#1 - A SNIPPET FROM REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my hero and mentor)
All of his writings can be Googled up by typing in his name.
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 13, 2011, 05:54:54 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 13, 2011, 04:51:51 PM
#1 - A SNIPPET FROM REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my hero and mentor)
All of his writings can be Googled up by typing in his name.
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
Amen.
I too found Ray Prinzing to be my mentor. I miss him a great deal.
Ray helped many people as one can see when they read the several pages of Google links
Here is snippet #2
A SNIPPET FROM ALL IN ALL – A.E. KNOCH (one of the most prominent URs of the last century).
"The terms translated 'forever' and 'everlasting' and 'never' are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times.
Destruction, like salvation, is eonian. It is not the end or aim of God. God destroys nothing that He will not restore. He loses nothing that will not return to Him laden with praise and glory for Himself. Destruction is a passing process, not a finished goal. Through God it will work out the welfare of all of His creatures and the glory of our Savior.
(Editor's note: Scriptures that seem to disagree with this conclusion are addressed in his book)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
#3 – A SNIPPET FROM THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
"I, for one, freely confess that, without a knowledge of the consummation, when God will reconcile all and become All in all, I could not have confidence in a deity who allowed the world to work itself into such a mess, and who can do little more for most men than to sweep them into destruction, extinction or torment.
But now, how can I distrust God? Mankind is just where He has brought it. The effect of all the present evil and distress will be salutary. God will get glory out of it, and men will be prepared by it to appreciate the gifts He has in store for them all."
#4 – A SNIPPET FROM THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
"The corrective effects of kolasis aionios last forever. But as a means to an end, it will not last any longer than is necessary to produce the end for which it exists in the first place. When we finally weary of our own selfishness, petty jealousies, and lust for power; when we learn at last, perhaps through bitter experience, that these lead only to ruin and cannot bring enduring happiness, that nothing short of union with God and reconciliation with others will satisfy our own deepest yearnings; when we discover that the Hound of Heaven has finally closed off every alternative to such a union, we shall then, each of us, finally embrace the destiny that is ours."
#5 – A SNIPPET FROM A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
"We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called supreme goodness. In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.
We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God's creatures miserable; and this is called badness.
Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures? No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close."
#6 – A SNIPPET FROM SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
"By insisting on an interpreted translation of a Greek word, would you have the vast majority of men damned to an everlasting torture in order that you may feel quite sure that your timid soul will sit and sing itself away in everlasting bliss?
The main object of this book is to encourage those who faintly trust "the larger hope" to commit themselves to it wholly and fearlessly by showing them that they have ample warrant for it in scriptures of the New Testament."
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 15, 2011, 05:09:22 AM
#4 – A SNIPPET FROM THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
"The corrective effects of kolasis aionios last forever. But as a means to an end, it will not last any longer than is necessary to produce the end for which it exists in the first place. When we finally weary of our own selfishness, petty jealousies, and lust for power; when we learn at last, perhaps through bitter experience, that these lead only to ruin and cannot bring enduring happiness, that nothing short of union with God and reconciliation with others will satisfy our own deepest yearnings; when we discover that the Hound of Heaven has finally closed off every alternative to such a union, we shall then, each of us, finally embrace the destiny that is ours."
In my opinion this is one of the stronger kolasis aionios arguments. The effects of an action lasting forever and not the action itself.
#3 – A SNIPPET FROM THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
"I, for one, freely confess that, without a knowledge of the consummation, when God will reconcile all and become All in all, I could not have confidence in a deity who allowed the world to work itself into such a mess, and who can do little more for most men than to sweep them into destruction, extinction or torment.
But now, how can I distrust God? Mankind is just where He has brought it. The effect of all the present evil and distress will be salutary. God will get glory out of it, and men will be prepared by it to appreciate the gifts He has in store for them all."
:cloud9:
#7 – A SNIPPET FROM GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Sinners do not go away into everlasting punishment. They go into eonian correction. Thank God for the Concordant literal translation, which some in their blindness are condemning. When leaders in the church today condemn something I would be the first one to rush out and get it and examine it for myself. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth It has never been that way and it is not now.
The unscriptural tradition assigning a limit beyond which Christ has no power to save the obstinate sinner has spread universally. It is worldwide. It claims that the will of man can successfully oppose the power and will of God. "God wills all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4). Let us follow our Lord in His denunciation of tradition that makes void the word of God. Let us revel in the full extent of Christ's work and God's victory for all mankind."
#8 – A SNIPPET FROM THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
"God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some, evil is never to cease. God is never able, as they see it, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent, whereas the only freedom of man which the scriptures affirm is the freedom of deliverance we find alone in Christ Jesus."
#9 – A SNIPPET FROM A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
"The deliverance of the whole human family from sin and sorrow, its final holiness and happiness, has been the thought of multitudes, even when the prevailing doctrines around them were wholly hostile."
A book of quotes by more than 500 believers in universal salvation.
#10 – A SNIPPET FROM TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
"Does God not love His enemies, even as He has taught us to love ours? If He fails to reconcile even one, must it not be due to a lack of love, or of power? These qualities find their source in Him! So of a certainty He shall bring circumstances to bear which shall ultimately cause all to know, with understanding, His great love manifested in the gift of His Son, and this in turn shall fill each heart with adoration and love, and praise to God.
When God's plans for the ages of time (eonian times) have been accomplished, every experience of man will, under the guidance of His wisdom, work together with every other experience for man's highest ultimate good, as thus redound to God's honor and glory."
#11 – A SNIPPET FROM A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
"The adjective aionios, in the case of the wicked, is restricted to a limited period by its noun kolasis; of which the literal sense is clipping or pruning. It means the kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal. If endless were the sense of the adjective describing chastisement, it would represent God as acting under the influence of an endlessly vain expectation.
The belief of the Universalist includes a reconciliation of the tenets of Calvinism and Arminianism, by uniting the leading doctrines of both as far as they are found in the Scriptures; from which union they believe that the sentiment of Universal Restoration naturally flows."
#12 – A SNIPPET FROM THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
"It is a great giant, this one called eternal hell!!! It can only be killed by the stone of truth taken from the running waters of God's word. These waters have been running for a long time, but the stone to kill the giant is ready now.
God told Israel to set everything free in the year of Jubilee. God is going to have a Jubilee in totality over all sin, all death, and all destruction in this world. This world belongs to God and it shall be restored and shine with glory. God's tapestry is unrolling bit by bit, and when it is all unrolled, the great Jubilee of rest for the entire universe will be unveiled."
#13 – A SNIPPET FROM TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY - G.T. STEVENSON
"Many plain direct statements in the sacred scriptures declare that the purpose of God through our Lord Jesus Christ is to bless all humanity and to bring the whole universe into harmony with Himself. How can this be if myriads of mankind whom He so loves were to be kept alive forever in hopeless misery? And what kind of a god could love the sinner with Calvary love until he died, and then leave him in indescribable suffering eternally?"
#14 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
"The great enmity of mankind is but a background to magnify and display the far greater love of our God. Such love is as measureless as it is timeless; a vast portion being yet unrevealed. 'And having made peace through the blood of Christ's cross, by Him to reconcile all unto Himself, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.'
This plan of the ages is our Lord's ultimate purpose according to the declared will of Almighty God. This is the divine destiny of all in His creation. This is love that never fails."
#15 – A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Most Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperiled."
#16 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
#17 – A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
See this link.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html
#15 – A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Most Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperiled."
#16 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
Matt 24;48,49
but suppose that wicked servant says to himself,My Master is delaying...and begins to beat his fellow slaves and drink with the drunkards...
the Master of that servant will come on a day and an hour that he does not expect him,and will cut him to peices and assign him a place
with the hypocrites
Acts 20;29 I KNOW that after I leave savage wolves will come in and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort
the truth,in order to draw away disciples after them.
God and Christ have counted the cost of raising up the spiritual house of ALL in Adam
Luke 14;28....for if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it,everyone who sees it will ridicule him,saying,
'this fellow began to build and was not able to finish? 1 Peter 5;10 And the GOD OF ALL GRACE WHO CALLED YOU
TO HIS ETERNAL GLORY IN CHRIST,AFTER YOU HAVE SUFFERED A LITTLE WHILE,WILL HIMSELF RESTORE YOU AND
MAKE YOU STRONG,FIRM AND STEADFAST....TO HIM BE THE POWER,FOREVER AND EVER,AMEN!
#17 – A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." See this link.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html
#18 - A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
"The original terms translated everlasting, eternal, forever, are often employed in the Bible, as well as other writings under various limitations of import and are thus withdrawn from the predicament of meaning endless duration.
Since the terms do not necessarily signify an interminable duration, and since there is in the present instance to be pleaded for admitting a limited interpretation, a reason in the moral estimate of things of stupendous infinite urgency involving our perceptions of the divine goodness, and leaving those conceptions overwhelmed in darkness and horror if it be rejected, I therefore conclude that a limited interpretation is authorized."
#15 – A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Most Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperiled."
#16 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
#17 – A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." See this link.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html
#18 - A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
"The original terms translated everlasting, eternal, forever, are often employed in the Bible, as well as other writings under various limitations of import and are thus withdrawn from the predicament of meaning endless duration.
Since the terms do not necessarily signify an interminable duration, and since there is in the present instance to be pleaded for admitting a limited interpretation, a reason in the moral estimate of things of stupendous infinite urgency involving our perceptions of the divine goodness, and leaving those conceptions overwhelmed in darkness and horror if it be rejected, I therefore conclude that a limited interpretation is authorized."
Excellent collection Rodger Tutt!
Thomas Talbott's quote was especially enlightening. I don't think that I'd really thought about the idea that 'eternal punishment' (although this isn't necessarily a very good translation anyway) could just mean punishment with eternal effects, rather than 'eternal punishing'. This makes even more sense with the root of 'kolasis' being 'pruning'; the effects of the pruning are eternal, not the process of pruning. Hence, even making 'aionios' everlasting, when attaching it to kolasis, can still point to UR, with correction with results that last eternally. This gives us leeway even if a person insists on a meaning of 'eternal'.
Also there are good reasons why it should, regardless, not be considered as eternal (i.e. not using aidios), which even further emphasises the temporary nature of such a correction.
Thanks again!
#19 - IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated."
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 03, 2011, 12:25:28 PM
#19 - IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated."
:thumbsup:
#20 - THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "
#21 - THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
"Some say that if it can be proved that the punishment of the wicked will have an end, the same argument will prove that the life of the righteous will also end. But this is too much to take for granted on such a premise. Aionios does not of itself indicate either the limited or unlimited duration of anything, but its duration in each case depends on the nature of that to which it is applied.
Colored glasses give color to whatever men look at, and it is difficult for many to divest themselves of the influence of former teaching so far as to be willing to look at a thing from the standpoint of another.
Some of us have done this however. Though trained in the old school of thought, we have been enabled, by a careful examination of the Scriptures, to throw off the old idea and to accept the larger and better hope. And we are assured that the plan of the ages with its progressive revelation, and the general scope and spirit of the gospel as a revelation of the infinite love and wisdom of God, are far stronger evidence of the final victory of Christ in saving all men, than the mere definition of any word could be."
#22 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 06, 2011, 11:59:19 AM
#22 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Thanks! :thumbsup:
#23 - DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
(These 254 pages are essentially an explanation of why he makes the following statement)
"The whole of scripture is full of the proclamation of a salvation that binds all men by a Redeemer Who gathers together and reconciles the whole universe. That is quite sufficient to enable us to hope for the salvation of all men without thereby coming into contradiction with the Word of God."
#24 - GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
"We do not wish to belittle the awful judgments of God. They will be terrible enough. But we desire to get all the perspective of Scripture and look to the end God has in view.
We do not believe that orthodox theology has done this. It has stopped short in the ages themselves and has misnamed them eternity, and has therefore presented the vision of a heaven full of saints and a hell full of tortured sinners in endless existence. In such a survey of the ultimate there is no place for the vision that Paul gives when God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
We contend that nothing less than the reconciliation of all would satisfy the heart of God and be a fitting consummation to the shedding of the blood of His Son."
#25 - A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.
The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (unquote)
This is his comment regarding Matthew 25:46.
#26 - THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
"The crowning glory of the 'good news' or evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to bring to the 'gentiles' or nations, is the revelation that He will reconcile all to God.
What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a wonderful Christ Who can accomplish such a complete and glorious reconciliation! All creatures, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, reconciled in perfect peace to the great love of God through the Son of His love.
More of these untraceable honors and glories of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to reveal, could be pointed out with delight, but these will suffice to increase our faith, enrich our joy and brighten our expectation 'in Him in Whom our lot was cast also,' Christ Jesus our Lord, Life, and Head!"
#27 - CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
'This is life eternal' should be 'the life of the ages,' i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The 'eternal covenant' is the 'covenant of the ages,' the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The 'eternal purpose' is really the purpose of 'the ages,' i.e. developed and worked out in 'the ages.'
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ's work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages 'cometh the end' when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
#28 - THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
From the time of the apostles to the era of the reformation 1498.
"I have been careful to state, in his own words, the opinion of every Christian author extant concerning future punishment and the eventual salvation of the world. This history contains an account of every individual of note whom we have now the means of knowing to have been a universalist."
#29 - THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
Contains the writings of several hundreds of Christian Universalists from 1498 to 1830.
A snippet from Thomas Whittemore reads, "I cannot permit this opportunity to pass without expressing my heart felt acknowledgements to that Being Who has preserved my health and enabled me to finish this work in the midst of other pressing and incessant duties. May my confidence in Him never be diminished."
#30 - RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
"It is argued that whatever be the meaning of the word aionios in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving. But the truth is that this word describes not the quantity or duration, but the quality of that which it is predicated.
The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means 'pruning' and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing."
#31 - YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
"Lord, did you really say in Your word what I used to believe You said? Is it actually ok with You that people will spend eternity in hell? No, no, a thousand times no! You do not say that - and I am so relieved. Because had You said that, it would follow that I would have to think of You as worse than a murderer, that is, as a tormentor. If a person is murdered at least the possibility of torture and torment is past. But if I were to believe that You have prepared an eternal hell for some, I would also have to believe that You can be happy while you are tormenting people eternally."
#32 - THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
"I am assured that goodness is the foundation, and happiness is the end of all the ways of God, to myself and every creature. Hope is the anchor of my soul, sure and steadfast; for though 'His ways should be in the deep and His paths in the mighty waters;' though I should experience every external evil; no affliction shall shake my confidence. Never will I dishonor by a moment's distrust, a Being Who has in mercy commanded me to 'cast all my care upon Him;' because 'He careth for me.'
I have in the whole of this treatise, in establishing the doctrine of perfect goodness, and following it in its consequences; constantly combated such erroneous opinions as represent the Creator of the human race as a Being Whose power will be employed in inflicting never ending torments on a portion of His creatures, and I have established the non-eternity of future torments."
#33 - HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (recently published)
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 17, 2011, 10:41:23 AM
#33 - HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (recently published)
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
These are excellent snippets, Rodger! You must be very knowledgeable on the UR topic!
The above quote is helped by the idea of the molinist perspective of God knowing counterfactual truths about creaturely freedom (i.e. God knows what a given free creature would choose if placed in a given situation, and hence He can orchestrate the situations in which they will peform a certain action without reducing their freedom). In this way, God knows exactly what circumstances are required for each individual to make that free choice!
#34 - AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all.
The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
#35 -THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
"It may be questioned whether we understand the terms 'forever,' 'forever and ever,' and 'everlasting,' aright, for these terms are used in divers places as things that have an end and are understood in a limited and qualified sense. These terms are too weak a foundation to build an assertion of everlasting hell upon, as concludes and shuts up God forever in wrath, never to come forth in the exercise of mercy. Whether or not there is an ending is not revealed by the use of these terms.
O my God, Thou art love and canst no more cease to be so than to be Thyself. Take Thy own methods with us, and submit us to them. Well may we do so in an assurance that the beginning, the way, and the end of them all is love. I must believe then that Thy grace will super-abound wherever sin hath most abounded."
#36 - THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
"In 1Timothy 2: 5&6 we read, 'For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras).' This scripture defines the purpose of God through the name Jesus. Thus God exalts His Son, so at the name of Jesus, the name which means that He is salvation, 'every knee shall be bowing and every tongue shall be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.' Philippians 2:9-11.
The name of Jesus must not be held in contempt. It must be exalted. How could those who bow the knee and acknowledge Him as Lord ever thus dishonor the name of Jesus, which they would be doing if they were lost? It was Jesus who died to save them as He gave His life a correspondent ransom for all. God will exalt that precious name as He transports us all into the kingdom of the Son of His love."
#37 - UNION – JAMES RELLY
In his book UNION, Relly presents scriptural texts for the view that universal salvation is assured. He argues that Jesus Christ's union with all human beings, and His assumption of their guilt for their sins ensures that the entire human race will be saved.
He further argues that faith is the result, not the cause, of experiencing the saving power of God.
He wrote, "Man, being the vessel marred between the Potter's hands is not rejected, but made into another and better vessel (Jeremiah 18:2).
#38 - THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 35:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."
#39 - THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
#40 - GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
"From the beginning God was and always will be a God of all grace. He purposes to be All in all of His creation; but every man in his own foreordained and previously marked out order. No doctrine is of God that does not include, 'Having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His own benevolent design, which He previously purposed in Himself: that in the fullness of the ages He will gather together in one all in Christ, both those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth, even in Him.'
It is wrong to teach that this age of grace will soon end. In our redeemed bodies we will be righteous, and in the ages to come we will be teaching the grace of God to others."
#41 - HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of aion.
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the Greek noun aion must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal begins."
#42 - THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love."
#43 - THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC – LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD
The following is my all-time favorite quote. I've had it memorized for many years and I quote it frequently. As a staunch universalist, Leslie Weatherhead meant it to include everyone without exception, after everyone who needs it experiences kolasis aionion, or age-during corrective punishment.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
Thanks for these. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Aleax on August 27, 2011, 10:35:34 AM
Thanks for these. :bigGrin:
MY PLEASURE!!! :bigGrin:
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 27, 2011, 08:51:40 AM
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
Wow! That's an excellent way of thinking about it, and I would say that this quote is even in itself an exaggeration, since the troubles of this world will seem infinitesimally small in the context of eternity, that they will eventually be barely recognisable - much less even than a broken toy! :)
Thanks also for making the effort to put these snippets on this (and the evangelical universalist) site! :)
#44 - TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
"Modern theology has so long circumvented our thinking and teaching to the biased idea that God will save only part of His creation and so limited His redemptive powers that we have forgotten that with God all things are possible and shall be wrought out in due time. God has a definite schedule for saving His creatures, and there is nothing that can withstand His purpose.
Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. It is all a part of God's purpose of the ages and redemption's glory will only shine out the more after the plan's execution. God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control."
#45 - THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
" 'And we have seen and to testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
#46 - THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
#47 - DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
#48 - THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
"Today every warden in the U.S. endorses the ideal of rehabilitation. Shall we say then that God is less reasonable than His creatures? No! God's punishments exist not for vindictive suffering, but rather for remedy! Praise His Holy Name!
God works with a glorious end in view. We have viewed the judgments of God against sin and unrighteousness as the end, when in reality they are only a means to an end. The revelation of scriptural truth does not view God's judgments in the ages to come as vindictive, as if to say that God is vengeful, implacable, and hateful against men (as all too often those who profess His Name appear to be!), This insight into God's purposes in judgment rather declares that these judgments are remedial, that they exist to effect a positive divine end for everyone.
Christ died "to reconcile all unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross" Colossians 1:20. The all saving Cross of Christ will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinner have no more a name among the creatures of God."
#49 - THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
"God says He will reconcile all; the whole creation shall ultimately be delivered, and every created thing shall finally praise God (Revelation 5:13).
The point that I wish the reader especially to note is that the final accomplishment of this purpose of God depends on Himself, and not on man. The creature may fail, the Creator never fails; and no amount of blunders, mistakes, failures or perversions of the creature shall disarrange or thwart the plans of the Creator. This is the true basis of redemption."
#50 - THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"To know the true and living God 'out of Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:6, is to recognize that His purpose for His creatures can only be loving, wise, righteous, and good.
To know Jesus Christ, 'through Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:8, is to know that God's purpose cannot fail Shall we who know Him and have had ours eyes opened to the glorious triumph of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ sit idly by and let reproach be heaped upon His Name without protesting?
Think how the teaching of endless punishment slanders God and Jesus Christ! We know Christ died for all (1Tim. 2:6). Does God lack the goodness, the power, the love, the grace to save all? God declares that judgment is eonian; man says it is everlasting. Let us believe God and not man."
Joseph Kirk
#51 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"Regarding the argument that if the punishment of the unbelievers has an end, then the life of the believers has an end also at the end of the ages.
But life cannot end at that time because death is abolished (1Cor. 15:26). The life of the eons ends when all are vivified at the end or consummation of the eons (1Cor. 15:24).
Life itself, however, continues on interminably."
"Regarding the argument that in 2Cor. 4:18 eonian must mean eternal because it is set in contrast with the word temporal meaning enduring for time as opposed to eternity.
But the Greek word translated temporal has no connection with the word for time; it is literally 'toward season,' and means temporary or for the era. In this passage eonian is used in contrast between our afflictions which last for a brief season, and our promised long enduring eonian glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation when God become All in all."
William C. Rebman
#52 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"What was done cannot be undone. The work of God and the obedience of Christ on Golgotha is not something conditional on whether or not we believe it or respond to it or prepare ourselves for it. It has already happened, and its effects are unstoppable. The consequence of the obedience of Christ is that every descendant of Adam will be constituted righteous. When Christ died, God was there in Him conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offences to them (2Cor. 5:19). Peace is not made by us; it is made by God in the death of His Son. And now God is entreating through us that this peace might be recognized and enjoyed (2Cor. 5:20)."
Dean Hough
#53 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"The use of 'forever and ever' instead of the accurate rendering 'for the eons of the eons,' is a gross mistranslation. Most translators simply lacked the insight to see the point of many of the passages that speak of the eons. Since they were able, however, to make sense of these passages by translating by 'everlasting' or 'eternal,' they simply went ahead and did so, any resultant problems notwithstanding. Due to a lack of sensible thinking it was impossible for them to face the fact that the usual translations of this word are quite mistaken and extremely harmful!"
James Coram
#54 - ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
By way of introduction Knoch wrote
"In this little handbook we tear away the false traditions of Christendom first. Then we remove the dark cover which philosophical mistranslations have laid over God's Book. With these gone all that is necessary is to read God's message to us more carefully, and its overwhelmingly glorious solution of this vexed problem illuminates our minds and flood our hearts with exultant joy and praise and adoration to the God of all grace and glory."
Then, by way of conclusion at the end of His book Knoch wrote
"We have considered the traditions of Christendom which darken this subject and found them unscriptural. My love to God and my admiration have increased unutterably since I have seen that He is not the defeated fiend of Christendom, but is fully able to cope with evil and sin, and bind them all to the chariot wheels of love. All His attributes, including holiness, and righteousness, serve in the livery of love. Adored be His Name!"
#55 - CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
"Before the last age is over, every knee in heaven and in earth and under the earth will have bowed to Christ, and every tongue will have confessed to God that He is Lord to the glory of God (Phil. 2:10). 'In the name of Jesus' (literal translation) signifies much more than is implied by the simple use of the Name in speech. According to the idiom it signifies 'in the very nature of Jesus,' and as no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3), we know that there will be no hypocritical confession, nor will there be any confession by compulsion, but a true confession of Christ by every creature in the universe, and that to the glory of God the Father."
Amen! :happyclap:
GLORY :happyclap: :happyclap: :clapping: :Yesss: Amen! :bigGrin:
Thank you Mr.Tutt for posting all these wonderful snippets! :bigGrin:
Quote from: Eduard on September 08, 2011, 12:03:34 AM
Thank you Mr.Tutt for posting all these wonderful snippets! :bigGrin:
Don't go away.
Lots more to come. :bigGrin:
#56 - EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for the eons of the eons."
#57 - THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
"All creation remains within the care and keeping of its Creator. The vessels which become marred never leave the hand of the Potter; they are marred while still in His hand. The lesson that was taught Jeremiah (Jer. 18:4), though to be interpreted as relating to Israel, nevertheless embodies a principle which is sustained throughout the whole outworking of God's purpose. He holds all in the hollow of His hand, and though He may allow, and even cause, some of His creatures to temporarily turn away from Him, He never lets them go. That is why Paul can write in Romans 8:20, 'For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself , also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
#58 - THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
"To those who would challenge the truth of the reconciliation of all, I would reply, 'It is God's choice, and praise be to Him that He has chosen it to be so. Let no one deny God the right to choose as He wills.' "
"When God's conciliatory hand of friendship has been grasped by all in complete reconciliation, and when the wisdom of His choosings and His appointments, that is His sovereignty has been universally accepted beyond question – in short, when God is All in all, then every one of His creatures will rejoice in being one of HIS achievements, and all in the heavens and on earth will be both prepared and glad to acknowledge that of themselves they have contributed nothing, but that ALL HAS BEEN OF HIM."
#59 - THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)
"A time is coming when Christ, the Beloved Himself, stands before His Father Who is Love, with the entire universe in train. What a thrilling reception, what a glorious presentation that will be! The great end for which the God of expectation waited, in perfect assurance, and for which Christ gave Himself. How fully will such a conclusion accord with the delight of His will!
There was a time when such greatness of salvation was more widely believed. But the imposed beliefs of the dark ages spoiled all this. Christendom was held as with iron bands in the grip of priest-ridden assent. And although their teaching is kept in the background, it is still there, giving that fatal bias which so clouds the perception of grace. Thus, we find resort to the limiting of Scripture by Scripture, to the seeing of finality when God's purpose is in continuance, and the ignoring of those passages which so blessedly bring out the fullness and triumph of saving grace. But how happy should they be who, brought to a present belief, enjoy to the full the prospect of future salvation for all, even the reconciliation of the universe.
Stage upon stage, the Victor of Golgotha will move on His momentous and victorious way. Then will He show that 'the Father has delivered all into His hands' John 13:3. And in those capable hands, the world, even though it be by tumult, will be led to peace. What a perfect expression God's grace finds in such a scene! What a realization of the truth attendant on so great a salvation! How rapturous a vision, too, of the One Who carried it to such a conclusion, Who sought until He found, Who loved until He won!"
#60 - GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God 'is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the 'all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
'To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' "
#61 - TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
"Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God's affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God's love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God's limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.
Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!"
#62 - A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
"We scan the dark ages of man and note how in the most pitiful ignorance, men, women, and children have died without the light of love – bitter, belabored and bereft of hope. All this and worse if the theories of men who limit the Gospel of Christ are right!
But why limit God? Why limit His power? Why indeed limit His plan and purposes for the ages of time? Why take part of His plan and label it as the whole? Why limit the great God of love at all, He Who is infinite love? Why indeed limit the compassion and overflowing love of Jesus 'who gave Himself a ransom for all'? (1Tim. 2:5,6). Are not the arms of Jesus long enough or strong enough to reach out and snatch the sinner from the jaws of suffering and death, if not in this dispensation, then in the ages to come? God 'will have all men to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth' (Rom. 5:18). Never let it be said that any one of us limited God in any way."
#63 - THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
"Words are inadequate to describe the harm which has resulted from confounding the ages with eternity.
The Greek and Hebrew terms rendered 'forever and ever,' 'eternal,' 'everlasting' never refer to endlessness; but to a series of terminable periods know as age-times. These ages are periods in which God carries on remedial work, but they have a conclusion and pass away when the purpose to be accomplished in them has been realized. The ages are never synonymous with endlessness but always distinct therefrom.
That the words translated 'forever and ever' are associated with the hereafter of both believer and unbeliever is true; but in the case of both it is limited to the span of the ages, and has not the remotest reference to the final state of either. Therefore the dogmas of endless agony and endless sin rest on purely imaginary premises and are without the slightest shred of biblical support."
#64 - "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
This writing is a detailed explanation of why the author makes the following statement.
"The barbarous and heathen dogma of endless torment is refuted by the very passages on which orthodoxy depends for its support."
#65 - "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
" 'This is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth' (1Tim. 2:3). This passage shows us what is the driving force behind salvation, the will of God. It is God Who is the Saviour, not us, and it is His will that is the decisive factor that results in the saving of all.
Many believers will have some to be saved, some to be reconciled; God will have all to be saved, all to be reconciled. He will be All in all, not all in some. Many insist on the word 'some' because it makes human endeavor a part of salvation; they will not recognize that human endeavor is, of itself, vanity, and that all is of God. He, the One, does everything for the all, that in each He may display His grace. Let us not claim for ourselves the glory of our salvation, but give it wholly to Him."
#66 - ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)
In summing up his book he wrote
"Christ has truly made peace 'through the blood of His cross.' But the clear potency of it is yet to be seen when the ministry of reconciliation has accomplished its beneficial purpose. Then, the salvation of all is at last a wondrous reality. The tendency we see in God's great stream of the eons has widened and enlarged until all are richly blessed by its satisfying power. Its noble volume, now freed of all obstacles, attains a majestic flow. And so, by seemingly strange and inexplicable ways, the God of all grace accomplishes His purpose. For 'Grace not in rills, but cataracts rolls.' How glorious the stream, and how salutary its miraculous power! Sin has affected all, all but One glorious, sinless Being, and He in marvelous grace triumphs completely over it.
There will not be a single creature, then, above or below, who is not 'lost in wonder, love and praise.' A scene truly to inspire, and continuously impel to grateful thanks. Transcendent grace indeed, in fullest flow."
#67 - "ETERNAL LIFE" – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Hebrew and Greek scholars know that there is no word in the Bible corresponding to our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means unending. Most theologians know this too, but they don't teach it. Only one who is willing to stand for TRUTH for truth's sake and is willing to be branded a fanatic would dare to challenge the translation 'eternal life.'
'Eternal life,' so called, pertains to relationship and quality. What men are urged to 'lay hold of' is 'eonian life' or 'real life' or 'true life.' It is not duration but quality. How tragic that truths like this are covered up by faulty translations!"
The only definition of 'eternal life' so-called, in the entire Bible is clearly stated in John 17:3, 'And this is life eternal (eonian), that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' That describes relationship, not duration; it signifies quality, not quantity."
#68 - TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
"After long years of torturing doubts, God had mercy on me and turned my darkness into light, my despair into joy and my misery into exultation. He brought me into touch with His revelation, just as He had written it, apart from most of the mistranslations of well-meaning men, who were bound by creeds and tradition.
I found out that sin and suffering are confined to the eons or ages, as 'forever' and 'everlasting' should be translated. There will indeed be an awful judgment, but it will not merely punish, but set right all wrongs.
Not only will God bring all of earth's inhabitants back into the sunlight of His love, but, through the blood of Christ's cross, He will reconcile all to Him, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). The present enmity toward God on the part of terrestrial and celestial creatures will, in due time, be used as a background to display His love. That is why I no longer have torturing doubts, but revel in exultant faith."
#69 - THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
"We read in 1Tim. 1:11 that Paul was entrusted with the evangel of the glory of the happy God. We read in 1Tim. 2:4 that God wills that all mankind be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and that Christ Jesus gave Himself a correspondent ransom for all (2:6).
Our God is a happy God. In Ephesians 1:10,11 we learn of the secret of God's will, and this accords with His delight. It gives God joy and happiness and delight to purpose and bring about 'an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ.'
Such an evangel is certainly for the laud of His glory."
#70 - THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
"Coming to the close of the last age, we find the earth filled with God's righteousness. All know Him from the least to the greatest. The earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Through His own blood, Christ has reconciled all back to God. We see every tongue confessing in love and adoration Christ as Lord. This can only be done in obedience and love as it is a unanimous Praise of the Universe to the glory of God the Father (Colossians 1:20).
It is little wonder that all gladly proclaim redemption's story. God now rises in everyone, bringing the consummation of God's plan of the ages – a complete circle, from God in Himself to GOD ALL IN ALL."
An active on going result of a previous action.
Now is the judgment of this world:
"Now, shall the prince of this world (the principalities of men) be cast out!"
:thumbsup: peacemaker
#71 - GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
"Many attempts have been made to prove that eons are eternal. The Greek word aion and the Hebrew olam, both meaning age or eon, have been translated by terms meaning endlessness. This is a grave error, for the divine Author, Himself has not used them in this way. He has indicated that they were not eternal in the past by informing us that they had a beginning (1Cor. 2:7), and, again, that they cannot possibly be everlasting in the future, for they are to end (Heb. 9:26; 1Cor. 10:11).
God's plan for creation is confined to time. It is not an 'eternal' purpose' but a 'purpose of the eons' (Eph. 3:11). Beyond the ages there will be naught but bliss and perfection for every member of creation (Rom. 8:19-22). Sin and evil and death will then be past; all will be saved and reconciled, and God shall be All, not in a few, but in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
#72 - A snippet from GOD'S METHODS WITH MAN – G. Campbell Morgan (pages 185-186)
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. Men have divided the church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a though conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible."
G. Campbell Morgan
In response to that statement, the SCRIPTURE STUDIES CONCERN editor (unnamed) wrote in 1956
"We cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One Who is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages. God's punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour."
#73 - NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
"In Romans 5:18,19 we have on the one side as the cause one lapse and the effects extending to all mankind for condemnation. We have on the other side one just sentence of acquittal, and the effect extending to all mankind for a justifying that carries with it LIFE.
Since 'the many' were involved in sin and death through the agency of one man, Adam, 'much more' may we believe that 'the many' will be involved in righteousness and life through the agency of the One Man, Christ Jesus."
EDITOR'S NOTE:
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
#74 - AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
"By examining the texts of the Greek manuscripts we find the word AIONIOS or AGE LASTING in place of the word eternal of the King James version. AIONIOS the adjective modifies its noun AION or AGE and means lasting during the AGE, or AGE-LASTING.
For that meticulous student of the Word of God that was penned by the inspired writers, I am including this concordance of the Greek noun AION and its adjective AIONIOS for your reference in your studies of the mistranslations of the King James version versus the text of the Greek manuscripts."
#75 - THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
"Many do no understand the extent and purpose of God, that He is the propitiation for our sins, AND NOT OURS ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the whole world (1John 4:10).
God is calling us to come up higher into Him and begin to see from His eyes, from His position.
God never loses! HE WINS ALL! He said, 'Pick up the fragments, let NOTHING be lost.
This is seen from His side of the picture. We do not have a tired and frustrated God unable or unwilling to save His own creation. He will vindicate His own character and nature of love and power. Praise His Name!"
#76 - DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
"All of God's judgments are corrective measures that counteract, and also cooperate for the eventual good and reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world.
God never judges in vengeance for vengeance sake, but only for ultimate rehabilitation. He has His perfect timing to bring forth ultimate good for all. Thus many divine judgments are postponed until iniquity comes to the full (Gen. 15:16).
All must experience human failure and total depravity to the full in order to appreciate salvation when God eventually sets all things right throughout the whole universe (Isa. 9:26; and Phil. 2:10,11).
#77 - GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
"The whole universe will feel the impact and glory of the cross as it takes away the sin of the world. This expression of God's influence, power, and love will continue to shine out of His own heart until all come under His sway ; saved, purified, changed, and drawn back into Himself.
None can escape the loving and corrective judgment of the Father. Nothing shall be lost or wasted. The true light is shining more and more unto that perfect day when all shall be understood – God reaching His own ultimate plan, the great cycle of love completed; God All in all, everything in everybody. This is true love in the full expression of the cross."
Dora Van Assen's testimony is one of my favorites! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on September 29, 2011, 09:13:48 AM
Dora Van Assen's testimony is one of my favorites! :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
#78 - THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
"Babylonish religion would have us believe that everything will end when this age concludes; however, God is not the least bit influenced by man's religion since He already determined that His redemptive plan involves the ages beyond this present age. In the age of the fullness of times, all things in the heavens and on earth that have not yet been gathered into Christ, will then be gathered into Him (Eph. 1:8-10).
The will of God has been positively affirmed in this matter, for Paul wrote of God, 'Who will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth,' (1Tim 2:4). The Lord is omnipotent and shall perform all that He has purposed concerning all mankind, 'Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE' (Is. 46:10).
#79 - "FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"Because of their past teaching in the tradition of man, many will argue that man's own will shall prevent the fulfilling of God's own stated will. But according to God's word of truth wherein He cannot lie, He shall mercifully prove them to be wrong. Fortunately for mankind, God works ALL things, including man's destiny, after the counsel of His own will, and always, what His soul desires, even that He does (Job 23:13).
Believe it or not, God's intimate sovereign control is absolute and universal in scope (Job 3:7), even to the extent of man's delusions (2Thes. 1:11; Is. 66:4; Jer. 6:19). This is notably evident in the church's delusion – that God cannot successful influence the human will unless we let Him. But God has absolute control over the extent of success to which His word reaches and changes others, even to the extent of controlling what that word means to each individual (Is. 29:14; Matt. 13:11; 19:11).
It is a prophetic fact, predetermined, willed, divinely promised, and assured by the word of our faithful God Who in fact 'WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED' (1Tim. 2:4), This is true not only because 'HE IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN' (1Tim. 4:10), and not just of the first fruits whom He now specially causes to believe, but also because of the truth that 'HE IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH or be rendered unfit for the ultimate pleasure of His will (Rev. 4:11; Eph. 1:5,9; Col. 1:19,20), for 'IT IS NOT OF HIM WHO IS WILLING, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, BUT OF GOD (Rom. 9:16).
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 09, 2011, 01:38:02 AM
#80 - "MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"Some believe that God's satisfaction will be found in the eternal torment of some of His creatures. But John was not speaking of a perverted pleasure when he penned, 'Thou hast created all things and for Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). God's plan and purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) is to include perfectly executed and unique stages of progressive development resulting in the final restoration and reconciliation of all.
God has been and always will be in absolute sovereign control over His entire cosmic plan, even unto its ultimate consummation in perfection. His plan for all of humanity cannot fail. All of His working together of good and evil is in perfect harmony and balance. God's love shall not fail. His absolute power and might insures His completing of all He has willed to do, both in our individual salvation, and in the universal salvation that is sure to come."
Beautiful!
#81 - "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
#82 - THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
"The throne is white. May the One Who will be seated upon it keep us from painting it black. The judgment is viewed in the light of its outcome. If it leads to eternal conscious torment for all who stand before it as orthodoxy demands, then the throne is black and an outrage on justice and a heartless exhibition of fiendish cruelty.
It is only when we see that the outcome of this judgment is universal reconciliation (Col. 1:20), that we can really acknowledge that the throne is white. It is only when we limit the actual infliction of pain and penalties to the judgment era that we are able to appreciate the righteousness of God's throne.
The judgment is as varied as the individual. It is as different as their acts. Some will suffer severely, some slightly, and all according to their deserts. But there is no reason to prolong this time to infinity. It is preparatory to their reconciliation."
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 09, 2011, 08:10:40 PM
#81 - "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
AWESOME!
#82 - THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
"The throne is white. May the One Who will be seated upon it keep us from painting it black. The judgment is viewed in the light of its outcome. If it leads to eternal conscious torment for all who stand before it as orthodoxy demands, then the throne is black and an outrage on justice and a heartless exhibition of fiendish cruelty.
It is only when we see that the outcome of this judgment is universal reconciliation (Col. 1:20), that we can really acknowledge that the throne is white. It is only when we limit the actual infliction of pain and penalties to the judgment era that we are able to appreciate the righteousness of God's throne.
The judgment is as varied as the individual. It is as different as their acts. Some will suffer severely, some slightly, and all according to their deserts. But there is no reason to prolong this time to infinity. It is preparatory to their reconciliation."
#83 - PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
"Salvation through Christ will extend outward to include all people (Rom 5:18; 1Tim. 2:4-6). Indeed it is far more than that. Salvation in Christ reaches out to embrace all intelligent beings in the entirety of the universe (Eph. 1:10; Phil. 2:10,11; Col. 1:15-20). The power of God to save is all encompassing. And when God sets out to accomplish a task (such as saving the world and the universe), He will be successful – God will always be successful!
No power in the universe, including Satan himself, can thwart God's plan to save all those within His creation. And this is precisely where Progressive Revelation leads – it leads to the truth that God will finally save all!"
#84 - THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
Even if one person were to suffer endlessly because of Adam's sin, the justice of God would be defeated. So the grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."
#85 - THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
"The freedom we now enjoy in spirit will ultimately be enjoyed by the whole creation when it is reconciled to God, and this includes the whole of humanity, for God wills all mankind to be saved and to come into a realization of the truth (1Tim.2:4). When His purpose is accomplished, there will be no vessels of indignation left.
When the reconciliation of all is complete the joy of the universe will be full. When the purpose of the All-sufficient God has reached its consummation, and He is All in all, every heart will be filled with the true laughter which accompanies the praise and adoration of Him Who is Supreme and Whose name is Love."
Beautiful
#86 – A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
"It is hard for man to accept how completely he is in the hands of God. Churchianity pictures God as sitting off to one side, waiting and pleading for His creatures to come to Him. Instead of that He is the active force; He is the mover of all things. We simply live and move and have our being in Him (Acts 17:28). If He does not move us we are not moved; if He does not enlighten us we are not enlightened.
The course that God has taken to accomplish His purpose for man is preeminently the right one for God is Almighty, so there is no question of His power to do whatever He wills, and He wills all men to be saved (1Tim. 2:3&4)."
Acts 17:28.
HE BUILDS THE CHAPEL!
And all God's people said,"AMEN."
#87 - RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 15, 2011, 01:14:13 PM
(every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse)
They delight in the lie more than the truth; self-righteous Babylon!
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
— 2 Thessalonians 2:11
#88 - THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
The introduction reads "Mistranslation of the Greek word 'aion' is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. Because the understanding of the eons and God's purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on important issues like judgment, and man's destiny. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after spiritual truth will be aided in their quest."
Here is a snippet from the writing itself. "During this present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), sin reigns, Satan who is said to be 'the god of this eon' (2Cor. 4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1Cor. 15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
In due time, He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom. 8:18-23)."
For God is not for turbulence, but peace.
#89 - OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – DR. JACK JACOBSON
"If the concept of universal restoration seems to be a modern idea, it's only because the understanding of this glorious plan of God is new to our modern minds. Universal restoration, in fact, is a truth one taught to and received by most of the saints of antiquity. The modern church has become blinded to the fact of universal restoration as given in the scriptures, but this is not a blindness that was shared by the early church."
This introduction is followed by quotes by many UR church leaders during the first six centuries of the Christian church.
#90 - WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX
"That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We've portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it's up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.
We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation 'is not of him that willeth' (any decision we make of ourselves), 'nor of him that runneth' (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 18, 2011, 10:55:42 AM
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
John 19:30;
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,
It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2011, 09:21:59 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 18, 2011, 10:55:42 AM
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
John 19:30;
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
It makes me cry from thankfulness, what you endured for us, Lord Jesus.
"like Father, like Son."
The really amazing part is that when we see Him — we shall be like Him!
#91 - BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
"I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE WORLD BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD" Jn. 12:47
"When I first began to believe in the reconciliation of the world, I fell on my knees and put my head on the floor and cried tears of joy. The revelation came to me in a flash, like lightning and immediately I received it as truth.
God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. 2Cor.5:19.
All will be judged then reconciled back to God so that He will be All in all.
God is a consuming fire and will burn out all the dross from everyone."
#92 - MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
"As an escape from the doctrine of eternal torment, I at first embraced the doctrine of annihilation for the wicked, and for a little while tried to comfort myself with the belief that this life ended all for them. But the more I thought of it, the more it seemed to me that it would be a confession of serious failure on the part of the Creator, if He could find no way out of the problem of His creation, but to annihilate the creatures whom He had created.
One day a revelation came to me that vindicated God, and settled the whole problem forever. I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that 'as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.' As was the first, even so was the second. The 'all' in one case could not in fairness mean less than the all in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease. The salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw this that day on the tram-car on Market Street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it -- but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had a questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed -- somewhere and somehow God was going to make everything right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever."
#93 - WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
"The inspired scriptures never speak of eternity. They describe nothing as eternal. They contain no term which itself bears our time sense of everlasting. As eternity is not a subject of revelation, our present object is to discover how and when this unscriptural term gained entrance into theology, with most disastrous results.
It may be stated, without fear of contradiction, that the more one explores into the early centuries of Christendom, the clearer does it become that a corrupt theology was alone responsible for displacing the teaching regarding the eons by a dogma respecting 'eternity.'"
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 19, 2011, 01:15:20 PM
#91 - BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
"I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE WORLD BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD" Jn. 12:47
"When I first began to believe in the reconciliation of the world, I fell on my knees and put my head on the floor and cried tears of joy. The revelation came to me in a flash, like lightning and immediately I received it as truth.
God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. 2Cor.5:19.
All will be judged then reconciled back to God so that He will be All in all.
God is a consuming fire and will burn out all the dross from everyone."
So wonderful and simple, yet man cant see it. :sigh:
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 22, 2011, 02:39:34 AM
#93 - WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
"The inspired scriptures never speak of eternity. They describe nothing as eternal. They contain no term which itself bears our time sense of everlasting. As eternity is not a subject of revelation, our present object is to discover how and when this unscriptural term gained entrance into theology, with most disastrous results.
It may be stated, without fear of contradiction, that the more one explores into the early centuries of Christendom, the clearer does it become that a corrupt theology was alone responsible for displacing the teaching regarding the eons by a dogma respecting 'eternity.'"
Amen and Glory!
#94 - MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe.
It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."
God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history. The holies of the holies were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time. It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."
#95 - TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
Do you find your heart tardy to believe that God will have all mankind to be saved?" 1Tim. 2:4
"Those who would not yield an inch from the position that all have sinned means all, do not hesitate to rob God of His all in all shall be justified, all shall be reconciled, all shall be vivified, that God may be All in all.
This is God's grand goal: all saved, all justified, all reconciled, all vivified, that God may be All in all. This goal will see fruition when the eons have run their course. Do not confuse God's goal with His process."
#96 - MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
"The world hates God because of the picture Christianity has painted of Him. The doctrine of eternal torment is a teaching of demons; a myth. It infects the world via a series of false expressions, printed onto tracts and forced into sermons. Those who espouse and teach it are in full heed of deceiving spirits, though they know it not.
There must be a remedy, and there is. 2Timothy 2:15, 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.'
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying."
Thank you Rodger, I have been enjoying the love and honesty of your snippets. :HeartThrob:
#97 - THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"Without God's Spirit the 'depths of God' remain unknown. What an essential factor this is in the believer's quest!
When God's immense love evokes us to a higher plain, nothing will thwart our yielding to Him. Our past illusions must fade away with all of its façade in order that a more accurate realization of God and the depths of God can be grasped in prelude to the ultimate retrieving of all to God through Christ so He truly will be All in everyone. He shall be 'All in all' in the total kaleidoscope envelope of LOVE. This is the Spirit-Reality Whom we should unabatedly proclaim to those who have ears to hear."
#98 - NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"It is not a matter of if, only a matter of when each individual will respond to the irresistible call of God's love – a love filled with such peace and calmness that no one will be able to withstand its comfort indefinitely.
The power of God's love will attract like a magnet EVERYONE to their safe consolation within the confines of reconciliation. This, my dear friends is what 'God being All in all' is all about. The happy tidings are that none will be eternally lost or destroyed.
When the Holy Spirit's vision arrives within us, then and only then will we be able to grasp the fact that God's love does not contain the words 'eternally lost or destroyed' in its vocabulary."
:thumbsup:
#99 - SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
"Annihilation is only one step from its false associate 'eternal torment.' When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED? - chapters three and four
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
#100 - 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
#101 - 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
INTRODUCTION: "The Scriptures analyzed in this book declare that much more was accomplished by Christ than traditionally taught. May your eyes be enlightened to see the joy that Jesus saw as He hung on the tree of crucifixion. May the traditions of the elders fall as scales from your eyes to see the full magnitude of the victory of Jesus Christ! When they do, your Bible will appear to be a brand new book, full of the power of God's love to be victorious over all things."
#102 - A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
" 'For we must needs die, and are as water spilt upon the ground which cannot be gathered up again, yet doth God devise means that His banished be not expelled from Him' (2Sam.14:14). The entire passage from 2Sam.14:1-21 shows that no matter how far one may stray from the Lord and undergo internal banishment from a sense of acceptance, nevertheless, our merciful Lord God Himself has devised means whereby His banished ones would not be expelled forever from Him. 'For out of Him, and through Him, and for Him are all. To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' (Rom. 11:36). 'For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.' (Rom. 11:32 CLNT)."
#103 - THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
"May we get a glimpse of Christ's wondrous Person as we peer into Sacred Writ. As we go back before the ages of time, through the eons of the Scriptures, forward to the grand finale, to the consummation of the ages, to that day when total reconciliation is completed and eternity continues.
'every knee bowing, celestial
and terrestrial and subterranean,
and every tongue acclaiming that
Jesus Christ is Lord, for the
glory of the Father'
God would receive no glory merely to see the unbelievers agree that Jesus is Lord, but too late, thus going off to destruction. Nay! The blood of the cross will prevail in every situation, eliminating all sins. What august glory this will bring to the Father as every last one of His creatures acclaim His beloved Son as their Lord!"
#104 - JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency. In the brilliant glory of His ultimate the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power and wisdom and love.
During the final eons every creature in the heavens and on the earth and under the earth will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them, and every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Thus will all ultimately be justified."
#105 - THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
"All men will be saved. But God isn't trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.
Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace. As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.
God not only 'allows' evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day."
#106 - THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
"The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free. Now this word 'destroy' does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect. When Christ took the keys from the prison keeper he, Satan, lost all power and authority. Christ made his office of no effect (Heb. 2:14&15).
While prophets of doom forecast calamity and destruction, the mind of Christ speaks and lights our world with the vision of universal restoration and reconciliation.
Paul told of a great victory where every knee would bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul did not say that only a small number will bow and confess, but he said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. And no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. What a glorious day that will be when every foot steps forth in the river of life up to the ankle, and from the ankle up to the knee. Every knee shall bow!
We are not an accident! We are not a mistake! No one has been overlooked by the Creator. All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.
When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river."
Roger, do you mean even Mother Theresa will be saved?
Quote from: Tony N on November 04, 2011, 04:38:48 PM
Roger, do you mean even Mother Theresa will be saved?
Yup, even her. :happygrin:
#107 - HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
"Who could have peace in the Christian hope while overwhelmed with the consciousness that many of those dearest to us are even right now shrieking hopelessly for watery relief from fiery torments? If any can be happy under such a burden of woe, are they hardened to insensibility; or do they really take their creed seriously?
Do believers in eternal hell torment really believe it, in their careless unconcern for the unsaved, or do they just give formal and thoughtless assent to their creeds. A sincere contemplation of such an infinite spectacle of woe as they present about hell is enough to unseat the reason of every believer of it if it weighs on his mind as it should if true. It would be appalling to know the number of all those who thought they had committed 'the unpardonable sin,' another erroneous tradition, and that they were hopelessly hell-bound because of it, and as a result became maniacs and suicides.
Yet in utter disregard of the frightful results of their hideous pagan ideas, the eternal hell torment evangelists would like to unchristianize those of us who dare to question their views by turning the searchlight of truth on their errors.
After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go? Not back to hell, for it then will be no more. Not back into death, for 'there shall be no more death.' Only one destiny will be possible for them, and that is the one declared in Is. 26:9, and that is correction through judgment."
#108 - LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
"The lake of fire will be abolished when it burns itself out because there is no evil left for it to feed upon, and the whole universe will throb with joy when the second death is abolished with the successful completion of the great and glorious work the Lord Jesus will bring to full fruition with the perfecting of all in the heavens and on earth.
What a prospect! God's purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) fulfilled in perfect accord with His irresistible will. 'And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, 'Unto Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for the ages of the ages (Rev. 5:13) – a grand Hallelujah Chorus echoing through the boundless universe and proclaiming that God IS Love."
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 06, 2011, 12:42:42 PM
#108 - LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
"The lake of fire will be abolished when it burns itself out because there is no evil left for it to feed upon, and the whole universe will throb with joy when the second death is abolished with the successful completion of the great and glorious work the Lord Jesus will bring to full fruition with the perfecting of all in the heavens and on earth.
What a prospect! God's purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) fulfilled in perfect accord with His irresistible will. 'And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, 'Unto Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for the ages of the ages (Rev. 5:13) – a grand Hallelujah Chorus echoing through the boundless universe and proclaiming that God IS Love."
GLORRRYYY!!!! :bgdance:
#109 - UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16).
EDITOR'S NOTE: Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
#110 - 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
Cool. I jus luv these snippets!
Quote from: eaglesway on November 09, 2011, 04:22:37 AM
Cool. I jus luv these snippets!
#111 - ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
"This is a power packed and mind shaking question!!
To wit:
How can every creature which is in the heavens and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea and all that are in them (describing every living soul made by God) which includes everyone that has come from every dimension of life or death, or everything that came out from God ... say, Blessing and honor and glory and power unto the Lamb Jesus Christ the heart of the Father, if they are not all going to be enjoying Him as we who now believe are? Does this not describe and give witness to the day of the reconciliation of all unto God where they came from?"
God will not be defeated in the slightest --- for 'There are diversities of operations, but it is the same God Who worketh all in all (1Cor. 12:6).
#112 - THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves, Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.
The Greek of the New Testament shows that all punishment is age-lasting, not forever as the King James Version renders it."
#113 - THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
"When one looks at the first 500 years of Christianity, not one creed even hinted at "Eternal Torment;" not one creed denied Universal Restoration;" no church council condemned "Universal Restoration.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
When one looks at the lives of those church leaders who brought the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" into the church, we find a long string of envyings, power plays, persecutions, character assassinations, book burnings, murders, and tortures. They became like the god they created – tormentors and murderers! They exchanged the truth for a lie and brought darkness to the world – the Dark Ages."
#114 - ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
This is a writing showing that the Doctrine of Eternal Death finds no support in the Greek or Hebrew texts. While the teaching makes the Christian God more loving and merciful than the Doctrine of Eternal Torment, there is a much more Scriptural way of proving that our Father's mercy extends far beyond "Eternal Death," or "Eternal Punishment."
#115 - THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE & GARY AMIRAULT
"Christian leaders have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is 'the inerrant' translation of the so-called original texts. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years, and there have been thousands of corrections!
This world need to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Read the prophets and you will not find a place of eternal torment for the wicked. If the Creator loved us and created such a horrible place, He would surely have plastered the warning everywhere. The KJV has the phrase 'everlasting punishment' only once. Yet, when looking at these word in the Greek, even these two references turn out to be 'age-during correction.' Again we ask, if eternal torment be the horrible fate of most of mankind, why such a little warning?
The Scriptures tell us the mind of man cannot conceive the height, length, depth, and width of our Father's love for His creation. His ways are much higher than our in all areas, including His justice, love, and wisdom. He wounds, but like a doctor, to bring about healing. He says 'Vengeance is Mine' knowing only He can return good for evil, an innocent life for a guilty one. He overcomes His enemies with good and tells you to do the same. His love never fails. Believe it. It will never fail anyone, including you. You can now enter into your rest. 'For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth, of things in the heavens (Col. 1:20).
"Snippets Awayyyy!" Explosive reasons why the doctrine of eternal torment is neither scriptural or logical!!!! :swordfight:
#116 - THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
"Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.
What the Holy Spirit mean by 'fire and brimstone' is 'divine purification,' or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.
Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be 'All in all.' When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, 'the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.' "
FANTASTIC!
#117 - OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
"God is a despot. Paul in Ephesians 1:11, speaks of 'the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.' Yes, God exercise a despotic sway over the whole universe, but we are thankful for this because He is Love. Though He will brook no opposition to the furtherance of His purpose, He is never a tyrant. When He inflicts evil upon any, it is always in order that good may follow. His sovereign will is the ultimate salvation and blessing of all, that He may be All in all.
For all creation in its need,
The future is engraved
In words of life, for all to read,
'In grace shall you be saved.'
Let every mental conflict cease,
Let every barrier fall,
For grace removes each bar to peace
Till Thou art All in all.
O God, how glorious is Thy grace!
How radiantly divine!
It stretches out its wide embrace,
To make all creatures Thine.
When God is All in all, the whole creation will have become His achievement, and every member will be a beneficiary of His OVERWHELMING GRACE."
#118 - THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
"Love conquers all, for it is the love of God that allows humanity to see its frailty that in the bitter dregs it may choose life. I thank the Lord that the plan of redemption wasn't a stop gap measure but a well thought out plan that in the fullness of time, all will have Christ as their head. Victory in Jesus!
Before creation there was no time. Since creation there has been time. But with the consummation of things and God becoming All in all, time will end, and sin, which is limited by time shall end. Yet, God and creation shall go on.
If God cannot surmount the evil in the world and turn it all into good, then there is a power equal and opposite to Him. But sin isn't eternal. The cross of Calvary isn't a 'hope so' move by God, but rather, a well conceived thought out solution to the problem of sin. There is an end to sin and to the death it causes. All shall be swallowed up into victory. Some, God has planned to accept Him now. Others, like Pharaoh, He hardens their heart. But being a righteous Judge He will show wrath on those who need it to cleanse them of their fallen nature.
The plan of God is such that His grace, that unmerited favor, will cause man and all of creation to be restored. Great was the joy of the father for the return of his son. How much more so will God be rejoicing at the restitution of all.
A father never beats a child to death for wrong, but corrects and loves regardless. Even so is our Heavenly Father. The mercy and love of God is to be so revealed that Jesus shall be All in all.
The purpose for the present is to save some. The purpose for the future is to save all. Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Even he who dies in sin shall be saved as by fire. Victorious grace covers a larger redemption than many would consider."
:thumbsup:
#119 - JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
#120 - THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Heb. 11:3 should read, 'Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God.' The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:16 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, hath He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.' (Alexander Thompson's translation)
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons, all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20). Only as one sees the plan of the ages does he see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race. When you perceive the truth concerning the ages your Bible will become a new and more wonderful Book than you knew you had."
#121 - THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large.
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
#122 - WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
" May some poor soul whose loved one has died without receiving Christ as their Saviour, find a measure of relief in the assurance that they are neither now, nor ever shall be, tortured endlessly and consciously in an inferno of fire wrongly described as the eternal abode of the dammed. Instead, they will be deprived of life until the lake of fire which is the second death no longer exists."
#123 - MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
"The teaching of the ultimate exaltation of Jesus Christ and the ultimate reconciliation of all men unto Him, make God's judgments consistent with His plan of creation. God's judgments become understandable, purposeful, and constructive without violating any aspect of justice, truth, or mercy. If just one person were condemned to eternal torment, then God's purpose in creation would have been defeated. God's judgments are redemptive.
The end result of God's judgments is, 'That in the Name of Jesus every knee will bow, celestial, terrestrial, and subterranean, and every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10,11). God planned for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, both in the heavens, and on earth (Eph. 1:10). Amplified Bible
If I had to recommend any one particular thread on this forum it would be......
SNIPPETS!!!!!
#124 - ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
"Eternity and its synonyms are grievous mistranslations of Hebrew and Greek words. Both the Old and the New Testament misuses indicate a biased mind-set which hides God's true nature and purpose. Based upon decisions made in this life on earth, it is supposed that the vast multitudes that miss heaven enter an eternal hell of burning torment and anguish.
The uniform translation of aion and its adjective form aionios solves many inconsistencies in Scripture study. Jesus came to give life eonian, a quality of relationship with the Father through Himself, a life that is only the earnest of much more to come.
The most shameful consequences of this error are the grotesque images which Christianity projects of God, Who is really so loving, wise, and powerful. God's love nature corresponds with His purpose. His wisdom and majesty dominate the ages through which all mankind will be drawn to God's goal of creating man in His own image, 'that God may be All in all' (1Cor. 15:28).
#125 - JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF16 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
Internet version
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Amen.
#126 – FUNDAMENTALS OR BASIS OF BELIEF – Thomas Griffith
"We will get good out of evil. Our gracious Educator does evolve for us out of corruption, temptation and sin, new purposes, new skill, new triumphs.
Beyond the overruling of intermediate evil into subserviency to a higher good, what has been superinduced as a transition state of things is therefore seen to be necessary only for a time. It will pass away with the functions which it is made to fulfill. It will at last be superseded by the highest good for everyone."
#127 – DOOMED TO BE SAVED – Frances Power Cobbe
"I think if we were not caught in the meshes of that wretched Augustinian scheme of theology which postulates eternal hell to compel us to accept it, -- I think, I say, if it were not for this theology, all Christendom must have long ago come to see, that, at the very least, God feels towards a sinner as a saint would do, and not as a man less good, or wise, or merciful.
We do not think man's evil can, in the long run of the ages, finally outspeed God's ever-pursuing mercy. He must overtake us sooner or later. We may temporarily choose evil rather than good, and vileness instead of nobleness, and be ungrateful and sinful. But God will get the better of us at last."
#128 - This is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful. It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :Sparkletooth:
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid. :thumbsup:
#129 – A POEM BY A.G. CAMPBELL
I deem they greatly err, who hold
That He Who made the human soul,
Will not its destinies control
For final good – but, wrathful, fold
It in the shrouds of hopeless woe,
Of deathless gloom, of quenchless fire,
The creatures of His vengeful ire,
Whence it can never ransom know.
So, in the world to come, His love
Shall freely unto all abound;
Even prisoners in the depths profound
Shall see His kind face beam above
Their dreary cells, and hear His voice,
Unheeded once, in mercy call, --
"Turn, turn to Me and live!" and all
Shall hear the summons and rejoice.
Lost men, lost angels, shall return, --
Satan himself be purified;
Death shall be conquered in his pride,
And hell's fierce fires shall cease to burn.
Then shall our God be All in all –
His love bear universal sway;
His love preserves all souls for aye,
Nor shall the weakest fear a fall.
#130 – FROM A SERMON ON UNIVERSALISM – Stopford A. Brooke
"That Christ should have descended to assume the nature of all men, only to cast them away as refuse to be burned, does so contradict His revelation that it is no wonder that the idea of everlasting damnation should have destroyed men's belief.
No, the earthly dead will move on, a mighty stream to mingle in the ocean of the righteousness of God, on that far off but certain day when God will be All in all."
#131 – ENIGMAS OF LIFE, POSTSCRIPTUM – W.R. GREG
"Given a hell of torment and despair for millions of our friends and fellow men, can the good enjoy heaven except by becoming bad, -- miraculously changed and changed deplorably for the worst. In a word, putting on, along with the white garments of the redeemed, a coldness and hardness of heart? Does not this simple refection suffice to disperse into thin air the current notions of a world of everlasting pain?"
#132 – THE SHAKING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH – Charles Kingsley
"We do not deny that the wages of sin is death. We do not deny the necessity and certainty of punishment. Only tell us not that it must be endless, and thereby destroy its whole purpose. We too believe in an eternal fire, but we believe its existence to be not a curse but a blessing. That fire is God Himself Who taketh away the sins of the world, and of Whom it is therefore written, 'Our God is a consuming fire."
Amen!
Amen Amen!
and amen again!
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 02, 2011, 09:59:19 AM
#132 – THE SHAKING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH – Charles Kingsley
"We do not deny that the wages of sin is death. We do not deny the necessity and certainty of punishment. Only tell us not that it must be endless, and thereby destroy its whole purpose. We too believe in an eternal fire, but we believe its existence to be not a curse but a blessing. That fire is God Himself Who taketh away the sins of the world, and of Whom it is therefore written, 'Our God is a consuming fire."
BEAUTIFUL! I must copy that. :happygrin:
#133 – POEM BY HELEN BRONTE
There lives within my heart,
A hope long nursed by me;
And should its cheering ray depart,
How dark my soul would be.
That as in Adam all have died,
In Christ shall all men live;
And ever round His throne abide
Eternal praise to give.
That even the wicked shall at last
Be fitted for the skies;
And when their dreadful doom is past
To light and life arise.
I ask not how remote the day,
Nor what the sinner's woe,
Before their dross is purged away;
Enough for me to know,
That when the cup of wrath is drained,
The metal purified,
They'll cling to what they once disdained
And live by Him Who died.
#134 – DISPUTED POINTS – George Dawson
"Take the doctrine in which most of you were brought up – that every man who is not saved will go to hell, and that hell is a constant fire whereunto a man must be condemned forever.
I am told this is in the Scriptures. I can't find it; but if it were there I would not believe it. I was told that it was so, and I have no doubt I said it was so. But now I disbelieve it. If this is backsliding, I will backslide.
Well, how came we ever to doubt this horrific doctrine? Not that any commentator with marvelous exegesis showed us that the text did not mean that; -- for I am but little interested in the quibble that the fire burns forever, but that the thing put into the fire burn only so long as it is capable of burning.
What has put hell fire out is a better understanding of God, and a fuller comprehension of the quality of God's love. The love of God conquers the assertion of orthodoxy."
#135 – YUSEF – J. Ross Browne
"Oh, ye who are wrapped in the selfishness of a single idea! – ye who bode eternal destruction to others! Look out upon the world and learn that there are millions of human hearts as sincere and devoted as yours, who perceive a divine power great and good and merciful enough to save all, even to the weakest and most benighted."
#136 – BODY AND MIND – George Moore
"Every soul that is out of keeping with divine order must remain, in the license of a perverse will, forever vile, until restored to the dominion of truth by the attractiveness of light, and the miseries of darkness."
#137 – CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe."
#138 – CHILDHOOD OF THE WORLD – Edward Clodd
"You would think your father very hard and cruel if he loaded you with good things, and sent your brothers and sisters to some homeless spot to live uncared for and unloved. And yet that is exactly what some people say that God does. They have spoken of Him Who has give life to every man, woman and child as staying near only a few of His creatures, and leaving the rest to care for themselves.
Believe that He who is called our Father is better, more just, more loving, than the best fathers can be."
#139 – BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.
Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.
How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?
Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 07, 2011, 03:46:13 PM
#137 – CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe."
Eph 3:7-11 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There would be know need to make the manifold wisdom of God known, through the church, if the principalities and powers were to be eternally tormented or annihilated, would there?
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 08, 2011, 01:23:42 PM
#138 – CHILDHOOD OF THE WORLD – Edward Clodd
"You would think your father very hard and cruel if he loaded you with good things, and sent your brothers and sisters to some homeless spot to live uncared for and unloved. And yet that is exactly what some people say that God does. They have spoken of Him Who has give life to every man, woman and child as staying near only a few of His creatures, and leaving the rest to care for themselves.
Believe that He who is called our Father is better, more just, more loving, than the best fathers can be."
Yes Amen!! This was one of the major problems I had with traditiional views.
#140 – IN MEMORIUM – Alfred Tennyson
"Oh, yes, we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill,
To pangs of nature, sins of will,
Defects of doubt, and taints of blood.
That nothing walks with aimless feet,
That not one life shall be destroyed,
Or cast as rubbish to the void,
When God hath made the pile complete:
Behold! We know not anything;
I can but trust that good shall fall
At last – far off – at last to all,
And every Winter change to Spring."
#141 – ONE RELIGION; MANY CREEDS – Ross Winans
"Our belief is that man, being governed and trained through time, a good and happy result must ensue to each individual. The idea of hell fire and eternal torment, when properly considered, is an idea that is alike blasphemous and illogical.
God has ordained that every man shall sooner or later, recognize and appreciate His blessings. Nothing else is consistent with His determinate will. God is a God of infinite goodness, not of vengeance; to be loved; to be worshiped for love's sake, not through fear of everlasting punishment. We believe that every man will eventually love Him, and strive more and more to serve Him."
#142 – THE STRANGER IN LOWELL – John Greenleaf Whittier
"Through discords of sin and sorrow, pain and wrong, truth rises, a deathless melody whose notes of wailing are hereafter to be changed to those of triumph as they blend with the great harmony of a reconciled universe."
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 12, 2011, 10:09:13 AM
#142 – THE STRANGER IN LOWELL – John Greenleaf Whittier
"Through discords of sin and sorrow, pain and wrong, truth rises, a deathless melody whose notes of wailing are hereafter to be changed to those of triumph as they blend with the great harmony of a reconciled universe."
Rev 5:9-14 And they sang a new song, saying:
" You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we[f] shall reign on the earth."
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
" Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
" Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
#143 – THE UNITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT – John A.D. Mauricq
"In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other."
#144 – DISSERTATIONS ON THE FINAL STATE OF MANKIND – Thomas Newton
"Nothing can be more contrary to the divine nature and attributes, than for a God all wise, all-good, all-powerful, and all-perfect, to bestow existence on any being Who He foreknows must terminate in wretchedness and misery without respite of end. His goodness could never give birth to any one being, and much less to numberless beings whose end He foresaw would be irretrievable misery; nor could even His justice inflict everlasting punishment.
God made all His creatures finally to be happy; He could never make any whose end He foreknew would be misery everlasting. God is love; infinite benevolence alone prompted Him to action, and infinite benevolence combined with unerring wisdom, and supported by irresistible power, will infallibly accomplish its purpose in the best possible manner."
#145 – THE TRUE STORY OF MY LIFE – Hans Christian Andersen
"I received gladly, both with feeling and understanding, the doctrine that God is love. Everything which opposes this –- a burning hell, therefore, whose fire endures forever –- I could not recognize."
#146 – LIFE – Thomas Guthrie
"St. John uses a very broad expression. 'Jesus Christ,' he says, 'is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' 'The whole world. Ah,' some would say, 'that is dangerous language.' It is God's language – John speaking as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. It throws a zone of mercy around the world. Perish the thought that would narrow it by a hand's breadth."
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 14, 2011, 12:30:15 PM
#144 – DISSERTATIONS ON THE FINAL STATE OF MANKIND – Thomas Newton
"Nothing can be more contrary to the divine nature and attributes, than for a God all wise, all-good, all-powerful, and all-perfect, to bestow existence on any being Who He foreknows must terminate in wretchedness and misery without respite of end. His goodness could never give birth to any one being, and much less to numberless beings whose end He foresaw would be irretrievable misery; nor could even His justice inflict everlasting punishment.
God made all His creatures finally to be happy; He could never make any whose end He foreknew would be misery everlasting. God is love; infinite benevolence alone prompted Him to action, and infinite benevolence combined with unerring wisdom, and supported by irresistible power, will infallibly accomplish its purpose in the best possible manner."
What a mighty God we serve!!!
#147 – AUTOBIOGRAPHY – LEIGH HUNT
"Are God and His ways to be represented as something so different from the best attributes of humanity? If an angel were to tell me to believe in eternal punishment I would not do it; for it would better become me to believe the angel a delusion, than God monstrous; and we make Him monstrous when we make Him the author of eternal punishment, though we may not have the courage to think so. For God's sake, let us have piety enough to believe Him better."
#148 – THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
#149 – THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 19, 2011, 09:49:40 PM
:HeartThrob:
#150 – POEM BY HOSEA BALLOU (1771-1852)
"In God's eternity
There shall a day arise,
When all the race of man shall be
With Jesus in the skies.
As night before the rays
Of morning flees away,
Sin shall retire before the blaze
Of God's eternal day.
As music fills the grove
When stormy clouds are past,
Sweet anthems of redeeming love
Shall all employ at last.
Redeemed from death and sin
Shall Adam's numerous race,
A ceaseless song of praise begin,
And shout redeeming grace."
#151 – In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson quotes Thomas Belsham (1750-1829).
"I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage, one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught.
We see the triumph of God's benevolence in restoring the dead transgressor to life; in visiting him with suffering in exact proportion to the greatness of his offences; and finally, in his ultimate purification from moral stain, and his restoration to virtue, to happiness, and to God. This clears up at once all the difficulties of divine dispensations, and the belief of it fills the pious and contemplative mind with unspeakable satisfaction and delight."
#152 – In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of John Prior Estlin (1747-1817).
"To a belief in the doctrine of the eternity of hell torments, I impute more absurdity, more misery, and more un-Christian conduct, than to all other false opinions put together. The effects of this doctrine, when a person applies it to himself, are gloom and despair, often terminating in mental derangement; when he applies it to others, pride, cruelty, hatred, and all the worst passions of human nature.
It certainly argues a greater degree of benevolence in the Governor of the world, after the punishment of His creatures, to restore them to His favor, than either to preserve them in misery, or to blot them out of existence.
The firm belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration, has afforded much consolation to myself during a large portion of my life; has rendered advanced years placid and serene, and enables me to contemplate death itself, notwithstanding its gloomy appearance, as one of the most essential blessings of the whole plan of Providence.
I would as a friend, advise everyone to take this subject into his most serious consideration. I would wish him to experience during the remainder of his life, all the happiness which results from the full persuasion of this delightful doctrine. I pray to God that others may experience that perpetual sunshine of the mind, that joy in the divine administration, that serenity through life, and that cheering prospect in the hour of death, which the belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration does so manifestly inspire."
#153 - In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Jung Stilling (1740-1817).
"Not a single soul will be lost. They will all – all be saved at last. The Holy Scriptures do not in one instance say the contrary. All the passages wherewith some are essaying to prove the infinity of hell torments, prove nothing further then that they shall continue an undefined time. The Hebrew word olam, and the Greek word aionios signify nowhere an infinite, but an indefinite length of time."
#154 – FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke
"And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures. The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb."
#155 – OBSERVATIONS ON MAN – Dr. David Hartley
"I thank God that He has at last brought me to a lively sense of His infinite goodness and mercy to all, and that I now see it in all His works, and in every page of His Word. It has taught me to love every man and to rejoice in the happiness which our Heavenly Father intends for all; and has dispersed all the gloomy and melancholy thoughts which arise from the apprehension of eternal misery for myself or friends.
How long, or how much God will punish wicked men, He has nowhere said, and therefore I cannot tell. But this I am sure of, that in judgment He will remember mercy; that He chastens only because He loves, and His tender mercies are over all His works. God will conduct the wicked through all the afflictions which He thinks fit to lay upon them for their good, with infinite tenderness and compassion."
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 24, 2011, 02:02:16 PM
#154 – FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke
"And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures. The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb."
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
#156 - In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Olympiodorus (A.D. 550)
"Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons. The soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. The soul is punished for an eonian period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment its eon."
:2thumbs: Amen!
Quote from: jabcat on December 26, 2011, 08:11:21 PM
:2thumbs: Amen!
#157 – FUTURE LIFE - William Rounseville Alger
"Even the loathsome realm of darkness and torment shall be burnished and made part of the all-inclusive Paradise. All darkness, falsehood, and suffering, shall flee utterly away, and the whole universe be filled by the illumination of good spirits, blessed with fruitions of eternal delight."
#!58 – THE DOCTRINE OF THE UNIVERSALISTS - Ulriucus Zuinglius
"I cannot believe that the Lord will cast away from Him nations whose only crime it is never to have heard of the gospel. No, let us abjure the rashness of setting bounds to the divine mercy."
#159 – THE MYSTERY OF GOD – Gerard Winstanley
"Christ Jesus will deliver all mankind out of bondage. This I see to be a truth by testimony of Scripture, as God is pleased to teach me. But this mystery of God is not to be done all at once, but in several dispensations, some whereof are past, some are in being, and some are yet to come. The whole creation of mankind, which is God's work, shall be delivered from corruption, bondage, death, and pain. Mankind shall be by Christ reconciled to his Maker and be made one in spirit with Him; i.e. the curse shall be removed, and the power of it killed and consumed.
Truly this is according to the current of the whole Scriptures, that everyone shall be made of one heart and one spirit, i.e. that all shall be brought to obey the Father, walk humbly before Him, and live in peace and love in Him. This is the doctrine of Christ and the gospel. This is glad tidings to hear of. When you are made to enjoy this doctrine as yours, then you shall know what it is to know the Son, and what it is to be set free by the Son."
#160 – GOD'S LIGHT DECLARED IN MYSTERIES – Richard Coppin
"What is hell? Tis the separation from the enjoyment that the soul is capable of.
They shall not come forth till they have paid the utmost farthing, then shall they receive mercy. For know that God is good, and He will not punish a finite being infinitely."
Richard Coppin also wrote a work with the following long title ---
"OF THE TORMENTS OF HELL; THE FOUNDATION AND PILLARS THEREOF DISCOVERED, SEARCHED, SHAKEN AND REMOVED, WITH INFALLABLE PROOF THAT THERE IS NOT TO BE A PUNISHMENT AFTER THIS LIFE THAT SHALL NEVER END FOR ANYONE TO ENDURE"
#161 – Thomas Whittemore wrote, "Entirely upon the ground of the Scriptures, according to the views he entertained of them, Jeremy White wrote a work in defense of the doctrine of universal salvation called
THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, OR A VINDICATION OF THE GOODNESS AND GRACE OF GOD, TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL."
Thomas Whittemore continues, "Jeremy White believed that all are to be restored, and that we have the assurance of this truth in the character of God Who is love, to which His very anger is subservient, and that the Scriptures assure us of His complete abounding grace over all sin and all death."
#162 – REASON AND PHILOSOPHY NO ENEMIES TO FAITH – William Whiston (translator of Josephus)
"The words used about the duration of torments in the New Testament, and all over the Septuagint, whence the language of the New Testament was taken, no where mean eternity. My reasons for that opinion I have long embraced, and intimated to the world against the eternity of hell torments."
#163 – Sir Isaac Newton, commenting on Scriptures in the book of Revelation wrote
"The degree and duration of the torments of degenerate and anti-Christian people should be no other than would be approved of by those angels who had ever labored for their salvation, and the Lamb Who has redeemed them with His most precious blood."
#164 – THE PHILOSPHICAL PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL AND REVEALED RELIGION – Andrew Michael Ramsay
"Eternal Providence desires, wills and employs continually all the means necessary to lead intelligent creatures to ultimate and supreme happiness. Almighty Power, wisdom and love cannot be eternally frustrated in His absolute and ultimate designs: therefore, God will at last pardon and re-establish in happiness all lapsed beings."
#165 – From a letter to Dr. Phillip Doddridge from Henry J. Barker:
"It is so. We read it in the book of God, that word and truth and gospel of our salvation, that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Yes Doddridge, it is so. The fruit of our Redeemer's sufferings and victory is the entire and eternal destruction of sin and death for everyone. And is it not a glorious destruction? A most blessed ruin? No enemy so formidable, no tyranny so bitter, no fetters so heavy and galling, no prison so dark and dismal, but they are vanquished and disarmed; the unerring dart is blunted and broken, the prison pulled down and razed. Our Lord is risen as the first fruits of them that slept."
#166 – THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – Paul Siegvolk
"As the centre of the whole Bible, whereat all its contents aim, is this, that by God in the beginning every thing was created very good; and that by Christ, the heavenly Wisdom, through Whom all things were created, all whatsoever is corrupted through sin, must at last be made good again. So may anyone whose eyes are opened to see clearly into this point, find a great many testimonies of this eternal truth, both in the books of the Old and New testament."
#167 – THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF HAPPINESS - Gotthelf Samuel Steinbart
"God can never punish any, more than is necessary for his reformation. He cannot mistake in the choice of His means, and must always reach His end. He would appear less lovely if one creature should be forever miserable."
#168 – APOLOGY FOR SOCRATES - Johann August Eberhard
"Punishment being an evil, cannot be employed by a good being, unless for ends whose goodness is greater than the evils suffered, and which could not be obtained without inflicting them. God punishes not for the common good only, but also for the reformation of the sufferer; which being accomplished, punishment has no further use. It was designed to influence the love and practice of virtue; and when these are produced, it must give place to the happy consequences of amendment. Punishment therefore, being a benefit even to the sufferer, when properly viewed by him, must produce emotions of love and gratitude."
#169 – HISTORY OF THE CHURCH – John Le Clerc
"Christ's judgment will be conducted so that its justice shall be seen by all. For the great diversity of crimes there will be a proportional variety of punishments, whatever they consist in. Aionios may be considered an indefinite duration to which God hath placed no limits known to us, the word sometimes signifying an AGE."
#170 - INTRODUCTION OF JOHN'S GOSPEL – Samuel Crellius
"I am persuaded that all men will be finally saved by Jesus Christ, and delivered from the torments of hell."
#171 – PHILOSOPHICAL AND CRITICAL INQUIRIES CONCERNIG CHRISTIANITY – Charles Bonnet
"It will be suitable to the spirit of the whole system of thought to set forth the pains of the wicked as aionion, or rather of an indefinite duration.
If in the Supreme Being, justice be goodness guided by wisdom; if Almighty Benevolence essentially requires the improvement of all intelligent beings; if punishments can be the means of leading to perfection; if there be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth; if there be much love where much has been forgiven: My heart leaps for joy – I am lost in admiration – what a wonderful chain of doctrines! The compassion of the Only Good is infinite – 'He desireth not the death of a sinner; but that he should turn from his wickedness and live.' God DESIRETH! – and shall He desire in vain?
The celestial heralds commissioned to celebrate by their hymns the glad tidings, were to instruct these shepherds in the object and the extent of the mission of Christ – on earth peace, good will towards men – GOOD WILL – not towards one single elected nation, but towards all the nations of the world. GOOD WILL – not to one single generation; but to every generation past and to come. The Benevolence of the Best and greatest of Beings includes all mankind, BECAUSE HE IS THE FATHER OF ALL."
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 10, 2012, 08:15:20 PM
#171 – PHILOSOPHICAL AND CRITICAL INQUIRIES CONCERNIG CHRISTIANITY – Charles Bonnet
"It will be suitable to the spirit of the whole system of thought to set forth the pains of the wicked as aionion, or rather of an indefinite duration.
If in the Supreme Being, justice be goodness guided by wisdom; if Almighty Benevolence essentially requires the improvement of all intelligent beings; if punishments can be the means of leading to perfection; if there be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth; if there be much love where much has been forgiven: My heart leaps for joy – I am lost in admiration – what a wonderful chain of doctrines! The compassion of the Only Good is infinite – 'He desireth not the death of a sinner; but that he should turn from his wickedness and live.' God DESIRETH! – and shall He desire in vain?
The celestial heralds commissioned to celebrate by their hymns the glad tidings, were to instruct these shepherds in the object and the extent of the mission of Christ – on earth peace, good will towards men – GOOD WILL – not towards one single elected nation, but towards all the nations of the world. GOOD WILL – not to one single generation; but to every generation past and to come. The Benevolence of the Best and greatest of Beings includes all mankind, BECAUSE HE IS THE FATHER OF ALL."
Wow, that's just BEAUTIFUL!!!!
Quote from: eaglesway on January 11, 2012, 02:22:36 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 10, 2012, 08:15:20 PM
#171 – PHILOSOPHICAL AND CRITICAL INQUIRIES CONCERNIG CHRISTIANITY – Charles Bonnet
"It will be suitable to the spirit of the whole system of thought to set forth the pains of the wicked as aionion, or rather of an indefinite duration.
If in the Supreme Being, justice be goodness guided by wisdom; if Almighty Benevolence essentially requires the improvement of all intelligent beings; if punishments can be the means of leading to perfection; if there be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth; if there be much love where much has been forgiven: My heart leaps for joy – I am lost in admiration – what a wonderful chain of doctrines! The compassion of the Only Good is infinite – 'He desireth not the death of a sinner; but that he should turn from his wickedness and live.' God DESIRETH! – and shall He desire in vain?
The celestial heralds commissioned to celebrate by their hymns the glad tidings, were to instruct these shepherds in the object and the extent of the mission of Christ – on earth peace, good will towards men – GOOD WILL – not towards one single elected nation, but towards all the nations of the world. GOOD WILL – not to one single generation; but to every generation past and to come. The Benevolence of the Best and greatest of Beings includes all mankind, BECAUSE HE IS THE FATHER OF ALL."
Wow, that's just BEAUTIFUL!!!!
I though so too. :bigGrin:
#172 – THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – Thomas Whittimore
"In his book THOUGHTS ON DIVINE GOODNESS, Ferdinand Oliver Petitpierre taught that men are sinners, and God punishes them with severity; but this severity is dictated by goodness, and all the punishments God inflicts are declared to be for the sinner's good.
How opposed to this is the dreadful doctrine of eternal punishment, and error which grew up under a misconception of the meaning of the word rendered everlasting. God punishes always to reform, a fact which the author establishes with the most irresistible reasoning.
'These shall go away into eonian punishment' in which the word rendered punishment, he maintains, quoting the authority of Wittenbach, and Grotius, signifies a remedial, corrective discipline. The infinite authority of God is entirely founded on His goodness.
'Eternal' punishment is real evil, an infinite evil, in which everything conspires to exclude from God's plan of the ages."
And conspires to stumble the ones in darkness and prevent their seeing the Great Good Will of God their Father.
#173 – ERSKINE'S SKETHCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all."
#174 - WHAT IS TRUTH? ABSOLUTE AND RELATIVE – Don Bast (published 2011)
"It has taken me a long time to unlearn the harmful instruction received over many years of indoctrination. It is God's word alone that is the trustworthy source of truth. The good news of the glory of our happy God (1Tim. 1:11) will expose the error and set us free from the spiritual bondage of man's creeds.
At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the 'potential' savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.
Someday the entire creation itself shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God, and is groaning and travailing, even now, in anticipation. We ourselves also, who have the first fruit of the spirit, we also are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body. For to expectation were we saved (Rom. 8:21-24).
Whatever trials and troubles come our way we are assured that it is not a sign of God's anger or even displeasure. The bond of love we share with God through His Son will never be broken. His desire to please us and be with us never changes. The love of God in our hearts is our steadfast anchor through all the storms of life."
#175 – MEMOIRS OF THE PRIVATE LIFE OF MY FATHER (James Necker) – by Baroness de Stael Holstien
"Eternal punishment! Power Almighty, can they who entertain such an idea know Thee? Eternal fire for those miserable creatures who have so many combats to sustain, and are armed with such feeble weapons! Power Almighty, Thy goodness preceded our birth, it still subsists, it will subsist after we are cut off by the hand of death."
#176 – LETTER OF RESOLUTION – clergyman George Rust
"To imagine that man, for his disposition, be kept in a never-to-be-ended doom of intolerable pain and anguish of body and mind, is to fix so harsh a note upon the mercy and equity of the Righteous Judge of all the world, that the same temper in a man we would execrate and abominate."
#177 – IN A LETTER FROM WILLIAM DUNCOMBE TO REV. SAMUEL SAY
"Vindictive justice, in the Deity, is, I own, no article in my creed. All punishment in the hands of an infinitely wise and good Being, I think, must be medicinal, and what we call chastisement."
#178 – POEM by Soame Jenyns (eighteenth century)
"Oh could mankind but make this truth their guide
And force the helm from prejudice and pride,
Were once these maxims fixed, that God's our friend,
Virtue our good, and happiness our end.
How soon must reason o'er the world prevail,
And error, fraud and superstition fail!
None would hereafter, then, with groundless fear,
Describe the Almighty cruel and severe
Predestinating some without pretense
To Heav'n, and some to hell for no offense;
Inflicting endless pains for transient crimes,
And fav'ring sects, or nations, men or climbs.
None would fierce zeal for piety mistake,
Or malice for whatever tenets sake,
Or think salvation to a few confined
And heav'n too narrow to contain mankind!"
#179 – DYER'S LIFE OF ROBINSON (eighteenth century)
In a letter to a friend, Robert Robinson wrote
"These believers in eternal torment are never shocked; they never blush; but affirm, 'This is wise and just, and kind; and it will be more glorious to God to save me, and damn them to endless and unavoidable woe, than it would be to share eternal life amongst us, and we few, though we hate one another here, shall be the happier for the damnation of the rest.'
Barbarians! What arrogant madness inspires you?
Poor * honies! -- servants that know not what their Lord doth.
O my soul, to such be not thou united.
Cursed be their anger, for it is cruel.
* (definition of "honies" – "the common man without proper revelation")
#180 – SERMONS by George Walker (eighteenth century)
"Some have thought that they could not clothe the future punishment of sin with sufficient terrors, and have given therefore, such exaggerated descriptions of them, both as to degree and duration, as in the opinion of many, can no way be reconciled with just sentiments of God.
The future punishment of the wicked does, in God's nature, suppose a capacity to be relieved of it, of gradually acquiring that better state of mind, and returning inclination towards virtue, which is the first and most desirable end of all punishment."
#181 – From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)
"God hath declared that His will is that all should be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.
Unceasing torments can answer no possible good to anyone in the universe. I conclude them to be neither the will or work of God. Could I suppose them, I must believe them to be inflicted by a wantonness or cruelty which words cannot express, nor heart conceive.
But let this be the comfort of every humble soul, that it hath pleased God to reconcile all things to Himself."
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 20, 2012, 07:42:15 PM
#181 – From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)
"God hath declared that His will is that all should be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.
My sometimes once friends can tolerate my belief that all will be saved, with a condescending thought balloon that reads ("He just can't understand the judgment of God")......
That is, until I, as I must, declare.... "THIS IS THE VERY GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THAT ALL SHALL BE REDEEMED, and ANY OTHER GOSPEL IS IN ERROR".... at which time they gnash upon me with their teeth and declare me to be in danger of the eternal torment, or annihilation, which I have untaught.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2012, 09:47:40 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 20, 2012, 07:42:15 PM
#181 – From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)
"God hath declared that His will is that all should be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.
My sometimes once friends can tolerate my belief that all will be saved, with a condescending thought balloon that reads ("He just can't understand the judgment of God")......
That is, until I, as I must, declare.... "THIS IS THE VERY GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THAT ALL SHALL BE REDEEMED, and ANY OTHER GOSPEL IS IN ERROR".... at which time they gnash upon me with their teeth and declare me to be in danger of the eternal torment, or annihilation, which I have untaught.
Hi eaglesway.
I'm 73 and it's been my long time experience to keep learning that most URs have lost and are condemned by their former ET friends. It seems to be par for the UR course.
For me the choice was to either lose my ET friends, or be locked away for life in a mental hospital over my inability to keep pretending that I loved an ET god.
The issue caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78). I was able to recover by listening to, and reading the works of Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor). BTW, all of Ray's writings can be read on the internet. Just type in Ray Prinzing. His REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is particularly good!
http://hellbusters.8m.com/contall.htm
#182 – LITERARY HOURS – Dr. Nathan Drake
"That sin and torture should be eternal can neither accord with the justice nor the goodness of Deity, and would appear to many devout Christians to convert the God they should adore and love, into a perfect demon. Fortunately, however, an opinion so repulsive is neither accordant with reason, nor the Scriptures."
#183 – MISCELLANEOUS MAXIMS AND THOUGHTS – William Matthews
"In my childhood I found it impossible to fix my belief in the common notion of endless torments. I discovered there are plain arguments from reason and Scripture against that presumptuous doctrine of endless punishment, and I am now cheered with the rational, Scriptural, and as I think, glorious doctrine of the punishment of Divine justice being eventually subservient to a universal purification and fitness for heavenly habitations."
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 21, 2012, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2012, 09:47:40 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 20, 2012, 07:42:15 PM
#181 – From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)
"God hath declared that His will is that all should be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.
My sometimes once friends can tolerate my belief that all will be saved, with a condescending thought balloon that reads ("He just can't understand the judgment of God")......
That is, until I, as I must, declare.... "THIS IS THE VERY GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THAT ALL SHALL BE REDEEMED, and ANY OTHER GOSPEL IS IN ERROR".... at which time they gnash upon me with their teeth and declare me to be in danger of the eternal torment, or annihilation, which I have untaught.
Hi eaglesway.
I'm 73 and it's been my long time experience to keep learning that most URs have lost and are condemned by their former ET friends. It seems to be par for the UR course.
For me the choice was to either lose my ET friends, or be locked away for life in a mental hospital over my inability to keep pretending that I loved an ET god.
The issue caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78). I was able to recover by listening to, and reading the works of Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor). BTW, all of Ray's writings can be read on the internet. Just type in Ray Prinzing. His REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is particularly good!
http://hellbusters.8m.com/contall.htm
I first heard the glorious gospel of the salvation of all in 1980. I wrestled between UR and annihilation for years. ET never registered with me, somehow I always knew that was off. I really began proclaiming the reconciliation of all as "the good news" and as "the Only Good News" maybe 10 years ago, when, after the Lord had provided me an extended period of dedicated time to study through evry question I had and thoroughly study through the Greek and Hebrew along with contextual issues- I felt the confidence and the confirmation in the spirit to stand boldy for the victorious gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, I find that gentleness and boldness (combined with consideration for the struggles of others who must overturn their assumptions and traditions to embrace the teaching of the Holy Spirit--even as I struggled) releases the beautiful feet of those who run upon the high places proclaiming GOOD NEWS.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 22, 2012, 10:43:00 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 21, 2012, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2012, 09:47:40 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 20, 2012, 07:42:15 PM
#181 – From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)
"God hath declared that His will is that all should be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.
My sometimes once friends can tolerate my belief that all will be saved, with a condescending thought balloon that reads ("He just can't understand the judgment of God")......
That is, until I, as I must, declare.... "THIS IS THE VERY GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THAT ALL SHALL BE REDEEMED, and ANY OTHER GOSPEL IS IN ERROR".... at which time they gnash upon me with their teeth and declare me to be in danger of the eternal torment, or annihilation, which I have untaught.
Hi eaglesway.
I'm 73 and it's been my long time experience to keep learning that most URs have lost and are condemned by their former ET friends. It seems to be par for the UR course.
For me the choice was to either lose my ET friends, or be locked away for life in a mental hospital over my inability to keep pretending that I loved an ET god.
The issue caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78). I was able to recover by listening to, and reading the works of Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor). BTW, all of Ray's writings can be read on the internet. Just type in Ray Prinzing. His REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is particularly good!
http://hellbusters.8m.com/contall.htm
I first heard the glorious gospel of the salvation of all in 1980. I wrestled between UR and annihilation for years. ET never registered with me, somehow I always knew that was off. I really began proclaiming the reconciliation of all as "the good news" and as "the Only Good News" maybe 10 years ago, when, after the Lord had provided me an extended period of dedicated time to study through evry question I had and thoroughly study through the Greek and Hebrew along with contextual issues- I felt the confidence and the confirmation in the spirit to stand boldy for the victorious gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, I find that gentleness and boldness (combined with consideration for the struggles of others who must overturn their assumptions and traditions to embrace the teaching of the Holy Spirit--even as I struggled) releases the beautiful feet of those who run upon the high places proclaiming GOOD NEWS.
