker on this forum might be motivated enough to check us out and decide if the conclusions of URs have any merit.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

No doubt, many ETers will say that they have examined the evidence of the URs and have rejected it as being false. That, of course is to be expected of those for whom God has chosen to temporarily be a marred vessel. At least, that is the way I see it.

[marie glen]

Amen! ..the minds have been blinded.. truth chipped away at from every angle. I'm so thankful we have the Bible and that we understand how human translators of a culture steeped in old world superstition of afterlife torment, hoisted upon mankind via ancient king and priest collusion to control the people.. How it came to be translated into Christianity.. And is so obviously not a part of God's Word or character or attributes. You can't really take logic out of the Logos of God! And then all those U.R. verses make "perfect" sense!
:Peace2: :cloud9:

[rodgertutt]

THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL

In the conclusion of his book THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL Martin Luther wrote
there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!

http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

[rodgertutt]

THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely

As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.

As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based.  But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.

When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.

When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.

[rodgertutt]

THE ABSURDITY OF "FREE" WILL

AN EXCELLENT SHORT WRITING BY MARTIN ZENDER

"THE FLY IN THE JAR"

http://www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF2.1.pdf

[joeteekay]

THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely

As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.

As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based.  But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.

When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.

When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.

Further enlightenment on this topic is available om the "herald of God's Grace" web site. Here is an excerpt from one relevant article:

Now, what was "this question?" It was the same question as that at the opening of this article. The same one that causes the conflict between Paul and James. Is salvation by faith, or by faith and works combined? This church at Jerusalem knew nothing of a salvation without works. So saturated with the keeping of the law of Moses were they, that twenty years after Pentecost, they said to Paul, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are that believe, and they are all zealous of the law" (Acts 21:20). Now anyone should be able to see that the church at Jerusalem, these elders, Peter, James, and John were fighting bravely for a gospel of law-works and faith combined. Nothing else can explain their position here. Why try to warp the Scriptures out of all semblance of what they teach, and force upon them a meaning totally foreign to their intent?

Now while this was going on, Paul was contending just as manfully for his gospel of faith alone, without works, without any works as an aid to salvation or justification.

Just here lies the major difficulty, and it is fundamental. This is why it brought on such a commotion that the Holy Spirit Himself came and laid His hand upon the men most concerned in the matter at this conference, and gave unto each his special commission (Gal.2:7-9). What was it? That Paul should go and minister to the gentiles, while the elders, Peter, James, and John, should go and minister to the Jews. Notice, the Holy Spirit is careful to say that there are two gospels here, "the gospel of the Circumcision, and the gospel of the Uncircumcision." It is not the gospel to each, that is, to carry the same gospel to each, but there is a gospel of the Circumcision (which included faith and works), and there is a gospel of the Uncircumcision (salvation by faith alone). Now Paul was to carry this latter to the gentiles, while the elders were to proclaim the former to the Jews. And note this, never do we find a record where this was ever changed, canceled, or fused into one gospel.

http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Fallis/PaulVsJames.htm

:Peace2:

[rodgertutt]

Thanks joe  :iagree:

THE GRAND ASSERTION –  Don Hicks

ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.

Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"

SUB-ASSERTION #1

MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH

Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly.  But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath.  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?

Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and  reconciled  us to God through His death.

Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers.  Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.

At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing".  I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone.  Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."

SUB-ASSERTION #2

NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE

Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios".  "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever.  The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type.  The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief.  This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.

Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes.  Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power".  Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".

The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever.  The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc.  As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found.  This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".

Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also.  1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe."  The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista".  Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.

The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint.  An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be.  Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam.  Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever".  Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever?  What's more than forever?  That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity.  The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.

An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing.  Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant  audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment.  Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt.  Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning.  This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment.  Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to.  Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation.  There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.

SUB-ASSERTION #3

ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER

The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID,
ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.

NOTE:  Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to
belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we
have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will
only come to belief after their physical death.  At this point some might
think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned
spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional
stories to convey a spiritual message.  Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and
Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be
disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.

Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's.  God
grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical
death.  The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something
man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his
traditions, but God's word does not speak of it.

John 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day."

Phi 1:29  "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you
should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,"

THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.

"ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD

Rom 11:36  For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him
be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28  When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will
also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that
God may be all in all.

GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE

OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD

DAVID was inspired to write:

Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the
LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For
the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations

ISAIAH was inspired to write:

Isa 45:23  By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in
righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24  "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and
strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against
him.

PAUL was inspired to write:

Phi 2:10-11  "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Rom 14:11  For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will
bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."

JOHN was inspired to record:

Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on
the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
for the ages of the ages!"

SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:

NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and
confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment.
Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the
Father".  It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without
meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus
is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
(1 Cor. 12:3b)

EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD

[rodgertutt]

THE ABSURDITY OF "FREE" WILL

AN EXCELLENT SHORT WRITING BY MARTIN ZENDER

"THE FLY IN THE JAR"

http://www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF2.1.pdf

[marie glen]

Thanks joe  :iagree:

THE GRAND ASSERTION –  Don Hicks

ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.

Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"

SUB-ASSERTION #1

MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH

Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly.  But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath.  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?

Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and  reconciled  us to God through His death.

Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers.  Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.

At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing".  I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone.  Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."

SUB-ASSERTION #2

NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE

Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios".  "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever.  The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type.  The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief.  This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.

Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes.  Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power".  Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".

The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever.  The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc.  As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found.  This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".

Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also.  1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe."  The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista".  Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.

The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint.  An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be.  Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam.  Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever".  Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever?  What's more than forever?  That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity.  The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.

An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing.  Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant  audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment.  Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt.  Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning.  This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment.  Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to.  Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation.  There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.

SUB-ASSERTION #3

ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER

The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID,
ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.

NOTE:  Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to
belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we
have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will
only come to belief after their physical death.  At this point some might
think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned
spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional
stories to convey a spiritual message.  Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and
Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be
disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.

Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's.  God
grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical
death.  The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something
man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his
traditions, but God's word does not speak of it.

John 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day."

Phi 1:29  "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you
should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,"

THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.

"ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD

Rom 11:36  For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him
be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28  When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will
also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that
God may be all in all.

GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE

OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD

DAVID was inspired to write:

Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the
LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For
the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations

ISAIAH was inspired to write:

Isa 45:23  By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in
righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24  "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and
strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against
him.

PAUL was inspired to write:

Phi 2:10-11  "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Rom 14:11  For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will
bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."

JOHN was inspired to record:

Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on
the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
for the ages of the ages!"

SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:

NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and
confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment.
Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the
Father".  It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without
meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus
is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
(1 Cor. 12:3b)

EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD

:happyclap:  :thumbsup:  :cloud9: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

P.S.

THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely

As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.

As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based.  But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.

When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.

When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

[rodgertutt]

THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.

EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED

Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

[marie glen]

Amen! Since it was "made for the adversary and his angels/messengers" I believe they will be the ones cast there at end of judgment day(age?) and that they will come out the other end intact and repentant and reconciled..
   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[rodgertutt]

A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED

Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

[rodgertutt]

Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html

[rodgertutt]

C.S. Lewis wrote, "The greatest surprise for Satan will happen when he learns he has been doing the will of God all along."

I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html

A BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.

Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.

How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?

Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."

[rodgertutt]

THE MANY

Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?

This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."

We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.

That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.

Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.

[rodgertutt]

The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez. 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

[rodgertutt]

THE MILLENNIAL AGE
A snippet from THE MILLENNIAL AGE

We have seen that the Millennial age with all its glory is filled with judgment and with an iron rule; and that notwithstanding its unspeakable blessings and Israel's preeminence, it is far from a perfect state. It can not be the final age. The final age must come with the New Heavens and the New Earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

THE MILLENIAL AGE
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch7millenial_age.html

[marie glen]

I totally copy/pasted those last two posts! So I can easily reread the last one, and use the first one for reference. :thumbsup:

This whole thread would make an awesome book!