Thanks for sharing that eaglesway. Just like you, nothing brings me greater joy than to bring the really good news to others! :bigGrin:
#184 – CHRIST GLORIFIED IN THE SALVATION AND RESTORATION OF ALL MANKIND – Francis Leicester
"But the Scripture which crowns all, and the last which I shall bring into proof, is Revelation 5:13. Here all creation is at Christ's feet, and that not with tears in their eyes, or petitions in their hands, not with crying or supplications or weeping because things were hidden and kept secret; but with joy in their hearts, and praises in their mouths; with melody on their lips, and hallelujahs on their tongues; with looks and countenances full of satisfaction and delight; and their faces, instead of gathering blackness, turning into paleness, or being covered with shame and confusion (as once was the case with some of them) they all now shine as the sun, replete with light, life and love, full of ecstasy and rapture. And that because the book written within and on the backside, and sealed with seven seals, is now opened and unsealed, and all things revealed and explained: their own cases particularly unfolded to their view, with all the ways and means their loving Saviour took to bring them to the situation they are now in, with other miracles of grace and love.
Where then there is universal praise and thanksgiving, universal harmony and love, and both heaven and earth sounding and resounding acclamations of joy and peace, there must be universal salvation."
the coup de grace
Quote from: eaglesway on January 23, 2012, 06:03:44 PM
the coup de grace
And to think, eaglesway, our imaginations are probably
grossly underestimating how gloriously God will achieve universal transformation. :bigGrin:
#185 – Anna Letitia Barbuald, widow of Rev. Rochemont Barbuald wrote
"Rochemont's favorite doctrine was the final salvation of all the human race. He preached many sermons on this doctrine, which he defended both in the pulpit and in conversation with zeal and enthusiasm, which his congregation and his friends cannot but well remember."
Anna further commented, "I think it would be desirable to separate from religion that idea of gloom, which in this country (England) has but too generally accompanied it.
No one who embraces the common idea of future endless torments, that sins committed against an infinite Being do therefore deserve infinite punishment, no one, I will venture to assert, can believe such tenants, and have them often in his thoughts, and yet be cheerful.
Surely this age (the eighteenth century) which has demolished dungeons, rejected torture, and given so fair a prospect of abolishing the iniquity of the slave trade, cannot long retain among its articles of belief, the gloomy perplexities of Calvinism, and the heart-withering perspective of cruel and never-ending punishments."
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 24, 2012, 01:55:50 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 23, 2012, 06:03:44 PM
the coup de grace
And to think, eaglesway, our imaginations are probably grossly underestimating how gloriously God will achieve universal transformation. :bigGrin:
Exceedingly above and beyond all we could ask or think :reachout: :boydance: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :bgdance:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 24, 2012, 08:17:46 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 24, 2012, 01:55:50 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 23, 2012, 06:03:44 PM
the coup de grace
And to think, eaglesway, our imaginations are probably grossly underestimating how gloriously God will achieve universal transformation. :bigGrin:
Exceedingly above and beyond all we could ask or think :reachout: :boydance: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :bgdance:
#186 – AN ESSAY ON UNIVERSAL REDEMPTION; TENDING TO PROVE THAT THE GENERAL SENSE OF SCRIPTURE FAVORS THE OPINION OF THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND. – Rev. John Brown (eighteenth century)
In UNIVERSALIST MISCELLANY, commenting on that work, William Vidler wrote, "He considers the genuine import of the words and phrases which are though to prove the endless duration of punishment, which he contends do not necessarily bear that sense, and he touches upon the usual topics of argument by which universalism has been defended."
#187 – CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 26, 2012, 04:34:18 PM
#187 – CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
Beautiful but, I would prefer to say the words translated eternal, forever, everlasting, etc, generally signify indefinite periods of duration(sometimes just, along way back or forward; 1)sometimes just, an indefinite period that is determined by the completion of its purpose; 2)sometimes forward never having no end; 3)sometimes totally transcending time forward, backward, around and throughout). They all come from OLAM I think, a word always defined in part by context and the subject upon which it is focused. Sometimes olam/aionos does mean forever, eternal or everlasting. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 27, 2012, 02:09:31 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 26, 2012, 04:34:18 PM
#187 – CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
Beautiful but, I would prefer to say the words translated eternal, forever, everlasting, etc, generally signify indefinite periods of duration(sometimes just, along way back or forward; 1)sometimes just, an indefinite period that is determined by the completion of its purpose; 2)sometimes forward never having no end; 3)sometimes totally transcending time forward, backward, around and throughout). They all come from OLAM I think, a word always defined in part by context and the subject upon which it is focused. Sometimes olam/aionos does mean forever, eternal or everlasting. :2c:
eaglesway, I like this explanation by Dean Hough
"In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).".
Dean Hough
#188 – About Dr. Joseph Priestly, Thomas Whittimore writes in THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM
"He believed that God's punishment will not be administered with the slightest tincture of revenge, but as a necessary means of qualifying the sinner for a better state of existence, which his present propensities disqualify him from enjoying. It is not the effect of anger in an irritated and avenging tyrant as the abominable tenets of orthodoxy would induce us to think of the Deity, but it is the medicine administered for our good by the Physician of our souls. Nor have we any reason to believe that it is greater in degree, or longer in duration than is necessary to produce the beneficial effect for which it is inflicted.
It was a constant source of great consolation to him, that all thing exist and move on harmoniously to produce universal good by Divine appointment and direction."
#189 – In an introduction to his translation of the New Testament, Nathaniel Scarlett wrote
"It has been a means of propagating the doctrine of endless damnation, which states that God will kindle a fire, and so constantly supply it with combustible matter, brimstone, by His all creating power, as to endure as long as He Himself shall exist; and that the subjects of future punishment, being raised incorruptible and indissoluble, shall for the same period endure burning in the lake of fire, God having no end in view but the endless misery of His creatures.
The editor hopes the translation he has given will help to remove so degrading an idea of God, Who is love; and although He will afflict the wicked in the lake of fire and brimstone; yet He has a great and grand design in so doing – punishment being a means to accomplish an end, and not the end itself."
#190 – In a letter to a friend, James Edmands (nineteenth century) wrote
"The death of Christ ensured the restoration of all as a result. Men are now in the hands of a Mediator, Who deals with them as rational and accountable beings, and afflicts, whether here or hereafter, only in order to bring them to a deep sense of their own folly, and then restores them to His favor. Those who love and believe in Him in this life, are the first fruits, and those who do not will be the harvest or ingathering."
#191 – Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
"God's justice is, of itself, nothing but goodness; for it rewards the virtuous with blessings, and conduces to the improvement of the sinful. God's punishment is, in its operation, like medicine: it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.
The necessary chastisements of the Great Judge, Who regards all with benignity, will make mankind grieve for their sins and imperfections, and advance them through the various states of discipline to perfection. Even God's wrath is full of benevolence towards the human race; for whose sake the Word of God was made man. The chastisements of God are always salutary and instructive, leading to amendment."
#192 – Origen Adamantius (185- 254 A.D.)
"The end and consummation of the world will take place when all the wicked shall be subjected to punishments. How long each one shall suffer God only knows. The great variety of characters and different orders of beings which now exist, will, through the goodness of God, their subjection to Jesus Christ, and the unity of the Holy Spirit, be finally restored. As the sick must be cured by harsh medicines, so God administers for the purpose of amendatation.
Our God is a consuming fire. He shall come as a refiner's fire, to purify rational nature from the alloy of wickedness. Rivers of fire are said to go forth before the face of God for the purpose of consuming whatever of evil is admixed with the soul. (Dan. 7:10).
We assert that the Word, Who is the Wisdom of God, shall bring together all intelligent creatures, and convert them to His own perfection. We deny that of all the vices of the soul, there is any which the supreme Word cannot cure. For the Word is more powerful than all the diseases of the soul; and He applies His remedies to each one, according to the pleasure of God. And the consummation of all things will be the extinction of sin.
This may not, indeed, take place with mankind in the present life, but be accomplished after they shall have been liberated from the body."
#193 – AGAINST THE MANICHEANS - Titus of Bostra (written 364 A.D)
"The abyss of hell is indeed the place of torment; but it is not eternal. The punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect upon transgressors; for they are inflicted, not to preserve them in their wickedness, but to make them cease from their wickedness."
#194 – Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself."
There is but one fire. It is the light of God, which is His love. Children of the Day bask in it, bathe in it, rejoice in it. Children of the darkness writhe in it, as it forces their secrets up from the depths to the surface, where they may be slain, like Leviathan, by the flames that fill His eyes, and the sword that comes from His mouth- His face(countenance,presence) -being as the "sun shining in its strength". "Nothing is hidden that shall not be brought to light". "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness can not overcome it".
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
#195 – Didymus, the blind, of Alexandria (313-398 A.D.)
"As mankind, by being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in the fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all, so the superior rational intelligences, the angels, will be restored to obedience by correction.
The blasphemy which shall not be forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come, may have been the blinded Jews; and their punishment, that which came upon them when they were delivered up to the Romans, and scattered over the whole earth. They will be pursued with vengeance from the Lord, not for a short period only, but for the whole future age, so that they shall be captives and fugitives, wandering among all nations, and possessing neither city nor country. Nevertheless, as God Who overthrew them is naturally kind and compassionate, He hath still reserved for them a space for repentance."
#196 – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints.
#197 – AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued.
#198 – Theodorus of Mopsuestia (350-428 A.D.)
"All sins will be wiped away, because a true remission consists in the remission not of some sins but of all of them, as the blessed John said: "Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." This, however, will take place fully in the next world when after the resurrection we shall be immortal and when all the impulses of sins will cease. This is the reason why the blessed Paul also said: "If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised, and if Christ be not raised your faith is vain and ye are yet in your sins." He shows in this that in the future resurrection from the dead we are expecting complete abolition of sin.
"When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O grave, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?' The sting of death is sin, and the strength of the sin is the law." Then will truly take place the abolition of all these: of death, sin and corruption."
Quote from: eaglesway on February 03, 2012, 04:48:37 PM
There is but one fire. It is the light of God, which is His love. Children of the Day bask in it, bathe in it, rejoice in it. Children of the darkness writhe in it, as it forces their secrets up from the depths to the surface, where they may be slain, like Leviathan, by the flames that fill His eyes, and the sword that comes from His mouth- His face(countenance,presence) -being as the "sun shining in its strength". "Nothing is hidden that shall not be brought to light". "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness can not overcome it".
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Love this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!AMEN ! WELL SAID !!! :HeartThrob:
made me think of Isaish 33 ! love that chapter so much , made me see the God is a counsuming fire , so much more perfectly and His Spiritual sons of Glory are a Light /truth and Fire /Spirit they are very close indeed :icon_flower:
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
:bigGrin: I feel as if i hav stepped into a tIme machine :o) Nice post Rosie! HAHAHAHA
#199 - John Scottus Eriugena (810-877 A.D)
"There will be a conscious return (reditus) and merging of all beings into God. No souls (including the souls of animals) will be left out of this grand return. No one will be damned to suffer forever in hell or wither away into oblivion. There can only be a single destination for all: eternal salvation in God, the whole of humanity as in the image of God eventually to be restored to its divine exemplar.
The object of punishment is not the will of the individual himself, but the misdirection of the will, so the result of punishment is the final purification and redemption of all. Even the devils shall be saved. The ultimate goal is deification, theosis or resumption into the divine being, when the individual soul is raised to a full knowledge of God, and where knowing and being are one."
#200 – THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – Jeremiah White (1613-72 A.D)
"God's love demands that all punishment be reformative, Divine punishment is both good in itself, because everything that God does is good, and good for those being punished, because God loves His creation"
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 02, 2012, 02:42:15 PM
#199 - John Scottus Eriugena (810-877 A.D)
"There will be a conscious return (reditus) and merging of all beings into God. No souls (including the souls of animals) will be left out of this grand return. No one will be damned to suffer forever in hell or wither away into oblivion. There can only be a single destination for all: eternal salvation in God, the whole of humanity as in the image of God eventually to be restored to its divine exemplar.
The object of punishment is not the will of the individual himself, but the misdirection of the will, so the result of punishment is the final purification and redemption of all. Even the devils shall be saved. The ultimate goal is deification, theosis or resumption into the divine being, when the individual soul is raised to a full knowledge of God, and where knowing and being are one."
wow, i love this one. i have been saying this for years, but he said it so succinctly! :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 04, 2012, 05:51:30 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 02, 2012, 02:42:15 PM
#199 - John Scottus Eriugena (810-877 A.D)
"There will be a conscious return (reditus) and merging of all beings into God. No souls (including the souls of animals) will be left out of this grand return. No one will be damned to suffer forever in hell or wither away into oblivion. There can only be a single destination for all: eternal salvation in God, the whole of humanity as in the image of God eventually to be restored to its divine exemplar.
The object of punishment is not the will of the individual himself, but the misdirection of the will, so the result of punishment is the final purification and redemption of all. Even the devils shall be saved. The ultimate goal is deification, theosis or resumption into the divine being, when the individual soul is raised to a full knowledge of God, and where knowing and being are one."
wow, i love this one. i have been saying this for years, but he said it so succinctly! :o)
Amen!
#201 – BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
"Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration, showing that Christian universalism, or ultimate reconciliation is the true Biblical doctrine."
Arguably, this is the most helpful link on the internet for people who want to believe that the Bible, (literally, not interpretively) translated, teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
#202 - AIÓN – AIÓNIOS – ("shown to denote limited duration") John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
The etymology of the Greek word aionios does not contain the meaning of everlasting.
"THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
#203 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Regarding the words translated "forever and ever."
"There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, for "the holies of the holies" - similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.
As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5."
PREACHING TO THE CHOIR :laughing7:
#204 – A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
"Hell is a myth! Jesus Christ saves all mankind. That is the growing view of Bible scholars, translators and Bible publishers. Hell is leaving the pages of many Bible translations.
Bible scholars and church historians are acknowledging that early Christians were taught by Jesus and the apostles that ALL mankind would ultimately be saved. Discover how the heathen concept of Hell crept into the church and then on to the pages of many Bible translations.
Tentmaker Ministries website contains hundreds of articles and books explaining how this happened and its horrible effect on mankind. We also make available many other resources for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.
Experience your heavenly Father's unfailing love for you. Be set free from the fear that you or a loved one may be eternally damned to Hell."
Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 05, 2012, 01:19:56 PM
PREACHING TO THE CHOIR :laughing7:
#204 – A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
AND
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
Maybe you can add those link on the other 79 forums to promote those sites too?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 05, 2012, 01:48:36 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 05, 2012, 01:19:56 PM
PREACHING TO THE CHOIR :laughing7:
#204 – A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
AND
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
Maybe you can add those link on the other 79 forums to promote those sites too?
WILL DO
#205 - UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
An excellent website expounding Christian Biblical Universalism
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #1
Sooner or later "God will have all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #2
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Rodger,
I found a forum you are not posting on (I think).
http://www.praize.com/forums/
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 01:42:28 PM
Rodger,
I found a forum you are not posting on (I think).
http://www.praize.com/forums/
I just signed up and started my snippets thread.
Thanks for the heads up.
I guess I'll find out soon enough how UR friendly they are. :-)
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 09, 2012, 02:40:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 01:42:28 PM
Rodger,
I found a forum you are not posting on (I think).
http://www.praize.com/forums/
I just signed up and started my snippets thread.
Thanks for the heads up.
I guess I'll find out soon enough how UR friendly they are. :-)
It's ok. I've just been reading part of a fairly lenghty thread started by an UR guy and sofar he isn't even called a heretic.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 03:01:27 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 09, 2012, 02:40:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 01:42:28 PM
Rodger,
I found a forum you are not posting on (I think).
http://www.praize.com/forums/
I just signed up and started my snippets thread.
Thanks for the heads up.
I guess I'll find out soon enough how UR friendly they are. :-)
It's ok. I've just been reading part of a fairly lenghty thread started by an UR guy and sofar he isn't even called a heretic.
And I just received a warm personal welcome message from the administrator Chaplain Dave.
So I think my snippets will be allowed, and maybe even appreciated. :-)
Well Rodger if you were a young hansom lady I would say: Who can resist your light!
But I won't because then people start to talk funny about me :-)
Anyway glad I found one for you.
If you have your site list on file could you please post it here.
Perhaps (likely) there is a UR site on it that I don't know about.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 06:06:54 PM
Well Rodger if you were a young hansom lady I would say: Who can resist your light!
But I won't because then people start to talk funny about me :-)
Anyway glad I found one for you.
If you have your site list on file could you please post it here.
Perhaps (likely) there is a UR site on it that I don't know about.
I don't have a site list of where I am posting my snippets, but I do have this list that I have accumulated.
WEBSITES (SOME OF THEM WITH MANY LINKS) THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE CORRECTLY (LITERALLY, NOT INTERPRETIVELY) TRANSLATED TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION, NOT ETERNAL TORMENT, OR EVEN ANNIHILATION
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
(If the above link won't open for you, click on the word "impatient")
http://www.saviourofall.org
http://www.concordant.org/
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://www.sigler.org/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html
http://www.godfire.net/paris/hellnotforever.html
http://hellbusters.8m.com/mbpindex.htm
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/wjanse/welcome.htm
http://www.savior-of-all.com/
http://bible-truths.com
http://hellbusters.8m.com/mbpperpetuates.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/24.html
http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/
http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html
http://godfire.net/index.html
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/death.htm
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html
http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/
http://www.godslastcall.org/rev21-22.html
http://www.thenewcreation.com/
http://godfire.net/eby
http://hellbusters.8m.com/eby.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
http://www.sigler.org/kingdom/links.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
http://godskingdomministries.org/free_will.htm
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/The%20Gobbledygook%20Gospel.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html
http://bible-truths.com/part8.htm
http://www.godfire.net/elwin.html
http://www.godfire.net/reasons.html
http://www.godfire.net/FreeWill.html
http://www.godfire.net/eby.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/answers.html
http://www.gospelogic.com/
http://www.promiseed.com
http://sigler.org/kingdom/
http://www.sigler.org/keith/
http://www.godfire.net/paris/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/jgindex.html
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/
http://www.geocities.com/michaelgerardburke/index.html
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hellfactor/indexhf.htm
http://greater-emmanuel.org
http://www.hlom.org/fellowship.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Call_Of_The_Kingdom/
http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/
http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/recon-7.htm
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/
http://www.goodnewsinc.net/
http://www.twsj.ws/news.php
http://www.greenwood.net/~cdevans
http://greater-emmanuel.org/insights.html
http://www.geocities.com/tws490/
http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/
http://www.haroldlovelace.com/
http://p199.ezboard.com/bjesusthelightoftheworld
http://www.greenwood.net:80/~cdevans/SR.htm
http://www.biblicaluniversalist.bravehost.com/
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.presence.tv/cms/index.php
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id2.html
http://www.sigler.org/eby/savior_of_the_word_series.htm
http://www.haroldlovelace.com/
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/
http://www.notjustnotes.ws/index.htm
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/jgindex.html
http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/
http://www.sigler.org/sirius8/rpnavbar.html
http://www.godfire.net/rayknight/
http://martinzender.com/zenderature.htm
http://thegloryrd.com
http://www.urincluded2.com/
http://www.christaslife.org/
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id2.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/links.html
http://www.kingdomstudy.com/OtherKingdomLinks.html
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html
http://frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/uniquotes.htm
http://boldgrace.com/
http://biblicaluniversalist.bravehost.com/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/christa.html (scroll down to CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM section)
http://harvestherald.com/thirtyquestions.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
http://www.forgivenforever.org/
http://www.godoftheages.com/
http://not1lost.blogspot.com/2008/09/ages-lasting-correction.html
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.tlchrist.info/universl.htm
http://www.bible-truths.com/
http://www.newbeginningministries.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/
http://frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
http://www.martinzender.com:80/
http://knowingtodaysgod.com/
http://godfire.net/kennedy/
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/index.html
http://thegloryrd.com:80/
http://allmadealive.com/quotes.php
www.GraceEvangel.org
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/index.html
http://wisefire.tv/
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/universalism-what-is-it-what-isnt-it.html
http://www.martinzender.com/zenderature.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/links.html
http://newlifeinternational.faithweb.com/OtherKingdomLinks.html
http://scaredofhell.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/links.html
http://www.hetbestenieuws.nl/links.htm
http://home.earthlink.net:80/~btodd2/freewillnote.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/punishment.html
http://crossfaithministry.org/universalism.html
http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm
http://sigler.org/mckay/sovereignty.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/evil.htm
http://www.thomastalbott.com/
http://jesusreligion.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/universalrestitu00ston
http://www.thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence...
http://harmony-church.net/Correct.htm
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/other%20docs.htm
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
http://www.christianuniversalist.org/
http://haroldlovelace.com/
http://www.crossandthrone.com/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://www.mercifultruth.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Call_Of_The_Kingdom/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/bsn.htm
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/default.cfm
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/links.htm
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.heavenandhellpage.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/kg/kg.html
http://www.savioroftheworld.net/
http://www.destinedforsalvation.org/
http://www.universalist-herald.net/1BkRev.html
http://www.universalistfriends.org/quf2009.html
http://godfire.net/links.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/restoration.htm
http://www.studentoftheword.com/StudiesoftheWord.html
http://www.godfire.net/index.html
http://www.einet.net/directory/974143/Universalism.htm
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/book_list.cfm
http://absolute-reconciliation.org/
http://completerestorationinchrist.org/
http://www.gospelrevolution.com/
http://thegloryrd.com/
http://perfectgrace.org/
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/other%20docs.htm
http://euniversalism.forum5.com/index.php
http://www.biblicaluniversalism.com/posting1.htm
http://www.junkmaster.com/Ministry/cupage1.htm
http://antinomianuniversalism.com/index.php
http://www.biblicaluniversalist.bravehost.com/
http://ukapologetics.net/1inclusivism.htm
http://www.christianheretic.com/hell
http://dir.crossmap.com/Science_and_Social_Science/Theology/Universalism
http://www.christianspiritualism.org/articles/everlastingaionios.htm
http://www.graceevangel.org/
http://godquest.org/links.htm
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
http://godfire.net/paris/
http://www.thomastalbott.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/universalrestitu00ston
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/
http://www.studentoftheword.com/index.html
http://www.godfire.net/links.html
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.christianuniversalism.info/
http://www.godsplanforall.com/calvinismarminianismanduniversalism
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.restoreallthings.org/
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/BibleThreatsExplnd2.htm
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d020806.htm
https://www.robbell.com/lovewins/
http://fireandrose.blogspot.com/2006/08/why-i-am-universalist-dogmatic-sketch.html
http://perfectgrace.org/
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
http://www.mercifultruth.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/kg/kg.html
http://www.christian-universalism.com/
http://healingspiritualterrorism.com/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hell.htm
http://www.urqa.com/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hellfactor/indexhf.htm
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33973
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/index.cfm
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/universalism-what-is-it-what-isnt-it.html
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
http://sigler.org/mckay/etpunish.htm
http://www.overcomers.ca/
http://www.biblicaluniversalism.org/
http://www.urqa.com/
http://www.dialoguewith.us/
http://bible-truths.com/part6.htm
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christian-universalism/
http://www.truth.info/future/universalism.htm
http://www.marcspeed.org/hellisamistranslation.cfm
http://endlesshellended.com/
http://www.urqa.com/
http://www.tlchrist.info/universl.htm
http://lovewins.us/
http://evangelicaluniversalism.org/
http://biblicaluniversalism.org/
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/
http://sigler.org/slagle/
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/topics.htm
http://www.tsdowntown.com/
http://www.christianuniversalism.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rubyybur/ETERNAL_HELL_NO.htm
http://www.godshew.org/index.htm
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/erasing-hell.html
http://www.truth.info/future/universalism.htm
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Websites.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~rubyybur/FOR%20EVER%20in%2065%20verses%20NT%204columns.pdf
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 03:01:27 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 09, 2012, 02:40:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 01:42:28 PM
Rodger,
I found a forum you are not posting on (I think).
http://www.praize.com/forums/
I just signed up and started my snippets thread.
Thanks for the heads up.
I guess I'll find out soon enough how UR friendly they are. :-)
It's ok. I've just been reading part of a fairly lenghty thread started by an UR guy and so far he isn't even called a heretic.
I spoke too soon WhiteWings.
The other mod Sarah wants me to post my snippest
only in a blog.
Unless I am mistaken, blogs are hardly ever opened and read so I don't think I will bother using the time for that.
Can you give me the url of the thread started by a UR guy?
It might be a better use of my time if I add something to his thread instead.
Thanks
That thread is closed Rodger: http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/%22Christian_Double_Talk%22_P73698/
My guess is they 'advised' a blog because they might have mistunderstood you by assuming you start a new thread every day.
What you do here on TM is pretty much a blog too. You posted 100s snippets in one thread.
Maybe you can explain you intend to post in just one thread. Depending on their answer you make your final choice.
Just a thought.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #3
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is a basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control, some sooner, the rest later.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #4
ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF
ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also are smart enough to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone suffer eternal torment without any say in the matter, except the few He rescues by His irresistible grace.
Robert Southy (1774 -1843) wrote, "In the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, and so impious as Calvinism."
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will include the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
Quote fro Roger-
CALVINIST ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
wow, so well put. so ironic, sardonic.......so unbelievably unlike our God......so obvious.......so sad that anyone believes such a thing. Peace, John
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #5
A.E. KNOCH
One of the great Christian Biblical Universalist of the last century was A.E. Knoch.
My attitude towards the frequent threats of believers in eternal torment is summed up beautifully by his response.
An eternal torment critic said "Mr. Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace. It is only natural for one who thinks Him capable of tormenting His own creatures eternally, to seek to follow His example, and torture His servants here and now. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. We recall with joy and satisfaction the great truth that, by God's grace, it is impossible for you to enter into condemnation, no matter how much you may offend Him (Rom.8:1) and the still greater truth that we are saved for grace (Eph.2:8). While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." A.E. Knoch
That was beautiful and almost brought me to tears.
Here was a man who truly knew the Father. :HeartThrob:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #6
AION -- AIONIOS
In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God's plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words ("ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world.") to translate this one word.
And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as "ages."
Talk about confusion compounded!
Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God's truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God's glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
The etymology of the Greek word aionios does not contain the meaning of everlasting.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #7
ALL IN ALL – A.E. Knoch
A.E. Knoch's book ALL IN ALL
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of A.E Knoch's ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments he used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
Regarding the book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch. In spite of the claim that there are contradictions in it, and in spite of "cult-buster" Don Hewey's other attempts to discredit it, (arguments to which Richard Condon has responded), ALL IN ALL remains, in my opinion, one of the best of all the many books that I have read in support of the Bible teaching universal transformation.
Don Hewey is a believer in the inspiration of the King James Version. When he accuses A.E. Knoch of "contradicting the Bible," in many cases what he really means is that A.E. Knoch contradicts the KJV, because the Concordant Translation does not rely on the Received Text from which the KJV was translated. Don Hewey therefore also attacks the RSV, the NIV, and other modern translations. For this reason much of what Don writes just doesn't make any sense.
As far as Knoch calling the life that Lazarus will be raised to as it being eonian and unending, it is both. Lazarus will have unending life and that life will allow him to live through the oncoming eons which is called '"eonian life."
But even if Don Hewey's criticisms had any merit, (and Richard Condon proves they don't), they would still not detract from the fact that this book proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments he used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/
Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ's cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God's purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). "In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated "forever" and "everlasting" and "never" are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God's grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
ALL IN ALL can be read on the internet here
Copy and paste the following url into the server address bar or click on
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 10:50:47 PM
That thread is closed Rodger: http://www.praize.com/forums/Apologetics_C2/Christian_Debates_F17/%22Christian_Double_Talk%22_P73698/
My guess is they 'advised' a blog because they might have mistunderstood you by assuming you start a new thread every day.
What you do here on TM is pretty much a blog too. You posted 100s snippets in one thread.
Maybe you can explain you intend to post in just one thread. Depending on their answer you make your final choice.
Just a thought.
Well WhiteWings, I got banned.
The mod Sarah sent me a PM saying that she didn't realize at first that I am a UR.
And she says that since I don't believe the Bible she has banned me, but she says she hopes I will soon find "the real Jesus Christ," Of course she means the "Jesus" who will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
In my reply, I gave her this link
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
I doubt I will hear back from her.
WhiteWings, let me know if you find another forum where I can try posting my snippets.
Thanks
Jesus got banned for telling the truth too Rodger; so you are in good company.
At least to were able to post a few snippets I hope. Or were they deleted?
Still weird that Mark guy was allowed to post for that long.
Quote from: lomarah on June 11, 2012, 02:00:25 PM
That was beautiful and almost brought me to tears.
Here was a man who truly knew the Father. :HeartThrob:
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #8
ARGUMENTS
I believe that the Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 73 years old now.
People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/
#8 - THE NATURE, THE CHARACTER OF CHRISTIAN PRAYER - JOHN WESLEY HANSON
Every human being is under perpetual obligation to pray to God as the
Father of all souls, to bring in His kingdom, fulfill His will and
deliver from evil, and save from sin the whole human family; and that
we are commanded to pray for this,—universal salvation—is evident from
the language of the Apostle Paul in I Timothy 2:1-4:
"I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and
all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty; for this is good and acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come
unto the knowledge of the truth."
Thus God desires all men to be saved, and you and I and all men are
commanded therefore, to pray that all men may be saved. God does this.
This prayer proceeds from the divine heart all the time. "Prayer is
the soul's sincere desire uttered or unexpressed." All men must, when
they follow the instincts of their nature, pray for the salvation of
all men...
But the second feature in prayer is, that men, "whatsoever they ask
for of God, shall pray in faith, nothing doubting.
I Timothy 2: 8:—"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting
up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."
It is wicked to pray for anything to God, unless we pray in faith,
unless in our heart of hearts we believe our hopes will be answered. A
faithless prayer is an abomination in the sight of God; hence the
apostle says in Romans 14:23:—"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Now, then, a Christian must pray for universal salvation; if he does
not, he does not offer Christian prayer; and if a man thus prays, but
believes that his prayer will not be answered, then he cannot offer
Christian prayer. Genuine Christian prayer comprehends the final
salvation of all men, and as it is necessary to give it in full faith,
nothing doubting, it demonstrates the final salvation of all, for
certainly God would not command his children to pray for a thing and
pray without doubting, unless in the divine plan that were to be the
result. Hence Paul appeals to this ground of faith in I Timothy 2:5-6:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due
time."
#9 - In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying
(v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth,
shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which
draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is
dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is
moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which
cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the
outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act
as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to
do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into
so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will
and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever
the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due
time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John
12:32). James Coram http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
Excellent. Beautiful. Wondermus!
#10 - Does God "offer" salvation to all, and it's up to each one to either
accept it or reject it?
First, of ourselves, none of us would accept it. So, we should receive
the clear Bible teaching that faith is a gift. Ro. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:6-10; Phil. 1:29.
Second, we know from Ro. 9 and other verses such as Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes.
2:13 and 3:2, that God does not choose to save all in this life.
Third, we know God wills all to be saved. Titus 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6.
Fourth, we know that all things are possible with God. Matt. 19:25,
26; Jeremiah 32:17.
Fifth, we know that Christ enlightens all, and draws all to Himself.
John 1:9; 12:32.
Sixth, we know God will reconcile all to Himself. 1 Cor. 15:20-28;
Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; Ro. 5:18, 19.
Therefore, seventh, we know that God grants salvation (faith,
repentance, and reconciliation) to all, for He is the Savior of all
mankind. Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Tim. 4:9-11
- Kenneth Larsen.
#10..... I don't kno.
A gift must be accepted, or it is not a gift. To be a gift, two free wills must be involved. A gift I cannot reject is not a gift.
As I see it- the paradigm is that God will win every free will He has given (imo, He has given evryone He created in His image a free will or they are not created in His image) into His love, and has known that and planned it so since the beginning. His love is so awesome, and so beautiful (as demonstrated upon the cross of Christ) that is will DRAW all men unto Him. If we reject it, as we all hav at one time or another, it will only be until the light finally breaks through the darkness in wavs of glory and we fall upon bended knee and confess with joyfully liberated lips that JESUS IS MESSIAH AND LORD!.....to the glory of God the Father.
The beauty of Jesus is that having complete freedom of will He chose to chose to humble himself and lay down his life- suffering the bitter pains of death for all creation, in order to set them free from futility into the GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD- which is simply the freedom of doing all things out of love.
Depends how one looks at it EW.
Your way which is similar to this. (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/conciliation-and-reconciliation/msg67180/#msg67180)
But OTOH the gift was Jesus "gave His only begotten Son". There is nothing you can do to turn back the events that took place nearly 2000 years ago. The last 3 years of Jesus' life was "the gift"
Missing the 2cent icon.....
#13 - DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larson
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan/Catholic-inherited ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2012, 08:16:38 PM
Depends how one looks at it EW.
Your way which is similar to this. (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/conciliation-and-reconciliation/msg67180/#msg67180)
But OTOH the gift was Jesus "gave His only begotten Son". There is nothing you can do to turn back the events that took place nearly 2000 years ago. The last 3 years of Jesus' life was "the gift"
Missing the 2cent icon.....
Definitely depends on how one looks at it. The coin has two sides to view, both elements of one full coin (and only half of two cents :o)
Cool post, Rodger.
Quote from: jabcat on June 18, 2012, 05:15:14 AM
Cool post, Rodger.
Thanks jabcat, but the link you gave will not open for me.
Does it open for anyone else?
Oh sorry, that link is just in my signature with every post. I didn't know it was a dead link now though. Thanks, I'll see what's up with it.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 18, 2012, 03:25:46 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2012, 08:16:38 PM
Depends how one looks at it EW.
Your way which is similar to this. (http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/conciliation-and-reconciliation/msg67180/#msg67180)
But OTOH the gift was Jesus "gave His only begotten Son". There is nothing you can do to turn back the events that took place nearly 2000 years ago. The last 3 years of Jesus' life was "the gift"
Missing the 2cent icon.....
Definitely depends on how one looks at it. The coin has two sides to view, both elements of one full coin (and only half of two cents :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 17, 2012, 07:14:12 PM
#10..... I don't kno.
A gift must be accepted, or it is not a gift. To be a gift, two free wills must be involved. A gift I cannot reject is not a gift.
Well EW you are wrong :-) :friendstu:
It's very odd but the only way to recieve the gift was by completly rejecting the gift (Jesus)....
And that's just what happened 2000 years ago. The leaders rejected Jesus so strongly they put Him to death. His death (the Lamb sacrifice) opened the parcel God sent to earth 33 years earlier. If the leaders had accepted Jesus the parcel would never have been opened.....
Yeah I know, it's an uncommon way to look at it... :Egyptdance2:
#14 - IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30. God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.
Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.
#15 - Questions
In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 19, 2012, 02:32:47 PM
#15 - Questions
In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
God gave by His own free will, free will that can overrule His free will.
Quote• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
His will is that we have free will.
Quote• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
If God is willing so, yes.
Quote• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
Tears vaporize instantly at 3000F
Quote• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
This is the only verse in which aion means age.
Quote• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
God is ifinite great so rebellion against Him requires ifinite harsh punishment.
Quote• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
A shepherd can save sheep eaten by wolves.
Quote• Why does God give up on people after death?
Honoring their free will.
Quote• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
God's ways are higher than ours.
Quote• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
All are restored to life. It's teh location that differs.
Quote• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
Again, obviously because people choose hell and He grands everybody that happyness.
Quote• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
Jesus didn't have that problem so we are to blame.
Quote• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
Taken out of context.
Quote• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
God is also just.
Quote• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
Happyness can only be fully understood if it can be compared to suffering.
:goodpost:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2012, 03:01:13 PM
His will is that we have free will.
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Rodger, I think you took my reply a tiny bit to serious :-)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2012, 03:39:04 PM
Rodger, I think you took my reply a tiny bit too seriously :-)
Probably did.
I do like Gerry and Preston's point of view though, don't you WhiteWings?
Points of view are exactly that- points. From different points we all see various aspects of the many faceted wisdom of God. The problem is, we become convinced that one point or another is the pre-eminent mount from which the truth can be understood.
Logic is a framework built around a point. The diamond has many points- we can disagree about which is the more prevalent point in the mind of God- we are usually all wrong.
The LOGOS is the totally enfolded mind of Christ, WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, WHO HAS BEEN HIS COUNSELOR.
We only know that ALL of the word of God is included in the mind of Christ.
From my limited point of view, it is not because He is strong enough- tho He certainly is. It is because He is BRIGHT enough to penetrate all darkness. He is LOVING ENOUGH to overturn all hate. He will force NO ONES HAND. That is the beauty of His love. He will WIN EVERY FREE WILL into harmony with His own pure light and love by the unalterable glory of His divine nature- the brightness of His being. In My Opinion, this is the glory of His plan which He made according to His kind intention, according to His desire that all men be saved, according to the counsel of Him who causes all things to work in accordance to His will.
My reason for stating this IS NOT TO CONTEST A POINT. It is so that on this site we can recognize that the SALVATION OF ALL does not depend on a particular point of view regarding certain less important THEOLOGICAL and LOGICAL systems of thought about how time works or whether the chicken precedes the egg.
It is dependent only upon the VERY NATURE OF WHO GOD IS and what He has said He is doing. Believers who come here from one POINT OF VIEW or the other should not feel that we are espousing EITHER point of view as a foundation for the SALVATION OF ALL. It is not necessary.
I believe every being has been given a totally free will, but that God has set the times, the ages, the kosmos to the tune of His love and all will be drawn into it until He is ALL IN ALL(Acts 17 24-28, 1Cor 15:22-28). This is (IMO) the glorious liberty of the sons of God into which the whole creation is being LIBERATED(Romans 8:16-23). For freedom Christ has set us free.
Someone else takes a more authoritarian view. God has pre-dertermined every event in every life and all will eventually bow the knee to Him because of it. OK ,God is love - I have no problem with that POINT OF VIEW.
Perhaps two sides of one coin, perhaps not- IT DOESNT MATTER beyond the scope of an intriguing conversation until someone begins to assert their view as being the "gleam on the tip of the spear of God's revelation".
WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, WHO HAS BEEN HIS COUNSELOR, WHO HAS GIVEN TO HIM THAT HE SHOULD REPAY... FOR FROM HIM AND THROUGH HIM AND TOO HIM ARE ALL THINGS -to whom be the glory throughout all ages and beyond.
Me, I love seeing through a glass darkly, it leaves so much more freedom of exploration.
Changing the subject - I think. :-)
#16 - Hannah Whitall Smith
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so.
Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race.
God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall.
There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
Hi Eaglesway:
re: Me, I love seeing through a glass darkly, it leaves so much more freedom of exploration.
Me too!!!
see new thread: Seeing through a glass darkly (it may take me a few minutes to put together some thoughts... thanks, I really appreciate your thoughts on POV, God bless, anna
A SNIPPET FROM A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
"We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called supreme goodness.
In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.
We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God's creatures miserable; and this is called badness.
Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures? No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close." 5
A SNIPPET FROM SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
"By insisting on an interpreted translation of a Greek word, would you have the vast majority of men damned to an everlasting torture in order that you may feel quite sure that your timid soul will sit and sing itself away in everlasting bliss?
The main object of this book is to encourage those who faintly trust "the larger hope" to commit themselves to it wholly and fearlessly by showing them that they have ample warrant for it in scriptures of the New Testament." 6
A SNIPPET FROM GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Sinners do not go away into everlasting punishment. They go into eonian correction. Thank God for the Concordant literal translation, which some in their blindness are condemning. When leaders in the church today condemn something I would be the first one to rush out and get it and examine it for myself. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth. It has never been that way and it is not now.
The unscriptural tradition assigning a limit beyond which Christ has no power to save the obstinate sinner has spread universally. It is worldwide. It claims that the will of man can successfully oppose the power and will of God. "God wills all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4). Let us follow our Lord in His denunciation of tradition that makes void the word of God. Let us revel in the full extent of Christ's work and God's victory for all mankind." 7
Men assign chains where God assigns liberation, men assign condemnation where God assigns reconciliation, men assign torment where God assigns correction, men assign destruction where God assigns restoration, men exalt man where God exalts transformation.
I have been posting this on Christian forums.
Maybe others would like to do that too.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #71
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief in universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3213148682308877255#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ABOUT THE AUTHOR - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/AboutAuthor.html
NEW SNIPPETS
#1. A snippet from Universalism the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian
Church During its First Five Hundred Years, by J. W. Hanson, 1899:
(Origen Adamantius)
"This greatest of all Christian apologists and exegetes was a distinctive Universalist. He could not have misunderstood or misinterpreted the teachings of his Master. The language of the New Testament was his mother tongue. He
derived the teachings of Christ from Christ himself in a direct line through his teacher Clement; and he placed the defense of Christianity on Universalist grounds.
When Celsus, in his "True Discourse", the first great assault on Christianity, objected to Christianity on the ground that it taught punishment by fire, Origen replied that the threatened fire possessed a disciplinary, purifying quality that will consume in the sinner whatever evil material it can find to consume....God will act the part....Origen says, "not like a cook but like a God who is a benefactor of those who stand in need of discipline of fire.""
#2. A snippet from Whatever Became of Melanie? (2005), pages 138-139, by
Allan Ernest Chevrier:
(Romans 5:18-21)
"Now what was the result of Adam's transgression? It was universal condemnation of all, without first consulting them or asking for their contribution. The result of Adam's disobedience was complete and universal in its scope and consequence, plunging each and every member of his race into sin and spiritual separation from God.
Now, just as Adam's sin had a direct, powerful, irresistible effect on the whole for evil, so the righteous act of Christ has a direct, powerful, irresistible effect on the whole for good. Just as one sin resulted in universal, real, actual condemnation, so the one act of righteousness performed by Christ, the second Adam, results in universal, real, actual justification, not just an opportunity to cast your lot in with Jesus, not just the offer of life, but the real, actual, powerful impartation of life! The real actual, powerful communication of righteousness! The plain language of the text allows for nothing less!"
#3. A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life.
Some come to Christ sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
#4 A snippet from The Inescapable Love of God, Pages 59, 60, by Thomas Talbott:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came
upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy
upon all (Romans 11:32).
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I
Corinthians 15:22).
In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal
statements, and in each case the first "all" seems to determine the
scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserts in Romans 5:18
that Christ's one act of righteousness leads to justification and life
for all, he evidently has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands
under the judgment of condemnation; when he insists in Romans 11:32
that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God
has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in, disobedience; and finally,
when he asserts in I Corinthians 15:22 that "all shall be made alive"
in Christ, he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam. The
grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it
only if you are prepared to reject what is right before your eyes."
Does "All" mean "All"?
http://hopebeyondhell.org/ (FAQ 4)
#5 - "Hippolytus (about A.D. 220) enumerates and comments on thirty-two
heresies, but universal restoration is not named among them. And yet, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen- then living- were everywhere regarded as the great teachers of the church, and their view of man's future destiny was generally prevalent, according to Augustine, Jerome and others. It could not then have been regarded as a "heresy" or Hippolytus would have named it.
What a force there is in fact that not one of those who wrote against the heresies of their times ever named universal salvation as one of them! Hippolytus mentions thirty-two.
Epiphanius wrote his Panarion and epitomizes it in his Anacephal'osis
or Recapitulation, but not one of the heresy-hunters includes our
faith in his maledictions. Could there be stronger evidence than this
fact that the doctrine was not then heretical?"
-A snippet from
Universalism the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During
its First Five Hundred Years, by J. W. Hanson, 1899
#6 - http://www.truth.info/future/universalism.htm
The subjection of all to Christ
What does God mean when He states that Christ can subject all to Himself? Philippians 3:21 tells us that this will be in accord with the transfiguration of the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory. This is further explained in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44: "Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body." Verse 28:
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also
shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All
in all."
So not only is Christ able to subject all to Himself; He WILL subject all to Himself. Once all are subjected to Christ, Christ will subject Himself to God, that God may be all in all. This is when Christ will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father- verse 24. Verses 25-27 show the intimate relationship between the subjection of all to Christ, and the abolishment of death. In verse 22 we are informed that the "all" encompasses the entirety of mankind. This is in perfect harmony with Phil. 3:21.
To further elucidate the theme,
Paul gives us the revelation of Romans 5:18, 19. Being constituted just (immortality/ vivification) is contrasted with being constituted sinners (the body of our humiliation). Just as all mankind were condemned through Adam's act, all mankind are justified through Christ's sacrifice. This is an essential and unavoidable part of Christ's achievement, "...For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8.
Never doubt that Christ and God are able to overcome Adam and Satan. Death
will be abolished in practice; it already has been in principle. The realization of this achievement is accomplished in phases, for there are three classes in view in
1 Cor. 15:20-28.
#7 A snippet from The Outcome of Infinite Grace
Death Swallowed Up in Victory
By Dr. Loyal Hurley:
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8,9). Why do these verses follow immediately the statement, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"?
And why do these verses begin with the word "for"? The word "for" shows a relationship between what precedes and what follows. In the ages to come, He will demonstrate His grace, for He has already shown it to us, His church, whom He will use as the demonstration.
No member of the church deserves to be saved by grace. Not one thing can we claim that has any merit in it. Some will say that at least our faith is our own. "For by grace are ye saved through faith"--and surely the faith is ours. But Paul will not have it so, for he adds, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Yes, God gives to us our faith, "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3). And He gives it to us through "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). Not only does He give us grace: He gives us the faith to receive it. Otherwise we would still be in stubbornness or unbelief. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom.11:32).
So God chooses a few undeserving sinners in this age through whom He will demonstrate His grace to other undeserving sinners, "in the ages to come." And the demonstration will be convincing, too. It will accomplish what God intends that it shall accomplish: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph.1:10)."
Awesome!
#8 - THE NATURE, THE CHARACTER OF CHRISTIAN PRAYER - JOHN WESLEY HANSON
Every human being is under perpetual obligation to pray to God as the Father of all souls, to bring in His kingdom, fulfill His will and deliver from evil, and save from sin the whole human family; and that we are commanded to pray for this,—universal salvation—is evident from the language of the Apostle Paul in I Timothy 2:1-4: "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty; for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Thus God desires all men to be saved, and you and I and all men are commanded therefore, to pray that all men may be saved. God does this. This prayer proceeds from the divine heart all the time. "Prayer is the soul's sincere desire uttered or unexpressed." All men must, when they follow the instincts of their nature, pray for the salvation of all men...
But the second feature in prayer is, that men, "whatsoever they ask for of God, shall pray in faith, nothing doubting. I Timothy 2: 8:—"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." It is wicked to pray for anything to God, unless we pray in faith, unless in our heart of hearts we believe our hopes will be answered. A faithless prayer is an abomination in the sight of God; hence the apostle says in Romans 14:23:—"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Now, then, a Christian must pray for universal salvation; if he does not, he does not offer Christian prayer; and if a man thus prays, but believes that his prayer will not be answered, then he cannot offer Christian prayer. Genuine Christian prayer comprehends the final salvation of all men, and as it is necessary to give it in full faith, nothing doubting, it demonstrates the final salvation of all, for certainly God would not command his children to pray for a thing and pray without doubting, unless in the divine plan that were to be the result. Hence Paul appeals to this ground of faith in I Timothy 2:5-6: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
#9 - In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will. Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). - James Coram http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a
It would be good to answer this question:
When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
#10 - Does God "offer" salvation to all, and it's up to each one to either
accept it or reject it?
First, of ourselves, none of us would accept it. So, we should receive the clear Bible teaching that the motivation to actually exercise effectual saving faith is a gift. Ro. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:6-10; Phil. 1:29.
Second, we know from Ro. 9 and other verses such as Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13 and 3:2, that God does not choose to save all in this life.
Third, we know God wills all to be saved. Titus 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6.
Fourth, we know that all things are possible with God. Matt. 19:25, 26; Jeremiah 32:17.
Fifth, we know that Christ enlightens all, and draws all to Himself. John 1:9; 12:32.
Sixth, we know God will reconcile all to Himself. 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; Ro. 5:18, 19.
Therefore, seventh, we know that God grants salvation (faith, repentance, and reconciliation) to all, for He is the Savior of all mankind. Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Tim. 4:9-11.
- Kenneth Larsen.
For freedom Christ has set us free. We are predestined according to the foreknowledge of God. I personally believe it is Christ & Him Crucified that is drawing all men unto Him. Christ & Him Crucified is the superlative moment of all the ages, the seed from which all creation burst forth, the Logos through which God has made Himself known to all creation. The absolute DAWN. For this reason Paul said, I am determined to know NOTHING ELSE AMONG YOU, but Christ and Him crucified.
If I Be Lifted Up I Will Draw All Men Unto Me.
When one recognizes the sublime perfection of this sacrifice. The absolute essence of I AM THAT I AM revealed in this act towards His beloved creation, there is no longer any need to over-define the method or the cause of our salvation. Sheer grace. Infinite forgiveness. All-consuming love. Whether one believes they were dragged or whether one believes they were WON by a revelation of divine love hardly matters. In the end, Love Wins.
In the beginning the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep (the state of the sons of disobedience, free to shake their fists at God)
The Spirit hovered over the waters (the Holy Spirit is in the world to convict men of sin and righteousness and to teach all truth among those who believe- the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy- Christ & Him Crucified)
The GOD SAID let their be light! And the Day was divided from the Night.( For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.) New creation....Behold I make all things new.
(2Co 4:6)
The light that separates is CHRIST & HIM CRUCIFIED- the purest essence of all that God has done. When this light breaks through it CONVERTS THE SOUL and RENEWS THE SPIRIT.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
(Php 2:5-13)
Thanks for sharing that eaglesway.
#11 - "Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.
This basic truth is much more forcibly revealed later on in connection with the call of the nations. We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace.
He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains."
-Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
(http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC04_John.htm)
#12 - TENTMAKER MINISTRY WEBSITE ARCHIVES
INTERESTING READING THAT URS WILL ENJOY
If the link doesn't open up, click on the word "impatient"
January 15, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19980115040606/http://www.tentmaker.org/
December 1, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19981201194938/http://www.tentmaker.org/
June 10, 2000:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000610020831/http://www.tentmaker.org/
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 14, 2012, 02:21:16 PM
#12 - TENTMAKER MINISTRY WEBSITE ARCHIVES
INTERESTING READING THAT URS WILL ENJOY
If the link doesn't open up, click on the word "impatient"
January 15, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19980115040606/http://www.tentmaker.org/
December 1, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19981201194938/http://www.tentmaker.org/
June 10, 2000:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000610020831/http://www.tentmaker.org/
I love the picture of Jesus on the Tree over the world in the first link
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 13, 2012, 01:44:17 PM
Thanks for sharing that eaglesway.
#11 - "Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.
This basic truth is much more forcibly revealed later on in connection with the call of the nations. We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace.
He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains."
-Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
(http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC04_John.htm)
In my opinion :o) these statements reveal only one side of the coin and are not the full truth- also including some theoretical theology(the disruption theory) that is perhaps true but certainly not something clearly demonstratable through the scriptures. I do not propose free will as an absolute foundation, and I try to couch my words in maybes and sortas an 2 cents etc ad infinitum- but I do definitely believe there is an important part of the whole counsel of God that flows around His creating man in His own image- a free morally independent creative being. In His plan He has set eternity in our hearts, and only in His love will we find that eternity- leading all inexoriably to Christ Crucified. This is of course my perspective. I find on this site tho, that those who propose that God has not in fact given man a free will on any signifigant level, teach it as a matter of fact, and as if it is a prerequisite to understanding the salvation of all. This I do, lovingly but emphatically disagree with. It is not at all necessary to believe that God has chosen for us His love- or to believe, alternatively, that His love will eventually convince us all to make that choice and "win us". It will never be as clear as that on this side of the veil. All we need to know is that His grace has made ample provision for the salvation of all and that all will eventually recieve it.
Glory to God for that.
Thank you eaglesway for expressing your point of view.
On a different subject ---
#13 - DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
3. Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
#14 - IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30.
God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.
Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.
#15 - Questions
In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility.
#16 - Hannah Whitall Smith
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so.
Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him."
And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race.
God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations.
If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall.
There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created.
My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
#17 - RAY PRINZING COMBO (worth repeating)
A SNIPPET FROM REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my earthly hero and mentor)
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
#18 - The first-born and first-fruits are the "few" and "little flock;" but these, though first delivered from the curse, have a relation to the whole creation, which shall be saved in the appointed times by the first-born seed, that is by Christ and His body, through those appointed baptisms, whether of fire or water, which are required to bring about "the restitution of all things." St. Paul expressly declares this when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, ... that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in the earth, even in Him." - Rev. Andrew Jukes
I was introduced to the writings of Andrew Jukes in 1978. I am so grateul for it. He was a tremendous scholar and writer. It was his writing that started me of the path to understanding the restoration of all things. :o)
#19 – By Walter Lanyon
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."
With this overshadowing comes the peace that passeth ALL. An osmosis - absorption - a blending; into the ONE takes place and there is no longer question and answer, problem and solution.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" becomes a reality. There is no limitation - no questioning whether the desire is good, bad, or indifferent - for from this elevation the desire is the shape of the idea sent straight from the heart of God, and is made alive by the pulsating heartbeat of the universe.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" yet are you desireless, free from wanting and ready to move into a place of substance, out of the place of things and yet in the midst of them all. You are suddenly One. There is no more you and your problem, there is only you. You pass easily through the crowd of beliefs.
The Light universal keeps shining. As it intensifies, it absorbs the shadows of human belief; nothing matters, yet, everything does. It transform the Temple-body into a tenuous substance, through which it can shine forth, - assuming any attribute of God at will. Healing is not, then, some wonder projected through human thought, but rather the enveloping of the Golden Shadow. It is a natural blending with LIFE which rules out the narrow confines of health and strength in humankind. I AM suddenly submerged in a sea of LIFE - eternal, golden, and all redolent with the LOVE of God.
For the first time, the mystical becomes the intensely practical - the only real thing you have ever known. Sight becomes a capacity to peer through the dense midnight of thought, by means of the Light which projects its Golden Shadow from the "Mind which was also in Christ Jesus" and which you realize is the mind that is also in you.
No longer will you compromise with this power and put it through a thousand and one beliefs concocted by the mind of man. Instead, you permit it to take shape and form, even as the air takes the shape automatically of any vessel, yet never congeals or becomes set in that form, but lasts only for the moment of the duration of the desire.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" - it is a carte blanche releasement of HIS Love, and it has to be received naturally and not as some special dispensation. It is as though the Golden Shadow has cleared away all obstruction between you and His Love, and you can hear, and really HEAR what is being communicated to the earth plane; now you can really know the full dimensions of His Love, and that all manifestation will take place, independent of your thought and without any effort.
As a sudden heavy rain falls upon a parched desert and is instantly absorbed, so does this descent of spirit come upon you. It instantly changes the nature of the desert and the very seeds already there begin to stir. Something is to take place - "the desert is to blossom as a rose" - because of the downpour of His Love, and because of the Recognition. You are being conditioned to a new dimension.
The Golden Shadow is the Golden Fleece which you have sought for so long and which has been guarded by the Gorgon, with her snaky locks of human devices, ways and means. Upon whomsoever this Golden Shadow rests, something - a quickening, takes place - without effort, and without any of the old ideas of healing and helping. It is entirely impersonal and natural and has nothing at all to do with human thought. Nothing can stay it, nothing can project it; it is a natural movement or urge in the mind of God passing through the temple-body (man) casting the Golden Shadow of Love and doing the things called "miraculous" by its revealing Light.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." Heaven and earth are full of thee - full, pressed down, and running over - there is not one empty vessel left, - even the borrowed ones are full. The Love of God keeps flowing until everything is satisfied. And all the while the Golden Shadow keeps revealing the intensely practical angle of it. It is not a mystical intangible thing, but something to be experienced and something to be handled with the hands and something that causes the wine of inspiration to flow through the body-temple with the rush of a pure mountain torrent. Health is absorbed into the LIFE of GOD, which knows no limitations.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." You must be ALIVE to participate in this benefit. You have to come out of the tomb of human thinking into the clean, fresh and almost fierce tides of LIFE. You have to be ALIVE in the recognition and the instant response to HIS Voice.
To human thought His word is almost unbearably stimulating, breaking its limitations. The Spirit refuses to be longer held in the narrow confines of the letter. The grandeur, the magnificence of pure Spirit leaves you speechless and bereft of all thought. "Let the earth keep silent before me and renew her strength" - the body, the temple, the earth of you is experiencing the renewing of self-revelation.
You have entered a new mansion where there are "singing masons building roofs of gold."* "Beauty, then is the destiny" ** which begins to shape itself and put to flight the FATE of human thought.
Yes, "thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desires of every living thing." Right now - stay there a moment.
"Not to desire is to have." Can you hear?
Walter Lanyon
A SNIPPET FROM TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
"Does God not love His enemies, even as He has taught us to love ours? If He fails to reconcile even one, must it not be due to a lack of love, or of power? These qualities find their source in Him! So of a certainty He shall bring circumstances to bear which shall ultimately cause all to know, with understanding, His great love manifested in the gift of His Son, and this in turn shall fill each heart with adoration and love, and praise to God.
When God's plans for the ages of time (eonian times) have been accomplished, every experience of man will, under the guidance of His wisdom, work together with every other experience for man's highest ultimate good, and thus redound to God's honour and glory." 10
If it not be by the hand of God, how can I, a sinner, become a more compassionate and forgiving person, for it is the putting of Himself into me that brings about His desired result in me.
Amen Jugghead :-)
A SNIPPET FROM A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
"The adjective aionios, in the case of the wicked, is restricted to a limited period by its noun kolasis; of which the literal sense is clipping or pruning. It means the kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal. If endless were the sense of the adjective describing chastisement, it would represent God as acting under the influence of an endlessly vain expectation.
The belief of the Universalist includes a reconciliation of the tenets of Calvinism and Arminianism, by uniting the leading doctrines of both as far as they are found in the Scriptures; from which union they believe that the sentiment of Universal Restoration naturally flows." 11
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 27, 2012, 02:36:46 PM
The belief of the Universalist includes a reconciliation of the tenets of Calvinism and Arminianism, by uniting the leading doctrines of both as far as they are found in the Scriptures; from which union they believe that the sentiment of Universal Restoration naturally flows." 11
Thank You Jesus :o)
A SNIPPET FROM THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
"It is a great giant, this one called eternal hell!!! It can only be killed by the stone of truth taken from the running waters of God's word. These waters have been running for a long time, but the stone to kill the giant is ready now.
God told Israel to set everything free in the year of Jubilee. God is going to have a Jubilee in totality over all sin, all death, and all destruction in this world. This world belongs to God and it shall be restored and shine with glory. God's tapestry is unrolling bit by bit, and when it is all unrolled, the great Jubilee of rest for the entire universe will be unveiled." 12
A SNIPPET FROM TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY - G.T. STEVENSON
"Many plain direct statements in the sacred scriptures declare that the purpose of God through our Lord Jesus Christ is to bless all humanity and to bring the whole universe into harmony with Himself.
How can this be if myriads of mankind whom He so loves were to be kept alive forever in hopeless misery? And what kind of a god could love the sinner with Calvary love until he died, and then leave him in indescribable suffering eternally?" 13
A SNIPPET FROM THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
"The great enmity of mankind is but a background to magnify and display the far greater love of our God. Such love is as measureless as it is timeless; a vast portion being yet unrevealed. 'And having made peace through the blood of Christ's cross, by Him to reconcile all unto Himself, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.' This plan of the ages is our Lord's ultimate purpose according to the declared will of Almighty God. This is the divine destiny of all in His creation. This is love that never fails." 14
A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Many Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperilled." 15
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 01, 2012, 01:43:35 AM
A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Many Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperilled." 15
I think that's true for non ET ministers too. (but likely they are on that position because of searching)
A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote. 16
A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." 17
See this link.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html
actually aidos is used in Jude and it is not expressing eternal or everlasting. It is expressing limited duration otherwordly(supernatural chains that hold the angels that left their proper abode(exceeded their authority, perverted their giftings, etc or whatever)in nature, like 'olam'
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal(aidos) bonds under darkness for(until) the judgment of the great day,
(Jud 1:6)
This is one of the weaknesses of UR theology, there is a tendency to repeat by rote things we hear rather than checking things out.
Even tho Hanson's point is correct about Jesus's phraseolgy, setting up "aidos" as a strawman is unconvincing to any real Greek scholar form the opposing camp, and plays into the idea that we universalists just play it the way we want it to be.
Aidos was clearly not "universally" used for evrlasting or eternal if one of the only two times it appears in the New Testament was for "from the time of inception until the day of judgment".
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 03, 2012, 12:36:11 PM
actually aidos is used in Jude and it is not expressing eternal or everlasting. It is expressing limited duration otherwordly(supernatural chains that hold the angels that left their proper abode(exceeded their authority, perverted their giftings, etc or whatever)in nature, like 'olam'
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal(aidos) bonds under darkness for(until) the judgment of the great day,
(Jud 1:6)
This is one of the weaknesses of UR theology, there is a tendency to repeat by rote things we hear rather than checking things out.
Even tho Hanson's point is correct about Jesus's phraseolgy, setting up "aidos" as a strawman is unconvincing to any real Greek scholar form the opposing camp, and plays into the idea that we universalists just play it the way we want it to be.
Aidos was clearly not "universally" used for evrlasting or eternal if one of the only two times it appears in the New Testament was for "from the time of inception until the day of judgment".
:2c:
Hi eaglesway. I think that interested folk will examine the contents of the link and decide for themselves as to whether or not your conclusions are right.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html
A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
"The original terms translated everlasting, eternal, forever, are often employed in the Bible, as well as other writings under various limitations of import and are thus withdrawn from the predicament of meaning endless duration.
Since the terms do not necessarily signify an interminable duration, and since there is in the present instance to be pleaded for admitting a limited interpretation, a reason in the moral estimate of things of stupendous infinite urgency involving our perceptions of the divine goodness, and leaving those conceptions overwhelmed in darkness and horror if it be rejected, I therefore conclude that a limited interpretation is authorized." 18
It's rather horrible, to look into the darkness and death in religious people's eyes when you've been sharing truths from the Word concerning the true nature of God that contradicts ceaseless torture for ever. They seem to be kept unhearing by a power of darkness. Sometimes they get agitated, jumping quickly from concept to concept without the decency to allow a conversation. This is at least a borderline demonic quickening they sometimes think is "The" anointing.
I wonder if we should continue making the effort to speak on topic in such situations, perhaps changing instead to point out to them what they're doing. The response to this in turn has been their worsening in vehemnant antagonism. Since I mostly do "street witnessing" I tend not to see these people again which is an influence to make an all out effort on the spot and not postpone it. A great improvement is possible if people could just see themselves.
How about their never calling or stopping by, though I've left information for that with them? We're supposed to seek to free those who have been taken captive by the devil at his own will. When I've gone to deliver someone, offering them words of wisdom and knowldge from the Word, I've sometimes found I was the one who was wrong. I actually helped myself to move on by seeking to patiently help someone else; well, I think it's more accurate to say it was the Holy Spirit's doing who revealed to me their understanding was more in line with what is Written. Sometimes I've made a new friend that way.
Thanks for sharing that reFORMer.
IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated." 19
Quote from: reFORMer on August 04, 2012, 05:41:24 PM
I wonder if we should continue making the effort to speak on topic in such situations, perhaps changing instead to point out to them what they're doing. The response to this in turn has been their worsening in vehemnant antagonism.
Do what I do, don't bother trying to convince anyone of "the point". I simply tell people there is a plan of UR & leave it at that. If their minds are not already made up on that issue, then they will stop & ask you to explain, if they don't then it only means they don't care.
Good point Paul.
THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meagre man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' " 20
It is also so dynamic and overwhelmingly beautiful, that if man's will were free (and I believe, in a measure, it is), it would be inexoriably and universally won over to love, through the "lifting up" of Christ on the cross.
For this reason I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified.
THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
"Some say that if it can be proved that the punishment of the wicked will have an end, the same argument will prove that the life of the righteous will also end. But this is too much to take for granted on such a premise. Aionios does not of itself indicate either the limited or unlimited duration of anything, but its duration in each case depends on the nature of that to which it is applied.
Colored glasses give color to whatever men look at, and it is difficult for many to divest themselves of the influence of former teaching so far as to be willing to look at a thing from the standpoint of another.
Some of us have done this however. Though trained in the old school of thought, we have been enabled, by a careful examination of the Scriptures, to throw off the old idea and to accept the larger and better hope. And we are assured that the plan of the ages with its progressive revelation, and the general scope and spirit of the gospel as a revelation of the infinite love and wisdom of God, are far stronger evidence of the final victory of Christ in saving all men, than the mere definition of any word could be." 21
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
22
A must read.
#23 - DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
(These 254 pages are essentially an explanation of why he makes the following statement)
"The whole of scripture is full of the proclamation of a salvation that binds all men by a Redeemer Who gathers together and reconciles the whole universe. That is quite sufficient to enable us to hope for the salvation of all men without thereby coming into contradiction with the Word of God." 23
GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
"We do not wish to belittle the awful judgments of God. They will be terrible enough. But we desire to get all the perspective of Scripture and look to the end God has in view.
We do not believe that orthodox theology has done this. It has stopped short in the ages themselves and has misnamed them eternity, and has therefore presented the vision of a heaven full of saints and a hell full of tortured sinners in endless existence. In such a survey of the ultimate there is no place for the vision that Paul gives when God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
We contend that nothing less than the reconciliation of all would satisfy the heart of God and be a fitting consummation to the shedding of the blood of His Son." 24
#20 – Dr. E.W. Bullinger, THE COMPANION BIBLE
"We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, an all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest heart and subdue the stoutest will."
A snippet from THESIS ON THE EONS – Travis Ogletree
Travis wrote, "Many find it difficult to see that the God Who is willing that none should perish has made atonement, not just for the sins of the elect, but for the sins of the whole world, will succeed (2 Peter 3:9 & John 1:2)."
Anyone who reads this thesis will probably find it less difficult and will have a much better understanding of why some of us believe that the Bible, literally (not interpretively) translated, teaches the eventual salvation of everyone because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection.
Good job Travis! I'm sure it will be a blessing to everyone who reads it, even if it only causes them to begin to rejoice in the hope that the point of view your thesis presents is true.
A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.
The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (unquote)
This is his comment regarding Matthew 25:46.
25
THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
"The crowning glory of the 'good news' or evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to bring to the 'gentiles' or nations, is the revelation that He will reconcile all to God.
What a marvellous outcome of God's purpose! What a wonderful Christ Who can accomplish such a complete and glorious reconciliation! All creatures, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, reconciled in perfect peace to the great love of God through the Son of His love.
More of these untraceable honours and glories of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to reveal, could be pointed out with delight, but these will suffice to increase our faith, enrich our joy and brighten our expectation 'in Him in Whom our lot was cast also,' Christ Jesus our Lord, Life, and Head!" 26
Welcome back from your short holiday Rodger!
Thanks WhiteWings.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
'This is life eternal' should be 'the life of the ages,' i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The 'eternal covenant' is the 'covenant of the ages,' the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The 'eternal purpose' is really the purpose of 'the ages,' i.e. developed and worked out in 'the ages.'
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ's work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages 'cometh the end' when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
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Quote from: rodgertutt on August 12, 2012, 10:13:48 PM
WILLIAM BARCLAY
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.
He not only wrote
The Daily Bible Study commentaries on the N.T., very good and with a historical perspective, his translation of the New Testament was separately published. Recently I saw a copy in a used book store in Augusta (Georgia) for $40 that was sold before I could get back to grab it. Does anyone know if it's an ebook or available on the internet?
I found better prices: http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=4660978
Commentaries: http://e-sword-users.org/users/node/95
http://www.tentmaker.org/e-sword_modules/esword_CD.html
There is/was a esword module of his Study Bible. I'll try to locate it.
A snippet from THE PRESENCE – Walter Lanyon
Do you feel the' Presence and understand what it is to recognize for a moment
that nothing----no, not anything -----is to be destroyed, but everything is to be fulfilled with the Love of God which only has to be recognized to change the imagination and shatter the belief that held it into its outline of ugliness?
Formerly we went out to battle with the thing called evil ----now we have reduced it to the vacuum of belief in the absence of God. No matter how rampant it may be, and how destructive in its manifestation, or how terrible in its dimensions----it is in the final analysis the absence of God, and this absence of God can only exist in the imagination, for God is omnipresent.
"I come not to destroy but to fulfill" will thrill you and relieve you of all the hateful warfare with evil that has been going on------it will bring you to a true understanding of the non-resistance of the Christ Mind within you and make you understand the height and depth and majesty of this Presence.
It is wonderful-----it is glorious------it causes the Hosannas to rise from the very centre of your being and magnify the Lord of Lords and Host of Hosts.
THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
From the time of the apostles to the era of the reformation 1498.
"I have been careful to state, in his own words, the opinion of every Christian author extant concerning future punishment and the eventual salvation of the world. This history contains an account of every individual of note whom we have now the means of knowing to have been a universalist."
THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
Contains the writings of several hundreds of Christian Universalists from 1498 to 1830.
A snippet from Thomas Whittemore reads, "I cannot permit this opportunity to pass without expressing my heart felt acknowledgements to that Being Who has preserved my health and enabled me to finish this work in the midst of other pressing and incessant duties. May my confidence in Him never be diminished."
28,29
#30 - RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
"It is argued that whatever be the meaning of the word aionios in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving. But the truth is that this word describes not the quantity or duration, but the quality of that which it is predicated.
The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means 'pruning' and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing." 30
Rodger, personal question....
Are you one of the two witnesses?
:-)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2012, 08:09:49 AM
Rodger, personal question....
Are you one of the two witnesses?
:-)
Hoo nose eh? Maybe you are the other one WhiteWings. :-)
YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
"Lord, did you really say in Your word what I used to believe You said? Is it actually ok with You that people will spend eternity in hell? No, no, a thousand times no! You do not say that - and I am so relieved. Because had You said that, it would follow that I would have to think of You as worse than a murderer, that is, as a tormentor. If a person is murdered at least the possibility of torture and torment is past. But if I were to believe that You have prepared an eternal hell for some, I would also have to believe that You can be happy while you are tormenting people eternally." 31
THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
"I am assured that goodness is the foundation, and happiness is the end of all the ways of God, to myself and every creature. Hope is the anchor of my soul, sure and steadfast; for though 'His ways should be in the deep and His paths in the mighty waters;' though I should experience every external evil; no affliction shall shake my confidence. Never will I dishonour by a moment's distrust, a Being Who has in mercy commanded me to 'cast all my care upon Him;' because 'He careth for me.'
I have in the whole of this treatise, in establishing the doctrine of perfect goodness, and following it in its consequences; constantly combated such erroneous opinions as represent the Creator of the human race as a Being Whose power will be employed in inflicting never ending torments on a portion of His creatures, and I have established the non-eternity of future torments." 32
HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
(recently published and can be downloaded free, and read online)
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
Believers in eternal torment will probably not want to have anything to do with this link, but others on this forum might.
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded free and read online.
33
AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all.
The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun." 34
THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
"It may be questioned whether we understand the terms 'forever,' 'forever and ever,' and 'everlasting,' aright, for these terms are used in divers places as things that have an end and are understood in a limited and qualified sense. These terms are too weak a foundation to build an assertion of everlasting hell upon, as concludes and shuts up God forever in wrath, never to come forth in the exercise of mercy. Whether or not there is an ending is not revealed by the use of these terms.
O my God, Thou art love and canst no more cease to be so than to be Thyself. Take Thy own methods with us, and submit us to them. Well may we do so in an assurance that the beginning, the way, and the end of them all is love. I must believe then that Thy grace will super-abound wherever sin hath most abounded."
35
It could be said perhaps that all God's works, words & ways are living and active for the purpose of removing us from a life lived by the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, into a life lived as a tree planted beside the streams of living water, bearing fruit in season, with leaves for the healing of the nations.
Thanks for that eaglesway.
THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
"In 1Timothy 2: 5&6 we read, 'For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras).' This scripture defines the purpose of God through the name Jesus. Thus God exalts His Son, so at the name of Jesus, the name which means that He is salvation, 'every knee shall be bowing and every tongue shall be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.' Philippians 2:9-11.
The name of Jesus must not be held in contempt. It must be exalted. How could those who bow the knee and acknowledge Him as Lord ever thus dishonour the name of Jesus, which they would be doing if they were lost? It was Jesus who died to save them as He gave His life a correspondent ransom for all. God will exalt that precious name as He transports us all into the kingdom of the Son of His love." 36
Ahhhh sweet Jesus, we love your name, as it is you who bears it :o)
UNION – JAMES RELLY
In his book UNION, Relly presents scriptural texts for the view that universal salvation is assured. He argues that Jesus Christ's union with all human beings, and His assumption of their guilt for their sins ensures that the entire human race will be saved.
He further argues that faith is the result, not the cause, of experiencing the saving power of God.
He wrote, "Man, being the vessel marred between the Potter's hands is not rejected, but made into another and better vessel (Jeremiah 18:2).
37
THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once." 38
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death." 39
GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
"From the beginning God was and always will be a God of all grace. He purposes to be All in all of His creation; but every man in his own foreordained and previously marked out order. No doctrine is of God that does not include, 'Having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His own benevolent design, which He previously purposed in Himself: that in the fullness of the ages He will gather together in one all in Christ, both those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth, even in Him.'
It is wrong to teach that this age of grace will soon end. In our redeemed bodies we will be righteous, and in the ages to come we will be teaching the grace of God to others." 40
HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of aion.
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the Greek noun aion must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal continues." 41
THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." 42
THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC – LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD
The following is my all-time favorite quote. I've had it memorized for many years and I quote it frequently. As a staunch universalist, Leslie Weatherhead meant it to include everyone without exception, after everyone who needs it experiences kolasis aionion, or age-during corrective chastisement.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
43
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:33-36)
TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
"Modern theology has so long circumvented our thinking and teaching to the biased idea that God will save only part of His creation and so limited His redemptive powers that we have forgotten that with God all things are possible and shall be wrought out in due time. God has a definite schedule for saving His creatures, and there is nothing that can withstand His purpose.
Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. It is all a part of God's purpose of the ages and redemption's glory will only shine out the more after the plan's execution. God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control."
44
THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?" 45
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all." 46
DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself." 47
THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
"Today every warden in the U.S. endorses the ideal of rehabilitation. Shall we say then that God is less reasonable than His creatures? No! God's punishments exist not for vindictive suffering, but rather for remedy! Praise His Holy Name!
God works with a glorious end in view. We have viewed the judgments of God against sin and unrighteousness as the end, when in reality they are only a means to an end. The revelation of scriptural truth does not view God's judgments in the ages to come as vindictive, as if to say that God is vengeful, implacable, and hateful against men (as all too often those who profess His Name appear to be!), This insight into God's purposes in judgment rather declares that these judgments are remedial, that they exist to effect a positive divine end for everyone.
Christ died "to reconcile all unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross" Colossians 1:20. The all saving Cross of Christ will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinner have no more a name among the creatures of God." 48
THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
"God says He will reconcile all; the whole creation shall ultimately be delivered, and every created thing shall finally praise God (Revelation 5:13).
The point that I wish the reader especially to note is that the final accomplishment of this purpose of God depends on Himself, and not on man. The creature may fail, the Creator never fails; and no amount of blunders, mistakes, failures or perversions of the creature shall disarrange or thwart the plans of the Creator. This is the true basis of redemption." 49
THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"To know the true and living God 'out of Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:6, is to recognize that His purpose for His creatures can only be loving, wise, righteous, and good.
To know Jesus Christ, 'through Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:8, is to know that God's purpose cannot fail. Shall we who know Him and have had ours eyes opened to the glorious triumph of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ sit idly by and let reproach be heaped upon His Name without protesting?
Think how the teaching of endless punishment slanders God and Jesus Christ! We know Christ died for all (1Tim. 2:6). Does God lack the goodness, the power, the love, the grace to save all? God declares that judgment is eonian; man says it is everlasting. Let us believe God and not man."
Joseph Kirk 50
SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"Regarding the argument that if the punishment of the unbelievers has an end, then the life of the believers has an end also at the end of the ages.
But life cannot end at that time because death is abolished (1Cor. 15:26). The life of the eons ends when all are vivified at the end or consummation of the eons (1Cor. 15:24).
Life itself, however, continues on interminably."
"Regarding the argument that in 2Cor. 4:18 eonian must mean eternal because it is set in contrast with the word temporal meaning enduring for time as opposed to eternity.
But the Greek word translated temporal has no connection with the word for time; it is literally 'toward season,' and means temporary or for the era. In this passage eonian is used in contrast between our afflictions which last for a brief season, and our promised long enduring eonian glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation when God become All in all." 51
William C. Rebman
SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"What was done cannot be undone. The work of God and the obedience of Christ on Golgotha is not something conditional on whether or not we believe it or respond to it or prepare ourselves for it. It has already happened, and its effects are unstoppable. The consequence of the obedience of Christ is that every descendant of Adam will be constituted righteous. When Christ died, God was there in Him conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offences to them (2Cor. 5:19). Peace is not made by us; it is made by God in the death of His Son. And now God is entreating through us that this peace might be recognized and enjoyed (2Cor. 5:20)."
Dean Hough 52
SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"The use of 'forever and ever' instead of the accurate rendering 'for the eons of the eons,' is a gross mistranslation. Most translators simply lacked the insight to see the point of many of the passages that speak of the eons. Since they were able, however, to make sense of these passages by translating by 'everlasting' or 'eternal,' they simply went ahead and did so, any resultant problems notwithstanding. Due to a lack of sensible thinking it was impossible for them to face the fact that the usual translations of this word are quite mistaken and extremely harmful!"
James Coram 53
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
By way of introduction Knoch wrote
"In this little handbook we tear away the false traditions of Christendom first. Then we remove the dark cover which philosophical mistranslations have laid over God's Book. With these gone all that is necessary is to read God's message to us more carefully, and its overwhelmingly glorious solution of this vexed problem illuminates our minds and flood our hearts with exultant joy and praise and adoration to the God of all grace and glory."
Then, by way of conclusion at the end of His book Knoch wrote
"We have considered the traditions of Christendom which darken this subject and found them unscriptural. My love to God and my admiration have increased unutterably since I have seen that He is not the defeated fiend of Christendom, but is fully able to cope with evil and sin, and bind them all to the chariot wheels of love. All His attributes, including holiness, and righteousness, serve in the livery of love. Adored be His Name!" 54
CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
"Before the last age is over, every knee in heaven and in earth and under the earth will have bowed to Christ, and every tongue will have confessed to God that He is Lord to the glory of God (Phil. 2:10). 'In the name of Jesus' (literal translation) signifies much more than is implied by the simple use of the Name in speech. According to the idiom it signifies 'in the very nature of Jesus,' and as no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3), we know that there will be no hypocritical confession, nor will there be any confession by compulsion, but a true confession of Christ by every creature in the universe, and that to the glory of God the Father." 55
Awesome, Simply Awesome.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 24, 2012, 10:19:14 AM
Awesome, Simply Awesome.
:iagree:
EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for the eons of the eons." 56
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
"All creation remains within the care and keeping of its Creator. The vessels which become marred never leave the hand of the Potter; they are marred while still in His hand. The lesson that was taught Jeremiah (Jer. 18:4), though to be interpreted as relating to Israel, nevertheless embodies a principle which is sustained throughout the whole outworking of God's purpose. He holds all in the hollow of His hand, and though He may allow, and even cause, some of His creatures to temporarily turn away from Him, He never lets them go. That is why Paul can write in Romans 8:20, 'For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." 57
THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
"To those who would challenge the truth of the reconciliation of all, I would reply, 'It is God's choice, and praise be to Him that He has chosen it to be so. Let no one deny God the right to choose as He wills.' "
"When God's conciliatory hand of friendship has been grasped by all in complete reconciliation, and when the wisdom of His choosings and His appointments, that is His sovereignty has been universally accepted beyond question – in short, when God is All in all, then every one of His creatures will rejoice in being one of HIS achievements, and all in the heavens and on earth will be both prepared and glad to acknowledge that of themselves they have contributed nothing, but that ALL HAS BEEN OF HIM." 58
THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)
"A time is coming when Christ, the Beloved Himself, stands before His Father Who is Love, with the entire universe in train. What a thrilling reception, what a glorious presentation that will be! The great end for which the God of expectation waited, in perfect assurance, and for which Christ gave Himself. How fully will such a conclusion accord with the delight of His will!
There was a time when such greatness of salvation was more widely believed.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
But the imposed beliefs of the dark ages spoiled all this. Christendom was held as with iron bands in the grip of priest-ridden assent. And although their teaching is kept in the background, it is still there, giving that fatal bias which so clouds the perception of grace. Thus, we find resort to the limiting of Scripture by Scripture, to the seeing of finality when God's purpose is in continuance, and the ignoring of those passages which so blessedly bring out the fullness and triumph of saving grace. But how happy should they be who, brought to a present belief, enjoy to the full the prospect of future salvation for all, even the reconciliation of the universe.
Stage upon stage, the Victor of Golgotha will move on His momentous and victorious way. Then will He show that 'the Father has delivered all into His hands' John 13:3. And in those capable hands, the world, even though it be by tumult, will be led to peace. What a perfect expression God's grace finds in such a scene! What a realization of the truth attendant on so great a salvation! How rapturous a vision, too, of the One Who carried it to such a conclusion, Who sought until He found, Who loved until He won!" 59
GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God 'is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the 'all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
'To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " 60
TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
"Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God's affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God's love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God's limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.
Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!" 61
Wow, What a beautiful expression of the glory of the gospel and our part in it.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:4-7
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Rv 20:4-6
A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
"We scan the dark ages of man and note how in the most pitiful ignorance, men, women, and children have died without the light of love – bitter, belaboured and bereft of hope. All this and worse if the theories of men who limit the Gospel of Christ are right!
But why limit God? Why limit His power? Why indeed limit His plan and purposes for the ages of time? Why take part of His plan and label it as the whole? Why limit the great God of love at all, He Who is infinite love? Why indeed limit the compassion and overflowing love of Jesus 'who gave Himself a ransom for all'? (1Tim. 2:5,6). Are not the arms of Jesus long enough or strong enough to reach out and snatch the sinner from the jaws of suffering and death, if not in this dispensation, then in the ages to come? God 'will have all men to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth' (Rom. 5:18). Never let it be said that any one of us limited God in any way." 62
THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
"Words are inadequate to describe the harm which has resulted from confounding the ages with eternity.
The Greek and Hebrew terms rendered 'forever and ever,' 'eternal,' 'everlasting' never refer to endlessness; but to a series of terminable periods know as age-times. These ages are periods in which God carries on remedial work, but they have a conclusion and pass away when the purpose to be accomplished in them has been realized. The ages are never synonymous with endlessness but always distinct therefrom.
That the words translated 'forever and ever' are associated with the hereafter of both believer and unbeliever is true; but in the case of both it is limited to the span of the ages, and has not the remotest reference to the final state of either. Therefore the dogmas of endless agony and endless sin rest on purely imaginary premises and are without the slightest shred of biblical support." 63
"HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
This writing is a detailed explanation of why the author makes the following statement.
"The barbarous and heathen dogma of endless torment is refuted by the very passages on which orthodoxy depends for its support." 64
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 01, 2012, 02:52:35 PM
THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
http://home.earthlink.net/~rubyybur/VGages.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 04, 2012, 02:02:42 PM
"HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
http://home.earthlink.net/~rubyybur/expunge%20the%20word%20hell%20VG.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~rubyybur/expunge%20the%20word%20hell%20VG.htm)
Thanks for the links WhiteWings. :thumbsup:
"ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
" 'This is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth' (1Tim. 2:3). This passage shows us what is the driving force behind salvation, the will of God. It is God Who is the Saviour, not us, and it is His will that is the decisive factor that results in the saving of all.
Many believers will have some to be saved, some to be reconciled; God will have all to be saved, all to be reconciled. He will be All in all, not all in some. Many insist on the word 'some' because it makes human endeavour a part of salvation; they will not recognize that human endeavour is, of itself, vanity, and that all is of God. He, the One, does everything for the all, that in each He may display His grace. Let us not claim for ourselves the glory of our salvation, but give it wholly to Him." 65
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 05, 2012, 02:00:34 PM
Thanks for the links WhiteWings. :thumbsup:
Do you still have all the links or want them Rodger?
I think I can find most if needed/wanted.
Yes, it would be good for me to have all the links in a document.
Thanks again WhiteWings.
ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)
In summing up his book he wrote
"Christ has truly made peace 'through the blood of His cross.' But the clear potency of it is yet to be seen when the ministry of reconciliation has accomplished its beneficial purpose. Then, the salvation of all is at last a wondrous reality. The tendency we see in God's great stream of the eons has widened and enlarged until all are richly blessed by its satisfying power. Its noble volume, now freed of all obstacles, attains a majestic flow. And so, by seemingly strange and inexplicable ways, the God of all grace accomplishes His purpose. For 'Grace not in rills, but cataracts rolls.' How glorious the stream, and how salutary its miraculous power! Sin has affected all, all but One glorious, sinless Being, and He in marvelous grace triumphs completely over it.
There will not be a single creature, then, above or below, who is not 'lost in wonder, love and praise.' A scene truly to inspire, and continuously impel to grateful thanks. Transcendent grace indeed, in fullest flow." 66
"ETERNAL LIFE" – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Hebrew and Greek scholars know that there is no word in the Bible corresponding to our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means unending. Most theologians know this too, but they don't teach it. Only one who is willing to stand for TRUTH for truth's sake and is willing to be branded a fanatic would dare to challenge the translation 'eternal life.'
'Eternal life,' so called, pertains to relationship and quality. What men are urged to 'lay hold of' is 'eonian life' or 'real life' or 'true life.' It is not duration but quality. How tragic that truths like this are covered up by faulty translations!"
The only definition of 'eternal life' so-called, in the entire Bible is clearly stated in John 17:3, 'And this is life eternal (eonian), that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' That describes relationship, not duration; it signifies quality, not quantity." 67
yet, we go to great lengths to establish that "aion" is a specific period of time with a beginning and an end, and that "aioian" is an adjective based on the root word. Then we reverse ourselves at a convenient point to say "aionian" strictly refers to quality not quantity. I believe this appears as a weak argument to any biblical scholar of the "opposition".
That is why I advocate returning, beyond the Greek, into the Hebrew, "olam", because I think the Greeks caused most of our translational problems in the first place with their high minded worship of their own language and disregard for the Hebrew meanings of words.
Olam should be the foundational word for establishing what Jesus was saying about "zoe" life, which transcends time. :o)
zoe olam
Thanks for sharing your point of view eaglesway.
TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
"After long years of torturing doubts, God had mercy on me and turned my darkness into light, my despair into joy and my misery into exultation. He brought me into touch with His revelation, just as He had written it, apart from most of the mistranslations of well-meaning men, who were bound by creeds and tradition.
I found out that sin and suffering are confined to the eons or ages, as 'forever' and 'everlasting' should be translated. There will indeed be an awful judgment, but it will not merely punish, but set right all wrongs.
Not only will God bring all of earth's inhabitants back into the sunlight of His love, but, through the blood of Christ's cross, He will reconcile all to Him, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). The present enmity toward God on the part of terrestrial and celestial creatures will, in due time, be used as a background to display His love. That is why I no longer have torturing doubts, but revel in exultant faith." 68
THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
"We read in 1Tim. 1:11 that Paul was entrusted with the evangel of the glory of the happy God. We read in 1Tim. 2:4 that God wills that all mankind be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and that Christ Jesus gave Himself a correspondent ransom for all (2:6).
Our God is a happy God. In Ephesians 1:10,11 we learn of the secret of God's will, and this accords with His delight. It gives God joy and happiness and delight to purpose and bring about 'an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ.'
Such an evangel is certainly for the laud of His glory." 69
THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
"Coming to the close of the last age, we find the earth filled with God's righteousness. All know Him from the least to the greatest. The earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Through His own blood, Christ has reconciled all back to God. We see every tongue confessing in love and adoration Christ as Lord. This can only be done in obedience and love as it is a unanimous Praise of the Universe to the glory of God the Father (Colossians 1:20).
It is little wonder that all gladly proclaim redemption's story. God now rises in everyone, bringing the consummation of God's plan of the ages – a complete circle, from God in Himself to GOD ALL IN ALL." 70
GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
"Many attempts have been made to prove that eons are eternal. The Greek word aion and the Hebrew olam, both meaning age or eon, have been translated by terms meaning endlessness. This is a grave error, for the divine Author, Himself has not used them in this way. He has indicated that they were not eternal in the past by informing us that they had a beginning (1Cor. 2:7), and, again, that they cannot possibly be everlasting in the future, for they are to end (Heb. 9:26; 1Cor. 10:11).
God's plan for creation is confined to time. It is not an 'eternal' purpose' but a 'purpose of the eons' (Eph. 3:11). Beyond the ages there will be naught but bliss and perfection for every member of creation (Rom. 8:19-22). Sin and evil and death will then be past; all will be saved and reconciled, and God shall be All, not in a few, but in all (1Cor. 15:28)." 71
#72 - A snippet from GOD'S METHODS WITH MAN – G. Campbell Morgan (pages 185-186)
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. Men have divided the church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a though conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible."
G. Campbell Morgan
In response to that statement, the SCRIPTURE STUDIES CONCERN editor (unnamed) wrote in 1956
"We cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One Who is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages. God's punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour."
72
NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
"In Romans 5:18,19 we have on the one side as the cause one lapse and the effects extending to all mankind for condemnation. We have on the other side one just sentence of acquittal, and the effect extending to all mankind for a justifying that carries with it LIFE.
Since 'the many' were involved in sin and death through the agency of one man, Adam, 'much more' may we believe that 'the many' will be involved in righteousness and life through the agency of the One Man, Christ Jesus."
EDITOR'S NOTE:
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind. 73
Awesome for sure.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 15, 2012, 07:40:44 AM
Awesome for sure.
:iagree:
AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
"By examining the texts of the Greek manuscripts we find the word AIONIOS or AGE LASTING in place of the word eternal of the King James version. AIONIOS the adjective modifies its noun AION or AGE and means lasting during the AGE, or AGE-LASTING.
For that meticulous student of the Word of God that was penned by the inspired writers, I am including this concordance of the Greek noun AION and its adjective AIONIOS for your reference in your studies of the mistranslations of the King James version versus the text of the Greek manuscripts." 74
THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
"Many do not understand the extent and purpose of God, that He is the propitiation for our sins, AND NOT OURS ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the whole world (1John 4:10).
God is calling us to come up higher into Him and begin to see from His eyes, from His position.
God never loses! HE WINS ALL! He said, 'Pick up the fragments, let NOTHING be lost.
This is seen from His side of the picture. We do not have a tired and frustrated God unable or unwilling to save His own creation. He will vindicate His own character and nature of love and power. Praise His Name!" 75
Pore God. First He made the angels, then the angels rebelled. Then He made the man and the woman, and they rebelled because and angel tricked them. The He chose a nation from one man(Abraham) and gave them the Law so they could enjoy happy prosperity, but they would not receive it. Then He sent the prophets to warn them about the cliff they were running off of, and to win their hearts back into justice, mercy and love- and they KILLED THEM! Then, as a final drastic measure He sent His son, to teach them about love and to heal them and forgive them and to provide them with His Spirit- BUT SO FEW WANTED IT1
Pore God, Now mostly all the people He ever created (plus a third of the angels)are going to burn forever, or be totally annihilated out of existence, and His hands are tied because big as He is, He made man's free will BIGGER than His because for some reason(His ways are higher than ours, don't tire yourself out trying to understand it, just accept it) He will feel fulfilled with a FINAL PICTURE within which MOST OF HIS CREATED BEINGS ARE BURNING FOREVER OR FOREVER BURNT!
Who can call this "good news"?
DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
"All of God's judgments are corrective measures that counteract, and also cooperate for the eventual good and reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world.
God never judges in vengeance for vengeance sake, but only for ultimate rehabilitation. He has His perfect timing to bring forth ultimate good for all. Thus many divine judgments are postponed until iniquity comes to the full (Gen. 15:16).
All must experience human failure and total depravity to the full in order to appreciate salvation when God eventually sets all things right throughout the whole universe (Isa. 9:26; and Phil. 2:10,11). 76
GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
"The whole universe will feel the impact and glory of the cross as it takes away the sin of the world. This expression of God's influence, power, and love will continue to shine out of His own heart until all come under His sway; saved, purified, changed, and drawn back into Himself.
None can escape the loving and corrective judgment of the Father. Nothing shall be lost or wasted. The true light is shining more and more unto that perfect day when all shall be understood – God reaching His own ultimate plan, the great cycle of love completed; God All in all, everything in everybody. This is true love in the full expression of the cross." 77
Thank you for sharing your SNIPPETS... always so edifying, comforting, faith-building...
I particularly appreciated the reminder "...the great cycle of love completed;..." I often reflect on the Lord's prayer (John's gospel--chapter 17)... it seems to me that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was indeed praying that the great cycle of love be completed (verses 21-26 especially)
Quote from: eaglesway on October 15, 2012, 08:29:53 PM
Pore God. First He made the angels, then the angels rebelled. Then He made the man and the woman, and they rebelled because and angel tricked them. The He chose a nation from one man(Abraham) and gave them the Law so they could enjoy happy prosperity, but they would not receive it. Then He sent the prophets to warn them about the cliff they were running off of, and to win their hearts back into justice, mercy and love- and they KILLED THEM! Then, as a final drastic measure He sent His son, to teach them about love and to heal them and forgive them and to provide them with His Spirit- BUT SO FEW WANTED IT1
:LH:
Quote from: goodreport on October 17, 2012, 02:57:09 PM
Thank you for sharing your SNIPPETS... always so edifying, comforting, faith-building...
I particularly appreciated the reminder "...the great cycle of love completed;..." I often reflect on the Lord's prayer (John's gospel--chapter 17)... it seems to me that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was indeed praying that the great cycle of love be completed (verses 21-26 especially)
It's a great pleasure for me to share my snippets goodreport! :-)
I am presently sharing them on more than eighty forums.
I sort of feel like a sun shining down healing rays on this ET wounded world. :dsunny:
THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
"Babylonish religion would have us believe that everything will end when this age concludes; however, God is not the least bit influenced by man's religion since He already determined that His redemptive plan involves the ages beyond this present age. In the age of the fullness of times, all things in the heavens and on earth that have not yet been gathered into Christ, will then be gathered into Him (Eph. 1:8-10).
The will of God has been positively affirmed in this matter, for Paul wrote of God, 'Who will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth,' (1Tim 2:4). The Lord is omnipotent and shall perform all that He has purposed concerning all mankind, 'Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE' (Is. 46:10).
78
Roger, is there a link to Paul Mueller's writing?
http://www.ariseministry.com/content/othersites/paulmainpage.htm
http://www.ariseministry.com/web%20pages/othersites.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2012, 09:01:49 AM
http://www.ariseministry.com/content/othersites/paulmainpage.htm
http://www.ariseministry.com/web%20pages/othersites.htm
Thanks for the links.
"FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"Because of their past teaching in the tradition of man, many will argue that man's own will shall prevent the fulfilling of God's own stated will. But according to God's word of truth wherein He cannot lie, He shall mercifully prove them to be wrong. Fortunately for mankind, God works ALL things, including man's destiny, after the counsel of His own will, and always, what His soul desires, even that He does (Job 23:13).
Believe it or not, God's intimate sovereign control is absolute and universal in scope (Job 3:7), even to the extent of man's delusions (2Thes. 1:11; Is. 66:4; Jer. 6:19). This is notably evident in the church's delusion – that God cannot successful influence the human will unless we let Him. But God has absolute control over the extent of success to which His word reaches and changes others, even to the extent of controlling what that word means to each individual (Is. 29:14; Matt. 13:11; 19:11).
It is a prophetic fact, predetermined, willed, divinely promised, and assured by the word of our faithful God Who in fact 'WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED' (1Tim. 2:4), This is true not only because 'HE IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN' (1Tim. 4:10), and not just of the first fruits whom He now specially causes to believe, but also because of the truth that 'HE IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH or be rendered unfit for the ultimate pleasure of His will (Rev. 4:11; Eph. 1:5,9; Col. 1:19,20), for 'IT IS NOT OF HIM WHO IS WILLING, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, BUT OF GOD (Rom. 9:16).
79
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 19, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2012, 09:01:49 AM
http://www.ariseministry.com/content/othersites/paulmainpage.htm
http://www.ariseministry.com/web%20pages/othersites.htm
Thanks for the links.
And you thanks for the snippets. You must be among the busiest internetters. Not many post 80 times a day.
Have you ever considered collecting all your snippets in e-book format and hand out to everyone who wants it?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2012, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 19, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2012, 09:01:49 AM
http://www.ariseministry.com/content/othersites/paulmainpage.htm
http://www.ariseministry.com/web%20pages/othersites.htm
Thanks for the links.
And you thanks for the snippets. You must be among the busiest internetters. Not many post 80 times a day.
Have you ever considered collecting all your snippets in e-book format and hand out to everyone who wants it?
Is an e-book format similar to a document?
I have sent a document of all my snippets to my friends who either don't have websites, or don't have forums on their websites.
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 19, 2012, 04:30:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2012, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 19, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 19, 2012, 09:01:49 AM
http://www.ariseministry.com/content/othersites/paulmainpage.htm
http://www.ariseministry.com/web%20pages/othersites.htm
Thanks for the links.
And you thanks for the snippets. You must be among the busiest internetters. Not many post 80 times a day.
Have you ever considered collecting all your snippets in e-book format and hand out to everyone who wants it?
Is an e-book format similar to a document?
I have sent a document of all my snippets to my friends who either don't have websites, or don't have forums on their websites.
e-book is a non printed format like pdf or Word.
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 18, 2012, 02:36:55 PM
Quote from: goodreport on October 17, 2012, 02:57:09 PM
Thank you for sharing your SNIPPETS... always so edifying, comforting, faith-building...
I particularly appreciated the reminder "...the great cycle of love completed;..." I often reflect on the Lord's prayer (John's gospel--chapter 17)... it seems to me that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was indeed praying that the great cycle of love be completed (verses 21-26 especially)
It's a great pleasure for me to share my snippets goodreport! :-)
I am presently sharing them on more than eighty forums.
I sort of feel like a sun shining down healing rays on this ET wounded world. :dsunny:
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth. What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too.
And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally." http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
"MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"Some believe that God's satisfaction will be found in the eternal torment of some of His creatures. But John was not speaking of a perverted pleasure when he penned, 'Thou hast created all things and for Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). God's plan and purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) is to include perfectly executed and unique stages of progressive development resulting in the final restoration and reconciliation of all.
God has been and always will be in absolute sovereign control over His entire cosmic plan, even unto its ultimate consummation in perfection. His plan for all of humanity cannot fail. All of His working together of good and evil is in perfect harmony and balance. God's love shall not fail. His absolute power and might insures His completing of all He has willed to do, both in our individual salvation, and in the universal salvation that is sure to come." 80
"ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
81
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:16-20)
Gloooory!
THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
"The throne is white. May the One Who will be seated upon it keep us from painting it black. The judgment is viewed in the light of its outcome. If it leads to eternal conscious torment for all who stand before it as orthodoxy demands, then the throne is black and an outrage on justice and a heartless exhibition of fiendish cruelty.
It is only when we see that the outcome of this judgment is universal reconciliation (Col. 1:20), that we can really acknowledge that the throne is white. It is only when we limit the actual infliction of pain and penalties to the judgment era that we are able to appreciate the righteousness of God's throne.
The judgment is as varied as the individual. It is as different as their acts. Some will suffer severely, some slightly, and all according to their deserts. But there is no reason to prolong this time to infinity. It is preparatory to their reconciliation."
82
A sublime truth beautifully and succinctly expressed. :HeartThrob:
PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
"Salvation through Christ will extend outward to include all people (Rom 5:18; 1Tim. 2:4-6). Indeed it is far more than that. Salvation in Christ reaches out to embrace all intelligent beings in the entirety of the universe (Eph. 1:10; Phil. 2:10,11; Col. 1:15-20). The power of God to save is all encompassing. And when God sets out to accomplish a task (such as saving the world and the universe), He will be successful – God will always be successful!
No power in the universe, including Satan himself, can thwart God's plan to save all those within His creation. And this is precisely where Progressive Revelation leads – it leads to the truth that God will finally save all!" 83
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus." 84
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 27, 2012, 03:33:27 PM
PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
"Salvation through Christ will extend outward to include all people (Rom 5:18; 1Tim. 2:4-6). Indeed it is far more than that. Salvation in Christ reaches out to embrace all intelligent beings in the entirety of the universe (Eph. 1:10; Phil. 2:10,11; Col. 1:15-20). The power of God to save is all encompassing. And when God sets out to accomplish a task (such as saving the world and the universe), He will be successful – God will always be successful!
No power in the universe, including Satan himself, can thwart God's plan to save all those within His creation. And this is precisely where Progressive Revelation leads – it leads to the truth that God will finally save all!" 83
Absolutely Awesome!
THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
"The freedom we now enjoy in spirit will ultimately be enjoyed by the whole creation when it is reconciled to God, and this includes the whole of humanity, for God wills all mankind to be saved and to come into a realization of the truth (1Tim.2:4). When His purpose is accomplished, there will be no vessels of indignation left.
When the reconciliation of all is complete the joy of the universe will be full. When the purpose of the All-sufficient God has reached its consummation, and He is All in all, every heart will be filled with the true laughter which accompanies the praise and adoration of Him Who is Supreme and Whose name is Love." 85
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 30, 2012, 02:18:35 PM
THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
"The freedom we now enjoy in spirit will ultimately be enjoyed by the whole creation when it is reconciled to God, and this includes the whole of humanity, for God wills all mankind to be saved and to come into a realization of the truth (1Tim.2:4). When His purpose is accomplished, there will be no vessels of indignation left.
When the reconciliation of all is complete the joy of the universe will be full. When the purpose of the All-sufficient God has reached its consummation, and He is All in all, every heart will be filled with the true laughter which accompanies the praise and adoration of Him Who is Supreme and Whose name is Love." 85
This is so truly wonderful and beautiful, "Rejoice O Ye Heavens, Rejoice O Ye Earth!"
A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
"It is hard for man to accept how completely he is in the hands of God. Churchianity pictures God as sitting off to one side, waiting and pleading for His creatures to come to Him. Instead of that He is the active force; He is the mover of all things. We simply live and move and have our being in Him (Acts 17:28). If He does not move us we are not moved; if He does not enlighten us we are not enlightened.
The course that God has taken to accomplish His purpose for man is preeminently the right one for God is Almighty, so there is no question of His power to do whatever He wills, and He wills all men to be saved (1Tim. 2:3&4)." 86
RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
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Ain't it Wonderful
Behold, it is the Lord's doing, and it is wonderful in our sight!
Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2012, 06:19:08 AM
Ain't it Wonderful
Behold, it is the Lord's doing, and it is wonderful in our sight!
:iagree:
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
The introduction reads "Mistranslation of the Greek word 'aion' is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. Because the understanding of the eons and God's purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on important issues like judgment, and man's destiny. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after spiritual truth will be aided in their quest."
Here is a snippet from the writing itself. "During this present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), sin reigns, Satan who is said to be 'the god of this eon' (2Cor. 4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1Cor. 15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
In due time, He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom. 8:18-23)."
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OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – DR. JACK JACOBSON
"If the concept of universal restoration seems to be a modern idea, it's only because the understanding of this glorious plan of God is new to our modern minds. Universal restoration, in fact, is a truth one taught to and received by most of the saints of antiquity. The modern church has become blinded to the fact of universal restoration as given in the scriptures, but this is not a blindness that was shared by the early church."
This introduction is followed by quotes by many UR church leaders during the first six centuries of the Christian church.
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Quote from: rodgertutt on November 04, 2012, 01:56:51 PM
OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – DR. JACK JACOBSON
"If the concept of universal restoration seems to be a modern idea, it's only because the understanding of this glorious plan of God is new to our modern minds. Universal restoration, in fact, is a truth one taught to and received by most of the saints of antiquity. The modern church has become blinded to the fact of universal restoration as given in the scriptures, but this is not a blindness that was shared by the early church."
This introduction is followed by quotes by many UR church leaders during the first six centuries of the Christian church.
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Is that available for reading in context on the net?.....Link please if so :o)
Here ya go EW http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Jacobsen/ChurchFathers.htm (http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Jacobsen/ChurchFathers.htm) :thumbsup:
THX!
Something that I would like and would think there are quite a few others, if they could be contacted, that would also like: a perpetual calendar with a morning and evening meditation as these "snippets" are. The names of the days of the week would not be included, just each date, including leap day. I have a book like that, though only one page for each date, on "LOVE" and it is priceless. It has a different pastel color for each month and a faint season related illustration as a background to a rather dark ink color-related for the month in which the text is rendered. There are numerous possibilities for the physical makeup of such a calendar. The good ones are treasures for a lifetime. If you want to talk more about it leave me a personal message.
James (aka: reFORMer)
P.S. I thought you'd like the following which I wrote about the Apostle's Creed . . .
_________________________________________
Considerations of the Apostle's Creed
The Creeds have not been regarded as scripture by the people of God. They were created primarily as help for those who could not read and as a basic summary of what is believed by those who follow Jesus. The earliest form is called "The Apostle's Creed," and it is probably the most universally satisfying of the Creeds to this day.
The point of interest here is that most copies today have relegated the phrase, "descended into hell" to a footnote, if mentioned at all; and, without that phrase, it is now called "The Ecumenical Creed." What's this? We're universal (i.e., ecumenical) if we're not universalists?! It makes me wonder at the largeness and basic nature of this division in Christians' beliefs.
The fact that Jesus descended into hell and was victorious over it (a doctrine called "The Harrowing of Hell") was very popular with the earliest Gentile Christians, particularly as they considered the future state of their ancestors. This Biblical truth is also the death knell to a hell of eternal torture, a horrible evil not included to qualify as a basic belief of true Christians. Instead, the resurrecting Jesus ascends, "From which He is coming to judge the living and the dead."
The original word "flesh" has been exchanged for "body," (without notice) as in, "the resurrection of the 'body.'" I think the earliest word "flesh" is still to be preferred. "I believe in the resurrection of the flesh."
I dislike reverting to the word "catholic" to say: "I believe in the holy 'catholic' church," instead of translating it to say: "I believe in the holy universal church." Other than not tipping the hat to Romanism (where admittedly many Christians are,) is it too nearly recognition of "universalism" again?
Thanks for your food for thought James. :Chinscratch:
WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX
"That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We've portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it's up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.
We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation 'is not of him that willeth' (any decision we make of ourselves), 'nor of him that runneth' (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
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BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
"I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE WORLD BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD" Jn. 12:47
"When I first began to believe in the reconciliation of the world, I fell on my knees and put my head on the floor and cried tears of joy. The revelation came to me in a flash, like lightning and immediately I received it as truth.
God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. 2Cor.5:19.
All will be judged then reconciled back to God so that He will be All in all.
God is a consuming fire and will burn out all the dross from everyone." 91
MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
"As an escape from the doctrine of eternal torment, I at first embraced the doctrine of annihilation for the wicked, and for a little while tried to comfort myself with the belief that this life ended all for them. But the more I thought of it, the more it seemed to me that it would be a confession of serious failure on the part of the Creator, if He could find no way out of the problem of His creation, but to annihilate the creatures whom He had created.
One day a revelation came to me that vindicated God, and settled the whole problem forever. I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that 'as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.' As was the first, even so was the second. The 'all' in one case could not in fairness mean less than the all in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease. The salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw this that day on the tram-car on Market Street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it -- but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had a questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed -- somewhere and somehow God was going to make everything right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever." 92
Smith's book was my first exposure to UR. Her common sense approach made it all so clear. Praise God. He is a just God and a Savior. None will be lost.
Hannah Whiehall Smith and I had very similar experiences concerning ET, annihilation, and UR.
As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.' As was the first, even so was the second.
I heard a Baptist preacher say not long ago that "sure everyone will be made alive but most of them will be burning in hell forever". He says the wicked will live forever too but not to enjoy eternal life.
CHB
Me too. She was a smart lady.
When I was young I thought ET was right because the preachers I knew said so. When I got old enough to study the Bible and reason things out I came to think that ED was right. After the Lord brought me through the fire and opened my eyes I learned that the whole world would be saved. Hallelujah, praise the Lord :banana:.
You would think that everybody would at least want to study to see if this was true but most don't even want you to mention it, they probably think they will go to hell if they even think about it.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on November 07, 2012, 04:58:10 PM
Me too. She was a smart lady.
When I was young I thought ET was right because the preachers I knew said so. When I got old enough to study the Bible and reason things out I came to think that ED was right. After the Lord brought me through the fire and opened my eyes I learned that the whole world would be saved. Hallelujah, praise the Lord :banana:.
You would think that everybody would at least want to study to see if this was true but most don't even want you to mention it, they probably think they will go to hell if they even think about it.
CHB
They have been threatened with torture that lasts forever by people who they respected and were told had the very keys of the kingdom. They were reduced to seeing eternal destruction as a hope rather than as a defeat for God's grace over multitudes of beings in the universe.
Thank God for His grace. SHOUT IT FROM THE HOUSETOPS. If they call you the devil or a wolf in sheep's clothing or a false teacher or prophet- WEAR IT LIKE A BADGE Of HONOR AND GIVE GLORY TO GOD :dsunny:
Amen!!! I wish that everyone who understands about the salvation of all would shout it from the housetops but alas we don't.
Sometimes I feel like we are as bad as the et'rs, they believe most everybody is going to hell and burn forever and they are not shouting it from the housetops. We know nobody is going to hell forever and we don't shout it from the housetops either.
CHB
They don't shout it(ET) because many of them, in their heart of hearts, they can't accept it- because the Spirit does not bear witness, the Spirit will not say, Amen.
Why don't we shout it(UR)?
Quote from: CHB on November 08, 2012, 07:15:25 PM
Amen!!! I wish that everyone who understands about the salvation of all would shout it from the housetops but alas we don't.
Sometimes I feel like we are as bad as the et'rs, they believe most everybody is going to hell and burn forever and they are not shouting it from the housetops. We know nobody is going to hell forever and we don't shout it from the housetops either.
CHB
I shout it from more than eighty housetops (websites) almost every day. :declare: :winkgrin:
WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
"The inspired scriptures never speak of eternity. They describe nothing as eternal. They contain no term which itself bears our time sense of everlasting. As eternity is not a subject of revelation, our present object is to discover how and when this unscriptural term gained entrance into theology, with most disastrous results.
It may be stated, without fear of contradiction, that the more one explores into the early centuries of Christendom, the clearer does it become that a corrupt theology was alone responsible for displacing the teaching regarding the eons by a dogma respecting 'eternity.'"
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html
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Doesn't the scripture say that God alone is eternal?
I think that he is and if he alone is eternal than nothing else that scripture labels eternal can actually BE eternal
AND THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE..TO KNOW[BE ONE WITH] THE ONE TRUE GOD.
1 JOHN 5;19 WE KNOW THAT WE 'ORIGINATE' WITH GOD/WE KNOW THAT WE ARE
CHILDREN OF GOD[THE LITTLE CHILDREN WERE PARTAKERS OF FLESH AND BLOOD]
AND THAT THE WHOLE WORLD IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE EVIL ONE
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 09, 2012, 06:46:26 PM
Doesn't the scripture say that God alone is eternal?
I think that he is and if he alone is eternal than nothing else that scripture labels eternal can actually BE eternal
So many definition come into play here. For instance....
If eternal means always was and always will be then only God is eternal
If eternal means to live forever then a created being who is given or possesses unending life could be considered eternal.
Some people define eternal as forever, but without end doesnt necessarily mean eternal. Without beginning or end definitely does mean eternal- and that is God alone.
But the truth is, the words eternal and forever are a few steps of translation and interpretation out of "olam".
If we are using the first definition then I would say yes, only God is eternal, since He is the source of all things but He Himself has no source and therefore only He can be eternal, having always been, and enduring forever in the now, I AM THAT I AM.
Exo 15:18 The LORD(YHWH) shall reign for ever(olam olam H5769) and ever.H5703 ad)
Psa 10:16 The LORD(YHWH) is King for everH5769 and ever:H5703 (same)
This Psalm throws a monkey wrench in the gears
The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.
He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever. (Psa 21:1-4)
If olam olam means "age" or "world" and "ad" means either "eternity" or "terminus"(world without end, (age unending)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.H5703 ad
(Psa 37:29)
Thy throne, O God, is for ever(H5769olam olam) and ever:(H5703 ad)the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
(Psa 45:6)
It seems that "ad" means "unending ending" or "the end that never ends" or "the end that goes on forever" HAHA
Olam definitely means "indefinite period of time" or "other world" as in "unknowable", "mist", so
The scriptures are no help HAHAHA (just kidding)
Actually I think the scriptures are great help and prove out through usage that "context is everything" even in the Hebrew and Greek.
Some boldly proclaim that "ad" means eternal but the scriptures destroy us again in context in Job
Job 20:4 Knowest thou not this of old,(H5703 ad) since man was placed upon earth,......
Since it says clearly "ad", SINCE MAN WAS PLACED ON EARTH.....DOH! :doh:, our first definition of eternal(without beginning or end) only works when "ad" is conjoined with GOD.... proving my theory that words like "olam" and "ad" are defined by the subjects they are joined with, not by absolute independent definition.
Therefore, like the relentless pencil head I am I declare again that "aion" and "aionios" and "aidos" are only transliterations into Greek from "olam" and "ad"
YHWH means I AM THAT I AM or "SELF EXISTENT ONE". When olam olam ad are joined to YHWH....
יהוה מלך עולם ועד אבדו גוים מארצו׃ Psa 10:16 reading left to right, "
YHWH MELEK OLAM OLAM AD ABAD GOY GOY ERETS
Jehovah reigns ages unending undone peoples earth
or to paraphrase
Yahweh reigns forever, world without end- the nations perish and are undone.
In context the psalmist is comparing the eternal omnipotence of the Self Existent One with the nations that are like grass before the wind in comparison, in order to encourage the Israelites to trust and obey Him and not fear emulate their enemies, the heathen.
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace. Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.
I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.(olam olam ad) (Psa 45:13-17)
This seems to be a Messianic prophecy, for only the name of Jesus will be made a name worthy of unending praise(Phil 2:10, therefore He has given Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus........)
Psa 48:14 For this God(H430 Elohiym) is our GodH430 for ever and ever(olam olam ad): he will be our guide even unto(H5921 al- through, beyond) death.
In this verse our friendly KJV translaters translated ad as everlasting once and perpetual once- also translating olam olam into everlasting.
Hab 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting(olam olam) mountains were scattered, the perpetual(H5769 ad)hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.(olam olam)
Thank you for your exposition eaglesway.
MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe.
It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."
God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history.
The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages (mistranslated forever and ever) are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time.
It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before." 94
TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
Do you find your heart tardy to believe that God will have all mankind to be saved?" 1Tim. 2:4
"Those who would not yield an inch from the position that all have sinned means all, do not hesitate to rob God of His all in all shall be justified, all shall be reconciled, all shall be vivified, that God may be All in all.
This is God's grand goal: all saved, all justified, all reconciled, all vivified, that God may be All in all. This goal will see fruition when the eons have run their course. Do not confuse God's goal with His process." 95
Great! and Amen! :thumbsup:
QuoteDo not confuse God's goal with His process.
Love this! So true! :thumbsup:
MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
"The world hates God because of the picture Christianity has painted of Him. The doctrine of eternal torment is a teaching of demons; a myth. It infects the world via a series of false expressions, printed onto tracts and forced into sermons. Those who espouse and teach it are in full heed of deceiving spirits, though they know it not.
There must be a remedy, and there is. 2Timothy 2:15, 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.'
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying." 96
I listened to Martin Zender a lot on my way to UR belief. :thumbsup:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 12, 2012, 04:02:28 PM
I listened to Martin Zender a lot on my way to UR belief. :thumbsup:
Pray for Martin.
He is going through a rough time.
Here is part of a lengthy email he sent out this November 8th.
"I could sit here for hours trying to think of an easy or soft way to tell you what I have to tell you, but maybe there is no better way than to just say it: My wife has divorced me. I am sorry to have to start this communication to you as bluntly as that, but it is that blunt, that tragic, that cold, and that heartbreaking. I am still in shock over it. After only 16 months of marriage, the woman I was married to has quit our life together. There was nothing I could do to stop it. If I could have, I would have."
Note by Rodger:
As many of us know, belief in UR doesn't exempt us from experiencing life's tragedies.
I know from experience what Martin is going through. You feel like, "It seemed so obviously God's leading when we were together" and now it makes you doubt your relationship with God because if you were wrong about God's leading there...
My resolution was like Martins, it wasn't me that decided the marriage was over and we don't have control of anyone else's spiritual relationship.
The enemy of our souls is always seeking whom he may devour. That is why we are to be watchful. Lot could not save his wife, because to each one is given the stewardship of their own soul. In an age where love is growing cold because iniquity abounds, the ties that bind are weakened and the brokenness of the world and the fruits of death and chaos are all around us like Noah's flood, rising up to the gunwhales of the ark, our safety- Jesus. Unfortunately, not everyone wants into the ark because the door is opened by picking up a cross. For some, that is to high a price to pay for deliverance.
Aw, that's horrible for Martin. :bsad: And ded and eaglesway that's true, just because someone decides to leave doesn't mean it wasn't God that brought you together.
Update: Martin Zender has remarried, several months ago and seems to be very happy with this.
Unfortunately Diane, it is Martin's newest wife (the one that you are referring to) that has very recently divorced him.
That is what hurts him so much, the fact that two wives left him unexpectedly.
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 12, 2012, 07:36:03 PM
Unfortunately Diane, it is Martin's newest wife (the one that you are referring to) that has very recently divorced him.
That is what hurts him so much, the fact that two wives left him unexpectedly.
Oh My!! I didn't know that! Thanks for the correction. Yes, that would be devastating for anyone. :HeartThrob:
THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"Without God's Spirit the 'depths of God' remain unknown. What an essential factor this is in the believer's quest!
When God's immense love evokes us to a higher plain, nothing will thwart our yielding to Him. Our past illusions must fade away with all of its façade in order that a more accurate realization of God and the depths of God can be grasped in prelude to the ultimate retrieving of all to God through Christ so He truly will be All in everyone. He shall be 'All in all' in the total kaleidoscope envelope of LOVE. This is the Spirit-Reality Whom we should unabatedly proclaim to those who have ears to hear." 97
NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"It is not a matter of if, only a matter of when each individual will respond to the irresistible call of God's love – a love filled with such peace and calmness that no one will be able to withstand its comfort indefinitely.
The power of God's love will attract like a magnet EVERYONE to their safe consolation within the confines of reconciliation. This, my dear friends is what 'God being All in all' is all about. The happy tidings are that none will be eternally lost or destroyed.
When the Holy Spirit's vision arrives within us, then and only then will we be able to grasp the fact that God's love does not contain the words 'eternally lost or destroyed' in its vocabulary." 98
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
"Annihilation is only one step from its false associate 'eternal torment.' When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair comes showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED? - chapters three and four
(If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
and
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
99
A snippet from 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture." 100
100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
INTRODUCTION: "The Scriptures analyzed in this book declare that much more was accomplished by Christ than traditionally taught. May your eyes be enlightened to see the joy that Jesus saw as He hung on the tree of crucifixion. May the traditions of the elders fall as scales from your eyes to see the full magnitude of the victory of Jesus Christ! When they do, your Bible will appear to be a brand new book, full of the power of God's love to be victorious over all things." 101
A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
" 'For we must needs die, and are as water spilt upon the ground which cannot be gathered up again, yet doth God devise means that His banished be not expelled from Him' (2Sam.14:14). The entire passage from 2Sam.14:1-21 shows that no matter how far one may stray from the Lord and undergo internal banishment from a sense of acceptance, nevertheless, our merciful Lord God Himself has devised means whereby His banished ones would not be expelled forever from Him. 'For out of Him, and through Him, and for Him are all. To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' (Rom. 11:36). 'For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.' (Rom. 11:32 CLNT)." 102
Rodger quoted, "The entire passage from 2Sam.14:1-21 shows that no matter how far one may stray from the Lord and undergo internal banishment from a sense of acceptance, nevertheless, our merciful Lord God Himself has devised means whereby His banished ones would not be expelled forever from Him."
"You say you've walked 10,000 miles away? Dontcha know that it's only one step back?" - Petra
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 18, 2012, 05:12:29 PM
Rodger quoted, "The entire passage from 2Sam.14:1-21 shows that no matter how far one may stray from the Lord and undergo internal banishment from a sense of acceptance, nevertheless, our merciful Lord God Himself has devised means whereby His banished ones would not be expelled forever from Him."
"You say you've walked 10,000 miles away? Dontcha know that it's only one step back?" - Petra
I believe that sooner or later, according to God's perfect timing for each individual, God will effectively influence everyone to take that step.
THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
"May we get a glimpse of Christ's wondrous Person as we peer into Sacred Writ. As we go back before the ages of time, through the eons of the Scriptures, forward to the grand finale, to the consummation of the ages, to that day when total reconciliation is completed and eternity continues.
'every knee bowing, celestial
and terrestrial and subterranean,
and every tongue acclaiming that
Jesus Christ is Lord, for the
glory of the Father'
God would receive no glory merely to see the unbelievers agree that Jesus is Lord, but too late, thus going off to destruction. Nay! The blood of the cross will prevail in every situation, eliminating all sins. What august glory this will bring to the Father as every last one of His creatures acclaim His beloved Son as their Lord!" 103
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency. In the brilliant glory of His ultimate the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power and wisdom and love.
During the final eons every creature in the heavens and on the earth and under the earth will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them, and every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Thus will all ultimately be justified." 104
THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
"All men will be saved. But God isn't trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.
Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace. As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.
God not only 'allows' evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day." 105
THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
"The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free. Now this word 'destroy' does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect. When Christ took the keys from the prison keeper he, Satan, lost all power and authority. Christ made his office of no effect (Heb. 2:14&15).
While prophets of doom forecast calamity and destruction, the mind of Christ speaks and lights our world with the vision of universal restoration and reconciliation.
Paul told of a great victory where every knee would bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul did not say that only a small number will bow and confess, but he said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. And no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. What a glorious day that will be when every foot steps forth in the river of life up to the ankle, and from the ankle up to the knee. Every knee shall bow!
We are not an accident! We are not a mistake! No one has been overlooked by the Creator. All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.
When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river." 106
HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
"Who could have peace in the Christian hope while overwhelmed with the consciousness that many of those dearest to us are even right now shrieking hopelessly for watery relief from fiery torments? If any can be happy under such a burden of woe, are they hardened to insensibility; or do they really take their creed seriously?
Do believers in eternal hell torment really believe it, in their careless unconcern for the unsaved, or do they just give formal and thoughtless assent to their creeds. A sincere contemplation of such an infinite spectacle of woe as they present about hell is enough to unseat the reason of every believer of it if it weighs on his mind as it should if true. It would be appalling to know the number of all those who thought they had committed 'the unpardonable sin,' another erroneous tradition, and that they were hopelessly hell-bound because of it, and as a result became maniacs and suicides.
Yet in utter disregard of the frightful results of their hideous pagan ideas, the eternal hell torment evangelists would like to unchristianize those of us who dare to question their views by turning the searchlight of truth on their errors.
After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go? Not back to hell, for it then will be no more. Not back into death, for 'there shall be no more death.' Only one destiny will be possible for them, and that is the one declared in Is. 26:9, and that is correction through judgment." 107
When confronted with the above snippet, ET'ers almost always say. "It won't bother me because the bible says that we will no longer remember the things of this world because of the glories of heaven.
IMO, this also maligns the character of God as much as ET itself. What kind of God would erase our memory of eternal torment so that we wouldn't see or remember he is torturing our former friends and family? (That would be IF ET were true.)
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 23, 2012, 05:21:34 PM
When confronted with the above snippet, ET'ers almost always say. "It won't bother me because the bible says that we will no longer remember the things of this world because of the glories of heaven.
IMO, this also maligns the character of God as much as ET itself. What kind of God would erase our memory of eternal torment so that we wouldn't see or remember he is torturing our former friends and family? (That would be IF ET were true.)
Right you are ded! :iagree:
LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
"The lake of fire will be abolished when it burns itself out because there is no evil left for it to feed upon, and the whole universe will throb with joy when the second death is abolished with the successful completion of the great and glorious work the Lord Jesus will bring to full fruition with the perfecting of all in the heavens and on earth.
What a prospect! God's purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) fulfilled in perfect accord with His irresistible will. 'And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, 'Unto Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for the ages of the ages (Rev. 5:13) – a grand Hallelujah Chorus echoing through the boundless universe and proclaiming that God IS Love." 108
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 23, 2012, 05:21:34 PM
When confronted with the above snippet, ET'ers almost always say. "It won't bother me because the bible says that we will no longer remember the things of this world because of the glories of heaven.
IMO, this also maligns the character of God as much as ET itself. What kind of God would erase our memory of eternal torment so that we wouldn't see or remember he is torturing our former friends and family? (That would be IF ET were true.)
This meaning that what is REALLY HAPPENING means nothing if we are unaware of it. Whew! That's twisted :doh:
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16)."
EDITOR'S NOTE: Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
109
Absolutely Rodger.
Since being UR, I have always believed in the salvation of angels and the deciever. I just think that God has a plan of salvation that is different for them. I believe Christ became human to save humans from the "sins of the flesh" I just think that it's basically none of our business so we're not told. Paul said that even the angels weren't told all about the human plan for salvation. Perhaps, the angels seeing all humans reconciled, will be overcome when God extends his love and forgiveness to them. Perhaps He has a plan that we as humans cannot even concieve of?
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 24, 2012, 06:07:02 PM
Absolutely Rodger.
Since being UR, I have always believed in the salvation of angels and the deciever. I just think that God has a plan of salvation that is different for them. I believe Christ became human to save humans from the "sins of the flesh" I just think that it's basically none of our business so we're not told. Paul said that even the angels weren't told all about the human plan for salvation. Perhaps, the angels seeing all humans reconciled, will be overcome when God extends his love and forgiveness to them. Perhaps He has a plan that we as humans cannot even concieve of?
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
(Eph 3:8-11)
Here is the point of view of a few other URs on this subject.
"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote)
Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." (end quote)
#197 – AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued. (end quote)
#173 – ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all." (end quote)
#137 – CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the lustre of the universe." (end quote)
#194 – Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself." (end quote)
#196 – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
Before good and evil, there was no need for redemption. Before redemption, there was no consciousness of gratitude, no joy and relief of forgiveness, no rejoicing over restoration-nor understanding of boundless love. Therefore God, who created everything, breathing intellect, will and emotion into every sentient creation, has planned to better create, indeed to finish His creation, by re-creation; by the fall and the restoration of all; having added within this newness a deep understanding of sacrificial love- the overwhelming beauty of it. He has revealed in Jesus Christ the very root of it, making Himself known through the sacrifice of one so beautiful and precious to Him- and by this sacrifice displaying the purest manifestation of the nature of the one true God who after all, created us only to share with us, to know us, to be known by us, and to dwell with us in a glorious abounding union of immortality and infinite wisdom- within the divine freedom of universal love.
For God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness", is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Where much is forgiven, there is much love.
:thumbsup: :Pray: :iagree: Amen
Quote from: eaglesway on November 25, 2012, 07:57:03 PM
Before good and evil, there was no need for redemption. Before redemption, there was no consciousness of gratitude, no joy and relief of forgiveness, no rejoicing over restoration-nor understanding of boundless love. Therefore God, who created everything, breathing intellect, will and emotion into every sentient creation, has planned to better create, indeed to finish His creation, by re-creation; by the fall and the restoration of all; having added within this newness a deep understanding of sacrificial love- the overwhelming beauty of it. He has revealed in Jesus Christ the very root of it, making Himself known through the sacrifice of one so beautiful and precious to Him- and by this sacrifice displaying the purest manifestation of the nature of the one true God who after all, created us only to share with us, to know us, to be known by us, and to dwell with us in a glorious abounding union of immortality and infinite wisdom- within the divine freedom of universal love.
For God who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness", is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Where much is forgiven, there is much love.
Good stuff eaglesway!
I like this comment by Ray Prinzing
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption,
BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture." 110
Rodger- I guess "125 nuts for calvinists to crack is a book. Is it available? and even more important to me ... is it available for free? :laughing7:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 27, 2012, 04:34:33 PM
Rodger- I guess "125 nuts for calvinists to crack is a book. Is it available? and even more important to me ... is it available for free? :laughing7:
Several years ago I got my hard copy free from
Grace Baptist Church
5310 West Avenue L
Quartz Hill, CA 93536
805-943-3825
You might want to try phoning first since the address might have changed although since it is the address of a church it is not likely to have changed.
ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
"This is a power packed and mind shaking question!!
To wit:
How can every creature which is in the heavens and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea and all that are in them (describing every living soul made by God) which includes everyone that has come from every dimension of life or death, or everything that came out from God ... say, Blessing and honor and glory and power unto the Lamb Jesus Christ the heart of the Father, if they are not all going to be enjoying Him as we who now believe are? Does this not describe and give witness to the day of the reconciliation of all unto God where they came from?"
God will not be defeated in the slightest --- for 'There are diversities of operations, but it is the same God Who worketh all in all (1Cor. 12:6).
111
Amen Rodger - just as all of creation groaned when sin entered the world, all creation will rejoice in reconciliation.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 28, 2012, 04:13:28 PM
Amen Rodger - just as all of creation groaned when sin entered the world, all creation will rejoice in reconciliation.
:HeartThrob:
THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe. 112
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 28, 2012, 04:13:28 PM
Amen Rodger - just as all of creation groaned when sin entered the world, all creation will rejoice in reconciliation.
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(Rev 5:13)
:cloud9:
THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
"When one looks at the first 500 years of Christianity, not one creed even hinted at "Eternal Torment;" not one creed denied "Universal Restoration;" no church council condemned "Universal Restoration."
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
When one looks at the lives of those church leaders who brought the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" into the church, we find a long string of envyings, power plays, persecutions, character assassinations, book burnings, murders, and tortures. They became like the god they created – tormentors and murderers! They exchanged the truth for a lie and brought darkness to the world – the Dark Ages." 113
Excellent!
On the way to becoming a teacher of UR I said to myself, "A good way to determine the validity of anything, or lack thereof, is to examine its beginnings"- and so I did, and the historical study I embarked upon was a primary foundation stone of my understanding of UR, and gaining the courage to boldly proclaim it.
ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
This is a writing showing that the Doctrine of Eternal Death finds no support in the Greek or Hebrew texts. While the teaching makes the Christian God more loving and merciful than the Doctrine of Eternal Torment, there is a much more Scriptural way of proving that our Father's mercy extends far beyond "Eternal Death," or "Eternal Punishment."
It can be read on the internet here
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
114
Excellent presntation on the issue.
THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE & GARY AMIRAULT
"Christian leaders have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is 'the inerrant' translation of the so-called original texts. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years, and there have been thousands of corrections!
This world needs to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Read the prophets and you will not find a place of eternal torment for the wicked. If the Creator loved us and created such a horrible place, He would surely have plastered the warning everywhere. The KJV has the phrase 'everlasting punishment' only once. Yet, when looking at those words in the Greek, even those two references turn out to be 'age-during correction.' Again we ask, if eternal torment be the horrible fate of most of mankind, why such a little warning?
The Scriptures tell us the mind of man cannot conceive the height, length, depth, and width of our Father's love for His creation. His ways are much higher than our in all areas, including His justice, love, and wisdom. He wounds, but like a doctor, to bring about healing. He says 'Vengeance is Mine' knowing only He can return good for evil, an innocent life for a guilty one. He overcomes His enemies with good and tells you to do the same. His love never fails. Believe it. It will never fail anyone, including you. You can now enter into your rest. 'For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth, of things in the heavens (Col. 1:20).
115
A BRAND NEW EXCELLENT SHORT WRITING BY MARTIN ZENDER
MEET THE WOMAN WHO SAVED HERSELF – by Martin Zender
http://www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF12.pdf
Truly excellent. Sums up the ET position. I love Martin.
Roger, I loved the Zender piece. Thank you.
Quote from: Deena on December 03, 2012, 04:32:32 PM
Roger, I loved the Zender piece. Thank you.
My pleasure :dsunny:
THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
"Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.
What the Holy Spirit mean by 'fire and brimstone' is 'divine purification,' or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.
Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be 'All in all.' When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, 'the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.' "
116
OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
"God is a despot. Paul in Ephesians 1:11, speaks of 'the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.' Yes, God exercise a despotic sway over the whole universe, but we are thankful for this because He is Love. Though He will brook no opposition to the furtherance of His purpose, He is never a tyrant. When He inflicts evil upon any, it is always in order that good may follow. His sovereign will is the ultimate salvation and blessing of all, that He may be All in all.
For all creation in its need,
The future is engraved
In words of life, for all to read,
'In grace shall you be saved.'
Let every mental conflict cease,
Let every barrier fall,
For grace removes each bar to peace
Till Thou art All in all.
O God, how glorious is Thy grace!
How radiantly divine!
It stretches out its wide embrace,
To make all creatures Thine.
When God is All in all, the whole creation will have become His achievement, and every member will be a beneficiary of His OVERWHELMING GRACE."
117
THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
"Love conquers all, for it is the love of God that allows humanity to see its frailty that in the bitter dregs it may choose life. I thank the Lord that the plan of redemption wasn't a stop gap measure but a well thought out plan that in the fullness of time, all will have Christ as their head. Victory in Jesus!
Before creation there was no time. Since creation there has been time. But with the consummation of things and God becoming All in all, time will end, and sin, which is limited by time shall end. Yet, God and creation shall go on.
If God cannot surmount the evil in the world and turn it all into good, then there is a power equal and opposite to Him. But sin isn't eternal. The cross of Calvary isn't a 'hope so' move by God, but rather, a well conceived thought out solution to the problem of sin. There is an end to sin and to the death it causes. All shall be swallowed up into victory. Some, God has planned to accept Him now. Others, like Pharaoh, He hardens their heart. But being a righteous Judge He will show wrath on those who need it to cleanse them of their fallen nature.
The plan of God is such that His grace, that unmerited favor, will cause man and all of creation to be restored. Great was the joy of the father for the return of his son. How much more so will God be rejoicing at the restitution of all.
A father never beats a child to death for wrong, but corrects and loves regardless. Even so is our Heavenly Father. The mercy and love of God is to be so revealed that Jesus shall be All in all.
The purpose for the present is to save some. The purpose for the future is to save all. Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Even he who dies in sin shall be saved as by fire. Victorious grace covers a larger redemption than many would consider."
118
A Plan of Ages which we are in the midst of, looking forward to the blessed hope and our adoption as sons.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:4-10)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 07, 2012, 08:39:35 AM
A Plan of Ages which we are in the midst of, looking forward to the blessed hope and our adoption as sons.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:4-10)
:thumbsup:
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
119
Ahhhhh, Ain it Wonnerful!!!!
Quote from: eaglesway on December 07, 2012, 09:44:25 PM
Ahhhhh, Ain it Wonnerful!!!!
:dsunny:
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Heb. 11:3 should read, 'Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God.' The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:16 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, hath He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.' (Alexander Thompson's translation)
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons, all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20). Only as one sees the plan of the ages does he see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race. When you perceive the truth concerning the ages your Bible will become a new and more wonderful Book than you knew you had."
120
THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
121
Anybody know how to contact Bert Bauman? Is he still alive? The last I knew he was with New Day Fellowship in St. Paul, MN, if memory serves me. I knew him and met with a church group he was Pastor of prior to New Day. I would love to have a good catch up conversation with him. I wonder what all he wrote over the years...
Quote from: reFORMer on December 10, 2012, 09:37:01 AM
Anybody know how to contact Bert Bauman? Is he still alive? The last I knew he was with New Day Fellowship in St. Paul, MN, if memory serves me. I knew him and met with a church group he was Pastor of prior to New Day. I would love to have a good catch up conversation with him. I wonder what all he wrote over the years...
ReFORMer
The address in Bert Bauman's book THE GOSPEL is
REDEMPTION HAUS
218 Central Avenue
Osseo, Minnesota, 55369
They might know how to contact him.
WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
"May some poor soul whose loved one has died without receiving Christ as their Saviour, find a measure of relief in the assurance that they are neither now, nor ever shall be, tortured endlessly and consciously in an inferno of fire wrongly described as the eternal abode of the dammed. Instead, they will be deprived of life until the lake of fire which is the second death no longer exists."
122
That is a great quote Rodger. The only thing I see wrong is that in a short quote, one cannot prove a doctrinal position. People that are concerned about their loved ones eternity may start searching the scriptures however because of it and eventually see the truth and get the relief they seek. The good news for all mankind is really good news for ALL mankind.
MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
"The teaching of the ultimate exaltation of Jesus Christ and the ultimate reconciliation of all men unto Him, make God's judgments consistent with His plan of creation. God's judgments become understandable, purposeful, and constructive without violating any aspect of justice, truth, or mercy. If just one person were condemned to eternal torment, then God's purpose in creation would have been defeated. God's judgments are redemptive.
The end result of God's judgments is, 'That in the Name of Jesus every knee will bow, celestial, terrestrial, and subterranean, and every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10,11). God planned for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, both in the heavens, and on earth (Eph. 1:10). Amplified Bible
123
CORRECTION: I have replaced snippet #72 with the following
#72 - A snippet from GOD'S METHODS WITH MAN – G. Campbell Morgan (pages 185-186)
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. Men have divided the church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a though conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible."
G. Campbell Morgan
In response to that statement, the SCRIPTURE STUDIES CONCERN editor (unnamed) wrote in 1956
"We cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One Who is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages. God's punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour."
ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
"Eternity and its synonyms are grievous mistranslations of Hebrew and Greek words. Both the Old and the New Testament misuses indicate a biased mind-set which hides God's true nature and purpose. Based upon decisions made in this life on earth, it is supposed that the vast multitudes that miss heaven enter an eternal hell of burning torment and anguish.
The uniform translation of aion and its adjective form aionios solves many inconsistencies in Scripture study. Jesus came to give life eonian, a quality of relationship with the Father through Himself, a life that is only the earnest of much more to come.
The most shameful consequences of this error are the grotesque images which Christianity projects of God, Who is really so loving, wise, and powerful. God's love nature corresponds with His purpose. His wisdom and majesty dominate the ages through which all mankind will be drawn to God's goal of creating man in His own image, 'that God may be All in all' (1Cor. 15:28).
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JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF16 CHAPTERS) J. PRESTON EBY
A great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
Internet version
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Also watch the testimony video of J. Preston Eby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
Thank you rodger, I'm grateful for the ton of UR information you supply to us here. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 15, 2012, 04:24:55 PM
Thank you rodger, I'm grateful for the ton of UR information you supply to us here. :Peace2:
:URWelcome:
Blame it on Gary Amirault though :friendstu:
I'm just a co-conspirator - an accessory after the fact. :winkgrin:
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3213148682308877255#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
FUNDAMENTALS OR BASIS OF BELIEF – Thomas Griffith
"We will get good out of evil. Our gracious Educator does evolve for us out of corruption, temptation and sin, new purposes, new skill, new triumphs.
Beyond the overruling of intermediate evil into subserviency to a higher good, what has been superinduced as a transition state of things is therefore seen to be necessary only for a time. It will pass away with the functions which it is made to fulfill. It will at last be superseded by the highest good for everyone."
126
DOOMED TO BE SAVED – Frances Power Cobbe
"I think if we were not caught in the meshes of that wretched Augustinian scheme of theology which postulates eternal hell to compel us to accept it, -- I think, I say, if it were not for this theology, all Christendom must have long ago come to see, that, at the very least, God feels towards a sinner as a saint would do, and not as a man less good, or wise, or merciful.
We do not think man's evil can, in the long run of the ages, finally outspeed God's ever-pursuing mercy. He must overtake us sooner or later. We may temporarily choose evil rather than good, and vileness instead of nobleness, and be ungrateful and sinful. But God will get the better of us at last."
127
:HeartThrob: THE MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD – Gary Siglar
The message for the world today is only one --- that God has reconciled you back to Himself. He didn't just redeem a few. He didn't just forgive a few. He didn't determine that a few would be saved and the rest would be eternally lost. God has a plan that is so perfect and worked out to restore all of mankind back to their source.
If you understand that no matter where you are today God chose you, before the foundation of the world, that you would be holy and without blame before Him in love. If you can believe this simple word you will rejoice.
I know the condition of carnal humanity. I know the condition of some people who love God. I know the carnal condition that most of us are in. The truth is --- and the truth will set you free --- you are holy, unblameable, and irreprovable in His sight. Not in your carnal adamic life, but in Christ. Christ is holy, unblemished, and undefiled. If you can accept that you will be that experientially. If you can't accept that you won't yet experience it but you still will eventually as God brings you into the knowledge of your true identity.
God has never, ever, made one human being that will fail except for a good purpose, because He works all things after the counsel of His own will. Known by God are all His works from beginning unto end.
Gary Sigler
http://sigler.org/
This is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful.
It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :cloud9:
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid. :HeartThrob:
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Hi Rodger,
I never read King James nor was brought up in a church thast used it. My parents were unsaved and I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. It frankly is another language to me. I have no idea what the poem above said except I'm guessing it's in favor of UR. Can you tell me please? :dsunny:
By the way, the language thing was a helpful drive for me to investigate deeper when I heard of people that were "King James only" or burn in hell. Poor germans, russians, swedes, spanish, portugese, etc. And tough luck for average american kids like me that never heard King James except on TV when a religious nut case was portrayed. :dunno2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 20, 2012, 03:28:39 PM
Hi Rodger,
I never read King James nor was brought up in a church thast used it. My parents were unsaved and I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. It frankly is another language to me. I have no idea what the poem above said except I'm guessing it's in favor of UR. Can you tell me please? :dsunny:
By the way, the language thing was a helpful drive for me to investigate deeper when I heard of people that were "King James only" or burn in hell. Poor germans, russians, swedes, spanish, portugese, etc. And tough luck for average american kids like me that never heard King James except on TV when a religious nut case was portrayed. :dunno2:
Yup, it
sure is in favor of UR, ded2daworld,
in a very powerful way.
The early Christians believed that not only the sheep lambs, but the goat kids would be saved too.
Why not read it again with that in mind.
This is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful.
It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :cloud9:
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid. :HeartThrob:
I get to the line "And then she smiled," and tears of joy come into my eyes. :HeartThrob:
Bet it was on His left shoulder, just over His heart :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 21, 2012, 06:27:14 AM
Bet it was on His left shoulder, just over His heart :o)
:HeartThrob:
And the smile had to be a smile of God-given calm assurance, not a smile of delusional wishful thinking.
Isn't that a precious thought?!! :gimmefive:
A POEM BY A.G. CAMPBELL
I deem they greatly err, who hold
That He Who made the human soul,
Will not its destinies control
For final good – but, wrathful, fold
It in the shrouds of hopeless woe,
Of deathless gloom, of quenchless fire,
The creatures of His vengeful ire,
Whence it can never ransom know.
So, in the world to come, His love
Shall freely unto all abound;
Even prisoners in the depths profound
Shall see His kind face beam above
Their dreary cells, and hear His voice,
Unheeded once, in mercy call, --
"Turn, turn to Me and live!" and all
Shall hear the summons and rejoice.
Lost men, lost angels, shall return, --
Satan himself be purified;
Death shall be conquered in his pride,
And hell's fierce fires shall cease to burn.
Then shall our God be All in all –
His love bear universal sway;
His love preserves all souls for aye,
Nor shall the weakest fear a fall.
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That was a wonderful poem.
Was the blood meant just for thee,
Who once upon a time,
the enemy
of Christ
(alienated in mind and hostile)
Nevertheless He did reconcile
By
His blood-
So precious that once sprinkled
Opened the eyes
of your blinded heart?
Tell me,
Was that blood just for thee?
Then why did He,
Pleading from the cross
In agony
Cry
"Forgive them Father,
they know not what they do"?
Did the Father,
(disregarding the value of the sacrifice)
Reply,
"I will my son.....
but just a few?"
Remember Messiah's prophecy,
"If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me"
Reconsider Reconciliation as
intended for the whole creation.
The apostle Paul explains it thus,
"For as in Adam all men died
So all in Christ will be made alive".
Was that blood shed just for us?
The apostle John says "all" again
He is the propitiation for our sins
and not just for us
but for the whole world also
All.
So.
For the Father made all His fulness dwell
in Him and set on Him such worth
to reconcile all things back to Himself by the blood of His cross
whether things in heaven or things of earth.
To gather all in one in Christ
Till every knee bow,
every tongue confess
Jesus is Lord!
The Father fulfilling the Son's request?
Yes and Amen,
Yes!
So I will ask you this once more,
Was the blood meant just for thee?
Or for everyone who has ever been
and everyone who will ever be.
Thanks for another good poem eaglesway
FROM A SERMON ON UNIVERSALISM – Stopford A. Brooke
"That Christ should have descended to assume the nature of all men, only to cast them away as refuse to be burned, does so contradict His revelation that it is no wonder that the idea of everlasting damnation should have destroyed men's belief.
No, the earthly dead will move on, a mighty stream to mingle in the ocean of the righteousness of God, on that far off but certain day when God will be All in all."
130
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 23, 2012, 02:27:47 PM
FROM A SERMON ON UNIVERSALISM – Stopford A. Brooke
"That Christ should have descended to assume the nature of all men, only to cast them away as refuse to be burned, does so contradict His revelation that it is no wonder that the idea of everlasting damnation should have destroyed men's belief.
This is true and so tragic as to make one weep :crywipe:
Quote
No, the earthly dead will move on, a mighty stream to mingle in the ocean of the righteousness of God, on that far off but certain day when God will be All in all."
This is true and so comforting as to restore ones peace and joy within the gospel of God. :dsunny:
ENIGMAS OF LIFE, POSTSCRIPTUM – W.R. GREG
"Given a hell of torment and despair for millions of our friends and fellow men, can the good enjoy heaven except by becoming bad, -- miraculously changed and changed deplorably for the worst. In a word, putting on, along with the white garments of the redeemed, a coldness and hardness of heart? Does not this simple reflection suffice to disperse into thin air the current notions of a world of everlasting pain?"
131
billions even
ET'ers refuse to believe the notion of everyone being ultimately reconciled
because they refuse to give up the notion that there are some people that really deserve to be tortured forever.
THE SHAKING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH – Charles Kingsley
"We do not deny that the wages of sin is death. We do not deny the necessity and certainty of punishment. Only tell us not that it must be endless, and thereby destroy its whole purpose. We too believe in an eternal fire, but we believe its existence to be not a curse but a blessing. That fire is God Himself Who taketh away the sins of the world, and of Whom it is therefore written, 'Our God is a consuming fire."
132
Amen!
POEM BY HELEN BRONTE
There lives within my heart,
A hope long nursed by me;
And should its cheering ray depart,
How dark my soul would be.
That as in Adam all have died,
In Christ shall all men live;
And ever round His throne abide
Eternal praise to give.
That even the wicked shall at last
Be fitted for the skies;
And when their dreadful doom is past
To light and life arise.
I ask not how remote the day,
Nor what the sinner's woe,
Before their dross is purged away;
Enough for me to know,
That when the cup of wrath is drained,
The metal purified,
They'll cling to what they once disdained
And live by Him Who died.
133
So Sweet :o)
I love that poem--in Christ even the wicked have hope. Praise to our just God and Savior.
DISPUTED POINTS – George Dawson
"Take the doctrine in which most of you were brought up – that every man who is not saved will go to hell, and that hell is a constant fire whereunto a man must be condemned forever.
I am told this is in the Scriptures. I can't find it; but if it were there I would not believe it. I was told that it was so, and I have no doubt I said it was so. But now I disbelieve it. If this is backsliding, I will backslide.
Well, how came we ever to doubt this horrific doctrine? Not that any commentator with marvelous exegesis showed us that the text did not mean that; -- for I am but little interested in the quibble that the fire burns forever, but that the thing put into the fire burn only so long as it is capable of burning.
What has put hell fire out is a better understanding of God, and a fuller comprehension of the quality of God's love. The love of God conquers the assertion of orthodoxy."
134
You mean, the voice of God speaking in my heart(the Voice of God walked with Adam in the cool of the garden, communion God at the tree of life)- can overcome the voice of orthodoxy screaming lies into my mind(Taskmaster, father of lies at the tree of knowledge of good and evil)!!!!!!
Oh My!
Quote from: eaglesway on December 31, 2012, 10:03:21 PM
You mean, the voice of God speaking in my heart(the Voice of God walked with Adam in the cool of the garden, communion God at the tree of life)- can overcome the voice of orthodoxy screaming lies into my mind(Taskmaster, father of lies at the tree of knowledge of good and evil)!!!!!!
Oh My!
:gimmefive:
YUSEF – J. Ross Browne
"Oh, ye who are wrapped in the selfishness of a single idea! – ye who bode eternal destruction to others! Look out upon the world and learn that there are millions of human hearts as sincere and devoted as yours, who perceive a divine power great and good and merciful enough to save all, even to the weakest and most benighted."
135
BODY AND MIND – George Moore
"Every soul that is out of keeping with divine order must remain, in the license of a perverse will, forever vile, until restored to the dominion of truth by the attractiveness of light, and the miseries of darkness."
136
CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe."
137
So wondermous and beautious :o) And TRUE!
Indeed, regardless of what it might appear, God is having His perfect will. What a comfort to know all is in His hands, and yes, even the least deserving. Could it be otherwise? Can God only love those who love Him? Praise God, He loves those who cannot for whatever reason love Him, till like the person being tickled, the one being loved cries uncle. Who having seen Him could resist? Let the eyes of the blind be opened that the whole world may rejoice! Come beautiful One and make yourself known.
Quote from: Deena on January 04, 2013, 01:34:44 PM
Indeed, regardless of what it might appear, God is having His perfect will. What a comfort to know all is in His hands........... He loves those who cannot for whatever reason love Him........... Let the eyes of the blind be opened that the whole world may rejoice! Come beautiful One and make yourself known.
Something you touched upon here that struck a note, or should I say a chord, concerning the "whole world", the entire history of the human race. We have been on the planet for about 150,000 years or so, best as science can figure out. During almost all those years humankind has never known of a coming Savior. What must be the number of souls who have passed through this planetary environs? A trillion? Two trillion? Many more? Almost all of whom had no knowledge of a Savior..........It just doesn't seem fair does it?
Does it seem unfair to anyone that most of the human race has existed feeling doomed & without hope upon the expiration of their last breathe? None of the civilizations that have passed on before us had our creature comforts. Sickness, pain and short life of only about 25 years was the most common lifespan, their cultures often ending when natural disasters & plagues brought about their demise.
So finally when recorded history commenced, the Greeks & Mesopotamia conjured up their "gods", all a final desperate cry of mankind for their Creator to reveal himself. Finally he did, but why did it require tens of thousands of years? What was God thinking all this time about us & our pleadings to know from whence we came?
"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
(Act 17:24-31)
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:9-12)
Good questions Paul. In my darker moods I often contemplate that people are but grass to be mowed, sheep for slaughter, but even in this I must believe there is something happening that we do not understand. The extent of human suffering and man's propensity for evil that we do to each other is confounding. Why? Is the natural question. I don't have the answer, but perhaps Job does--though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. You have good questions. Anyone got a good answer?
IMO, the way things are between god, people and things boils down to three words: Selfish or selfless
Quote from: Deena on January 05, 2013, 02:09:15 PM
Good questions Paul. In my darker moods I often contemplate that people are but grass to be mowed, sheep for slaughter, but even in this I must believe there is something happening that we do not understand. The extent of human suffering and man's propensity for evil that we do to each other is confounding. Why? Is the natural question. I don't have the answer, but perhaps Job does--though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. You have good questions. Anyone got a good answer?
Like yourself Deena, I'm always searching for answers to my questions when also in my darker moods, and I have enough of them. From the pulpits of our religious organizations what we get for explanations are words strung together which form platitudes but do nothing to console our spirit concerning our toil here.
For example, since the 2000 years our Saviour trod the surface of this speck of a planet as it hurtles its way through a vast cosmos, is but a sliver of time compared to our 150,000 years of existence. I find myself doing some math as I'm prone to do ever so frequently, eg, 2000/150000= 0.013=1.3%. In only 1.3% of total years of human existence has our Creator even bothered to acknowledge our existence, so it seems. In all those years we have mostly been left to wander, no imposing presence of our Creator to unambiguously guide us along the way.
So how is it, we were so lucky to have come into this world during this past 2000 years? The statistical odds are against it. The statistical odds are 98.7% against our being present here & now, subtracting 1.3% from 100%.
I have some ideas about these matters.....but that is about all they are when trying to read in between the lines of certain texts in the book of Ecclesiastes. It all has to do with all things being done in its own time & a purpose for everything under heaven.
PaulL,
You weren't there 150,000 years ago. The Bible makes it clear that we are from the beginning about 6,000 years ago. God wrote it in stone with his own finger, Christ confirmed "from the beginning, he made them male and female" and you have a big problem with saying that there was death before sin. 2 websites will help tremendously to stop taking mans word over the word of God and there is no conflict with real science.
Scienceagainstevolution.info (http://scienceagainstevolution.info) and AnswersinGenesis.com (http://answersingenesis.com)
I know that creation/evolution is a side issue but I cannot let a comment that implies God was wrong and man was right go unchallenged... and please understand I am NOT implying this issue has anything to do with anyone's salvation. This is a side issue.
CHILDHOOD OF THE WORLD – Edward Clodd
"You would think your father very hard and cruel if he loaded you with good things, and sent your brothers and sisters to some homeless spot to live uncared for and unloved. And yet that is exactly what some people say that God does. They have spoken of Him Who has given life to every man, woman and child as staying near only a few of His creatures, and leaving the rest to care for themselves.
Believe that He who is called our Father is better, more just, more loving, than the best fathers can be."
138
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 06, 2013, 10:21:22 AM
CHILDHOOD OF THE WORLD – Edward Clodd
"You would think your father very hard and cruel if he loaded you with good things, and sent your brothers and sisters to some homeless spot to live uncared for and unloved. And yet that is exactly what some people say that God does. They have spoken of Him Who has given life to every man, woman and child as staying near only a few of His creatures, and leaving the rest to care for themselves.
Believe that He who is called our Father is better, more just, more loving, than the best fathers can be."
OUR HEAVENLY FATHERAccording to Jesus, by nature, we are children of the devil (John 8:44).
But over and above that are the words that Jesus spoke to the multitude.
"For One is your Father, Who is in heaven." (Matt. 1&9).
As sinners, by attitude and actions we demonstrate that we are children of the devil. But by right of creation, and by right of redemption through Jesus Christ, God is the Heavenly Father of everyone, even Satan (Col. 1:20).
For Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole kosmos (Greek). (1John 2:2)
Sooner or later, according to His perfect timing for each individual, God will effectively call everyone out of darkness into His marvelous light, first the chosen generation, then all the rest later. (1Peter 2:9; Col. 1:20)
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God."
The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.
Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.
How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?
Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."
139
IN MEMORIUM – Alfred Tennyson
"Oh, yes, we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill,
To pangs of nature, sins of will,
Defects of doubt, and taints of blood.
That nothing walks with aimless feet,
That not one life shall be destroyed,
Or cast as rubbish to the void,
When God hath made the pile complete:
Behold! We know not anything;
I can but trust that good shall fall
At last – far off – at last to all,
And every Winter change to Spring."
140
ONE RELIGION; MANY CREEDS – Ross Winans
"Our belief is that man, being governed and trained through time, a good and happy result must ensue to each individual. The idea of hell fire and eternal torment, when properly considered, is an idea that is alike blasphemous and illogical.
God has ordained that every man shall sooner or later, recognize and appreciate His blessings. Nothing else is consistent with His determinate will. God is a God of infinite goodness, not of vengeance; to be loved; to be worshiped for love's sake, not through fear of everlasting punishment. We believe that every man will eventually love Him, and strive more and more to serve Him."
141
THE STRANGER IN LOWELL – John Greenleaf Whittier
"Through discords of sin and sorrow, pain and wrong, truth rises, a deathless melody whose notes of wailing are hereafter to be changed to those of triumph as they blend with the great harmony of a reconciled universe."
142
THE UNITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT – John A.D. Mauricq
"In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other."
143
A BRAND NEW EXCELLENT SHORT WRITING BY MARTIN ZENDER
"THE FLY IN THE JAR"
http://www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF2.1.pdf
Oh man! That was fantastic. It ould have been nice if this would be read by all the members in their discussions of free will. Martin has made it perfectly clear that the Bible has already made it perfectly clear and I recommend it because I couldn't have said it any better myself unless God himself moved my fingers over the keyboard. :laughing7: :doh:
#144 – DISSERTATIONS ON THE FINAL STATE OF MANKIND – Thomas Newton
"Nothing can be more contrary to the divine nature and attributes, than for a God all wise, all-good, all-powerful, and all-perfect, to bestow existence on any being Who He foreknows must terminate in wretchedness and misery without respite of end. His goodness could never give birth to any one being, and much less to numberless beings whose end He foresaw would be irretrievable misery; nor could even His justice inflict everlasting punishment.
God made all His creatures finally to be happy; He could never make any whose end He foreknew would be misery everlasting. God is love; infinite benevolence alone prompted Him to action, and infinite benevolence combined with unerring wisdom, and supported by irresistible power, will infallibly accomplish its purpose in the best possible manner."
144
Awesome!
THE TRUE STORY OF MY LIFE – Hans Christian Andersen
"I received gladly, both with feeling and understanding, the doctrine that God is love. Everything which opposes this –- a burning hell, therefore, whose fire endures forever –- I could not recognize."
145
LIFE – Thomas Guthrie
"St. John uses a very broad expression. 'Jesus Christ,' he says, 'is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' 'The whole world. Ah,' some would say, 'that is dangerous language.' It is God's language – John speaking as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. It throws a zone of mercy around the world. Perish the thought that would narrow it by a hand's breadth."
146
#147 – AUTOBIOGRAPHY – LEIGH HUNT
"Are God and His ways to be represented as something so different from the best attributes of humanity? If an angel were to tell me to believe in eternal punishment I would not do it; for it would better become me to believe the angel a delusion, than God monstrous; and we make Him monstrous when we make Him the author of eternal punishment, though we may not have the courage to think so. For God's sake, let us have piety enough to believe Him better."
AMEN! One of my great pleasures is when ideas have been whirling in my head but I've never spoken them or read them anywhere. The quote from Leigh Hunt hit it right on the head. Thank you Rodger for all you add to this forum.
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 15, 2013, 12:44:19 PM
LIFE – Thomas Guthrie
"St. John uses a very broad expression. 'Jesus Christ,' he says, 'is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' 'The whole world. Ah,' some would say, 'that is dangerous language.' It is God's language – John speaking as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. It throws a zone of mercy around the world. Perish the thought that would narrow it by a hand's breadth."
146
If I be lifted up, I will draw a few men unto me.
THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
148
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 17, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
148
Glory :dsunny:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 17, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
148
...Amen! the very idea of 'hell' or more specifically, of the "second death" or "Lake Of Fire" as an eternal place of punishment, blasphemes God's GOOD nature, every day! And, it keeps untold thousands, make that millions, from perceiving and understanding the truth! Which means these same millions will "die in their sins" and be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection, surely a less joyFuL resurrection than the 1st (at least for a while).
- But then, follows that notorious day of 'judgment' when all of human history, etc will be reviewed, and I would assume, learned from, otherwise why bother? Of course it's only aFter all this, when the equally notorious, words "those not believing will go to the 2nd death, er, LOF". (It's written of course - "those whose name is not written in the book of life". And how does one's name get written into this book?)
- After experiencing being resurrected from one's grave and witnessing what has to be a very long day(age?) of 'judgment'.. Who, is not going to "believe"?
- And, of course, for those really stubborn hold outs, who have hardened their heart, layer upon layer, time after time after time, against God, blaming Him for what mankind made of the world and life as we know it, to the point they hate God very much. It's this deep hardening of the heart which becomes an unable to be forgiven sin, which requires the stronger measures of the LOF-age-lasting. Surely the LOF "created for the dragon and his angels" is not meant for those poor 'souls' who never even heard the gospel message?!? That, for one thing, does not jive with the truth and logic, that "God is Perfect". Or, that "God is Good"/"all Good!!
- But alas! Some untruths have been lodged very deep into the psyche of mankind. But when/if the gospel message becomes all truth, or that is to say, all true with no false ring to it, people will believe in droves. "A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump" - in this case, robs the gospel of its saving POWER. :2c: :thumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on January 17, 2013, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 17, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
148
...Amen! the very idea of 'hell' or more specifically, of the "second death" or "Lake Of Fire" as an eternal place of punishment, blasphemes God's GOOD nature, every day! And, it keeps untold thousands, make that millions, from perceiving and understanding the truth! Which means these same millions will "die in their sins" and be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection, surely a less joyFuL resurrection than the 1st (at least for a while).
- But then, follows that notorious day of 'judgment' when all of human history, etc will be reviewed, and I would assume, learned from, otherwise why bother? Of course it's only aFter all this, when the equally notorious, words "those not believing will go to the 2nd death, er, LOF". (It's written of course - "those whose name is not written in the book of life". And how does one's name get written into this book?)
- After experiencing being resurrected from one's grave and witnessing what has to be a very long day(age?) of 'judgment'.. Who, is not going to "believe"?
- And, of course, for those really stubborn hold outs, who have hardened their heart, layer upon layer, time after time after time, against God, blaming Him for what mankind made of the world and life as we know it, to the point they hate God very much. It's this deep hardening of the heart which becomes an unable to be forgiven sin, which requires the stronger measures of the LOF-age-lasting. Surely the LOF "created for the dragon and his angels" is not meant for those poor 'souls' who never even heard the gospel message?!? That, for one thing, does not jive with the truth and logic, that "God is Perfect". Or, that "God is Good"/"all Good!!
- But alas! Some untruths have been lodged very deep into the psyche of mankind. But when/if the gospel message becomes all truth, or that is to say, all true with no false ring to it, people will believe in droves. "A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump" - in this case, robs the gospel of its saving POWER. :2c: :thumbsup:
Good commentary Marie! :thumbsup:
THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
149
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 18, 2013, 03:26:45 PM
THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
149
I never read that very excellent quote before! It's perfect! Thank-you!
Yes! Beautiful! Yes! Wonderful! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
A VALUABLE LINK!
Richard Condon's library of writings by dozens of UR writers.
The section called IN THE GARDEN is especially inspirational.
And THE MAIN LIBRARY is huge!
http://web.archive.org/liveweb/http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
If the link doesn't open for you, click on the word "impatient"
ENJOY!
Thanks, Rodger. I looked, I liked, I "favorited" :laughing7:
POEM BY HOSEA BALLOU (1771-1852)
"In God's eternity
There shall a day arise,
When all the race of man shall be
With Jesus in the skies.
As night before the rays
Of morning flees away,
Sin shall retire before the blaze
Of God's eternal day.
As music fills the grove
When stormy clouds are past,
Sweet anthems of redeeming love
Shall all employ at last.
Redeemed from death and sin
Shall Adam's numerous race,
A ceaseless song of praise begin,
And shout redeeming grace."
150
In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson quotes Thomas Belsham (1750-1829).
"I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage, one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught.
We see the triumph of God's benevolence in restoring the dead transgressor to life; in visiting him with suffering in exact proportion to the greatness of his offences; and finally, in his ultimate purification from moral stain, and his restoration to virtue, to happiness, and to God. This clears up at once all the difficulties of divine dispensations, and the belief of it fills the pious and contemplative mind with unspeakable satisfaction and delight."
151
In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of John Prior Estlin (1747-1817).
"To a belief in the doctrine of the eternity of hell torments, I impute more absurdity, more misery, and more un-Christian conduct, than to all other false opinions put together. The effects of this doctrine, when a person applies it to himself, are gloom and despair, often terminating in mental derangement; when he applies it to others, pride, cruelty, hatred, and all the worst passions of human nature.
It certainly argues a greater degree of benevolence in the Governor of the world, after the punishment of His creatures, to restore them to His favor, than either to preserve them in misery, or to blot them out of existence.
The firm belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration, has afforded much consolation to myself during a large portion of my life; has rendered advanced years placid and serene, and enables me to contemplate death itself, notwithstanding its gloomy appearance, as one of the most essential blessings of the whole plan of Providence.
I would as a friend, advise everyone to take this subject into his most serious consideration. I would wish him to experience during the remainder of his life, all the happiness which results from the full persuasion of this delightful doctrine. I pray to God that others may experience that perpetual sunshine of the mind, that joy in the divine administration, that serenity through life, and that cheering prospect in the hour of death, which the belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration does so manifestly inspire."
152
In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Jung Stilling (1740-1817).
"Not a single soul will be lost. They will all – all be saved at last. The Holy Scriptures do not in one instance say the contrary. All the passages wherewith some are essaying to prove the infinity of hell torments, prove nothing further then that they shall continue an undefined time. The Hebrew word olam, and the Greek word aionios signify nowhere an infinite, but an indefinite length of time."
153
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 23, 2013, 03:30:52 PM
In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Jung Stilling (1740-1817).
"Not a single soul will be lost. They will all – all be saved at last. The Holy Scriptures do not in one instance say the contrary. All the passages wherewith some are essaying to prove the infinity of hell torments, prove nothing further then that they shall continue an undefined time. The Hebrew word olam, and the Greek word aionios signify nowhere an infinite, but an indefinite length of time."
153
"The Hebrew word olam, and the Greek word aionios signify nowhere an infinite, but an indefinite length of time."Oh yeah, that's what I call truth. :boydance:
FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke
"And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures. The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb."
154
OBSERVATIONS ON MAN – Dr. David Hartley
"I thank God that He has at last brought me to a lively sense of His infinite goodness and mercy to all, and that I now see it in all His works, and in every page of His Word. It has taught me to love every man and to rejoice in the happiness which our Heavenly Father intends for all; and has dispersed all the gloomy and melancholy thoughts which arise from the apprehension of eternal misery for myself or friends.
How long, or how much God will punish wicked men, He has nowhere said, and therefore I cannot tell. But this I am sure of, that in judgment He will remember mercy; that He chastens only because He loves, and His tender mercies are over all His works. God will conduct the wicked through all the afflictions which He thinks fit to lay upon them for their good, with infinite tenderness and compassion."
155
In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Olympiodorus (A.D. 550)
"Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons. The soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. The soul is punished for an eonian period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment its eon."
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FUTURE LIFE - William Rounseville Alger
"Even the loathsome realm of darkness and torment shall be burnished and made part of the all-inclusive Paradise. All darkness, falsehood, and suffering, shall flee utterly away, and the whole universe be filled by the illumination of good spirits, blessed with fruitions of eternal delight."
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If heaven is one "kingdom" under one "God", Then perhaps darkness is also one kingdom- a kingdom being swallowed up, from within and without, by the kingdom of light.
"The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it"
"Translated from the kingdom of this darkness into the kingdom of His glorious light."
"For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
(Eph 3:8-12)
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:9-12)
Thanks for the great scriptures eaglesway. :thumbsup:
THE DOCTRINE OF THE UNIVERSALISTS - Ulriucus Zuinglius
"I cannot believe that the Lord will cast away from Him nations whose only crime it is never to have heard of the gospel. No, let us abjure the rashness of setting bounds to the divine mercy."
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Yes, let us "abjure the rashness" :happyclap:
I just love it.
THE MYSTERY OF GOD – Gerard Winstanley
"Christ Jesus will deliver all mankind out of bondage. This I see to be a truth by testimony of Scripture, as God is pleased to teach me. But this mystery of God is not to be done all at once, but in several dispensations, some whereof are past, some are in being, and some are yet to come. The whole creation of mankind, which is God's work, shall be delivered from corruption, bondage, death, and pain. Mankind shall be by Christ reconciled to his Maker and be made one in spirit with Him; i.e. the curse shall be removed, and the power of it killed and consumed.
Truly this is according to the current of the whole Scriptures, that everyone shall be made of one heart and one spirit, i.e. that all shall be brought to obey the Father, walk humbly before Him, and live in peace and love in Him. This is the doctrine of Christ and the gospel. This is glad tidings to hear of. When you are made to enjoy this doctrine as yours, then you shall know what it is to know the Son, and what it is to be set free by the Son."
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yep. The trouble with youth today is they never abjure the rashness
and when they do they don't know that abjuring is what they are doing.
GOD'S LIGHT DECLARED IN MYSTERIES – Richard Coppin
"What is hell? Tis the separation from the enjoyment that the soul is capable of.
They shall not come forth till they have paid the utmost farthing, then shall they receive mercy. For know that God is good, and He will not punish a finite being infinitely."
Richard Coppin also wrote a work with the following long title ---
"OF THE TORMENTS OF HELL; THE FOUNDATION AND PILLARS THEREOF DISCOVERED, SEARCHED, SHAKEN AND REMOVED, WITH INFALLABLE PROOF THAT THERE IS NOT TO BE A PUNISHMENT AFTER THIS LIFE THAT SHALL NEVER END FOR ANYONE TO ENDURE"
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Thomas Whittemore wrote, "Entirely upon the ground of the Scriptures, according to the views he entertained of them, Jeremy White wrote a work in defense of the doctrine of universal salvation called
THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, OR A VINDICATION OF THE GOODNESS AND GRACE OF GOD, TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL."
Thomas Whittemore continues, "Jeremy White believed that all are to be restored, and that we have the assurance of this truth in the character of God Who is love, to which His very anger is subservient, and that the Scriptures assure us of His complete abounding grace over all sin and all death."
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REASON AND PHILOSOPHY NO ENEMIES TO FAITH – William Whiston (translator of Josephus)
"The words used about the duration of torments in the New Testament, and all over the Septuagint, whence the language of the New Testament was taken, no where mean eternity. My reasons for that opinion I have long embraced, and intimated to the world against the eternity of hell torments."
162
Sir Isaac Newton, commenting on Scriptures in the book of Revelation wrote
"The degree and duration of the torments of degenerate and anti-Christian people should be no other than would be approved of by those angels who had ever labored for their salvation, and the Lamb Who has redeemed them with His most precious blood."
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And the Lamb said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Thank you Father for providing the Lamb. Thank you Jesus for your faithfulness and grace.
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 03, 2013, 03:01:20 PM
Sir Isaac Newton, commenting on Scriptures in the book of Revelation wrote
"The degree and duration of the torments of degenerate and anti-Christian people should be no other than would be approved of by those angels who had ever labored for their salvation, and the Lamb Who has redeemed them with His most precious blood."
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Wow, now thats an apple falling from a tree if I ever heard one :o)
THE PHILOSPHICAL PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL AND REVEALED RELIGION – Andrew Michael Ramsay
"Eternal Providence desires, wills and employs continually all the means necessary to lead intelligent creatures to ultimate and supreme happiness. Almighty Power, wisdom and love cannot be eternally frustrated in His absolute and ultimate designs: therefore, God will at last pardon and re-establish in happiness all lapsed beings."
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From a letter to Dr. Phillip Doddridge from Henry J. Barker:
"It is so. We read it in the book of God, that word and truth and gospel of our salvation, that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Yes Doddridge, it is so. The fruit of our Redeemer's sufferings and victory is the entire and eternal destruction of sin and death for everyone. And is it not a glorious destruction? A most blessed ruin? No enemy so formidable, no tyranny so bitter, no fetters so heavy and galling, no prison so dark and dismal, but they are vanquished and disarmed; the unerring dart is blunted and broken, the prison pulled down and razed. Our Lord is risen as the first fruits of them that slept."
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THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – Paul Siegvolk
"As the centre of the whole Bible, whereat all its contents aim, is this, that by God in the beginning every thing was created very good; and that by Christ, the heavenly Wisdom, through Whom all things were created, all whatsoever is corrupted through sin, must at last be made good again. So may anyone whose eyes are opened to see clearly into this point, find a great many testimonies of this eternal truth, both in the books of the Old and New Testament."
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THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF HAPPINESS - Gotthelf Samuel Steinbart
"God can never punish any, more than is necessary for his reformation. He cannot mistake in the choice of His means, and must always reach His end. He would appear less lovely if one creature should be forever miserable."
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APOLOGY FOR SOCRATES - Johann August Eberhard
"Punishment being an evil, cannot be employed by a good being, unless for ends whose goodness is greater than the evils suffered, and which could not be obtained without inflicting them. God punishes not for the common good only, but also for the reformation of the sufferer; which being accomplished, punishment has no further use. It was designed to influence the love and practice of virtue; and when these are produced, it must give place to the happy consequences of amendment. Punishment therefore, being a benefit even to the sufferer, when properly viewed by him, must produce emotions of love and gratitude."
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IMO, God's discipline/punishment is in the realm of "as you sow so shall you reap". The consequences of our attitudes and the actions that spring from them...."I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts".
The sole purpose is to change the viewpoint of the "punished/disciplined one" so that they see the love of God- and the overwhelming transcendency of sacrificial love as the fundamental essence of all being and relationship- only given by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.......Until the knee is bowed in humble recognition and the tongue confesses in joyous liberation from the imprisonment of the self willed life- Praise You For Your Sacrifice Lord Jesus; Glory Unto You, Eternal Father for setting me FREE!
Quote from: eaglesway on February 08, 2013, 07:36:00 PM
IMO, God's discipline/punishment is in the realm of "as you sow so shall you reap". The consequences of our attitudes and the actions that spring from them...."I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts".
The sole purpose is to change the viewpoint of the "punished/disciplined one" so that they see the love of God- and the overwhelming transcendency of sacrificial love as the fundamental essence of all being and relationship- only given by the grace of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.......Until the knee is bowed in humble recognition and the tongue confesses in joyous liberation from the imprisonment of the self willed life- Praise You For Your Sacrifice Lord Jesus; Glory Unto You, Eternal Father for setting me FREE!
Well put eaglesway!
HISTORY OF THE CHURCH – John Le Clerc
"Christ's judgment will be conducted so that its justice shall be seen by all. For the great diversity of crimes there will be a proportional variety of punishments, whatever they consist in. Aionios may be considered an indefinite duration to which God hath placed no limits known to us, the word sometimes signifying an AGE."
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INTRODUCTION OF JOHN'S GOSPEL – Samuel Crellius
"I am persuaded that all men will be finally saved by Jesus Christ, and delivered from the torments of hell."
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PHILOSOPHICAL AND CRITICAL INQUIRIES CONCERNING CHRISTIANITY – Charles Bonnet
"It will be suitable to the spirit of the whole system of thought to set forth the pains of the wicked as aionion, or rather of an indefinite duration.
If in the Supreme Being, justice be goodness guided by wisdom; if Almighty Benevolence essentially requires the improvement of all intelligent beings; if punishments can be the means of leading to perfection; if there be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth; if there be much love where much has been forgiven: My heart leaps for joy – I am lost in admiration – what a wonderful chain of doctrines! The compassion of the Only Good is infinite – 'He desireth not the death of a sinner; but that he should turn from his wickedness and live.' God DESIRETH! – and shall He desire in vain?
The celestial heralds commissioned to celebrate by their hymns the glad tidings, were to instruct these shepherds in the object and the extent of the mission of Christ – on earth peace, good will towards men – GOOD WILL – not towards one single elected nation, but towards all the nations of the world. GOOD WILL – not to one single generation; but to every generation past and to come. The Benevolence of the Best and greatest of Beings includes all mankind, BECAUSE HE IS THE FATHER OF ALL."
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THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – Thomas Whittimore
"In his book THOUGHTS ON DIVINE GOODNESS, Ferdinand Oliver Petitpierre taught that men are sinners, and God punishes them with severity; but this severity is dictated by goodness, and all the punishments God inflicts are declared to be for the sinner's good.
How opposed to this is the dreadful doctrine of eternal punishment, an error which grew up under a misconception of the meaning of the word rendered everlasting. God punishes always to reform, a fact which the author establishes with the most irresistible reasoning.
'These shall go away into eonian punishment' in which the word rendered punishment, he maintains, quoting the authority of Wittenbach, and Grotius, signifies a remedial, corrective discipline. The infinite authority of God is entirely founded on His goodness.
'Eternal' punishment is real evil, an infinite evil, in which everything conspires to exclude from God's plan of the ages."
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ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all."
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WHAT IS TRUTH? ABSOLUTE AND RELATIVE – Don Bast (published 2011)
"It has taken me a long time to unlearn the harmful instruction received over many years of indoctrination. It is God's word alone that is the trustworthy source of truth. The good news of the glory of our happy God (1Tim. 1:11) will expose the error and set us free from the spiritual bondage of man's creeds.
At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the 'potential' savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.
Someday the entire creation itself shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God, and is groaning and travailing, even now, in anticipation. We ourselves also, who have the first fruit of the spirit, we also are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body. For to expectation were we saved (Rom. 8:21-24).
Whatever trials and troubles come our way we are assured that it is not a sign of God's anger or even displeasure. The bond of love we share with God through His Son will never be broken. His desire to please us and be with us never changes. The love of God in our hearts is our steadfast anchor through all the storms of life."
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I love when someone you've never met or talked to states your thoughts
as if you had been best friends for years. :dsunny:
Indeed, the God of all Hope, steadfast in His goodness, for He alone is good. What a relief to know that He will work all things according to the counsel of His will.
MEMOIRS OF THE PRIVATE LIFE OF MY FATHER (James Necker) – by Baroness de Stael Holstien
"Eternal punishment! Power Almighty, can they who entertain such an idea know Thee? Eternal fire for those miserable creatures who have so many combats to sustain, and are armed with such feeble weapons! Power Almighty, Thy goodness preceded our birth, it still subsists, it will subsist after we are cut off by the hand of death."
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LETTER OF RESOLUTION – clergyman George Rust
"To imagine that man, for his disposition, be kept in a never-to-be-ended doom of intolerable pain and anguish of body and mind, is to fix so harsh a note upon the mercy and equity of the Righteous Judge of all the world, that the same temper in a man we would execrate and abominate."
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IN A LETTER FROM WILLIAM DUNCOMBE TO REV. SAMUEL SAY
"Vindictive justice, in the Deity, is, I own, no article in my creed. All punishment in the hands of an infinitely wise and good Being, I think, must be medicinal, and what we call chastisement."
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POEM by Soame Jenyns (eighteenth century)
"Oh could mankind but make this truth their guide
And force the helm from prejudice and pride,
Were once these maxims fixed, that God's our friend,
Virtue our good, and happiness our end.
How soon must reason o'er the world prevail,
And error, fraud and superstition fail!
None would hereafter, then, with groundless fear,
Describe the Almighty cruel and severe
Predestinating some without pretense
To Heav'n, and some to hell for no offense;
Inflicting endless pains for transient crimes,
And fav'ring sects, or nations, men or climbs.
None would fierce zeal for piety mistake,
Or malice for whatever tenets sake,
Or think salvation to a few confined
And heav'n too narrow to contain mankind!"
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Quote from: ded2daworld on February 15, 2013, 03:23:42 PM
I love when someone you've never met or talked to states your thoughts
as if you had been best friends for years. :dsunny:
Haven't I been telling you this for decades?
Seems like it. I'll learn someday.
DYER'S LIFE OF ROBINSON (eighteenth century)
In a letter to a friend, Robert Robinson wrote
"These believers in eternal torment are never shocked; they never blush; but affirm, 'This is wise and just, and kind; and it will be more glorious to God to save me, and damn them to endless and unavoidable woe, than it would be to share eternal life amongst us, and we few, though we hate one another here, shall be the happier for the damnation of the rest.'
Barbarians! What arrogant madness inspires you?
Poor * honies! -- servants that know not what their Lord doth.
O my soul, to such be not thou united.
Cursed be their anger, for it is cruel."
* (definition of "honies" – "the common man without proper revelation")
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SERMONS by George Walker (eighteenth century)
"Some have thought that they could not clothe the future punishment of sin with sufficient terrors, and have given therefore, such exaggerated descriptions of them, both as to degree and duration, as in the opinion of many, can no way be reconciled with just sentiments of God.
The future punishment of the wicked does, in God's nature, suppose a capacity to be relieved of it, of gradually acquiring that better state of mind, and returning inclination towards virtue, which is the first and most desirable end of all punishment."
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From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)
"God hath declared that His will is that all should be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.
Unceasing torments can answer no possible good to anyone in the universe. I conclude them to be neither the will or work of God. Could I suppose them, I must believe them to be inflicted by a wantonness or cruelty which words cannot express, nor heart conceive.
But let this be the comfort of every humble soul, that it hath pleased God to reconcile all things to Himself."
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LITERARY HOURS – Dr. Nathan Drake
"That sin and torture should be eternal can neither accord with the justice nor the goodness of Deity, and would appear to many devout Christians to convert the God they should adore and love, into a perfect demon. Fortunately, however, an opinion so repulsive is neither accordant with reason, nor the Scriptures."
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I love this one, brother Rodger. :Peace2:
Quote from: Eduard on February 24, 2013, 01:30:08 PM
I love this one, brother Rodger. :Peace2:
Mee too Eduard :thumbsup:
Here is a similar one.
MISCELLANEOUS MAXIMS AND THOUGHTS – William Matthews
"In my childhood I found it impossible to fix my belief in the common notion of endless torments. I discovered there are plain arguments from reason and Scripture against that presumptuous doctrine of endless punishment, and I am now cheered with the rational, Scriptural, and as I think, glorious doctrine of the punishment of Divine justice being eventually subservient to a universal purification and fitness for heavenly habitations."
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CHRIST GLORIFIED IN THE SALVATION AND RESTORATION OF ALL MANKIND – Francis Leicester
"But the Scripture which crowns all, and the last which I shall bring into proof, is Revelation 5:13. Here all creation is at Christ's feet, and that not with tears in their eyes, or petitions in their hands, not with crying or supplications or weeping because things were hidden and kept secret; but with joy in their hearts, and praises in their mouths; with melody on their lips, and hallelujahs on their tongues; with looks and countenances full of satisfaction and delight; and their faces, instead of gathering blackness, turning into paleness, or being covered with shame and confusion (as once was the case with some of them) they all now shine as the sun, replete with light, life and love, full of ecstasy and rapture. And that because the book written within and on the backside, and sealed with seven seals, is now opened and unsealed, and all things revealed and explained: their own cases particularly unfolded to their view, with all the ways and means their loving Saviour took to bring them to the situation they are now in, with other miracles of grace and love.
Where then there is universal praise and thanksgiving, universal harmony and love, and both heaven and earth sounding and resounding acclamations of joy and peace, there must be universal salvation."
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Anna Letitia Barbuald, widow of Rev. Rochemont Barbuald wrote
"Rochemont's favorite doctrine was the final salvation of all the human race. He preached many sermons on this doctrine, which he defended both in the pulpit and in conversation with zeal and enthusiasm, which his congregation and his friends cannot but well remember."
Anna further commented, "I think it would be desirable to separate from religion that idea of gloom, which in this country (England) has but too generally accompanied it.
No one who embraces the common idea of future endless torments, that sins committed against an infinite Being do therefore deserve infinite punishment, no one, I will venture to assert, can believe such tenants, and have them often in his thoughts, and yet be cheerful.
Surely this age (the eighteenth century) which has demolished dungeons, rejected torture, and given so fair a prospect of abolishing the iniquity of the slave trade, cannot long retain among its articles of belief, the gloomy perplexities of Calvinism, and the heart-withering perspective of cruel and never-ending punishments."
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AN ESSAY ON UNIVERSAL REDEMPTION; TENDING TO PROVE THAT THE GENERAL SENSE OF SCRIPTURE FAVORS THE OPINION OF THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND. – Rev. John Brown (eighteenth century)
In UNIVERSALIST MISCELLANY, commenting on that work, William Vidler wrote,
"He considers the genuine import of the words and phrases which are thought to prove the endless duration of punishment, which he contends do not necessarily bear that sense, and he touches upon the usual topics of argument by which universalism has been defended."
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CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
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About Dr. Joseph Priestly, Thomas Whittimore writes in THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM
"He believed that God's punishment will not be administered with the slightest tincture of revenge, but as a necessary means of qualifying the sinner for a better state of existence, which his present propensities disqualify him from enjoying. It is not the effect of anger in an irritated and avenging tyrant as the abominable tenets of orthodoxy would induce us to think of the Deity, but it is the medicine administered for our good by the Physician of our souls. Nor have we any reason to believe that it is greater in degree, or longer in duration than is necessary to produce the beneficial effect for which it is inflicted.
It was a constant source of great consolation to him that all things exist and move on harmoniously to produce universal good by Divine appointment and direction."
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In my mind (a place that no one should enter alone :laugh:), I see God drawing everything to Himself like a giant vortex. On the outskirts of the vortex things are drawn in slowly, but the closer the object (us) get to the center of the vortex (God), things are drawn in at a greater speed and certain things are burned up in the drawing. There is no fear of it in light of this fact--that which is burned off is to perfect us. For me, I believe this is happening as we speak. God's plan is accelerating.
Well said !, Deena :thumbsup:
Quote from: Deena on March 03, 2013, 06:39:11 PM
In my mind (a place that no one should enter alone :laugh:), I see God drawing everything to Himself like a giant vortex. On the outskirts of the vortex things are drawn in slowly, but the closer the object (us) get to the center of the vortex (God), things are drawn in at a greater speed and certain things are burned up in the drawing. There is no fear of it in light of this fact--that which is burned off is to perfect us. For me, I believe this is happening as we speak. God's plan is accelerating.
Amen & Awesome. I once had a vision. I was in heaven/space far above the earth. I was looking down from beside Christ on the throne. The 24 elders surrounded the throne in a wide circle. I could see the earth way down through the circle and it was like a spiritual vortex as you descrided drawing souls up into it.
"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me."
This same Jesus whom you crucified God has made both Lord and Messiah, and exalted Him to His right hand where he has received the Holy Spirit and poured forth this which you do now bot see and hear.
"And there was a sound as of a rushing, mighty wind(vortex:o) and tongues of fire hovered over their heads."
"When He ascended He gave gifts unto men and led captives in His train."
"The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it but you don't know where it comes from or wher it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
As we are drawn nearer to the center of the vortex we draw others with us, eventually setting the whole creation free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
Deena- this is so glorious I could jump through the roof :dsunny:
He is still ascending and captives are still being liberated and added to thetrain of His glory like a comet, that instead of losing sparks, is drawing them unto itself wherever it goes.
Eph 2:4-10 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And
God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.Come Quickly Lord Jesus.
The Vortex, turning so slowly at first, turning through the ages of gold, silver, bronze, and iron. Each age a little shorter than the last by a factor of phi. Each age a little quicker, a little more impoverished, but only in the human sense of impoverished. This present age, turning inward sharply (involution), accelerating, being drawn upward to the high center. The Hindus call it the "Kali Yuga," the Age of Iron. It looks like an age of destruction, but the iron is needed to resist the purifying fires that free and perfect us. The Vortex is pulling us up, to higher dimensions, to God. Don't hold back, go with the flow, it looks like Chaos, but it is not. It is a threshold, the border of something incomparably better.
If the above sounds too "New Age" for you, move on...
See the star of David . Two triangles(vortex) pointing at each other but overlapped.!
Some see the two triangles of the so-called Star of David as two tetrahedrons overlapped in three dimensions, making a regular solid called the stellated octahedron.
Fascinating. I am glad that this resonates with others. In the vortex we will be swallowed up in life. Christ made the journey first and He calls us to follow Him. It is not yet known what we will be, but the promise is glory. What a wonder.
Thanks everyone for the additional off-the-cuff snippets. :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
In an introduction to his translation of the New Testament, Nathaniel Scarlett wrote
"It has been a means of propagating the doctrine of endless damnation, which states that God will kindle a fire, and so constantly supply it with combustible matter, brimstone, by His all creating power, as to endure as long as He Himself shall exist; and that the subjects of future punishment, being raised incorruptible and indissoluble, shall for the same period endure burning in the lake of fire, God having no end in view but the endless misery of His creatures.
The editor hopes the translation he has given will help to remove so degrading an idea of God, Who is love; and although He will afflict the wicked in the lake of fire and brimstone; yet He has a great and grand design in so doing – punishment being a means to accomplish an end, and not the end itself."
EDITOR'S NOTE:
Fourteen other literally (not interpretively) translated Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
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I note that all these translations are little-known. I had not heard of some of them at all, though I do possess a Ferrar Fenton Version, and love it. It looks as if it's the usual game of silencing the opposition, cutting off the supply of contrary Bibles, and setting up the worst translations possible on their various pedestals.
All it takes is for the pastor, preist, preacher or whatever say something along the lines of, "This is the most accurate translation and we will be reading along so you need this version to follow us. If you don't have this version, we are passing it out to you so you'll be with us." :Peace2:
Quote from: Deena on March 04, 2013, 01:31:10 PM
Fascinating. I am glad that this resonates with others. In the vortex we will be swallowed up in life. Christ made the journey first and He calls us to follow Him. It is not yet known what we will be, but the promise is glory. What a wonder.
Sucked up into glory! :laughing7:
In a letter to a friend, James Edmands (nineteenth century) wrote
"The death of Christ ensured the restoration of all as a result. Men are now in the hands of a Mediator, Who deals with them as rational and accountable beings, and afflicts, whether here or hereafter, only in order to bring them to a deep sense of their own folly, and then restores them to His favor. Those who love and believe in Him in this life, are the first fruits, and those who do not will be the harvest or ingathering."
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Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
"God's justice is, of itself, nothing but goodness; for it rewards the virtuous with blessings, and conduces to the improvement of the sinful. God's punishment is, in its operation, like medicine: it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.
The necessary chastisements of the Great Judge, Who regards all with benignity, will make mankind grieve for their sins and imperfections, and advance them through the various states of discipline to perfection. Even God's wrath is full of benevolence towards the human race; for whose sake the Word of God was made man. The chastisements of God are always salutary and instructive, leading to amendment."
191
Origen Adamantius (185-254 A.D.)
"The end and consummation of the world will take place when all the wicked shall be subjected to punishments. How long each one shall suffer God only knows. The great variety of characters and different orders of beings which now exist, will, through the goodness of God, their subjection to Jesus Christ, and the unity of the Holy Spirit, be finally restored. As the sick must be cured by harsh medicines, so God administers for the purpose of amendation.
Our God is a consuming fire. He shall come as a refiner's fire, to purify rational nature from the alloy of wickedness. Rivers of fire are said to go forth before the face of God for the purpose of consuming whatever of evil is admixed with the soul. (Dan. 7:10).
We assert that the Word, Who is the Wisdom of God, shall bring together all intelligent creatures, and convert them to His own perfection. We deny that of all the vices of the soul, there is any which the supreme Word cannot cure. For the Word is more powerful than all the diseases of the soul; and He applies His remedies to each one, according to the pleasure of God. And the consummation of all things will be the extinction of sin.
This may not, indeed, take place with mankind in the present life, but be accomplished after they shall have been liberated from the body."
192
AGAINST THE MANICHEANS - Titus of Bostra (written 364 A.D)
"The abyss of hell is indeed the place of torment; but it is not eternal. The punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect upon transgressors; for they are inflicted, not to preserve them in their wickedness, but to make them cease from their wickedness."
193
As there is, imo, no hell :o)- I assume the writer is speaking of the lake of fire, or Gehenna, or both as one(it doesnt matter to me)- this fire is the overwhelmingly brilliant light that flows from the "face/eyes" of Jesus, the "presence of God" where the veil has been rent, and the kolassis(corrective punishment) is the discomfort that results as the elements of the former world are consumed away in preparation for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells- the darkness rending from the soul of the standing before the One True Almighty Invisible God, the Father of Lights within whom there is no darkness or shadow of turning.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 09, 2013, 05:43:24 AM
As there is, imo, no hell :o)- I assume the writer is speaking of the lake of fire, or Gehenna, or both as one(it doesnt matter to me)- this fire is the overwhelmingly brilliant light that flows from the "face/eyes" of Jesus, the "presence of God" where the veil has been rent, and the kolassis(corrective punishment) is the discomfort that results as the elements of the former world are consumed away in preparation for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells- the darkness rending from the soul of the standing before the One True Almighty Invisible God, the Father of Lights within whom there is no darkness or shadow of turning.
I doubt that Titus would strongly disagree with you eaglesway. :-)
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself."
194
Didymus, the blind, of Alexandria (313-398 A.D.)
"As mankind, by being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in the fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all, and the superior rational intelligences, the angels, will be restored to obedience by correction.
The blasphemy which shall not be forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come, may have been the blinded Jews; and their punishment, that which came upon them when they were delivered up to the Romans, and scattered over the whole earth. They will be pursued with vengeance from the Lord, not for a short period only, but for the whole future age, so that they shall be captives and fugitives, wandering among all nations, and possessing neither city nor country. Nevertheless, as God Who overthrew them is naturally kind and compassionate, He hath still reserved for them a space for repentance."
195
Glory :dsunny:
COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
196
AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued.
197
Ahhh, the good ol days! LOLOL
Quote from: eaglesway on March 13, 2013, 04:27:09 AM
Ahhh, the good ol days! LOLOL
That last quote BTW is from THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theodorus of Mopsuestia (350-428 A.D.)
"All sins will be wiped away, because a true remission consists in the remission not of some sins but of all of them, as the blessed John said: "Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." This, however, will take place fully in the next world when after the resurrection we shall be immortal and when all the impulses of sins will cease. This is the reason why the blessed Paul also said: "If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised, and if Christ be not raised your faith is vain and ye are yet in your sins." He shows in this that in the future resurrection from the dead we are expecting complete abolition of sin.
"When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O grave, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?' The sting of death is sin, and the strength of the sin is the law." Then will truly take place the abolition of all these: of death, sin and corruption."
198
...all summed up in Colossians 1:20 for all to 'see'..
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fuless dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself whether things on earth or in heaven. Praise God for His grace!
John Scottus Eriugena (810-877 A.D)
"There will be a conscious return (reditus) and merging of all beings into God. No souls (including the souls of animals) will be left out of this grand return. No one will be damned to suffer forever in hell or wither away into oblivion. There can only be a single destination for all: eternal salvation in God, the whole of humanity as in the image of God eventually to be restored to its divine exemplar. The object of punishment is not the will of the individual himself, but the misdirection of the will, so the result of punishment is the final purification and redemption of all. Even the devils shall be saved. The ultimate goal is deification, theosis or resumption into the divine being, when the individual soul is raised to a full knowledge of God, and where knowing and being are one."
199
THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – Jeremiah White (1613-72 A.D)
"God's love demands that all punishment be reformative, Divine punishment is both good in itself, because everything that God does is good, and good for those being punished, because God loves His creation"
200
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 16, 2013, 02:28:11 PM
THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – Jeremiah White (1613-72 A.D)
"God's love demands that all punishment be reformative, Divine punishment is both good in itself, because everything that God does is good, and good for those being punished, because God loves His creation"
200
I wouldn't let the modern school system let on you think that way if I were you. :laughing7:
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
"Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration, showing that Christian universalism, or ultimate reconciliation is the true Biblical doctrine."
Arguably, this is the most helpful link on the internet for people who want to believe that the Bible, (literally, not interpretively) translated, teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
201
Absolutely excellent.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS – ("shown to denote limited duration") John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
The etymology of the Greek word aionios does not contain the meaning of everlasting.
"THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
202
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Regarding the words translated "forever and ever."
"There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, for "the holies of the holies" - similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.
As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5."
203
#204 – A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
"Hell is a myth! Jesus Christ saves all mankind. That is the growing view of Bible scholars, translators and Bible publishers. Hell is leaving the pages of many Bible translations.
Bible scholars and church historians are acknowledging that early Christians were taught by Jesus and the apostles that ALL mankind would ultimately be saved. Discover how the heathen concept of Hell crept into the church and then on to the pages of many Bible translations.
Tentmaker Ministries website contains hundreds of articles and books explaining how this happened and its horrible effect on mankind. We also make available many other resources for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.
Experience your heavenly Father's unfailing love for you. Be set free from the fear that you or a loved one may be eternally damned to Hell."
Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries
204
:Gclap: :cheerleader:
Quote from: marie glen on March 22, 2013, 08:39:14 PM
:Gclap: :cheerleader:
:iagree:
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
An excellent website expounding Christian Biblical Universal Salvation
That looks like an awesome site!! [ http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm ]
The very first page ya get to sets so much straight! right off the bat.. Love it! Now I'm going back to read more! :HeartThrob:
:ty: for posting that for us all
so far so good!~! I love how they set things straight that UR is NOT universalim or whatnot.. comparing the two.. excellent! - http://richardwaynegarganta.com/IsThisUniversalism.htm
..and I like this on the intro page: Quote: "Most people listen to preachers and basically say, "Tell me what to believe." To get past traditions of men, dogmas and evolved error you will have to be diligent and study to get past it. I have supplied you with the best of what I have found. Don't expect to agree with or understand everything - just read and study prayerfully while keeping an open mind. Your prison of "status quo" doctrine is about to be rattled!"
ALL BIBLE! (i say & onLy way to go) :gthumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2013, 09:05:24 PM
That looks like an awesome site!! [ http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm ]
The very first page ya get to sets so much straight! right off the bat.. Love it! Now I'm going back to read more! :HeartThrob:
:ty: for posting that for us all
I thought someone might like that site. I'm glad I shared it. :dsunny:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #1
Some day everyone is going to learn that it was not even possible for them TO NOT start trusting in Jesus as their Saviour when they did start trusting in Him.
The reason we know that everyone will eventually be saved is because God "will have
all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that
all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of
all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of
all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of
all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF
ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the
result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
Amen!! It is all without a doubt!
I think my brethren here at tentmaker forum, have misunderstood some of the things I post, and is the only reason I mention the following. :smile:
We can hear people of the world in mistaken perception, blame God, or rather,actually, hate God because of life as we presently know it, with all its sufferings and even horrors (wars, etc). But all things are PERFECT! Because it is, all, His powerful (very powerful) truth drama which is writing upon EVERY heart, mind and psyche` the full knowing and understanding of good from evil, which (btw, and imo) is also life(Him!) from death. And learning beyond the shadow of a doubt that God is all in all. Therefor this life and all history has been, and is, "perfect"! If, He was creating a universe where all will, would, could, go their own way, and each creature get to 'choose' good from evil -- what we would have, is what we do have.
It is all in God's will and choice. But, God is doing a very serious and important work. One we should not deny, for then we work against Him!
I'm a staunch literalist :smile: because I believe God is working out very important purpose.. from Genesis to Revelation.
hope you don't mind my trying to clarify here.. Perhaps I should repost this as a new discussion..
:hiya:
Thank you for your input Marie. :thumbsup:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #2
Why I believe that the Bible teaches that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
Dean Hough wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Very informative and enlightening!
Quote: "kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) ...Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better"...!! :smile:
I, for one, will be checking out these other links! :mthumbsup:
...and what keeps repeating in my brain is, "age lasting fire - created for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41)
Quote from: marie glen on March 26, 2013, 04:00:37 AM
...and what keeps repeating in my brain is, "age lasting fire - created for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41)
Marie, you might enjoy reading what a few teachers of universal reconciliation wrote.
Personally I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16).
(end quote) "God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace."
(end quote)Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!"
(end quote)RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love."
(end quote)AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued.
(end quote)ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all."
(end quote)CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the lustre of the universe."
(end quote)Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself."
(end quote)COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
(end quote)THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.
(end quote)
..they won't get any argument from me! if someone reads the Bible a lot, I really don't know how they continue to miss it..!
I like this one best! :laugh2:
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 26, 2013, 02:10:03 PM
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
I've seen his name before!
and I really like this:
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 26, 2013, 02:10:03 PM
CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
"I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator. " (nothing) "left to mar the lustre of the universe." (end quote)
And,
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 26, 2013, 02:10:03 PM
Personally I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.
Amen!!
At Matthew 25:41, Jesus said, the "..age lasting fire created for the devil and his angels.." - I'm assuming this is God's will.. created for the devil and his angels.. and who can thwart God's will? (twofold, one being to cleanse satan)
I don't believe it is in God's plan for any human to actually go to the age lasting LOF.
...
"created for the devil and his angels"To borrow some words from: CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE –
J.S. Taylor, "
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish" (and hatred/blame of God) "
as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator" during the long day of 'judgment'/review, after having experienced being resurrected, that is to say, before the end of that 'day' at which time is said "anyone not in the book of life" (still not believing) "will go to the LOF"... I don't believe it is in God's plan for any human to actually go to the age lasting LOF. Although I suppose there could possibly be some few very stubborn hold outs! But is this God's will? And can God's will be turned aside? made void? not done?
Both "the beast" and the "false prophet" thrown into the LOF (rev 19:20) at Christ's return are not persons but are active 'institutions' (namely, rev 13:1-10, not 11-18; and the false teaching,the "falling away"). Also, the goats and sheep at the end of the age are nations at armegeddon,
Mt 25:31,32,41,45) Satan, the adversary is thrown to the age lasting LOF before the Great White Throne Judgment/Day of Review
Great articles, Rogertutt! :mthumbsup:
FROM, http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html - 1st link from the post: "FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #2"
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..."The ages are often referred to in Scripture, and the study of the exact conditions and purposes of each of them are not fanciful; but it is rather the only adequate foundation for any true knowledge of the Bible." -- Dr. Lewis S. Chafer
----------------------------------------------------
"The word under examination" (aion) "is the foundation stone of that evil structure" --REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M. [ http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml ] "age lasting" :gsmile:
"that evil structure" = hell, (which blasphemes God every day!)
I had lost track of the quote by Abbott.
Thanks for posting it again Marie.
I shall put it in a document.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #3
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is a basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control, some sooner, the rest later.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
James Coram
IMO, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is doing in the universe, which is drawing every will into submission to Christ by the glory of His love.
In my opinion free will vs sovereign will is a very unfortunate place to set forth as the fundamental difference between UR and ET, as I have won "free will" believers to UR by simply showing them the translation issues and re-defining for them the meaning of, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- by the scriptures(ehp1:9-11, col 1:16-21, romans 8 and 1 cor 15, etc.).
I believe God is ultimately sovereign, but that He has set in place a much more complex, mysterious interaction between our will and His, than either of the extreme views allows.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 27, 2013, 01:00:07 AM
IMO, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is doing in the universe, which is drawing every will into submission to Christ by the glory of His love.
In my opinion free will vs sovereign will is a very unfortunate place to set forth as the fundamental difference between UR and ET, as I have won "free will" believers to UR by simply showing them the translation issues and re-defining for them the meaning of, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- by the scriptures(ehp1:9-11, col 1:16-21, romans 8 and 1 cor 15, etc.).
I believe God is ultimately sovereign, but that He has set in place a much more complex, mysterious interaction between our will and His, than either of the extreme views allows.
Thanks for your input eaglesway.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #4
ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF
ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also are smart enough to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone suffer eternal torment without any say in the matter, except the few He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will include the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
The error of religion is categorization. my experience of calvinism is that calvinists think everyone is either calvinist or armenian. Of course this is just the limit of their experience blinding them to the wide range of the variety of positions and degrees and measures of belief about the will of God and the will of man and how they interact- between the two extremes- that honest, seeking, honorable christian disciples may hold.
the extension of this calvinistic type of approach would be that anyone who comes out of a calvinist or preterist background believes that their understanding of how the soveriegnity of God works MUST BE the foundation for why UR makes sense.
This is simply presumption, and a presumption upon which a UR understanding need not be built. A presumptio that should not be forced at the frnt end of teaching UR beyond the degree of the excellent example given in the preceding post
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
As a proponent of stewardship and a measure of free will- i believe that God in his sovereignty ordained that His love is the "will" that WILL win all men to Himself through the sacrifice of Christ. I have declared the "restoration of all things" and the "salvation of all" to Christians of various backgrounds for years and had much success, being neither Calvinistic or Armenian. :o)
Faith in faith is in vain. The faith that God gives is faith in Jesus Christ Himself, and in His death, burial ad resurrection.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Thank you again for your input eaglesway.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #5
A.E. KNOCH
One of the great Christian Biblical Universalist of the last century was A.E. Knoch.
My attitude towards the frequent threats of believers in eternal torment is summed up beautifully by his response.
An eternal torment critic said "Mr. Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace. It is only natural for one who thinks Him capable of tormenting His own creatures eternally, to seek to follow His example, and torture His servants here and now. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. We recall with joy and satisfaction the great truth that, by God's grace, it is impossible for you to enter into condemnation, no matter how much you may offend Him (Rom.8:1) and the still greater truth that we are saved for grace (Eph.2:8). While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." A.E. Knoch
Quote from: eaglesway on March 27, 2013, 01:00:07 AM
IMO, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is doing in the universe, which is drawing every will into submission to Christ by the glory of His love.
In my opinion free will vs sovereign will is a very unfortunate place to set forth as the fundamental difference between UR and ET, as I have won "free will" believers to UR by simply showing them the translation issues and re-defining for them the meaning of, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- by the scriptures(ehp1:9-11, col 1:16-21, romans 8 and 1 cor 15, etc.).
I believe God is ultimately sovereign, but that He has set in place a much more complex, mysterious interaction between our will and His, than either of the extreme views allows.
Absolutely, we do have to rightly divide the Word, and have discernment. I 'talk' a lot to nonbelievers, and many times it concerns talking about the world and the shape it's in, so of course that takes a different discernment, as of course, even though HE is in complete control and all things are perfect because all is the working out of His will and HIS PERFECT ultimate BLUEPRINT. But folks of the world think HE is like a cosmic joker enjoying a good time laughing at sufferings, war, etc! Talk about blasphemous doctrine or ideas! Of course it's just crazy and as
highly illogical as thinking FOR EVEN ONE MOMENT -- that we choose God! rofl!! There's ONLY ONE source of goodness! And it ain't us! :laughing7: :Peace2: :smile:
I have told people, since God is Life itself He suffers and experiences ALL sufferings which ever occur!! Now why would HE put Himself through all that? Logic tells me because He has a wonderful blueprint in mind and working out, and nothing can stay His hand.
"..age lasting fire, created for the devil and his angels.."
that too is God's will --> "created for the devil and his angels" not man. I suppose there will be some stubborn hold outs.. perhaps some of the crowd in ancient days who thought it was good religion to lay their babes alive in fires of baal or molech.. BUT, as Roger posted :smile: "even if He casts some into the lake of fire which is the second death it will include the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it."
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit.." John 15:16
"Let NO ONE say when he is tempted, "I am tempted BY God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil,
nor does He Himself tempt anyone" James 1:13
"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" - reaLLy does say it aLL!
:hiya:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #6
AION -- AIONIOS
In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God's plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words ("ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world" to translate this one word.
And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as "ages."
Talk about confusion compounded!
Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God's truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God's glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
I didn't know that about the seven translations of aion in the 1st 3 chapters of Ephesians alone! As "ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world"!
I'll never forget the 1st time I looked up and investigated the word "forever"! I could not find it in either of my lexicons! I thought "did they make a mistake? and forget this word??" Til (dah!:)) I thought to look for "ever" and LO & BeHoLd! there it was "age"!! "Aion - properly, an age"..
There's nothing wrong with God's Word only Man's interpretation and some few translations of a few KEY words! :mthumbsup: :smile:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #7
ALL IN ALL – A.E. Knoch
A.E. Knoch's book ALL IN ALL
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of A.E Knoch's ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments he used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
Regarding the book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch. In spite of the claim that there are contradictions in it, and in spite of "cult-buster" Don Hewey's other attempts to discredit it, (arguments to which Richard Condon has responded), ALL IN ALL remains, in my opinion, one of the best of all the many books that I have read in support of the Bible teaching universal transformation.
Don Hewey is a believer in the inspiration of the King James Version. When he accuses A.E. Knoch of "contradicting the Bible," in many cases what he really means is that A.E. Knoch contradicts the KJV, because the Concordant Translation does not rely on the Received Text from which the KJV was translated. Don Hewey therefore also attacks the RSV, the NIV, and other modern translations. For this reason much of what Don writes just doesn't make any sense.
As far as Knoch calling the life that Lazarus will be raised to as it being eonian and unending, it is both. Lazarus will have unending life and that life will allow him to live through the oncoming eons which is called '"eonian life."
But even if Don Hewey's criticisms had any merit, (and Richard Condon proves they don't), they would still not detract from the fact that this book proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments he used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/
Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ's cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God's purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). "In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated "forever" and "everlasting" and "never" are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God's grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
ALL IN ALL can be read on the internet here
Copy and paste the following url into the server address bar or click on
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
Quote from: marie glen on March 30, 2013, 02:44:54 PM
I didn't know that about the seven translations of aion in the 1st 3 chapters of Ephesians alone! As "ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world"!
I'll never forget the 1st time I looked up and investigated the word "forever"! I could not find it in either of my lexicons! I thought "did they make a mistake? and forget this word??" Til (dah!:)) I thought to look for "ever" and LO & BeHoLd! there it was "age"!! "Aion - properly, an age"..
There's nothing wrong with God's Word only Man's interpretation and some few translations of a few KEY words! :mthumbsup: :smile:
Aion comes from Olam- a time of unknown duration measured by the subject it is attached too.
Olam was used to describe the length of a life (you shall be his servant olam- as long as yu live)
Olam was used to describe a time far back into antiquity (they were the men of old(men olam))
Olam was used to describe the eternal God (God is great olam- forever)
Olam was used to desribe the duration of hills (the olam hills)
and many other things- always an indefinite adjective defined by the subject it is attached to.......
My point? :o) it is in the Hebrew that the issue of "forever" comes clearest.
My example? It is not really aionian kolassis( for an age)
It is 'olam' kolassis(corrective tribulation)- meaning, however long it takes till the purpose is accomplished. "You shall not be released until you have payed the last penny". What is the last penny? Bowing the knee, confessing with the mouth- "Jesus is Lord"- from an position of adoration and enlightenment.
Many stripes? Few stripes? How many stripes will it take? Till you relent and return to the Father of spirits :o)
Where else shall you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion?(Isaiah 1)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 30, 2013, 09:15:42 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 30, 2013, 02:44:54 PM
I didn't know that about the seven translations of aion in the 1st 3 chapters of Ephesians alone! As "ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world"!
I'll never forget the 1st time I looked up and investigated the word "forever"! I could not find it in either of my lexicons! I thought "did they make a mistake? and forget this word??" Til (dah!:)) I thought to look for "ever" and LO & BeHoLd! there it was "age"!! "Aion - properly, an age"..
There's nothing wrong with God's Word only Man's interpretation and some few translations of a few KEY words! :mthumbsup: :smile:
Aion comes from Olam- a time of unknown duration measured by the subject it is attached too.
Olam was used to describe the length of a life (you shall be his servant olam- as long as yu live)
Olam was used to describe a time far back into antiquity (they were the men of old(men olam))
Olam was used to describe the eternal God (God is great olam- forever)
Olam was used to desribe the duration of hills (the olam hills)
and many other things- always an indefinite adjective defined by the subject it is attached to.......
My point? :o) it is in the Hebrew that the issue of "forever" comes clearest.
My example? It is not really aionian kolassis( for an age)
It is 'olam' kolassis(corrective tribulation)- meaning, however long it takes till the purpose is accomplished. "You shall not be released until you have payed the last penny". What is the last penny? Bowing the knee, confessing with the mouth- "Jesus is Lord"- from an position of adoration and enlightenment.
Many stripes? Few stripes? How many stripes will it take? Till you relent and return to the Father of spirits :o)
Where else shall you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion?(Isaiah 1)
eaglesway, what do you think of this link concerning the word olam?
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY – G.T. Stevenson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
Very interesting! "however long it takes till the purpose is accomplished. "You shall not be released until you have payed the last penny".. "Many stripes? Few stripes? How many stripes will it take?"
And also in the articles about "Olam" it's intriguing that associated with it is the meaning of "hidden", "not disclosed or revealed".. I've come to think of 'Judgment' Day as an 'age' but we only see the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.. and the 2nd advent of Messiah Jesus as having 3 peaks.. (1)the last trumpet/1st resurrection/His return, (2)the 2nd resurrection, and (3)when "ALL things are made new and God Himself comes to Earth to live with (Tabernacle with) man. So "olam" in its association with "hidden" makes me think of this stretch of time which we are actually told not a lot about..
It's comforting to (now) see that the time in the cleansing, purifying LOF is not likely of a definite time or duration! As all cases I'm sure will be very individual.. What a wise God we have to do with!!
Yes, that is how I see it too, thru the glass darkly of course. Three peaks or three streams of the second advent.
the LOF, i my opinion, is being suspended in overwhelming light, in the presence of God( it is written the devil and his angels will be punished "in the presence of God ad His holy angels").
God is light. Light is fire to darkness. The fire is God's all consuming love. God is love. Our God is a consuming fire. Every man will be salted with fire, every sacrifice seasoned with salt.
Every thing hidden in darkness will be brought to light.
If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.
He that hides his transgression will not prosper, he that confesses and forsakes his sin will obtain mercy.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrigteousness.
John preached and they were baptized in the Jordan, "confessing their sins."
Every one will "come clean" eventually- every man will salted with fire. Some now, some in the ages to come.Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, every heart be broken/pierced, every spirit made contrite.
The blood will cover all, reconcile all, cleanse all.
The veil of Adam's guilt and shame(hiding from the face/presence) will be gone from all, God will be all in all, all will be forgiven- all set free....GLORY!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #8
ARGUMENTS
I believe that the Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 74 years old now.
People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.
Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #9
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a link to a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
THE MAIN LIBRARY AND IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #10
CONSEQUENCES OF THE ETERNAL TORMENT DOCTRINE
I'm 74 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #11
The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez. 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #12
Authors from the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #13
Fear
by Walter Lanyon
Fear can manifest only because of a belief in separation. As long as you are something apart from God you will experience, in one form or another, fear. It is subtle and hidden like a poisonous serpent coiled in the grass, liable to strike at any time--at the most unguarded moment, when least expected.
Its only power is given to it by thought, and it can be swollen by thought from a serpent into a dragon. All thoughts of evil are like toy balloons in that they are enlarged until finally the capacity is overtaxed and they burst. Sooner or later a fear will explode itself, however much or little damage it has done.
The panacea for all fear is your union with God.
The moment you are separated from ME and wander into the thought world (the vacuum of separation), you are subject to the laws of fear. The one who is filled with fear sees the ''ten thousand fall at your right hand,'' and is so convinced of the reality and power of evil that he fails to notice the one who passes through unscathed.
''Stand and see the salvation of the Lord'' has a definite, positive value to you NOW. For you are beginning to sense-see the power of being one instead of two. You are beginning to appropriate the instantaneous relief felt from this ONENESS.
This sudden appropriation of ONENESS is accompanied by the consciousness of how to eliminate the object of, or the belief in, fear. There are different ''cities'' of refuge into which you may run for every differing degree of fear; yet all are the same God. This ''running'' into God is not as symbolical as it appears. It is an actual fusing of you with the Father within you, and from that moment you are a majority, and you will know the NOTHINGNESS of the fear belief.
We arrive finally at the point, which is so full of the acceptance of God that it can and does say, ''Even if You slay me, yet I will say You are God''---and the last stand is taken. Even if You slay me---yet will I acknowledge this One and Only Power.
http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/pages.asp?pageid=37154
Quote from: eaglesway on March 31, 2013, 08:14:11 AM
Yes, that is how I see it too, thru the glass darkly of course. Three peaks or three streams of the second advent.
the LOF, i my opinion, is being suspended in overwhelming light, in the presence of God( it is written the devil and his angels will be punished "in the presence of God ad His holy angels").
God is light. Light is fire to darkness. The fire is God's all consuming love. God is love. Our God is a consuming fire. Every man will be salted with fire, every sacrifice seasoned with salt.
Every thing hidden in darkness will be brought to light.
If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.
He that hides his transgression will not prosper, he that confesses and forsakes his sin will obtain mercy.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrigteousness.
John preached and they were baptized in the Jordan, "confessing their sins."
Every one will "come clean" eventually- every man will salted with fire. Some now, some in the ages to come.Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, every heart be broken/pierced, every spirit made contrite.
The blood will cover all, reconcile all, cleanse all.
The veil of Adam's guilt and shame(hiding from the face/presence) will be gone from all, God will be all in all, all will be forgiven- all set free....GLORY!
Amen, very :goodpost:
We're not told much about the ages to come.. simply Millenium, 2nd resurrection and White Throne Judgment, and then, praise and glory :dsunny: :angelharp: when ALL things are made new and God Himself comes to the planet to abide with mankind.. I can't help thinking how sometime within all that, once someone, previously not believing, comes to the knowing of the
True God and His
True character and personality, mercy, kindness and well, source of every good thing they ever knew or experienced,and that He is all love everywhere that's ever been and all love they themself have ever felt, all love - that's Him! ..how can one help but come to love Him!!? In the ages to come we will find it is impossible not to love, Love/Him.
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 07, 2013, 02:55:21 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #12
Authors from the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
42 books!
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 07, 2013, 02:55:21 PM
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
80 books!
It sure is good to know there are so many books, articles and authors in support of a
loving God of UR!! :Book: :trampoline:
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 03, 2013, 03:25:34 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #11
The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).
I never knew that! Ezekiel, for some reason is a book of the Bible I've not often read and I'm not even sure if I've read all of!
Ezekiel 16:53
New International Version
"'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them"
In Jude when he says Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of 'eternal fire' one has to wonder, is there fire and flames there now.. No. Judgment yes.
And in the Book of Revelation when Revelation 19:3 says ""Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" will be the same.. the smoke of it (memory of it) will rise up (be remembered)..
I actually copy and pasted the list you made, to look them up later.. Awesome facts and cross references!! :2thumbs:
..
"meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures" it's amazing, actually that all the words translated for ever, do not actually say forever, or always, etc.. I'm currently working on the list used in the Old Testament.. only one could be said to imply a forever, but they're always questions or having nothing to do with judgment, etc.. (Yes, I usually am not satisfied except to do my own studies and word searches, etc.) I've done this before, but not on paper or typed up which is what I'm doing now.
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 08, 2013, 03:11:47 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #13
"Even if You slay me, yet I will say You are God"---and the last stand is taken. Even if You slay me---yet will I acknowledge this One and Only Power.
:mthumbsup:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #14
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
While the elect are enjoying life eonian, the non-elect will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
SEE
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
THE EONS
http://martinzender.com/Zenderature/the_eons.htm
THE EONS
http://www.hbci.com/~billstei/hae/aionverses.pdf
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #15
GRACE, PLUS NOTHING – James Coram
This is not to say that our efforts are not essential or that there will be nothing for us to do since it is God Who saves us from our failings. To the contrary, God graciously saves us by causing us to work, "training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon" Titus 2:11,12. But our efforts are merely a product; they are the means through which God saves us. We contribute nothing.
It is not a question of our discipline and volition, but of pride and self-reliance concerning our discipline and volition, of boasting in the flesh instead of glorying in the transforming power of God. As long as we continue to see ourselves, in the final sense, as the key to anything, we will remain proud, antagonistic to "the grace of God in truth" Col. 1:6.
It is one thing to conceive of ourselves, in a dutiful sense and relatively speaking, as "cooperating" with the Lord Jesus, as He leads us into paths of better service. It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves to be so utterly independent of the Supreme Deity Himself, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that even He is at a loss to change our will or walk without our help.
Luke 6:32-35 shows us what God's grace (thanks) is; He is gracious to the wicked, which means sinners like we all were when He was gracious to us. It's not that we have to preach so they can be saved, otherwise we're responsible for their "eternal damnation", and they have to receive the message (if we happen to present it to them), or else they will be eternally damned. Salvation is not based on human actions, but on divine actions. He chooses who to save and when, and at that moment, that soul is saved. And He will save all, as He has clearly said He will do.
We believe the message we heard, and we preach because we are so commanded, but God doesn't depend upon us to save ourselves, nor does He depend upon our conveying the message, to save others. He is the only Sovereign, and He so arranges EVERYTHING that each will be saved. Free will and chance are myths which have completely twisted the mindset of many Christians.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #16
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH ---
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78)
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 74 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your browser address bar.
0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE - Thomas Kissinger
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
24. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
25. GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm - Adlai Loudy
26. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
27. TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 10, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #15
GRACE, PLUS NOTHING – James Coram
...We contribute nothing.
...of boasting in the flesh instead of glorying in the transforming power of God. As long as we continue to see ourselves, in the final sense, as the key to anything, we will remain proud, antagonistic to "the grace of God in truth" Col. 1:6.
It is one thing to conceive of ourselves, in a dutiful sense and relatively speaking, as "cooperating" with the Lord Jesus, as He leads us into paths of better service. It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves
:2thumbs:
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 10, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #15
It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves to be so utterly independent of the Supreme Deity Himself, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that even He is at a loss to change our will or walk without our help.
:laugh2: :laugh2:
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 10, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #15
Luke 6:32-35 shows us what God's grace (thanks) is; He is gracious to the wicked, which means sinners like we all were when He was gracious to us. It's not that we have to preach so they can be saved, otherwise we're responsible for their "eternal damnation", and they have to receive the message (if we happen to present it to them), or else they will be eternally damned. Salvation is not based on human actions, but on divine actions. He chooses who to save and when, and at that moment, that soul is saved. And He will save all, as He has clearly said He will do.
:2thumbs: God is the one who moves (us=empty vessel, or we should be; He=the Holy Ghost in each one).. and He also, imo, provides times of rest, at which time is the temptation to 'worry' we have somehow fallen away and are unproductive, but it's good to rest
(in the finished work of Jesus! :2thumbs: :banana: ) so we will continue to pray, read, praise and study..
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 10, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #15
We believe the message we heard, and we preach because we are so commanded, but God doesn't depend upon us to save ourselves, nor does He depend upon our conveying the message, to save others. He is the only Sovereign, and He so arranges EVERYTHING that each will be saved. Free will and chance are myths which have completely twisted the mindset of many Christians.
:goodpost:
Oh man! You said it!! It is one of the major contributing factors and foundations of the hell theory which blasphemes God's Holy image every single day!!
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 09, 2013, 02:41:38 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #14
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
ABSOLUTELY!! :gsmile: :goodpost:
His ages will accomplish exactly what He wants.. exactly what His will is! Otherwise He is less than "God"!!! (LoGiC!!) :cloud9:
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 11, 2013, 02:58:23 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #16
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH ---
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78)
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 74 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
If necessary, copy and paste the urls into your browser address bar.
Oh that all in the faith would understand that!!
I may have to read all of these on your list! Before coming to Tentmaker, I didn't know there were MANY believing, supporting and writing in support of Universal Reconciliation..
(EDIT) P.S - the first on the list, I was so blessed right away (!) especially by this, QUOTE:
"For many years, as a Christian, I was unable to rest in God's love while trusting Him to bring me into wholeness." ...what a mouthful of wisdom!! HOW MANY lambs of Jesus need to hear this!! Truth which sets free.. not untruth mixed in, which binds.. and also the dark angels can use it to torment Jesus' own.. untruth leavens the lump/truth-dilutes its POWER.
The LINK: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
(also, same link) "Four Views of the Good News of Jesus Christ" - I never knew of these three, or how the two main streams have influenced the gospel message (lost some of its glory and picked up some baggage along the way!) un-churched semi hermit here.
VERY HELPFUL!! :gsmile: previously i don't read much books,etc about what the Bible says, for this reason, but these LINKS are different! (and as far as i know, not advising 'all is metaphor')
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #18
J. PRESTON EBY
A great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
Awesome!! I will be reading that and watching that later!
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 12, 2013, 03:41:31 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #18
J. PRESTON EBY
A great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
Absolutely! Especially reading the introductory series! As it's LEAPING right out at me.. sounds like a summary.. I love summaries..
"from a solid biblical perspective."
"
Highly Recommended!"
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #19
JUDAS
Here is why the case of Judas does not disprove UR.
"Let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
Regarding the confusion of the different versions, Louis Abbott adds the following note:
"Notice how the following versions translates this clause:
The ASV, 1901 margin, "Good were it for him if that man had not been born;"
Rotherham's version, "Well for him if that man had not been born;"
Murphy's edition of the Douay Version and the New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate, 1898,
"It were better for him, if that man had not been born;"
(the following three versions are quoted in the original spelling)
Wiclif, 1380, "It were good to hym if thilke man hadde not been borun;"
Tyndale, 1534, "Good were it for him if that man had never bene borne;"
Rheims, 1582, "it vvere good for him, if that man had not been borne."
and repeating the conclusion
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
IMO that is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
But even if it did refer to Judas, consider this.
A snippet from
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Scroll down and click on
BETTER NEVER BEEN BORN
"This was a proverbial expression among the Jews, and was not employed literally."
It was the same meaning as we have today when we say "I wish I had never been born", or "You will wish you had never been born."
"But what about Judas Iscariot? Doesn't it say it would have been better if he'd never been born?
Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!" It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus (the Son of Mankind/Him) if Judas (that man) had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39. (While many Bible versions mistranslate Matt.26:24, some do put the correct rendering in the margin.)
Concerning Judas' title, "son of destruction", John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being "lost", "destroyed" or "perished". It is unwise to assume the word describes "eternal damnation". "For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi)." Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons, the 3 classes of vivification, "hell", and "annihilation".
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #20
INTERPRETED VERSIONS ARE WRONG
God says what the Greek says, not what the interpreted versions say.
God says what the literal translations say.
There are several dozen Greek scholars who agree with John Wesley Hanson that interpreted versions are wrong.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote
"The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1Cor.15:28)." Dean Hough
Amen! and Amen!! I especially enjoyed reading the post about Judas! Very informing, enlightening, and sets it straight.. which I'd never heard it before, and am now glad I have! :mthumbsup: :ty:
...also, it's just 'crazy' when folks think someone else is changing the scripture, when what's 'changing' is from the "King's Englishe" (for instance) and back to the original, as it was spoken originally!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #21
LOVE WINS
Here is an analogy that I got from Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
A man courts a lady by continually expressing his love for her week after week, both verbally, and by bringing her gifts.
If he stops trying to persuade her to marry him, he loses everything.
But if he never stops trying to convince her until she says yes, then he goes to her place, gathers up all the gifts he gave her AND HER, and takes them back to his place for the rest of their lives.
Human love sometimes fails to elicit a loving response, but God's divine love is not hampered by the limitations of human love.
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
LOVE WINS
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 15, 2013, 03:02:05 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #21
LOVE WINS
Here is an analogy that I got from Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
A man courts a lady by continually expressing his love for her week after week, both verbally, and by bringing her gifts.
If he stops trying to persuade her to marry him, he loses everything.
But if he never stops trying to convince her until she says yes, then he goes to her place, gathers up all the gifts he gave her AND HER, and takes them back to his place for the rest of their lives.
Human love sometimes fails to elicit a loving response, but God's divine love is not hampered by the limitations of human love.
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
LOVE WINS
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
That is awesome! I'm so glad to have read it!! :cloud9: ..and a great site!
from: http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/ An excellent study!!/book for anyone searching, and not yet sure they can trust such bold statements as Col 1:20 and 1 Tim 4:10, Ps 22:27 (esp b), etc.
"many Christians are seeking for a purity which can only be found beyond man-made institutions"
"each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct."
"The Scriptures do not teach two different destinies for mankind They only seem to do so because of mistranslations. The Scriptures are the inspired words of God and therefore cannot be contradictory."
He tries very hard to express what He has learned after 50 years of what sounds like intense research and learning..
"What follows must be read very slowly and probably several times. I have made it as simple as I possibly can. One does not need to learn Greek to see what I hope will become plain to the average reader, but one does need to go to their translations and to a good concordance to verify that what I am writing is actually in the text. A Greek-English Interlinear would also be helpful, but not necessary. Furthermore, there may be some texts I will deal with that I may not be able to make plain enough what I want to express. If there are some passages you do not understand, just set them aside. I will present enough material that it should be easy for anyone to at least see that these words are not adequately translated in the King James Bible...."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #22
MUSLIMS
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too.
And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
For anyone who is interested, the following is a very informative link containing many reasons why I agree with Chad Holtz and why I understand completely why he could no longer go on pretending to his congregation that he believes in such a horrific concept of God as taught by his denomination's interpretation of the Bible, even though it cost him his job.
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hell-scholars-corner/
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
:iagree: It's total blasphemy and should be unimaginable, as it's highly illogical!! "God is love" 1 Jn 4:8.. God, of course can only be perfect. Therefor, the 'end' result of all this (human history, etc) can only be the-best-one-possible. And! It's clearly supported by scripture, we don't need to dismiss any verses, we simply need to see them as they are in order to share them when the call to do so arises.
Proof God is perfect, if He wasn't He too would not endure..
He has done ALL things in order to bring about the best of all possibilities.. It is not possible for a mere human or humans to conceive of something better than what He does/has. And will do.
'Hell' (as we know) is a pagan / pre Christian notion..
God is not reactive. He is proactive. He causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will.
"Oh if ONLY God could catch up to how bad the devil is and how evil some people are- the world could be such a nice place'....
Yeesh!
Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 17, 2013, 05:53:38 AM
God is not reactive. He is proactive. He causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will.
"Oh if ONLY God could catch up to how bad the devil is and how evil some people are- the world could be such a nice place'.... Yeesh!
Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
I love "great calm," especially when Jesus causes it in my soul and spirit. :HeartThrob:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #23
The age following The Great White Throne Judgment is sometimes called by theologians 'the age of consummation,' or 'the age of Jubilee,' or 'the age of the New Heaven and New Earth.'
By the time that age has ended, all fallen creatures will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20)."GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIMETHE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #24
MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe.
It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."
God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history. The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. (1Kings 8:6 literal translation instead of the most holy place.) They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time. It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #25
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
While the righteous are enjoying life eonian, the unrighteous will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
SEE
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #26
THE NARROW DOOR
The language is entirely confined to the present.
"Lord, are there few that be 'saved'?" The literal rendering is: "Are those being saved few?" The question relates entirely to the number then, at that time, that were entering the narrow door and accepting Christ.
But we know that sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #27
NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #28
OPPOSERS REFUTED
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
If necessary, copy and paste the links into your browser.
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick (CARM website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Hal Lindsey
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm
Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html
W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html
A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD'S TRUTH FOR TODAY LIBRARY and
IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
If the link doesn't open for you, click on the word "impatient"
Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism down through the centuries. Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
also see
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/Church-History.html
TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #29
"What about how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
..also it says the LOF was created for the devil and his angels.. the only time we hear "those not written in the book of life" (those not believing) "will go to the 2nd death which is the LOF." - This is said after aLL have experienced having been resurrected from their grave and have also witnessed the White Throne Judgment of all lives and all human history. I find myself wondering, who, after all that, isn't going to believe?
There's really only one verse which could possibly be seen to imply all must believe before death or all is LOST, this is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" - well certainly to be resurrected still in one's sins will not be as joyful (initially) as the 1st resurrection..
I know I'm not an educated Bible scholar, but I'm not sure how this has been so missed ..as to when in the timetable, it's written "those not believing.." :dunno: :gsmile:
Quote from: marie glen on April 23, 2013, 06:46:23 PM
..also it says the LOF was created for the devil and his angels.. the only time we hear "those not written in the book of life" (those not believing) "will go to the 2nd death which is the LOF." - This is said after aLL have experienced having been resurrected from their grave and have also witnessed the White Throne Judgment of all lives and all human history. I find myself wondering, who, after all that, isn't going to believe?
There's really only one verse which could possibly be seen to imply all must believe before death or all is LOST, this is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent you will die in your sins" - well certainly to be resurrected still in one's sins will not be as joyful (initially) as the 1st resurrection..
I know I'm not an educated Bible scholar, but I'm not sure how this has been so missed ..as to when in the timetable, it's written "those not believing.." :dunno: :gsmile:
Marie, my feelings exactly. :thumbsup:
IMO, The idea that the sentence, "those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life were thrown into the LoF" and what Jesus Himself speaks of those unto whom it will be said, "Depart from me into the fire that was prepared for the devil and His angels" and "Better to enter heaven maimed than to go whole in the gehenna" leads me to believe that all of the words in the scriptures that warn of the intensity and unpleasantness is very real- altho, not IMO physical fire- more like the unpleasantness of an intervention with a drug addict.
Have you ever seen how someone who is surrounded by people who love them and are trying to help them SEE that they NEED TO CHANGE can resist wisdom and compassion even unto death, all the while demanding "UNDERSTANDING" and, being in denial, seek to have the whole universe revolve around their appetite and narcissism?
This is, IMO, what the LoF is about- where EVERY HIDDEN THING WILL BE BrOUghT TO LIGHT. WHat did Adam and eve do in the garden after they ate? They HID. We should not underestimate the hardness and wickedness of men. REBELLION IS NOT ABOUT EVIDENCE. It is about love and self love and the desire to serve versus the desire to rule. The ones who are thrown into the lake of fire, someIMO, to receive "few stripes", some "many stripes" KNEW what they had violated BEFORE they went before the throne. One must KNOW in order to incur a penalty.
"Tho they knew God they did not glorify Him as God and their foolish hearts were hardened".
The one who KNEW HIS MASTERS WILL AND DID IT NOT will receive many stripes, the one who knew not few stripes.
IMO The Great White Throne is a tribunal for the judgment of the deeds done in the flesh. It is not a place where God says, "OK, I was only kidding, come on in". Those who have done well will enter into the joy of their Lord, "Well done thou good and faithful servant".....those who have done evil will enter aionian kolassis- whatever that is, it will be no more than what is needed to bring about the repentance of the creature upon whom it falls- and according to the testimony of our Lord and virtually every apostle(the chief cornerstone and the twelve foundation stones) it is has a fearful aspect to it.
IMO, We are way to quick to reinterpret the warnings of scripture as if they are just shots over the bow from a ship who has no real intention of delivering a blow.
If it were just James who said something like, "WOE unto you rich, The blood of the poor and the wages of them that you stole is crying out against you from the ground and it will eat you flesh like fire in the Day" and "Cleanse your hearts you adulterers and adultresses and cleanse your hands you sinners" perhaps we could write it off.
But it is there in the words of our Lord Jesus, the words of Paul, the words of Peter, the words of Jude, eve the words of John the beloved- all warning of wrath to come and the penalty of ignoring the voice that speaks from heaven.
Look at Annanias and Saphira. Behold both the kindness and severity of God. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
It is wonderful to be saved- even if it requires one to saved, "but as through fire"........
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #30
QUESTIONS WITHOUT ANSWERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
From the introduction
"To those holding a limited view of God's plan of salvation, they are truly Questions Without Answers, but, to those who rely on God's Word, the answers become apparent as His truth is revealed to them."
An important follow-up! - by Richard Condon
A REFUTATION AND A RESPONSE
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
Quote from: Molly on April 23, 2013, 06:50:51 PM
Marie, my feelings exactly. :thumbsup:
:icon_flower: :trampoline:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 24, 2013, 08:16:51 AM
IMO, The idea that the sentence, "those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life were thrown into the LoF" and what Jesus Himself speaks of those unto whom it will be said, "Depart from me into the fire that was prepared for the devil and His angels" and "Better to enter heaven maimed than to go whole in the gehenna" leads me to believe that all of the words in the scriptures that warn of the intensity and unpleasantness is very real- altho, not IMO physical fire- more like the unpleasantness of an intervention with a drug addict.
Have you ever seen how someone who is surrounded by people who love them and are trying to help them SEE that they NEED TO CHANGE can resist wisdom and compassion even unto death, all the while demanding "UNDERSTANDING" and, being in denial, seek to have the whole universe revolve around their appetite and narcissism?
This is, IMO, what the LoF is about- where EVERY HIDDEN THING WILL BE BrOUghT TO LIGHT. WHat did Adam and eve do in the garden after they ate? They HID. We should not underestimate the hardness and wickedness of men. REBELLION IS NOT ABOUT EVIDENCE. It is about love and self love and the desire to serve versus the desire to rule. The ones who are thrown into the lake of fire, someIMO, to receive "few stripes", some "many stripes" KNEW what they had violated BEFORE they went before the throne. One must KNOW in order to incur a penalty.
"Tho they knew God they did not glorify Him as God and their foolish hearts were hardened".
The one who KNEW HIS MASTERS WILL AND DID IT NOT will receive many stripes, the one who knew not few stripes.
IMO The Great White Throne is a tribunal for the judgment of the deeds done in the flesh. It is not a place where God says, "OK, I was only kidding, come on in". Those who have done well will enter into the joy of their Lord, "Well done thou good and faithful servant".....those who have done evil will enter aionian kolassis- whatever that is, it will be no more than what is needed to bring about the repentance of the creature upon whom it falls- and according to the testimony of our Lord and virtually every apostle(the chief cornerstone and the twelve foundation stones) it is has a fearful aspect to it.
IMO, We are way to quick to reinterpret the warnings of scripture as if they are just shots over the bow from a ship who has no real intention of delivering a blow.
If it were just James who said something like, "WOE unto you rich, The blood of the poor and the wages of them that you stole is crying out against you from the ground and it will eat you flesh like fire in the Day" and "Cleanse your hearts you adulterers and adultresses and cleanse your hands you sinners" perhaps we could write it off.
But it is there in the words of our Lord Jesus, the words of Paul, the words of Peter, the words of Jude, eve the words of John the beloved- all warning of wrath to come and the penalty of ignoring the voice that speaks from heaven.
Look at Annanias and Saphira. Behold both the kindness and severity of God. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
It is wonderful to be saved- even if it requires one to saved, "but as through fire"........
Aha! :Chinscratch: I think you are right.. or rather know you are, especially when I read "
Depart from me into the fire that was prepared for the devil and His angels" - not intended for mankind but so sad some will stubbornly think they can hold out against truth, and what is, and how it cannot ever be changed! :gsmile:
Even tho I think of the fire at His return as (man's thermal-nuclear) I'm sure it is sure to hold true for that at the end of the day of the White Throne Judgment (and also the fire just previous to the 2nd resurrection when
"the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them"Or.. is the LORD just condensing as He so often does? with separating the sheep and goats at His return, mentioned in one breath with the LOF at the very end when death and the grave are thrown into the LOF..? :dunno: :gsmile:
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 24, 2013, 02:50:10 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #30
From the introduction
"To those holding a limited view of God's plan of salvation, they are truly Questions Without Answers, but, to those who rely on God's Word, the answers become apparent as His truth is revealed to them."
QUESTIONS WITHOUT ANSWERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
:2thumbs: Wow!! This one certainly hits the nail on the head!!! :2thumbs:
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 24, 2013, 02:50:10 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #30An important follow-up! - by Richard Condon
A REFUTATION AND A RESPONSE
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
this one is very good too!! I especially agree with the first rebuttal right off the bat!
Quote: "With the injecting of the word "brainless," Don Hewey takes a major step backwards in setting the tone for what will follow by resorting to insult. Such behavior (ad hominem attack) does not give us confidence in one who nonetheless seeks to "expose false teaching." I would certainly advise caution when reading the writings of any person, believer or not, who uses such distractions.--Richard C Condon"That is SO true, no matter what topic, when someone feels insecure in their position, that's when the insults and condescension is rolled out! It's very transparent..
P.S. - O what a weak image of God he serves..!
Quote: "In the end, will more people be living in heaven, or in hell? If eternal torment is true, as Don believes, and the eternal destiny of mankind is determined at death, then the vast majority of the human race are destined to suffer forever. Hell will surely be more populated than heaven. The plan and purpose of God will have failed. The creatures God allegedly loves will be lost forever. The cross (intended to reconcile all God's enemies--Col. 1:20) will have been a failure. The will of God (that none perish--2 Pet. 3:9) will have failed. God will have been overcome. Evil, the Devil, will have prevailed."
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 24, 2013, 02:50:10 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #30
A REFUTATION AND A RESPONSE (to et)
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
These are GREaT !! These answers and refutes
should be able to convince any hardened et'er (pardon my speech pls). Or rather, the responses to the questions challenging the doctrine of "et", made by Don Hewey, who opposes Universal Reconciliation,
should convince anybody! (But of course it's hard to penetrate the layers of what has been learned through repeated teachings! :sigh: so sad.. but praise!! :dsunny: God wins all!!)
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2013, 04:25:19 PM
Aha! :Chinscratch: I think you are right.. or rather know you are, especially when I read "Depart from me into the fire that was prepared for the devil and His angels" - not intended for mankind but so sad some will stubbornly think they can hold out against truth, and what is, and how it cannot ever be changed! :gsmile:
Even tho I think of the fire at His return as (man's thermal-nuclear) I'm sure it is sure to hold true for that at the end of the day of the White Throne Judgment (and also the fire just previous to the 2nd resurrection when "the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them"
Or.. is the LORD just condensing as He so often does? with separating the sheep and goats at His return, mentioned in one breath with the LOF at the very end when death and the grave are thrown into the LOF..? :dunno: :gsmile:
Yes, I do think the Holy Spirit is condensing, and that we are given no full picture from which to construst a systematic theology about many of these things that are seen through a glass darkly- I do think however that the things the Lord says about the essence of these experiences will apply across the spectrum as they play out their actual sequencesl, "in time"-
an administration of the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11)- in the ages to come as they unroll like a scroll. And of course I rejoice that no matter what the difference in how we see these end times events and types and shadows- we all agree that "the last adversary is death" and that God will be "all in all" in the end- "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things :dsunny:
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?"
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
.......absolutely! :gthumbsup: :gsmile:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #31
RAY PRINZING
Everyone has an "opinion," including Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor).
I'm just so glad that I discovered his "opinion" that enabled me to recover from a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 74 now) caused by my inability to trust a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
During my breakdown, every morning, as I washed my family's dishes, and before going to sleep at night, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing's many tapes.
I have listened to 178 of them once, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH (because someone else had the copyright on GOSPEL ECHOES) and I gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.
Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.
For several years my 100 year old dad (who is still living) called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing's writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray's tapes.
As I listened to Ray's tapes I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.
And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.
All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several pages of Google links about Ray Prinzing.
ETers frequently like to say that Ray Prinzing was deceived by the devil.
I encourage anyone who might be interested, to check out his writings and judge for yourself.
I was especially helped by his book called
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL
http://www.sigler.org/sirius8/rpredemption.htm
http://hellbusters.8m.com/contall.htm
Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #32
RAY PRINZING TAPES
RAY PRINZING IS MY EARTHLY HERO AND MENTOR
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GOOD WRITINGS
During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to suffer forever, I would listen to a Ray Prinzing tape while I washed the dishes of my family every day, and before I went to sleep at night. Through the years that I repeatedly listened to these tapes I became more and more confident that that I was going to recover from my breakdown.
In the opinion of Rodger Tutt of Toronto, Canada, the following are the best of all of Ray Prinzing's taped sermons.
6 CHRIST OUR MERCY SEAT
8 NO SUBSTITUTE
9 TRUST
16 SEE NO EVIL
29 THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
32 SUFFICIENT THE EVIL
35 CHANGING THY STRENGTH
36 AS KINGS AND PRIESTS
38 REVELATION TO REVELATION
42 THE TREE OF LIFE
48 KEPT IN PEACE
51 GOD'S RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENTS
55 ALLEGORY OF RACHEL
56 NONE SHALL BE LOST
59 REPENTANCE TOWARDS GOD
61 AND GOD REPENTED
63 THE END OF THE LORD
71 URGED ON BY FAITH
76 MINISTRY OF SALT
89 BLESSINGS REWARDED OR INHERITED
90 NO CONDEMNATION
95 NOT SOMEHOW BUT TRIUMPHANTLY
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
105 THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
111 OF THE SAME LUMP
119 HELD TOGETHER BY LOVE
121 ESTABLISH THE SECOND
122 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART TWO
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
128 ADVANCE IN ADVERSITY
131 ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
133 AFTER THE PRESSURES
134 THE POLISHED SHAFT
135 INTERNAL TRIUMPH
136 RECONCILED INTO HIMSELF
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
142 THE HIDDEN ONES
143 GOD'S GENTLENESS TO MAN
147 BEYOND DISCIPLINE
148 BEHOLDING HIM
149 DELIVERANCE
150 ENTER THY CHAMBERS
151 GOD OF THE VALLEY
152 GOD OF THE MOUNTAINS
153 IN QUIETNESS
154 IN CONFIDENCE
158 RENEWED INTO HIS MIND
160 EAT THE BOOK
161 HOLD FAST TO THE HEAD
162 THE SEVENTH MAN
164 SORROW TURNED INTO JOY
165 MAKE READY A PEOPLE
166 DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS
167 THE BIRTHRIGHT CHALLENGE
168 MY FATHER IS GREATER
169 HIS PARTICIPATING PRESENCE
170 CHANGES, TYRANNY OR BLESSING
171 TILL HE PLEASE
172 IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
173 KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
174 THE SWORD GUARDED WAY
175 THE HEAVENLY VISION
176 DEFEATING THE ACCUSERS
177 NEITHER TOIL NOR SPIN
178 THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
180 HE THAT SHALL ENDURE
181 LIFT UP A STANDARD
183 MUCH MORE
186 WHEN GOD HIDES HIS FACE
187 FAITH VICTORIOUS
188 DIVINE CONFIRMATION
189 WAIT FOR WISDOM'S CHILDREN
190 GOD CHOSE OUR FATHERS
192 LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER
194 EARTHEN VESSEL SINKS
196 A VERY PRESENT HELP
197 A NEW COAT, YEAR BY YEAR
198 COME UP HITHER
199 UNDER HIS SHADOW
200 A HUSHED SECRET
201 EXPECTATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
202 RETURNING INTO GOD
203 PUT A DIFFERENCE
204 FROM EAST TO WEST
206 TIME OF YOUR SOJOURNING
207 HIS HAND IS STRETCHED OUT
208 WHAT SHALL I DO?
209 TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS
210 GIVE DILIGENCE
211 LIVING EPISTLES
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
218 HOLD FAST TILL I COME
219 ACTIVELY RESTING
221 AN INNER REJOICING
222 BLESS ME INDEED
224 NO MORE ECCENTRIC
225 NOT A SPIRIT OF FEAR
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
227 AND SUDDENLY
228 THE HEAVENLY HOST ATTENDS
229 FIT FOR THE KINGDOM
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
231 GOD IS IN CONTROL
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
233 OUR THREEFOLD JUDGEMENT
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
238 FROM POVERTY TO RICHES
239 ABIDING IN GOD
240 PARTS OF HIS WAYS
241 CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST
242 MASTER OF MYSELF
243 ANOINTED EYE SIGHT
244 FAITH THAT OBTAINS
246 THE FURNACE FOR GOLD
247 RAISE UP THE FOUNDATION
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
250 INWARD REVELATION OF THE SON
251 KINGDOM LIFE TRANSFORMING
252 SO GROWS THE KINGDOM
253 AFTER YE HAVE SUFFERED
254 CHOSEN TO KNOW HIS WILL
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
256 OUR THREEFOLD RESURRECTION
257 A THORN FOR THE FLESH
258 THE MINISTRY OF WAITING
259 THERE IS A RIVER
267 HEARING, LEARNING, COMING
268 THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE ME
269 HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
270 GOLD IN THE MAKING
271 MAKE TO LACK, READY TO FILL
273 ACQUAINTED WITH THE ALMIGHTY
274 EACH IN HIS OWN RANK
278 GOD'S UNFINISHED WORK
280 FULLY PERSUADED
285 CONTINUALLY WITH HIM
286 SURRENDERED TO HIS LORDSHIP
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
296 INIQUITY SHALL HAVE AN END
297 OVERFLOW WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS
298 THINGS BELONGING TO PEACE
301 HIS DESIRE IS TOWARD ME
302 REFINED AS SILVER
303 AND GOD REMEMBERED
304 LOOSE THE PRISONER
305 ASPECTS OF SPIRITUAL LIFE
306 GOD'S INDWELLING CONTROL
307 OUT OF HIM WE CAME
308 GRACE UPON GRACE
309 JUDGEMENT RESTS FOR A LIGHT
310 HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER
312 THE SURE MERCIES OF DAVID
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
316 TOTAL AVAILABILITY
317 VIEWING THE THIRD DAY
326 KINGDOM AUTHORITY
THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE RAY PRINZING TAPES
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GREAT WRITINGS
Ray Prinzing's very best, and his two extra good tapes.
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST (extra good)
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
339 GOD SO LOVED HE GAVE
352 BUT GOD MUCH MORE
385 FREEDOM OF THE GLORY
387 ESTABLISHED BY GRACE (extra good)
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #33
FROM RICHARD CONDON'S GOD'S TRUTH FOR TODAY ARCHIVES
THE MAIN LIBRARY AND IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
If the link won't open, click on the word "impatient?"
This is a link to a large library of writings by many believers in universal salvation.
I think the sub-section called IN THE GARDEN is especially good.
Roger, thank you for sharing your insights with us. It has blessed me many times. I must continually remind myself that God is in charge of this crazy world. You help me to do that.
Quote from: Deena on May 04, 2013, 04:01:15 PM
Rodger, thank you for sharing your insights with us. It has blessed me many times. I must continually remind myself that God is in charge of this crazy world. You help me to do that.
My pleasure Deena. There is nothing I like doing more than sharing on the interenet. I am continually posting on nearly 100 forums including (since Christmas) FACEBOOK.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #34
THE DESTINY OF SATAN
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16). (end quote)
"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote) Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." (end quote)
AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued." (end quote)
ERSKINE'S SKETHCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all." (end quote)
CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe." (end quote)
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
"What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself." (end quote)
COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.
TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
"Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God's affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God's love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God's limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.
Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!"
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #35
REVELATION 20:10
A frequently asked question regarding Revelation 20:10
"How can there only be one age after the millennium when the devil, at the end of the thousand years, is to be tormented unto ages of ages?"
Response by James Coram.
"The problem here is a loose usage of terms. The thousand years of the saint's reign does not constitute the entirety of the coming epochal eon or duration. The two do not end at the same time.
The period of time covered by the word eon depends upon the context. The expression "for the eon" does not necessarily include the entirety of the eon intended. While some seem to think that it must include the whole of a given eon, on the contrary, when an action occurs in an eon, it usually refers only to the rest of it. Our Lord spoke to the barren fig tree, "No longer, by any means, may fruit be coming from you for the eon." Did He forbid fruit from the deluge to His coming? The tree was not even planted until a thousand years after the flood, and it did produce fruit in this eon, but was to do so no longer (Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14; John 13:8; 1Cor. 8:13).
So also in the plural. "For the eons" does not denote the whole of them. Christ shall reign over the house of Jacob "for the eons," yet only two of them will be left when the kingdom commences (Luke 1:33).
The same is true of the phrase "for the eons of the eons." We read that the saints will be reigning for the eons of the eons (Rev. 22:5). But some of these saints will not be alive at the commencement of the millennial eon. We cannot delay this eon after the advent of the Messiah. Yet Daniel and the dead circumcision saints are not raised until seventy-five days later. Part of the eon will be past when they commence to reign with Him the thousand years (Rev. 20:6).
The same usage is found with reference to the torment of the Adversary. Although the wild beast and the false prophet have been in the lake of fire a thousand years before him (Rev. 19:20), only one phrase is used for both: "the eons of the eons (Rev. 20:10). At that juncture, how much of that eon still remains, we do not know. But no matter how little, so it was that our Lord and His apostles spoke, and we should follow His example. This usage in Rev. 20:10 of the word eon does not affect its meaning. The limitations are in the context, not in the word.
If you look in the Concordant Version of Rev 20:7 please look at the vertical line in front of "finished." "And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail." You could say: whenever the thousand years should be finishing . . . ." So Satan is cast into the lake of fire when the thousand years is finishing and through the new earth eon thus comprising the eons of the eons.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10. Those who hold to the theory of "annihilation" contend that Satan is consumed in the lake of fire, ceasing to exist before the new earth begins. Yet the text is plain: he will be tormented during TWO eons; what remains of the "millennial" eon (which lasts a little over 1,000 years), and the final eon on the new earth. Likewise, we are told of those who "shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." Rev. 22:5. That they shall be reigning on the new earth is apparent- Rev. 21:24. Likewise, Satan will be alive (and in torment) during the final eon.
Mistranslating "eons of the eons" as "forever and ever" solves nothing; it only feeds the vile theory of eternal torment, while generating considerable confusion. As for those vessels of indignation who are cast into the lake of fire near the end of the millennial eon, for them that lake is the second death. Yet they are not annihilated; their part is in that lake during the final eon- Rev. 21:8. They are not described as "nonexistent", rather, they are described as being outside the holy city- Rev. 22:15. They will be dead until death is abolished at the consummation of the eons."
Very interesting!
I also think what is commonly called Judgment 'Day' will be a short age.. and satan is thrown to the LOF at the "finishing" of the millenium (a 1000 year age) which is before the Judgment/review age aka, Great White Throne Judgment
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #36
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does,
In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6.
See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and
since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just
that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #37
THE GRAND ASSERTION – Don Hicks
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing". I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios". "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type. The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power". Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".
The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever. The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe." The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista". Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever". Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever? What's more than forever? That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.
An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing. Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID, ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN. NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will only come to belief after their physical death.
At this point some might think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles. Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's.
God grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his traditions, but God's word does not speak of it. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Phi 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake."
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES. "ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for the ages. Amen. 1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD DAVID was inspired to write: Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations ISAIAH was inspired to write: Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
PAUL was inspired to write: Phi 2:10-11 "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God." JOHN was inspired to record: Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for the ages of the ages!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment. Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the Father". It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."(1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD
Excellent. Awesome. Enlightening.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 10, 2013, 06:58:56 PM
Excellent. Awesome. Enlightening.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #38
OUR HEAVENLY FATHERAccording to Jesus, by nature, we are children of the devil (John 8:44).
But over and above that are the words that Jesus spoke to the multitude.
"For One is your Father, Who is in heaven." (Matt. 23:1 and 9)
As sinners, by attitude and actions we demonstrate that we are children of the devil.
But by right of creation, and by right of redemption through Jesus Christ, God is the Heavenly Father of everyone, even Satan (Col. 1:20).
For Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole kosmos (Greek). (1John 2:2)
Sooner or later, according to His perfect timing for each individual, God will effectively call everyone out of darkness into His marvelous light, first the chosen generation, then all the rest later. (1Peter 2:9; Col. 1:20)
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God."
The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIMETHE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #39
THE FOLLOWING IS BY BRIAN ON CITY-DATA CHRISTIAN FORUM
It is an "0ff-the-cuff" writing that is so good I strongly feel it is worth sharing!!
"pcamps has been very scripturally bringing us back to the fact that God is not holding men's sins against them. Can you believe it? Can God just forgive people freely? Is that fair? Is that "just??"
Well, it's not only fair. It's GRACE!!
Now, from this link here: Sovereignty Scriptures
I was truly blessed this morning.
Here's what I feel the LORD was showing me this morning, verse-by-verse:
Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now many refers to the whole world. Just as the "many" in Romans 5 refers to all mankind, so here too, many are indeed called by God, in God's time. However, only a few are chosen in this life (such as Paul the apostle) to declare His Grace and His Glory to the world.
Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
When God makes the sinner to hear His word, He causes the man to be converted and healed. Without this intervention of God directly in a person's life, there can be no healing and conversion. God does it all, in His time. When one person is "saved," that's God at work. If a person is "not saved," it's simply that God is not yet doing work in that person.
Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.
Again, it is GOD who TURNS us AWAY from our sin. He does it in His time. It is an active work on His part, and until He works in the individual, that person can do nothing.
Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.
See that? God added the Law on purpose, in order to increase the transgression. Do you believe that God is for us? If you do, then you must know by now that God increased transgression, in order that His grace would supercede it. It's all GOD's doing!! Praise God!
Let's continue:
Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Here again we see clearly, that justification is God's gift, brought in by His Own Hand, and has been extended to ALL mankind. That includes Hitler and Bundy, like it or not!
Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Yes, God made vessels of wrath. But He doesn't show His wrath on them, but brings them unto salvation by grace, according to His timing.
11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.
Here is God's final plan. He has made all people sinners, in order to have mercy upon them all! His grace is what saves us, not any works we have done. It is G-R-A-C-E which He bestows upon each sinner, one-by-one, reviving each one as He sees fit!
Grace means that man has no part in it whatsoever. Grace means that, one day, God comes to you and draws you unto Him, giving you conversion and healing. It is by grace that we are saved. As He called Saul, so He will do to each one, in His own time.
Praise God!!
I hope someone out there can hear this!!
Blessings,
brian
A little more on grace:
Jesus told His disciples that no one would be able to come to Him without the Father's drawing power. (Like a spiritual tractor beam..)
ET denys this. ET says that man can draw himself to God at any time. But that is not scriptural. Grace means that it is God's doing, not man's. Here's more:
Quote:
"Lk. 8:10 To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables; in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand."
God purposely opens the eyes of some people, and blinds other people. Why? To show His Grace in His time!
Quote:
"Lk. 10:21-22 No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Here again, Jesus shows us plainly that it is the decision of the Father and the Son, not man.
Quote:
"Mk. 4:10-12 To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables.... lest they return again and be forgiven."
Question: Have you repented and been forgiven?? If yes, then you must know that it was GOD who made you to understand it. Men who have not been drawn yet do not understand that they have been forgiven! Hallelujah! BUT, when the Father DRAWS you, He spontaneously converts and forgives and heals you!! It is HIS doing, not man's. This is what is so important to understand. Otherwise, you cannot understand what is meant by God's grace.
Quote:
"Jn. 6:65 For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Does the Father "grant" it to everyone? Yes, but not at the same time! That's why some are saved now. "Many are called, but few are chosen." That doesn't mean that most are rejected! That means that a few are chosen in this life. But all are called eventually.
Quote:
"Jn. 12:32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself."
Here's the promise! Jesus will indeed draw all men. Some now, the rest later. Count on it!
Quote:
"Jn. 17:2 Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give life eonian."
Does Jesus have authority over all mankind? YES, and He knows how to use it to our advantage, folks! It's called GRACE!
Quote:
"Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."
Did God do something here without man's permission?!? YES! He BLESSED us by turning us from our wickedness!
Does that include Ted Bundy?? YES! (But Bundy didn't know it, poor fellow.. But by now he probably already knows it! )
THAT is God's GRACE. He reveals His Power to us individually, according to when He so chooses. Individually. And when He does, we are set free!
Quote:
"Acts 11:18 God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Repentance IS GRANTED, NOT CHOSEN. By GRACE we are saved. God's decision, NOT ours!
Quote:
"Acts 18:27 On arriving, he [Paul] was a great help to those who by grace had believed."
and this:
Quote:
"Acts 16:14 And the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
Now do you see it???? Oh, I do hope so!!!
Blessings of God's grace to all!!!
Brian
Men are afraid of God. And death.
Why?
Because they haven't yet been shown by the Father that they have been blessed with Life! And when He draws them to Himself, they will automatically convert and be revived from the dead! All this, by God's grace!
Jesus told the centurion that he would be "thrust down to hell." Was he? I believe he was. But not in the afterlife, but while on Earth, when he saw people receiving God's grace to know Life! What Life? Eternal Life? It is a quality of life. And others were receiving it, and he was tormented because he was not yet drawn by the Father.
But when the Father decides to draw him individually, he will spontaneously repent, be healed and revived into that same Eternal Life.
All according to God's grace.
May God's grace touch each of us today!"
brian
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #40
MYTHS
"...they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4
Scripture: "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
Myth: "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
Scripture: "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20, 21.
Myth: "Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest."
Scripture: "...Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him..." "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
Myth: "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
Scripture: "For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." Romans 11:32
Myth: "It was Lucifer's doing, and Adam's. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins."
Scripture: "and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.
Myth: "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #41
THE MANY
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #42
THE MILLENNIAL AGE
"We have seen that the Millennial age with all its glory is filled with judgment and with an iron rule; and that notwithstanding its unspeakable blessings and Israel's preeminence, it is far from a perfect state. It can not be the final age. The final age must come with the New Heavens and the New Earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."
THE MILLENIAL AGE
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch7millenial_age.html
Absolutement!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #43
THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #44
Answers to hundreds of questions raised by partialists about universal reconciliation:
http://www.urqa.com/
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #45
The "Offer" – Kenneth Larsen
Imagine this scenario. An automobile manufacturer builds a vehicle
model which it hopes will become a great success. During testing,
however, it becomes apparent that the car suffers from a severe design
flaw and would pose an imminent danger to the public were it released
for sale. Instead of correcting the flaw, the manufacturer decides it
has a better idea; it mentions the flaw on page 122 of the owner's
manual and explains there how the owner can have the defect corrected
at the nearest dealership "free of charge".
Does it appear rather lopsided that the vehicle is sold to
unsuspecting customers with little if any mention of the design
defect? Does it appear rather absurd that the responsibility for
discovering the dangerous defect and having it corrected falls upon
the buyer, when the builder could have fixed the problem before taking
the car to market?
Imagine this scenario. Because of the sin of our forefather, Adam, we
all inherit sin and mortality. None of us are tested as he was, in
order to see if we will be a righteous person or a sinner; we are all
given mortality. Our choices have nothing to do with our present
condition as sinners; we are born that way.
As for salvation from sin and death, that will depend on finding the
proper message and acting on it in an effective manner; otherwise the
condition we inherit at birth will be our everlasting downfall.
Does it appear rather lopsided that the condemnation is universal and
our choice has nothing to do with it, but our salvation from that
condemnation requires our active participation? Does it appear rather
absurd that the responsibility for obtaining salvation depends, in the
final analysis, upon each individual, while we are in no way
responsibe for our needing that salvation in the first place? Doesn't
it seem strange that perdition is an inherited condition, while
salvation is only an "offer" made to those fortunate enough to stumble
upon it?
Fact is, salvation is not an offer we happen upon; it's a gift. And a
Savior is One Who saves. In 1 Timothy 4:9-11, we read, "Faithful is
the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and
being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour
of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and
teaching." God is the Savior of all mankind, for salvation is the
destiny of all. 1 Cor. 15:20-28; 1 Tim. 4:10; Jn. 12:32; Col. 1:20;
Eph. 1:10; Ro. 5:18, 19; Phil. 2:9-11. God is the Savior of believers
especially because He prefers some from the beginning for salvation
now and during the eons of the eons (2 Thes. 2:13; Rev. 20:4, 5).
Others are vessels of indignation, as indicated in Romans 9, and will
not be saved until the consummation mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:24.
Salvation is not an "offer"; God enlightens all, at the time He
chooses. John 1:9-13.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #46
UR RESPONSES
RESPONSES TO SCRIPTURE ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSALISM
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
RESPONSES TO PHILISOPHICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSALISM
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #47
CHOOSING – part 1
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 74 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about "eternal hell" nearly always gets bogged down with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
Also see
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #48
CHOOSING – part 2
ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE
Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm (the author, Charles Slagle's personal website containing many other good writings about the subject)
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
Or
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
Or
CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
Or
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED (If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn't hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son's death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That's the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that's the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 25, 2013, 03:44:06 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #48
CHOOSING – part 2
ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE
Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm (the author, Charles Slagle's personal website containing many other good writings about the subject)
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
Or
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
Or
CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
Or
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED (If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn't hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son's death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That's the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that's the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #49
TRANSLATIONS
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
1. Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
3. Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age."
8. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."
9. Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."
10. The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."
12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of "everlasting punishment."
14. Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)".
15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment." The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Chapter Eleven
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #50
UNFORGIVABLE SIN
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/spiritblasphemy.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #51
VESSELS OF DISHONOR
For anyone who may be interested, all of the arguments presented by ETers that universalism is not scriptural have been refuted in detail in this online book.
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (published 2007)
It can an be downloaded free and read online here
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
I thank God for being able to see that believers in eternal torment will remain believers in eternal torment for as long as God wants them to.
God needs them as vessels of the grossest dishonor, a foil of contrast against which He will demonstrate the power of His love that never fails and His undefeatable grace.
But after the resurrection God will refashion all believers in eternal torment into vessels of honor because they were marred in the Potter's hands and they never leave His hands.
The doctrine of eternal torment is part of the black background against which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation, using the brushes of His love that never fails, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
After believers in eternal torment have done their very best to convince others about what God will not do, God is going to do it anyway.
Believers in eternal torment will probably not want to have anything to do with this link, but others on this forum might.
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #52
On City-Data Christian forum there is an ETer named twin-spin who frequently likes to refer to universal reconciliation as "vomit." He is the most extreme ETer that I have ever encountered. He believes that all Christian URs are going to suffer forever in "hell."
twin-spin's "vomit" versus UR's "vomit"
twin-spin's definition of "vomit"
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
UR's defintion of "vomit"
Sustaining anyone alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
A snippet from A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
"We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called 'goodness.'
In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.
We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God's creatures miserable; and this is called 'badness.'
Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures?
No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #53
WHO SHALL WORSHIP GOD?
"ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
wow! Twin spin sounds psychotic! :Chinscratch: something to ponder..
Very nice links!! sounds like a very good book!
QUOTE from Roger Tutt:
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
aND THIS! is awesome! I'm keeping the references handy!
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 30, 2013, 03:15:32 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #53
WHO SHALL WORSHIP GOD?
"ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #54
A TRIBUTE TO MY FATHERS WORK
by Steven Tutt
Rodger Tutt has taken it upon himself to address and confront one of the central ideas of many Christians and of one most misused and misdirected tools of Christianity; that of controlling people through the fear of endless hell.
His heart-felt knowing of God let him ask something like - If God Loves us, and is omnipotent, how could/would God determine that any being suffering endlessly would/could serve Loves purpose?
Even with the imposed threat of his eternal damnation looming over his head, his spirit could not accept this distortion of Gods Love
He was taught that even to question the teachings, or consider another perspective was a sin. He had to swallow and believe everything he was told, no questions. This type of "fear-control" of a persons free thought and freedom to consider and evaluate other options is a very destructive, controlling, and blatant misuse of mind control and manipulation.
Even with no one else to back him up and no other alternative idea to comfort him, he knew, if only through its absence that there was another way. So he set out into the emptiness of total blind faith, alone, with no map, and no cane, only the pure faith and knowing that God is Love, to find the description or view of God that gave the true picture of a loving God.
I'm sure if you ask him he will tell you something like " he had no faith or knowing that God was Love at all, and that he had a nervous breakdown, and could only hope there was a better way".
But his inability to accept that a loving God would let any being suffer forever shows me that even though he had no words to describe what he felt, he knew this was not the way of Love or a loving God. Nervous Breakdown, whatever, call it what you will. I think it was the true loving God taking hold of him in the only language he had been taught, fear. I think it said to him in a voice he only could hear inside himself, something like:
"This that you call a nervous breakdown, is my loving hands stopping you from a life lived in fear.
Those that you love will damn you, as those that I loved betrayed me. But they do not know me as you do, they think I am a cruel God, but even though you have no words to protest your heart knows me and knows that I am a God of Love.
You may not understand what I am doing in your mind, or know that this fear is my hands loving you, because I talk to you with the grip of fear, and deep inside you know I am love. But, know in your soul where you have not words for it, that when this fear passes you will be free to live in the knowing of my Love.
Know that none will need to suffer forever, or even for a moment more than must be. Those who damn you are damning themselves to a life lived in fear, for they choose to believe that their God would allow a being to suffer eternal extreme cruelty with nothing good ever coming from it. In their minds they live in a world which is ruled by a cruel God.
When they are drawing their final breaths they may still believe they are being delivered into such cruel hands. They will not live in the peace knowing of my unconditional Love until they accept that none will be lost, none will be left behind.
I am assisting you through this temporary fear for it stops you from swallowing the poison of accepting that I am a cruel God. Here I set you free. I set free to find the way of my love which is unconditional, and if one loves without condition, none can be turned away."
Rodger's experience was of terror, immobilizing, paralyzing. He did not have the comfort of realizing what was said to him at the time. But he went on anyway, and searched as in the dark for people with other answers, as one would search for needles in a haystack. The people-needles would help him burst the bubbles of illusion and fear people had blown into his brain. In time he found these people amongst the billions that live on this earth and from each he took and preserved each little needle they gave and from them he fashioned a sword of truth, a sword of Love and Light that he would use to cut away the bonds of control, fear and guilt from others, and let them see the Love of God.
Someone had to make the sword, and working metal is a hot and tiresome job. The sword had to be very strong. Much time was needed to be put into its making. Its strength had to be of the highest integrity, so many tests were put upon it.
Rodger Tutt was commissioned by God to make this sword. He is his own testament to himself that everything will be better that it happened. For if he did not go through what he did he would never have known how the sword must be made or had the persistence to see its completion.
His spirit is the essence of the sword.
The words of his book, the actions of his life, his thoughts and speech, make up the blade.
When I was growing up I remember hearing the forging of that sword. For many hours of many days, behind the door of his sword making shop that he called his room, I heard him forming its shape and perfecting the details on the forge he called his typewriter. I hear he still sits sharpening his sword.
He is generous in letting others use it.
I'm sure he will share the sword with you if you ask.
The proud son of a spiritual warrior called Rodger Tutt.
Steve P. Tutt
(HE HAS COMPILED AN EXTENSIVE LIST OF LITERATURE THAT SUPPORTS HIS VIEWS)
Awesome Rodger! Thanks for sharing. What a tribute. I am sure it warmed your heart even way more than it did mine and that's saying a lot. :HeartThrob:
Beautiful :o)
Quote from: Colleen on May 31, 2013, 06:14:41 PM
Awesome Rodger! Thanks for sharing. What a tribute. I am sure it warmed your heart even way more than it did mine and that's saying a lot. :HeartThrob:
Yes it still does warm my heart Colleen.
It makes me cry with joy each time I read it.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #55
REGARDING THE SET OF EIGHT 90 MINUTE TAPES BY JAMES CORAM CALLED
"HUMAN CHOICE AND THE DEITY OF GOD" #240-#247
These can be obtained online HERE
http://www.concordant.org/recorded/index.html
About these tapes Rodger Tutt says, "I have listened to this set of tapes many times. I would rather have knowledge of the contents of these tapes than have millions of dollars.
These tapes will help you "unlearn" all the indoctrination that prevents you from embracing the truth of universal transformation."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #56
YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID – Kenneth Larsen
"You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt. 5:43-48.
You have heard that it was said, "God hates those people so much He's going to torment them in the flames."
But God says, "To no one render evil for evil; rather, conquer evil with good. In doing this, you will be heaping embers of fire on his head." Ro. 12:17-21.
You have heard that it was said, "God offers salvation to all mankind, but only saves those who believe before they die."
But God says, "I AM the living God, the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." 1 Timothy 4:10, 11.
You have heard that it was said, "Some people are impossible to save; their stubborn will is just too strong!"
But God says, "With Me nothing is impossible; no one is stronger than Me!" Matt. 19:25, 26; 1 Cor. 10:22.
You have heard that it was said, "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
But God says, "Through Christ I will reconcile all to Myself (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." Colossians 1:20, 21.
You have heard that it was said, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, all those who are in Christ shall be vivified."
But God says, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22.
You have heard that it was said, "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
But God says, "No one is seeking Me. All avoid Me. Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of My mercy." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
You have heard that it was said, "The second death will be eternal; there's no escaping the lake of fire."
But God says, "The last enemy is being abolished: death." 1 Corinthians 15:26.
You have heard that it was said, "When God doesn't give the person the chance to hear the Gospel, it's because He knows they would have rejected it anyway."
But God says, "My saving grace makes its advent to all humanity. Jesus enlightens every soul who enters the world, and He will draw all to Himself." Titus 2:11; Jn. 1:9; 12:32.
You have heard that it was said, "The subjection of all to Christ will, in many cases, involve compulsion, rather than the reception of a body of glory."
But God says, "Christ will transfigure the body of humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself. Every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, by Holy Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:3; Phil. 2:9-11; 3:21.
You have heard that it was said, "All mankind is condemned in Adam, but only some of them will receive justification in Christ."
But God says, "Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." Romans 5:18, 19.
You have heard that it was said, "God wills all mankind be saved, but that's really just wishful thinking."
But God says, "The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, annulling the acts of the Adversary! My will is to save all, and I operate all in accord with the counsel of My will." John 1:29; 1 Jn. 3:8; 1 Tim. 2:1-6; Eph. 1:11.
You have heard that it was said, "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
But God says, "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #57
INFANT SALVATION
Believers in "eternal torment" are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few," also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin wrote, "There are babies a span long in hell".
Others (Arminians) consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact, if Arminians are right, is that her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Apparently they believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to Arminian theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong (Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the baby's eternal salvation. If Arminians are right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of Arminians ) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Besides, Christians kill others in war for less worthy causes than preventing others from suffering forever.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?!" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 100 year old Dad often said, "That's what makes Him God!"
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do Arminian Christians get so upset with them?!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #61
Consequences
I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love or respect an endless - hell god. My breakdown was caused by my fear of what God might do to me since I was unable to love or respect Him.
One of the great comforts that helped me to recover was learning that many other people have suffered with the same problem. The following quote is from THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
Note that the victims of this theology found no consolation in the Christian gospel. This was my problem too! The question I kept asking myself was, "How can I find comfort in the Christian Gospel when I can't even love or respect its God?"
In my library, I have several dozens of books, most of which I have read, and several hundred cassettes, by 29 different speakers, all of which I have listened to, some of them many times, by men who believe that the Bible (correctly translated) teaches universal transformation; that is, that God will eventually change all suffering into something better that it happened. These books and tapes answer, many times over, the arguments that I have read in seven, (plus parts of other) books in support of the idea that the Bible teaches never ending suffering for part of God's creation.
In addition to these sources, Hurley Books, Westmoreland, New Hampshire, lists 463 universalist books that can be purchased from them. It will be a comfort to many, as it was to me, to learn that there are so many people who see this kind of God in the Bible.
It is my great joy in life to make this information available to many people. God will use all my efforts as He sees fit. In this great truth I relax!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #62
Good News
Many people are unable to believe on a Lord Jesus Christ who would allow anyone to want to, or have to suffer endlessly in hell. Because they cannot love or respect such a Christ, they are unable to put their trust in Him in a way that produces assurance of salvation. For these people, the following information will be good news:
GOD IS NOT GOING TO ALLOW ANYONE TO WANT TO, OR HAVE TO SUFFER FOREVER!
Some versions of the Bible have been mistranslated. The Greek noun "aion" means "age", not eternal. And the Greek adjective "aionios" means "of the ages", not forever or everlasting. The Greek text clearly teaches that the ages were made by God for a purpose. Ephesians 3:11 ("eternal purpose" should read "purpose of the ages"). They had a beginning, 11Tim 1:9 ("before the world began" should read "before times eonian"). And collectively, they will have an ending, Hebrews 9:26 ("in the end of the world" should read "at the conclusion of the eons"). The context of a verse doesn't necessitate the use of the word "eternal." Even when referring to the attributes of God, the use of the word "eonian" doesn't mean that His attributes will change at the end of the ages. But at that point in time He will cease to be the "eonian God." He will no longer need to manifest mercy, longsuffering, or forgiveness, for His "eonian purpose" will have been completed and God will be "All In All" 1 Corinthians 15:28.
The phrase "forever and ever" is a mistranslation. In the Greek, the phrase sometimes reads "for the age of the ages" which refers to the last age, probably the one following the millennial age. It could appropriately be called "the age of consummation." In other verses, the phrase reads "for the ages of the ages" which probably refers to the millennial age and the age of consummation together. In the same way that "King of kings" and "Lord of lords": separate one from others, so does the phrase "age of ages." And in the same way that *"holies of the holies" would separate the holy place and the most holy place from the rest of the tabernacle, so does the phrase "the ages of the ages" separate the last two ages from the previous ones. The Sinaitic manuscript actually says "holies of Holies" instead of "Holy Places".
The true, Biblical teaching about the ages has been obscured through faulty translating. The translators introduced their own ideas into the text instead of using the proper English equivalents, "eon" and "eonian."
Not until the sixth century, did the belief in endless hell become prevalent within the Christian church. It is true that modern Greeks use "the ages of the ages" to denote an endless succession of ages, but this is due to the influence of the Greek Orthodox Church. That this expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of ages is established beyond doubt by comparing Revelation 11:14,15 with 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. In Revelation 11, Christ is said to reign "for the eons of the eons." In 1 Corinthians 15, the reign of Christ is said to end. Therefore, if He reigns for the eons of the eons and His reign ends, the eons of the eons cannot be endless. Furthermore, Hebrews 9:26 says that the eons, collectively, end, so regardless of their number, they will collectively end.
To be sure there will be judgment. Wrongs will be righted. To those who have sinned much it will mean much indignation and fury, affliction and distress, Romans 2:8-9. But God corrects and disciplines only for good. Even hardened sinners who have often cursed Him, will be thankful for the strokes that bring them back to God. Each one gets only what is good for them in the judgment, not to damn them forever, but to prepare them for God's salvation. If necessary, God will use a negative manifestation of His love, but negative or positive, He will keep loving, and keep loving until He has elicited a loving response from everyone.
Yers, if anything, the news of hellfire and eternal damnation for 80-90% of all mankind is very, very bad news.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #63
DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."
RESPONSES:
Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.
Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.
Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.
"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.
If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.
I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"
If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"
If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.
My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is
similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.
James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html
See article above on this point also, for the likeness/parallel I
draw between, on the one hand, slavery, and on the other, death.
Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross. With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #64
THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely
As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.
As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based. But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.
When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.
When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #65
Love's Goal
All that love is, God is, for God is love. As the negative side of love is unselfish - seeketh not her own - so her positive side is concern for others, a deep, ardent, all consuming concern: dauntless, self-sacrificing, invincible. "Love never faileth." Such is the divine essence and this it is that is imparted to the creature.
There can be no self-complacency with God, neither could He provide a self-satisfied salvation. Divine joy is in the fullness of love, and love is all-embracing. To speak of a happy shepherd with an incomplete flock, or even of a happy flock with comrades missing, would be to malign both sheep and shepherd.
Heaven's joys will be full only when sin's sorrow cease. "Tis of mine" will be the yearning cry of the Good Shepherd spirit in the bosom of both saint and Saviour until the last of all the lost has been gathered home. Love cannot omit; His soul travail was for all. Neither can love abandon or forget. His purpose, as His promise, is "until He find it". Thus it is that He is yet to "see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." And surely we too shall be satisfied when conformed to this likeness. Oh, the fullness of heaven's joy when sin's sorrows shall have ceased!
D. Buchanan
Amen :thumbsup:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #66
WHY?
Why did God make the universe, the earth and sky above?
Scripture gives the answer when it says that "God is Love".
Before God made the universe He worked out a master plan.
He knew how everything would end before it all began.
He made mankind so He could have an object for His love,
But man was blind and did not see that it came from above.
So God created evil as He had created night,
So man could see the good in Him - In darkness we see light.
He made the "blackboard" very black, with evil, sin, and woe.
He made an adversary to be His cunning foe.
He made the earth to be a "stage" to show the hosts above,
By all of our experiences, His wisdom and His love.
He locks up all in stubbornness to make His mercy clear;
Lets Satan lure all men away so He can draw all near.
He gives His only firstborn Son to die and save us all.
Yet each in his own class we read; we're blind until our call.
You ask me why God made the earth, the glittering stars above?
The Scriptures give the answer when they say that 'God is love".
Ray Prinzing
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 19, 2013, 04:17:14 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #66
WHY?
Why did God make the universe, the earth and sky above?
Scripture gives the answer when it says that "God is Love".
Before God made the universe He worked out a master plan.
He knew how everything would end before it all began.
He made mankind so He could have an object for His love,
But man was blind and did not see that it came from above.
So God created evil as He had created night,
So man could see the good in Him - In darkness we see light.
He made the "blackboard" very black, with evil, sin, and woe.
He made an adversary to be His cunning foe.
He made the earth to be a "stage" to show the hosts above,
By all of our experiences, His wisdom and His love.
He locks up all in stubbornness to make His mercy clear;
Lets Satan lure all men away so He can draw all near.
He gives His only firstborn Son to die and save us all.
Yet each in his own class we read; we're blind until our call.
You ask me why God made the earth, the glittering stars above?
The Scriptures give the answer when they say that 'God is love".
Ray Prinzing
This is awesome! Very timely for me. Thanks!
Quote from: jabcat on June 19, 2013, 08:33:22 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 19, 2013, 04:17:14 PM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #66
WHY?
Why did God make the universe, the earth and sky above?
Scripture gives the answer when it says that "God is Love".
Before God made the universe He worked out a master plan.
He knew how everything would end before it all began.
He made mankind so He could have an object for His love,
But man was blind and did not see that it came from above.
So God created evil as He had created night,
So man could see the good in Him - In darkness we see light.
He made the "blackboard" very black, with evil, sin, and woe.
He made an adversary to be His cunning foe.
He made the earth to be a "stage" to show the hosts above,
By all of our experiences, His wisdom and His love.
He locks up all in stubbornness to make His mercy clear;
Lets Satan lure all men away so He can draw all near.
He gives His only firstborn Son to die and save us all.
Yet each in his own class we read; we're blind until our call.
You ask me why God made the earth, the glittering stars above?
The Scriptures give the answer when they say that 'God is love".
Ray Prinzing
This is awesome! Very timely for me. Thanks!
You are most welcome jabcat! :thumbsup:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #67
THE PLAN OF THE MASTER WEAVER
Our lives are but fine weavings
That God and we prepare,
Each life becomes a fabric planned
And fashioned in His care.
We may not always see just how
The weavings intertwine,
But we must trust the Master's hand
And follow His design,
For He can view the pattern
Upon the upper side,
While we must look from underneath
And trust in Him to guide...
Sometimes a strand of sorrow
Is added to His plan,
And though it's difficult for us,
We still must understand
That it's He who fills the shuttle,
It's He who knows what's best,
So we must weave in patience
And leave to Him the rest...
Not till the loom is silent
And the shuttles cease to fly
Shall God unroll the canvas
And explain the reason why ---
The dark threads are as needed
In the Weaver's skillful hand
As the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He has planned.
---Author Unknown
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #68
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #69
A Message Of Comfort
Let Nothing be Worrying You!
William Mealand
"Let nothing be worrying you, but in every prayer and petition let your requests be made known to God with thanksgiving, and the peace of God, being superior to every frame of mind, shall garrison your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus" Phil 4:6-7.
There is an elixir of life in words like these. Touching life at all points, they embrace every experience, and affect every problem. How positive they are, how emphatic! There is no room left for the smallest doubt to intrude. The words are just an exquisite echo of the Psalmist's thought - fret not thyself!
How complete, how inclusive the injunction is! Let nothing be worrying you. Not a single thing. But can we realize it? Is it possible to live up to such a counsel of perfection? A thousand times, yes! And for the great reason that this rare paragraph enshrines a God given assurance. There is a promise, a pledge of a superior peace - the peace of God, His perfect provision for the keeping, the steadying of our hearts in Christ Jesus.
What an expression of God's solicitude! And for each of us to make true in the circumstances of life. How true, rests with the quality of our reliance upon God. In how far we leave things to Him, for His working out. And His appointment is never a disappointment. Therefore, on no account are we to worry. It does no good, changes nothing, nor ever gives us back the thing we prized. It enfeebles and wastes our strength, keeps the brain excited, the blood feverish, and the heart beating wildly.
If, then, we must not worry, and there are things in life calculated to make us anxious, how may we displace worry? By taking God into our confidence as we voice immediate needs. "Let your requests be made known to God, with thanksgiving." Note the proviso - with thanksgiving, which in itself affects the burdened mind. Indeed, thankfulness for the simple things of life, the ordinary, forgettable things, means much.
The tragic indictment of the ancient world was that, "knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him." Stars in the heaven are thanked, the saints in the calendar, but not God. So many occasions call for it, and a voiced acknowledgment deepens our consciousness of His daily care.
No aspect or department of life is outside the interest of God, our Father. He is at all times an interested Listener. Our requests, therefore, may be unreservedly made known. Let them flow forth, without any concern as to how they will be met. That rests with God's will and wisdom. Seeing all the intricacies of life, He appoints in accord with them. Has He not ordered them, both good and ill?
There are some things in life God would not have us change! And happy are we, if, in the acceptance of them, we see the Father's own rare ordering. Let us so live, in the spirit of a line from a hymn: "I do not ask to see the distant scene, one step enough for me." It suffices that we make our requests known to God, and leave them with Him. This done, with thanksgiving, there will come to heart and mind, God's own wonderful peace.
"And the peace of God, being superior to every frame of mind, shall garrison your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus." Here, in a peace which surpasses all power of thought, lies the strength and joy of Paul's counsel of perfection. It is the peace of God, in contrast with, and superior to, all human counsel, palliative, or panacea.
Gift of the God of peace, it is the only calm in a world of unrest. But oh, how this peace differs from that which the world offers! WE see the word used all around us. Yet how little it conveys, how far short it falls, of all that such a word should stand for! Does it not look lost, as a wandering star from it's orbit?
Only as linked with God and His ministering grace does the word hold real comfort and consolation. In such union it has vital power, confirming its frequent and heartening occurrence in the calm of a rich content. The peace of God. Grace and peace. Yes, yes. In spite of all around us, and the tangle of daily events, For our hearts shall be as a citadel, gloriously kept. "The Lord is thy Keeper."
What a glad secret of life! One that Christ Himself exemplified. He did not worry or fret impatiently. He trusted, He rested supremely in God. He gave Himself completely over to God. He prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup be passing by from Me. Moreover, not as I will, but as Thou!" A second time He prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass by from me except I should be drinking it, let Thy will be done!" Matt. 26:39,42.
How sublime an example of utter submission to God's will! There has been but One, and there will never be another so altogether acquiescent to the Father's will. The purpose, will, and majesty of God, the Father, was everything to Him. How much so we have yet to see. In the meanwhile, let us hold by this superior peace. It is resident in Him. He is our peace, and He is on the throne, even the throne of the universe.
Therefore, "let nothing be worrying you." Rather, "let your requests be made known to God, with thanksgiving." In these two statements we have first a prohibition, then an injunction. Is it not that prayer should be the death of care? It follows, however, that the source or cause of worry should not be self-made. It should be that imposed on us, and not something fashioned by ourselves which we persist in carrying. This we must throw away. Life, to be happily lived, must have in all its aspects, a felt consciousness of God. At all times there should be a sense of God's ruling. For, not only is God operating the universe in accord with the counsel of His will, but Christ is carrying it on by His powerful declaration. What control is here, and how complete! Just to feel that we are entirely in God's hands, flung upon His care and control, is to know a peace inviolate. What small resemblance to the faith of Christ our faltering trust displays! Self looms so large with us, and hence disquietude. Not so with our Lord. He displayed the dignity of complete assurance. Rejecting His disquietude, He puts in its place the thought of the majesty and power of God the Father.
Let us learn of Him to quietly accept our Father's will. Let us be disposed to that which is above, where Christ is, enthroned at God's right hand. Then we shall know the peace of God, and how superior it is to every frame of mind. And the God of peace shall be with you, in every moment, every hour.
"Drop They still dews of quietness,
Till all our strivings cease:
Take from our souls the strain and stress,
And let our ordered lives confess
The beauty of Thy peace."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #70
THE BLACKEST OF ALL BACKGROUNDS
As some of you know, I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 74 now) over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever.
By listening to many audio tapes by Ray Prinzing over that period of time, I was able to gradually recover. All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several Google pages of links about him.
Millions of Muslims believe that non Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell.
Quote from
Islamic Beliefs about the Afterlife
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beli ... erlife.htm
And, as most people already know, millions of Christians believe that non-Christians are going to suffer forever in hell.
The way that I emotionally cope with (i.e. stop myself from going crazy again) because of the existence of ETers (i.e. believers in eternal torment), is to perceive ETers as God's vessels of grossest dishonour -- a necessary foil of contrast in the guise of truth – a part of the blackest of backgrounds, upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that cannot fail, and His grace that can never be defeated.
The marred vessels (i.e. ETers), never leave the Potter's hands, (they are marred in the Potter's hands), and neither will anyone leave the Potters hands. After our resurrection from the dead, all ETers will be refashioned, and transformed into vessels of honour, and it will be plain for all to see that it was better that ETers were vessels of dishonour for a long as they were (Jeremiah chapter 18).
One of the dishonourable characteristics of some ETers is that they have no desire whatsoever to check out the reasons why URs (i.e. universal reconciliationists) believe that a literally translated, (not interpretively) translated Bible, actually teaches universal salvation.
But it may be that a silent member, or surfer, or lurker on this forum might be motivated enough to check us out and decide if the conclusions of URs have any merit.
amen, it is a wide house.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 12, 2013, 08:34:38 AM
amen, it is a wide house.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :iagree: and such a beautiful one!
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism;
I now think entirely differently.
It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard.
There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard.
I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor
as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it,
and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it."
-Abraham Lincoln
http://scuniversalist.blogspot.com/2009/02/abraham-lincoln-universalist.html
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said,
"The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend."
God always does things "the best way."
GOD'S "CONVERSION" – Kenneth Larsen
God's "Conversion" : A mythological saga of our Heavenly Father's change of character, as told by theologians, ancient and modern.
In Adam, all are dying, for the creation was subjected to vanity. 1Cor. 15:22; Ro. 8:20. It was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation. Ro. 5:18. We were all constituted sinners through the disobedience of one man. Ro. 5:19. This collective perdition came through no choice of ours as individuals, but is our inheritance, our fate.
Nevertheless, so the story goes, there came a time when God, wanting to conform His doings to the highest ethical standards, set Himself upon a radically different course. Henceforth, He would not act arbitrarily, but only in accordance with the rights and sovereign choices of the individual; from then on He was to obtain permission from His creature before acting on his or her behalf. In contrast to the collective loss, salvation was to be an individual matter, and subject to obtaining cooperation from His subjects. No more "spiritual collectivism"; now God had enthusiastically embraced the "spiritual free market". Our Heavenly Father was now, henceforth and officially, a "Gentleman", and would no longer force anything upon anyone; He would subject His will that all mankind be saved to the whims of the very creation He had formerly confined under collective condemnation. 1 Tim. 2:1-6. The "plan of salvation" would consist of Christ offering salvation to all, and then being satisfied with whatever percentage He could manage to save. Isaiah 53. He would be honorifically titled "the Savior of all mankind", but that would really amount to nothing more than wishful thinking, for He would especially (that is, only, as the story goes) save those who believe during this life. 1 Tim. 4:9-11.
Did God truly change His dealings with mankind? Does He really change?
Of course not! Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12; 13:8; Jn. 14:9; 10:30. "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22. "Even as... thus also..."- In similar fashion to the collective death, is the collective life! Romans 5:15- "But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds." Who are the many who died because of Adam's offense? All mankind. And so, much rather, God's gratuity in grace, through Christ's perfect life and obedience to the death of the cross, SUPERABOUNDS to the many- all mankind! Does the salvation of some of those lost suggest a superabundance of grace? No! Does a collective, obligatory condemnation to sin and death, coupled with an individual, optional justification of life constitute a superabundance of grace? Not by a long shot! God subjected the creation to vanity in HOPE! Ro. 8:20. Did He hope that the entrance of sin would cause even one to be permanently lost? Of course not! Lk. 15:3-32.
Ro. 5:18, 19- "Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." As it was through Adam (a collective condemnation), THUS ALSO it will be through Christ (a collective justification of life)! God promises a universal reconciliation. Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:5-11. He will draw all creation to Himself, using whatever loving means He has at His disposal, including judgments. Jn. 12:32; 1:9-13; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; Lk. 12:45-49. Our Heavenly Father will confer faith and repentance upon all, at the time He chooses. 2 Pt.3:9; Acts 5:31; 11:18; 17:31; 2 Tim. 2:25. Obviously, our stubborn will must be subdued, but take heart, for "Not stronger that He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22; Is. 45:22, 23. Our unchanging God will be All in all! 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
EDITOR'S NOTE
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 18, 2013, 03:27:56 PM
EDITOR'S NOTE
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
I had always wondered by Paul said "the many" instead of "all." I had never heard this explanation before but it makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you very much for sharing.
Quote from: Graph1159 on July 20, 2013, 04:11:08 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 18, 2013, 03:27:56 PM
EDITOR'S NOTE
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
I had always wondered by Paul said "the many" instead of "all." I had never heard this explanation before but it makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you very much for sharing.
You are very welcome Graph!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #71
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief in universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3213148682308877255#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ABOUT THE AUTHOR - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/AboutAuthor.html
#301 - A snippet from Universalism the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian
Church During its First Five Hundred Years, by J. W. Hanson, 1899:
(Origen Adamantius)
"This greatest of all Christian apologists and exegetes was a distinctive Universalist. He could not have misunderstood or misinterpreted the teachings of his Master. The language of the New Testament was his mother tongue. He derived the teachings of Christ from Christ himself in a direct line through his teacher Clement; and he placed the defense of Christianity on Universalist grounds.
When Celsus, in his "True Discourse", the first great assault on Christianity, objected to Christianity on the ground that it taught punishment by fire, Origen replied that the threatened fire possessed a disciplinary, purifying quality that will consume in the sinner whatever evil material it can find to consume....God will act the part....Origen says, "not like a cook but like a God who is a benefactor of those who stand in need of discipline of fire.""
#302 - A snippet from Whatever Became of Melanie? (2005), pages 138-139, by
Allan Ernest Chevrier:
(Romans 5:18-21)
"Now what was the result of Adam's transgression? It was universal condemnation of all, without first consulting them or asking for their contribution. The result of Adam's disobedience was complete and universal in its scope and consequence, plunging each and every member of his race into sin and spiritual separation from God.
Now, just as Adam's sin had a direct, powerful, irresistible effect on the whole for evil, so the righteous act of Christ has a direct, powerful, irresistible effect on the whole for good. Just as one sin resulted in universal, real, actual condemnation, so the one act of righteousness performed by Christ, the second Adam, results in universal, real, actual justification, not just an opportunity to cast your lot in with Jesus, not just the offer of life, but the real, actual, powerful impartation of life! The real actual, powerful communication of righteousness! The plain language of the text allows for nothing less!"
Thank is just beautiful! :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 24, 2013, 05:55:25 PM
Thanks, that is just beautiful! :dsunny:
You are very welcome micah. :thumbsup:
#303 - THE MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD – Gary Siglar
The message for the world today is only one --- that God has reconciled you back to Himself. He didn't just redeem a few. He didn't just forgive a few. He didn't determine that a few would be saved and the rest would be eternally lost. God has a plan that is so perfect and worked out to restore all of mankind back to their source.
If you understand that no matter where you are today God chose you, before the foundation of the world, that you would be holy and without blame before Him in love. If you can believe this simple word you will rejoice.
I know the condition of carnal humanity. I know the condition of some people who love God. I know the carnal condition that most of us are in. The truth is --- and the truth will set you free --- you are holy, unblameable, and irreprovable in His sight. Not in your carnal adamic life, but in Christ. Christ is holy, unblemished, and undefiled. If you can accept that you will be that experientially. If you can't accept that you won't yet experience it but you still will eventually as God brings you into the knowledge of your true identity.
#304 - A snippet from The Inescapable Love of God, Pages 59, 60, by Thomas Talbott:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32).
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15:22).
In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first "all" seems to determine the scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserts in Romans 5:18 that Christ's one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all, he evidently has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation; when he insists in Romans 11:32 that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in, disobedience; and finally, when he asserts in I Corinthians 15:22 that "all shall be made alive" in Christ, he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam. The grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it only if you are prepared to reject what is right before your eyes."
Does "All" mean "All"?
http://hopebeyondhell.org/
#305 - "Hippolytus (about A.D. 220) enumerates and comments on thirty-two heresies, but universal restoration is not named among them. And yet, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen- then living- were everywhere regarded as the great teachers of the church, and their view of man's future destiny was generally prevalent, according to Augustine, Jerome and others. It could not then have been regarded as a "heresy" or Hippolytus would have named it. What a force there is in fact that not one of those who wrote against the heresies of their times ever named universal salvation as one of them! Hippolytus mentions thirty-two. Epiphanius wrote his Panarion and epitomizes it in his nacephal'osis or Recapitulation, but not one of the heresy-hunters includes our faith in his maledictions. Could there be stronger evidence than this fact that the doctrine was not then heretical?"
A snippet from
Universalism the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During
its First Five Hundred Years, by J. W. Hanson, 1899
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
#306 - From http://www.truth.info/future/universalism.htm
The subjection of all to Christ
What does God mean when He states that Christ can subject all to Himself? Philippians 3:21 tells us that this will be in accord with the transfiguration of the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory. This is further explained in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44: "Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body." Verse 28: "Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."
So not only is Christ able to subject all to Himself; He WILL subject all to Himself. Once all are subjected to Christ, Christ will subject Himself to God, that God may be all in all. This is when Christ will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father- verse 24. Verses 25-27 show the intimate relationship between the subjection of all to Christ, and the abolishment of death. In verse 22 we are informed that the "all" encompasses the entirety of mankind. This is in perfect harmony with Phil. 3:21.
To further elucidate the theme, Paul gives us the revelation of Romans 5:18, 19. Being constituted just (immortality/ vivification) is contrasted with being constituted sinners (the body of our humiliation). Just as all mankind were condemned through Adam's act, all mankind are justified through Christ's sacrifice. This is an essential and unavoidable part of Christ's achievement, "...For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8. Never doubt that Christ and God are able to overcome Adam and Satan. Death will be abolished in practice; it already has been in principle. The realization of this achievement is accomplished in phases, for there are three classes in view in 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
If my post is placed here is in error, please correct me, my thought exploded when I read Bro. Tutt.
What is really amazing and unbelieveable to me is all this information has been and is out there in print and still theology and the scholars of same will not touch it. I know that it is the Lord's purpose for what seems to be disdained by teachers in the clergy, that the Creator will save all of His creation, but that truth is so embraced by the inspired writer's of the Bible, its just hard, for me, to phantom this truth erased and deleted from teaching, yet the wrath of God is ministered to cause fear of the Creator, rather than offering the awe of the Father's Love.
#307 - A snippet from The Outcome of Infinite Grace
Death Swallowed Up in Victory
By Dr. Loyal Hurley:
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8,9). Why do these verses follow immediately the statement, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"?
And why do these verses begin with the word "for"? The word "for" shows a relationship between what precedes and what follows. In the ages to come, He will demonstrate His grace, for He has already shown it to us, His church, whom He will use as the demonstration.
No member of the church deserves to be saved by grace. Not one thing can we claim that has any merit in it. Some will say that at least our faith is our own. "For by grace are ye saved through faith"—and surely the faith is ours. But Paul will not have it so, for he adds, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Yes, God gives to us our faith, "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3). And He gives it to us through "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). Not only does He give us grace: He gives us the faith to receive it. Otherwise we would still be in stubbornness or unbelief. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom.11:32).
So God chooses a few undeserving sinners in this age through whom He will demonstrate His grace to other undeserving sinners, "in the ages to come." And the demonstration will be convincing, too. It will accomplish what God intends that it shall accomplish: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph.1:10)."
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 13, 2013, 03:09:28 PM
#307 - A snippet from The Outcome of Infinite Grace
Death Swallowed Up in Victory
By Dr. Loyal Hurley:
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8,9). Why do these verses follow immediately the statement, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"?
And why do these verses begin with the word "for"? The word "for" shows a relationship between what precedes and what follows. In the ages to come, He will demonstrate His grace, for He has already shown it to us, His church, whom He will use as the demonstration.
No member of the church deserves to be saved by grace. Not one thing can we claim that has any merit in it. Some will say that at least our faith is our own. "For by grace are ye saved through faith"—and surely the faith is ours. But Paul will not have it so, for he adds, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Yes, God gives to us our faith, "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3). And He gives it to us through "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). Not only does He give us grace: He gives us the faith to receive it. Otherwise we would still be in stubbornness or unbelief. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom.11:32).
So God chooses a few undeserving sinners in this age through whom He will demonstrate His grace to other undeserving sinners, "in the ages to come." And the demonstration will be convincing, too. It will accomplish what God intends that it shall accomplish: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph.1:10)."
Oh Roger, thank you so much. This was the first thing I read on the Internet this morning... I've been praising God for the mighty work He has done in my life (a miracle of grace) and this is such a glorious reminder that there are others that know and have experienced the joy of being a forgiven sinner. All glory and honor be unto the King! May His peace, joy, grace, mercy, life, light shine in our hearts and minds.
Quote from: anna274 on August 13, 2013, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 13, 2013, 03:09:28 PM
#307 - A snippet from The Outcome of Infinite Grace
Death Swallowed Up in Victory
By Dr. Loyal Hurley:
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8,9). Why do these verses follow immediately the statement, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"?
And why do these verses begin with the word "for"? The word "for" shows a relationship between what precedes and what follows. In the ages to come, He will demonstrate His grace, for He has already shown it to us, His church, whom He will use as the demonstration.
No member of the church deserves to be saved by grace. Not one thing can we claim that has any merit in it. Some will say that at least our faith is our own. "For by grace are ye saved through faith"—and surely the faith is ours. But Paul will not have it so, for he adds, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Yes, God gives to us our faith, "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3). And He gives it to us through "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). Not only does He give us grace: He gives us the faith to receive it. Otherwise we would still be in stubbornness or unbelief. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom.11:32).
So God chooses a few undeserving sinners in this age through whom He will demonstrate His grace to other undeserving sinners, "in the ages to come." And the demonstration will be convincing, too. It will accomplish what God intends that it shall accomplish: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph.1:10)."
Oh Rodger, thank you so much. This was the first thing I read on the Internet this morning... I've been praising God for the mighty work He has done in my life (a miracle of grace) and this is such a glorious reminder that there are others that know and have experienced the joy of being a forgiven sinner. All glory and honor be unto the King! May His peace, joy, grace, mercy, life, light shine in our hearts and minds.
I'm glad it was a bessing anna.
Here is a thoughtful exhortation by UR John Hanson.
#308 - THE NATURE, THE CHARACTER OF CHRISTIAN PRAYER - JOHN WESLEY HANSON
Every human being is under perpetual obligation to pray to God as the Father of all souls, to bring in His kingdom, fulfill His will and deliver from evil, and save from sin the whole human family; and that we are commanded to pray for this,—universal salvation—is evident from the language of the Apostle Paul in I Timothy 2:1-4:
"I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and
all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty; for this is good and acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come
unto the knowledge of the truth."
Thus God desires all men to be saved, and you and I and all men are commanded therefore, to pray that all men may be saved. God does this. This prayer proceeds from the divine heart all the time. "Prayer is the soul's sincere desire uttered or unexpressed." All men must, when they follow the instincts of their nature, pray for the salvation of
all men...
But the second feature in prayer is, that men, "whatsoever they ask for of God, shall pray in faith, nothing doubting.
I Timothy 2: 8:—"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting
up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."
It is wicked to pray for anything to God, unless we pray in faith,
unless in our heart of hearts we believe our hopes will be answered. A
faithless prayer is an abomination in the sight of God; hence the
apostle says in Romans 14:23:—"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Now, then, a Christian must pray for universal salvation; if he does not, he does not offer Christian prayer; and if a man thus prays, but believes that his prayer will not be answered, then he cannot offer Christian prayer. Genuine Christian prayer comprehends the final salvation of all men, and as it is necessary to give it in full faith, nothing doubting, it demonstrates the final salvation of all, for certainly God would not command his children to pray for a thing and pray without doubting, unless in the divine plan that were to be the result. Hence Paul appeals to this ground of faith in I Timothy 2:5-6:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
#309 - In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
#310 - Does God "offer" salvation to all, and it's up to each one to either accept it or reject it?
First, of ourselves, none of us would accept it. So, we should receive the clear Bible teaching that faith is a gift. Ro. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:6-10; Phil. 1:29.
Second, we know from Ro. 9 and other verses such as Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13 and 3:2, that God does not choose to save all in this life.
Third, we know God wills all to be saved. Titus 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6.
Fourth, we know that all things are possible with God. Matt. 19:25,
26; Jeremiah 32:17.
Fifth, we know that Christ enlightens all, and draws all to Himself.
John 1:9; 12:32.
Sixth, we know God will reconcile all to Himself. 1 Cor. 15:20-28;
Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; Ro. 5:18, 19.
Therefore, seventh, we know that God grants salvation (faith,
repentance, and reconciliation) to all, for He is the Savior of all
mankind. Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Tim. 4:9-11 - Kenneth Larsen.
#311 - "Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.
This basic truth is much more forcibly revealed later on in connection with the call of the nations. We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains."
-Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
(http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC04_John.htm)
#312 - TENTMAKER MINISTRY WEBSITE ARCHIVES
INTERESTING READING THAT URS WILL ENJOY
If the link doesn't open up, click on the word "impatient"
January 15, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19980115040606/http://www.tentmaker.org/
December 1, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19981201194938/http://www.tentmaker.org/
June 10, 2000:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000610020831/http://www.tentmaker.org/
#313 - DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL – Kenneth Larson
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan inherited ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 21, 2013, 03:59:58 PM
#313 - DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL – Kenneth Larson
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan inherited ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
Amen, brother.
#314 - IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30.
God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.
Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.
Amen, brother.
Love is stronger than death. God is love. Love wins.
#315 - Questions
In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility.
#316 - By Hannah Whitall Smith
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so.
Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result;
If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
#317 - RAY PRINZING COMBO (worth repeating)
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my earthly hero and mentor)
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
#318 - The first-born and first-fruits are the "few" and "little flock;" but these, though first delivered from the curse, have a relation to the whole creation, which shall be saved in the appointed times by the first-born seed, that is by Christ and His body, through those appointed baptisms, whether of fire or water, which are required to bring about "the restitution of all things." St. Paul expressly declares this when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, ... that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in the earth, even in Him." - Rev. Andrew Jukes
James 1:18
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Praise God for His glorious grace, that we who were the first to believe should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:9-22
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Rom 8:19-23
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
We have the first-fruits of the Spirit- one day the entire creation will be filled with the Spirit. We are a kind of first-fruits of His creatures- one day the entire creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God. All made new, All His children, and He will be All in All!
Quote from: eaglesway on August 28, 2013, 07:30:06 AM
James 1:18
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Praise God for His glorious grace, that we who were the first to believe should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:9-22
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Rom 8:19-23
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
We have the first-fruits of the Spirit- one day the entire creation will be filled with the Spirit. We are a kind of first-fruits of His creatures- one day the entire creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God. All made new, All His children, and He will be All in All!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
#319 - By Walter Lanyon
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."
With this overshadowing comes the peace that passeth ALL. An osmosis - absorption - a blending; into the ONE takes place and there is no longer question and answer, problem and solution.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" becomes a reality. There is no limitation - no questioning whether the desire is good, bad, or indifferent - for from this elevation the desire is the shape of the idea sent straight from the heart of God, and is made alive by the pulsating heartbeat of the universe.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" yet are you desireless, free from wanting and ready to move into a place of substance, out of the place of things and yet in the midst of them all. You are suddenly One. There is no more you and your problem, there is only you. You pass easily through the crowd of beliefs.
The Light universal keeps shining. As it intensifies, it absorbs the shadows of human belief; nothing matters, yet, everything does. It transform the Temple-body into a tenuous substance, through which it can shine forth, - assuming any attribute of God at will. Healing is not, then, some wonder projected through human thought, but rather the enveloping of the Golden Shadow. It is a natural blending with LIFE which rules out the narrow confines of health and strength in humankind. I AM suddenly submerged in a sea of LIFE - eternal, golden, and all redolent with the LOVE of God.
For the first time, the mystical becomes the intensely practical - the only real thing you have ever known. Sight becomes a capacity to peer through the dense midnight of thought, by means of the Light which projects its Golden Shadow from the "Mind which was also in Christ Jesus" and which you realize is the mind that is also in you.
No longer will you compromise with this power and put it through a thousand and one beliefs concocted by the mind of man. Instead, you permit it to take shape and form, even as the air takes the shape automatically of any vessel, yet never congeals or becomes set in that form, but lasts only for the moment of the duration of the desire.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" - it is a carte blanche releasement of HIS Love, and it has to be received naturally and not as some special dispensation. It is as though the Golden Shadow has cleared away all obstruction between you and His Love, and you can hear, and really HEAR what is being communicated to the earth plane; now you can really know the full dimensions of His Love, and that all manifestation will take place, independent of your thought and without any effort.
As a sudden heavy rain falls upon a parched desert and is instantly absorbed, so does this descent of spirit come upon you. It instantly changes the nature of the desert and the very seeds already there begin to stir. Something is to take place - "the desert is to blossom as a rose" - because of the downpour of His Love, and because of the Recognition. You are being conditioned to a new dimension.
The Golden Shadow is the Golden Fleece which you have sought for so long and which has been guarded by the Gorgon, with her snaky locks of human devices, ways and means. Upon whomsoever this Golden Shadow rests, something - a quickening, takes place - without effort, and without any of the old ideas of healing and helping. It is entirely impersonal and natural and has nothing at all to do with human thought. Nothing can stay it, nothing can project it; it is a natural movement or urge in the mind of God passing through the temple-body (man) casting the Golden Shadow of Love and doing the things called "miraculous" by its revealing Light.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." Heaven and earth are full of thee - full, pressed down, and running over - there is not one empty vessel left, - even the borrowed ones are full. The Love of God keeps flowing until everything is satisfied. And all the while the Golden Shadow keeps revealing the intensely practical angle of it. It is not a mystical intangible thing, but something to be experienced and something to be handled with the hands and something that causes the wine of inspiration to flow through the body-temple with the rush of a pure mountain torrent. Health is absorbed into the LIFE of GOD, which knows no limitations.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." You must be ALIVE to participate in this benefit. You have to come out of the tomb of human thinking into the clean, fresh and almost fierce tides of LIFE. You have to be ALIVE in the recognition and the instant response to HIS Voice.
To human thought His word is almost unbearably stimulating, breaking its limitations. The Spirit refuses to be longer held in the narrow confines of the letter. The grandeur, the magnificence of pure Spirit leaves you speechless and bereft of all thought. "Let the earth keep silent before me and renew her strength" - the body, the temple, the earth of you is experiencing the renewing of self-revelation.
You have entered a new mansion where there are "singing masons building roofs of gold."* "Beauty, then is the destiny" ** which begins to shape itself and put to flight the FATE of human thought.
Yes, "thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desires of every living thing." Right now - stay there a moment.
"Not to desire is to have." Can you hear?
Walter Lanyon
#320 - Dr. E.W. Bullinger, (THE COMPANION BIBLE)
"We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, an all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest heart and subdue the stoutest will."
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 01, 2013, 03:02:28 PM
#320 - Dr. E.W. Bullinger, (THE COMPANION BIBLE)
"We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, an all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest heart and subdue the stoutest will."
Praise the ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD for that! :cloud9:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 01, 2013, 08:35:06 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 01, 2013, 03:02:28 PM
#320 - Dr. E.W. Bullinger, (THE COMPANION BIBLE)
"We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, an all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest heart and subdue the stoutest will."
Praise the ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD for that! :cloud9:
:thumbsup:
A snippet from THE PRESENCE – Walter Lanyon
Do you feel the' Presence and understand what it is to recognize for a moment that nothing----no, not anything -----is to be destroyed, but everything is to be fulfilled with the Love of God which only has to be recognized to change the imagination and shatter the belief that held it into its outline of ugliness?
Formerly we went out to battle with the thing called evil ----now we have reduced it to the vacuum of belief in the absence of God. No matter how rampant it may be, and how destructive in its manifestation, or how terrible in its dimensions----it is in the final analysis the absence of God, and this absence of God can only exist in the imagination, for God is omnipresent.
"I come not to destroy but to fulfill" will thrill you and relieve you of all the hateful warfare with evil that has been going on------it will bring you to a true understanding of the non-resistance of the Christ Mind within you and make you understand the height and depth and majesty of this Presence.
It is wonderful-----it is glorious------it causes the Hosannas to rise from the very centre of your being and magnify the Lord of Lords and Host of Hosts.
:cloud9:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 03, 2013, 05:45:55 AM
:cloud9:
THE MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD – Gary Siglar
The message for the world today is only one --- that God has reconciled you back to Himself. He didn't just redeem a few. He didn't just forgive a few. He didn't determine that a few would be saved and the rest would be eternally lost. God has a plan that is so perfect and worked out to restore all of mankind back to their source.
If you understand that no matter where you are today God chose you, before the foundation of the world, that you would be holy and without blame before Him in love. If you can believe this simple word you will rejoice.
I know the condition of carnal humanity. I know the condition of some people who love God. I know the carnal condition that most of us are in. The truth is --- and the truth will set you free --- you are holy, unblameable, and irreprovable in His sight. Not in your carnal adamic life, but in Christ. Christ is holy, unblemished, and undefiled. If you can accept that you will be that experientially. If you can't accept that you won't yet experience it but you still will eventually as God brings you into the knowledge of your true identity.
God has never, ever, made one human being that will fail except for a good purpose, because He works all things after the counsel of His own will. Known by God are all His works from beginning unto end.
Gary Sigler
http://sigler.org/
ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my earthly hero and mentor)
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
401
ALL IN ALL – A.E. KNOCH
"The terms translated 'forever' and 'everlasting' and 'never' are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Destruction, like salvation, is eonian. It is not the end or aim of God. God destroys nothing that He will not restore. He loses nothing that will not return to Him laden with praise and glory for Himself. Destruction is a passing process, not a finished goal. Through God it will work out the welfare of all of His creatures and the glory of our Saviour."
402
(Editor's note: Scriptures that seem to disagree with this conclusion are addressed in chapter four of his book ALL IN ALL)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
"I, for one, freely confess that, without a knowledge of the consummation, when God will reconcile all and become All in all, I could not have confidence in a deity who allowed the world to work itself into such a mess, and who can do little more for most men than to sweep them into destruction, extinction or torment.
But now, how can I distrust God? Mankind is just where He has brought it. The effect of all the present evil and distress will be salutary. God will get glory out of it, and men will be prepared by it to appreciate the gifts He has in store for them all."
403
THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
"The corrective effects of kolasis aionios last forever. But as a means to an end, it will not last any longer than is necessary to produce the end for which it exists in the first place.
When we finally weary of our own selfishness, petty jealousies, and lust for power; when we learn at last, perhaps through bitter experience, that these lead only to ruin and cannot bring enduring happiness, that nothing short of union with God and reconciliation with others will satisfy our own deepest yearnings; when we discover that the Hound of Heaven has finally closed off every alternative to such a union, we shall then, each of us, finally embrace the destiny that is ours."
404
:cloud9: Finally :o)
Roger, thank you that you always challenge me to study. I have discovered, or God has revealed to be more accurate, much through your posts.
Thank you for your faithfulness.
Quote from: Deena on September 10, 2013, 06:17:08 AM
Rodger, thank you that you always challenge me to study. I have discovered, or God has revealed to be more accurate, much through your posts.
Thank you for your faithfulness.
My pleasure Deena!
A SNIPPET FROM A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
"We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called supreme goodness.
In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.
We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God's creatures miserable; and this is called badness.
Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures? No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close."
405
#406 - A SNIPPET FROM SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
"By insisting on an interpreted translation of a Greek word, would you have the vast majority of men damned to an everlasting torture in order that you may feel quite sure that your timid soul will sit and sing itself away in everlasting bliss?
The main object of this book is to encourage those who faintly trust "the larger hope" to commit themselves to it wholly and fearlessly by showing them that they have ample warrant for it in scriptures of the New Testament."
I thank you Rodger that you never get involved in our petty squabbles and arguments, Never forcing your opinions or trying to make us see things "your" way. You just beautifully lay it out there and we can take it in or reject it, No matter, There'll be another thought provoking snippett tomorrow. :dsunny:
#407 - GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Sinners do not go away into everlasting punishment. They go into eonian correction. Thank God for the Concordant literal translation, which some in their blindness are condemning. When leaders in the church today condemn something I would be the first one to rush out and get it and examine it for myself. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth. It has never been that way and it is not now.
The unscriptural tradition assigning a limit beyond which Christ has no power to save the obstinate sinner has spread universally. It is worldwide. It claims that the will of man can successfully oppose the power and will of God. "God wills all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4). Let us follow our Lord in His denunciation of tradition that makes void the word of God. Let us revel in the full extent of Christ's work and God's victory for all mankind."
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 12, 2013, 04:17:01 PM
#407 - GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Sinners do not go away into everlasting punishment. They go into eonian correction. Thank God for the Concordant literal translation, which some in their blindness are condemning. When leaders in the church today condemn something I would be the first one to rush out and get it and examine it for myself. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth. It has never been that way and it is not now.
The unscriptural tradition assigning a limit beyond which Christ has no power to save the obstinate sinner has spread universally. It is worldwide. It claims that the will of man can successfully oppose the power and will of God. "God wills all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4). Let us follow our Lord in His denunciation of tradition that makes void the word of God. Let us revel in the full extent of Christ's work and God's victory for all mankind."
Amen, Amen !! :smile:
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 12, 2013, 04:17:01 PM
#407 - GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Sinners do not go away into everlasting punishment. They go into eonian correction. Thank God for the Concordant literal translation, which some in their blindness are condemning. When leaders in the church today condemn something I would be the first one to rush out and get it and examine it for myself. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth. It has never been that way and it is not now.
The unscriptural tradition assigning a limit beyond which Christ has no power to save the obstinate sinner has spread universally. It is worldwide. It claims that the will of man can successfully oppose the power and will of God. "God wills all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4). Let us follow our Lord in His denunciation of tradition that makes void the word of God. Let us revel in the full extent of Christ's work and God's victory for all mankind."
Amen, brother!
#408 - THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
"God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some, evil is never to cease. God is never able, as they see it, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent, whereas the only freedom of man which the scriptures affirm is the freedom of deliverance we find alone in Christ Jesus."
#409 - A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
"The deliverance of the whole human family from sin and sorrow, its final holiness and happiness, has been the thought of multitudes, even when the prevailing doctrines around them were wholly hostile."
A book of quotes by more than 500 believers in universal salvation.
#410 - TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
"Does God not love His enemies, even as He has taught us to love ours? If He fails to reconcile even one, must it not be due to a lack of love, or of power? These qualities find their source in Him! So of a certainty He shall bring circumstances to bear which shall ultimately cause all to know, with understanding, His great love manifested in the gift of His Son, and this in turn shall fill each heart with adoration and love, and praise to God.
When God's plans for the ages of time (eonian times) have been accomplished, every experience of man will, under the guidance of His wisdom, work together with every other experience for man's highest ultimate good, and thus redound to God's honour and glory."
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 15, 2013, 03:10:15 PM
#410 - TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
"Does God not love His enemies, even as He has taught us to love ours? If He fails to reconcile even one, must it not be due to a lack of love, or of power? These qualities find their source in Him! So of a certainty He shall bring circumstances to bear which shall ultimately cause all to know, with understanding, His great love manifested in the gift of His Son, and this in turn shall fill each heart with adoration and love, and praise to God.
When God's plans for the ages of time (eonian times) have been accomplished, every experience of man will, under the guidance of His wisdom, work together with every other experience for man's highest ultimate good, and thus redound to God's honour and glory."
Amen..."that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28)
#411 - A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
"The adjective aionios, in the case of the wicked, is restricted to a limited period by its noun kolasis; of which the literal sense is clipping or pruning. It means the kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal. If endless were the sense of the adjective describing chastisement, it would represent God as acting under the influence of an endlessly vain expectation.
The belief of the Universalist includes a reconciliation of the tenets of Calvinism and Arminianism, by uniting the leading doctrines of both as far as they are found in the Scriptures; from which union they believe that the sentiment of Universal Restoration naturally flows."
#412 - THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
"It is a great giant, this one called eternal hell!!! It can only be killed by the stone of truth taken from the running waters of God's word. These waters have been running for a long time, but the stone to kill the giant is ready now.
God told Israel to set everything free in the year of Jubilee. God is going to have a Jubilee in totality over all sin, all death, and all destruction in this world. This world belongs to God and it shall be restored and shine with glory. God's tapestry is unrolling bit by bit, and when it is all unrolled, the great Jubilee of rest for the entire universe will be unveiled."
Awesome words. The stone which the builders rejected will topple the six fingered giant. One word directly into the forehead of flint, "LOVE"!
#413 - TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY - G.T. STEVENSON
"Many plain direct statements in the sacred scriptures declare that the purpose of God through our Lord Jesus Christ is to bless all humanity and to bring the whole universe into harmony with Himself.
How can this be if myriads of mankind whom He so loves were to be kept alive forever in hopeless misery? And what kind of a god could love the sinner with Calvary love until he died, and then leave him in indescribable suffering eternally?"
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
What's not mentioned in that verse is who kept the books.
It must be librarian Rodger Tutt :myahoo:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 17, 2013, 10:08:53 AM
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
What's not mentioned in that verse is who kept the books.
It must be librarian Rodger Tutt :myahoo:
YA, BOOKS-R-ME ALRIGHT WHITEWINGS :laugh:
From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
Bless you all, my fellow sojourners in truth. It is at times a difficult road. May we be grounded in His promises. We hope in the living God! Why do I feel the compulsion to yell "sempter phi"? Please forgive bad spelling.
#414 - THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
"The great enmity of mankind is but a background to magnify and display the far greater love of our God. Such love is as measureless as it is timeless; a vast portion being yet unrevealed. 'And having made peace through the blood of Christ's cross, by Him to reconcile all unto Himself, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.' This plan of the ages is our Lord's ultimate purpose according to the declared will of Almighty God. This is the divine destiny of all in His creation. This is love that never fails."
#415 - IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Many Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperilled."
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 19, 2013, 04:14:32 PM
#415 - IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Many Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperilled."
Right, and any that do have the courage to speak the truth usually lose their job, but they gain the blessing of "worshiping in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). No job is worth sacrificing your integrity. If you do the right thing, God will bless you in the long run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
#416 - THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 20, 2013, 03:26:34 PM
#416 - THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
It is not the doctrine of God. It is a lie perpetrated by the church to control its followers with fear.
Quote from: Tom on September 20, 2013, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 20, 2013, 03:26:34 PM
#416 - THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
It is not the doctrine of God. It is a lie perpetrated by the church to control its followers with fear.
How true that is!
THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." See this link.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 21, 2013, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Tom on September 20, 2013, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 20, 2013, 03:26:34 PM
#416 - THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
It is not the doctrine of God. It is a lie perpetrated by the church to control its followers with fear.
How true that is!
THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." See this link.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Brother, I've attached a PDF file with some information about "aidios."
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Tom on September 21, 2013, 05:24:00 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 21, 2013, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Tom on September 20, 2013, 04:12:59 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 20, 2013, 03:26:34 PM
#416 - THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
It is not the doctrine of God. It is a lie perpetrated by the church to control its followers with fear.
How true that is!
THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation." See this link.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Brother, I've attached a PDF file with some information about "aidios."
Thanks for the info on aidios by A.E. Knoch.
Very helpful :thumbsup:
Here's another snippet.
#418 - A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
"The original terms translated everlasting, eternal, forever, are often employed in the Bible, as well as other writings under various limitations of import and are thus withdrawn from the predicament of meaning endless duration.
Since the terms do not necessarily signify an interminable duration, and since there is in the present instance to be pleaded for admitting a limited interpretation, a reason in the moral estimate of things of stupendous infinite urgency involving our perceptions of the divine goodness, and leaving those conceptions overwhelmed in darkness and horror if it be rejected, I therefore conclude that a limited interpretation is authorized."
#419 - IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated."
#420 - THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meagre man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "
#421 - THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
"Some say that if it can be proved that the punishment of the wicked will have an end, the same argument will prove that the life of the righteous will also end. But this is too much to take for granted on such a premise. Aionios does not of itself indicate either the limited or unlimited duration of anything, but its duration in each case depends on the nature of that to which it is applied.
Colored glasses give color to whatever men look at, and it is difficult for many to divest themselves of the influence of former teaching so far as to be willing to look at a thing from the standpoint of another.
Some of us have done this however. Though trained in the old school of thought, we have been enabled, by a careful examination of the Scriptures, to throw off the old idea and to accept the larger and better hope. And we are assured that the plan of the ages with its progressive revelation, and the general scope and spirit of the gospel as a revelation of the infinite love and wisdom of God, are far stronger evidence of the final victory of Christ in saving all men, than the mere definition of any word could be."
Amen.
#422 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3213148682308877255#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
I've seen the video series. It's a good one!
#423 - DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
(These 254 pages are essentially an explanation of why he makes the following statement)
"The whole of scripture is full of the proclamation of a salvation that binds all men by a Redeemer Who gathers together and reconciles the whole universe. That is quite sufficient to enable us to hope for the salvation of all men without thereby coming into contradiction with the Word of God."
It's nice to know so very many others have discovered/perceived U.R.!
And besides that, this, "1 Timothy 2:(3)4" - "for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;" - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
- says it all!! :bigGrin:
#424 - GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
"We do not wish to belittle the awful judgments of God. They will be terrible enough. But we desire to get all the perspective of Scripture and look to the end God has in view.
We do not believe that orthodox theology has done this. It has stopped short in the ages themselves and has misnamed them eternity, and has therefore presented the vision of a heaven full of saints and a hell full of tortured sinners in endless existence. In such a survey of the ultimate there is no place for the vision that Paul gives when God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
We contend that nothing less than the reconciliation of all would satisfy the heart of God and be a fitting consummation to the shedding of the blood of His Son."
Amen, brother.
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 08, 2013, 03:30:56 PM
#424 - GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
"We do not wish to belittle the awful judgments of God. They will be terrible enough. But we desire to get all the perspective of Scripture and look to the end God has in view.
We do not believe that orthodox theology has done this. It has stopped short in the ages themselves and has misnamed them eternity, and has therefore presented the vision of a heaven full of saints and a hell full of tortured sinners in endless existence. In such a survey of the ultimate there is no place for the vision that Paul gives when God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
We contend that nothing less than the reconciliation of all would satisfy the heart of God and be a fitting consummation to the shedding of the blood of His Son."
Roger, so many of these snippets are like words written in flames upon the heart.... I lov them and am continually edified and encouraged by them.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2013, 08:08:13 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 08, 2013, 03:30:56 PM
#424 - GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
"We do not wish to belittle the awful judgments of God. They will be terrible enough. But we desire to get all the perspective of Scripture and look to the end God has in view.
We do not believe that orthodox theology has done this. It has stopped short in the ages themselves and has misnamed them eternity, and has therefore presented the vision of a heaven full of saints and a hell full of tortured sinners in endless existence. In such a survey of the ultimate there is no place for the vision that Paul gives when God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
We contend that nothing less than the reconciliation of all would satisfy the heart of God and be a fitting consummation to the shedding of the blood of His Son."
Rodger, so many of these snippets are like words written in flames upon the heart.... I lov them and am continually edified and encouraged by them.
That's how I hope many people feel about my snippets eaglesway. :thumbsup:
#425 - A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God.
The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (unquote)
This is his comment regarding Matthew 25:46.
Amen, bro. That's why I think the chastening is for the live nations who weren't good to Israel not the dead in the lake of fire because the dead aren't conscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
[attachment deleted by admin]
#426 - THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
"The crowning glory of the 'good news' or evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to bring to the 'gentiles' or nations, is the revelation that He will reconcile all to God.
What a marvellous outcome of God's purpose! What a wonderful Christ Who can accomplish such a complete and glorious reconciliation! All creatures, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, reconciled in perfect peace to the great love of God through the Son of His love.
More of these untraceable honours and glories of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to reveal, could be pointed out with delight, but these will suffice to increase our faith, enrich our joy and brighten our expectation 'in Him in Whom our lot was cast also,' Christ Jesus our Lord, Life, and Head!"
Amen
#427 - CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
'This is life eternal' should be 'the life of the ages,' i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The 'eternal covenant' is the 'covenant of the ages,' the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The 'eternal purpose' is really the purpose of 'the ages,' i.e. developed and worked out in 'the ages.'
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ's work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages 'cometh the end' when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
#428 & 429 - THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
From the time of the apostles to the era of the reformation 1498.
"I have been careful to state, in his own words, the opinion of every Christian author extant concerning future punishment and the eventual salvation of the world. This history contains an account of every individual of note whom we have now the means of knowing to have been a universalist."
THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
Contains the writings of several hundreds of Christian Universalists from 1498 to 1830.
A snippet from Thomas Whittemore reads, "I cannot permit this opportunity to pass without expressing my heart felt acknowledgements to that Being Who has preserved my health and enabled me to finish this work in the midst of other pressing and incessant duties. May my confidence in Him never be diminished."
#430 - THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
"It is argued that whatever be the meaning of the word aionios in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving. But the truth is that this word describes not the quantity or duration, but the quality of that which it is predicated.
The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means 'pruning' and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing."
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 12, 2013, 03:37:10 PM
#428 & 429 - THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
From the time of the apostles to the era of the reformation 1498.
"I have been careful to state, in his own words, the opinion of every Christian author extant concerning future punishment and the eventual salvation of the world. This history contains an account of every individual of note whom we have now the means of knowing to have been a universalist."
:thumbsup: This one sounds
especially good!!
#431 - YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
"Lord, did you really say in Your word what I used to believe You said? Is it actually ok with You that people will spend eternity in hell? No, no, a thousand times no! You do not say that - and I am so relieved. Because had You said that, it would follow that I would have to think of You as worse than a murderer, that is, as a tormentor. If a person is murdered at least the possibility of torture and torment is past. But if I were to believe that You have prepared an eternal hell for some, I would also have to believe that You can be happy while you are tormenting people eternally."
#432 - THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
"I am assured that goodness is the foundation, and happiness is the end of all the ways of God, to myself and every creature. Hope is the anchor of my soul, sure and steadfast; for though 'His ways should be in the deep and His paths in the mighty waters;' though I should experience every external evil; no affliction shall shake my confidence. Never will I dishonour by a moment's distrust, a Being Who has in mercy commanded me to 'cast all my care upon Him;' because 'He careth for me.'
I have in the whole of this treatise, in establishing the doctrine of perfect goodness, and following it in its consequences; constantly combated such erroneous opinions as represent the Creator of the human race as a Being Whose power will be employed in inflicting never ending torments on a portion of His creatures, and I have established the non-eternity of future torments."
#433 - HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
(recently published and can be downloaded FREE, and read online)
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
Believers in eternal torment will probably not want to have anything to do with this link, but others on this forum might.
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
In my opinion, this is the best book ever written in support of the belief that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal transformation, not eternal suffering, or even annihilation.
And I say that, after having read several dozens of them.
Thank You Jesus!
#434 - AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all. The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 27, 2013, 02:40:46 PM
#434 - AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all. The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
Thanks Roger for your faithfulness in bringing to this forum such encouraging material... I'm always encouraged to dig deeper ...
Re: The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection...
or maybe ?? The cross and the "so great a salvation" or the universality of the cross...
I've been going through some of the "stuff" I've collected and put on a pile for future reference... well, the future is now! and the focus of all my pondering, meditating, praying, praising, thanking is the finished work of Jesus and the power of His resurrection...
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 15, 2011, 05:09:22 AM
#4 – A SNIPPET FROM THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
"The corrective effects of kolasis aionios last forever. But as a means to an end, it will not last any longer than is necessary to produce the end for which it exists in the first place. When we finally weary of our own selfishness, petty jealousies, and lust for power; when we learn at last, perhaps through bitter experience, that these lead only to ruin and cannot bring enduring happiness, that nothing short of union with God and reconciliation with others will satisfy our own deepest yearnings; when we discover that the Hound of Heaven has finally closed off every alternative to such a union, we shall then, each of us, finally embrace the destiny that is ours."
What is the meaning of "Hound of Heaven?" :dunno2:
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 17, 2011, 02:24:03 PM
#7 – A SNIPPET FROM GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth It has never been that way and it is not now."
Absolutely true! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on October 28, 2013, 12:41:04 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 15, 2011, 05:09:22 AM
#4 – A SNIPPET FROM THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
"The corrective effects of kolasis aionios last forever. But as a means to an end, it will not last any longer than is necessary to produce the end for which it exists in the first place. When we finally weary of our own selfishness, petty jealousies, and lust for power; when we learn at last, perhaps through bitter experience, that these lead only to ruin and cannot bring enduring happiness, that nothing short of union with God and reconciliation with others will satisfy our own deepest yearnings; when we discover that the Hound of Heaven has finally closed off every alternative to such a union, we shall then, each of us, finally embrace the destiny that is ours."
What is the meaning of "Hound of Heaven?" :dunno2:
Refrence to this poem?
THE HOUND OF HEAVEN
Francis Thompson
I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the midst of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmed fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
'All things betray thee, who betrayest Me'.
I pleaded, outlaw-wise,
By many a hearted casement, curtained red,
Trellised with intertwining charities;
(For, though I knew His love Who followed,
Yet was I sore adread
Lest, having Him, I must have naught beside.)
But, if one little casement parted wide,
The gust of His approach would clash it to:
Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.
Across the margent of the world I fled,
And troubled the gold gateway of the stars,
Smiting for shelter on their clanged bars;
Fretted to dulcet jars
And silvern chatter the pale ports o' the moon.
I said to Dawn: Be sudden—to Eve: Be soon;
With thy young skiey blossom heap me over
From this tremendous Lover—
Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see!
I tempted all His servitors, but to find
My own betrayal in their constancy,
In faith to Him their fickleness to me,
Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.
To all swift things for swiftness did I sue;
Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.
But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,
The long savannahs of the blue;
Or, whether, Thunder-driven,
They clanged his chariot 'thwart a heaven,
Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o' their feet:—
Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.
Still with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbed pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
Came on the following Feet,
And a Voice above their beat—
'Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me.'
I sought no more after that which I strayed
In face of man or maid;
But still within the little children's eyes
Seems something, something that replies,
They at least are for me, surely for me!
I turned me to them very wistfully;
But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair
With dawning answers there,
Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.
Come then, ye other children, Nature's—share
With me' (said I) 'your delicate fellowship;
Let me greet you lip to lip,
Let me twine with you caresses,
Wantoning
With our Lady-Mother's vagrant tresses,
Banqueting
With her in her wind-walled palace,
Underneath her azured dais,
Quaffing, as your taintless way is,
From a chalice
Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring.'
So it was done:
I in their delicate fellowship was one—
Drew the bolt of Nature's secrecies.
I knew all the swift importings
On the wilful face of skies;
I knew how the clouds arise
Spumèd of the wild sea-snortings;
All that's born or dies
Rose and drooped with; made them shapers
Of mine own moods, or wailful divine;
With them joyed and was bereaven.
I was heavy with the even,
When she lit her glimmering tapers
Round the day's dead sanctities.
I laughed in the morning's eyes.
I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,
Heaven and I wept together,
And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine:
Against the red throb of its sunset-heart
I laid my own to beat,
And share commingling heat;
But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.
In vain my tears were wet on Heaven's grey cheek.
For ah! we know not what each other says,
These things and I; in sound I speak—
Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.
Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth;
Let her, if she would owe me,
Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me
The breasts o' her tenderness:
Never did any milk of hers once bless
My thirsting mouth.
Nigh and nigh draws the chase,
With unperturbed pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy;
And past those noisèd Feet
A voice comes yet more fleet—
'Lo! naught contents thee, who content'st not Me.'
Naked I wait Thy love's uplifted stroke!
My harness piece by piece Thou has hewn from me,
And smitten me to my knee;
I am defenceless utterly.
I slept, methinks, and woke,
And, slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep.
In the rash lustihead of my young powers,
I shook the pillaring hours
And pulled my life upon me; grimed with smears,
I stand amidst the dust o' the mounded years—
My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap.
My days have crackled and gone up in smoke,
Have puffed and burst as sun-starts on a stream.
Yea, faileth now even dream
The dreamer, and the lute the lutanist;
Even the linked fantasies, in whose blossomy twist
I swung the earth a trinket at my wrist,
Are yielding; cords of all too weak account
For earth with heavy griefs so overplussed.
Ah! is Thy love indeed
A weed, albeit an amarinthine weed,
Suffering no flowers except its own to mount?
Ah! must—
Designer infinite!—
Ah! must Thou char the wood ere Thou canst limn with it?
My freshness spent its wavering shower i' the dust;
And now my heart is as a broken fount,
Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever
From the dank thoughts that shiver
Upon the sighful branches of my mind.
Such is; what is to be?
The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind?
I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds;
Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
From the hid battlements of Eternity;
Those shaken mists a space unsettle, then
Round the half-glimpsed turrets slowly wash again.
But not ere him who summoneth
I first have seen, enwound
With glooming robes purpureal, cypress-crowned;
His name I know and what his trumpet saith.
Whether man's heart or life it be which yields
Thee harvest, must Thy harvest-fields
Be dunged with rotten death?
Now of that long pursuit
Comes on at hand the bruit;
That Voice is round me like a bursting sea:
'And is thy earth so marred,
Shattered in shard on shard?
Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest Me!
'Strange, piteous, futile thing!
Wherefore should any set thee love apart?
Seeing none but I makes much of naught' (He said),
'And human love needs human meriting:
How hast thou merited—
Of all man's clotted clay the dingiest clot?
Alack, thou knowest not
How little worthy of any love thou art!
Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,
Save Me, save only Me?
All which I took from thee I did but take,
Not for thy harms,
But just that thou might'st seek it in My arms.
All which thy child's mistake
Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home:
Rise, clasp My hand, and come!'
Halts by me that footfall:
Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly?
'Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
I am He Whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest Me.'
#435 - THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
"It may be questioned whether we understand the terms 'forever,' 'forever and ever,' and 'everlasting,' aright, for these terms are used in divers places as things that have an end and are understood in a limited and qualified sense. These terms are too weak a foundation to build an assertion of everlasting hell upon, as concludes and shuts up God forever in wrath, never to come forth in the exercise of mercy. Whether or not there is an ending is not revealed by the use of these terms.
O my God, Thou art love and canst no more cease to be so than to be Thyself. Take Thy own methods with us, and submit us to them. Well may we do so in an assurance that the beginning, the way, and the end of them all is love. I must believe then that Thy grace will super-abound wherever sin hath most abounded."
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 28, 2013, 02:22:44 PM
#435 - THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
"It may be questioned whether we understand the terms 'forever,' 'forever and ever,' and 'everlasting,' aright, for these terms are used in divers places as things that have an end and are understood in a limited and qualified sense. These terms are too weak a foundation to build an assertion of everlasting hell upon, as concludes and shuts up God forever in wrath, never to come forth in the exercise of mercy. Whether or not there is an ending is not revealed by the use of these terms.
O my God, Thou art love and canst no more cease to be so than to be Thyself. Take Thy own methods with us, and submit us to them. Well may we do so in an assurance that the beginning, the way, and the end of them all is love. I must believe then that Thy grace will super-abound wherever sin hath most abounded."
Amen!! Truth is the epitome of logic! (It's humans who are illogical!) If a doctrine doesn't jive with the HOLY and 100% GOOD nature and character of God.. it needs to be re-thought!! Especially "hell".. bigtime! And every-single-verse or reference
believed to support it are easily understood otherwise! God does not torture. (Surely??) (If "the elect" did nothing to be 'elected' why do others need to be tortured in order to believe and repent?? Just what can prevent God's Will??)
#436 - THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
"In 1Timothy 2: 5&6 we read, 'For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras).' This scripture defines the purpose of God through the name Jesus. Thus God exalts His Son, so at the name of Jesus, the name which means that He is salvation, 'every knee shall be bowing and every tongue shall be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.' Philippians 2:9-11.
The name of Jesus must not be held in contempt. It must be exalted. How could those who bow the knee and acknowledge Him as Lord ever thus dishonour the name of Jesus, which they would be doing if they were lost? It was Jesus who died to save them as He gave His life a correspondent ransom for all. God will exalt that precious name as He transports us all into the kingdom of the Son of His love."
#437 - UNION – JAMES RELLY
In his book UNION, Relly presents scriptural texts for the view that universal salvation is assured. He argues that Jesus Christ's union with all human beings, and His assumption of their guilt for their sins ensures that the entire human race will be saved.
He further argues that faith is the result, not the cause, of experiencing the saving power of God.
He wrote, "Man, being the vessel marred between the Potter's hands is not rejected, but made into another and better vessel." (Jeremiah 18:2).
#438 - THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."
#439 - THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 31, 2013, 01:50:24 PM
#439 - THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
Amen, brother.
The assumption that the second death is somehow the same as the first death is a root of misunderstanding for many, I believe anyway.
IMO what dies in the second death is what didn't die in the first for those who have not "died in Christ"- every stronghold and tower that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God- it is the destruction of the veil that blinds the eyes to the knowledge of the gospel of glory of God in the face of Christ(2 Corinthians 4).
Isaiah 25:7
New International Version
On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations;
New American Standard Bible
And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
Young's Literal Translation
And swallowed up hath He in this mountain The face of the wrapping that is wrapped over all the peoples, And of the covering that is spread over all the nations.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/JudgmentAndDeath.html
#440 - GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
"From the beginning God was and always will be a God of all grace. He purposes to be All in all of His creation; but every man in his own foreordained and previously marked out order. No doctrine is of God that does not include, 'Having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His own benevolent design, which He previously purposed in Himself: that in the fullness of the ages He will gather together in one all in Christ, both those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth, even in Him.'
It is wrong to teach that this age of grace will soon end. In our redeemed bodies we will be righteous, and in the ages to come we will be teaching the grace of God to others."
!
#441 - HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of aion.
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the Greek noun aion must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal continues."
#442 - THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love."
#443 - THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC – LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD
The following is my all-time favorite quote. I've had it memorized for many years and I quote it frequently. As a staunch universalist, Leslie Weatherhead meant it to include everyone without exception, after everyone who needs it experiences kolasis aionion, or age-during corrective chastisement.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
#444 - TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
"Modern theology has so long circumvented our thinking and teaching to the biased idea that God will save only part of His creation and so limited His redemptive powers that we have forgotten that with God all things are possible and shall be wrought out in due time. God has a definite schedule for saving His creatures, and there is nothing that can withstand His purpose.
Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. It is all a part of God's purpose of the ages and redemption's glory will only shine out the more after the plan's execution. God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control."
Roger, I am always blessed by your posts, but thank you for a recent post you made from Dusean Berkich. I have been reading his book and it is answering the agony of my heart. Thank you for every rabbit trail you have sent me on.
Quote from: Deena on November 13, 2013, 06:15:24 AM
Roger, I am always blessed by your posts, but thank you for a recent post you made from Dusean Berkich. I have been reading his book and it is answering the agony of my heart. Thank you for every rabbit trail you have sent me on.
I love the UR rabbit trails too Deena.
I've enjoyed travelling down many of them.
#445 - THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING [my favorite rabbit :-) ]
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 13, 2013, 04:28:58 PM
Quote from: Deena on November 13, 2013, 06:15:24 AM
Roger, I am always blessed by your posts, but thank you for a recent post you made from Dusean Berkich. I have been reading his book and it is answering the agony of my heart. Thank you for every rabbit trail you have sent me on.
I love the UR rabbit trails too Deena.
I've enjoyed travelling down many of them.
#445 - THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING [my favorite rabbit :-) ]
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
I saw a pamphlet a Mennonite handed me the other day. It said, "You can't ignore God forever..." True. But that's not what they really believe. They, and other protestants, teach that you
can choose to ignore God forever and face eternity in hell. But that is not an option: (1) no such thing as hell; (2) We cannot go against God's will. I recently told someone that God's will is always done, and they immediately bombarded me with questions like, "Then is it God's will that one man murder another? I'll can't believe that that's God's will! He said 'thou shalt not kill.' " Well, that question is hard to answer unless one has full faith that even our fall into sin is part of God's plan and thus his will. ET'ers don't buy that! YLT translated 1 Timothy 2:4 thusly: "[God our savior] who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." God is sovereign, but I don't think ET'ers really understand the fullness of his sovereignty. 1 Timothy 2:4 is a mighty powerful verse; the whole chapter, is!
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 10, 2013, 02:53:10 PM
#444 - TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
"Modern theology has so long circumvented our thinking and teaching to the biased idea that God will save only part of His creation and so limited His redemptive powers that we have forgotten that with God all things are possible and shall be wrought out in due time. God has a definite schedule for saving His creatures, and there is nothing that can withstand His purpose.
Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. It is all a part of God's purpose of the ages and redemption's glory will only shine out the more after the plan's execution. God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control."
AWESOME!
AWESOMER!
AWESOMEST!
#446 - THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
#447 - DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
#448 - THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
"Today every warden in the U.S. endorses the ideal of rehabilitation. Shall we say then that God is less reasonable than His creatures? No! God's punishments exist not for vindictive suffering, but rather for remedy! Praise His Holy Name!
God works with a glorious end in view. We have viewed the judgments of God against sin and unrighteousness as the end, when in reality they are only a means to an end. The revelation of scriptural truth does not view God's judgments in the ages to come as vindictive, as if to say that God is vengeful, implacable, and hateful against men (as all too often those who profess His Name appear to be!), This insight into God's purposes in judgment rather declares that these judgments are remedial, that they exist to effect a positive divine end for everyone.
Christ died "to reconcile all unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross" Colossians 1:20. The all saving Cross of Christ will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinner have no more a name among the creatures of God."
Faithful and True!
#449 - THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
"God says He will reconcile all; the whole creation shall ultimately be delivered, and every created thing shall finally praise God (Revelation 5:13).
The point that I wish the reader especially to note is that the final accomplishment of this purpose of God depends on Himself, and not on man. The creature may fail, the Creator never fails; and no amount of blunders, mistakes, failures or perversions of the creature shall disarrange or thwart the plans of the Creator. This is the true basis of redemption."
#450 - THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"To know the true and living God 'out of Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:6, is to recognize that His purpose for His creatures can only be loving, wise, righteous, and good.
To know Jesus Christ, 'through Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:8, is to know that God's purpose cannot fail. Shall we who know Him and have had ours eyes opened to the glorious triumph of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ sit idly by and let reproach be heaped upon His Name without protesting?
Think how the teaching of endless punishment slanders God and Jesus Christ! We know Christ died for all (1Tim. 2:6). Does God lack the goodness, the power, the love, the grace to save all? God declares that judgment is eonian; man says it is everlasting. Let us believe God and not man."
Joseph Kirk
#451 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"Regarding the argument that if the punishment of the unbelievers has an end, then the life of the believers has an end also at the end of the ages.
But life cannot end at that time because death is abolished (1Cor. 15:26). The life of the eons ends when all are vivified at the end or consummation of the eons (1Cor. 15:24).
Life itself, however, continues on interminably."
"Regarding the argument that in 2Cor. 4:18 eonian must mean eternal because it is set in contrast with the word temporal meaning enduring for time as opposed to eternity.
But the Greek word translated temporal has no connection with the word for time; it is literally 'toward season,' and means temporary or for the era. In this passage eonian is used in contrast between our afflictions which last for a brief season, and our promised long enduring eonian glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation when God become All in all."
William C. Rebman
#452 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"What was done cannot be undone. The work of God and the obedience of Christ on Golgotha is not something conditional on whether or not we believe it or respond to it or prepare ourselves for it. It has already happened, and its effects are unstoppable. The consequence of the obedience of Christ is that every descendant of Adam will be constituted righteous. When Christ died, God was there in Him conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offences to them (2Cor. 5:19). Peace is not made by us; it is made by God in the death of His Son. And now God is entreating through us that this peace might be recognized and enjoyed (2Cor. 5:20)."
Dean Hough
#453 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"The use of 'forever and ever' instead of the accurate rendering 'for the eons of the eons,' is a gross mistranslation. Most translators simply lacked the insight to see the point of many of the passages that speak of the eons. Since they were able, however, to make sense of these passages by translating by 'everlasting' or 'eternal,' they simply went ahead and did so, any resultant problems notwithstanding. Due to a lack of sensible thinking it was impossible for them to face the fact that the usual translations of this word are quite mistaken and extremely harmful!"
James Coram
#454 - UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
By way of introduction Knoch wrote
"In this little handbook we tear away the false traditions of Christendom first. Then we remove the dark cover which philosophical mistranslations have laid over God's Book. With these gone all that is necessary is to read God's message to us more carefully, and its overwhelmingly glorious solution of this vexed problem illuminates our minds and flood our hearts with exultant joy and praise and adoration to the God of all grace and glory."
Then, by way of conclusion at the end of His book Knoch wrote
"We have considered the traditions of Christendom which darken this subject and found them unscriptural. My love to God and my admiration have increased unutterably since I have seen that He is not the defeated fiend of Christendom, but is fully able to cope with evil and sin, and bind them all to the chariot wheels of love. All His attributes, including holiness, and righteousness, serve in the livery of love. Adored be His Name!"
#455 - CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
"Before the last age is over, every knee in heaven and in earth and under the earth will have bowed to Christ, and every tongue will have confessed to God that He is Lord to the glory of God (Phil. 2:10). 'In the name of Jesus' (literal translation) signifies much more than is implied by the simple use of the Name in speech. According to the idiom it signifies 'in the very nature of Jesus,' and as no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3), we know that there will be no hypocritical confession, nor will there be any confession by compulsion, but a true confession of Christ by every creature in the universe, and that to the glory of God the Father."
#456 - EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for the eons of the eons."
#457 - THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
"All creation remains within the care and keeping of its Creator. The vessels which become marred never leave the hand of the Potter; they are marred while still in His hand. The lesson that was taught Jeremiah (Jer. 18:4), though to be interpreted as relating to Israel, nevertheless embodies a principle which is sustained throughout the whole outworking of God's purpose. He holds all in the hollow of His hand, and though He may allow, and even cause, some of His creatures to temporarily turn away from Him, He never lets them go. That is why Paul can write in Romans 8:20, 'For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
#458 - THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
"To those who would challenge the truth of the reconciliation of all, I would reply, 'It is God's choice, and praise be to Him that He has chosen it to be so. Let no one deny God the right to choose as He wills.' "
"When God's conciliatory hand of friendship has been grasped by all in complete reconciliation, and when the wisdom of His choosings and His appointments, that is His sovereignty has been universally accepted beyond question – in short, when God is All in all, then every one of His creatures will rejoice in being one of HIS achievements, and all in the heavens and on earth will be both prepared and glad to acknowledge that of themselves they have contributed nothing, but that ALL HAS BEEN OF HIM."
Powerful, beautiful!
#459 - THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)
"A time is coming when Christ, the Beloved Himself, stands before His Father Who is Love, with the entire universe in train. What a thrilling reception, what a glorious presentation that will be! The great end for which the God of expectation waited, in perfect assurance, and for which Christ gave Himself. How fully will such a conclusion accord with the delight of His will!
There was a time when such greatness of salvation was more widely believed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
But the imposed beliefs of the dark ages spoiled all this. Christendom was held as with iron bands in the grip of priest-ridden assent. And although their teaching is kept in the background, it is still there, giving that fatal bias which so clouds the perception of grace. Thus, we find resort to the limiting of Scripture by Scripture, to the seeing of finality when God's purpose is in continuance, and the ignoring of those passages which so blessedly bring out the fullness and triumph of saving grace. But how happy should they be who, brought to a present belief, enjoy to the full the prospect of future salvation for all, even the reconciliation of the universe.
Stage upon stage, the Victor of Golgotha will move on His momentous and victorious way. Then will He show that 'the Father has delivered all into His hands' John 13:3. And in those capable hands, the world, even though it be by tumult, will be led to peace. What a perfect expression God's grace finds in such a scene! What a realization of the truth attendant on so great a salvation! How rapturous a vision, too, of the One Who carried it to such a conclusion, Who sought until He found, Who loved until He won!"
#460 - GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God 'is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the 'all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
'To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' "
#461 - TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
"Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God's affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God's love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God's limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.
Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!"
#462 - A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
"We scan the dark ages of man and note how in the most pitiful ignorance, men, women, and children have died without the light of love – bitter, belaboured and bereft of hope. All this and worse if the theories of men who limit the Gospel of Christ are right!
But why limit God? Why limit His power? Why indeed limit His plan and purposes for the ages of time? Why take part of His plan and label it as the whole? Why limit the great God of love at all, He Who is infinite love? Why indeed limit the compassion and overflowing love of Jesus 'who gave Himself a ransom for all'? (1Tim. 2:5,6). Are not the arms of Jesus long enough or strong enough to reach out and snatch the sinner from the jaws of suffering and death, if not in this dispensation, then in the ages to come? God 'will have all men to be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth' (Rom. 5:18). Never let it be said that any one of us limited God in any way."
#463 - THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
"Words are inadequate to describe the harm which has resulted from confounding the ages with eternity.
The Greek and Hebrew terms rendered 'forever and ever,' 'eternal,' 'everlasting' never refer to endlessness; but to a series of terminable periods know as age-times. These ages are periods in which God carries on remedial work, but they have a conclusion and pass away when the purpose to be accomplished in them has been realized. The ages are never synonymous with endlessness but always distinct therefrom.
That the words translated 'forever and ever' are associated with the hereafter of both believer and unbeliever is true; but in the case of both it is limited to the span of the ages, and has not the remotest reference to the final state of either. Therefore the dogmas of endless agony and endless sin rest on purely imaginary premises and are without the slightest shred of biblical support."
#464 - "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
This writing is a detailed explanation of why the author makes the following statement.
"The barbarous and heathen dogma of endless torment is refuted by the very passages on which orthodoxy depends for its support."
#465 - "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
" 'This is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth' (1Tim. 2:3). This passage shows us what is the driving force behind salvation, the will of God. It is God Who is the Saviour, not us, and it is His will that is the decisive factor that results in the saving of all.
Many believers will have some to be saved, some to be reconciled; God will have all to be saved, all to be reconciled. He will be All in all, not all in some. Many insist on the word 'some' because it makes human endeavour a part of salvation; they will not recognize that human endeavour is, of itself, vanity, and that all is of God. He, the One, does everything for the all, that in each He may display His grace. Let us not claim for ourselves the glory of our salvation, but give it wholly to Him."
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 28, 2013, 03:28:00 PM
#465 - "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
" 'This is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth' (1Tim. 2:3). This passage shows us what is the driving force behind salvation, the will of God. It is God Who is the Saviour, not us, and it is His will that is the decisive factor that results in the saving of all.
Many believers will have some to be saved, some to be reconciled; God will have all to be saved, all to be reconciled. He will be All in all, not all in some. Many insist on the word 'some' because it makes human endeavour a part of salvation; they will not recognize that human endeavour is, of itself, vanity, and that all is of God. He, the One, does everything for the all, that in each He may display His grace. Let us not claim for ourselves the glory of our salvation, but give it wholly to Him."
Beautiful
And again BEAUTIFUL!
#466 - ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)
In summing up his book he wrote
"Christ has truly made peace 'through the blood of His cross.' But the clear potency of it is yet to be seen when the ministry of reconciliation has accomplished its beneficial purpose. Then, the salvation of all is at last a wondrous reality. The tendency we see in God's great stream of the eons has widened and enlarged until all are richly blessed by its satisfying power. Its noble volume, now freed of all obstacles, attains a majestic flow. And so, by seemingly strange and inexplicable ways, the God of all grace accomplishes His purpose. For 'Grace not in rills, but cataracts rolls.' How glorious the stream, and how salutary its miraculous power! Sin has affected all, all but One glorious, sinless Being, and He in marvelous grace triumphs completely over it.
There will not be a single creature, then, above or below, who is not 'lost in wonder, love and praise.' A scene truly to inspire, and continuously impel to grateful thanks. Transcendent grace indeed, in fullest flow."
Thanks Roger for all the wonderful God-glorifying snippets during 2013.
==========
William Mealand is on my list of favorite UR writers.
Since this will be my final post for 2013, I decided to share excerpts from William Mealand's article GRACE AND GLORY which I recently printed --eloquent, edifying, encouraging, enlightening ...
...
Will He not make life's broken circle whole,
As, working on, He moves to one rare goal --
The love of all His creatures, and praise from every soul?
Now, to our vision, passing interplay
Of good and ill, the bane of life's strange way.
Then, the dawn of God's own cloudless, fairest day.
... to believe that not only are "all things possible with God," but that He has laid the charge upon Himself as "THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND," is surely to believe gloriously of Him. But then, God is great, and greatly to be praised. The Son of His love, too, brings Him near to the hearts of men. For is He not God's Image, Firstborn of every creature? And the universe has been created, not only through Him, but for Him. A perfect universe it must surely be, if it is for Him Who gives Himself a ransom for ALL. His to hold in regal grace, till given up to God, the Father.
A lifetime here is all too short to sound the praise of grace and glory. But in the on-coming eons we shall have time in richer measure, with thought and action gladly captive to Christ our Lord. His potent grace we all shall see, as with the members of His body glorious we pass from glory to glory transcending.
But even here and now there is given to us a rare sense of God's grace. There is the intense realization it gives of salvation from self, and from the spirit of the world. The revelation to our hearts of the things we are saved from, and finer still, the unspeakable value of the things to which we are drawn.
Thanks for sharing Anna.
#467 - "ETERNAL LIFE" – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Hebrew and Greek scholars know that there is no word in the Bible corresponding to our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means unending. Most theologians know this too, but they don't teach it. Only one who is willing to stand for TRUTH for truth's sake and is willing to be branded a fanatic would dare to challenge the translation 'eternal life.'
'Eternal life,' so called, pertains to relationship and quality. What men are urged to 'lay hold of' is 'eonian life' or 'real life' or 'true life.' It is not duration but quality. How tragic that truths like this are covered up by faulty translations!"
The only definition of 'eternal life' so-called, in the entire Bible is clearly stated in John 17:3, 'And this is life eternal (eonian), that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' That describes relationship, not duration; it signifies quality, not quantity."
#468 - TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
"After long years of torturing doubts, God had mercy on me and turned my darkness into light, my despair into joy and my misery into exultation. He brought me into touch with His revelation, just as He had written it, apart from most of the mistranslations of well-meaning men, who were bound by creeds and tradition.
I found out that sin and suffering are confined to the eons or ages, as 'forever' and 'everlasting' should be translated. There will indeed be an awful judgment, but it will not merely punish, but set right all wrongs.
Not only will God bring all of earth's inhabitants back into the sunlight of His love, but, through the blood of Christ's cross, He will reconcile all to Him, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). The present enmity toward God on the part of terrestrial and celestial creatures will, in due time, be used as a background to display His love. That is why I no longer have torturing doubts, but revel in exultant faith."
#469 - THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
"We read in 1Tim. 1:11 that Paul was entrusted with the evangel of the glory of the happy God. We read in 1Tim. 2:4 that God wills that all mankind be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and that Christ Jesus gave Himself a correspondent ransom for all (2:6).
Our God is a happy God. In Ephesians 1:10,11 we learn of the secret of God's will, and this accords with His delight. It gives God joy and happiness and delight to purpose and bring about 'an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ.'
Such an evangel is certainly for the laud of His glory."
#470 - THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
"Coming to the close of the last age, we find the earth filled with God's righteousness. All know Him from the least to the greatest. The earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Through His own blood, Christ has reconciled all back to God. We see every tongue confessing in love and adoration Christ as Lord. This can only be done in obedience and love as it is a unanimous Praise of the Universe to the glory of God the Father (Colossians 1:20).
It is little wonder that all gladly proclaim redemption's story. God now rises in everyone, bringing the consummation of God's plan of the ages – a complete circle, from God in Himself to GOD ALL IN ALL."
#471 - GOD'S PERFECT PLAN
"Many attempts have been made to prove that eons are eternal. The Greek word aion and the Hebrew olam, both meaning age or eon, have been translated by terms meaning endlessness. This is a grave error, for the divine Author, Himself has not used them in this way. He has indicated that they were not eternal in the past by informing us that they had a beginning (1Cor. 2:7), and, again, that they cannot possibly be everlasting in the future, for they are to end (Heb. 9:26; 1Cor. 10:11).
God's plan for creation is confined to time. It is not an 'eternal' purpose' but a 'purpose of the eons' (Eph. 3:11). Beyond the ages there will be naught but bliss and perfection for every member of creation (Rom. 8:19-22). Sin and evil and death will then be past; all will be saved and reconciled, and God shall be All, not in a few, but in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
#472 - A snippet from GOD'S METHODS WITH MAN – G. Campbell Morgan (pages 185-186)
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. Men have divided the church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible."
G. Campbell Morgan
In response to that statement, the SCRIPTURE STUDIES CONCERN editor (unnamed) wrote in 1956
"We cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One Who is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages. God's punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour."
#473 - NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
"In Romans 5:18,19 we have on the one side as the cause one lapse and the effects extending to all mankind for condemnation. We have on the other side one just sentence of acquittal, and the effect extending to all mankind for a justifying that carries with it LIFE.
Since 'the many' were involved in sin and death through the agency of one man, Adam, 'much more' may we believe that 'the many' will be involved in righteousness and life through the agency of the One Man, Christ Jesus."
EDITOR'S NOTE:
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
#474 - AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
"By examining the texts of the Greek manuscripts we find the word AIONIOS or AGE LASTING in place of the word eternal of the King James version. AIONIOS the adjective modifies its noun AION or AGE and means lasting during the AGE, or AGE-LASTING.
For that meticulous student of the Word of God that was penned by the inspired writers, I am including this concordance of the Greek noun AION and its adjective AIONIOS for your reference in your studies of the mistranslations of the King James version versus the text of the Greek manuscripts."
#475 - THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
"Many do not understand the extent and purpose of God, that He is the propitiation for our sins, AND NOT OURS ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the whole world (1John 4:10).
God is calling us to come up higher into Him and begin to see from His eyes, from His position.
God never loses! HE WINS ALL! He said, 'Pick up the fragments, let NOTHING be lost.
This is seen from His side of the picture. We do not have a tired and frustrated God unable or unwilling to save His own creation. He will vindicate His own character and nature of love and power. Praise His Name!"
#476 - DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
"All of God's judgments are corrective measures that counteract, and also cooperate for the eventual good and reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world.
God never judges in vengeance for vengeance sake, but only for ultimate rehabilitation. He has His perfect timing to bring forth ultimate good for all. Thus many divine judgments are postponed until iniquity comes to the full (Gen. 15:16).
All must experience human failure and total depravity to the full in order to appreciate salvation when God eventually sets all things right throughout the whole universe (Isa. 9:26; and Phil. 2:10,11).
#477 - GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
"The whole universe will feel the impact and glory of the cross as it takes away the sin of the world. This expression of God's influence, power, and love will continue to shine out of His own heart until all come under His sway; saved, purified, changed, and drawn back into Himself.
None can escape the loving and corrective judgment of the Father. Nothing shall be lost or wasted. The true light is shining more and more unto that perfect day when all shall be understood – God reaching His own ultimate plan, the great cycle of love completed; God All in all, everything in everybody. This is true love in the full expression of the cross."
#478 - THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
"Babylonish religion would have us believe that everything will end when this age concludes; however, God is not the least bit influenced by man's religion since He already determined that His redemptive plan involves the ages beyond this present age. In the age of the fullness of times, all things in the heavens and on earth that have not yet been gathered into Christ, will then be gathered into Him (Eph. 1:8-10).
The will of God has been positively affirmed in this matter, for Paul wrote of God, 'Who will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth,' (1Tim 2:4). The Lord is omnipotent and shall perform all that He has purposed concerning all mankind, 'Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE' (Is. 46:10).
#479 - "FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"Because of their past teaching in the tradition of man, many will argue that man's own will shall prevent the fulfilling of God's own stated will. But according to God's word of truth wherein He cannot lie, He shall mercifully prove them to be wrong. Fortunately for mankind, God works ALL things, including man's destiny, after the counsel of His own will, and always, what His soul desires, even that He does (Job 23:13).
Believe it or not, God's intimate sovereign control is absolute and universal in scope (Job 3:7), even to the extent of man's delusions (2Thes. 1:11; Is. 66:4; Jer. 6:19). This is notably evident in the church's delusion – that God cannot successful influence the human will unless we let Him. But God has absolute control over the extent of success to which His word reaches and changes others, even to the extent of controlling what that word means to each individual (Is. 29:14; Matt. 13:11; 19:11).
It is a prophetic fact, predetermined, willed, divinely promised, and assured by the word of our faithful God Who in fact 'WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED' (1Tim. 2:4), This is true not only because 'HE IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN' (1Tim. 4:10), and not just of the first fruits whom He now specially causes to believe, but also because of the truth that 'HE IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH or be rendered unfit for the ultimate pleasure of His will (Rev. 4:11; Eph. 1:5,9; Col. 1:19,20), for 'IT IS NOT OF HIM WHO IS WILLING, NOR OF HIM WHO RUNS, BUT OF GOD (Rom. 9:16).
#480 - "MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"Some believe that God's satisfaction will be found in the eternal torment [or annihilation] of some of His creatures. But John was not speaking of a perverted pleasure when he penned, 'Thou hast created all things and for Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). God's plan and purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) is to include perfectly executed and unique stages of progressive development resulting in the final restoration and reconciliation of all.
God has been and always will be in absolute sovereign control over His entire cosmic plan, even unto its ultimate consummation in perfection. His plan for all of humanity cannot fail. All of His working together of good and evil is in perfect harmony and balance. God's love shall not fail. His absolute power and might insures His completing of all He has willed to do, both in our individual salvation, and in the universal salvation that is sure to come."
Thanks Roger. Nice snippets.
.
Quote from: ed on January 15, 2014, 03:09:11 PM
Thanks Rodger. Nice snippets.
My pleasure Ed.#481 - "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
#482 - THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
"The throne is white. May the One Who will be seated upon it keep us from painting it black. The judgment is viewed in the light of its outcome. If it leads to eternal conscious torment for all who stand before it as orthodoxy demands, then the throne is black and an outrage on justice and a heartless exhibition of fiendish cruelty.
It is only when we see that the outcome of this judgment is universal reconciliation (Col. 1:20), that we can really acknowledge that the throne is white. It is only when we limit the actual infliction of pain and penalties to the judgment era that we are able to appreciate the righteousness of God's throne.
The judgment is as varied as the individual. It is as different as their acts. Some will suffer severely, some slightly, and all according to their deserts. But there is no reason to prolong this time to infinity. It is preparatory to their reconciliation."
Wow, that is so succinct, so balanced, so true.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 17, 2014, 08:08:05 PM
Wow, that is so succinct, so balanced, so true.
:thumbsup:
#483 - PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
"Salvation through Christ will extend outward to include all people (Rom 5:18; 1Tim. 2:4-6). Indeed it is far more than that. Salvation in Christ reaches out to embrace all intelligent beings in the entirety of the universe (Eph. 1:10; Phil. 2:10,11; Col. 1:15-20). The power of God to save is all encompassing. And when God sets out to accomplish a task (such as saving the world and the universe), He will be successful – God will always be successful!
No power in the universe, including Satan himself, can thwart God's plan to save all those within His creation. And this is precisely where Progressive Revelation leads – it leads to the truth that God will finally save all!"
#484 - THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."
#485 - THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
"The freedom we now enjoy in spirit will ultimately be enjoyed by the whole creation when it is reconciled to God, and this includes the whole of humanity, for God wills all mankind to be saved and to come into a realization of the truth (1Tim.2:4). When His purpose is accomplished, there will be no vessels of indignation left.
When the reconciliation of all is complete the joy of the universe will be full. When the purpose of the All-sufficient God has reached its consummation, and He is All in all, every heart will be filled with the true laughter which accompanies the praise and adoration of Him Who is Supreme and Whose name is Love."
#486 - A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
"It is hard for man to accept how completely he is in the hands of God. Churchianity pictures God as sitting off to one side, waiting and pleading for His creatures to come to Him. Instead of that He is the active force; He is the mover of all things. We simply live and move and have our being in Him (Acts 17:28). If He does not move us we are not moved; if He does not enlighten us we are not enlightened.
The course that God has taken to accomplish His purpose for man is preeminently the right one for God is Almighty, so there is no question of His power to do whatever He wills, and He wills all men to be saved (1Tim. 2:3&4)."
..and because God created evil, tho, imo, indirectly by endowing thinking ability which includes - the ability to make choices (whereby a whole new world, or tree, of possibilities came to be).. Therefor being the author of 'evil' He built the rescue of "all" into all things "from the foundation"/beginning of the world..
Why oh why would he punish anyone?? and there MUST be a different reason for the 2nd resurrection as opposed to all being in the 1st than their needing more extreme measures to "believe"
the word "wrath" when used referring to God, is a word meaning passion and going toward.. even gathering..
as opposed to such verses where men have wrath, is a different word used..
:Peace2: :smile:
#487 - RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 23, 2014, 04:21:51 PM
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible.
How so? :dontknow:
#488 - THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
The introduction reads "Mistranslation of the Greek word 'aion' is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. Because the understanding of the eons and God's purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on important issues like judgment, and man's destiny. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after spiritual truth will be aided in their quest."
Here is a snippet from the writing itself. "During this present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), sin reigns, Satan who is said to be 'the god of this eon' (2Cor. 4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1Cor. 15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
In due time, He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom. 8:18-23)."
Quote from: ed on January 24, 2014, 05:27:14 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 23, 2014, 04:21:51 PM
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible.
How so? :dontknow:
IN that it reveals the last and finall state of mankind, all the adversaries won to Christ, Death and sin vanquished, God as ALL IN ALL :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 24, 2014, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: ed on January 24, 2014, 05:27:14 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 23, 2014, 04:21:51 PM
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible.
How so? :dontknow:
IN that it reveals the last and finall state of mankind, all the adversaries won to Christ, Death and sin vanquished, God as ALL IN ALL :o)
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
Good morning that thank you.
:thumbsup:
I'm impressed with the words of the wrath of the Lamb. At what is the Lamb wrathful? Doctrine that leads to sin. What does the Lamb kill with the word of His mouth? Doctrine that leads to sin. We need a good fire!
I wonder, just musing.
There are two resurrections spoken of clearly in Rev. 20
The first, imo, is for the faithfull of all the ages until the end of this age.
The second , again, imo, is for all the rest of the dead who ever died in any age up until the end of the millenium spoke of in Rev 20 also.
Therefore (if you believe it as historical prophecy), those who are cast into the lake of fire have already been resurrected at that point. In the lake of fire, which we know little about specifically, the resurrected who are in need of that purging, will find all that is of death, all that opposes God's love, consumed, in a process that involves the light of God(God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all) bringing every hidden thing to light (1 Cor 4:5, Matthew 10:26, Eph 5:13). We who are in the kingdom of God now are pressing into the light, and the darkness is dwindling in and around us as the day star arises in our hearts.
"Awake O Sleeper, Arise from the dead, and the light of Christ will shine upon you!"
IMO, there will be a transition through the lake of fire and at the end of it there will be no more time,at least not as we know it now. When any who are in it hav passed through it, Death will have been SWALLOWED UP BY IMMORTALITY and ALL WILL BE VIVIFIED in the ALL IN ALL. All darkness will hav been brought to the light and EVAPORATED in the presence of the one whose face is as the sun shing in its stregth and whose eyes are as flames of fire. There will be only the totality of light, life and love and the fire will only shine and reflect glory, because there is nothing left to be consumed because the whole creation will have been brought into the THE NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.
BEHOLD(see, perceive, comprehend,be illuminated within) I am making ALL THINGS NEW.
#489 - OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – DR. JACK JACOBSON
"If the concept of universal restoration seems to be a modern idea, it's only because the understanding of this glorious plan of God is new to our modern minds. Universal restoration, in fact, is a truth one taught to and received by most of the saints of antiquity. The modern church has become blinded to the fact of universal restoration as given in the scriptures, but this is not a blindness that was shared by the early church."
This introduction is followed by quotes by many UR church leaders during the first six centuries of the Christian church.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 26, 2014, 09:31:45 AM
I wonder, just musing.
There are two resurrections spoken of clearly in Rev. 20
The first, imo, is for the faithfull of all the ages until the end of this age.
The second , again, imo, is for all the rest of the dead who ever died in any age up until the end of the millenium spoke of in Rev 20 also.
Therefore (if you believe it as historical prophecy), those who are cast into the lake of fire have already been resurrected at that point. In the lake of fire, which we know little about specifically, the resurrected who are in need of that purging, will find all that is of death, all that opposes God's love, consumed, in a process that involves the light of God(God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all) bringing every hidden thing to light (1 Cor 4:5, Matthew 10:26, Eph 5:13). We who are in the kingdom of God now are pressing into the light, and the darkness is dwindling in and around us as the day star arises in our hearts.
"Awake O Sleeper, Arise from the dead, and the light of Christ will shine upon you!"
IMO, there will be a transition through the lake of fire and at the end of it there will be no more time,at least not as we know it now. When any who are in it hav passed through it, Death will have been SWALLOWED UP BY IMMORTALITY and ALL WILL BE VIVIFIED in the ALL IN ALL. All darkness will hav been brought to the light and EVAPORATED in the presence of the one whose face is as the sun shing in its stregth and whose eyes are as flames of fire. There will be only the totality of light, life and love and the fire will only shine and reflect glory, because there is nothing left to be consumed because the whole creation will have been brought into the THE NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.
BEHOLD(see, perceive, comprehend,be illuminated within) I am making ALL THINGS NEW.
Oh John ,
I just love what you wrote here , and thats so much my own faith in Gods perfect plan
these resurrections to me...speak more of His snctification process then anything else....
we are told He shall baptize with Holy spirit and fire.
Happy and Holy[sanctified] are those who partake of the first resurrection....to me these
speak of the partakers of the Holy spirit in this life and are thus sanctified before rising/up-
ward call.
all men receive the free gift of righteousness through Christ work on the cross.....thus the
secound resurrection...the resurrection of the righteous AND wicked..is men[free gift of
righteousness] and the wicked[means not sanctified or holy until He does this for them]
for they are a mix which He must seperate and sanctify that they also be [w]holy
thus when they receive the free gift of the Holy spirit it is as through the cloven[seperation]
tongues of fire that removes the unclean spirits from the resurrected man.see Acts 28;5
This man must be a murderer;for though he escaped from the sea,justice has not allowed
him to live..but Paul shook the snake off of his hand and suffered no harm. Mark 9;26..the spirit
that often throws into the fire or water to kill[death]...the spirit shreiked,convulsed him vilently
and come out. the boy looked so much like a corpse that many said 'he's dead" this the
'harmed" part of the secound death.........this where death thrown into lof..so that those
who are 'mix' of righteous/wicked are seperated/cleansed made whole and sanctified.
Paul was sanctified by Holy spirit and suffered no 'harm'..due to repentance receiving Holy
spirit and Jesus Christ....and shook that serpent off his hand. If you can do anything take pity
on us and help! help me overcome my unbeleif! And He does.
we know that the vessels of the temple are cleansed with fire and water[and also that
what can not abide the fire is cleansed with water and scour[g]ed... what can abide it is
cleansed by fire....... any such wicked unclean spirits that will not let go[let my people go
that they may offer an acceptable sacrifice to me[holy] will try and have the man they haave
seized..killed in the lof with them....but whatever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven...
and Jesus Christ will and does such things for men...those that are set free from such things
shall be free indeed. and though it seem impossible with men[His disciples unable to cast it
out] nothing is impossible with God............
so men that 'die' in their sins in this world. without beleif without hearing,without
confessing with the mouth[deaf/mute spirit].are not without remedy.
you whom I have upheld since you were conceived,and have carried since your birth.
Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he,who sustains you.
I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.
To whom will you compare me and count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we
may be compared?
Some pour out gold from their bags[purity/holiness] and weigh out silver[righteousness]
on the scale beam[beam in your eye..judging gold/silver..purity/righteousness scales that
must come off to see clearly...men as trees...cut down=sawdust, make the tree good/or make
the tree evil] thus once more Jesus puut His hands on the mans eyes[behold the hand/behold
the nail..I have engraven you on my palms]
they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god and they bow down and worship it. They lift it
to their shoulders and carry it; they set it up in it's place and there it stands. From that
spot it can not move[Not like the true God of heaven] Though one cries out to it,it does not
answer[not like the true God who will finish what He started..the restoration of all men]
it cannot save him from his troubles[tribulation..see tribulum/thresher that seperates]
I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like me. I make known the end
from the beginning,from ancient times what is still to come. I say,'My purpose will stand and
I will do all that I please."
The relationship between resurrection and sanctification is powerful.
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are the children of God, and what we will be does not yet appear. We know that when He appears we will be like HIm, for we will see Him as He is, and evryone who has this hope, purifies Himself, even as He also is pure."
Romans 4:4 ....who was declared the son of God with power by the resurrection of the dead according to the Spirit of holinesss Jesus Christ our Lord
#490 - WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX
"That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We've portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it's up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.
We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation 'is not of him that willeth' (any decision we make of ourselves), 'nor of him that runneth' (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
Glory!
Quote from: eaglesway on January 28, 2014, 04:03:10 AM
Glory!
:dsunny:
#491 - BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
"I CAME NOT TO JUDGE THE WORLD BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD" Jn. 12:47
"When I first began to believe in the reconciliation of the world, I fell on my knees and put my head on the floor and cried tears of joy. The revelation came to me in a flash, like lightning and immediately I received it as truth.
God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. 2Cor.5:19.
All will be judged then reconciled back to God so that He will be All in all.
God is a consuming fire and will burn out all the dross from everyone."
So encouraging to read from all these witnesses to the euagellion(good news) of God's eudokia(good intention) towards all mankind. :o)
#492 - MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
"As an escape from the doctrine of eternal torment, I at first embraced the doctrine of annihilation for the wicked, and for a little while tried to comfort myself with the belief that this life ended all for them. But the more I thought of it, the more it seemed to me that it would be a confession of serious failure on the part of the Creator, if He could find no way out of the problem of His creation, but to annihilate the creatures whom He had created.
One day a revelation came to me that vindicated God, and settled the whole problem forever. I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that 'as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.' As was the first, even so was the second. The 'all' in one case could not in fairness mean less than the all in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease. The salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw this that day on the tram-car on Market Street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it -- but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had a questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed -- somewhere and somehow God was going to make everything right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever."
A beautiful testimony :HeartThrob:
#493 - WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
"The inspired scriptures never speak of eternity. They describe nothing as eternal. They contain no term which itself bears our time sense of everlasting. As eternity is not a subject of revelation, our present object is to discover how and when this unscriptural term gained entrance into theology, with most disastrous results.
It may be stated, without fear of contradiction, that the more one explores into the early centuries of Christendom, the clearer does it become that a corrupt theology was alone responsible for displacing the teaching regarding the eons by a dogma respecting 'eternity.'"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
#494 - MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe.
It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."
God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history.
The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. (1Kings 8:6 literal translation instead of the most holy place.) They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages (mistranslated forever and ever) are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time.
It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."
#495 - TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
Do you find your heart tardy to believe that God will have all mankind to be saved?" 1Tim. 2:4
"Those who would not yield an inch from the position that all have sinned means all, do not hesitate to rob God of His all in all shall be justified, all shall be reconciled, all shall be vivified, that God may be All in all.
This is God's grand goal: all saved, all justified, all reconciled, all vivified, that God may be All in all. This goal will see fruition when the eons have run their course. Do not confuse God's goal with His process."
#496 - MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
"The world hates God because of the picture Christianity has painted of Him. The doctrine of eternal torment is a teaching of demons; a myth. It infects the world via a series of false expressions, printed onto tracts and forced into sermons. Those who espouse and teach it are in full heed of deceiving spirits, though they know it not.
There must be a remedy, and there is. 2Timothy 2:15, 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.'
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying."
Origin of Endless Punishment
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
A Snippet a day keeps deception at bay ;o)
wowow that is a fantastic resource in that link, and will go great on my hellisamyth.com website
A very good, no great work by Mr. Thayer :dsunny:
A hardy thank you from me as well.
I have come to rely on your snippets.
:banana:
Glad y'all like my snippets. Makes me feel really good. :thumbsup:
#497 - THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"Without God's Spirit the 'depths of God' remain unknown. What an essential factor this is in the believer's quest!
When God's immense love evokes us to a higher plain, nothing will thwart our yielding to Him. Our past illusions must fade away with all of its façade in order that a more accurate realization of God and the depths of God can be grasped in prelude to the ultimate retrieving of all to God through Christ so He truly will be All in everyone. He shall be 'All in all' in the total kaleidoscope envelope of LOVE. This is the Spirit-Reality Whom we should unabatedly proclaim to those who have ears to hear."
#498 - NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"It is not a matter of if, only a matter of when each individual will respond to the irresistible call of God's love – a love filled with such peace and calmness that no one will be able to withstand its comfort indefinitely.
The power of God's love will attract like a magnet EVERYONE to their safe consolation within the confines of reconciliation. This, my dear friends is what 'God being All in all' is all about. The happy tidings are that none will be eternally lost or destroyed.
When the Holy Spirit's vision arrives within us, then and only then will we be able to grasp the fact that God's love does not contain the words 'eternally lost or destroyed' in its vocabulary."
#499 - SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
"Annihilation is only one step from its false associate 'eternal torment.' When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair comes showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
EDITOR'S ADDITION:
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED? - chapters three and four
(If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
and
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
#500 - A snippet from 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
#501 - 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
INTRODUCTION: "The Scriptures analyzed in this book declare that much more was accomplished by Christ than traditionally taught. May your eyes be enlightened to see the joy that Jesus saw as He hung on the tree of crucifixion. May the traditions of the elders fall as scales from your eyes to see the full magnitude of the victory of Jesus Christ! When they do, your Bible will appear to be a brand new book, full of the power of God's love to be victorious over all things."
#502 - A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
" 'For we must needs die, and are as water spilt upon the ground which cannot be gathered up again, yet doth God devise means that His banished be not expelled from Him' (2Sam.14:14). The entire passage from 2Sam.14:1-21 shows that no matter how far one may stray from the Lord and undergo internal banishment from a sense of acceptance, nevertheless, our merciful Lord God Himself has devised means whereby His banished ones would not be expelled forever from Him. 'For out of Him, and through Him, and for Him are all. To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' (Rom. 11:36). 'For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.' (Rom. 11:32 CLNT)."
#503 - THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
"May we get a glimpse of Christ's wondrous Person as we peer into Sacred Writ. As we go back before the ages of time, through the eons of the Scriptures, forward to the grand finale, to the consummation of the ages, to that day when total reconciliation is completed and eternity continues.
'every knee bowing, celestial
and terrestrial and subterranean,
and every tongue acclaiming that
Jesus Christ is Lord, for the
glory of the Father'
God would receive no glory merely to see the unbelievers agree that Jesus is Lord, but too late, thus going off to destruction. Nay! The blood of the cross will prevail in every situation, eliminating all sins. What august glory this will bring to the Father as every last one of His creatures acclaim His beloved Son as their Lord!"
#504 - JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained for everyone through its agency. In the brilliant glory of His ultimate the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power and wisdom and love.
During the final eons every creature in the heavens and on the earth and under the earth will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them, and every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Thus will all ultimately be justified."
If my lawlessness, in the face of my recognition of His good will towards me, as demonstrated in the sacrificial love of Jesus the Anointed One, has taught me my need for God and His grace(Rom 7), is leading to my transformation by that very grace, why would I question His ability to do the same for all in the age, or ages to come.
What I do not understand has not bound me, because it is His kindness that has led me to glorify Him. Eventually this kindness will become apparent to all, and all will bow the knee and give glory to God through Jesus, who is gathering all into one- also by that grace.
"Behold, I am making all things new."
"Of my own self, I can do nothing."
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 24, 2014, 01:23:00 AM
If my lawlessness, in the face of my recognition of His good will towards me, as demonstrated in the sacrificial love of Jesus the Anointed One, has taught me my need for God and His grace(Rom 7), is leading to my transformation by that very grace, why would I question His ability to do the same for all in the age, or ages to come.
What I do not understand has not bound me, because it is His kindness that has led me to glorify Him. Eventually this kindness will become apparent to all, and all will bow the knee and give glory to God through Jesus, who is gathering all into one- also by that grace.
"Behold, I am making all things new."
"Of my own self, I can do nothing."
:thumbsup:
sown in weakness a natural body..raised in power a glorious celestial body.
#505 - THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
"All men will be saved. But God isn't trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.
Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace. As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.
God not only 'allows' evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day."
#506 - THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
"The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free. Now this word 'destroy' does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect. When Christ took the keys from the prison keeper he, Satan, lost all power and authority. Christ made his office of no effect (Heb. 2:14&15).
While prophets of doom forecast calamity and destruction, the mind of Christ speaks and lights our world with the vision of universal restoration and reconciliation.
Paul told of a great victory where every knee would bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul did not say that only a small number will bow and confess, but he said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. And no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. What a glorious day that will be when every foot steps forth in the river of life up to the ankle, and from the ankle up to the knee. Every knee shall bow!
We are not an accident! We are not a mistake! No one has been overlooked by the Creator. All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.
When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river."
#507 - HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
"Who could have peace in the Christian hope while overwhelmed with the consciousness that many of those dearest to us are even right now shrieking hopelessly for watery relief from fiery torments? If any can be happy under such a burden of woe, are they hardened to insensibility; or do they really take their creed seriously?
Do believers in eternal hell torment really believe it, in their careless unconcern for the unsaved, or do they just give formal and thoughtless assent to their creeds. A sincere contemplation of such an infinite spectacle of woe as they present about hell is enough to unseat the reason of every believer of it if it weighs on his mind as it should if true. It would be appalling to know the number of all those who thought they had committed 'the unpardonable sin,' another erroneous tradition, and that they were hopelessly hell-bound because of it, and as a result became maniacs and suicides.
Yet in utter disregard of the frightful results of their hideous pagan ideas, the eternal hell torment evangelists would like to unchristianize those of us who dare to question their views by turning the searchlight of truth on their errors.
After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go? Not back to hell, for it then will be no more. Not back into death, for 'there shall be no more death.' Only one destiny will be possible for them, and that is the one declared in Is. 26:9, and that is correction through judgment."
#508 - LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
"The lake of fire will be abolished when it burns itself out because there is no evil left for it to feed upon, and the whole universe will throb with joy when the second death is abolished with the successful completion of the great and glorious work the Lord Jesus will bring to full fruition with the perfecting of all in the heavens and on earth.
What a prospect! God's purpose of the ages (Eph. 3:11) fulfilled in perfect accord with His irresistible will. 'And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, 'Unto Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for the ages of the ages (Rev. 5:13) – a grand Hallelujah Chorus echoing through the boundless universe and proclaiming that God IS Love."
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 03, 2014, 02:16:00 PM
"The lake of fire will be abolished when it burns itself out because there is no evil left for it to feed upon,
What a glorious perspective on an awesome and liberating truth!
#509 - UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16)."
EDITOR'S NOTE: Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
#510 - 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
#511 - ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
"This is a power packed and mind shaking question!!
To wit:
How can every creature which is in the heavens and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea and all that are in them (describing every living soul made by God) which includes everyone that has come from every dimension of life or death, or everything that came out from God ... say, Blessing and honor and glory and power unto the Lamb Jesus Christ the heart of the Father, if they are not all going to be enjoying Him as we who now believe are? Does this not describe and give witness to the day of the reconciliation of all unto God where they came from?"
God will not be defeated in the slightest --- for 'There are diversities of operations, but it is the same God Who worketh all in all (1Cor. 12:6).
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 07, 2014, 02:56:52 PM
#511 - ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
"This is a power packed and mind shaking question!!
To wit:
How can every creature which is in the heavens and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea and all that are in them (describing every living soul made by God) which includes everyone that has come from every dimension of life or death, or everything that came out from God ... say, Blessing and honor and glory and power unto the Lamb Jesus Christ the heart of the Father, if they are not all going to be enjoying Him as we who now believe are? Does this not describe and give witness to the day of the reconciliation of all unto God where they came from?"
God will not be defeated in the slightest --- for 'There are diversities of operations, but it is the same God Who worketh all in all (1Cor. 12:6).
Excellent. :HeartThrob:
#512 - THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.
#513 - THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
"When one looks at the first 500 years of Christianity, not one creed even hinted at "Eternal Torment;" not one creed denied "Universal Restoration;" no church council condemned "Universal Restoration."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
When one looks at the lives of those church leaders who brought the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" into the church, we find a long string of envyings, power plays, persecutions, character assassinations, book burnings, murders, and tortures. They became like the god they created – tormentors and murderers! They exchanged the truth for a lie and brought darkness to the world – the Dark Ages."
#514 - ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
This is a writing showing that the Doctrine of Eternal Death finds no support in the Greek or Hebrew texts. While the teaching makes the Christian God more loving and merciful than the Doctrine of Eternal Torment, there is a much more Scriptural way of proving that our Father's mercy extends far beyond "Eternal Death," or "Eternal Punishment."
It can be read on the internet here
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Thanks, Rodger. I really appreciate Gary and his wife so much.
#515 - THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE & GARY AMIRAULT
"Christian leaders have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is 'the inerrant' translation of the so-called original texts. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years, and there have been thousands of corrections!
This world needs to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Read the prophets and you will not find a place of eternal torment for the wicked. If the Creator loved us and created such a horrible place, He would surely have plastered the warning everywhere. The KJV has the phrase 'everlasting punishment' only once. Yet, when looking at those words in the Greek, even those two references turn out to be 'age-during correction.' Again we ask, if eternal torment be the horrible fate of most of mankind, why such a little warning?
The Scriptures tell us the mind of man cannot conceive the height, length, depth, and width of our Father's love for His creation. His ways are much higher than our in all areas, including His justice, love, and wisdom. He wounds, but like a doctor, to bring about healing. He says 'Vengeance is Mine' knowing only He can return good for evil, an innocent life for a guilty one. He overcomes His enemies with good and tells you to do the same. His love never fails. Believe it. It will never fail anyone, including you. You can now enter into your rest. 'For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth, of things in the heavens (Col. 1:20).
amen..........there is nothing 'hidden' that will not be revealed.
#516 - THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
"Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.
What the Holy Spirit mean by 'fire and brimstone' is 'divine purification,' or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.
Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be 'All in all.' When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, 'the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.' "
you know,when I think of 'each in his order' time and process of temporary exclusion...in His divine order...and then
inclusion also by His will in proper order. then the story of Ruth comes to mind. and the account of no maobite up to the
tenth generation to come into the assembly covenant of Israel.
when I ponder the story of Ruth...her marriage to an Israelite...her cleaving to Naomi..and returning with Naomi to Israel....
'your God will be my God' I can't help but see a parallel..of those formerly excluded gathered into inclusion at the
threshing floor. I can see the removal of the chafff[former sins that seperated from God's company] and the nakedness
of the spirit at the feet..requesting to be covered of His mantle[corner of His garment] and inclusion in covenant with the
kinsmen redeemer
there are many accounts in the scriptures of those formerly excluded.......for a time...then accepted and gathered in....
those scattered.....in a time of famine[of hearing the word of the Lord] return and begin 'gleaning' of the corners
of His feild......at the threshing floor..those who formerly were 'empty' are filled
#517 - OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
"God is a despot. Paul in Ephesians 1:11, speaks of 'the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.' Yes, God exercise a despotic sway over the whole universe, but we are thankful for this because He is Love. Though He will brook no opposition to the furtherance of His purpose, He is never a tyrant. When He inflicts evil upon any, it is always in order that good may follow. His sovereign will is the ultimate salvation and blessing of all, that He may be All in all.
For all creation in its need,
The future is engraved
In words of life, for all to read,
'In grace shall you be saved.'
Let every mental conflict cease,
Let every barrier fall,
For grace removes each bar to peace
Till Thou art All in all.
O God, how glorious is Thy grace!
How radiantly divine!
It stretches out its wide embrace,
To make all creatures Thine.
When God is All in all, the whole creation will have become His achievement, and every member will be a beneficiary of His OVERWHELMING GRACE."
#518 - THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
"Love conquers all, for it is the love of God that allows humanity to see its frailty that in the bitter dregs it may choose life. I thank the Lord that the plan of redemption wasn't a stop gap measure but a well thought out plan that in the fullness of time, all will have Christ as their head. Victory in Jesus!
Before creation there was no time. Since creation there has been time. But with the consummation of things and God becoming All in all, time will end, and sin, which is limited by time shall end. Yet, God and creation shall go on.
If God cannot surmount the evil in the world and turn it all into good, then there is a power equal and opposite to Him. But sin isn't eternal. The cross of Calvary isn't a 'hope so' move by God, but rather, a well conceived thought out solution to the problem of sin. There is an end to sin and to the death it causes. All shall be swallowed up into victory. Some, God has planned to accept Him now. Others, like Pharaoh, He hardens their heart. But being a righteous Judge He will show wrath on those who need it to cleanse them of their fallen nature.
The plan of God is such that His grace, that unmerited favor, will cause man and all of creation to be restored. Great was the joy of the father for the return of his son. How much more so will God be rejoicing at the restitution of all.
A father never beats a child to death for wrong, but corrects and loves regardless. Even so is our Heavenly Father. The mercy and love of God is to be so revealed that Jesus shall be All in all.
The purpose for the present is to save some. The purpose for the future is to save all. Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Even he who dies in sin shall be saved as by fire. Victorious grace covers a larger redemption than many would consider."
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 10, 2014, 04:44:34 PM
#476 - DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
"All of God's judgments are corrective measures that counteract, and also cooperate for the eventual good and reconciliation of all through Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world.
God never judges in vengeance for vengeance sake, but only for ultimate rehabilitation. He has His perfect timing to bring forth ultimate good for all. Thus many divine judgments are postponed until iniquity comes to the full (Gen. 15:16).
All must experience human failure and total depravity to the full in order to appreciate salvation when God eventually sets all things right throughout the whole universe (Isa. 9:26; and Phil. 2:10,11).
re: evils of fracking, Fukushima, etc., etc., etc., (current days iniquities??)
Scriptures that come to mind:
Gen 15:16 And in the fourth generation they [your descendants] shall come back here to [to Canaan] again, FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE AMORITES IS NOT YET FULL AND COMPLETE.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.
I think it's helpful to keep oneself informed about such issues as fracking, Fukushima, etc., for me, it's an opportunity to again go before the Lord, place my trust in Him, and not look to man to fix man. The center verse of the entire Bible:
Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man.
The shortest chapter in entire Bible:
Psalm 117:1-2
O praise the Lord, ALL ye nations: praise Him, ALL ye people.
FOR HIS MERCIFUL KINDNESS IS GREAT TOWARD US: AND THE TRUTH OF THE LORD ENDURETH FOR EVER. PRAISE YE THE LORD.
Quote from: anna274 on March 15, 2014, 09:02:02 PM
re: evils of fracking, Fukushima, etc., etc., etc., (current days iniquities??)
Scriptures that come to mind:
Gen 15:16 And in the fourth generation they [your descendants] shall come back here to [to Canaan] again, FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE AMORITES IS NOT YET FULL AND COMPLETE.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.
I think it's helpful to keep oneself informed about such issues as fracking, Fukushima, etc., for me, it's an opportunity to again go before the Lord, place my trust in Him, and not look to man to fix man. The center verse of the entire Bible:
Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man.
The shortest chapter in entire Bible:
Psalm 117:1-2
O praise the Lord, ALL ye nations: praise Him, ALL ye people.
FOR HIS MERCIFUL KINDNESS IS GREAT TOWARD US: AND THE TRUTH OF THE LORD ENDURETH FOR EVER. PRAISE YE THE LORD.
Beautiful and True
#519 - JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
#520 - THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Heb. 11:3 should read, 'Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God.' The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:16 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, hath He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.' (Alexander Thompson's translation)
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons, all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20). Only as one sees the plan of the ages does he see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race. When you perceive the truth concerning the ages your Bible will become a new and more wonderful Book than you knew you had."
#521 - THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 18, 2014, 01:52:23 PM
#521 - THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
Woah... 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church'....!
I am learning so much.
#522 - WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
"May some poor soul whose loved one has died without receiving Christ as their Saviour, find a measure of relief in the assurance that they are neither now, nor ever shall be, tortured endlessly and consciously in an inferno of fire wrongly described as the eternal abode of the dammed. Instead, they will be deprived of life until the lake of fire which is the second death no longer exists."
#523 - MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
"The teaching of the ultimate exaltation of Jesus Christ and the ultimate reconciliation of all men unto Him, make God's judgments consistent with His plan of creation. God's judgments become understandable, purposeful, and constructive without violating any aspect of justice, truth, or mercy. If just one person were condemned to eternal torment, then God's purpose in creation would have been defeated. God's judgments are redemptive.
The end result of God's judgments is, 'That in the Name of Jesus every knee will bow, celestial, terrestrial, and subterranean, and every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10,11). God planned for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, both in the heavens, and on earth (Eph. 1:10). Amplified Bible
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 20, 2014, 02:23:22 PM
#523 - MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
"The teaching of the ultimate exaltation of Jesus Christ and the ultimate reconciliation of all men unto Him, make God's judgments consistent with His plan of creation. God's judgments become understandable, purposeful, and constructive without violating any aspect of justice, truth, or mercy. If just one person were condemned to eternal torment, then God's purpose in creation would have been defeated. God's judgments are redemptive.
The end result of God's judgments is, 'That in the Name of Jesus every knee will bow, celestial, terrestrial, and subterranean, and every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10,11). God planned for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, both in the heavens, and on earth (Eph. 1:10). Amplified Bible
Amen! :dsunny: :cloud9:
#524 - ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
"Eternity and its synonyms are grievous mistranslations of Hebrew and Greek words. Both the Old and the New Testament misuses indicate a biased mind-set which hides God's true nature and purpose. Based upon decisions made in this life on earth, it is supposed that the vast multitudes that miss heaven enter an eternal hell of burning torment and anguish.
The uniform translation of aion and its adjective form aionios solves many inconsistencies in Scripture study. Jesus came to give life eonian, a quality of relationship with the Father through Himself, a life that is only the earnest of much more to come.
The most shameful consequences of this error are the grotesque images which Christianity projects of God, Who is really so loving, wise, and powerful. God's love nature corresponds with His purpose. His wisdom and majesty dominate the ages through which all mankind will be drawn to God's goal of creating man in His own image, 'that God may be All in all' (1Cor. 15:28).
#525 - JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF16 CHAPTERS) J. PRESTON EBY
A great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid Biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
Internet version
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Also watch the testimony video of J. Preston Eby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
#526 – FUNDAMENTALS OR BASIS OF BELIEF – Thomas Griffith
"We will get good out of evil. Our gracious Educator does evolve for us out of corruption, temptation and sin, new purposes, new skill, new triumphs.
Beyond the overruling of intermediate evil into subserviency to a higher good, what has been superinduced as a transition state of things is therefore seen to be necessary only for a time. It will pass away with the functions which it is made to fulfill. It will at last be superseded by the highest good for everyone."
#527 – DOOMED TO BE SAVED – Frances Power Cobbe
"I think if we were not caught in the meshes of that wretched Augustinian scheme of theology which postulates eternal hell to compel us to accept it, -- I think, I say, if it were not for this theology, all Christendom must have long ago come to see, that, at the very least, God feels towards a sinner as a saint would do, and not as a man less good, or wise, or merciful.
We do not think man's evil can, in the long run of the ages, finally outspeed God's ever-pursuing mercy. He must overtake us sooner or later. We may temporarily choose evil rather than good, and vileness instead of nobleness, and be ungrateful and sinful. But God will get the better of us at last."
#528 - This is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful. It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :-)
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid.
#529 – A POEM BY A.G. CAMPBELL
I deem they greatly err, who hold
That He Who made the human soul,
Will not its destinies control
For final good – but, wrathful, fold
It in the shrouds of hopeless woe,
Of deathless gloom, of quenchless fire,
The creatures of His vengeful ire,
Whence it can never ransom know.
So, in the world to come, His love
Shall freely unto all abound;
Even prisoners in the depths profound
Shall see His kind face beam above
Their dreary cells, and hear His voice,
Unheeded once, in mercy call, --
"Turn, turn to Me and live!" and all
Shall hear the summons and rejoice.
Lost men, lost angels, shall return, --
Satan himself be purified;
Death shall be conquered in his pride,
And hell's fierce fires shall cease to burn.
Then shall our God be All in all –
His love bear universal sway;
His love preserves all souls for aye,
Nor shall the weakest fear a fall.
:cloud9:
#530 – FROM A SERMON ON UNIVERSALISM – Stopford A. Brooke
"That Christ should have descended to assume the nature of all men, only to cast them away as refuse to be burned, does so contradict His revelation that it is no wonder that the idea of everlasting damnation should have destroyed men's belief.
No, the earthly dead will move on, a mighty stream to mingle in the ocean of the righteousness of God, on that far off but certain day when God will be All in all."
#531 – ENIGMAS OF LIFE, POSTSCRIPTUM – W.R. GREG
"Given a hell of torment and despair for millions of our friends and fellow men, can the good enjoy heaven except by becoming bad, -- miraculously changed and changed deplorably for the worst. In a word, putting on, along with the white garments of the redeemed, a coldness and hardness of heart? Does not this simple reflection suffice to disperse into thin air the current notions of a world of everlasting pain?"
#532 – THE SHAKING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH – Charles Kingsley
"We do not deny that the wages of sin is death. We do not deny the necessity and certainty of punishment. Only tell us not that it must be endless, and thereby destroy its whole purpose. We too believe in an eternal fire, but we believe its existence to be not a curse but a blessing. That fire is God Himself Who taketh away the sins of the world, and of Whom it is therefore written, 'Our God is a consuming fire."
Awesome!!!
#533 – POEM BY HELEN BRONTE
There lives within my heart,
A hope long nursed by me;
And should its cheering ray depart,
How dark my soul would be.
That as in Adam all have died,
In Christ shall all men live;
And ever round His throne abide
Eternal praise to give.
That even the wicked shall at last
Be fitted for the skies;
And when their dreadful doom is past
To light and life arise.
I ask not how remote the day,
Nor what the sinner's woe,
Before their dross is purged away;
Enough for me to know,
That when the cup of wrath is drained,
The metal purified,
They'll cling to what they once disdained
And live by Him Who died.
Thank you Rodger for sharing this truly beautiful, edifying, God-glorifying poem...it will be printed and placed on my fridge for continued meditation on the glorious gospel of Christ...
Upon rereading of this lovely poem, I decided to print many copies to be used as an enclosure with my Spring letter to family and friends and former/current fellowshippers.
Quote from: anna274 on April 08, 2014, 03:21:59 PM
Thank you Rodger for sharing this truly beautiful, edifying, God-glorifying poem...it will be printed and placed on my fridge for continued meditation on the glorious gospel of Christ...
Upon rereading of this lovely poem, I decided to print many copies to be used as an enclosure with my Spring letter to family and friends and former/current fellowshippers.
You are very welcome Anna. :dsunny:
#534 - DISPUTED POINTS – George Dawson
"Take the doctrine in which most of you were brought up – that every man who is not saved will go to hell, and that hell is a constant fire whereunto a man must be condemned forever.
I am told this is in the Scriptures. I can't find it; but if it were there I would not believe it. I was told that it was so, and I have no doubt I said it was so. But now I disbelieve it. If this is backsliding, I will backslide.
Well, how came we ever to doubt this horrific doctrine? Not that any commentator with marvelous exegesis showed us that the text did not mean that; -- for I am but little interested in the quibble that the fire burns forever, but that the thing put into the fire burn only so long as it is capable of burning.
What has put hell fire out is a better understanding of God, and a fuller comprehension of the quality of God's love. The love of God conquers the assertion of orthodoxy."
#535 – YUSEF – J. Ross Browne
"Oh, ye who are wrapped in the selfishness of a single idea! – ye who bode eternal destruction to others! Look out upon the world and learn that there are millions of human hearts as sincere and devoted as yours, who perceive a divine power great and good and merciful enough to save all, even to the weakest and most benighted."
#536 – BODY AND MIND – George Moore
"Every soul that is out of keeping with divine order must remain, in the license of a perverse will, forever vile, until restored to the dominion of truth by the attractiveness of light, and the miseries of darkness."
#537 – CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe."
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 25, 2014, 04:18:35 PM
#537 – CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe."
Lovely words. Some would consider them fanciful or naive. I hear in them the glory of God!
#538 – CHILDHOOD OF THE WORLD – Edward Clodd
"You would think your father very hard and cruel if he loaded you with good things, and sent your brothers and sisters to some homeless spot to live uncared for and unloved. And yet that is exactly what some people say that God does. They have spoken of Him Who has given life to every man, woman and child as staying near only a few of His creatures, and leaving the rest to care for themselves.
Believe that He who is called our Father is better, more just, more loving, than the best fathers can be."
#539 – A BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.
Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.
How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?
Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."
the saints were overcome,as shown in Daniel. all were bound up in disobedience in order that He have mercy on all.
thus Israel/law covenant,and church age...all constituted sinners.....that salvation come by GRACE TO ALL
the Kingdom of Heaven..is like..a woman that took leavening and hid it in 3 measures of flour..until all measures were leavened.
#540 – IN MEMORIUM – Alfred Tennyson
"Oh, yes, we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill,
To pangs of nature, sins of will,
Defects of doubt, and taints of blood.
That nothing walks with aimless feet,
That not one life shall be destroyed,
Or cast as rubbish to the void,
When God hath made the pile complete:
Behold! We know not anything;
I can but trust that good shall fall
At last – far off – at last to all,
And every Winter change to Spring."
#541 – ONE RELIGION; MANY CREEDS – Ross Winans
"Our belief is that man, being governed and trained through time, a good and happy result must ensue to each individual. The idea of hell fire and eternal torment, when properly considered, is an idea that is alike blasphemous and illogical.
God has ordained that every man shall sooner or later, recognize and appreciate His blessings. Nothing else is consistent with His determinate will. God is a God of infinite goodness, not of vengeance; to be loved; to be worshiped for love's sake, not through fear of everlasting punishment. We believe that every man will eventually love Him, and strive more and more to serve Him."
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 02, 2014, 03:07:59 PM
#541 – ONE RELIGION; MANY CREEDS – Ross Winans
"Our belief is that man, being governed and trained through time, a good and happy result must ensue to each individual. The idea of hell fire and eternal torment, when properly considered, is an idea that is alike blasphemous and illogical.
God has ordained that every man shall sooner or later, recognize and appreciate His blessings. Nothing else is consistent with His determinate will. God is a God of infinite goodness, not of vengeance; to be loved; to be worshiped for love's sake, not through fear of everlasting punishment. We believe that every man will eventually love Him, and strive more and more to serve Him."
Thank you Rodger for these daily reminders of God's great love for ALL. I'm always encouraged to pray in faith, to praise in love, to thank in joy that God will be all in all.
My pleasure joy :dsunny:
#542 – THE STRANGER IN LOWELL – John Greenleaf Whittier
"Through discords of sin and sorrow, pain and wrong, truth rises, a deathless melody whose notes of wailing are hereafter to be changed to those of triumph as they blend with the great harmony of a reconciled universe."
#543 – THE UNITY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT – John A.D. Mauricq
"In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other."
So simple, so beautiful, so true.
#544 – DISSERTATIONS ON THE FINAL STATE OF MANKIND – Thomas Newton
"Nothing can be more contrary to the divine nature and attributes, than for a God all wise, all-good, all-powerful, and all-perfect, to bestow existence on any being Who He foreknows must terminate in wretchedness and misery without respite of end. His goodness could never give birth to any one being, and much less to numberless beings whose end He foresaw would be irretrievable misery; nor could even His justice inflict everlasting punishment.
God made all His creatures finally to be happy; He could never make any whose end He foreknew would be misery everlasting. God is love; infinite benevolence alone prompted Him to action, and infinite benevolence combined with unerring wisdom, and supported by irresistible power, will infallibly accomplish its purpose in the best possible manner."
#545 – THE TRUE STORY OF MY LIFE – Hans Christian Andersen
"I received gladly, both with feeling and understanding, the doctrine that God is love. Everything which opposes this –- a burning hell, therefore, whose fire endures forever –- I could not recognize."
#546 – LIFE – Thomas Guthrie
"St. John uses a very broad expression. 'Jesus Christ,' he says, 'is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' 'The whole world. Ah,' some would say, 'that is dangerous language.' It is God's language – John speaking as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. It throws a zone of mercy around the world. Perish the thought that would narrow it by a hand's breadth."
#547 – AUTOBIOGRAPHY – LEIGH HUNT
"Are God and His ways to be represented as something so different from the best attributes of humanity? If an angel were to tell me to believe in eternal punishment I would not do it; for it would better become me to believe the angel a delusion, than God monstrous; and we make Him monstrous when we make Him the author of eternal punishment, though we may not have the courage to think so. For God's sake, let us have piety enough to believe Him better."
#548 – THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
#549 – THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 15, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
#549 – THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
:thumbsup: Amen!! what a great one to read! ...and not as though the human race falling out of purity and happiness was some mistake made by God.. some unforeseen thing occurring! :LH:
After all, it was He, and He alone who endowed thinking ability (which includes choice, albeit limited of course) and with full determination, endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. Since it does include choice, the ability to choose, it was a real Pandora's box!! But what was His other option? No rational creatures? ever?
Oh yes... the "God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good.."
He is utter Perfection. Perfect makes no mistakes. Loses nothing.
...and just think.. because of "sin and death" and all suffering, sin's result, all have suffered, yet He, being Life (what else would or could be??) suffers, lives through and experiences ALL sufferings which
ever occur!!
Why would He put Himself through all that?! Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm.. or robots.. but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Unbreakable because all, having
lived through all this, and then a long day of the examination and judging of all things, all history, etc, will fully understand good from evil (life from death) and the utter futility of life apart from God, will know that to turn from God can only ever result in a puff of self destructive smoke..
Without God, apocalyptic dust and ashes is all there is..
Sorry for rambling.. inspiring post/words!! :))
GREAT RAMBLINGS MARIE! :thumbsup:
#550 – POEM BY HOSEA BALLOU (1771-1852)
"In God's eternity
There shall a day arise,
When all the race of man shall be
With Jesus in the skies.
As night before the rays
Of morning flees away,
Sin shall retire before the blaze
Of God's eternal day.
As music fills the grove
When stormy clouds are past,
Sweet anthems of redeeming love
Shall all employ at last.
Redeemed from death and sin
Shall Adam's numerous race,
A ceaseless song of praise begin,
And shout redeeming grace."
#551 – In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson quotes Thomas Belsham (1750-1829).
"I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage, one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught.
We see the triumph of God's benevolence in restoring the dead transgressor to life; in visiting him with suffering in exact proportion to the greatness of his offences; and finally, in his ultimate purification from moral stain, and his restoration to virtue, to happiness, and to God. This clears up at once all the difficulties of divine dispensations, and the belief of it fills the pious and contemplative mind with unspeakable satisfaction and delight."
#552 – In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of John Prior Estlin (1747-1817).
"To a belief in the doctrine of the eternity of hell torments, I impute more absurdity, more misery, and more un-Christian conduct, than to all other false opinions put together. The effects of this doctrine, when a person applies it to himself, are gloom and despair, often terminating in mental derangement; when he applies it to others, pride, cruelty, hatred, and all the worst passions of human nature.
It certainly argues a greater degree of benevolence in the Governor of the world, after the punishment of His creatures, to restore them to His favor, than either to preserve them in misery, or to blot them out of existence.
The firm belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration, has afforded much consolation to myself during a large portion of my life; has rendered advanced years placid and serene, and enables me to contemplate death itself, notwithstanding its gloomy appearance, as one of the most essential blessings of the whole plan of Providence.
I would as a friend, advise everyone to take this subject into his most serious consideration. I would wish him to experience during the remainder of his life, all the happiness which results from the full persuasion of this delightful doctrine. I pray to God that others may experience that perpetual sunshine of the mind, that joy in the divine administration, that serenity through life, and that cheering prospect in the hour of death, which the belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration does so manifestly inspire."
It is always so encouraging to me to read these writings from men and women from the past and the present. Men and women with whom we have the sweetest fellowship within the fullest truth, the revelation of Jesus Christ, Savior of the whole world.
:cloud9: Amen. And what's amazing to me is how many of them there seems to have been, yet the seed of truth was nearly choked out. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 25, 2014, 05:53:51 AM
:cloud9: Amen. And what's amazing to me is how many of them there seems to have been, yet the seed of truth was nearly choked out. Blessings....
Amen! :iagree:
Well, they say the darkest hour is before the dawn :o)
:cloud9: Ain't it the truth.... :sigh:
#553 - In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Jung Stilling (1740-1817).
"Not a single soul will be lost. They will all – all be saved at last. The Holy Scriptures do not in one instance say the contrary. All the passages wherewith some are essaying to prove the infinity of hell torments, prove nothing further then that they shall continue an undefined time. The Hebrew word olam, and the Greek word aionios signify nowhere an infinite, but an indefinite length of time."
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 04, 2014, 01:35:44 PM
#553 - In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Jung Stilling (1740-1817).
"Not a single soul will be lost. They will all – all be saved at last. The Holy Scriptures do not in one instance say the contrary. All the passages wherewith some are essaying to prove the infinity of hell torments, prove nothing further then that they shall continue an undefined time. The Hebrew word olam, and the Greek word aionios signify nowhere an infinite, but an indefinite length of time."
good word :thumbsup: thanks
#554 – FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke
"And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures. The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb."
#555 – OBSERVATIONS ON MAN – Dr. David Hartley
"I thank God that He has at last brought me to a lively sense of His infinite goodness and mercy to all, and that I now see it in all His works, and in every page of His Word. It has taught me to love every man and to rejoice in the happiness which our Heavenly Father intends for all; and has dispersed all the gloomy and melancholy thoughts which arise from the apprehension of eternal misery for myself or friends.
How long, or how much God will punish wicked men, He has nowhere said, and therefore I cannot tell. But this I am sure of, that in judgment He will remember mercy; that He chastens only because He loves, and His tender mercies are over all His works. God will conduct the wicked through all the afflictions which He thinks fit to lay upon them for their good, with infinite tenderness and compassion."
#556 - In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of Olympiodorus (A.D. 550)
"Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons. The soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. The soul is punished for an eonian period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment its eon."
#557 – FUTURE LIFE - William Rounseville Alger
"Even the loathsome realm of darkness and torment shall be burnished and made part of the all-inclusive Paradise. All darkness, falsehood, and suffering, shall flee utterly away, and the whole universe be filled by the illumination of good spirits, blessed with fruitions of eternal delight."
#558 – THE DOCTRINE OF THE UNIVERSALISTS - Ulriucus Zuinglius
"I cannot believe that the Lord will cast away from Him nations whose only crime it is never to have heard of the gospel. No, let us abjure the rashness of setting bounds to the divine mercy."
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 10, 2014, 02:06:43 PM
#558 – THE DOCTRINE OF THE UNIVERSALISTS - Ulriucus Zuinglius
"I cannot believe that the Lord will cast away from Him nations whose only crime it is never to have heard of the gospel. No, let us abjure the rashness of setting bounds to the divine mercy."
:dsunny:
#559 – THE MYSTERY OF GOD – Gerard Winstanley
"Christ Jesus will deliver all mankind out of bondage. This I see to be a truth by testimony of Scripture, as God is pleased to teach me. But this mystery of God is not to be done all at once, but in several dispensations, some whereof are past, some are in being, and some are yet to come. The whole creation of mankind, which is God's work, shall be delivered from corruption, bondage, death, and pain. Mankind shall be by Christ reconciled to his Maker and be made one in spirit with Him; i.e. the curse shall be removed, and the power of it killed and consumed.
Truly this is according to the current of the whole Scriptures, that everyone shall be made of one heart and one spirit, i.e. that all shall be brought to obey the Father, walk humbly before Him, and live in peace and love in Him. This is the doctrine of Christ and the gospel. This is glad tidings to hear of. When you are made to enjoy this doctrine as yours, then you shall know what it is to know the Son, and what it is to be set free by the Son."
#560 – GOD'S LIGHT DECLARED IN MYSTERIES – Richard Coppin
"What is hell? Tis the separation from the enjoyment that the soul is capable of.
They shall not come forth till they have paid the utmost farthing, then shall they receive mercy. For know that God is good, and He will not punish a finite being infinitely."
Richard Coppin also wrote a work with the following long title ---
"OF THE TORMENTS OF HELL; THE FOUNDATION AND PILLARS THEREOF DISCOVERED, SEARCHED, SHAKEN AND REMOVED, WITH INFALLABLE PROOF THAT THERE IS NOT TO BE A PUNISHMENT AFTER THIS LIFE THAT SHALL NEVER END FOR ANYONE TO ENDURE"
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (all death including the second death which is the lake of fire). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note the wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
thank-you! ..death is destroyed by everyone being alive..! ..in logic, it's kind of like proof positive..!!
:dsunny: :banana:
#561 – Thomas Whittemore wrote, "Entirely upon the ground of the Scriptures, according to the views he entertained of them, Jeremy White wrote a work in defense of the doctrine of universal salvation called
THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS, OR A VINDICATION OF THE GOODNESS AND GRACE OF GOD, TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL."
Thomas Whittemore continues, "Jeremy White believed that all are to be restored, and that we have the assurance of this truth in the character of God Who is love, to which His very anger is subservient, and that the Scriptures assure us of His complete abounding grace over all sin and all death."
#562 – REASON AND PHILOSOPHY NO ENEMIES TO FAITH – William Whiston (translator of Josephus)
"The words used about the duration of torments in the New Testament, and all over the Septuagint, whence the language of the New Testament was taken, nowhere mean eternity. My reasons for that opinion I have long embraced, and intimated to the world against the eternity of hell torments."
#563 – Sir Isaac Newton, commenting on Scriptures in the book of Revelation wrote
"The degree and duration of the torments of degenerate and anti-Christian people should be no other than would be approved of by those angels who had ever labored for their salvation, and the Lamb Who has redeemed them with His most precious blood."
the words of Jesus Christ come to my mind....Jerualem..if you had only know the way to peace...
your house is desolate to you. gnashing of teeth..etc. I am reminded that as the army locusts
'torment' for 5 months..those not sealed of the holy spirit..God's great army He sent against them
[Roman?] that Jerusalem was also beseiged for 5 month's..............
wars and desolations will continue to the end..........
#564 – THE PHILOSPHICAL PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL AND REVEALED RELIGION – Andrew Michael Ramsay
"Eternal Providence desires, wills and employs continually all the means necessary to lead intelligent creatures to ultimate and supreme happiness. Almighty Power, wisdom and love cannot be eternally frustrated in His absolute and ultimate designs: therefore, God will at last pardon and re-establish in happiness all lapsed beings."
#565 – From a letter to Dr. Phillip Doddridge from Henry J. Barker:
"It is so. We read it in the book of God, that word and truth and gospel of our salvation, that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Yes Doddridge, it is so. The fruit of our Redeemer's sufferings and victory is the entire and eternal destruction of sin and death for everyone. And is it not a glorious destruction? A most blessed ruin? No enemy so formidable, no tyranny so bitter, no fetters so heavy and galling, no prison so dark and dismal, but they are vanquished and disarmed; the unerring dart is blunted and broken, the prison pulled down and razed. Our Lord is risen as the first fruits of them that slept."
#566 – THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – Paul Siegvolk
"As the centre of the whole Bible, whereat all its contents aim, is this, that by God in the beginning every thing was created very good; and that by Christ, the heavenly Wisdom, through Whom all things were created, all whatsoever is corrupted through sin, must at last be made good again. So may anyone whose eyes are opened to see clearly into this point, find a great many testimonies of this eternal truth, both in the books of the Old and New Testament."
#567 – THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF HAPPINESS - Gotthelf Samuel Steinbart
"God can never punish any, more than is necessary for his reformation. He cannot mistake in the choice of His means, and must always reach His end. He would appear less lovely if one creature should be forever miserable."
Indeed ! Thank you so much Rodger for all of these! :thumbsup:
You are very welcomw Eduard! :dsunny:
#568 – APOLOGY FOR SOCRATES - Johann August Eberhard
"Punishment being an evil, cannot be employed by a good being, unless for ends whose goodness is greater than the evils suffered, and which could not be obtained without inflicting them. God punishes not for the common good only, but also for the reformation of the sufferer; which being accomplished, punishment has no further use. It was designed to influence the love and practice of virtue; and when these are produced, it must give place to the happy consequences of amendment. Punishment therefore, being a benefit even to the sufferer, when properly viewed by him, must produce emotions of love and gratitude."
Thank you Rodger and how fitting to have this and gregory's post on the definition of punishment side by side! :thumbsup:
You are welcome too Lomarah :dsunny:
#569 – HISTORY OF THE CHURCH – John Le Clerc
"Christ's judgment will be conducted so that its justice shall be seen by all. For the great diversity of crimes there will be a proportional variety of punishments, whatever they consist in. Aionios may be considered an indefinite duration to which God hath placed no limits known to us, the word sometimes signifying an AGE."
#570 - INTRODUCTION OF JOHN'S GOSPEL – Samuel Crellius
"I am persuaded that all men will be finally saved by Jesus Christ, and delivered from the torments of hell."
#571 – PHILOSOPHICAL AND CRITICAL INQUIRIES CONCERNING CHRISTIANITY – Charles Bonnet
"It will be suitable to the spirit of the whole system of thought to set forth the pains of the wicked as aionion, or rather of an indefinite duration.
If in the Supreme Being, justice be goodness guided by wisdom; if Almighty Benevolence essentially requires the improvement of all intelligent beings; if punishments can be the means of leading to perfection; if there be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth; if there be much love where much has been forgiven: My heart leaps for joy – I am lost in admiration – what a wonderful chain of doctrines! The compassion of the Only Good is infinite – 'He desireth not the death of a sinner; but that he should turn from his wickedness and live.' God DESIRETH! – and shall He desire in vain?
The celestial heralds commissioned to celebrate by their hymns the glad tidings, were to instruct these shepherds in the object and the extent of the mission of Christ – on earth peace, good will towards men – GOOD WILL – not towards one single elected nation, but towards all the nations of the world. GOOD WILL – not to one single generation; but to every generation past and to come. The Benevolence of the Best and greatest of Beings includes all mankind, BECAUSE HE IS THE FATHER OF ALL."
#572 – THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – Thomas Whittimore
"In his book THOUGHTS ON DIVINE GOODNESS, Ferdinand Oliver Petitpierre taught that men are sinners, and God punishes them with severity; but this severity is dictated by goodness, and all the punishments God inflicts are declared to be for the sinner's good.
How opposed to this is the dreadful doctrine of eternal punishment, an error which grew up under a misconception of the meaning of the word rendered everlasting. God punishes always to reform, a fact which the author establishes with the most irresistible reasoning.
'These shall go away into eonian punishment' in which the word rendered punishment, he maintains, quoting the authority of Wittenbach, and Grotius, signifies a remedial, corrective discipline. The infinite authority of God is entirely founded on His goodness.
'Eternal' punishment is real evil, an infinite evil, in which everything conspires to exclude from God's plan of the ages."
#573 – ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all."
#574 - WHAT IS TRUTH? ABSOLUTE AND RELATIVE – Don Bast (published 2011)
"It has taken me a long time to unlearn the harmful instruction received over many years of indoctrination. It is God's word alone that is the trustworthy source of truth. The good news of the glory of our happy God (1Tim. 1:11) will expose the error and set us free from the spiritual bondage of man's creeds.
At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the 'potential' savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.
Someday the entire creation itself shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God, and is groaning and travailing, even now, in anticipation. We ourselves also, who have the first fruit of the spirit, we also are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body. For to expectation were we saved (Rom. 8:21-24).
Whatever trials and troubles come our way we are assured that it is not a sign of God's anger or even displeasure. The bond of love we share with God through His Son will never be broken. His desire to please us and be with us never changes. The love of God in our hearts is our steadfast anchor through all the storms of life."
#575 – MEMOIRS OF THE PRIVATE LIFE OF MY FATHER (James Necker) – by Baroness de Stael Holstien
"Eternal punishment! Power Almighty, can they who entertain such an idea know Thee? Eternal fire for those miserable creatures who have so many combats to sustain, and are armed with such feeble weapons! Power Almighty, Thy goodness preceded our birth, it still subsists, it will subsist after we are cut off by the hand of death."
#576 – LETTER OF RESOLUTION – clergyman George Rust
"To imagine that man, for his disposition, be kept in a never-to-be-ended doom of intolerable pain and anguish of body and mind, is to fix so harsh a note upon the mercy and equity of the Righteous Judge of all the world, that the same temper in a man we would execrate and abominate."
#577 – IN A LETTER FROM WILLIAM DUNCOMBE TO REV. SAMUEL SAY
"Vindictive justice, in the Deity, is, I own, no article in my creed. All punishment in the hands of an infinitely wise and good Being, I think, must be medicinal, and what we call chastisement."
#578 – POEM by Soame Jenyns (eighteenth century)
"Oh could mankind but make this truth their guide
And force the helm from prejudice and pride,
Were once these maxims fixed, that God's our friend,
Virtue our good, and happiness our end.
How soon must reason o'er the world prevail,
And error, fraud and superstition fail!
None would hereafter, then, with groundless fear,
Describe the Almighty cruel and severe
Predestinating some without pretense
To Heav'n, and some to hell for no offense;
Inflicting endless pains for transient crimes,
And fav'ring sects, or nations, men or climbs.
None would fierce zeal for piety mistake,
Or malice for whatever tenets sake,
Or think salvation to a few confined
And heav'n too narrow to contain mankind!"
Here! here! Absolutely! :dsunny:
#579 – DYER'S LIFE OF ROBINSON (eighteenth century)
In a letter to a friend, Robert Robinson wrote
"These believers in eternal torment are never shocked; they never blush; but affirm, 'This is wise and just, and kind; and it will be more glorious to God to save me, and damn them to endless and unavoidable woe, than it would be to share eternal life amongst us, and we few, though we hate one another here, shall be the happier for the damnation of the rest.'
Barbarians! What arrogant madness inspires you?
Poor * honies! -- servants that know not what their Lord doth.
O my soul, to such be not thou united.
Cursed be their anger, for it is cruel."
* (definition of "honies" – "the common man without proper revelation")
.......take up your positions around Babylon,all you who draw the bow,spare no arrows............Glory.....
I have seen the sons of God....on white horses this morning...the armies of heaven with Him..and
a sword coming outof His mouth.....
#580 – SERMONS by George Walker (eighteenth century)
"Some have thought that they could not clothe the future punishment of sin with sufficient terrors, and have given therefore, such exaggerated descriptions of them, both as to degree and duration, as in the opinion of many, can no way be reconciled with just sentiments of God.
The future punishment of the wicked does, in God's nature, suppose a capacity to be relieved of it, of gradually acquiring that better state of mind, and returning inclination towards virtue, which is the first and most desirable end of all punishment."
#581 – From a letter by John Henderson to Dr. Joseph Priestly (eighteenth century)
"God hath declared that His will is that all should be saved; therefore, the doctrine which forges a contrary will, falsifies supreme unchangeable truth.
Unceasing torments can answer no possible good to anyone in the universe. I conclude them to be neither the will or work of God. Could I suppose them, I must believe them to be inflicted by a wantonness or cruelty which words cannot express, nor heart conceive.
But let this be the comfort of every humble soul, that it hath pleased God to reconcile all things to Himself."
YAY YAHWEH!
Yeah I kinda liked too..... :Peace2:
#582 – LITERARY HOURS – Dr. Nathan Drake
"That sin and torture should be eternal can neither accord with the justice nor the goodness of Deity, and would appear to many devout Christians to convert the God they should adore and love, into a perfect demon. Fortunately, however, an opinion so repulsive is neither accordant with reason, nor the Scriptures."
BEautiful and True!
#583 – MISCELLANEOUS MAXIMS AND THOUGHTS – William Matthews
"In my childhood I found it impossible to fix my belief in the common notion of endless torments. I discovered there are plain arguments from reason and Scripture against that presumptuous doctrine of endless punishment, and I am now cheered with the rational, Scriptural, and as I think, glorious doctrine of the punishment of Divine justice being eventually subservient to a universal purification and fitness for heavenly habitations."
#584 – CHRIST GLORIFIED IN THE SALVATION AND RESTORATION OF ALL MANKIND – Francis Leicester
"But the Scripture which crowns all, and the last which I shall bring into proof, is Revelation 5:13. Here all creation is at Christ's feet, and that not with tears in their eyes, or petitions in their hands, not with crying or supplications or weeping because things were hidden and kept secret; but with joy in their hearts, and praises in their mouths; with melody on their lips, and hallelujahs on their tongues; with looks and countenances full of satisfaction and delight; and their faces, instead of gathering blackness, turning into paleness, or being covered with shame and confusion (as once was the case with some of them) they all now shine as the sun, replete with light, life and love, full of ecstasy and rapture. And that because the book written within and on the backside, and sealed with seven seals, is now opened and unsealed, and all things revealed and explained: their own cases particularly unfolded to their view, with all the ways and means their loving Saviour took to bring them to the situation they are now in, with other miracles of grace and love.
Where then there is universal praise and thanksgiving, universal harmony and love, and both heaven and earth sounding and resounding acclamations of joy and peace, there must be universal salvation."
:dsunny: :banana:
:trampoline:
#585 – Anna Letitia Barbuald, widow of Rev. Rochemont Barbuald wrote
"Rochemont's favorite doctrine was the final salvation of all the human race. He preached many sermons on this doctrine, which he defended both in the pulpit and in conversation with zeal and enthusiasm, which his congregation and his friends cannot but well remember."
Anna further commented, "I think it would be desirable to separate from religion that idea of gloom, which in this country (England) has but too generally accompanied it.
No one who embraces the common idea of future endless torments, that sins committed against an infinite Being do therefore deserve infinite punishment, no one, I will venture to assert, can believe such tenants, and have them often in his thoughts, and yet be cheerful.
Surely this age (the eighteenth century) which has demolished dungeons, rejected torture, and given so fair a prospect of abolishing the iniquity of the slave trade, cannot long retain among its articles of belief, the gloomy perplexities of Calvinism, and the heart-withering perspective of cruel and never-ending punishments."
#586 – AN ESSAY ON UNIVERSAL REDEMPTION; TENDING TO PROVE THAT THE GENERAL SENSE OF SCRIPTURE FAVORS THE OPINION OF THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND. – Rev. John Brown (eighteenth century)
In UNIVERSALIST MISCELLANY, commenting on that work, William Vidler wrote,
"He considers the genuine import of the words and phrases which are thought to prove the endless duration of punishment, which he contends do not necessarily bear that sense, and he touches upon the usual topics of argument by which universalism has been defended."
#587 – CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
#588 – About Dr. Joseph Priestly, Thomas Whittimore writes in THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM
"He believed that God's punishment will not be administered with the slightest tincture of revenge, but as a necessary means of qualifying the sinner for a better state of existence, which his present propensities disqualify him from enjoying. It is not the effect of anger in an irritated and avenging tyrant as the abominable tenets of orthodoxy would induce us to think of the Deity, but it is the medicine administered for our good by the Physician of our souls. Nor have we any reason to believe that it is greater in degree, or longer in duration than is necessary to produce the beneficial effect for which it is inflicted.
It was a constant source of great consolation to him that all things exist and move on harmoniously to produce universal good by Divine appointment and direction."
#589 – In an introduction to his translation of the New Testament, Nathaniel Scarlett wrote
"It has been a means of propagating the doctrine of endless damnation, which states that God will kindle a fire, and so constantly supply it with combustible matter, brimstone, by His all creating power, as to endure as long as He Himself shall exist; and that the subjects of future punishment, being raised incorruptible and indissoluble, shall for the same period endure burning in the lake of fire, God having no end in view but the endless misery of His creatures.
The editor hopes the translation he has given will help to remove so degrading an idea of God, Who is love; and although He will afflict the wicked in the lake of fire and brimstone; yet He has a great and grand design in so doing – punishment being a means to accomplish an end, and not the end itself."
EDITOR'S NOTE:
Fourteen other literally (not interpretively) translated Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Nathaniel Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
#590 – In a letter to a friend, James Edmands (nineteenth century) wrote
"The death of Christ ensured the restoration of all as a result. Men are now in the hands of a Mediator, Who deals with them as rational and accountable beings, and afflicts, whether here or hereafter, only in order to bring them to a deep sense of their own folly, and then restores them to His favor. Those who love and believe in Him in this life, are the first fruits, and those who do not will be the harvest or ingathering."
#591 – Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
"God's justice is, of itself, nothing but goodness; for it rewards the virtuous with blessings, and conduces to the improvement of the sinful. God's punishment is, in its operation, like medicine: it dissolves the hard heart, purges away the filth of uncleanness, and reduces the swellings of pride and haughtiness; thus restoring its subject to a sound and healthful state.
The necessary chastisements of the Great Judge, Who regards all with benignity, will make mankind grieve for their sins and imperfections, and advance them through the various states of discipline to perfection. Even God's wrath is full of benevolence towards the human race; for whose sake the Word of God was made man. The chastisements of God are always salutary and instructive, leading to amendment."
#592 – Origen Adamantius (185-254 A.D.)
"The end and consummation of the world will take place when all the wicked shall be subjected to punishments. How long each one shall suffer God only knows. The great variety of characters and different orders of beings which now exist, will, through the goodness of God, their subjection to Jesus Christ, and the unity of the Holy Spirit, be finally restored. As the sick must be cured by harsh medicines, so God administers for the purpose of amendation.
Our God is a consuming fire. He shall come as a refiner's fire, to purify rational nature from the alloy of wickedness. Rivers of fire are said to go forth before the face of God for the purpose of consuming whatever of evil is admixed with the soul. (Dan. 7:10).
We assert that the Word, Who is the Wisdom of God, shall bring together all intelligent creatures, and convert them to His own perfection. We deny that of all the vices of the soul, there is any which the supreme Word cannot cure. For the Word is more powerful than all the diseases of the soul; and He applies His remedies to each one, according to the pleasure of God. And the consummation of all things will be the extinction of sin.
This may not, indeed, take place with mankind in the present life, but be accomplished after they shall have been liberated from the body."
#593 – AGAINST THE MANICHEANS - Titus of Bostra (written 364 A.D)
"The abyss of hell is indeed the place of torment; but it is not eternal. The punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect upon transgressors; for they are inflicted, not to preserve them in their wickedness, but to make them cease from their wickedness."
Pain is in the body, and the dead have no body anymore. That is why the soul is only punished with regret and shame and such, and not physical burnings. There is simply those who will feel the heat of shame in their body when confronted with grievous evils they have done in life.
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 05, 2014, 02:22:32 PM
#592 – Origen Adamantius (185-254 A.D.)
"...
This may not, indeed, take place with mankind in the present life, but be accomplished after they shall have been liberated from the body."
I am in full agreement Sir.
According to the understanding that I have received, humankind shall be perfected because of the Glorious Christ of the Supreme God.
The Saviour is there to be called upon by those who do not now respond to His voice, even after the diseased soul has become beastly through self-inflicted sin.
He shall seek for the lost until it is found.
O Glorious Saviour,
though I wander far from Thee,
You know my weakness through and through,
and it is truth You never leave,
for You are bound to me
and I am bound to You,
eternally.
And so it is for all His children, as I understand it.
#594 – Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself."
#595 – Didymus, the blind, of Alexandria (313-398 A.D.)
"As mankind, by being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in the fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all, and the superior rational intelligences, the angels, will be restored to obedience by correction.
The blasphemy which shall not be forgiven in this age, nor in the age to come, may have been the blinded Jews; and their punishment, that which came upon them when they were delivered up to the Romans, and scattered over the whole earth. They will be pursued with vengeance from the Lord, not for a short period only, but for the whole future age, so that they shall be captives and fugitives, wandering among all nations, and possessing neither city nor country. Nevertheless, as God Who overthrew them is naturally kind and compassionate, He hath still reserved for them a space for repentance."
#596 – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
#597 – AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught ----
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued."
#598 – Theodorus of Mopsuestia (350-428 A.D.)
"All sins will be wiped away, because a true remission consists in the remission not of some sins but of all of them, as the blessed John said: "Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." This, however, will take place fully in the next world when after the resurrection we shall be immortal and when all the impulses of sins will cease. This is the reason why the blessed Paul also said: "If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised, and if Christ be not raised your faith is vain and ye are yet in your sins." He shows in this that in the future resurrection from the dead we are expecting complete abolition of sin.
"When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O grave, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?' The sting of death is sin, and the strength of the sin is the law." Then will truly take place the abolition of all these: of death, sin and corruption."
#599 - John Scottus Eriugena (810-877 A.D)
"There will be a conscious return (reditus) and merging of all beings into God. No souls (including the souls of animals) will be left out of this grand return. No one will be damned to suffer forever in hell or wither away into oblivion. There can only be a single destination for all: eternal salvation in God, the whole of humanity as in the image of God eventually to be restored to its divine exemplar. The object of punishment is not the will of the individual himself, but the misdirection of the will, so the result of punishment is the final purification and redemption of all. Even the devils shall be saved. The ultimate goal is deification, theosis or resumption into the divine being, when the individual soul is raised to a full knowledge of God, and where knowing and being are one."
If I may be so bold as to say so, this is possibly one of the closest concise eschatological summaries to my own individual understanding that I have read on Tentmaker - which is sweet music to the ears.
I would just add that, in my opinion, regardless of how much the child of God may progress in the knowledge of God throughout the Aeon which has no end [or the Life which is eternal], the fullness of the knowledge of the Supreme God shall always be more than is known. The child may become one with the Parent but can never become the Parent.
Peace and understanding.
Understanding and peace.
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 11, 2014, 02:55:45 PM
#598 – Theodorus of Mopsuestia (350-428 A.D.)
Then will truly take place the abolition of all these: of death, sin and corruption."
Amen! (to all of the post!) and the abolition of sin's result, mortality..
#600 – THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – Jeremiah White (1613-72 A.D)
"God's love demands that all punishment be reformative, Divine punishment is both good in itself, because everything that God does is good, and good for those being punished, because God loves His creation"
#601 – BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
"Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration, showing that Christian universalism, or ultimate reconciliation is the true Biblical doctrine."
Arguably, this is the most helpful link on the internet for people who want to believe that the Bible, (literally, not interpretively) translated, teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
#602 - AIÓN – AIÓNIOS – ("shown to denote limited duration") John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
"THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
#603 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Regarding the words translated "forever and ever."
"There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, for "the holies of the holies" - similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.
As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5."
#604 – A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
"Hell is a myth! Jesus Christ saves all mankind. That is the growing view of Bible scholars, translators and Bible publishers. Hell is leaving the pages of many Bible translations.
Bible scholars and church historians are acknowledging that early Christians were taught by Jesus and the apostles that ALL mankind would ultimately be saved. Discover how the heathen concept of Hell crept into the church and then on to the pages of many Bible translations.
Tentmaker Ministries website contains hundreds of articles and books explaining how this happened and its horrible effect on mankind. We also make available many other resources for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.
Experience your heavenly Father's unfailing love for you. Be set free from the fear that you or a loved one may be eternally damned to Hell."
Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries
#605 - UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
An excellent website expounding Christian Biblical Universal Salvation
#606 - Great snippets... Please let me share one as well: It's from a book titled Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoyevsky
"At the Last Judgment Christ will say to us, "Come, you also! Come, drunkards! Come, weaklings! Come, children of shame!" And he will say to us: "Vile beings, you who are in the image of the beast and bear his mark, but come all the same, you as well." And the wise and prudent will say, "Lord, why do you welcome them?" And he will say: "If I welcome them, you wise men, if I welcome them, you prudent men, it is because not one of them has ever been judged worthy." And he will stretch out his arms, and we will fall at his feet, and we will cry out sobbing, and then we will understand all, we will understand the Gospel of grace! Lord, your kingdom come!"— Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Also I want to include a quote from Heinrich Heines, a German poet and journalist who lived during the 18th and 19th century. I came across his name while I was reading the biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. What he says is a statement of complete faith and trust and the most succinct of all that God is about that I've ever found.
"God will save me, that's His Job"
Love you
Rick Coyne
:thumbsup: indeed,it is not the healthy who need a physician!
This service that
you perform,is not only supplying the needs of God's people,but is also over-
flowing in many expressions of thanks to God. Because of the service by
which you have proved yourselves,men will praise God,for the obedience that
accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ,and for your generosity
IN SHARING WITH THEM AND EVERYONE ELSE. And in their prayers for you,
their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you.
Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!!
Thank you Sheila. :HeartThrob:
#607 - FIFTEEN BOMBS THAT SANK MY THEOLOGICAL SHIP - V.E. JACOBSON
http://www.urqa.com/15_bombs.html
#608 - Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #1
Some day everyone is going to learn that it was not even possible for them TO NOT start trusting in Jesus as their Saviour when they did start trusting in Him.
The reason we know that everyone will eventually be saved is because God "will have all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to use your "free" will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement (kolasis aionios) that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #2
Why I believe that the Bible teaches that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
Dean Hough wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #3
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is a basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control, some sooner, the rest later.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #4
ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF
ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also are smart enough to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone suffer eternal torment without any say in the matter, except the few He rescues by His irresistible grace.
Robert Southy (1774 -1843) wrote, "In the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, and so impious as Calvinism."
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will include the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
Quoteworship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will include the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
Just beautiful !! :thumbsup:
Again Just Beautiful! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #5
A.E. KNOCH
One of the great Christian Biblical Universalist of the last century was A.E. Knoch.
My attitude towards the frequent threats of believers in eternal torment is summed up beautifully by his response.
An eternal torment critic said "Mr. Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace. It is only natural for one who thinks Him capable of tormenting His own creatures eternally, to seek to follow His example, and torture His servants here and now. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. We recall with joy and satisfaction the great truth that, by God's grace, it is impossible for you to enter into condemnation, no matter how much you may offend Him (Rom.8:1) and the still greater truth that we are saved for grace (Eph.2:8). While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." A.E. Knoch
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #6
AION -- AIONIOS
In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God's plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words ("ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world" to translate this one word.
And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as "ages."
Talk about confusion compounded!
Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God's truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God's glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
The etymology of the Greek word aionios does not contain the meaning of everlasting.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #7
ALL IN ALL – A.E. Knoch
A.E. Knoch's book ALL IN ALL
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of A.E Knoch's ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments Don used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
Regarding the book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch. In spite of the claim that there are contradictions in it, and in spite of "cult-buster" Don Hewey's other attempts to discredit it, (arguments to which Richard Condon has responded), ALL IN ALL remains, in my opinion, one of the best of all the many books that I have read in support of the Bible teaching universal transformation.
Don Hewey is a believer in the inspiration of the King James Version. When he accuses A.E. Knoch of "contradicting the Bible," in many cases what he really means is that A.E. Knoch contradicts the KJV, because the Concordant Translation does not rely on the Received Text from which the KJV was translated. Don Hewey therefore also attacks the RSV, the NIV, and other modern translations. For this reason much of what Don writes just doesn't make any sense.
As far as Knoch calling the life that Lazarus will be raised to as it being eonian and unending, it is both. Lazarus will have unending life and that life will allow him to live through the oncoming eons which is called '"eonian life."
But even if Don Hewey's criticisms had any merit, (and Richard Condon proves they don't), they would still not detract from the fact that this book proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments Don used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/
Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ's cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God's purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). "In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated "forever" and "everlasting" and "never" are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God's grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
ALL IN ALL can be read on the internet here
Copy and paste the following url into the server address bar or click on
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #8
ARGUMENTS
I believe that the Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 75 years old now.
People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.
Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #9
For anyone who might be interested.
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a link to a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
THE MAIN LIBRARY AND IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #10
CONSEQUENCES OF THE ETERNAL TORMENT DOCTRINE
I'm 75 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
wow this is perfect Today :ty:
How do we Love God in a more perfect way :HeartThrob:
It's logic.. pure aNd simple..! :cloud9: :dsunny:
I don't think anyone, in their heart of hearts, as the saying goes, actually believes in hell!! Not only is it too totally illogical and lacking in any intelligence or thinking ability whatsoever, but if anyone did believe it they would become the most obnoxious person alive! as they would be hounding their loved ones toward salvation!
I think all preachings on the horrors of hell is a strong attempt to convince folks they need to believe.. and of course they do need to believe to be saved, but where is it written in the Bible that after death all hope is lost.. The idea or vision of it is that someone dies and goes to 'hell'.. or those who read a bit more perhaps, that some when they are resurrected are sent straight to 'hell'.. All highly illogical.
I read the circularity link [ http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm ] Very well written!
I especially liked:
"The prevailing opinion is that death ends all opportunity; but there is no Scripture which so teaches; and all the above, and many more Scriptures, would be meaningless, or worse, if death ends all hope for the ignorant masses of the world."
...and the verse quotes:
"Who gave Himself a ransom for all, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME" (1 Tim 2:6) and "...a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (I Pet. 1:5)
I don't think a person can be found who could point to a verse and truly claim it says death ends all hope..
I cut et'ers some slack in that they've been taught it by the 'authorities' and they feel they are being faithful and protecting the gospel when they ostracize and ban a person of UR... I don't understand it, as the whole E.T. seems so illogical to me, but I was never taught it, I didn't find the Lord through a church or in a church nor from a church goer.. Of which I can just say I'm veRy thankful!
:girlheart:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #11
The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez. 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #12
Authors from the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #13
Fear
by Walter Lanyon
Fear can manifest only because of a belief in separation. As long as you are something apart from God you will experience, in one form or another, fear. It is subtle and hidden like a poisonous serpent coiled in the grass, liable to strike at any time--at the most unguarded moment, when least expected.
Its only power is given to it by thought, and it can be swollen by thought from a serpent into a dragon. All thoughts of evil are like toy balloons in that they are enlarged until finally the capacity is overtaxed and they burst. Sooner or later a fear will explode itself, however much or little damage it has done.
The panacea for all fear is your union with God.
The moment you are separated from ME and wander into the thought world (the vacuum of separation), you are subject to the laws of fear. The one who is filled with fear sees the ''ten thousand fall at your right hand,'' and is so convinced of the reality and power of evil that he fails to notice the one who passes through unscathed.
''Stand and see the salvation of the Lord'' has a definite, positive value to you NOW. For you are beginning to sense-see the power of being one instead of two. You are beginning to appropriate the instantaneous relief felt from this ONENESS.
This sudden appropriation of ONENESS is accompanied by the consciousness of how to eliminate the object of, or the belief in, fear. There are different ''cities'' of refuge into which you may run for every differing degree of fear; yet all are the same God. This ''running'' into God is not as symbolical as it appears. It is an actual fusing of you with the Father within you, and from that moment you are a majority, and you will know the NOTHINGNESS of the fear belief.
We arrive finally at the point, which is so full of the acceptance of God that it can and does say, ''Even if You slay me, yet I will say You are God''---and the last stand is taken. Even if You slay me---yet will I acknowledge this One and Only Power.
http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/pages.asp?pageid=37154
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #14
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
While the elect are enjoying life eonian, the non-elect will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
SEE
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
THE EONS
http://martinzender.com/Zenderature/the_eons.htm
:Peace2:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #15
GRACE, PLUS NOTHING – James Coram
This is not to say that our efforts are not essential or that there will be nothing for us to do since it is God Who saves us from our failings. To the contrary, God graciously saves us by causing us to work, "training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon" Titus 2:11,12. But our efforts are merely a product; they are the means through which God saves us. We contribute nothing.
It is not a question of our discipline and volition, but of pride and self-reliance concerning our discipline and volition, of boasting in the flesh instead of glorying in the transforming power of God. As long as we continue to see ourselves, in the final sense, as the key to anything, we will remain proud, antagonistic to "the grace of God in truth" Col. 1:6.
It is one thing to conceive of ourselves, in a dutiful sense and relatively speaking, as "cooperating" with the Lord Jesus, as He leads us into paths of better service. It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves to be so utterly independent of the Supreme Deity Himself, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that even He is at a loss to change our will or walk without our help.
Luke 6:32-35 shows us what God's grace (thanks) is; He is gracious to the wicked, which means sinners like we all were when He was gracious to us. It's not that we have to preach so they can be saved, otherwise we're responsible for their "eternal damnation", and they have to receive the message (if we happen to present it to them), or else they will be eternally damned. Salvation is not based on human actions, but on divine actions. He chooses who to save and when, and at that moment, that soul is saved. And He will save all, as He has clearly said He will do.
We believe the message we heard, and we preach because we are so commanded, but God doesn't depend upon us to save ourselves, nor does He depend upon our conveying the message, to save others. He is the only Sovereign, and He so arranges EVERYTHING that each will be saved. Free will and chance are myths which have completely twisted the mindset of many Christians.
HE is Good.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #16
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH ---
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78)
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 75 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your browser address bar.
0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE - Thomas Kissinger
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
24. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
25. GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm - Adlai Loudy
26. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
27. THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #17
SOME PERSONAL THOUGHTS ON "I NEVER KNEW YOU"
"There is no better place than being in the hands of God."
For a UR that is definitely true!
But for an ETer, probably not, because they might turn out to be one of these guys.
"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils, and in Thy Name have done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them I never knew you. Depart from Me ye who work iniquity' (Matt. 7:22,23).
We could possibly add to those declarations that some, in astonishment, will also say, -- "but my name should be right there in the book of life because I got myself saved in Your Name!"
They fully expect to go right into heaven based on what they had done in the Name of Jesus.
Instead, Jesus will cast them into the lake of fire which is the second death which will include kolasis aionion, which means age-during corrective chastisement.
It is God, not us, who decides who will or will not be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
QuoteIt is God, not us, who decides who will or will not be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
:thumbsup:
Jude 1
In connection with my last post I found the following helpful.
'Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy. And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Excellent!
:thanks:
Yes !! Thank you Bro Rog !! Awesome ! :2thumbs:
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #18
J. PRESTON EBY
A great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #19
JUDAS – Louis Abbott
(Here is why the case of Judas does not disprove UR.)
"Let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
Regarding the confusion of the different versions, Louis Abbott adds the following note:
"Notice how the following versions translates this clause:
The ASV, 1901 margin, "Good were it for him if that man had not been born;"
Rotherham's version, "Well for him if that man had not been born;"
Murphy's edition of the Douay Version and the New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate, 1898,
"It were better for him, if that man had not been born;"
(the following three versions are quoted in the original spelling)
Wiclif, 1380, "It were good to hym if thilke man hadde not been borun;"
Tyndale, 1534, "Good were it for him if that man had never bene borne;"
Rheims, 1582, "it vvere good for him, if that man had not been borne."
and repeating the conclusion
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
IMO that is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
But even if it did refer to Judas, consider this.
A snippet from
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Scroll down and click on
BETTER NEVER BEEN BORN
"This was a proverbial expression among the Jews, and was not employed literally."
It was the same meaning as we have today when we say "I wish I had never been born", or "You will wish you had never been born."
"But what about Judas Iscariot? Doesn't it say it would have been better if he'd never been born?
Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!" It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus (the Son of Mankind/Him) if Judas (that man) had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39. (While many Bible versions mistranslate Matt.26:24, some do put the correct rendering in the margin.)
Concerning Judas' title, "son of destruction", John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being "lost", "destroyed" or "perished". It is unwise to assume the word describes "eternal damnation". "For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi)." Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons, the 3 classes of vivification, "hell", and "annihilation".
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=
Amen, and that book is being given away free right now. http://concordant.org/gratis/free-gift.php
And a louder AMEN :dsunny:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #20
INTERPRETED VERSIONS ARE WRONG
God says what the Greek says, not what the interpreted versions say.
God says what the literal translations say.
There are several dozen Greek scholars who agree with John Wesley Hanson that interpreted versions are wrong.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
Amen, brother.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #21
LOVE WINS
Here is an analogy that I got from Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
A man courts a lady by continually expressing his love for her week after week, both verbally, and by bringing her gifts.
If he stops trying to persuade her to marry him, he loses everything.
But if he never stops trying to convince her until she says yes, then he goes to her place, gathers up all the gifts he gave her AND HER, and takes them back to his place for the rest of their lives.
Human love sometimes fails to elicit a loving response, but God's divine love is not hampered by the limitations of human love.
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
LOVE WINS
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
Amen, brother. Love is the powerful force in the universe. It overcomes all. God is love, and will be all in all.
Quote from: Tom on October 04, 2014, 03:09:43 PM
Amen, brother. Love is the powerful force in the universe. It overcomes all. God is love, and will be all in all.
:2thumbs:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #22
MUSLIMS
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too.
And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth
Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
For anyone who is interested, the following is a very informative link containing many reasons why I agree with Chad Holtz and why I understand completely why he could no longer go on pretending to his congregation that he believes in such a horrific concept of God as taught by his denomination's interpretation of the Bible, even though it cost him his job.
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hell-scholars-corner/
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
It really is a terrible lie that most of us are taught when we're young. Thank God for the truth of scripture that God is the savior of all mankind; all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God; and God will be all in all.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #23
The age following The Great White Throne Judgment is sometimes called by theologians 'the age of consummation,' or 'the age of Jubilee,' or 'the age of the New Heaven and New Earth.'
By the time that age has ended, all fallen creatures will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #24
MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe.
It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."
God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history. The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. (1Kings 8:6 literal translation instead of the most holy place.) They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time. It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."
Amen, brother!
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #25
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
While the righteous are enjoying life eonian, the unrighteous will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
SEE
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #26
THE NARROW DOOR
The language is entirely confined to the present.
"Lord, are there few that be 'saved'?" The literal rendering is: "Are those being saved few?" The question relates entirely to the number then, at that time, that were entering the narrow door and accepting Christ.
But we know that sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
Amen
AMEN
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #27
NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #28
OPPOSERS REFUTED
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
If necessary, copy and paste the links into your browser.
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick (CARM website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Hal Lindsey
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm
Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html
W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html
A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD'S TRUTH FOR TODAY LIBRARY and
IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
If the link doesn't open for you, click on the word "impatient"
Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism down through the centuries. Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
also see
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/Church-History.html
THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #29
"What about how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #30
QUESTIONS WITHOUT ANSWERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
From the introduction
"To those holding a limited view of God's plan of salvation, they are truly Questions Without Answers, but, to those who rely on God's Word, the answers become apparent as His truth is revealed to them."
An important follow-up! - by Richard Condon
A REFUTATION AND A RESPONSE
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #31
RAY PRINZING
Everyone has an "opinion," including Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor).
I'm just so glad that I discovered his "opinion" that enabled me to recover from a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 75 now) caused by my inability to trust a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
During my breakdown, every morning, as I washed my family's dishes, and before going to sleep at night, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing's many tapes.
I have listened to 178 of them once, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH (because someone else had the copyright on GOSPEL ECHOES) and I gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.
Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.
For several years my 102 year old dad (who is still living) called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing's writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray's tapes.
As I listened to Ray's tapes I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.
And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.
All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several pages of Google links about Ray Prinzing.
ETers frequently like to say that Ray Prinzing was deceived by the devil.
I encourage anyone who might be interested, to check out his writings and judge for yourself.
I was especially helped by his book called
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL
Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
Thank you Roger for your diligence in sharing the insight of others. It has brought me great comfort to read the articles you post.
Thankyou for that, I love to hear peoples stories and how they came into the light of understanding the truth.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #32
RAY PRINZING TAPES
RAY PRINZING IS MY EARTHLY HERO AND MENTOR
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GOOD WRITINGS
During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to suffer forever, I would listen to a Ray Prinzing tape while I washed the dishes of my family every day, and before I went to sleep at night. Through the years that I repeatedly listened to these tapes I became more and more confident that that I was going to recover from my breakdown.
In the opinion of Rodger Tutt of Toronto, Canada, the following are the best of all of Ray Prinzing's taped sermons.
6 CHRIST OUR MERCY SEAT
8 NO SUBSTITUTE
9 TRUST
16 SEE NO EVIL
29 THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
32 SUFFICIENT THE EVIL
35 CHANGING THY STRENGTH
36 AS KINGS AND PRIESTS
38 REVELATION TO REVELATION
42 THE TREE OF LIFE
48 KEPT IN PEACE
51 GOD'S RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENTS
55 ALLEGORY OF RACHEL
56 NONE SHALL BE LOST
59 REPENTANCE TOWARDS GOD
61 AND GOD REPENTED
63 THE END OF THE LORD
71 URGED ON BY FAITH
76 MINISTRY OF SALT
89 BLESSINGS REWARDED OR INHERITED
90 NO CONDEMNATION
95 NOT SOMEHOW BUT TRIUMPHANTLY
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
105 THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
111 OF THE SAME LUMP
119 HELD TOGETHER BY LOVE
121 ESTABLISH THE SECOND
122 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART TWO
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
128 ADVANCE IN ADVERSITY
131 ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
133 AFTER THE PRESSURES
134 THE POLISHED SHAFT
135 INTERNAL TRIUMPH
136 RECONCILED INTO HIMSELF
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
142 THE HIDDEN ONES
143 GOD'S GENTLENESS TO MAN
147 BEYOND DISCIPLINE
148 BEHOLDING HIM
149 DELIVERANCE
150 ENTER THY CHAMBERS
151 GOD OF THE VALLEY
152 GOD OF THE MOUNTAINS
153 IN QUIETNESS
154 IN CONFIDENCE
158 RENEWED INTO HIS MIND
160 EAT THE BOOK
161 HOLD FAST TO THE HEAD
162 THE SEVENTH MAN
164 SORROW TURNED INTO JOY
165 MAKE READY A PEOPLE
166 DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS
167 THE BIRTHRIGHT CHALLENGE
168 MY FATHER IS GREATER
169 HIS PARTICIPATING PRESENCE
170 CHANGES, TYRANNY OR BLESSING
171 TILL HE PLEASE
172 IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
173 KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
174 THE SWORD GUARDED WAY
175 THE HEAVENLY VISION
176 DEFEATING THE ACCUSERS
177 NEITHER TOIL NOR SPIN
178 THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
180 HE THAT SHALL ENDURE
181 LIFT UP A STANDARD
183 MUCH MORE
186 WHEN GOD HIDES HIS FACE
187 FAITH VICTORIOUS
188 DIVINE CONFIRMATION
189 WAIT FOR WISDOM'S CHILDREN
190 GOD CHOSE OUR FATHERS
192 LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER
194 EARTHEN VESSEL SINKS
196 A VERY PRESENT HELP
197 A NEW COAT, YEAR BY YEAR
198 COME UP HITHER
199 UNDER HIS SHADOW
200 A HUSHED SECRET
201 EXPECTATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
202 RETURNING INTO GOD
203 PUT A DIFFERENCE
204 FROM EAST TO WEST
206 TIME OF YOUR SOJOURNING
207 HIS HAND IS STRETCHED OUT
208 WHAT SHALL I DO?
209 TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS
210 GIVE DILIGENCE
211 LIVING EPISTLES
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
218 HOLD FAST TILL I COME
219 ACTIVELY RESTING
221 AN INNER REJOICING
222 BLESS ME INDEED
224 NO MORE ECCENTRIC
225 NOT A SPIRIT OF FEAR
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
227 AND SUDDENLY
228 THE HEAVENLY HOST ATTENDS
229 FIT FOR THE KINGDOM
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
231 GOD IS IN CONTROL
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
233 OUR THREEFOLD JUDGEMENT
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
238 FROM POVERTY TO RICHES
239 ABIDING IN GOD
240 PARTS OF HIS WAYS
241 CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST
242 MASTER OF MYSELF
243 ANOINTED EYE SIGHT
244 FAITH THAT OBTAINS
246 THE FURNACE FOR GOLD
247 RAISE UP THE FOUNDATION
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
250 INWARD REVELATION OF THE SON
251 KINGDOM LIFE TRANSFORMING
252 SO GROWS THE KINGDOM
253 AFTER YE HAVE SUFFERED
254 CHOSEN TO KNOW HIS WILL
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
256 OUR THREEFOLD RESURRECTION
257 A THORN FOR THE FLESH
258 THE MINISTRY OF WAITING
259 THERE IS A RIVER
267 HEARING, LEARNING, COMING
268 THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE ME
269 HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
270 GOLD IN THE MAKING
271 MAKE TO LACK, READY TO FILL
273 ACQUAINTED WITH THE ALMIGHTY
274 EACH IN HIS OWN RANK
278 GOD'S UNFINISHED WORK
280 FULLY PERSUADED
285 CONTINUALLY WITH HIM
286 SURRENDERED TO HIS LORDSHIP
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
296 INIQUITY SHALL HAVE AN END
297 OVERFLOW WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS
298 THINGS BELONGING TO PEACE
301 HIS DESIRE IS TOWARD ME
302 REFINED AS SILVER
303 AND GOD REMEMBERED
304 LOOSE THE PRISONER
305 ASPECTS OF SPIRITUAL LIFE
306 GOD'S INDWELLING CONTROL
307 OUT OF HIM WE CAME
308 GRACE UPON GRACE
309 JUDGEMENT RESTS FOR A LIGHT
310 HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER
312 THE SURE MERCIES OF DAVID
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
316 TOTAL AVAILABILITY
317 VIEWING THE THIRD DAY
326 KINGDOM AUTHORITY
THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE RAY PRINZING TAPES
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GREAT WRITINGS
Ray Prinzing's very best, and his two extra good tapes.
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST (extra good)
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
339 GOD SO LOVED HE GAVE
352 BUT GOD MUCH MORE
385 FREEDOM OF THE GLORY
387 ESTABLISHED BY GRACE (extra good)
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #33
FROM RICHARD CONDON'S GOD'S TRUTH FOR TODAY ARCHIVES
THE MAIN LIBRARY AND IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
This is a link to a large library of writings by many believers in universal salvation.
I think the sub-section called IN THE GARDEN is especially good.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #34
THE DESTINY OF SATAN
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16). (end quote)
"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote) Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." (end quote)
AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued." (end quote)
ERSKINE'S SKETHCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all." (end quote)
CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe." (end quote)
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
"What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself." (end quote)
COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.
TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
"Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God's affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God's love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God's limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.
Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!"
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #35
REVELATION 20:10
A frequently asked question regarding Revelation 20:10
"How can there only be one age after the millennium when the devil, at the end of the thousand years, is to be tormented unto ages of ages?"
Response by James Coram.
"The problem here is a loose usage of terms. The thousand years of the saint's reign does not constitute the entirety of the coming epochal eon or duration. The two do not end at the same time.
The period of time covered by the word eon depends upon the context. The expression "for the eon" does not necessarily include the entirety of the eon intended. While some seem to think that it must include the whole of a given eon, on the contrary, when an action occurs in an eon, it usually refers only to the rest of it. Our Lord spoke to the barren fig tree, "No longer, by any means, may fruit be coming from you for the eon." Did He forbid fruit from the deluge to His coming? The tree was not even planted until a thousand years after the flood, and it did produce fruit in this eon, but was to do so no longer (Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14; John 13:8; 1Cor. 8:13).
So also in the plural. "For the eons" does not denote the whole of them. Christ shall reign over the house of Jacob "for the eons," yet only two of them will be left when the kingdom commences (Luke 1:33).
The same is true of the phrase "for the eons of the eons." We read that the saints will be reigning for the eons of the eons (Rev. 22:5). But some of these saints will not be alive at the commencement of the millennial eon. We cannot delay this eon after the advent of the Messiah. Yet Daniel and the dead circumcision saints are not raised until seventy-five days later. Part of the eon will be past when they commence to reign with Him the thousand years (Rev. 20:6).
The same usage is found with reference to the torment of the Adversary. Although the wild beast and the false prophet have been in the lake of fire a thousand years before him (Rev. 19:20), only one phrase is used for both: "the eons of the eons (Rev. 20:10). At that juncture, how much of that eon still remains, we do not know. But no matter how little, so it was that our Lord and His apostles spoke, and we should follow His example. This usage in Rev. 20:10 of the word eon does not affect its meaning. The limitations are in the context, not in the word.
If you look in the Concordant Version of Rev 20:7 please look at the vertical line in front of "finished." "And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail." You could say: whenever the thousand years should be finishing . . . ." So Satan is cast into the lake of fire when the thousand years is finishing and through the new earth eon thus comprising the eons of the eons.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10. Those who hold to the theory of "annihilation" contend that Satan is consumed in the lake of fire, ceasing to exist before the new earth begins. Yet the text is plain: he will be tormented during TWO eons; what remains of the "millennial" eon (which lasts a little over 1,000 years), and the final eon on the new earth. Likewise, we are told of those who "shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." Rev. 22:5. That they shall be reigning on the new earth is apparent- Rev. 21:24. Likewise, Satan will be alive (and in torment) during the final eon.
Mistranslating "eons of the eons" as "forever and ever" solves nothing; it only feeds the vile theory of eternal torment, while generating considerable confusion. As for those vessels of indignation who are cast into the lake of fire near the end of the millennial eon, for them that lake is the second death. Yet they are not annihilated; their part is in that lake during the final eon- Rev. 21:8. They are not described as "nonexistent", rather, they are described as being outside the holy city- Rev. 22:15. They will be dead until death is abolished at the consummation of the eons."
Thanks Roger. As always, Jim provides a good explanation for folks.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #36
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does,
In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6.
See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and
since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just
that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
I just had to say, "Amen!"
:thumbsup:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #37
THE GRAND ASSERTION – Don Hicks
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing". I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios". "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type. The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power". Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".
The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever. The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe." The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista". Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever". Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever? What's more than forever? That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.
An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing. Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID, ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN. NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will only come to belief after their physical death.
At this point some might think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles. Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's.
God grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his traditions, but God's word does not speak of it. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." Phi 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake."
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES. "ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for the ages. Amen. 1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD DAVID was inspired to write: Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations ISAIAH was inspired to write: Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
PAUL was inspired to write: Phi 2:10-11 "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God." JOHN was inspired to record: Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for the ages of the ages!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment. Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the Father". It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."(1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD
...good stuff Roger, but I disagree with Thayer about Gehenna that "Jesus metaphorically referenced as a future potential punishment" because I think it will be used, as Isaiah prophesied, to burn the corpses of condemned criminals as it was in the past.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
The dead unbelievers are not immortal souls who will be alive to be punished in the unseen, Gehenna, or the lake of fire because the dead know nothing.
"The soul that is sinning-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
"For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #38
OUR HEAVENLY FATHER
According to Jesus, by nature, we are children of the devil (John 8:44).
But over and above that are the words that Jesus spoke to the multitude.
"For One is your Father, Who is in heaven." (Matt. 23:1 and 9)
As sinners, by attitude and actions we demonstrate that we are children of the devil.
But by right of creation, and by right of redemption through Jesus Christ, God is the Heavenly Father of everyone, even Satan (Col. 1:20).
For Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole kosmos (Greek). (1John 2:2)
Sooner or later, according to His perfect timing for each individual, God will effectively call everyone out of darkness into His marvelous light, first the chosen generation, then all the rest later. (1Peter 2:9; Col. 1:20)
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
:2thumbs:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #39
THE FOLLOWING IS BY BRIAN ON CITY-DATA CHRISTIAN FORUM
It is an "0ff-the-cuff" writing that is so good I strongly feel it is worth sharing!!
"pcamps has been very scripturally bringing us back to the fact that God is not holding men's sins against them. Can you believe it? Can God just forgive people freely? Is that fair? Is that "just??"
Well, it's not only fair. It's GRACE!!
Now, from this link here: Sovereignty Scriptures
I was truly blessed this morning.
Here's what I feel the LORD was showing me this morning, verse-by-verse:
Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now many refers to the whole world. Just as the "many" in Romans 5 refers to all mankind, so here too, many are indeed called by God, in God's time. However, only a few are chosen in this life (such as Paul the apostle) to declare His Grace and His Glory to the world.
Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
When God makes the sinner to hear His word, He causes the man to be converted and healed. Without this intervention of God directly in a person's life, there can be no healing and conversion. God does it all, in His time. When one person is "saved," that's God at work. If a person is "not saved," it's simply that God is not yet doing work in that person.
Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.
Again, it is GOD who TURNS us AWAY from our sin. He does it in His time. It is an active work on His part, and until He works in the individual, that person can do nothing.
Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.
See that? God added the Law on purpose, in order to increase the transgression. Do you believe that God is for us? If you do, then you must know by now that God increased transgression, in order that His grace would supercede it. It's all GOD's doing!! Praise God!
Let's continue:
Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Here again we see clearly, that justification is God's gift, brought in by His Own Hand, and has been extended to ALL mankind. That includes Hitler and Bundy, like it or not!
Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Yes, God made vessels of wrath. But He doesn't show His wrath on them, but brings them unto salvation by grace, according to His timing.
11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.
Here is God's final plan. He has made all people sinners, in order to have mercy upon them all! His grace is what saves us, not any works we have done. It is G-R-A-C-E which He bestows upon each sinner, one-by-one, reviving each one as He sees fit!
Grace means that man has no part in it whatsoever. Grace means that, one day, God comes to you and draws you unto Him, giving you conversion and healing. It is by grace that we are saved. As He called Saul, so He will do to each one, in His own time.
Praise God!!
I hope someone out there can hear this!!
Blessings,
brian
A little more on grace:
Jesus told His disciples that no one would be able to come to Him without the Father's drawing power. (Like a spiritual tractor beam..)
ET denys this. ET says that man can draw himself to God at any time. But that is not scriptural. Grace means that it is God's doing, not man's. Here's more:
Quote:
"Lk. 8:10 To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables; in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand."
God purposely opens the eyes of some people, and blinds other people. Why? To show His Grace in His time!
Quote:
"Lk. 10:21-22 No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Here again, Jesus shows us plainly that it is the decision of the Father and the Son, not man.
Quote:
"Mk. 4:10-12 To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables.... lest they return again and be forgiven."
Question: Have you repented and been forgiven?? If yes, then you must know that it was GOD who made you to understand it. Men who have not been drawn yet do not understand that they have been forgiven! Hallelujah! BUT, when the Father DRAWS you, He spontaneously converts and forgives and heals you!! It is HIS doing, not man's. This is what is so important to understand. Otherwise, you cannot understand what is meant by God's grace.
Quote:
"Jn. 6:65 For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Does the Father "grant" it to everyone? Yes, but not at the same time! That's why some are saved now. "Many are called, but few are chosen." That doesn't mean that most are rejected! That means that a few are chosen in this life. But all are called eventually.
Quote:
"Jn. 12:32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself."
Here's the promise! Jesus will indeed draw all men. Some now, the rest later. Count on it!
Quote:
"Jn. 17:2 Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give life eonian."
Does Jesus have authority over all mankind? YES, and He knows how to use it to our advantage, folks! It's called GRACE!
Quote:
"Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."
Did God do something here without man's permission?!? YES! He BLESSED us by turning us from our wickedness!
Does that include Ted Bundy?? YES! (But Bundy didn't know it, poor fellow.. But by now he probably already knows it! )
THAT is God's GRACE. He reveals His Power to us individually, according to when He so chooses. Individually. And when He does, we are set free!
Quote:
"Acts 11:18 God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Repentance IS GRANTED, NOT CHOSEN. By GRACE we are saved. God's decision, NOT ours!
Quote:
"Acts 18:27 On arriving, he [Paul] was a great help to those who by grace had believed."
and this:
Quote:
"Acts 16:14 And the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
Now do you see it???? Oh, I do hope so!!!
Blessings of God's grace to all!!!
Brian
Men are afraid of God. And death.
Why?
Because they haven't yet been shown by the Father that they have been blessed with Life! And when He draws them to Himself, they will automatically convert and be revived from the dead! All this, by God's grace!
Jesus told the centurion that he would be "thrust down to hell." Was he? I believe he was. But not in the afterlife, but while on Earth, when he saw people receiving God's grace to know Life! What Life? Eternal Life? It is a quality of life. And others were receiving it, and he was tormented because he was not yet drawn by the Father.
But when the Father decides to draw him individually, he will spontaneously repent, be healed and revived into that same Eternal Life.
All according to God's grace.
May God's grace touch each of us today!"
brian
Amen
I agree with what Brian is saying here, but upon further reading into the context of John 17:2, "Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give life eonian," it seems clear that John was talking about the ones who were given to him by having been chosen. So it seems to me that this scripture is not referring to all humanity, but only the chosen ones. Further down in verse 6 it says, "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word" [ESV]. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I think it refers to both because the son does have authority over "all flesh" even though only some will receive "life eonian."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"Just as you have given him authority over all flesh, he will give eternal life to them, because you have given all things whatsoever unto him."
I think it is saying, essentially.
"Because you have given me authority over all flesh(the power to distribute olam life, the power to gather all things into one in Christ, "For He must reign until every adversary is subjected"), I will give life olam(the life of the world to come, aionian zoe) to these first ones(called out ones, gathered ones, ecclessia, first fruits of the new creation) you have chosen to give me".
Thats not really a translation, it is just amplified to express what I think the thoughts of the speaker are(transliteration).
Another verse that would communicate the same thought is in Ephesians
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance(first-fruits from the dead), having been predestined according to His purpose(called out, gathered ecclesia) who works all things after the counsel of His will(counsel expressed in the previous verse as the anakephalaiomai, or "gathering together into one of all in Christ"), to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ(called out, chosen, ecclesia)would be to the praise of His glory(gathered and prepared for good works that glorify God)
Also in Ephesians 2
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions(callled out, gathered into the ecclesia)—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus(first fruits of the new creation, prepared for good works prepared beforehand, the reconciling and restoration of all, the gathering together into one of all in Christ), in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus(the whole creation eagerly awaits the unveiling of the children of God)[/b]. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast(called out- chosen). For we are God's handiwork(first fruits, vessels of the new creation), created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do(gatherers, reconcilers, restorers with/in Christ).
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #40
MYTHS - Kenneth Larsen
"...they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4
Scripture: "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
Myth: "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
Scripture: "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20, 21.
Myth: "Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest."
Scripture: "...Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him..." "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
Myth: "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
Scripture: "For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." Romans 11:32
Myth: "It was Lucifer's doing, and Adam's. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins."
Scripture: "and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.
Myth: "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
Amen
Very excellent! as always.. :smile:
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #41
THE MANY
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #42
THE MILLENNIAL AGE
"We have seen that the Millennial age with all its glory is filled with judgment and with an iron rule; and that notwithstanding its unspeakable blessings and Israel's preeminence, it is far from a perfect state. It can not be the final age. The final age must come with the New Heavens and the New Earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."
THE MILLENIAL AGE
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch7millenial_age.html
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #43
THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #44
Answers to hundreds of questions raised by partialists about universal reconciliation:
http://www.urqa.com/
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #45
The "Offer" – Kenneth Larsen
Imagine this scenario. An automobile manufacturer builds a vehicle model which it hopes will become a great success. During testing, however, it becomes apparent that the car suffers from a severe design flaw and would pose an imminent danger to the public were it released for sale. Instead of correcting the flaw, the manufacturer decides it has a better idea; it mentions the flaw on page 122 of the owner's manual and explains there how the owner can have the defect corrected at the nearest dealership "free of charge".
Does it appear rather lopsided that the vehicle is sold to unsuspecting customers with little if any mention of the design defect? Does it appear rather absurd that the responsibility for discovering the dangerous defect and having it corrected falls upon
the buyer, when the builder could have fixed the problem before taking the car to market?
Imagine this scenario. Because of the sin of our forefather, Adam, we all inherit sin and mortality. None of us are tested as he was, in order to see if we will be a righteous person or a sinner; we are all given mortality. Our choices have nothing to do with our present
condition as sinners; we are born that way.
As for salvation from sin and death, that will depend on finding the proper message and acting on it in an effective manner; otherwise the condition we inherit at birth will be our everlasting downfall.
Does it appear rather lopsided that the condemnation is universal and our choice has nothing to do with it, but our salvation from that condemnation requires our active participation? Does it appear rather absurd that the responsibility for obtaining salvation depends, in the final analysis, upon each individual, while we are in no way responsible for our needing that salvation in the first place? Doesn't it seem strange that perdition is an inherited condition, while salvation is only an "offer" made to those fortunate enough to stumble upon it?
Fact is, salvation is not an offer we happen upon; it's a gift. And a Savior is One Who saves. In 1 Timothy 4:9-11, we read, "Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." God is the Savior of all mankind, for salvation is the destiny of all. 1 Cor. 15:20-28; 1 Tim. 4:10; Jn. 12:32; Col. 1:20; Eph. 1:10; Ro. 5:18, 19; Phil. 2:9-11. God is the Savior of believers especially because He prefers some from the beginning for salvation now and during the eons of the eons (2 Thes. 2:13; Rev. 20:4, 5).
Others are vessels of indignation, as indicated in Romans 9, and will not be saved until the consummation mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:24.
Salvation is not an "offer"; God enlightens all, at the time He chooses. John 1:9-13.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #46
UR RESPONSES
RESPONSES TO SUPPOSED SCRIPTURE ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSALISM
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RESPONSES TO PHILISOPHICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSALISM
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #47
CHOOSING – part 1
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 76 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about "eternal hell" nearly always gets bogged down with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
Also see
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #48
CHOOSING – part 2
ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE
Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm (the author, Charles Slagle's personal website containing many other good writings about the subject)
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
Or
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
Or
CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
Or
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED (If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn't hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son's death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That's the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that's the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
I agree, Roger, especially because it is God's will that determines who believes and who doesn't.
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 21, 2014, 10:24:29 AM
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #47
CHOOSING – part 1
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 75 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about "eternal hell" nearly always gets bogged down with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
Also see
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #49
TRANSLATIONS
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
1. Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
3. Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age."
8. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."
9. Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."
10. The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."
12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of "everlasting punishment."
14. Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)".
15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment." The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Chapter Eleven
Quote from: JBerton on November 04, 2014, 05:55:57 PM
I agree with what Brian is saying here, but upon further reading into the context of John 17:2, "Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give life eonian," it seems clear that John was talking about the ones who were given to him by having been chosen. So it seems to me that this scripture is not referring to all humanity, but only the chosen ones. Further down in verse 6 it says, "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word" [ESV]. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
God has given Jesus authority over all flesh. In this particular reference, I agree with joeteekay that Jesus is thanking God for those who are chosen out of the whole(the all-pas) to share in His ministry of reconciliation and restoration, which will extend to "all flesh".
Eventually that authority will become obsolete. When the last enemy is anulled, and the "anakepholaomai"(gathering together of all into one in Christ Eph 1:10,11) is complete God will be ALL IN ALL and love will flow through-out the whole creation in the glorious liberty of the children of God. All rule power and authority will be done away. Jesus' authority over all flesh will be fulfilled. GLOOORRRYYY!!!
1 Cor 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ
all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming(imo these are the ones gathered/chosen out for eionian life), 24 then comes the end, when
He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27
For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Eph 1 In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12
to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory(imo these again are the ones gathered/chosen out for eionian life).
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions,
made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.(here again are the ones gathered/chosen out for eionian life) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them(now and in the age to come, the restoration of creation).
James 1:18 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that
the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also
we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.It is a beautiful and glorious plan. Called out, Chosen for transformation, Gathered into one new man by grace, appointed to fulfill the aionian purpose of God- His kind intention who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will, to be fulfilled in the ages to come, the reconciliation and restoration of all flesh till God be all in all.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman;
2 every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit;
James 5:7 Be patient, then, brethren,
till the presence of the Lord; lo, the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
Acts 3:17 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away,
in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Wow, I mean its
EVERYWHERE!Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
The harvest and the first fruits are about maturity I think, ripening on the vine, gathered in for sowing, gathered in for new wine in the new creation.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 22, 2014, 09:04:31 AM
Quote from: JBerton on November 04, 2014, 05:55:57 PM
I agree with what Brian is saying here, but upon further reading into the context of John 17:2, "Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give life eonian," it seems clear that John was talking about the ones who were given to him by having been chosen. So it seems to me that this scripture is not referring to all humanity, but only the chosen ones. Further down in verse 6 it says, "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word" [ESV]. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
God has given Jesus authority over all flesh. In this particular reference, I agree with joeteekay that Jesus is thanking God for those who are chosen out of the whole(the all-pas) to share in His ministry of reconciliation and restoration, which will extend to "all flesh".
Eventually that authority will become obsolete. When the last enemy is anulled, and the "anakepholaomai"(gathering together of all into one in Christ Eph 1:10,11) is complete God will be ALL IN ALL and love will flow through-out the whole creation in the glorious liberty of the children of God. All rule power and authority will be done away. Jesus' authority over all flesh will be fulfilled. GLOOORRRYYY!!!
1 Cor 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming(imo these are the ones gathered/chosen out for eionian life), 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Eph 1 In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory(imo these again are the ones gathered/chosen out for eionian life).
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.(here again are the ones gathered/chosen out for eionian life) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them(now and in the age to come, the restoration of creation).
James 1:18 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
It is a beautiful and glorious plan. Called out, Chosen for transformation, Gathered into one new man by grace, appointed to fulfill the aionian purpose of God- His kind intention who causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will, to be fulfilled in the ages to come, the reconciliation and restoration of all flesh till God be all in all.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman;
2 every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit;
James 5:7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence of the Lord; lo, the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
Acts 3:17 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Wow, I mean its EVERYWHERE!
Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
The harvest and the first fruits are about maturity I think, ripening on the vine, gathered in for sowing, gathered in for new wine in the new creation.
GREAT THOUGHTS EAGLESWAY!!! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement.
Eventually everyone will be saved.
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " - E.G.Jones
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
Amen
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #50
UNFORGIVABLE SIN
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/spiritblasphemy.html
VERY INFORMATIVE!!
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #51
VESSELS OF DISHONOR
For anyone who may be interested, all of the arguments presented by ETers that universalism is not scriptural have been refuted in detail in this online book.
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (published 2007)
It can an be downloaded free and read online here
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
I thank God for being able to see that believers in eternal torment will remain believers in eternal torment for as long as God wants them to.
God needs them as vessels of the grossest dishonor, a foil of contrast against which He will demonstrate the power of His love that never fails and His undefeatable grace.
But after the resurrection God will refashion all believers in eternal torment into vessels of honor because they were marred in the Potter's hands and they never leave His hands.
The doctrine of eternal torment is part of the black background against which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation, using the brushes of His love that never fails, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
After believers in eternal torment have done their very best to convince others about what God will not do, God is going to do it anyway.
Believers in eternal torment will probably not want to have anything to do with this link, but others on this forum might.
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
Amen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #52
On City-Data Christian forum there is an ETer named twin-spin who frequently likes to refer to universal reconciliation as "vomit." He is the most extreme ETer that I have ever encountered. He believes that all Christian URs are going to suffer forever in "hell."
twin-spin's "vomit" versus UR's "vomit"
twin-spin's definition of "vomit"
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
UR's defintion of "vomit"
Sustaining anyone alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
A snippet from A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
"We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called 'goodness.'
In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.
We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God's creatures miserable; and this is called 'badness.'
Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures?
No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close."
Amen
Twin spin will one day see Christ as He really is, and so be delivered from who he really is :o)
This is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful. It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :HeartThrob:
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid.
wow
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #53
WHO SHALL WORSHIP GOD?
A snippet from
"ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
Amen
K. Ross McKay
"LIFE FROM THE DEAD"
http://www.sigler.org/mckay/lifefrom.html
http://www.sigler.org/mckay/page1.html
Quote from: ed on November 29, 2014, 06:00:22 PM
K. Ross McKay
"LIFE FROM THE DEAD"
http://www.sigler.org/mckay/lifefrom.html
http://www.sigler.org/mckay/page1.html
Thanks for sharing this ed !!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #54
A TRIBUTE TO MY FATHERS WORK by Steven Tutt
Rodger Tutt has taken it upon himself to address and confront one of the central ideas of many Christians and of one most misused and misdirected tools of Christianity; that of controlling people through the fear of endless hell.
His heart-felt knowing of God let him ask something like - If God Loves us, and is omnipotent, how could/would God determine that any being suffering endlessly would/could serve Loves purpose?
Even with the imposed threat of his eternal damnation looming over his head, his spirit could not accept this distortion of Gods Love
He was taught that even to question the teachings, or consider another perspective was a sin. He had to swallow and believe everything he was told, no questions. This type of "fear-control" of a persons free thought and freedom to consider and evaluate other options is a very destructive, controlling, and blatant misuse of mind control and manipulation.
Even with no one else to back him up and no other alternative idea to comfort him, he knew, if only through its absence that there was another way. So he set out into the emptiness of total blind faith, alone, with no map, and no cane, only the pure faith and knowing that God is Love, to find the description or view of God that gave the true picture of a loving God.
I'm sure if you ask him he will tell you something like " he had no faith or knowing that God was Love at all, and that he had a nervous breakdown, and could only hope there was a better way".
But his inability to accept that a loving God would let any being suffer forever shows me that even though he had no words to describe what he felt, he knew this was not the way of Love or a loving God. Nervous Breakdown, whatever, call it what you will. I think it was the true loving God taking hold of him in the only language he had been taught, fear. I think it said to him in a voice he only could hear inside himself, something like:
"This that you call a nervous breakdown, is my loving hands stopping you from a life lived in fear.
Those that you love will damn you, as those that I loved betrayed me. But they do not know me as you do, they think I am a cruel God, but even though you have no words to protest your heart knows me and knows that I am a God of Love.
You may not understand what I am doing in your mind, or know that this fear is my hands loving you, because I talk to you with the grip of fear, and deep inside you know I am love. But, know in your soul where you have not words for it, that when this fear passes you will be free to live in the knowing of my Love.
Know that none will need to suffer forever, or even for a moment more than must be. Those who damn you are damning themselves to a life lived in fear, for they choose to believe that their God would allow a being to suffer eternal extreme cruelty with nothing good ever coming from it. In their minds they live in a world which is ruled by a cruel God.
When they are drawing their final breaths they may still believe they are being delivered into such cruel hands. They will not live in the peace knowing of my unconditional Love until they accept that none will be lost, none will be left behind.
I am assisting you through this temporary fear for it stops you from swallowing the poison of accepting that I am a cruel God. Here I set you free. I set free to find the way of my love which is unconditional, and if one loves without condition, none can be turned away."
Rodger's experience was of terror, immobilizing, paralyzing. He did not have the comfort of realizing what was said to him at the time. But he went on anyway, and searched as in the dark for people with other answers, as one would search for needles in a haystack. The people-needles would help him burst the bubbles of illusion and fear people had blown into his brain. In time he found these people amongst the billions that live on this earth and from each he took and preserved each little needle they gave and from them he fashioned a sword of truth, a sword of Love and Light that he would use to cut away the bonds of control, fear and guilt from others, and let them see the Love of God.
Someone had to make the sword, and working metal is a hot and tiresome job. The sword had to be very strong. Much time was needed to be put into its making. Its strength had to be of the highest integrity, so many tests were put upon it.
Rodger Tutt was commissioned by God to make this sword. He is his own testament to himself that everything will be better that it happened. For if he did not go through what he did he would never have known how the sword must be made or had the persistence to see its completion.
His spirit is the essence of the sword.
The words of his book, the actions of his life, his thoughts and speech, make up the blade.
When I was growing up I remember hearing the forging of that sword. For many hours of many days, behind the door of his sword making shop that he called his room, I heard him forming its shape and perfecting the details on the forge he called his typewriter. I hear he still sits sharpening his sword.
He is generous in letting others use it.
I'm sure he will share the sword with you if you ask.
The proud son of a spiritual warrior called Rodger Tutt.
Steve P. Tutt
(HE HAS COMPILED AN EXTENSIVE LIST OF LITERATURE THAT SUPPORTS HIS VIEWS)
I agree. It really is a liberating experience to know that God is love and that ultimately all will be filled with God's love. The traditional idea that God will torture the majority of mankind in fire forever is a lie perpetrated by orthodoxy to control people with fear. It is Satan's most effective deception supported by forgery in the translation of scripture. Read an accurate translation, and learn the truth.
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
"you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free" (John 8:32)
"God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10).
"Through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20).
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #55
REGARDING THE SET OF EIGHT 90 MINUTE TAPES BY JAMES CORAM CALLED
"HUMAN CHOICE AND THE DEITY OF GOD" #240-#247
These can be obtained online HERE
http://www.concordant.org/audio/index.html
About these tapes Rodger Tutt says, "I have listened to this set of tapes many times. I would rather have knowledge of the contents of these tapes than have millions of dollars.
These tapes will help you "unlearn" all the indoctrination that prevents you from embracing the truth of universal transformation."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #56
YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID – Kenneth Larsen
"You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt. 5:43-48.
You have heard that it was said, "God hates those people so much He's going to torment them in the flames."
But God says, "To no one render evil for evil; rather, conquer evil with good. In doing this, you will be heaping embers of fire on his head." Ro. 12:17-21.
You have heard that it was said, "God offers salvation to all mankind, but only saves those who believe before they die."
But God says, "I AM the living God, the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." 1 Timothy 4:10, 11.
You have heard that it was said, "Some people are impossible to save; their stubborn will is just too strong!"
But God says, "With Me nothing is impossible; no one is stronger than Me!" Matt. 19:25, 26; 1 Cor. 10:22.
You have heard that it was said, "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
But God says, "Through Christ I will reconcile all to Myself (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." Colossians 1:20, 21.
You have heard that it was said, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, all those who are in Christ shall be vivified."
But God says, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22.
You have heard that it was said, "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
But God says, "No one is seeking Me. All avoid Me. Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of My mercy." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
You have heard that it was said, "The second death will be eternal; there's no escaping the lake of fire."
But God says, "The last enemy is being abolished: death." 1 Corinthians 15:26.
You have heard that it was said, "When God doesn't give the person the chance to hear the Gospel, it's because He knows they would have rejected it anyway."
But God says, "My saving grace makes its advent to all humanity. Jesus enlightens every soul who enters the world, and He will draw all to Himself." Titus 2:11; Jn. 1:9; 12:32.
You have heard that it was said, "The subjection of all to Christ will, in many cases, involve compulsion, rather than the reception of a body of glory."
But God says, "Christ will transfigure the body of humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself. Every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, by Holy Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:3; Phil. 2:9-11; 3:21.
You have heard that it was said, "All mankind is condemned in Adam, but only some of them will receive justification in Christ."
But God says, "Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." Romans 5:18, 19.
You have heard that it was said, "God wills all mankind be saved, but that's really just wishful thinking."
But God says, "The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, annulling the acts of the Adversary! My will is to save all, and I operate all in accord with the counsel of My will." John 1:29; 1 Jn. 3:8; 1 Tim. 2:1-6; Eph. 1:11.
You have heard that it was said, "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
But God says, "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
:thumbsup:
Thank you Rodger ! good message :friendstu: you remind me of our old friend Finelinen
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #57
INFANT SALVATION
Believers in "eternal torment" are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few," also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin wrote, "There are babies a span long in hell".
Others (Arminians) consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact, if Arminians are right, is that her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Apparently they believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to Arminian theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong (Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the baby's eternal salvation. If Arminians are right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of Arminians ) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Besides, Christians kill others in war for less worthy causes than preventing others from suffering forever.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?!" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 102 year old Dad often said, "That's what makes Him God!"
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do Arminian Christians get so upset with them?!
The answer to the afterthought would be, because murder is an egregious sin, and life is His will or it would not occur in the first place. Think how twisted a mind, to take from a child the prospect of life, in order to preserve them from the horror of hell. The wicked testimony that God would torment the innocent forever has unimaginable consequences. What an ignorant monster Calvin was, to regard God as such a monster to elect babies for bliss and others for eternal torment.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 09, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
The answer to the afterthought would be, because murder is an egregious sin, and life is His will or it would not occur in the first place. Think how twisted a mind, to take from a child the prospect of life, in order to preserve them from the horror of hell. The wicked testimony that God would torment the innocent forever has unimaginable consequences. What an ignorant monster Calvin was, to regard God as such a monster to elect babies for bliss and others for eternal torment.
Anna Letitia Barbuald
"Surely this age (the eighteenth century) which has demolished dungeons, rejected torture, and given so fair a prospect of abolishing the iniquity of the slave trade, cannot long retain among its articles of belief, the gloomy perplexities of Calvinism, and the heart-withering perspective of cruel and never-ending punishments."
Robert Southy (1774 -1843) wrote, "In the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, and so impious as Calvinism."
In those days such a statement could get you murdered by Calvin by burning upon a stake.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 09, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
The answer to the afterthought would be, because murder is an egregious sin, and life is His will or it would not occur in the first place. Think how twisted a mind, to take from a child the prospect of life, in order to preserve them from the horror of hell. The wicked testimony that God would torment the innocent forever has unimaginable consequences. What an ignorant monster Calvin was, to regard God as such a monster to elect babies for bliss and others for eternal torment.
..we can discern/know/judge things by their fruit..
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 09, 2014, 09:51:27 PM
Anna Letitia Barbuald
"Surely this age (the eighteenth century) which has demolished dungeons, rejected torture, and given so fair a prospect of abolishing the iniquity of the slave trade, cannot long retain among its articles of belief, the gloomy perplexities of Calvinism, and the heart-withering perspective of cruel and never-ending punishments."
Robert Southy (1774 -1843) wrote, "In the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, and so impious as Calvinism."
She said it!! didn't she..
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #58
The Intimate Sovereign Control Of God
THE BBLE: God is in intimate sovereign control over what the Bible means to each individual. God also controls the extent to which we will try to change the mind of others about the meaning of the Bible, and He controls the extent to which we will be successful in changing the mind of others.
I personally believe that the Bible teaches the following things about -
THE WILL: God is in intimate sovereign control over the will of every created being. The only "free will" that anyone has is to choose in the direction of the strongest influence. Every choice we make is the product of influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought upon to bear upon us right now, and God sovereignly controls these influences. We are accountable for every choice but we are not responsible for it; God is. Every choice we make is the only one we could have made, and God will see to it that the result of every choice will be used to fit us into His master-plan in our own unique way. All loss is temporary. Even Esau's loss was only a loss from the human point of view. From God's point of view Esau was fulfilling His predetermined plan. Esau's apparent loss was God's way of fitting Esau into His master-plan in His own unique way. Even rewards are predetermined, and are the result of responses to God's undefeatable grace. God's grace can only be resisted temporarily, for the purpose of teaching us lessons. We are not robots, but we do have one thing in common with robots. Everything we are is the product of causality. The Bible calls us "vessels," some of honor, and some of dishonor, with most of us somewhere in between. Satan's greatest delusion is that he thinks he has a free will. Many believers in Christ suffer from this same delusion, but God is in intimate sovereign control over every delusion. God will never influence His creatures against their will, but in every case He will influence their wills to change, for their own good, and for His own glory. Any suffering that follows the great white throne of judgment will be for the purpose of influencing our will for our own good. Everyone is believing what they are supposed to be believing at any given point in time, and they will not change their beliefs until God wants them to.
SALVATION: God is in intimate sovereign control over everyone's salvation. The essential meaning of salvation is that God will change every negative thing that happened into something better that it happened than if it had not happened. And God will do it for every human and every evil spirit, including Satan. Salvation is a process that will be completed for the first fruits of election at the first resurrection, and for the rest of us after the second resurrection. God is in intimate sovereign control of the timing of that process, and He will not fail to fit everyone in a positive way into His master-plan. All of the negative consequences of sin and evil will be transformed for everyone. God will not just make it up to us. He will not just do a patch-up job. He will not just bring things back to where they were before sin came on the scene; but He will see to it that a far greater glory will result for everyone because sin temporarily prevailed than if it had not. I count it a great privilege and a gift from God that He has allowed me to see these things in the Bible. Only a comparatively few people see these things, so I consider myself especially blessed. I also believe that God is in intimate sovereign control over the reaction of everyone who reads these words.
GOD IS IN INTIMATE SOVEREIGN CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING ALL OF THE TIME.
What a wonderful thing to be able to believe.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 09, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
The answer to the afterthought would be, because murder is an egregious sin, and life is His will or it would not occur in the first place. Think how twisted a mind, to take from a child the prospect of life, in order to preserve them from the horror of hell. The wicked testimony that God would torment the innocent forever has unimaginable consequences. What an ignorant monster Calvin was, to regard God as such a monster to elect babies for bliss and others for eternal torment.
I can almost believe going insane grew from Calvin's teaching.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #59
MY OPINION
In my opinion, people who feel motivated to defend the doctrine of endless hell have been chosen by God to be vessels of the grossest dishonor, regardless as to how righteous the rest of their life appears to be. They have already sunk to the lowest level possible of moral debauchery.
In my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action is that people can believe in endless hell and not go stark-raving mad.
In my opinion, the Bible teaches universal transformation. In other words, it teaches that God will change every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened, including the sufferings that Satan must yet endure.
In my opinion, at some point in the future, God will reveal to everyone that the evangelical doctrine of endless hell is the blackest part of the canvas upon which God will paint the exceeding richness of His undefeatable grace.
In my opinion, everything that a person does is because they have to do it. In other words, everyone always responds to the strongest influence at any given point in time. It is God alone Who controls the interplay between good and evil, and He will work everything out for everyone's good in due time.
In my opinion, Satan, and all wicked beings are only doing what God wants them to do within the wise counsel of His decretive will (that which must occur). He wants everyone to rebel against His revealed will to the extent that He allows them to. Everyone will try to influence others to the extent that they feel they should, but they will only be as successful as God wants them to be.
In my opinion, people who claim to be "saved" are mistaken when they think they will not receive corrective punishment after their resurrection from the dead. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ removed the enmity between God and His creatures. But wrong attitudes cannot be forgiven. Wrong attitudes must change, and both people who claim to be "saved", and the rest of us, will receive corrective punishment for a length of time that God will decide for each individual.
In my opinion, people who read this page will say, "You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's what the Bible says that counts." And my reply is, "These opinions of mine are an expression of what I see in the Bible, and are an expression of the kind of God that I see in the Bible." In my opinion, it is God who controls how each person interprets the Bible.
In this great truth, I relax.
I rest in each of your opinions as Truth. Thank you.
QuoteIn my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action is that people can believe in endless hell and not go stark-raving mad.
This is at the same time one of the saddest and one of the funniest things I hav ever read. Perhaps that is a definition of madness. :eek:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #60
CALVINISM / ARMINIANISM
Calvinism is a cruel and unloving profanity.
Arminianism is a proud and self -righteous profanity.
Calvinism is cruel and unloving because it claims that God allows beings to come into existence that deserve to suffer endlessly, and will suffer endlessly, except for a few that God will rescue from such a fate by His irresistible grace.
Arminianism is proud and self-righteous because it claims that only those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly. They claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyone's will, unless they let Him.
The Calvinist's god allows millions of beings to come into existence and either can not, or will not, do anything to stop them from suffering forever.
The Arminian's god lets us down just when we need Him the most. Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. The Arminian god either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.
A profanity is an idea conceived by our sinful hearts. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are profanities. Against the black background of these profanities God will paint the glorious masterpiece of Universal Transformation.
The truth of Universal Transformation solves all the irreconcilable differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It recognizes that our "free will" is the freedom to choose only in the direction of the strongest influence, and that God is in intimate sovereign control over all influences.
Each person is being fitted into God's master-plan in God's own special way for them. Each person responds to their own unique set of "strongest influences." And ultimately, when the time period of the ages has ended, God will have transformed the consequences of everyone's choices into something glorifying to Himself, and beneficial to the chooser.
It is unavoidable that how we think about God will affect our state of being. We tend to become like the god we worship. The one who puts their faith in Calvinism, tends to become cruel and unloving. The one who puts their faith in Arminianism, tends to become proud and self-righteous. If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. God often operates through people in spite of what they believe.
God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell". When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.
The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.
One the day where the secrets of mens hearts are revealed before the glory of the light of His countenance and the power of His overflowing love, how many tears of joy will be shed before Him from the hearts of those who are delivered from the lie that He could do so- torment men forever. And how many tears of shame by those who insisted against all evidence to the contrary that He would do so, speaking profane things against His character and against His gospel of glory, for their own glory.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 11, 2014, 07:54:14 AM
One the day where the secrets of mens hearts are revealed before the glory of the light of His countenance and the power of His overflowing love, how many tears of joy will be shed before Him from the hearts of those who are delivered from the lie that He could do so- torment men forever. And how many tears of shame by those who insisted against all evidence to the contrary that He would do so, speaking profane things against His character and against His gospel of glory, for their own glory.
Amen to that !!
When all the dead shall rise up out of the tombs of them cold and dark /ignorant to the divine holiness and empty hearts[ them stony caverns] hiding places from the Light being the Knowledge of God in His GLORY
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #61
Consequences
I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love or respect an endless - hell god. My breakdown was caused by my fear of what God might do to me since I was unable to love or respect Him.
One of the great comforts that helped me to recover was learning that many other people have suffered with the same problem. The following quote is from THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
Note that the victims of this theology found no consolation in the Christian gospel. This was my problem too! The question I kept asking myself was, "How can I find comfort in the Christian Gospel when I can't even love or respect its God?"
In my library, I have several dozens of books, most of which I have read, and several hundred cassettes, by 29 different speakers, all of which I have listened to, some of them many times, by men who believe that the Bible (correctly translated) teaches universal transformation; that is, that God will eventually change all suffering into something better that it happened. These books and tapes answer, many times over, the arguments that I have read in seven, (plus parts of other) books in support of the idea that the Bible teaches never ending suffering for part of God's creation.
In addition to these sources, Hurley Books, Westmoreland, New Hampshire, lists 463 universalist books that can be purchased from them. It will be a comfort to many, as it was to me, to learn that there are so many people who see this kind of God in the Bible.
It is my great joy in life to make this information available to many people. God will use all my efforts as He sees fit. In this great truth I relax!
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #62
Good News
Many people are unable to believe on a Lord Jesus Christ who would allow anyone to want to, or have to suffer endlessly in hell. Because they cannot love or respect such a Christ, they are unable to put their trust in Him in a way that produces assurance of salvation. For these people, the following information will be good news:
GOD IS NOT GOING TO ALLOW ANYONE TO WANT TO, OR HAVE TO SUFFER FOREVER!
Some versions of the Bible have been mistranslated. The Greek noun "aion" means "age", not eternal. And the Greek adjective "aionios" means "of the ages", not forever or everlasting. The Greek text clearly teaches that the ages were made by God for a purpose. Ephesians 3:11 ("eternal purpose" should read "purpose of the ages"). They had a beginning, 11Tim 1:9 ("before the world began" should read "before times eonian"). And collectively, they will have an ending, Hebrews 9:26 ("in the end of the world" should read "at the conclusion of the eons"). The context of a verse doesn't necessitate the use of the word "eternal." Even when referring to the attributes of God, the use of the word "eonian" doesn't mean that His attributes will change at the end of the ages. But at that point in time He will cease to be the "eonian God." He will no longer need to manifest mercy, longsuffering, or forgiveness, for His "eonian purpose" will have been completed and God will be "All In All" 1 Corinthians 15:28.
The phrase "forever and ever" is a mistranslation. In the Greek, the phrase sometimes reads "for the age of the ages" which refers to the last age, probably the one following the millennial age. It could appropriately be called "the age of consummation." In other verses, the phrase reads "for the ages of the ages" which probably refers to the millennial age and the age of consummation together. In the same way that "King of kings" and "Lord of lords": separate one from others, so does the phrase "age of ages." And in the same way that *"holies of the holies" would separate the holy place and the most holy place from the rest of the tabernacle, so does the phrase "the ages of the ages" separate the last two ages from the previous ones. The Sinaitic manuscript actually says "holies of Holies" instead of "Holy Places".
The true, Biblical teaching about the ages has been obscured through faulty translating. The translators introduced their own ideas into the text instead of using the proper English equivalents, "eon" and "eonian."
Not until the sixth century, did the belief in endless hell become prevalent within the Christian church. It is true that modern Greeks use "the ages of the ages" to denote an endless succession of ages, but this is due to the influence of the Greek Orthodox Church. That this expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of ages is established beyond doubt by comparing Revelation 11:14,15 with 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. In Revelation 11, Christ is said to reign "for the eons of the eons." In 1 Corinthians 15, the reign of Christ is said to end. Therefore, if He reigns for the eons of the eons and His reign ends, the eons of the eons cannot be endless. Furthermore, Hebrews 9:26 says that the eons, collectively, end, so regardless of their number, they will collectively end.
To be sure there will be judgment. Wrongs will be righted. To those who have sinned much it will mean much indignation and fury, affliction and distress, Romans 2:8-9. But God corrects and disciplines only for good. Even hardened sinners who have often cursed Him, will be thankful for the strokes that bring them back to God. Each one gets only what is good for them in the judgment, not to damn them forever, but to prepare them for God's salvation. If necessary, God will use a negative manifestation of His love, but negative or positive, He will keep loving, and keep loving until He has elicited a loving response from everyone.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #63
DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."
RESPONSES:
Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.
Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.
Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.
"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.
If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.
I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"
If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"
If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God
the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.
My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is
similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.
James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html
See article above on this point also, for the likeness/parallel I
draw between, on the one hand, slavery, and on the other, death.
Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians 15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
Amen
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)
"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."
Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-( Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.
Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)
Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)
Quote from: RonnyTX on December 17, 2014, 04:07:40 PM
"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."
Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-( Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.
Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)
Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)
What a great testimony! Thanks for sharing that Ronny :HeartThrob:
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #64
THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely
As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.
As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based. But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.
When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.
When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.
Quote from: RonnyTX on December 17, 2014, 04:07:40 PM
"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."
Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-( Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.
Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)
Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)
Wow, Ronny. That
IS a great testimony. And you just described my life. Before I embraced the truth of UR I would get that indescribable feeling of dread "knowing" almost all the people I knew and saw daily would spend eternity in hell. Football games were particularly hard, because of the shear numbers of "hell-bound" sinners, screaming and shouting. Amusement parks were also difficult because of the pervasive, constant, audible screams of people riding rides - it just always made me think of hell. Praise be to the Father for liberating me from that horror, which was always in the back of my mind. My eyes well with tears of joy when I think about my new-found freedom in the Truth of the Word.
Yahweh has provided salvation, and gives good gifts! Blessed be his name.
Jesus the Lamb of God, our Savior, is full of love, forgiveness, and mercy. He is worthy of all praise.
Yah's spirit is my guide, my comforter.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #65
Love's Goal
All that love is, God is, for God is love. As the negative side of love is unselfish - seeketh not her own - so her positive side is concern for others, a deep, ardent, all consuming concern: dauntless, self-sacrificing, invincible. "Love never faileth." Such is the divine essence and this it is that is imparted to the creature.
There can be no self-complacency with God, neither could He provide a self-satisfied salvation. Divine joy is in the fullness of love, and love is all-embracing. To speak of a happy shepherd with an incomplete flock, or even of a happy flock with comrades missing, would be to malign both sheep and shepherd.
Heaven's joys will be full only when sin's sorrow cease. "Tis of mine" will be the yearning cry of the Good Shepherd spirit in the bosom of both saint and Saviour until the last of all the lost has been gathered home. Love cannot omit; His soul travail was for all. Neither can love abandon or forget. His purpose, as His promise, is "until He find it". Thus it is that He is yet to "see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." And surely we too shall be satisfied when conformed to this likeness. Oh, the fullness of heaven's joy when sin's sorrows shall have ceased!
D. Buchanan
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #66
WHY?
Why did God make the universe, the earth and sky above?
Scripture gives the answer when it says that "God is Love".
Before God made the universe He worked out a master plan.
He knew how everything would end before it all began.
He made mankind so He could have an object for His love,
But man was blind and did not see that it came from above.
So God created evil as He had created night,
So man could see the good in Him - In darkness we see light.
He made the "blackboard" very black, with evil, sin, and woe.
He made an adversary to be His cunning foe.
He made the earth to be a "stage" to show the hosts above,
By all of our experiences, His wisdom and His love.
He locks up all in stubbornness to make His mercy clear;
Lets Satan lure all men away so He can draw all near.
He gives His only firstborn Son to die and save us all.
Yet each in his own class we read; we're blind until our call.
You ask me why God made the earth, the glittering stars above?
The Scriptures give the answer when they say that 'God is love".
Ray Prinzing
Amen
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 17, 2014, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on December 17, 2014, 04:07:40 PM
"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."
Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-( Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.
Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)
Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)
Rodger to Ronny:
What a great testimony! Thanks for sharing that Ronny :HeartThrob:
Ronny to Rodger:
You're welcome Roger and I'm just so glad,that God has given me such to share. :-)
Quote from: JBerton on December 17, 2014, 10:06:06 PM
Quote from: RonnyTX on December 17, 2014, 04:07:40 PM
"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."
Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-( Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.
Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)
Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)
JBerton to Ronny:
Wow, Ronny. That IS a great testimony. And you just described my life. Before I embraced the truth of UR I would get that indescribable feeling of dread "knowing" almost all the people I knew and saw daily would spend eternity in hell. Football games were particularly hard, because of the shear numbers of "hell-bound" sinners, screaming and shouting. Amusement parks were also difficult because of the pervasive, constant, audible screams of people riding rides - it just always made me think of hell. Praise be to the Father for liberating me from that horror, which was always in the back of my mind. My eyes well with tears of joy when I think about my new-found freedom in the Truth of the Word.
Yahweh has provided salvation, and gives good gifts! Blessed be his name.
Jesus the Lamb of God, our Savior, is full of love, forgiveness, and mercy. He is worthy of all praise.
Yah's spirit is my guide, my comforter.
Ronny to JBerton:
Amen,praise be to God,who liberated us from such! :-)
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #67
THE PLAN OF THE MASTER WEAVER
Our lives are but fine weavings
That God and we prepare,
Each life becomes a fabric planned
And fashioned in His care.
We may not always see just how
The weavings intertwine,
But we must trust the Master's hand
And follow His design,
For He can view the pattern
Upon the upper side,
While we must look from underneath
And trust in Him to guide...
Sometimes a strand of sorrow
Is added to His plan,
And though it's difficult for us,
We still must understand
That it's He who fills the shuttle,
It's He who knows what's best,
So we must weave in patience
And leave to Him the rest...
Not till the loom is silent
And the shuttles cease to fly
Shall God unroll the canvas
And explain the reason why ---
The dark threads are as needed
In the Weaver's skillful hand
As the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He has planned.
---Author Unknown
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #68
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
Amen. Folks who believe orthodox doctrine don't seem to think it through to this logical conclusion. Scripture accurately translated tells a completely different story of universal reconciliation and salvation of all mankind.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #69
A Message Of Comfort
Let Nothing be Worrying You!
William Mealand (possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)
"Let nothing be worrying you, but in every prayer and petition let your requests be made known to God with thanksgiving, and the peace of God, being superior to every frame of mind, shall garrison your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus" Phil 4:6-7.
There is an elixir of life in words like these. Touching life at all points, they embrace every experience, and affect every problem. How positive they are, how emphatic! There is no room left for the smallest doubt to intrude. The words are just an exquisite echo of the Psalmist's thought - fret not thyself!
How complete, how inclusive the injunction is! Let nothing be worrying you. Not a single thing. But can we realize it? Is it possible to live up to such a counsel of perfection? A thousand times, yes! And for the great reason that this rare paragraph enshrines a God given assurance. There is a promise, a pledge of a superior peace - the peace of God, His perfect provision for the keeping, the steadying of our hearts in Christ Jesus.
What an expression of God's solicitude! And for each of us to make true in the circumstances of life. How true, rests with the quality of our reliance upon God. In how far we leave things to Him, for His working out. And His appointment is never a disappointment. Therefore, on no account are we to worry. It does no good, changes nothing, nor ever gives us back the thing we prized. It enfeebles and wastes our strength, keeps the brain excited, the blood feverish, and the heart beating wildly.
If, then, we must not worry, and there are things in life calculated to make us anxious, how may we displace worry? By taking God into our confidence as we voice immediate needs. "Let your requests be made known to God, with thanksgiving." Note the proviso - with thanksgiving, which in itself affects the burdened mind. Indeed, thankfulness for the simple things of life, the ordinary, forgettable things, means much.
The tragic indictment of the ancient world was that, "knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him." Stars in the heaven are thanked, the saints in the calendar, but not God. So many occasions call for it, and a voiced acknowledgment deepens our consciousness of His daily care.
No aspect or department of life is outside the interest of God, our Father. He is at all times an interested Listener. Our requests, therefore, may be unreservedly made known. Let them flow forth, without any concern as to how they will be met. That rests with God's will and wisdom. Seeing all the intricacies of life, He appoints in accord with them. Has He not ordered them, both good and ill?
There are some things in life God would not have us change! And happy are we, if, in the acceptance of them, we see the Father's own rare ordering. Let us so live, in the spirit of a line from a hymn: "I do not ask to see the distant scene, one step enough for me." It suffices that we make our requests known to God, and leave them with Him. This done, with thanksgiving, there will come to heart and mind, God's own wonderful peace.
"And the peace of God, being superior to every frame of mind, shall garrison your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus." Here, in a peace which surpasses all power of thought, lies the strength and joy of Paul's counsel of perfection. It is the peace of God, in contrast with, and superior to, all human counsel, palliative, or panacea.
Gift of the God of peace, it is the only calm in a world of unrest. But oh, how this peace differs from that which the world offers! WE see the word used all around us. Yet how little it conveys, how far short it falls, of all that such a word should stand for! Does it not look lost, as a wandering star from it's orbit?
Only as linked with God and His ministering grace does the word hold real comfort and consolation. In such union it has vital power, confirming its frequent and heartening occurrence in the calm of a rich content. The peace of God. Grace and peace. Yes, yes. In spite of all around us, and the tangle of daily events, For our hearts shall be as a citadel, gloriously kept. "The Lord is thy Keeper."
What a glad secret of life! One that Christ Himself exemplified. He did not worry or fret impatiently. He trusted, He rested supremely in God. He gave Himself completely over to God. He prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup be passing by from Me. Moreover, not as I will, but as Thou!" A second time He prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass by from me except I should be drinking it, let Thy will be done!" Matt. 26:39,42.
How sublime an example of utter submission to God's will! There has been but One, and there will never be another so altogether acquiescent to the Father's will. The purpose, will, and majesty of God, the Father, was everything to Him. How much so we have yet to see. In the meanwhile, let us hold by this superior peace. It is resident in Him. He is our peace, and He is on the throne, even the throne of the universe.
Therefore, "let nothing be worrying you." Rather, "let your requests be made known to God, with thanksgiving." In these two statements we have first a prohibition, then an injunction. Is it not that prayer should be the death of care? It follows, however, that the source or cause of worry should not be self-made. It should be that imposed on us, and not something fashioned by ourselves which we persist in carrying. This we must throw away. Life, to be happily lived, must have in all its aspects, a felt consciousness of God. At all times there should be a sense of God's ruling. For, not only is God operating the universe in accord with the counsel of His will, but Christ is carrying it on by His powerful declaration. What control is here, and how complete! Just to feel that we are entirely in God's hands, flung upon His care and control, is to know a peace inviolate. What small resemblance to the faith of Christ our faltering trust displays! Self looms so large with us, and hence disquietude. Not so with our Lord. He displayed the dignity of complete assurance. Rejecting His disquietude, He puts in its place the thought of the majesty and power of God the Father.
Let us learn of Him to quietly accept our Father's will. Let us be disposed to that which is above, where Christ is, enthroned at God's right hand. Then we shall know the peace of God, and how superior it is to every frame of mind. And the God of peace shall be with you, in every moment, every hour.
"Drop They still dews of quietness,
Till all our strivings cease:
Take from our souls the strain and stress,
And let our ordered lives confess
The beauty of Thy peace."
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #70
THE BLACKEST OF ALL BACKGROUNDS
As some of you know, I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 76 now) over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever.
By listening to many audio tapes by Ray Prinzing over that period of time, I was able to gradually recover. All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several Google pages of links about him.
Millions of Muslims believe that non Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell.
Quote from
Islamic Beliefs about the Afterlife
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm
And, as most people already know, millions of Christians believe that non-Christians are going to suffer forever in hell.
The way that I emotionally cope with (i.e. stop myself from going crazy again) because of the existence of ETers (i.e. believers in eternal torment), is to perceive ETers as God's vessels of grossest dishonour -- a necessary foil of contrast in the guise of truth – a part of the blackest of backgrounds, upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that cannot fail, and His grace that can never be defeated.
The marred vessels (i.e. ETers), never leave the Potter's hands, (they are marred in the Potter's hands), and neither will anyone leave the Potters hands. After our resurrection from the dead, all ETers will be refashioned, and transformed into vessels of honour, and it will be plain for all to see that it was better that ETers were vessels of dishonour for a long as they were (Jeremiah chapter 18).
One of the dishonourable characteristics of some ETers is that they have no desire whatsoever to check out the reasons why URs (i.e. universal reconciliationists) believe that a literally translated, (not interpretively) translated Bible, actually teaches universal salvation.
But it may be that a silent member, or surfer, or lurker on this forum might be motivated enough to check us out and decide if the conclusions of URs have any merit.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
No doubt, some ETers will say that they have examined the evidence of the URs and have rejected it as being false. That, of course is to be expected of those for whom God has chosen to temporarily be a marred vessel. At least, that is the way I see it.
In my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that He is going to let anyone suffer forever and not have a nervous breakdown thinking about it.
Happy new year Roger. That we may receive another 365 posts from you this year :-)
:iagree:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 01, 2015, 01:51:25 PM
Happy new year Rodger. That we may receive another 365 posts from you this year :-)
Thank you WhiteWings and eaglesway.
I love to share my snippets and documents on many forums. :HeartThrob:
URs love them. ETers :eek: and ANers :sigh: not so much.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
Quoted from A SOUTHERN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH HISTORY
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism; I now think entirely differently. It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard.
There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard.
I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it, and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it."
-Abraham Lincoln
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said,
"The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend." (unquote)
God always does things "the best way." :thumbsup:
GOD'S "CONVERSION" – Kenneth Larsen
God's "Conversion" : A mythological saga of our Heavenly Father's change of character, as told by theologians, ancient and modern.
In Adam, all are dying, for the creation was subjected to vanity. 1Cor. 15:22; Ro. 8:20. It was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation. Ro. 5:18. We were all constituted sinners through the disobedience of one man. Ro. 5:19. This collective perdition came through no choice of ours as individuals, but is our inheritance, our fate.
Nevertheless, so the story goes, there came a time when God, wanting to conform His doings to the highest ethical standards, set Himself upon a radically different course. Henceforth, He would not act arbitrarily, but only in accordance with the rights and sovereign choices of the individual; from then on He was to obtain permission from His creature before acting on his or her behalf. In contrast to the collective loss, salvation was to be an individual matter, and subject to obtaining cooperation from His subjects. No more "spiritual collectivism"; now God had enthusiastically embraced the "spiritual free market". Our Heavenly Father was now, henceforth and officially, a "Gentleman", and would no longer force anything upon anyone; He would subject His will that all mankind be saved to the whims of the very creation He had formerly confined under collective condemnation. 1 Tim. 2:1-6. The "plan of salvation" would consist of Christ offering salvation to all, and then being satisfied with whatever percentage He could manage to save. Isaiah 53. He would be honorifically titled "the Savior of all mankind", but that would really amount to nothing more than wishful thinking, for He would especially (that is, only, as the story goes) save those who believe during this life. 1 Tim. 4:9-11.
Did God truly change His dealings with mankind? Does He really change?
Of course not! Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12; 13:8; Jn. 14:9; 10:30. "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22. "Even as... thus also..."- In similar fashion to the collective death, is the collective life! Romans 5:15- "But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds." Who are the many who died because of Adam's offense? All mankind. And so, much rather, God's gratuity in grace, through Christ's perfect life and obedience to the death of the cross, SUPERABOUNDS to the many- all mankind! Does the salvation of some of those lost suggest a superabundance of grace? No! Does a collective, obligatory condemnation to sin and death, coupled with an individual, optional justification of life constitute a superabundance of grace? Not by a long shot! God subjected the creation to vanity in HOPE! Ro. 8:20. Did He hope that the entrance of sin would cause even one to be permanently lost? Of course not! Lk. 15:3-32.
Ro. 5:18, 19- "Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." As it was through Adam (a collective condemnation), THUS ALSO it will be through Christ (a collective justification of life)! God promises a universal reconciliation. Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:5-11. He will draw all creation to Himself, using whatever loving means He has at His disposal, including judgments. Jn. 12:32; 1:9-13; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; Lk. 12:45-49. Our Heavenly Father will confer faith and repentance upon all, at the time He chooses. 2 Pt.3:9; Acts 5:31; 11:18; 17:31; 2 Tim. 2:25. Obviously, our stubborn will must be subdued, but take heart, for "Not stronger that He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22; Is. 45:22, 23. Our unchanging God will be All in all! 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
EDITOR'S NOTE
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #71
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief in universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ABOUT THE AUTHOR - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/AboutAuthor.html
..that's very good, about "the many", I never knew it like that, just it's surely the same for both instances..
I think of truth as being (basically) simple, but the psyche of mankind has much deviousness and twists and turns.. so simple, the word plus logic. Surely God can only be perfect.. Perfect makes no mistakes, loses nothing.. Perfect could (surely?) see all possibilities stretched out before His sight, before he ever began the 'work' of creation, and surely all His choices He has made have been and are in order to bring about the very best 'end' result/creation/ultimate reality possible.
When He chose to endow thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about.. Responsible Himself, surely He "built in the rescue" from death and its cause imperfection, "from the very beginning and foundation of the world" for all.. the many. Nothing is too much for Him. [How He has been underestimated!]
:hiya: Blessings to all! I pray it is a good and fruitful year for all at Tentmaker!
About Louis Abbot:
I found his thesis on "The Analytical Study of Words" to be one of the most informative articles I ever read.
I occasonaly re-read it because of its help to my understanding.
However one portion of his work still confuses me. Is Mat 25:46 referring only to the nation or to all of humanity?
Below is a portion of that article. Any opinions?
:dontknow:
Matthew 25:31-46 concerns the judgment of NATIONS, not individuals. It is to be distinguished from other judgments mentioned in Scripture, such as the judgment of the saints (2 Cor. 5:10-11); the second resurrection, and the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). The judgment of the nations is based upon their treatment of the Lord's brethren (verse 40). No resurrection of the dead is here, just nations living at the time. To apply verses 41 and 46 to mankind as a whole is an error. Perhaps it should be pointed out at this time that the Fundamentalist Evangelical community at large has made the error of gathering many Scriptures which speak of various judgments which will occur in different ages and assigning them all to "Great White Throne" judgment. This is a serious mistake. Matthew 25:46 speaks nothing of "grace through faith." We will leave it up to the reader to decide who the "Lord's brethren" are, but final judgment based upon the receiving of the Life of Christ is not the subject matter of Matthew 25:46 and should not be interjected here. Even if it were, the penalty is "age-during correction" and not "everlasting punishment."
Dr. J.D. Dummelow, in his commentary on Matt. 25:31-46, says, "Christ here speaks of the judgment of Christians alone, because that was the question which most concerned the apostles and their future converts... A common interpretation, however, is that the judgment of all mankind is meant."
Thanks joeteekay for your input.
I wish I knew how to respond. :dontknow:
Since I don't I will just continue to post snippets. :-)
#1. A snippet from Universalism the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian
Church During its First Five Hundred Years, by J. W. Hanson, 1899:
(Origen Adamantius)
"This greatest of all Christian apologists and exegetes was a distinctive Universalist. He could not have misunderstood or misinterpreted the teachings of his Master. The language of the New Testament was his mother tongue. He derived the teachings of Christ from Christ himself in a direct line through his teacher Clement; and he placed the defense of Christianity on Universalist grounds.
When Celsus, in his "True Discourse", the first great assault on Christianity, objected to Christianity on the ground that it taught punishment by fire, Origen replied that the threatened fire possessed a disciplinary, purifying quality that will consume in the sinner whatever evil material it can find to consume....God will act the part....Origen says, "not like a cook but like a God who is a benefactor of those who stand in need of discipline of fire.""
As I see it, the word nations, in the Hebrew, was goy- groups, tribes, cities, nations- all who were not Jews....then later, it came to mean all who were not Christians- including all of humanity in their territories, communities, city states, etc., nations, etc. :2c:
hmmm...since God's covenant people are to be a 'Blessing to All nations" such as anyman acceptable to Christ=receive
Holy spirit[unto the gentiles] maybe this 'Judgement of the nations has to do with if/how they receive those shod with
the Good news of peace!.
I'd say so :o)
#2. A snippet from Whatever Became of Melanie? (2005), pages 138-139, by
Allan Ernest Chevrier:
(Romans 5:18-21)
"Now what was the result of Adam's transgression? It was universal condemnation of all, without first consulting them or asking for their contribution. The result of Adam's disobedience was complete and universal in its scope and consequence, plunging each and every member of his race into sin and spiritual separation from God.
Now, just as Adam's sin had a direct, powerful, irresistible effect on the whole for evil, so the righteous act of Christ has a direct, powerful, irresistible effect on the whole for good. Just as one sin resulted in universal, real, actual condemnation, so the one act of righteousness performed by Christ, the second Adam, results in universal, real, actual justification, not just an opportunity to cast your lot in with Jesus, not just the offer of life, but the real, actual, powerful impartation of life! The real actual, powerful communication of righteousness! The plain language of the text allows for nothing less!"
#3 - THE MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD – Gary Siglar
The message for the world today is only one --- that God has reconciled you back to Himself. He didn't just redeem a few. He didn't just forgive a few. He didn't determine that a few would be saved and the rest would be eternally lost. God has a plan that is so perfect and worked out to restore all of mankind back to their source.
If you understand that no matter where you are today God chose you, before the foundation of the world, that you would be holy and without blame before Him in love. If you can believe this simple word you will rejoice.
I know the condition of carnal humanity. I know the condition of some people who love God. I know the carnal condition that most of us are in. The truth is --- and the truth will set you free --- you are holy, unblameable, and irreprovable in His sight. Not in your carnal adamic life, but in Christ. Christ is holy, unblemished, and undefiled. If you can accept that you will be that experientially. If you can't accept that you won't yet experience it but you still will eventually as God brings you into the knowledge of your true identity.
God has never, ever, made one human being that will fail except for a good purpose, because He works all things after the counsel of His own will. Known by God are all His works from beginning unto end.
Gary Sigler
http://sigler.org/
AMEN...
#4 A snippet from The Inescapable Love of God, Pages 59, 60, by Thomas Talbott:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32).
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15:22).
In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first "all" seems to determine the scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserts in Romans 5:18 that Christ's one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all, he evidently has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation; when he insists in Romans 11:32 that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in, disobedience; and finally, when he asserts in I Corinthians 15:22 that "all shall be made alive" in Christ, he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam. The grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it only if you are prepared to reject what is right before your eyes."
Does "All" mean "All"?
http://hopebeyondhell.org/
A HELPFUL STUDY REGARDING "THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN"
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/spiritblasphemy.html
#5 - "Hippolytus (about A.D. 220) enumerates and comments on thirty-two heresies, but universal restoration is not named among them. And yet, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen- then living- were everywhere regarded as the great teachers of the church, and their view of man's future destiny was generally prevalent, according to Augustine, Jerome and others. It could not then have been regarded as a "heresy" or Hippolytus would have named it. What a force there is in fact that not one of those who wrote against the heresies of their times ever named universal salvation as one of them! Hippolytus mentions thirty-two. Epiphanius wrote his Panarion and epitomizes it in his nacephal'osis or Recapitulation, but not one of the heresy-hunters includes our faith in his maledictions. Could there be stronger evidence than this fact that the doctrine was not then heretical?"
A snippet from
Universalism the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During
its First Five Hundred Years, by J. W. Hanson, 1899
QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
#6 - The subjection of all to Christ
What does God mean when He states that Christ can subject all to Himself? Philippians 3:21 tells us that this will be in accord with the transfiguration of the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory. This is further explained in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44: "Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body." Verse 28: "Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."
So not only is Christ able to subject all to Himself; He WILL subject all to Himself. Once all are subjected to Christ, Christ will subject Himself to God, that God may be all in all. This is when Christ will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father- verse 24. Verses 25-27 show the intimate relationship between the subjection of all to Christ, and the abolishment of death. In verse 22 we are informed that the "all" encompasses the entirety of mankind. This is in perfect harmony with Phil. 3:21.
To further elucidate the theme, Paul gives us the revelation of Romans 5:18, 19. Being constituted just (immortality/ vivification) is contrasted with being constituted sinners (the body of our humiliation). Just as all mankind were condemned through Adam's act, all mankind are justified through Christ's sacrifice. This is an essential and unavoidable part of Christ's achievement, "...For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8. Never doubt that Christ and God are able to overcome Adam and Satan. Death will be abolished in practice; it already has been in principle. The realization of this achievement is accomplished in phases, for there are three classes in view in 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
http://www.truth.info/future/universalism.htm
#7 A snippet from The Outcome of Infinite Grace
Death Swallowed Up in Victory
By Dr. Loyal Hurley:
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8,9). Why do these verses follow immediately the statement, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"?
And why do these verses begin with the word "for"? The word "for" shows a relationship between what precedes and what follows. In the ages to come, He will demonstrate His grace, for He has already shown it to us, His church, whom He will use as the demonstration.
No member of the church deserves to be saved by grace. Not one thing can we claim that has any merit in it. Some will say that at least our faith is our own. "For by grace are ye saved through faith"—and surely the faith is ours. But Paul will not have it so, for he adds, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Yes, God gives to us our faith, "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3). And He gives it to us through "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). Not only does He give us grace: He gives us the faith to receive it. Otherwise we would still be in stubbornness or unbelief. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom.11:32).
So God chooses a few undeserving sinners in this age through whom He will demonstrate His grace to other undeserving sinners, "in the ages to come." And the demonstration will be convincing, too. It will accomplish what God intends that it shall accomplish: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in the heavens, and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph.1:10)."
#8 - THE NATURE, THE CHARACTER OF CHRISTIAN PRAYER - JOHN WESLEY HANSON
Every human being is under perpetual obligation to pray to God as the Father of all souls, to bring in His kingdom, fulfill His will and deliver from evil, and save from sin the whole human family; and that we are commanded to pray for this,—universal salvation—is evident from the language of the Apostle Paul in I Timothy 2:1-4:
"I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and
all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty; for this is good and acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved and to come
unto the knowledge of the truth."
Thus God desires all men to be saved, and you and I and all men are commanded therefore, to pray that all men may be saved. God does this. This prayer proceeds from the divine heart all the time. "Prayer is the soul's sincere desire uttered or unexpressed." All men must, when they follow the instincts of their nature, pray for the salvation of
all men...
But the second feature in prayer is, that men, "whatsoever they ask for of God, shall pray in faith, nothing doubting.
I Timothy 2: 8:—"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting
up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."
It is wicked to pray for anything to God, unless we pray in faith,
unless in our heart of hearts we believe our hopes will be answered. A
faithless prayer is an abomination in the sight of God; hence the
apostle says in Romans 14:23:—"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Now, then, a Christian must pray for universal salvation; if he does not, he does not offer Christian prayer; and if a man thus prays, but believes that his prayer will not be answered, then he cannot offer Christian prayer. Genuine Christian prayer comprehends the final salvation of all men, and as it is necessary to give it in full faith, nothing doubting, it demonstrates the final salvation of all, for certainly God would not command his children to pray for a thing and pray without doubting, unless in the divine plan that were to be the result. Hence Paul appeals to this ground of faith in I Timothy 2:5-6:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
#9 - In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen 9
#10 - Does God "offer" salvation to all, and it's up to each one to either accept it or reject it?
First, of ourselves, none of us would accept it. So, we should receive the clear Bible teaching that faith is a gift. Ro. 3:10-18; Eph. 2:6-10; Phil. 1:29.
Second, we know from Ro. 9 and other verses such as Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13 and 3:2, that God does not choose to save all in this life.
Third, we know God wills all to be saved. Titus 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6.
Fourth, we know that all things are possible with God. Matt. 19:25,
26; Jeremiah 32:17.
Fifth, we know that Christ enlightens all, and draws all to Himself.
John 1:9; 12:32.
Sixth, we know God will reconcile all to Himself. 1 Cor. 15:20-28;
Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; Ro. 5:18, 19.
Therefore, seventh, we know that God grants salvation (faith,
repentance, and reconciliation) to all, for He is the Savior of all
mankind. Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Tim. 4:9-11 - Kenneth Larsen.
Just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your beautiful contributions to this forum, Roger, and please know that there are, no doubt, many, such as me, who have been reading.....from afar, and so appreciate the words you share here.
May you be strengthened and made happy all your days.
Thank you. :)
Sue
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on March 15, 2015, 01:10:25 AM
Just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your beautiful contributions to this forum, Roger, and please know that there are, no doubt, many, such as me, who have been reading.....from afar, and so appreciate the words you share here.
May you be strengthened and made happy all your days.
Thank you. :)
Sue
Thanks Sue. It gives me great pleasure to share what I have learned! :HeartThrob:
Does traditional Christianity cause insanity? Many seem to think so. This video is the story a pastor and his daughter of their journey from the traditional turn or burn gospel to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like it on Facebook and please send links to your family and friends. Gary Amirault
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnZRms3XZE
#11 - "Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.
This basic truth is much more forcibly revealed later on in connection with the call of the nations. We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains."
-Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
(http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC04_John.htm)
#12 - TENTMAKER MINISTRY WEBSITE ARCHIVES
INTERESTING READING THAT URS WILL ENJOY
If the link doesn't open up, click on the word "impatient"
January 15, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19980115040606/http://www.tentmaker.org/
December 1, 1998: http://web.archive.org/web/19981201194938/http://www.tentmaker.org/
June 10, 2000:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000610020831/http://www.tentmaker.org/
#13 - DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL – Kenneth Larson
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan inherited ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
"preconceived pagan inherited ideas" - yep, if humans have an immortal soul (inherent immortality) why would one have to "put on immortality" at Jesus' return/the first resurrection/revivication? Pagan kings with aid of priest(s) used the "after life" and "punishment" as a means to control (and amuse) the people..
#14 - IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30.
God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.
Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.
#15 - Questions
In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility.
Rodger,
I know it's been said many times in many ways by many members, but here's another: Thanks for all of the great posts!
Pat
I always had these and more unanswered questions until I saw the light. God is love, and his ultimate plan is to manifest the power of love to overcome evil.
This is the scripture that has been distorted to deceive people into thinking that unbelievers will be tormented in fire forever.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
Mortals cast into the lake of fire will be dead, and the dead know nothing.
"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Forget about orthodox theology that lies to you about God torturing people in fire. Believe the inspired written word of God.
Quote from: Patinak on March 25, 2015, 07:44:26 AM
Rodger,
I know it's been said many times in many ways by many members, but here's another: Thanks for all of the great posts!
Pat
:iagree: :iagree:
...and great questions.. very logical! which one would think all persons would consider!
Quote from: Tom on March 25, 2015, 04:29:47 PM
I always had these and more unanswered questions until I saw the light. God is love, and his ultimate plan is to manifest the power of love to overcome evil.
This is the scripture that has been distorted to deceive people into thinking that unbelievers will be tormented in fire forever.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
Mortals cast into the lake of fire will be dead, and the dead know nothing.
"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Forget about orthodox theology that lies to you about God torturing people in fire. Believe the inspired written word of God.
What was it I read the other day which struck me as being about the abyss..? :Chinscratch: which more and more I think is the grave and the journey there (psychological journey that is).. oh i remember, it was babylon - which false religion is a part of but not the whole - will be "thrown down and will not be found anymore"..
It made me think of the grave, and to think of it as a state of not being. (which is, I believe, where all rational creatures, sooner or later, would go, even if YHVH Most High God and Creator had not set everything in motion in such a way that all "in heaven and earth" would travel this road (lesson?) all together at once..
And all would perish if not for God's victorious rescue through Jesus! I get the sense that God is life, and also perfection, so to be imperfect is to be the opposite of life. And once imperfect, being imperfect, one cannot reverse their course back to perfection. And sooner or later it's a bottomless pit of lostness, ending in nonlife, the opposite of God. And that journey needs a rescue. I guess what i'm trying to say is I see it as a whole thing.. Or what it is, is the grave is a big part of it.
But the myths and fables warned about in the later new testament letters, which I'm thinking Christianity adopted(?) have done away with the grave. This doesn't seem right to me.
Quote from: Patinak on March 25, 2015, 07:44:26 AM
Rodger,
I know it's been said many times in many ways by many members, but here's another: Thanks for all of the great posts!
Pat
My pleasure Patinak. I love to share! :dsunny:
#16 – By Hannah Whitall Smith
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so. Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
#17 - RAY PRINZING COMBO (worth repeating)
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my earthly hero and mentor)
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
#18 - The first-born and first-fruits are the "few" and "little flock;" but these, though first delivered from the curse, have a relation to the whole creation, which shall be saved in the appointed times by the first-born seed, that is by Christ and His body, through those appointed baptisms, whether of fire or water, which are required to bring about "the restitution of all things." St. Paul expressly declares this when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, ... that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in the earth, even in Him." - Rev. Andrew Jukes
#19 – By Walter Lanyon
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."
With this overshadowing comes the peace that passeth ALL. An osmosis - absorption - a blending; into the ONE takes place and there is no longer question and answer, problem and solution.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" becomes a reality. There is no limitation - no questioning whether the desire is good, bad, or indifferent - for from this elevation the desire is the shape of the idea sent straight from the heart of God, and is made alive by the pulsating heartbeat of the universe.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" yet are you desireless, free from wanting and ready to move into a place of substance, out of the place of things and yet in the midst of them all. You are suddenly One. There is no more you and your problem, there is only you. You pass easily through the crowd of beliefs.
The Light universal keeps shining. As it intensifies, it absorbs the shadows of human belief; nothing matters, yet, everything does. It transform the Temple-body into a tenuous substance, through which it can shine forth, - assuming any attribute of God at will. Healing is not, then, some wonder projected through human thought, but rather the enveloping of the Golden Shadow. It is a natural blending with LIFE which rules out the narrow confines of health and strength in humankind. I AM suddenly submerged in a sea of LIFE - eternal, golden, and all redolent with the LOVE of God.
For the first time, the mystical becomes the intensely practical - the only real thing you have ever known. Sight becomes a capacity to peer through the dense midnight of thought, by means of the Light which projects its Golden Shadow from the "Mind which was also in Christ Jesus" and which you realize is the mind that is also in you.
No longer will you compromise with this power and put it through a thousand and one beliefs concocted by the mind of man. Instead, you permit it to take shape and form, even as the air takes the shape automatically of any vessel, yet never congeals or becomes set in that form, but lasts only for the moment of the duration of the desire.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing" - it is a carte blanche releasement of HIS Love, and it has to be received naturally and not as some special dispensation. It is as though the Golden Shadow has cleared away all obstruction between you and His Love, and you can hear, and really HEAR what is being communicated to the earth plane; now you can really know the full dimensions of His Love, and that all manifestation will take place, independent of your thought and without any effort.
As a sudden heavy rain falls upon a parched desert and is instantly absorbed, so does this descent of spirit come upon you. It instantly changes the nature of the desert and the very seeds already there begin to stir. Something is to take place - "the desert is to blossom as a rose" - because of the downpour of His Love, and because of the Recognition. You are being conditioned to a new dimension.
The Golden Shadow is the Golden Fleece which you have sought for so long and which has been guarded by the Gorgon, with her snaky locks of human devices, ways and means. Upon whomsoever this Golden Shadow rests, something - a quickening, takes place - without effort, and without any of the old ideas of healing and helping. It is entirely impersonal and natural and has nothing at all to do with human thought. Nothing can stay it, nothing can project it; it is a natural movement or urge in the mind of God passing through the temple-body (man) casting the Golden Shadow of Love and doing the things called "miraculous" by its revealing Light.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." Heaven and earth are full of thee - full, pressed down, and running over - there is not one empty vessel left, - even the borrowed ones are full. The Love of God keeps flowing until everything is satisfied. And all the while the Golden Shadow keeps revealing the intensely practical angle of it. It is not a mystical intangible thing, but something to be experienced and something to be handled with the hands and something that causes the wine of inspiration to flow through the body-temple with the rush of a pure mountain torrent. Health is absorbed into the LIFE of GOD, which knows no limitations.
"Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing." You must be ALIVE to participate in this benefit. You have to come out of the tomb of human thinking into the clean, fresh and almost fierce tides of LIFE. You have to be ALIVE in the recognition and the instant response to HIS Voice.
To human thought His word is almost unbearably stimulating, breaking its limitations. The Spirit refuses to be longer held in the narrow confines of the letter. The grandeur, the magnificence of pure Spirit leaves you speechless and bereft of all thought. "Let the earth keep silent before me and renew her strength" - the body, the temple, the earth of you is experiencing the renewing of self-revelation.
You have entered a new mansion where there are "singing masons building roofs of gold."* "Beauty, then is the destiny" ** which begins to shape itself and put to flight the FATE of human thought.
Yes, "thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desires of every living thing." Right now - stay there a moment.
"Not to desire is to have." Can you hear? Walter Lanyon
Beautiful! :dsunny:
2 Cor 5:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
"The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it"
Therefore walk as children of the day :o)
#20 – Dr. E.W. Bullinger, (editor of THE KJV COMPANION BIBLE)
"We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, an all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest heart and subdue the stoutest will."
#21 - A snippet from THE PRESENCE – Walter Lanyon
Do you feel the' Presence and understand what it is to recognize for a moment that nothing----no, not anything -----is to be destroyed, but everything is to be fulfilled with the Love of God which only has to be recognized to change the imagination and shatter the belief that held it into its outline of ugliness?
Formerly we went out to battle with the thing called evil ----now we have reduced it to the vacuum of belief in the absence of God. No matter how rampant it may be, and how destructive in its manifestation, or how terrible in its dimensions----it is in the final analysis the absence of God, and this absence of God can only exist in the imagination,
for God is omnipresent.
"I come not to destroy but to fulfill" will thrill you and relieve you of all the hateful warfare with evil that has been going on------it will bring you to a true understanding of
the non-resistance of the Christ Mind within you and make you understand the height and depth and majesty of this Presence.
It is wonderful-----it is glorious------it causes the Hosannas to rise from the very centre
of your being and magnify the Lord of Lords and Host of Hosts.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
#22 - THE MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD – Gary Siglar
The message for the world today is only one --- that God has reconciled you back to Himself. He didn't just redeem a few. He didn't just forgive a few. He didn't determine that a few would be saved and the rest would be eternally lost. God has a plan that is so perfect and worked out to restore all of mankind back to their source.
If you understand that no matter where you are today God chose you, before the foundation of the world, that you would be holy and without blame before Him in love. If you can believe this simple word you will rejoice.
I know the condition of carnal humanity. I know the condition of some people who love God. I know the carnal condition that most of us are in. The truth is --- and the truth will set you free --- you are holy, unblameable, and irreprovable in His sight. Not in your carnal adamic life, but in Christ. Christ is holy, unblemished, and undefiled. If you can accept that you will be that experientially. If you can't accept that you won't yet experience it but you still will eventually as God brings you into the knowledge of your true identity.
God has never, ever, made one human being that will fail except for a good purpose, because He works all things after the counsel of His own will. Known by God are all His works from beginning unto end.
Gary Sigler
http://sigler.org/
#23 - Child Sacrifice in Christianity? Yep!! Watch:
Christian Molech Worship by Tentmaker Ministries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuhBdWbJXQ
.....AS GOD BRINGS YOU INTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR TRUE IDENTITY. EXACTLY! OUR TRUE IDENTITY IS HIM!
JUST LIKE HIM! OUR NATURAL SPIRITUAL STATE IS LOVE........MAN IS HAPPIEST WHEN LOVING AND BEING LOVED IN RETURN
THIS IS WITTNESSED TO EVEN NOW IN OUR FLESHLY STATE.
#24 - My wife Helen and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
#25 - HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
A recently published book that shows why Gerry believes that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
#26 - ANNIHILATION
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):
A writing by Gary Amirault specifically refuting the arguments that seemingly support the idea that the Bible teaches annihilation and showing that the Bible teaches universal salvation instead.
One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
INTRODUCTION
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
An exposition in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED? (chapters three and four)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor
I see you have a vast library.
"When the love of power is replaced with the power of love, others may also see the light."
Peacemaker (aka, Jerwade)
Thank you Rodger for your diligence in spreading the Good News. You are appreciated.
2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word; be earnest in season, out of season, convict, rebuke, exhort, in all long-suffering and teaching
be ready always to give an answer to every man who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear 1 Peter 3:15
#27 - GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
If you have been devastated by spiritual abuse this online book is for you.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO SUPPOSED SCRIPTURE ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RESPONSES TO PHILISOPHICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
#28 - Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 76 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about "eternal hell" nearly always gets bogged down with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY – G.T. Stevenson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
Also see THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
I agree, Rodger. It seems like people often just believe what they want to despite being presented with evidence to the contrary simply because they've been taught a certain doctrine since they were young. I think most people seem to be afraid to open their minds and consider alternatives in life because they think it's easier to just go with the programming they're used to. That's a shame, but it's understandable. I think it's especially difficult when we receive persecution from fellow believers who haven't accepted the truth of universal reconciliation, but all we can do is just keep speaking the truth from the inspired written word of God. When Christ was confronted by Satan in the wilderness, he just kept saying, "It is written..." in response to Satan's deception even when Satan himself quoted scripture. I'm sorry you had to suffer for so long before you found peace, but I'm glad you finally became aware of the truth to give you peace. God bless you, brother, for your continuous flow of good information on the forum.
ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE
Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
If you have been devastated by spiritual abuse this online book is for you.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm (the author, Charles Slagle's personal website containing many other good writings about the subject)
Or
Information they probably won't have you study in "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" Bible schools. Your teachers will probably declare the following information to be heresy, and they probably won't have you study
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
Or
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
Or
CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
Or
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED? (If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn't hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son's death and resurrection, through the power in the blood that He shed for us on His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That's the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that's the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH ---
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I'm 76 years old
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 76 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. Information they probably won't have you study in "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" Bible schools. Your teachers will probably declare the following information to be heresy, and they probably won't have you study
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Restitution%20of%20All%20Things/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE - Thomas Kissinger
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/christian-universalism-forum/10-reasons-not-to-believe-in-eternal-torment/
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
24. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
25. GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE – Adlai Loudy
http://www.secret-evangel.site90.net/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm
26. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
27. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE - Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/outcome.html
THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm
REQUIRED READING
IMO the following should be required reading for all Bible school students.
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED!
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
WHAT CHRISTIANS BELIEVE TODAY – FOUR VIEWS
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
Copy and paste the links into your browser if necessary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
OPPOSERS REFUTED
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
If necessary, copy and paste the links into your browser.
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/answering-matt-slick's-article-against-universalism/msg28882/#msg28882
Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Hal Lindsey
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm
Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html
W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html
A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD'S TRUTH FOR TODAY LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html
and
IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism down through the centuries. Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
also see
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/Church-History.html
THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm
answers to hundreds of questions raised by partialists about universal reconciliation:
http://www.urqa.com/
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Amen, brother.
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Amen, brother.
"'vivify,' make alive, (from the Greek 'zoopoieo'), used in a special sense, of the return of the spirit, as resurrection is of the body and rousing of the soul, from death, giving life beyond the reach of death, conferring immortality." (Greek-English Keyword Concordance)
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
A snippet from 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
(another book in my hard copy UR library)
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
A.E. KNOCH
One of the great Christian Biblical Universal Salvationists of the last century was A.E. Knoch, author of the book ALL IN ALL.
My attitude towards the frequent warnings by believers in eternal torment or annihilation is summed up beautifully by his response.
A critic who believed in eternal torment said, "Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." (End quote) A.E. Knoch
Amen
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
Quoted from A SOUTHERN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH HISTORY
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism;
I now think entirely differently.
It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard.
There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard.
I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it, and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it."
Abraham Lincoln
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said,
"The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend."
God always does things "the best way." :dsunny:
:dsunny:
Beautiful.
I remember reading how President Lincoln would carry his important papers in his top hat, or whatever they called it back then. His was rather tall! :)
Yeah, I've read before that old Abe was a believer in universal reconciliation.
AGNOSTIC
I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, trying to treat other people the same way that I would like to treated by them and hope for the best after I die, than to put my trust in a book that teaches that God will allow anyone to choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering. Rodger Tutt
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
Writer Somerset Maugham, after his parents' deaths, spent a few stultifying years in his uncle's vicarage. Later, in his teens at a boarding-school, having lost his belief in the existence of God said: "The whole horrible structure, based not on the love of God, but on the fear of eternal hell, tumbled down like a house of cards." Quote source: The Secret Lives of Somerset Maugham by Selina Hastings
We are so constituted that we believe the most incredible things; and, once they are engraved upon the memory, woe to him who would endeavor to erase them. Goethe
There is a germ of religion in human nature so strong that whenever an order of men can persuade the people by flattery or terror that they have salvation at their disposal, there can be no end to fraud, violence or usurpation. John Adams
:thumbsup:
AION – AIONIOS
HOW ETERNITY SLIPPED IN
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God's plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words ("ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world.") to translate this one word.
And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as "ages."
Talk about confusion compounded!
Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God's truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God's glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
"In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).".
Dean Hough
Roger, I agree about "aion" and "aionion," but I think "aidion" is better translated as "imperceptible" rather than "eternal" as it is in the Concordant Version in Romans 1:20 and Jude 1:6. See the attachment.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Tom on May 15, 2015, 04:20:31 PM
Roger, I agree about "aion" and "aionion," but I think "aidion" is better translated as "imperceptible" rather than "eternal" as it is in the Concordant Version in Romans 1:20 and Jude 1:6. See the attachment.
Thanks for your input Tom.AIONIOS
Although there are at least fifteen translations that translate aion/aionios literally instead of interpretively, the most popular versions are translated interpretively.
Why did God allow the most popular versions of His written word to be interpretively translated instead of literally translated?
In my opinion the reason is the same reason why God allows all other evils to temporarily prevail, and that is because He is eventually going to make it better for everyone that He did so.
Probably, God could not have allowed a better foil of contrast of evil versus good than to let His written word be mistranslated. Against the black background of the theological false doctrines of never ending suffering or annihilation God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that can never fail, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote
"In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).".
Dean Hough
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Very good post with much valuable insight. I have read those articles on the tentmaker website and gained much from them. I especially like your contrasting literally translated and not interpretively translated).
:thumbsup:
ALL IN ALL – A.E. Knoch
A.E. Knoch's book ALL IN ALL
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of A.E Knoch's ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments Don used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
Regarding the book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch. In spite of the claim that there are contradictions in it, and in spite of "cult-buster" Don Hewey's other attempts to discredit it, (arguments to which Richard Condon has responded), ALL IN ALL remains, in my opinion, one of the best of all the many books that I have read in support of the Bible teaching universal transformation.
Don Hewey is a believer in the inspiration of the King James Version. When he accuses A.E. Knoch of "contradicting the Bible," in many cases what he really means is that A.E. Knoch contradicts the KJV, because the Concordant Translation does not rely on the Received Text from which the KJV was translated. Don Hewey therefore also attacks the RSV, the NIV, and other modern translations. For this reason much of what Don writes just doesn't make any sense.
As far as Knoch calling the life that Lazarus will be raised to as it being eonian and unending, it is both. Lazarus will have unending life and that life will allow him to live through the oncoming eons which is called '"eonian life."
But even if Don Hewey's criticisms had any merit, (and Richard Condon proves they don't), they would still not detract from the fact that this book proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments he used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/
The entire book on the subject of the Bible teaching universal salvation can be read here
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
Introduction:
The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ's cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God's purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). "In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col.1:19,20)
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 15, 2015, 03:04:14 PM
AION – AIONIOS
HOW ETERNITY SLIPPED IN
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God's plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words ("ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world.") to translate this one word.
And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as "ages."
Talk about confusion compounded!
Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God's truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God's glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
"In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).".
Dean Hough
Greetings,
In these two .pdf files I have put hyperlinks to the footnotes, and also return hyperlinks to the place the cursor was clicked. It helps navigating around without losing ones place.
Please fell free to offer to others if you wish [librarian?]...
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/aion-aionios-rev.hanson.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/freespirit/Prevailing-Universalism/PrevailingUniversalism.pdf
PEACE
Thanks lastpost. :thumbsup:
ALL
A snippet from The Inescapable Love of God, Pages 59, 60, by Thomas Talbott:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32).
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15:22).
In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first "all" seems to determine the scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserts in Romans 5:18 that Christ's one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all, he evidently has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation; when he insists in Romans 11:32 that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in, disobedience; and finally, when he asserts in I Corinthians 15:22 that "all shall be made alive" in Christ, he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam. The grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it only if you are prepared to reject what is right before your eyes."
Does "All" mean "All"?
http://hopebeyondhell.org/
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_how_eternity_slipped_in.htm
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 18, 2015, 06:11:27 PM
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_how_eternity_slipped_in.htm
Thanks for sharing that web site Micah. Very interesting. :banana:
In that web site mention is made of pleroma, which I believe is an incredible word having to do with God's attribute and plan.
Quote from: joeteekay on May 18, 2015, 06:29:10 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 18, 2015, 06:11:27 PM
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_how_eternity_slipped_in.htm
Thanks for sharing that web site Micah. Very interesting. :banana:
In that web site mention is made of pleroma, which I believe is an incredible word having to do with God's attribute and plan.
:thumbsup:
Yes, indeed. Pleroma is one of my favorite words in the scripture, right up there with ephipania, musterion, and anakepholaomai :o)
ANATHEMA
http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/condemned.htm
Regarding the word "anathema," I repeat NO other English translation had the nerve to put "eternally" into these phrases in Galatians. Why? Because there is no word in these two sentences that remotely refers to eternity. The NIV translators simply took the liberty of injecting their own beliefs in eternal damnation into this passage without a shred of support from the Greek.
Does the Aramaic word "anathema" carry behind it the idea of people being endlessly tortured and separated from God? In Acts 23:14 a group of Jews put themselves under a curse; they would eat no food until they killed Paul. Do you really think these men, asked to be eternally tortured and estranged from God forever if they failed to kill Paul? Hardly! When Paul wished that he himself was accursed for the sake of his kinsmen after the flesh, do you really think he would allow himself to burn in a Hell forever if it would save his kinsmen? That's ridiculous. Paul taught no such thing. The apostle to the nations, never used any of the words some translations translated Hell.
(Since the writing of this article, it has been pointed out to me, the Amplified Bible has also chosen to put "doomed to eternal punishment" in Galatians 1:8. I repeat, in the Greek text behind this verse there is no word that means "eternal" in this verse. It is added by the translators of these two Bible translations.)
THE MYSTERY OF GOD – Gerard Winstanley
"Christ Jesus will deliver all mankind out of bondage. This I see to be a truth by testimony of Scripture, as God is pleased to teach me. But this mystery of God is not to be done all at once, but in several dispensations, some whereof are past, some are in being, and some are yet to come. The whole creation of mankind, which is God's work, shall be delivered from corruption, bondage, death, and pain. Mankind shall be by Christ reconciled to his Maker and be made one in spirit with Him; i.e. the curse shall be removed, and the power of it killed and consumed.
Truly this is according to the current of the whole Scriptures, that everyone shall be made of one heart and one spirit, i.e. that all shall be brought to obey the Father, walk humbly before Him, and live in peace and love in Him. This is the doctrine of Christ and the gospel. This is glad tidings to hear of. When you are made to enjoy this doctrine as yours, then you shall know what it is to know the Son, and what it is to be set free by the Son."
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means 'pruning' and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing."
Bro, I've checked out a lot of versions of scripture, and I finally decided to read the Concordant Version because it doesn't use "eternal" about anything especially "hell," and it doesn't use "hell" either. Some folks don't like the Concordant Version because of the literal language or because they're offended by the author's thoughts about various things, but I think it's the translation that is most accurate at revealing the true meaning of the ancient text even though I realize there is no perfect translation because something is always lost in translation. I have no stock in the Concordant Publishing Concern. I'm just a friend, but I haven't seen another version of scripture yet that has made me want to start using it instead. I'm too burnt-out to try to learn Greek. So I rely on what seems to be the best English translation available. I also use the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer to compare the Concordant Version with the King James Version, Young's Literal Translation, and an ultra-literal translation. I think Young's Literal Translation comes closest to the Concordant Version, but I think the Concordant Version is better. That's just my personal opinion though. So I say check it out for yourself folks. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The English reads different than your King James, but it's more true to the original manuscripts.
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
I agree Tom - :iagree:
A Word to the Elect
ANNE BRONTE
You may rejoice to think yourselves secure;
You may be grateful for the gift divine --
That grace unsought, which made your black hearts pure,
And fits your earth-born souls in Heaven to shine.
But, is it sweet to look around, and view
Thousands excluded from that happiness,
Which they deserved, at least, as much as you, --
Their faults not greater, nor their virtues less?
And, wherefore should you love your God the more,
Because to you alone his smiles are given;
Because he chose to pass the many o'er,
And only bring the favoured few to Heaven?
And, wherefore should your hearts more grateful prove,
Because for ALL the Saviour did not die?
Is yours the God of justice and of love
And are your bosoms warm with charity?
Say, does your heart expand to all mankind?
And, would you ever to your neighbour do --
The weak, the strong, the enlightened, and the blind -
As you would have your neighbour do to you?
And, when you, looking on your fellow-men,
Behold them doomed to endless misery,
How can you talk of joy and rapture then? --
May God withhold such cruel joy from me!
That none deserve eternal bliss I know;
Unmerited the grace in mercy given:
But, none shall sink to everlasting woe,
That have not well deserved the wrath of Heaven.
And, Oh! there lives within my heart
A hope, long nursed by me;
(And, should its cheering ray depart,
How dark my soul would be!)
That as in Adam all have died,
In Christ shall all men live;
And ever round his throne abide,
Eternal praise to give.
That even the wicked shall at last
Be fitted for the skies;
And, when their dreadful doom is past,
To life and light arise.
I ask not, how remote the day,
Nor what the sinner's woe,
Before their dross is purged away;
Enough for me, to know
That when the cup of wrath is drained,
The metal purified,
They'll cling to what they once disdained,
And live by Him that died.
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
Absolutely beautiful poem. I have had similar thoughts, but not as eloquent. Even vessels of dishonor will be used to reveal the riches of God's grace. No need to worry. This is mankind's future. God will not lose one, and as I have read, all will be brought into the Father's house of love and comfort. With groaning I wait.
APOLLUMI
apollumi, FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE, lose, destroy, perish
The concept of finality is by no means inherent in apollumi. Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the apollumi". Romans 9:21, 18:
Mt 2:13 seeking the little Boy to destroy Him."
5:29 that one of your members should perish
:30 that one of your members should perish
8:25 "Lord! Save us! we are perishing!"
9:17 the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are destroyed
10:6 yet rather be going to the lost sheep of the house
:28 able to destroy both the soul and the body in Gehenna
:39 who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account
will be finding it.
:42 should by no means be losing his wages."
12:14 so that they should be destroying Him.
15:24 for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
16:25 should be wanting to save his soul will be destroying it. Yet whoever should be
destroying it
18:14 of these little ones should be perishing.
21:41 Evilly will he be destroying them.
22:7 destroys those murderers and
26:52 shall be destroyed by the sword.
27:20 yet should be destroying Jesus.
Mk 1:24 Did you come to destroy us?
2:22 wine skins will be destroyed---
3:6 that they should be destroying Him.
4:38 Carest Thou not that we are perishing?"
8:35 save his own soul, will be destroying it, yet whoever shall be destroying his soul
9:22 into waters, that it should be destroying him
:41 no means be losing his wages.
11:18 how they should be destroying Him.
12: 9 coming and destroying the farmers
Lu 4:34 Did you come to destroy us?
5:37 wine skins will be destroyed.
6:9 to save a soul or to destroy?"
8:24 "Doctor! Doctor! we are perishing!"
9:24 save his soul shall be destroying it, yet whoever should be destroying his soul
:25 yet destroying or forfeiting himself.
11:51 who perished between the altar and the house.
13:3 you will all be perishing likewise
:5 you will all be perishing similarly
:33 that a prophet be destroyed outside
15:4 sheep, and losing one of them
:4 after that which is lost,
:6 my sheep that was lost!"
:8 if she should be losing one drachma,
:9 I found the drachma which I lose!'
:17 yet I am perishing here of famine!
:24 he was lost and was found.'
:32 and was lost and was found.' "
17:27 the deluge came and destroys them all.
:29 from heaven and destroys them all.
:33 preserve his soul will be destroying it.
:33 yet whoever should be destroying it
19:10 to save that which is lost."
:47 people sought to destroy Him.
20:16 be coming and destroying these farmers.
21:18 your head should by no means perish.
Jn 3:15 Him should not be perishing
:16 into Him should not be perishing,
6:12 that nothing should be lost."
:27 the food which is perishing,
:39 these I should be losing none,
10:10 should be standing and sacrificing and destroying.
:28 should by no means be destroyed for the eon,
11:50 nation should not be destroyed."
12:25 fond of his soul is destroying it,
17:12 and not one of them was destroyed
18: 9 of them I lose not one."
Ac 5:37 and he was destroyed,
Ro 2:12 shall be lost without law.
14:15 destroying that one for whose sake Christ died.
1C 1:18 to those who are being destroyed,
:19 be destroying the wisdom of the wise,
8:11 weak one is being destroyed
10:9 and were destroyed by serpents.
:10 and were destroyed by the exterminator,
15:18 reposing in Christ, were lost
2C 2:15 and in those who are being lost.
4:3 it is covered in those who are lost,
:9 cast down but not destroyed
2Th 2:10 injustice among those who are being destroyed.
Hb 1:11 They shall be destroyed, yet Thou art continuing,
Ja 1:11 the comeliness of its aspect was destroyed.
4:12 is able to save and to destroy.
1P 1:7 than gold which is perishing,
2P 3:6 being deluged by water, was destroyed.
:9 not intending any to be destroyed,
2J 8 should be destroying your work
Ju 5 secondly destroys those who believe not.
11 and they were destroyed in the contradiction of Korah.
Amen, even Sodom and Gomorrah have not been destroyed, or lost, permanently and will even receive more mercy in judgment than those who rejected the evangel.
"As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 1:7)
"And whosoever should not be receiving you, nor yet be hearing your words, coming outside of that house or city or village, shake off the dust from your feet. Verily, I am saying to you, More tolerable will it be for the land of Sodom and the land of Gomorrah in the day of judging than for that city." (Matthew 10:14,15)
But, regardless of the coming judgment of the unjust, scripture makes it clear that God is the savior of all mankind, and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross.
"For this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
ARGUMENTS
I believe that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 76 years old now.
People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/partuniv.html
Quote from: Tom on May 30, 2015, 05:13:52 PM
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/partuniv.html
Thanks for the link Tom.
Augustine and Matthew 25:46
Augustine gave a couple of reasons why he believed it was in vain that some, indeed very many, in his day, believed there was no eternal punishment:
"It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture–but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. " 'God will not forget,' " they say, " 'to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy.' " This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm. But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy," those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, " 'Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment.' " Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: " 'But the righteous into life eternal.' "
(end quote)
It may be that many of the early believers in Augustine's day did "deplore the notion of eternal punishment" by yielding to "human feelings" and reliance upon God's mercy. But, was Augustine correct to quote Matthew 25:46 to support the notion of "eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery''? I say No, he was not.
He is saying that if punishment is temporary then it logically follows that the life for the righteous is temporary as well. But is Matthew 25:31-46 really saying this is about the fate of "damned" vs. the righteous for all eternity? No! This judgment takes place when Christ comes back and sets up His 1000 year kingdom (see also Revelation 20). When Christ comes back (Matt.25:31) He will call the nations to this judgment. They will be judged as to how Christ's brethren were treated. Having faith in Christ or lack thereof is not what they are being judged for. Christ never calls the sheep nations His brothers but He does tell them that they treated His brethren correctly.
Secondly, the "kolasin aionion" or "chastening eonian" which the goat nations must endure is equal in length to the life (zoe aionion/life eonian) in the kingdom which the sheep nations enjoy. When the 1000 year eon ends, both the chastening of the goat nations and the life of the sheep nations end. Then all must appear before the great white throne. The earth is destroyed and I'm sure that some from both groups of the goat and sheep nations will enter into the lake of fire.
But this is not their "eternal" lot, for, one day, death, (the second death) which the lake of fire is called, will be abolished, all will be made alive (be vivified or given immortality), subjected to Christ and God will be All in all, not All in some (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
Augustine, for all his brilliance, was not given to see certain truths in the Scriptures. While he may have been correct to state that the given psalm was meant to pertain to the vessels of mercy, It is too bad that he did not see the truth of Romans 11:32 how that God should be merciful in the future to those who are enemies to the evangel and stubborn now.
Tony Nungesser
http://www.saviourofall.org/2003Newsletters/42003Augustine.html
From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to use your "free" will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
Butch Cassidy
To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."
But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "
I agree Rodger.
Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 06:45:19 PM
I agree Rodger.
:thumbsup:
CHARLES SLAGLE
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 76 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.
If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.
After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?
Most of the extreme developments of systematic theology surround these simple questions about why God would create billions of souls and either
1) Choose most of them to burn forever
2) Allow most of them to choose to burn forever.
The real reason for teaching Eternal Torment is to keep people bound, through fear, in the exclusive religions of man.
I see the Salvation of All in the scriptures as being simply demonstrated to either view.
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 17, 2015, 12:29:57 PM
Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 06:45:19 PM
I agree Rodger.
:thumbsup:
CHARLES SLAGLE
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 76 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle
:iagree:
I found this website with some articles and read them all:
http://sigler.org/slagle/
Are there any more? Or do you mean these books: http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Slagle/e/B001IXMK3I
Quote from: Abigail on June 17, 2015, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 17, 2015, 12:29:57 PM
Quote from: Tom on June 16, 2015, 06:45:19 PM
I agree Rodger.
:thumbsup:
CHARLES SLAGLE
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 76 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle
:iagree:
I found this website with some articles and read them all:
http://sigler.org/slagle/
Are there any more? Or do you mean these books: http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Slagle/e/B001IXMK3I
That first link is the one I was referring to Abigail.
I hope you enjoyed those articles as much as I did. :-)
I wasn't aware of the Amazon link.
Thanks for your input Tom.
THE FOLLOWING IS BY BRIAN ON CITY-DATA CHRISTIAN FORUM
pcamps has been very scripturally bringing us back to the fact that God is not holding men's sins against them. Can you believe it? Can God just forgive people freely? Is that fair? Is that "just??"
Well, it's not only fair. It's GRACE!!
Now, from this link here: Sovereignty Scriptures
I was truly blessed this morning.
Here's what I feel the LORD was showing me this morning, verse-by-verse:
Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now many refers to the whole world. Just as the "many" in Romans 5 refers to all mankind, so here too, many are indeed called by God, in God's time. However, only a few are chosen in this life (such as Paul the apostle) to declare His Grace and His Glory to the world.
Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
When God makes the sinner to hear His word, He causes the man to be converted and healed. Without this intervention of God directly in a person's life, there can be no healing and conversion. God does it all, in His time. When one person is "saved," that's God at work. If a person is "not saved," it's simply that God is not yet doing work in that person.
Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.
Again, it is GOD who TURNS us AWAY from our sin. He does it in His time. It is an active work on His part, and until He works in the individual, that person can do nothing.
Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.
See that? God added the Law on purpose, in order to increase the transgression. Do you believe that God is for us? If you do, then you must know by now that God increased transgression, in order that His grace would supercede it. It's all GOD's doing!! Praise God!
Let's continue:
Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Here again we see clearly, that justification is God's gift, brought in by His Own Hand, and has been extended to ALL mankind. That includes Hitler and Bundy, like it or not!
Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Yes, God made vessels of wrath. But He doesn't show His wrath on them, but brings them unto salvation by grace, according to His timing.
11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.
Here is God's final plan. He has made all people sinners, in order to have mercy upon them all! His grace is what saves us, not any works we have done. It is G-R-A-C-E which He bestows upon each sinner, one-by-one, reviving each one as He sees fit!
Grace means that man has no part in it whatsoever. Grace means that, one day, God comes to you and draws you unto Him, giving you conversion and healing. It is by grace that we are saved. As He called Saul, so He will do to each one, in His own time.
Praise God!!
I hope someone out there can hear this!!
Blessings,
Brian
A little more on grace:
Jesus told His disciples that no one would be able to come to Him without the Father's drawing power. (Like a spiritual tractor beam..)
ET denys this. ET says that man can draw himself to God at any time. But that is not scriptural. Grace means that it is God's doing, not man's. Here's more:
Quote:
"Lk. 8:10 To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables; in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand."
God purposely opens the eyes of some people, and blinds other people. Why? To show His Grace in His time!
Quote:
"Lk. 10:21-22 No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Here again, Jesus shows us plainly that it is the decision of the Father and the Son, not man.
Quote:
"Mk. 4:10-12 To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables.... lest they return again and be forgiven."
Question: Have you repented and been forgiven?? If yes, then you must know that it was GOD who made you to understand it. Men who have not been drawn yet do not understand that they have been forgiven! Hallelujah! BUT, when the Father DRAWS you, He spontaneously converts and forgives and heals you!! It is HIS doing, not man's. This is what is so important to understand. Otherwise, you cannot understand what is meant by God's grace.
Quote:
"Jn. 6:65 For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Does the Father "grant" it to everyone? Yes, but not at the same time! That's why some are saved now. "Many are called, but few are chosen." That doesn't mean that most are rejected! That means that a few are chosen in this life. But all are called eventually.
Quote:
"Jn. 12:32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself."
Here's the promise! Jesus will indeed draw all men. Some now, the rest later. Count on it!
Quote:
"Jn. 17:2 Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give life eonian."
Does Jesus have authority over all mankind? YES, and He knows how to use it to our advantage, folks! It's called GRACE!
Quote:
"Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."
Did God do something here without man's permission?!? YES! He BLESSED us by turning us from our wickedness!
Does that include Ted Bundy?? YES! (But Bundy didn't know it, poor fellow.. But by now he probably already knows it! )
THAT is God's GRACE. He reveals His Power to us individually, according to when He so chooses. Individually. And when He does, we are set free!
Quote:
"Acts 11:18 God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Repentance IS GRANTED, NOT CHOSEN. By GRACE we are saved. God's decision, NOT ours!
Quote:
"Acts 18:27 On arriving, he [Paul] was a great help to those who by grace had believed."
and this:
Quote:
"Acts 16:14 And the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
Now do you see it???? Oh, I do hope so!!!
Blessings of God's grace to all!!!
Brian
Men are afraid of God. And death.
Why?
Because they haven't yet been shown by the Father that they have been blessed with Life! And when He draws them to Himself, they will automatically convert and be revived from the dead! All this, by God's grace!
Jesus told the centurion that he would be "thrust down to hell." Was he? I believe he was. But not in the afterlife, but while on Earth, when he saw people receiving God's grace to know Life! What Life? Eternal Life? It is a quality of life. And others were receiving it, and he was tormented because he was not yet drawn by the Father.
But when the Father decides to draw him individually, he will spontaneously repent, be healed and revived into that same Eternal Life.
All according to God's grace.
May God's grace touch each of us today!
Brian
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker...Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD'S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://web.archive.org/liveweb/http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/
IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/liveweb/http://web.archive.org/web/20110702091239/http://gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, "I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it's what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer." That's why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
I'm 76 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
Don't kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
Infant Salvation
Believers in eternal torment are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few", also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin said, "There are babies a span long in hell".
Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if evangelicals are right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies' eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 102 year old Dad often says, "That's what makes Him God!"
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!
* Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!
IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30. God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.
Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 17, 2015, 06:15:30 PM
The real reason for teaching Eternal Torment is to keep people bound, through fear, in the exclusive religions of man. :iagree:
I agree with this, eaglesway.
I also think that many people look at ET and ED as the way things should be.....partly because it has been taught that way, and has permeated our thoughts, collectively, almost since the early Christians, and partly because, when we think in the flesh, this paradigm seems to suit our earthly sense of 'fairness'.
Sometimes, I read articles that say, why do we need to evangelize, if we are all eventually going to heaven? This makes no sense to me. Shouldn't everyone know about God's love,
now, or as soon as possible? God pours His everlasting love on us, and gave us His Son, who died for us. He created us, sustains us, gave us the Story of Salvation in the Bible, gives us all good things, and on and on. Our response should be to just want to love Him, simply for being who He is......not thinking whether or not we
need to love Him, for our own benefits. If that is the way people think it should be, then what kind of love do we promote for God....or even the concept of what love is? How we will then love one another?
'Love never fails'. It is looking like that is going to become my 'slogan'. Simple, to the point, and very clear. :Gclap:
1 John 4:18 - 19
...18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us.
The above quote is also starting to take on a whole new meaning for me. A very Christian UR meaning, if you know what I mean. Do any of you see it this way, too? :cheerleader:
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 20, 2015, 02:07:26 PM
Infant Salvation
Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies' eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 102 year old Dad often says, "That's what makes Him God!"
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!
* Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!
Very funny, yet tragically 'logical' rodgertutt!
I am a very, very new convert to Christian UR, of only a few weeks, but, more and more, I am seeing the need for getting this view out there.
I also am realizing the implications, more and more, of doing so.
Good thing I was never an 'in the box' person, anyway. It makes it easier for me to be willing to take risks with this. Still, quite a challenge, however. I can think of more than a few friends, who will be alientated, and/ or thinking I have lost my mind....or even better, now going to Hell! :LH:
ITCHING EARS
Sometimes believers in eternal torment and annihilation like to say that 2Tim. 4:3&4 about a time coming when people will have "itching ears" and will turn to believing myths or fables, refers to believers in universal salvation.
But I think it refers to believers in eternal torment and annihilation instead because most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation.
ETers and ANers like to have their itching ears scratched by listening to sermons based on the myth or fable that only people who believe like they do before they die are going to avoid suffering forever in "hell" or be annihilated.
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT
My wife Helen and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
or
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/
JACOB AND ESAU
http://blogs.christianpost.com/engaging-the-culture/jacob-i-loved-esau-i-hated-8030/
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 24, 2015, 01:50:39 PM
JACOB AND ESAU
http://blogs.christianpost.com/engaging-the-culture/jacob-i-loved-esau-i-hated-8030/
I love the fact being RODGER ..........
You share so much !! reminds me of Finelinen '' in his time'' ... a beloved brother in the Lord like you !! :HeartThrob:
God always supplies,,, the faithful regular distributors of His word
The LORD BLESSED a discovery of Jacob and Esau to me many years ago that I have never forgotten and GODS WORD IS ENDLESS applying for all and for all times............. being that we are here and faith pleases God !! It moves mountains and raises the dead to life again and makes a plain a highway
for easier travel and walking in the Spirit . All though '''Jesus Christ '' the BODY OF LIFE ..
But to the point here on the
twins ........... just as the twins of Cain and Abel , We can see a pattern representing the good and evil in everyone [men as trees walking ] Mark 8 ;24 and making the tree good and its fruit good
Esau (ISO 259-3 ʕeśaw ; Greek: Ἡσαῦ Hēsau ; Arabic: عِيسُو 'Īsaw ; meaning "Hairy" or "Rough"), in the Jewish Bible, is the
older son of Isaac.
hunter Jacob being
the younger and the smooth skinned man and heel supplanter [holder catcher ] That supplants, undermines
, the heel sheep herder and the one whom
lifts up his heel against ME being the very thing that JESUS SAID would happen .. as we see in the old as Jacob and Esau ,,
Jacob to me represents the Spirit within a man whom the first is the carnal and beastly man [Esau] representing all flesh and we know no FLESH pleases God [ God hates Esau ?] no good thing in the flesh it profits nothing is actually the body of death ] dead know nothing about God .. darkness , night , grave etc , many examples of the flesh
and We also know that faith is what does please God by the Spirit in a man , and Jacob is that man whom was the Christ or anointed one for that time to prove the younger being the spiritual man born last would rule as first and the first being Esau would loose his place [birthright] as ruler
the first shall be last and the last shall be first , Spirit ruling over the flesh [ cain was warned of this sin lying at the door to enslave him, but should dominate it , I see killing his brother Abel as destroying his spiritual breath self '' himself '' making him a slave to the sin nature ...
I can see this in every human born on the earth whom is conceived of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and what they have represented throughout the old testament
JESUS CHRIST represents the tree of Life growing within us all
I know this may sound odd to some , But the Bible is very much our example
the WORD OF GOD testifies of Jesus Christ and we can see Him in the Spirit in every called man to serve the LIVING GOD from the beginning to the end and it is Love being what conquers all .... :HeartThrob:
I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM ISAAC AND JACOB , THE GOD OF THE LIVING , and not the dead ...
Thanks rosered :HeartThrob:
John 3:16
DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?" http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
DRAW / DRAG?
In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
I believe yes, He will draw them. The love of God expressed in Christ crucified is the love song that woos the entire universe into His fold.
"Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"
"Behold, I am making all things new"
:iagree: The overwhelming LOVE of God, is what will cause all to surrender gladly
God Himself is the source of all Love.
Love conquers all , the gift of Jesus Christ being sent to mankind proves it .
QuoteIt would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.)
All will know , for me , dying in the physical death is not the end all , but actually the beginning of knowing the Love of God in His fulness [true birthing out of the earth ] and discovering what a true,'' new creature in Christ '' really is and means and KNOWN
The real binding and loosing will be complete in God
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1Corinthians 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8
Love never fails. I love it that GOD would not expect this from us if it were not possible to achieve
and Knowing He would never expect anything less than to complete this in us ,
and We KNOW HE IS COMPLETE AND PERFECT IN LOVE :HeartThrob:
Always considering the source of all power is of Him by HOLY SPIRIT
Mark 12 "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel:
The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
There is no commandment greater than these." 1 John 4 God's Love and Ours
7 Dear friends, let us love one another,
for love comes from God.
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9 This is how God showed his love among us:
He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another,
God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us:
He has given us of his Spirit.
14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
17
This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment:
In this world we are like Jesus.
18 There is no fear in love.
But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.
20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar.
For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
Quote from: rosered on June 27, 2015, 12:53:49 PM
:iagree: The overwhelming LOVE of God, is what will cause all to surrender gladly
God Himself is the source of all Love.
Love conquers all , the gift of Jesus Christ being sent to mankind proves it .
QuoteIt would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.)
All will know , for me , dying in the physical death is not the end all , but actually the beginning of knowing the Love of God in His fulness [true birthing out of the earth ] and discovering what a true," new creature in Christ " really is and means and KNOWN
The real binding and loosing will be complete in God
I love it that GOD would not expect this from us if it were not possible to achieve
and Knowing He would never expect anything less than to complete this in us ,
and We KNOW HE IS COMPLETE AND PERFECT IN LOVE :HeartThrob:
:iagree: :banana:
Yes, rosered! Thank you!
Beautiful!
When we encounter Christ, face to face, we will not only be convinced of his sovereignty, if we are not already, but we will feel His tremendous love for us.....and truly appreciate the sacrifice He made for us, on Calvary!
LOVE NEVER FAILS!
Psalm 139 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
139 To the Overseer. -- A Psalm by David. Jehovah, Thou hast searched me, and knowest.
2 Thou -- Thou hast known my sitting down, And my rising up, Thou hast attended to my thoughts from afar.
3 My path and my couch Thou hast fanned, And [with] all my ways hast been acquainted.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, Lo, O Jehovah, Thou hast known it all!
5 Behind and before Thou hast besieged me, And Thou dost place on me Thy hand.
6 Knowledge too wonderful for me, It hath been set on high, I am not able for it.
7 Whither do I go from Thy Spirit? And whither from Thy face do I flee?
8 If I ascend the heavens -- there Thou [art], And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!
9 I take the wings of morning, I dwell in the uttermost part of the sea,
10 Also there Thy hand doth lead me, And Thy right hand doth hold me.
11 And I say, `Surely darkness bruiseth me, Then night [is] light to me.
12 Also darkness hideth not from Thee, And night as day shineth, as [is] darkness so [is] light.
13 For Thou -- Thou hast possessed my reins, Thou dost cover me in my mother's belly.
14 I confess Thee, because that [with] wonders I have been distinguished. Wonderful [are] Thy works, And my soul is knowing [it] well.
15 My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth.
16 Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them.
17 And to me how precious have been Thy thoughts, O God, how great hath been their sum!
18 I recount them! than the sand they are more, I have waked, and I am still with Thee.
19 Dost Thou slay, O God, the wicked? Then, men of blood, turn aside from me!
20 Who exchange Thee for wickedness, Lifted up to vanity [are] Thine enemies.
21 Do not I hate, Jehovah, those hating Thee? And with Thy withstanders grieve myself?
22 [With] perfect hatred I have hated them, Enemies they have become to me.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart, Try me, and know my thoughts,
24 And see if a grievous way be in me, And lead me in a way age-during!
Exodus 33:
19 And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
21 Then the Lord said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
Our incredible God.....who never fails us; who is with us always.....deserving about all else to be loved, and who loves us, with an everlasting love. To Him, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess......
Amen! :Peace2:
Very good point about draw vs. drag.
Love draws, does not drag.
Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Amen Dandi ! and thanks to you all
God bless you all :HeartThrob:
I also believe that if anyone can look deeply and long enough into the Eyes of Christ, then they will see there that His Love is so completely overwhelming that by the very all-powerful nature of His Love, such a thing as forgiveness not only ceases to have any meaning from His side, but that it becomes unreasonable from an unbiased point of view to think of One who is Divine Love actually harbouring the trivial pettiness of withholding forgiveness from a child created through Himself.
The concept of Forgiveness is given, in my opinion, for the sake of human beings who need to learn how to forgive each other, and also to draw closer to an understanding of the Endless Complete Love of God, because they cannot properly entertain the state of never needing to forgive another because their love covers everything for those they love, and that this love never changes.
Being accustomed to traditional human conceptions, it might help to picture a mother looking down upon the new born child she holds lovingly in her arms, then to think of all such love given by all mothers - and then to amass that love together in one, then to contribute that love as a whole to Christ and how He feels towards the life that was brought into being through Him. In such a scenario where Love Himself is concerned, in my opinion, the giving or the withholding of forgiveness is merely an academic point of discussion.
As I see it, man must learn by stages. Man can only progress to the New by finding something of the Old there with which he is familiar and with which he can assess the New. And so it is, I believe, with the understanding of a Divine Love which far surpasses man's present ability - with his easily shaken temperament over the smallest of things which can not only destroy relationships but which can even start violence - to take in.
Peace
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
Quote from: joeteekay on June 27, 2015, 05:09:20 PM
Very good point about draw vs. drag.
Love draws, does not drag.
Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Well the dragging has been gentile.
:LH:
I think that we give permission to be dragged as well. Lord help where I can not help myself, I'm willing to drop doctrines that get in the way. We get dragged along because we seek it.
I guess I prefer dragged over draw, because I know I'm hardheaded and slow.
I expect it to get a little rough, and that is ok..............love has teeth, as I've heard it said.
Quote from: ed on June 28, 2015, 04:30:20 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on June 27, 2015, 05:09:20 PM
Very good point about draw vs. drag.
Love draws, does not drag.
Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Well the dragging has been gentile.
:LH:
I think that we give permission to be dragged as well. Lord help where I can not help myself, I'm willing to drop doctrines that get in the way. We get dragged along because we seek it.
I guess I prefer dragged over draw, because I know I'm hardheaded and slow.
I expect it to get a little rough, and that is ok..............love has teeth, as I've heard it said.
"I think that we give permission to be dragged as well."
No, we YIELD....there is no permission needed... as though we have a say in it [the drawing/dragging.] :2c:
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 17, 2015, 12:29:57 PM
CHARLES SLAGLE
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 76 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle
I didn't go nuts over the doctrine of hell, in fact I had finally come to feel pretty secure for myself by the time I was about 60. But that doctrine had bugged me all my life, never able to feel 100% sure. When I finally came to know that God is love and love never fails and cared for everyone in the world as a Father should I was so so happy and relieved. At that time Charles Slagle was the one I loved reading the most. I cried and laughed and all kinds of things I don't usually do. Thanks for posting this again.
ELECTION
Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement.
Eventually everyone will be saved.
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " - E.G.Jones
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-in-all.htm
At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the 'potential' savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.
Don Bast
THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
"Love conquers all, for it is the love of God that allows humanity to see its frailty that in the bitter dregs it may choose life. I thank the Lord that the plan of redemption wasn't a stop gap measure but a well thought out plan that in the fullness of time, all will have Christ as their head. Victory in Jesus!
Before creation there was no time. Since creation there has been time. But with the consummation of things and God becoming All in all, time will end, and sin, which is limited by time shall end. Yet, God and creation shall go on.
If God cannot surmount the evil in the world and turn it all into good, then there is a power equal and opposite to Him. But sin isn't eternal. The cross of Calvary isn't a 'hope so' move by God, but rather, a well conceived thought out solution to the problem of sin. There is an end to sin and to the death it causes. All shall be swallowed up into victory. Some, God has planned to accept Him now. Others, like Pharaoh, He hardens their heart. But being a righteous Judge He will show wrath on those who need it to cleanse them of their fallen nature.
The plan of God is such that His grace, that unmerited favor, will cause man and all of creation to be restored The mercy and love of God is to be so revealed that Jesus shall be All in all.
The purpose for the present is to save some. The purpose for the future is to save all. Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Even he who dies in sin shall be saved as by fire. Victorious grace covers a larger redemption than many would consider."
ESPECIALLY
GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God 'is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the 'all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
'To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' "
"eternal damnation"
The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez.16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
A snippet from
Etymology of the Word "Damn"
The words "damn" and "Hell" are among favorite words spoken by theologians of the "hell-fire" type.
Let us look into the etymology of this word "damn." We may find some interesting surprises.
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-EtymologyOfTheWordDamn.html
Fantastic article. Everyone should read it. it should be required reading if there were such a thing.
Thank you, rodgertutt and eaglesway, for giving us, and encouraging us to read that article. I also really enjoyed your list under: eternal damnation, rodgertutt.
Yet more of the pieces put together, to form a very different picture from the one most of us grew up with.
:Gclap:
EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW
Does the subjection of all under Christ's feet involve forced submission? 1 Cor. 15:20-28. Not at all; first, we see that Christ will subject Himself to His Father. The same word is used because the same action is described; willing and worshipful submission. This is underscored in Phil. 2:9-11, where all bow IN the name of Jesus, a name meaning "God saves". How is it that every tongue will be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord? No one is able to say 'Jesus is Lord" except by Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:3. So it is apparent that their hearts are susceptible to God's spirit.
"For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10.
How many will He seek? "And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to myself." John 12:32. The word 'men' is not in the Greek; this is universal.
If we read Phil. 3:21, we see the use of the Greek word "kata" ("in accord with/ according to"); see Matt. 9:29 for another example. We are told that the operation which enables Christ to subject all to Himself is in accord with the transfiguration of the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory. Nothing could be farther from forced subjugation than this!
Paul reveals a wondrous truth in Romans 5:19, and it relates to all mankind: "For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." Reconciliation is a willing and mutual agreement; one-sided conciliation or forced submission doesn't correspond with God's plan as described in Colossians 1:15-20.
"Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, for, moreover, all our doings You do contrive for us." Is. 26:12. See 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
:HeartThrob: AMEN!!! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
By the very gentleness of the Holy Spirit in tender love and caring being the only true and pure motive will by faith all them mountains be moved and
it is by faith that will please God .........
Gal 5 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
no law because there is no error /sin against this grace of God though His own Spirit &truth .
man/Adam will know and desire what is good and of God after he is changed to be just like Him ...
The earnest of the Spirit is God but the fullness that comes after the deposit is found in Jesus Christ KNOWING THE LOVE OF GOD , by Holy Spirit witness .
EVIL
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://www.savior-of-all.com/the%20purpose%20of%20evil.pdf
THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
"All men will be saved. But God isn't trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.
Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace. As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.
God not only 'allows' evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day."
THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
"The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free. Now this word 'destroy' does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect. When Christ took the keys from the prison keeper he, Satan, lost all power and authority. Christ made his office of no effect (Heb. 2:14&15).
While prophets of doom forecast calamity and destruction, the mind of Christ speaks and lights our world with the vision of universal restoration and reconciliation.
Paul told of a great victory where every knee would bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul did not say that only a small number will bow and confess, but he said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. And no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. What a glorious day that will be when every foot steps forth in the river of life up to the ankle, and from the ankle up to the knee. Every knee shall bow!
We are not an accident! We are not a mistake! No one has been overlooked by the Creator. All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.
When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river."
FUNDAMENTALS OR BASIS OF BELIEF – Thomas Griffith
"We will get good out of evil. Our gracious Educator does evolve for us out of corruption, temptation and sin, new purposes, new skill, new triumphs.
Beyond the overruling of intermediate evil into subserviency to a higher good, what has been superinduced as a transition state of things is therefore seen to be necessary only for a time. It will pass away with the functions which it is made to fulfill. It will at last be superseded by the highest good for everyone."
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
A SNIPPET FROM THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
"God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some, evil is never to cease. God is never able, as they see it, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent, whereas the only freedom of man which the scriptures affirm is the freedom of deliverance we find alone in Christ Jesus."
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."
THE STRANGER IN LOWELL – John Greenleaf Whittier
"Through discords of sin and sorrow, pain and wrong, truth rises, a deathless melody whose notes of wailing are hereafter to be changed to those of triumph as they blend with the great harmony of a reconciled universe."
THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
WOW!!
Just wonderful Rodger :HeartThrob: you made my day brother , some very profound truths ! :thumbsup:
I dont know if I agree that God ordains every evil thing.
Death camps. Serial muderers. Child killers.
Did God choose their acts?
Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah is speaking in the first person the words of YHWH Himself. Just a thought. The mystery of causality relating to evil is more complex, in my opinion, than that God ordains all evil- and I know we(humans) like things simple- but it aint :o)
I think God set up an environment where man can choose evil or good, and judges them for it, at least on some level.
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20He went on: "What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and defile a person." Mark 7
This is how I see it.
If we have choice, which I believe we do, then there will be the potential for evil.
Without choice, we cannot be God's children, but His slaves, only able to choose what He decides for us.
So, God allows evil, and in His infinite wisdom and power, can take that, which is evil, yet use it for good in our lives.
We are placed in a series of circumstances, where we are constantly given choices we can make. Only through God's Will, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and grace, can we choose those that are pleasing to God.
:2c:
I am not sure how to look at it John ,
It seems all things are made for His glory and all thingscame into being because of Him
I just know GOD IS SO WISE AND BEYOND comprehension ..
But have seen many evil things and heard and there has been good and bowing down for Gods help though the suffering of evil
Just one perspective ...
John 1 The Beginning
...2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men
Men do shine or fail to shine His Light
:dsunny: Dandelion :HeartThrob:
:
Quote from: rosered on July 04, 2015, 08:30:26 PM
:dsunny: Dandelion :HeartThrob:
Thank you, my friend, rosered!
:Hi5:
Indeed, when you consider the word evil as we have had it defined for us, it gets very complicated. For example, you mentioned, and rightfully so, that burning children in fire is something that had not ascended on his heart. Read a few verses later, and you see where he says 'I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters; and they shall eat everyone the flesh of his friend, in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies, and those who seek their life, shall distress them.' Jer 19:9. The Hebrew is emphatic here. He does not simply stand by and let this happen, he is the very cause of this happening.
The key to me in understanding this a little more clearly is, not the action itself, but His relationship to it. The burning of children is said to have not 'ascended on his heart'.
Compare this with what He inspired Jeremiah also to write in his lamentation:
For though He afflicted, Yet He shall show compassion According to the greatness of His kindnesses. For He has not afflicted from His heart, Nor does He grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:32,33
Notice that he indeed is the cause of the affliction, and such affliction is disjointed, (the concrete meaning of evil), yet this affliction was not from his heart. To have something done 'from the heart', is a Hebrew idiom, and, correct me if I am wrong, but I also think I remember it being an English idiom as well, having to do with doing something willingly, in agreement with, as being a part of you.
Maybe it is sort of like a parent who might use the rod lovingly on their wayward child for rebellion. They do not do so from the heart, not willingly, but nevertheless, they do it for the bringing about of the greater good.
I as a human have a very hard time wrapping my mind around trying to understand the most abhorrent evils as having anything ultimately to do with a greater good, but I must trust in the one who has it all under his control. That is how I currently understand it.
Ronen
Fear
by Walter Lanyon
Fear can manifest only because of a belief in separation. As long as you are something apart from God you will experience, in one form or another, fear. It is subtle and hidden like a poisonous serpent coiled in the grass, liable to strike at any time--at the most unguarded moment, when least expected.
Its only power is given to it by thought, and it can be swollen by thought from a serpent into a dragon. All thoughts of evil are like toy balloons in that they are enlarged until finally the capacity is overtaxed and they burst. Sooner or later a fear will explode itself, however much or little damage it has done.
The panacea for all fear is your union with God.
The moment you are separated from ME and wander into the thought world (the vacuum of separation), you are subject to the laws of fear. The one who is filled with fear sees the ''ten thousand fall at your right hand,'' and is so convinced of the reality and power of evil that he fails to notice the one who passes through unscathed.
''Stand and see the salvation of the Lord'' has a definite, positive value to you NOW. For you are beginning to sense-see the power of being one instead of two. You are beginning to appropriate the instantaneous relief felt from this ONENESS.
This sudden appropriation of ONENESS is accompanied by the consciousness of how to eliminate the object of, or the belief in, fear. There are different ''cities'' of refuge into which you may run for every differing degree of fear; yet all are the same God. This ''running'' into God is not as symbolical as it appears. It is an actual fusing of you with the Father within you, and from that moment you are a majority, and you will know the NOTHINGNESS of the fear belief.
We arrive finally at the point, which is so full of the acceptance of God that it can and does say, ''Even if You slay me, yet I will say You are God''---and the last stand is taken. Even if You slay me---yet will I acknowledge this One and Only Power.
http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/pages.asp?pageid=37154
Yes, I can relate to this.
The closer we get to God, the less fear in our lives.
Matthew 14:...28Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." 29And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!"...
We need to keep our eyes on Him, not on our storms.
I lived in fear, for so much of my life. The world and God look very different without those chains, now. I thank Him, everyday, for setting this captive, free.
Thank you for sharing this, rodgertutt.
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 05, 2015, 01:41:39 AM
Indeed, when you consider the word evil as we have had it defined for us, it gets very complicated. For example, you mentioned, and rightfully so, that burning children in fire is something that had not ascended on his heart. Read a few verses later, and you see where he says 'I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters; and they shall eat everyone the flesh of his friend, in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies, and those who seek their life, shall distress them.' Jer 19:9. The Hebrew is emphatic here. He does not simply stand by and let this happen, he is the very cause of this happening.
The key to me in understanding this a little more clearly is, not the action itself, but His relationship to it. The burning of children is said to have not 'ascended on his heart'.
Compare this with what He inspired Jeremiah also to write in his lamentation:
For though He afflicted, Yet He shall show compassion According to the greatness of His kindnesses. For He has not afflicted from His heart, Nor does He grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:32,33
Notice that he indeed is the cause of the affliction, and such affliction is disjointed, (the concrete meaning of evil), yet this affliction was not from his heart. To have something done 'from the heart', is a Hebrew idiom, and, correct me if I am wrong, but I also think I remember it being an English idiom as well, having to do with doing something willingly, in agreement with, as being a part of you.
Maybe it is sort of like a parent who might use the rod lovingly on their wayward child for rebellion. They do not do so from the heart, not willingly, but nevertheless, they do it for the bringing about of the greater good.
I as a human have a very hard time wrapping my mind around trying to understand the most abhorrent evils as having anything ultimately to do with a greater good, but I must trust in the one who has it all under his control. That is how I currently understand it.
Ronen
I am grateful, as are others I am certain, Ronen, for your input and efforts - clearly your researches and application provide for you a deep, meaningful and beneficial spiritual understanding (viewing Truth as the beginning, middle and end - the Whole - being particularly interesting).
I believe that, due to the sacred nature of the Scriptures and the rules which God has set into being towards its compilation, a spiritual meaning of varying expressions is contained in every word.
While I believe that the ancient people of the Old Testament as a whole were not of a similar state of spiritual understanding as those main placed characters who appear in the Sacred Record as guiding lights in the name of God, I do not want to cause any offence when I say that I do not hold a literal truth, except at the central core, to some of the stories passed down through generations, gathered together and recorded and re-recorded (in my opinion) at various times.
But nevertheless, I reiterate that I hold that the spiritual meaning of such passages is of everlasting moment in comparison to some embellished transient literal truth around which is built up that given by those who had the key to the hidden spiritual meaning. I say this because it is not my intention to upset people on their own spiritual path which they must rightly follow, and yet be able to express my own differing opinion.
I believe that the revelation of God to His people is according to their own capacity to assimilate it. Man cannot receive what he is not able to receive. I see the unfoldment of man's conception of God as generally progressive (although there is sometimes a back stepping).
I see, for instance, that a people who are capable of building high places and passing their children through a vile sacrifice - that such a people are not in any way fitted to a great understanding of a loving God. Hence, due to man's own consciousness, he received that aspect of God that could have a beneficial effect upon him - namely the Great Ruler, hence:
'I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters; and they shall eat everyone the flesh of his friend, in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies, and those who seek their life, shall distress them.' Jer 19:9
And so, to cut a long story short, then came the Loving Saviour, claiming Himself to represent the Father, if they had seen Him, they had seen the Father. Then, and now, man is given that aspect of God which he had become fitted to receive. So came the Holy Spirit, and so the Holy Spirit is still with us, working away on man.
So, in short, according to my understanding, when God is portrayed as saying that He will bring hideous evils upon man, this is but the form of Deity to which man would respond to halt his downward spiral into further and further evil.
I believe that while God is the Creator, He joys in the love that His children offer back to Him and also, as importantly, the love that they offer to His other children. Thus He gives certain choices and abilities to His children, and if those choices violate His laws - such as child sacrifice - then there is more evil created - it is man who has done such evil, hence:
'(They) have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart' Jer.19:5
So, on one level, God created everything and therefore one might declare that God created evil, but on another level, man is creating the evil against the Will of God.
Therefore, my own personal view is that God created life, and it is the life that creates the evil through that part of that life which makes it a child of God in contrast to God Himself - if only man would not oppose His kind commandments. It is, to put it another way, man separating himself from union with God that cause evil to arise.
I also believe that when man creates evil, he brings to himself the consequences of his evil creation, which is designed to bring him back to a restored, wholesome, healed spiritual state.
Hence, I believe that, as man's understanding and conception of his God increases, when one tells man that he has a glorious, wonderful future life in Eternity with an unthinkable loving God who has thought-out the most exquisite future spiritual marvels for His own children - then in saying such, it must always be accompanied with severe warnings, such as, I believe, a coming reckoning from which none shall escape, and which shall include remembrance of every tiniest detail and motive which violated the laws of God laid down so clearly by the Light of the World. Not to do so, in my opinion, is to be a false shepherd. And none can rightly say Christ's message was not available to them - again, my opinion.
This is simply a concise expression of how I see the issue in order to express my opinion, which really would take a whole lifetime to expand upon.
We are ultimately talking about the God who many profess to be Love, and it is just not possible to exaggerate the Love of God.
Peace.
Shalom Lastpost,
Thank you so much for sharing your understanding. You have clearly put much thought and meditation into it. I very much agree that, as you said, that when man separates himself from his source (God), that evil arises. Evil again, being the act of something disjointed, may be likened to a blade of grass disjointed from the rest of the grass blade. Being disconnected from its source, it can do nothing but wither. Thankfully, we serve a Father who is able to take that which is disjointed and to insert (the concrete meaning of טוב [good]) it back into its source, bringing about restoration and wholeness.
Any part we have have differences on in no way offends me, for whatever the truth of it is, he will reveal to us in his time, as it is written 'if any of you view it differently, Alaha will reveal that also to you.' In the meantime we are faithful to share what we understand, still sharing the oneness of the spirit. :friendstu:
Ronen
:HeartThrob: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
God bless you all my brothers & sisters with more of HIM !!!
You say what I know in my heart , but can never express it properly
Gods will DESIRES be done on earth as it is in heaven :cloud9:
THE FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke
"And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures. The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb."
Wikipedia says
"John Wesley was so fond of The Fool of Quality, in which Brooke declares his belief in universal salvation that he sought to have a copy of it given out to all new Methodist churches."
fools for Christ sake
1Cor 4
Do Not Be Proud , Ironically I believe pride causes many to close up their bowels of mercy ......... Paul spoke these words from the Spirit to let us know today , that bringing the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ to the world , would be a deadly task to them , but LIFE for others ,,,
to me this is laying down your life in Christ for others sakes , so they can begin a new life in Christ ....
...9For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death;
because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.
10We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor.
11To this present hour we are both hungry and thirsty, and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless;...
the saying Jesus spoke , the least you have done unto these you have done unto me ,,,,, when I was hungry you fed me , in prison you visited me etc ..
If they had known they would not have crucified the LORD OF GLORY 1 Cor 2 Wisdom from the Spirit of God!
...7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."...
THE LORD was speaking of the gathering into Christ , He who is not with me is against me , and He who does not gather with Me scatters abroad ,,,,
Blessed in He who is NOT OFFENDED because of Me !
The heart of the matter is Loving God first and than we love those whom GOD has called , blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord ...
The old saying practice makes perfect Matt 5 comes to mind ..
:HeartThrob:
Forever and ever
Isaiah 30:8&9
"Note it in a book that it may be for the time to come forever and ever that this is a rebellious people."
No book lasts forever. Neither does Israel's rebellion last forever. Jeremiah 24:7
Jeremiah 7:7 and 25:5
The promise was that the land was individually given to them until they died, and as a nation was given to them until the earth shall be burned up and God creates a new earth. 2Peter 3:10-13.
THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
"Words are inadequate to describe the harm which has resulted from confounding the ages with eternity.
The Greek and Hebrew terms rendered 'forever and ever,' 'eternal,' 'everlasting' never refer to endlessness; but to a series of terminable periods know as age-times. These ages are periods in which God carries on remedial work, but they have a conclusion and pass away when the purpose to be accomplished in them has been realized. The ages are never synonymous with endlessness but always distinct therefrom.
That the words translated 'forever and ever' are associated with the hereafter of both believer and unbeliever is true; but in the case of both it is limited to the span of the ages, and has not the remotest reference to the final state of either. Therefore the dogmas of endless agony and endless sin rest on purely imaginary premises and are without the slightest shred of biblical support."
EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for the eons of the eons."
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
forever FAQ
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
:dsunny: :thumbsup:
FOUR VIEWS OF GOD'S SALVATION
BIBLICAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION EXPOUNDED
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – by Charles Slagle
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
"FREE WILL"
A will in bondage to an enslaved mind is only "free" to choose what they prefer which is summed up in Romans 3:10-18. Until God intervenes and causes Jesus to be choice in their heart like He did for Saul of Tarsus, the sinner will always choose their own way rather than God's way unless they happen to coinside.
Gerry Beauchemin wrote
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
G. Campbell Morgan
CORRECTION: I have replaced snippet #72 with the following
#72 - A snippet from GOD'S METHODS WITH MAN – G. Campbell Morgan (pages 185-186)
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. Men have divided the church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a though conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible."
G. Campbell Morgan
In response to that statement, the SCRIPTURE STUDIES CONCERN editor (unnamed) wrote in 1956
"We cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One Who is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages. God's punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour."
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3213148682308877255#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ABOUT THE AUTHOR - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/AboutAuthor.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 29, 2015, 02:30:47 PM
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
I can not watch the youtube, but this book is very good.
Thanks for posting.
George Hawtin
the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets (Acts 3:21).
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto You: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21). Peter's statement speaks clearly of the times of the restitution of all things. Restitution, according to the best English usage, means the act of restoring something that has been taken away or lost; the act of making good or rendering an equivalent as for loss or injury. (Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary) This is in exact harmony with the Greek work temuriak which means restoration.
Some will no doubt reply to this by stating, as many do, that Peter was not promising that God would restore everything but only those things of which the prophets had spoken. I wish, however, to show as clearly as possible that the grammatical construction of this sentence declares the exact opposite to be the truth. I mean that Peter was actually saying that all the prophets from the beginning of the world had prophesied that there would be a restoration of all things and that the restoration would indeed be universal and would include all things. You will notice that in the scripture quoted (Acts 3:21, King James Version) there is a comma after the word things. This comma indicates that the clause following : "which God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began" – is what is known as a non-restrictive clause. A non-restrictive clause is one which can be omitted without changing or destroying the meaning of the principal clause or main statement. (See Mastering Effective English by Tressler-Lewis, Revised Edition, Pages 545-546.) It simply adds further information. Now read the scripture, omitting the clause in question, and you will find the meaning is clearly stated and nothing of the sense is destroyed. If this clause were modifying the word things, it would be restrictive and no comma would be used.
GOATS
This is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful. It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :-)
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid.
Thank you Roger,for that little gem! Indeed He cast lot's for the goat of the Lord's and Azazel's. One is offered on His altar....the
other in the wilderness bearing all the sin of the people..never to enter the Holy city.
The little goat shepherdess.......SOS 1 ...why should I be like a veiled woman....?If you do not know,most beautiful of women...
follow the tracks of the sheep...and graze your young goats by the tents of the shepherds......
GOD COUNTED THE COST: by Ray Prinzing
"For which of you , intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he that laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock Him, saying, This man began to build, and he was not able to finish. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements, and His ways past finding out! In all this Job did not sin, nor did he attribute folly to the way God was working. Luke 14:28-30; Roman 11:33 and Job 1.22.
No matter what the circumstances of life are, we should not charge God with folly. Natural reasoning cannot wrap around the negative happenings of this life, but we can relax in the knowledge that God is in complete control and He knows what he is doing.
Christendom's theology on the plan and purpose of God has become a gross perversion of the truth and most certainly attributes folly to God. They want us to believe that God started well but the devil upset His plans; so now He has substituted a salvage program to try and save a few scraps, even though His initial plans has ended in disaster. No wonder it reads in Matthew 15:9, "In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." They call Him "God" but they deny it by their teaching. They exalt the devil and attribute to his power that he doesn't even have. They teach a so-called "rapture" in which God somehow manages to snatch a few out of the hands of a semi-omnipotent devil, while the rest are destined to suffer in the fire of hell forever. This kind of teaching, my friends, is attributing folly to God. Such a god deserves to be mocked and ridiculed for such a performance. Such a god is not really God!
Jesus said that a man should count the cost before he enters into any Endeavour, otherwise his half-finished project will attest to his inability and lack of resourcefulness. And yet Christendom dares to attribute such folly to God Himself! When God laid out His plan and purpose for the ages, He guaranteed ahead of time a totally successful accomplishment of all His pleasure. Surely God in His all-knowing omnipotence should not be accused of operating by a principle that is inferior to how He has instructed weak and finite man to operate by!
Job38:7 tells us that the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy when God started His plan of the ages. They knew that God was going to do something beyond all expectation. Christendom comes along and tries to tell us that all of a sudden the bottom fell out, an enemy interfered, and now the best that God can do is a patch up job.
God is raising up a people who will preach the truth about His plan of the ages, and this preaching will produce the results that God is after instead of bondage to a Babylonian system of beliefs. Isaiah 40:12-14 says, "Who hath measure the waters in the hollow of God's hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales. and the hills in a balance? Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counselor hath taught Him? With whom took He counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge and showed to him the way of understanding?" God does not need any help from anybody to finish His job and accomplish all His pleasure. Neither can anybody hinder or delay His purposes. He is all-sufficient within Himself to get done what He wants done, and no created will can affect the working out of His plan. God has said to Himself, "I have counted the cost, and I know that I have enough resources to finish My plan for the ages and present it back to Myself a total triumphant victory. In Psalm 50:12 God says, "The world is Mine, and the fullness thereof." The entire world belongs to God. None of it belongs to Satan. Satan can only manifest temporary partial control so that God can work a greater purpose out of it. God knew that He could not lose, because He knew that he was willing to give enough of His resources to attain a total reconciliation.
The reason that man's love fails is because it doesn't deep loving long enough. But God's love NEVER fails, because He will keep loving, and keep loving until the desired loving response has been attained. God will not, indeed cannot fail to win the loving allegiance of every heart that He has created.
A man who loves a lady until she consents to marry him is like God. While courting her, the man brings her many gifts. But after she marries him he goes to her place, loads up all the gifts and takes them and her back to his place, and he hasn't lost a thing. If he only loved half-way he would lose his entire investment; but God loves all the way and He will not lose even one soul. It is true that the sinful soul will die, but it will be raised up again into newness of life in Christ Jesus. The destruction of the sinful soul is part of God's love-process. God's love never fails. God's love always wins. Contrary to what Christian Babylon teaches, God's love will not stop being effective when we die. Neither will it stop being effective at any point in time after the resurrection. Without any failures, God will accomplish His purpose for loving us. Not even our own will can separate us from the love of God; for He has not created us with a will so strong that he cannot influence it for our own good and for His glory. God counted the cost and he said to Himself, "I will spend everything necessary till I have gained everything for My glory." God so loved the world that He gave to receive it and, bless your heart, the world He will get! Nothing will be wasted. Nobody will be lost. But in God's year of jubilee the creation will be returned unto Himself in better shape than when He thrust it away from Himself. Acts 15:18 says, "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the ages." God knew every act and every sequence of events. He always knew what followed each development, for He Himself is the cause behind every development.
God knows us inside out. He knows why we feel the way we feel and why we do the things we do. He knows all of our motivations and desires, and He will control them all to work out His special plan for us. The Psalmist said, "O Lord, Thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and my uprising. Thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. Lo, O Lord, Thou knowest it altogether, Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit, or whether shall I flee from Thy presence? If I make my bed in hell, behold Thou are there. If I dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall Thy hand lead me, and Thy right hand shall hold me. How precious also are Thy thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them they are more in number than the sand, And when I awake, I am still with Thee. Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me, and know my thoughts, and see if there by any wicked way in me, and lead me in Thy way for the ages."
God is responsible for, and in perfect control of the interplay of good and evil in our life. He does not tempt us to sin, but He does allow us to be tempted in order to teach us lessons through it. God takes full responsibility for our temptation, for it is only because of His sustaining power that any tempter can tempt us. Man is accountable for yielding to temptation but God is responsible for it. And because God is responsible for it, He will see to it that man learns a positive lesson through the negative result of his accountability. God will not allow any sin to gain a permanent victory over anyone, but He will reverse its destructive power and turn it into good.
Rejected and scorned, ignored and trampled on and utterly despised - still God's love suffers it all till it has won over every heart. Isaiah 66:9 says, "Shall I bring to birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord. Shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith Thy God." God counted the cost and He knew that he would not lose out on any part of His plan of the ages, but would gain all back into Himself. All loss is temporary, for God sows the seeds of gain in every loss. "For from Him and for Him and to Him are all things." Romans 11:36. And Hebrews 2:15 says that Christ rendered of non-effect him that had the power of death, that is the devil, for the purpose of delivering them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
Let him that buildeth a tower be careful to count the cost,
Lest having the tower started, he finds that it cannot be finished.
And others beholding will mock him for all that he purposed and lost.
Our God has a plan for the ages - a purpose beyond all compare.
He carefully weighed out the balance and marked out the course for each man.
Then measure the good and the evil, creation in sorrow would share.
He willingly gave of His treasure - not even withholding His Son,
But followed His plan of redemption through Calvary, death and the tomb,
Secure in the knowledge that vict'ry would climax all He began.
He shall not be mocked by sinners; He shall not be found to fail.
The purpose which He determined, in mysteries yet to be known
Will find in Him its perfection - His love and His grace shall prevail.
He bringeth to birth and His power is strong to deliver His own.
The firstfruits of this generation, and all that the ages shall hold,
Till ALL THINGS in Him are united to worship the King on His throne.
God has not lost. God will not lose. He sat down, counted the cost and said, "I have enough grace and love to finish the job before the ages have been completed." ALL THINGS will be restored; nothing will be wasted, nothing will be lost. Everything will be returned to His glory and praise.
ESTABLISHED BY GRACE - Ray Prinzing
God's grace will successfully bring our salvation to completion. He gives us both the desire and ability to work out our salvation. It is God all the way. We are not saved because we believe. We believe because God has caused us to believe.
Grace is the spontaneous generosity of God's heart without any expectation of return and no strings attached. Grace causes us to choose righteousness. We are saved by grace, we walk by grace, and we are kept by grace. It is grace all the way.
Under the law God said, "you shall and I will." But under grace God says "I will and you shall because I will do the you shall through you.
God will arrange circumstances that will cause us to lose all confidence in the flesh. When grace comes into our life, He becomes a life style. Grace is our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Where true grace abounds, righteousness will be the result.
Grace is so expansive that it will cause everyone to be saved. It will result in the total restoration of every creature. Every preacher who fights the message of the salvation of all will also fight the message of grace and will try to shackle you with the law of only if you "do" will you be saved. But it's only because He has saved you that you will "do" what He wants you to do. God will cause grace to expand in our consciousness until we understand that it will include everyone.
Grace doesn't give anyone a second chance. Grace doesn't even give anyone a first chance. Grace effectively saves. It doesn't just give us a chance to be saved. If you can't believe in Jesus right now, just wait. A time is coming when God's grace will cause you to believe in Him. When God gives you faith to believe it will be impossible for you not to believe. Grace will effectively constrain us to be conformed to His image.
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
While believers are enjoying life eonian, unbelievers will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
SEE
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
THE EONS
http://martinzender.com/Zenderature/the_eons.htm
Good stuff, basic and very valuable for a sound understanding of scriptural truth of God's plan. thanks :banana:
GOD'S WRATH
God's wrath ends:
Micah 7:18 You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.
Isaiah 57:16 I will not accuse them forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then they would faint away because of me—
the very people I have created.
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
So God's wrath does not go on indefinitely; it is completed at some point.
All are to be reconciled:
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Eph 1:9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Ultimately God is all in all:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
GRACE, PLUS NOTHING – James Coram
This is not to say that our efforts are not essential or that there will be nothing for us to do since it is God Who saves us from our failings. To the contrary, God graciously saves us by causing us to work, "training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon" Titus 2:11,12. But our efforts are merely a product; they are the means through which God saves us. We contribute nothing.
It is not a question of our discipline and volition, but of pride and self-reliance concerning our discipline and volition, of boasting in the flesh instead of glorying in the transforming power of God. As long as we continue to see ourselves, in the final sense, as the key to anything, we will remain proud, antagonistic to "the grace of God in truth" Col. 1:6.
It is one thing to conceive of ourselves, in a dutiful sense and relatively speaking, as "cooperating" with the Lord Jesus, as He leads us into paths of better service. It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves to be so utterly independent of the Supreme Deity Himself, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that even He is at a loss to change our will or walk without our help.
Luke 6:32-35 shows us what God's grace (thanks) is; He is gracious to the wicked, which means sinners like we all were when He was gracious to us. It's not that we have to preach so they can be saved, otherwise we're responsible for their "eternal damnation", and they have to receive the message (if we happen to present it to them), or else they will be eternally damned. Salvation is not based on human actions, but on divine actions. He chooses who to save and when, and at that moment, that soul is saved. And He will save all, as He has clearly said He will do.
We believe the message we heard, and we preach because we are so commanded, but God doesn't depend upon us to save ourselves, nor does He depend upon our conveying the message, to save others. He is the only Sovereign, and He so arranges EVERYTHING that each will be saved. Free will and chance are myths which have completely twisted the mindset of many Christians.
Luke 6:32-35 is a wonderful example of char'is (thanks or grace) - grace is not given in response to human cooperation; grace brings about a response on the part of the recipient, but the grace saves, not the response. God saves us freely, for the gratuity in grace to all mankind superabounds! Romans 5:15.
Matthew 11:23 is an example that whether or not we repent depends on God.
Sodom would have repented had the mighty works that Jesus did in Capernaum been done in Sodom.
The question of course arises, why didn't God send someone into Sodom to do those mighty works that would have caused their repentance?
The answer is that God decides when He will grant repentance just like He did for Saul of Tarsus.
so timely......
MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
Author of the Christian classic best seller THE CHRISTIAN'S SECRET OF A HAPPY LIFE
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so. Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
__________________
ALL FOR JESUS
TY Rodger...a wonderful word. :HeartThrob:
Yes, very good!
THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
"We read in 1Tim. 1:11 that Paul was entrusted with the evangel of the glory of the happy God. We read in 1Tim. 2:4 that God wills that all mankind be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and that Christ Jesus gave Himself a correspondent ransom for all (2:6).
Our God is a happy God. In Ephesians 1:10,11 we learn of the secret of God's will, and this accords with His delight. It gives God joy and happiness and delight to purpose and bring about 'an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ.'
Such an evangel is certainly for the laud of His glory."
What Jesus really taught about "hell."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ever-been-to-hell-and-back.html
THE SHAKING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH – Charles Kingsley
"We do not deny that the wages of sin is death. We do not deny the necessity and certainty of punishment. Only tell us not that it must be endless, and thereby destroy its whole purpose. We too believe in an eternal fire, but we believe its existence to be not a curse but a blessing. That fire is God Himself Who taketh away the sins of the world, and of Whom it is therefore written, 'Our God is a consuming fire."
The article by Dawson is excellent!
HOW I RECOVERED
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH ---
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I'm 76 years old
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 76 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your browser address bar.
0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE - Thomas Kissinger
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
24. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
25. GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm - Adlai Loudy
26. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
27. THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm
"ALL THINGS" – Just a thought
All things work together for good "TO" those who love God.
Notice that it doesn't say all things work together for good "for" those who love God.
In other words it is those who love the real God (not a hideous caricature of God) who can see that all things eventually work together for good for everyone.
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 21, 2015, 03:29:12 PM
"ALL THINGS" – Just a thought
All things work together for good "TO" those who love God.
Notice that it doesn't say all things work together for good "for" those who love God.
In other words it is those who love the real God (not a hideous caricature of God) who can see that all things eventually work together for good for everyone.
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
ALL
A snippet from The Inescapable Love of God, Pages 59, 60, by Thomas Talbott:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32).
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15:22).
In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first "all" seems to determine the scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserts in Romans 5:18 that Christ's one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all, he evidently has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation; when he insists in Romans 11:32 that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in, disobedience; and finally, when he asserts in I Corinthians 15:22 that "all shall be made alive" in Christ, he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam. The grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it only if you are prepared to reject what is right before your eyes."
Does "All" mean "All"?
http://hopebeyondhell.org/
SOME PERSONAL THOUGHTS ON "I NEVER KNEW YOU"
"There is no better place than being in the hands of God."
For a UR that is definitely true!
But for an ETer, probably not, because they might turn out to be one of these guys.
"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils, and in Thy Name have done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them I never knew you. Depart from Me ye who work iniquity' (Matt. 7:22,23).
We could probably add to those declarations that many, in astonishment, will also say, -- "but my name should be right there in the book of life because I got myself saved in Your Name!"
They fully expect to go right into heaven based on what they had done in the Name of Jesus.
Instead, Jesus will cast them into the lake of fire which is the second death which will include kolasis aionion, which means age-during corrective chastisement.
It is God, not us, who decides who will or will not be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
Right on, thanks.
If you cannot love an endless hell god
QUESTION TO ME BY A POSTER
"In your own words, please explain why you find it so important to 'evangelize' so zealously.
Thank you."
Because many people are unable to love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into a state of inescapable everlasting suffering.
I'm 76 and the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior...circularity.htm
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior...world/index.htm
Infant Salvation
Believers in eternal torment are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few", also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin said, "There are babies a span long in hell".
Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if evangelicals are right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies' eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 103 year old Dad often says, "That's what makes Him God!"
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!
* Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!
QuoteThis of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
Great post, and this line is so profound- maybe the best, most concise and at the same time comprehensive statement regarding salvation I have ever read.
IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30. God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.
Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.
ITCHING EARS
Sometimes believers in eternal torment and annihilation like to say that 2Tim. 4:3&4 about a time coming when people will have "itching ears" and will turn to believing myths or fables, refers to believers in universal salvation.
But I think it refers to believers in eternal torment and annihilation instead because most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation.
ETers and ANers like to have their itching ears scratched by listening to sermons based on the myth or fable that only people who believe like they do before they die are going to avoid suffering forever in "hell" or be annihilated.
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
MYTHS
"...they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4
Scripture: "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
Myth: "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
Scripture: "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20, 21.
Myth: "Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest."
Scripture: "...Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him..." "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
Myth: "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
Scripture: "For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." Romans 11:32
Myth: "It was Lucifer's doing, and Adam's. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins."
Scripture: "and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.
Myth: "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Very good.. comparing God's word to men's (words and) myths!
THE NARROW DOOR
The language is entirely confined to the present.
"Lord, are there few that be 'saved'?" The literal rendering is: "Are those being saved few?" The question relates entirely to the number then, at that time that were entering the narrow door and accepting Christ.
But we know that sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
:goodpost: :goodpost:
NOT EVERYONE – Matt. 7:21
If these words were taken literally, then no one at all would enter the kingdom of Heaven because, at least for a period of time EVERYONE doesn't do the will of the Father.
According to Rom. 3:10-18 EVERYONE starts out in the condition described in those verses.
All that Jesus meant by that statement is that NO UNREPENTANT SINNER will ever enter the kingdom of Heaven.
But we know that a time is coming when there will be no unrepentant sinners left in existence.
We know this because God "will have all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I'm 77 years old now.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
And you do such a good job of it!
Amen, amen! :iagree: :iagree: :cloud9:
Amen :dsunny:
NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html
OPPOSERS REFUTED
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
If necessary, copy and paste the links into your browser.
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick:
SIX WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
:goodpost: :goodpost: :banana:
TED JONES - ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW
To my friends:
You all are welcome to share this with anyone.
As one of my friends, I encourage you to open my "snippets link" (below) and at least read a few of my 200+ snippets. It may be that God will grant you the pleasure of hoping that what all these writers are saying is actually true.
I deleted my first attempt at an introduction to this email.
It contained details of what was said, and how it was said to me when a few of my friends learned that I don't believe that a literally translated Bible teaches "eternal separation from God."
I got to thinking, what is the use of dredging all that back up when I now realize it was the only way they could have reacted based on what they had been taught. Consequently they had to insist that it was my fault that I was having a breakdown because, as they understood it, I was "refusing to believe the Word of God."
If it were up to me, I would make this email (especially the contents of my "snippets link") required reading for all Bible school students.
I was never able to believe what I was taught at Bible school.
Fortunately for me, my wife Helen couldn't believe it either.
I guess an appropriate question would be, "Why did I bother to go to Bible school"?
I would say that I went to learn how I best could influence people to get them to trust in Jesus for their salvation from everything from which they needed to be saved. I had been taught from childhood that we need to be saved from "eternal torment," but I was never able to really believe that. In fact just the thought that it might be true caused me continual intense emotional distress.
Since I was not much of a preacher, I concluded after graduating, that I would be most useful in Christian literature distribution which Helen and I did for forty years.
Everyone has an "opinion," including Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor).
I'm just so glad that I discovered his "opinion" that enabled me to recover from a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 77 now) caused by my inability to love or trust a god who would let anyone suffer forever or annihilate them. During that period of time I had continual panic attacks both night and day.
During my breakdown, every morning, as I washed my family's dishes and before I went to sleep at night, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing's many tapes.
I have listened to 178 of them twice, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH (because someone else had the copyright on GOSPEL ECHOES) and I gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.
Many people have an earthly hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that earthly hero to me.
For several years my 103 year old dad (who is still living) called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing's writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray's tapes.
As I listened to Ray's tapes I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.
Now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that the info I share is helping other people in the same way that it helped me.
All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several pages of Google links about him.
The theme of universal salvation is prominent in all of Ray's writings, but his book
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is especially good
Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but he will not likely be forgotten on this earth for many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
My friend Gary Amirault wrote
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."
This is part of Gary's introduction to his exposition called
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):
One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
On Audrey Drummond's INTERIOR COVERINGS MINISTRY website, I have posted snippets that I gleaned from more than 200 different writings in my hard copy library. Every one of them (plus many other writings that I read online and in UR magazines) made a contribution to my now believing that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible teaches the eventual salvation of everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
There are at least fifteen literal translations.
Here is the link to page one of my twenty-one pages of snippets.
The pages are in reverse numerical order.
The individual snippets are also in reverse numerical order from bottom to top on each page.
At the bottom of each page, just click on the next number to the left to read the next page from bottom to top.
SNIPPETS LINK
http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/apps/messageboard/default.asp?categoryid=1&replyid=137616&pageno=22
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I enjoyed this one.
Published in 1855, when the Worldwide Web was just starting!
If you haven't read it, here is an excerpt from Section 2, New Testament Doctrine on Hell, (example of Lazarus and the Rich Man):
"It must also be remembered that this is only a parable, and not a real history; for, as Dr. Whitby affirms, "we find this very parable in the Gemara Babylonicum." The story was not new, then, not original with Christ, but known among the Jews before He repeated it. He borrowed the parable from them, and employed it to show the judgment which awaited them." (which wasn't eternal torture in fire)
This may not be the best example, but lots of good stuff in this book.
:thumbsup: ' church 'father's' disposed to lie and deceive when the interest of religion inspires it.
3 unclean inspired expressions
......all that come before me were robbers and thieves.......there are already many anti-christ's...
the liar........
OUR HEAVENLY FATHER
According to Jesus, by nature, we are children of the devil (John 8:44).
But over and above that are the words that Jesus spoke to the multitude.
"For One is your Father, Who is in heaven." (Matt. 23:1&9).
As sinners, by attitude and actions we demonstrate that we are children of the devil.
But by right of creation, and by right of redemption through Jesus Christ, God is the Heavenly Father of everyone, even Satan (Col. 1:20).
For Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole kosmos (Greek). (1John 2:2)
Sooner or later, according to His perfect timing for each individual, God will effectively call everyone out of darkness into His marvelous light, first the chosen generation, then all the rest later. (1Peter 2:9; Col. 1:20)
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
PAUL
The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.
Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul's will "free."
But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that "the sin that dwelt within him" (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul's will in his war with his sinful nature.
PERISH
http://www.growthingod.org.uk/olethros.htm and http://www.growthingod.org.uk/aidios.htm
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
Kenneth Larsen and James Coram
"Everlasting destruction" would mean that they cease to exist. However, that terminology wasn't used by any of the prophets. I didn't make up universal reconciliation. It has strong Bible support.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20and many other texts that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire.
DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
3. Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan/Catholic-inherited ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
Oh my goodness righteous people perish!
Does that mean they go to be tormented forever?
Does that mean they don't get eternal life?
How are they spared from evil since they obviously perished?
Perish simply means to be destroyed, to die, to be lost. The actual Greek word is apollymi.
Guess what: Jesus came to save those who are apollymi.
Luke 19:10For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost (apollymi - same word).
So Jesus will save those who perish. How does He do this? By destroying death! When death is finally destroyed, all will be resurrected, and all will be alive! Jesus is life!
Excellent !
Questions
In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation. Unless these can be honestly answered, without rhetorical trickery, the Orthodox is just an unorthodox as Relics and paying for release of dead relatives from Purgatory was during the majority of Christian history.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?\
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and loving relationship to Christ?
These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility
RAY PRINZING TAPES
RAY PRINZING IS MY EARTHLY HERO AND MENTOR
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GOOD WRITINGS
During my twelve year nervous breakdown caused by my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to suffer forever, I would listen to a Ray Prinzing tape while I washed the dishes of my family every day and before going to sleep at night. Through the years that I repeatedly listened to these tapes I became more and more confident that that I was going to recover from my breakdown.
In the opinion of Rodger Tutt of Toronto, Canada, the following are the best of all of Ray Prinzing's taped sermons.
6 CHRIST OUR MERCY SEAT
8 NO SUBSTITUTE
9 TRUST
16 SEE NO EVIL
29 THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
32 SUFFICIENT THE EVIL
35 CHANGING THY STRENGTH
36 AS KINGS AND PRIESTS
38 REVELATION TO REVELATION
42 THE TREE OF LIFE
48 KEPT IN PEACE
51 GOD'S RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENTS
55 ALLEGORY OF RACHEL
56 NONE SHALL BE LOST
59 REPENTANCE TOWARDS GOD
61 AND GOD REPENTED
63 THE END OF THE LORD
71 URGED ON BY FAITH
76 MINISTRY OF SALT
89 BLESSINGS REWARDED OR INHERITED
90 NO CONDEMNATION
95 NOT SOMEHOW BUT TRIUMPHANTLY
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
105 THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
111 OF THE SAME LUMP
119 HELD TOGETHER BY LOVE
121 ESTABLISH THE SECOND
122 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART TWO
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
128 ADVANCE IN ADVERSITY
131 ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
133 AFTER THE PRESSURES
134 THE POLISHED SHAFT
135 INTERNAL TRIUMPH
136 RECONCILED INTO HIMSELF
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
142 THE HIDDEN ONES
143 GOD'S GENTLENESS TO MAN
147 BEYOND DISCIPLINE
148 BEHOLDING HIM
149 DELIVERANCE
150 ENTER THY CHAMBERS
151 GOD OF THE VALLEY
152 GOD OF THE MOUNTAINS
153 IN QUIETNESS
154 IN CONFIDENCE
158 RENEWED INTO HIS MIND
160 EAT THE BOOK
161 HOLD FAST TO THE HEAD
162 THE SEVENTH MAN
164 SORROW TURNED INTO JOY
165 MAKE READY A PEOPLE
166 DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS
167 THE BIRTHRIGHT CHALLENGE
168 MY FATHER IS GREATER
169 HIS PARTICIPATING PRESENCE
170 CHANGES, TYRANNY OR BLESSING
171 TILL HE PLEASE
172 IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
173 KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
174 THE SWORD GUARDED WAY
175 THE HEAVENLY VISION
176 DEFEATING THE ACCUSERS
177 NEITHER TOIL NOR SPIN
178 THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
180 HE THAT SHALL ENDURE
181 LIFT UP A STANDARD
183 MUCH MORE
186 WHEN GOD HIDES HIS FACE
187 FAITH VICTORIOUS
188 DIVINE CONFIRMATION
189 WAIT FOR WISDOM'S CHILDREN
190 GOD CHOSE OUR FATHERS
192 LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER
194 EARTHEN VESSEL SINKS
196 A VERY PRESENT HELP
197 A NEW COAT, YEAR BY YEAR
198 COME UP HITHER
199 UNDER HIS SHADOW
200 A HUSHED SECRET
201 EXPECTATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
202 RETURNING INTO GOD
203 PUT A DIFFERENCE
204 FROM EAST TO WEST
206 TIME OF YOUR SOJOURNING
207 HIS HAND IS STRETCHED OUT
208 WHAT SHALL I DO?
209 TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS
210 GIVE DILIGENCE
211 LIVING EPISTLES
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
218 HOLD FAST TILL I COME
219 ACTIVELY RESTING
221 AN INNER REJOICING
222 BLESS ME INDEED
224 NO MORE ECCENTRIC
225 NOT A SPIRIT OF FEAR
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
227 AND SUDDENLY
228 THE HEAVENLY HOST ATTENDS
229 FIT FOR THE KINGDOM
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
231 GOD IS IN CONTROL
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
233 OUR THREEFOLD JUDGEMENT
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
238 FROM POVERTY TO RICHES
239 ABIDING IN GOD
240 PARTS OF HIS WAYS
241 CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST
242 MASTER OF MYSELF
243 ANOINTED EYE SIGHT
244 FAITH THAT OBTAINS
246 THE FURNACE FOR GOLD
247 RAISE UP THE FOUNDATION
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
250 INWARD REVELATION OF THE SON
251 KINGDOM LIFE TRANSFORMING
252 SO GROWS THE KINGDOM
253 AFTER YE HAVE SUFFERED
254 CHOSEN TO KNOW HIS WILL
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
256 OUR THREEFOLD RESURRECTION
257 A THORN FOR THE FLESH
258 THE MINISTRY OF WAITING
259 THERE IS A RIVER
267 HEARING, LEARNING, COMING
268 THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE ME
269 HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
270 GOLD IN THE MAKING
271 MAKE TO LACK, READY TO FILL
273 ACQUAINTED WITH THE ALMIGHTY
274 EACH IN HIS OWN RANK
278 GOD'S UNFINISHED WORK
280 FULLY PERSUADED
285 CONTINUALLY WITH HIM
286 SURRENDERED TO HIS LORDSHIP
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
296 INIQUITY SHALL HAVE AN END
297 OVERFLOW WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS
298 THINGS BELONGING TO PEACE
301 HIS DESIRE IS TOWARD ME
302 REFINED AS SILVER
303 AND GOD REMEMBERED
304 LOOSE THE PRISONER
305 ASPECTS OF SPIRITUAL LIFE
306 GOD'S INDWELLING CONTROL
307 OUT OF HIM WE CAME
308 GRACE UPON GRACE
309 JUDGEMENT RESTS FOR A LIGHT
310 HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER
312 THE SURE MERCIES OF DAVID
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
316 TOTAL AVAILABILITY
317 VIEWING THE THIRD DAY
326 KINGDOM AUTHORITY
THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE RAY PRINZING TAPES
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GREAT WRITINGS
Ray Prinzing's very best, and his two extra good tapes.
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST (extra good)
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
339 GOD SO LOVED HE GAVE
352 BUT GOD MUCH MORE
385 FREEDOM OF THE GLORY
387 ESTABLISHED BY GRACE (extra good)
Those sound like some awesome titles!
I also like this! :thumbsup:
Quote
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?\
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and loving relationship to Christ?
These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility.
:gthumbsup: :gthumbsup:
I like that too.
Happy to say I have most of those wonderful tapes! :dsunny:
I have not looked too much at RAY PRINZING stuff, but after those comments, I sure will. :friendstu:
I was never able to believe what I was taught at Bible school.
Fortunately for me, my wife Helen couldn't believe it either.
I guess an appropriate question would be, "Why did I bother to go to Bible school"?
I would say that I went to learn how I best could influence people to get them to trust in Jesus for their salvation from everything from which they needed to be saved. I had been taught from childhood that we need to be saved from "eternal torment," but I was never able to really believe that. In fact just the thought that it might be true caused me continual intense emotional distress.
Since I was not much of a preacher, I concluded after graduating, that I would be most useful in Christian literature distribution which Helen and I did for forty years.
Everyone has an "opinion," including Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor).
I'm just so glad that I discovered his "opinion" that enabled me to recover from a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 77 now) caused by my inability to love or trust a god who would let anyone suffer forever or annihilate them. During that period of time I had continual panic attacks both night and day.
During my breakdown, every morning, as I washed my family's dishes and before I went to sleep at night, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing's many tapes.
I have listened to 178 of them twice, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH (because someone else had the copyright on GOSPEL ECHOES) and I gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.
Many people have an earthly hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that earthly hero to me.
For several years my 103 year old dad (who is still living) called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing's writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray's tapes.
As I listened to Ray's tapes I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.
Now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that the info I share is helping other people in the same way that it helped me.
All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several pages of Google links about him.
The theme of universal salvation is prominent in all of Ray's writings, but his book
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is especially good
Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but he will not likely be forgotten on this earth for many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
RAYMOND VAN DYKE
Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20:21-22:
In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
• No more rule
• No more authority
• No more power
• No more enemies
• No more reigning
• All subjected
• No more death, death destroyed.
• All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:
• Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
• Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
• Authority (21:24,25)
• Power (21:24,25; 22:2
• Kings (21:24-26)
• Saints reign (22:5)
• Second death still exists (21:5)
• The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote
Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20:21, 22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
THE GOSPEL FOR TODAY
RECONCILED
That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (2Cor. 5:19).
RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
And without a parable spake not Jesus unto the multitude Matt 13:34
https://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html
RICHARD CONDON
QUESTIONS WITHOUT ANSWERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
From the introduction
"To those holding a limited view of God's plan of salvation, they are truly Questions Without Answers, but, to those who rely on God's Word, the answers become apparent as His truth is revealed to them."
An important follow-up! - by Richard Condon
A REFUTATION AND A RESPONSE
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
The book is A.E. Knoch's ALL IN ALL. In spite of the claim that there are contradictions in it, and in spite of "cult-buster" Don Hewey's other attempts to discredit it, (arguments to which Richard Condon has responded), ALL IN ALL remains, in my opinion, one of the best of all the many books that I have read in support of the Bible teaching universal transformation.
Don Hewey is a believer in the inspiration of the King James Version. When he accuses A.E. Knoch of "contradicting the Bible," in many cases what he really means is that A.E. Knoch contradicts the KJV, because the Concordant Translation does not rely on the Received Text from which the KJV was translated. Don Hewey therefore also attacks the RSV, the NIV, and other modern translations. For this reason much of what Don writes just doesn't make any sense.
As far as Knoch calling the life that Lazarus will be raised to as it being eonian and unending, it is both. Lazarus will have unending life and that life will allow him to live through the oncoming eons which is called '"eonian life."
But even if Don Hewey's criticisms had any merit, they would still not detract from the fact that this book IRREFUTABLY proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
The arguments answered in this debate are the same arguments that Don Hewey uses to criticize A.E. Knoch's book ALL IN ALL
RICHARD CONDON'S UNIVERSAL SALVATION LIBRARY
THE MAIN LIBRARY AND IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http:/gtft.org/
IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/web/20110705095340/http://gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
VALUABLE LINKS!
Richard Condon's library of writings by dozens of universal reconciliation writers.
The section called IN THE GARDEN is especially inspirational.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http:/gtft.org/
http://web.archive.org/web/20110705095340/http://gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
And THE MAIN LIBRARY is huge!
ENJOY!
BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
MARTIN ZENDER
"The world hates God because of the picture Christianity has painted of Him. The doctrine of eternal torment is a teaching of demons; a myth. It infects the world via a series of false expressions, printed onto tracts and forced into sermons. Those who espouse and teach it are in full heed of deceiving spirits, though they know it not.
There must be a remedy, and there is. 2Timothy 2:15, 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.'
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying."
Origin of Endless Punishment
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
QuoteI believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials
Amen!
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16). (end quote).
Quote from: eaglesway on December 19, 2015, 01:22:15 AM
QuoteI believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials
Amen!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 20, 2015, 02:23:50 PM
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16). (end quote).
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Luke 4 ...7"Therefore if You worship before me, it shall all be Yours."
8Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote)
Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
From RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
..amen!! We can barely glimpse the greatness and wonder of how awesome our Father God really is! What a day of praise ..silence ..joy, the Day of Consummation will be..! :clapping: :cheerleader: :hithere: when He fully becomes "all in all" and the last (biggest) enemy death will be no more..
THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." (end quote)
ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all." (end quote)
:thumbsup:
CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the lustre of the universe." (end quote)
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself." (end quote)
COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 27, 2015, 09:08:50 AM
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:
THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.
TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
"Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God's affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God's love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God's limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.
Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!"
Yes, indeed, God's great love for us......it is really always about that, because it is always about the Cross, and the Cross was the greatest testimony to Love that this fallen world has ever known.
...7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.... Romans 5: 7-9
And, yes, to share God's Love, is the greatest height to be known on this earth. In all of its forms, in the infinite number of ways we can share that Love with each other.
Psalm 13:5
But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.
Happy New Year!
D. :dsunny:
– A POEM BY A.G. CAMPBELL
I deem they greatly err, who hold
That He Who made the human soul,
Will not its destinies control
For final good – but, wrathful, fold
It in the shrouds of hopeless woe,
Of deathless gloom, of quenchless fire,
The creatures of His vengeful ire,
Whence it can never ransom know.
So, in the world to come, His love
Shall freely unto all abound;
Even prisoners in the depths profound
Shall see His kind face beam above
Their dreary cells, and hear His voice,
Unheeded once, in mercy call, --
"Turn, turn to Me and live!" and all
Shall hear the summons and rejoice.
Lost men, lost angels, shall return, --
Satan himself be purified;
Death shall be conquered in his pride,
And hell's fierce fires shall cease to burn.
Then shall our God be All in all –
His love bear universal sway;
His love preserves all souls for aye,
Nor shall the weakest fear a fall.
REVELATION 20:10
A frequently asked question regarding Revelation 20:10
How can there only be one age after the millennium when the devil, at the end of the thousand years, is to be tormented unto ages of ages?
Response by James Coram.
"The problem here is a loose usage of terms. The thousand years of the saint's reign does not constitute the entirety of the coming epochal eon or duration. The two do not end at the same time.
The period of time covered by the word eon depends upon the context. The expression "for the eon" does not necessarily include the entirety of the eon intended. While some seem to think that it must include the whole of a given eon, on the contrary, when an action occurs in an eon, it usually refers only to the rest of it. Our Lord spoke to the barren fig tree, "No longer, by any means, may fruit be coming from you for the eon." Did He forbid fruit from the deluge to His coming? The tree was not even planted until a thousand years after the flood, and it did produce fruit in this eon, but was to do so no longer (Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14; John 13:8; 1Cor. 8:13).
So also in the plural. "For the eons" does not denote the whole of them. Christ shall reign over the house of Jacob "for the eons," yet only two of them will be left when the kingdom commences (Luke 1:33).
The same is true of the phrase "for the eons of the eons." We read that the saints will be reigning for the eons of the eons (Rev. 22:5). But some of these saints will not be alive at the commencement of the millennial eon. We cannot delay this eon after the advent of the Messiah. Yet Daniel and the dead circumcision saints are not raised until seventy-five days later. Part of the eon will be past when they commence to reign with Him the thousand years (Rev. 20:6). The same usage is found with reference to the torment of the Adversary. Although the wild beast and the false prophet have been in the lake of fire a thousand years before him (Rev. 19:20), only one phrase is used for both: "the eons of the eons (Rev. 20:10). At that juncture, how much of that eon still remains, we do not know. But no matter how little, so it was that our Lord and His apostles spoke, and we should follow His example. This usage in Rev. 20:10 of the word eon does not affect its meaning. The limitations are in the context, not in the word."
If you look in the Concordant Version of Rev 20:7 please look at the vertical line in front of "finished." "And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail." You could say: whenever the thousand years should be finishing . . . ." So Satan is cast into the lake of fire when the thousand years is finishing and through the new earth eon thus comprising the eons of the eons.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10. Those who hold to the theory of "annihilation" contend that Satan is consumed in the lake of fire, ceasing to exist before the new earth begins. Yet the text is plain: he will be tormented during TWO eons; what remains of the "millennial" eon (which lasts a little over 1,000 years), and the final eon on the new earth. Likewise, we are told of those who "shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." Rev. 22:5. That they shall be reigning on the new earth is apparent- Rev. 21:24. Likewise, Satan will be alive (and in torment) during the final eon.
Mistranslating "eons of the eons" as "forever and ever" solves nothing; it only feeds the vile theory of eternal torment, while generating considerable confusion. As for those vessels of indignation who are cast into the lake of fire near the end of the millennial eon, for them that lake is the second death. Yet they are not annihilated; their part is in that lake during the final eon- Rev. 21:8. They are not described as "nonexistent", rather, they are described as being outside the holy city- Rev. 22:15. They will be dead until death is abolished at the consummation of the eons."
SAUL OF TARSUS – ACTS 9:1-9
"Free willers" argue that Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus because He knew that Saul would accept Him.
Fact is, ANYONE would accept him under Saul's predicament.
A light from heaven blinds him and he falls to the earth and hears a voice saying, "I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting."
It is absurd to think that anyone would reply to Jesus, "Screw you Jesus Christ. I'm going to keep slaughtering your followers just like I did before."
Few of us have a conversion experience as dramatic as Saul's but it was just as surely a product of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and CAUSING Jesus to be choice in our heart. It is impossible to give ALL the glory to God and avoid self-righteousness when we claim that it was not God Who CAUSED our new mental preference.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
Quote from: Dandelion on January 01, 2016, 05:32:17 PM
Yes, indeed, God's great love for us......it is really always about that, because it is always about the Cross, and the Cross was the greatest testimony to Love that this fallen world has ever known.
…7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.… Romans 5: 7-9
And, yes, to share God's Love, is the greatest height to be known on this earth. In all of its forms, in the infinite number of ways we can share that Love with each other.
Psalm 13:5
But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.
Happy New Year!
D. :dsunny:
:cloud9: :cloud9: :thumbsup:
..and a great year to you too, Dandelion! :gsmile:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 05, 2016, 10:47:43 AM
SAUL OF TARSUS – ACTS 9:1-9
"Free willers" argue that Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus because He knew that Saul would accept Him.
Fact is, ANYONE would accept him under Saul's predicament.
A light from heaven blinds him and he falls to the earth and hears a voice saying, "I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting."
It is absurd to think that anyone would reply to Jesus, "Screw you Jesus Christ. I'm going to keep slaughtering your followers just like I did before."
Few of us have a conversion experience as dramatic as Saul's but it was just as surely a product of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and CAUSING Jesus to be choice in our heart. It is impossible to give ALL the glory to God and avoid self-righteousness when we claim that it was not God Who CAUSED our new mental preference.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
Another great point and post!! And surely very very true!! :smile: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
It is true that there are things that God cannot do.
For example, God cannot lie. But He doesn't want to lie.
But He DOES want to save ALL mankind.
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does,
In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6.
See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and
since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just
that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
should and may – James Coram
As to the word "should" in Phil 2:10,11 and the "may" of 1Cor. 15:28, it is not the should or may of doubt but is a dependent clause based upon the grammar of the subjunctive.
For instance, a clear example of the subjunctive of "may" and "should" is when I state, "I have a pen in my hand. I will loosen my grip on the pen so that it may or should be falling." The falling of the pen is dependent on my loosing it. It definitely will fall should I loosen my grip on it. There is no doubt in the "may" or "should."
Now, looking at the passage; "Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with a Name that is above every name, that in the Name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father." Phil. 2:9-11.
Every knee bowing and every tongue acclaiming is dependent upon
1. Christ going to the cross (verse 8), and
2. God gracing Him with a Name above every name.
Since these have taken place, all WILL bow the knee, and their tongue WILL acclaim Jesus as their Lord.
SIN
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
The introduction reads "Mistranslation of the Greek word 'aion' is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. Because the understanding of the eons and God's purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on important issues like judgment, and man's destiny. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after spiritual truth will be aided in their quest."
Here is a snippet from the writing itself. "During this present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), sin reigns, Satan who is said to be 'the god of this eon' (2Cor. 4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1Cor. 15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
In due time, He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom. 8:18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
SNIPPETS
In case you might be interested, my snippets from the more than 200 different writings in my hard copy universal reconciliation library can also be read on the Evangelical Universalist website.
Page one starts at this link.
http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1940&sid=8239becde461c2fe90528cf9e0b44468
I hope you are enjoying them.
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
I'm 77 years old in case you are wondering :-)
Thank you for every snippet you have posted. My favorite was from How To Go On Living by Dusean Burkish (spelling??).
Your snippets are MUCH appreciated!
:cloud9: yes, they are, thank you :HeartThrob: Blessings...
SOONER OR LATER
WORDS TO INSPIRE THE SOUL
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A will in bondage to an enslaved mind is only "free" to choose what they prefer which is summed up in Romans 3:10-18. Until God intervenes and causes Jesus to be choice in their heart like He did for Saul of Tarsus, the sinner will always choose their own way rather than God's way unless they happen to coincide.
Gerry Beauchemin wrote
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
In the conclusion of THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL, Martin Luther wrote
"There can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!"
http://www.truecovenanter.com/trueluthe ... .html#conc
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
Martin Zender
Man's [Free] Will vs. God's Will
Stuart Pouliot
"Man is helpless in his sin, so why do we make man a hero in his own salvation, as if he can save himself by exercising his so-called free will ? God the Creator alone is responsible for His creation, and He has taken on the full responsibility to save all mankind through His Son. We need to be continually reminded that it is God's will that is being worked out in the ages, not man's will, and that God will accomplish all that He wills through His Son. In Christ all will be made alive! All things come forth through God.
There is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6 NASB)
We need to stop holding to a small, impotent god created in our own image and embrace the God of All who will be All in all new. Further, we need to stop boasting in ourselves or encouraging others to boast in themselves when it comes to our so-called salvation. Perhaps, just perhaps, if we moved off of this ground, we would begin to praise God for His glorious plan to save all mankind, eventually . Just imagine the power of the gospel that would go forth based on the pure love of God and not on some fear of a fictitious pagan place called hell."
http://kingdomandglory.com/art/art56.html
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
THE BLACKEST OF ALL BACKGROUNDS
As some of you know, I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 77 now) over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever.
By listening to many audio tapes by Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor) over that period of time, I was able to gradually recover. All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several Google pages of links about him.
Millions of Muslims believe that non Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell.
Quote from
Islamic Beliefs about the Afterlife
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm
And, as most people already know, millions of Christians believe that non-Christians are going to suffer forever in hell.
The way that I emotionally cope with (i.e. stop myself from going crazy again) because of the existence of ETers (i.e. believers in eternal torment), is to perceive ETers as God's vessels of grossest dishonour -- a necessary foil of contrast in the guise of truth – a part of the blackest of backgrounds, upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His undefeatable grace and His love that never fails.
The marred vessels (i.e. ETers), never leave the Potter's hands, (they are marred in the Potter's hands), and neither will anyone leave the Potters hands. After our resurrection from the dead, all ETers will be refashioned, and transformed into vessels of honour, and it will be plain for all to see that it was better that ETers were vessels of dishonour for a long as they were (Jeremiah chapter 18).
One of the dishonourable characteristics of ETers is that they have no desire whatsoever to check out the reasons why URs (i.e. universal reconciliationists) believe that a literally translated, (not interpretively) translated Bible, actually teaches universal salvation.
But it may be that a silent member, or surfer, or lurker on this forum might be motivated enough to check us out and decide if the conclusions of URs have any merit.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
No doubt, many ETers will say that they have examined the evidence of the URs and have rejected it as being false. That, of course is to be expected of those for whom God has chosen to temporarily be a marred vessel. At least, that is the way I see it.
Isaaih 52;11 depart..depart...go ye out of the midst of her..be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord[as all men have bore the image
of the corrupt/so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt[vessels]
His visage was so marred..more than any man..and His form more than the sons of man. When you see the son/you see the Father...
God's visage has been marred more than any man's.......hows that? sin has made him out to be a monster...a torturer/tormenter,an
evil doer...
More and more I believe it is hard for those of et persuasion to be able to trust God.. I for one am happy to not be under that yoke. Besides it's so totally illogical.. :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on January 19, 2016, 03:47:14 AM
More and more I believe it is hard for those of et persuasion to be able to trust God.. I for one am happy to not be under that yoke. Besides it's so totally illogical.. :dsunny:
I agree pretty much they can't trust enough to rest but sometimes if they tithe and keep attending church every time the doors open they can have periods of feeling righteous and trust to some degree. But any tiny slip up and they have to believe ducking. :punish: :punish: Been there-done that and there is no rest in that circle. It reminds me of Keith Greens song with the line in it about the children in the desert with Moses "Hard to keep your feet from moving because the sand is so hot."
When you think about it that system is a Wilderness System. :flamebreath: :flamebreath: :flamebreath::eek:
Quote from: He1MyHeart on January 19, 2016, 04:56:45 AM
Quote from: marie glen on January 19, 2016, 03:47:14 AM
More and more I believe it is hard for those of et persuasion to be able to trust God.. I for one am happy to not be under that yoke. Besides it's so totally illogical.. :dsunny:
I agree pretty much they can't trust enough to rest but sometimes if they tithe and keep attending church every time the doors open they can have periods of feeling righteous and trust to some degree. But any tiny slip up and they have to believe ducking. :punish: :punish: Been there-done that and there is no rest in that circle. It reminds me of Keith Greens song with the line in it about the children in the desert with Moses "Hard to keep your feet from moving because the sand is so hot."
When you think about it that system is a Wilderness System. :flamebreath: :flamebreath: :flamebreath::eek:
Sometimes we forget that Jesus and His Father love all their children. I agree that the ET view distorts the image of God, but His love still comes through to everyone who calls upon His name out of a pure heart.
He is the One who touches and heals and delivers, as He has done for so many- whether through vessels in come confusion or whether directly by His Spirit. I am glad I am free from that confusion, but He was so good to me and faithful, before I knew of UR. Called me, healed me, comforted me and also used me to bring His love to many souls, before they knew anything but "Wow, Jesus loves me!"
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2016, 12:53:18 PM
Quote from: He1MyHeart on January 19, 2016, 04:56:45 AM
Quote from: marie glen on January 19, 2016, 03:47:14 AM
More and more I believe it is hard for those of et persuasion to be able to trust God.. I for one am happy to not be under that yoke. Besides it's so totally illogical.. :dsunny:
I agree pretty much they can't trust enough to rest but sometimes if they tithe and keep attending church every time the doors open they can have periods of feeling righteous and trust to some degree. But any tiny slip up and they have to believe ducking. :punish: :punish: Been there-done that and there is no rest in that circle. It reminds me of Keith Greens song with the line in it about the children in the desert with Moses "Hard to keep your feet from moving because the sand is so hot."
When you think about it that system is a Wilderness System. :flamebreath: :flamebreath: :flamebreath::eek:
Sometimes we forget that Jesus and His Father love all their children. I agree that the ET view distorts the image of God, but His love still comes through to everyone who calls upon His name out of a pure heart.
He is the One who touches and heals and delivers, as He has done for so many- whether through vessels in come confusion or whether directly by His Spirit. I am glad I am free from that confusion, but He was so good to me and faithful, before I knew of UR. Called me, healed me, comforted me and also used me to bring His love to many souls, before they knew anything but "Wow, Jesus loves me!"
Amen !! To know God loves all and all are safe in His loving plan , it is not Gods desire that any should perish 2 Peter 3
...8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish
but for all to come to repentance.
When we know every knee will bow and surrender to Gods love and Wisdom it is so much easier to rest in Hope , Our Hope is in the LORD JESUS CHRIST and the work that has been done by HIS SPIRIT OF TRUTH ... in LOVE ... by Him for Him and though Him do all things exist 1 Col
The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together :HeartThrob: It is so much more than a little human mind could imagine !
THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL
In the conclusion of his book THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL Martin Luther wrote
there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html
"FREE WILL"
A will in bondage to an enslaved mind is only "free" to choose what they prefer which is summed up in Romans 3:10-18. Until God intervenes and causes Jesus to be choice in their heart like He did for Saul of Tarsus, the sinner will always choose their own way rather than God's way unless they happen to coinside.
Gerry Beauchemin wrote
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely
As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.
As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based. But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.
When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.
When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.
THE GRAND ASSERTION – Don Hicks
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing". I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios". "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type. The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power". Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".
The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever. The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe." The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista". Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever". Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever? What's more than forever? That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.
An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing. Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID,
ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.
NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to
belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we
have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will
only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might
think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned
spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional
stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and
Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be
disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.
Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's. God
grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical
death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something
man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his
traditions, but God's word does not speak of it.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day."
Phi 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you
should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,"
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.
"ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him
be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will
also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that
God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE
OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD
DAVID was inspired to write:
Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the
LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For
the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations
ISAIAH was inspired to write:
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in
righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and
strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against
him.
PAUL was inspired to write:
Phi 2:10-11 "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will
bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."
JOHN was inspired to record:
Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on
the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
for the ages of the ages!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and
confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment.
Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the
Father". It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without
meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus
is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
(1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 28, 2016, 11:28:44 AM
THE GRAND ASSERTION – Don Hicks
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing". I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios". "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type. The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power". Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".
The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever. The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe." The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista". Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever". Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever? What's more than forever? That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.
An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing. Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID,
ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.
NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to
belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we
have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will
only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might
think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned
spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional
stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and
Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be
disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.
Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's. God
grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical
death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something
man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his
traditions, but God's word does not speak of it.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day."
Phi 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you
should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,"
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.
"ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him
be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will
also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that
God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE
OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD
DAVID was inspired to write:
Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the
LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For
the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations
ISAIAH was inspired to write:
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in
righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and
strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against
him.
PAUL was inspired to write:
Phi 2:10-11 "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will
bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."
JOHN was inspired to record:
Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on
the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
for the ages of the ages!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and
confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment.
Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the
Father". It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without
meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus
is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
(1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD
Amen..God never made anybody in the first place whom He could not ultimately redeem !
The reason some translations use for ever and ever is that aion, which they translated as forever, was sometimes written as aionas tou aionon "ages of ages" or "age of ages". Which they translate forever and ever- which is really contrived and clearly inaccurate.
It is like the word "wrath" ..... the majority of the time it is the word that its original meaning means "desire", for example Romans 5:8-10
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Most people think (by men) that we are being saved from God's wrath, His anger, but taken as its original meaning "desire" .... we shall be saved from desire through Him ..... and what desire are we being saved from? Is it not the desire of the flesh? for is it not by the life of Christ in us that we desire the things of the Father (of the Spirit) rather than things of the world (of the flesh) because as the desires of the Spirit increase the desire of the flesh decreases.
Which I also see as "to die daily"
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Quote from: jugghead on January 29, 2016, 03:14:33 PM
It is like the word "wrath" ..... the majority of the time it is the word that its original meaning means "desire", for example Romans 5:8-10
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Most people think (by men) that we are being saved from God's wrath, His anger, but taken as its original meaning "desire" .... we shall be saved from desire through Him ..... and what desire are we being saved from? Is it not the desire of the flesh? for is it not by the life of Christ in us that we desire the things of the Father (of the Spirit) rather than things of the world (of the flesh) because as the desires of the Spirit increase the desire of the flesh decreases.
Which I also see as "to die daily"
Amen !!! Great thoughts Jugg !,
As the old man decreases in weakness against the Spirit[consumed ] that warring , the new man in Christ is strengthened daily , give us this day our daily bread , food for thought and dwelling on them heavenly things of Gods Word and Spirit of Truth .
we worship Him in Spirit and truth nothing else can enter into His glorious kingdom that defiles
:HeartThrob: God bless you and yours brother .
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 30, 2016, 12:33:07 PM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Thank God for you Rodger and all the work you do faithfully brother , God bless your heart with more and more of Him :HeartThrob:
My pleasure rosered :HeartThrob:
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL BE IN HEAVEN
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
THE MANY
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! Love that! Makes (the) perfect sense! :smile:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 30, 2016, 03:05:05 PM
My pleasure rosered :HeartThrob:
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL BE IN HEAVEN
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
And they were reading the Bible in its original language! Yes !..they were ...and reading it in the original language changes everything !.
Love the Abott quote.
reason is not automatic, those who deny it cannot be conquered by it
The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez. 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
THE MILLENNIAL AGE
A snippet from THE MILLENNIAL AGE
We have seen that the Millennial age with all its glory is filled with judgment and with an iron rule; and that notwithstanding its unspeakable blessings and Israel's preeminence, it is far from a perfect state. It can not be the final age. The final age must come with the New Heavens and the New Earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."
THE MILLENIAL AGE
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch7millenial_age.html
(Absolutely!) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
SOMETHING TO PONDER
THE NEW BIRTH CONTRASTED WITH THE NEW CREATION
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/newbirth.html
The "Offer" – Kenneth Larsen
Imagine this scenario. An automobile manufacturer builds a vehicle
model which it hopes will become a great success. During testing,
however, it becomes apparent that the car suffers from a severe design
flaw and would pose an imminent danger to the public were it released
for sale. Instead of correcting the flaw, the manufacturer decides it
has a better idea; it mentions the flaw on page 122 of the owner's
manual and explains there how the owner can have the defect corrected
at the nearest dealership "free of charge".
Does it appear rather lopsided that the vehicle is sold to
unsuspecting customers with little if any mention of the design
defect? Does it appear rather absurd that the responsibility for
discovering the dangerous defect and having it corrected falls upon
the buyer, when the builder could have fixed the problem before taking
the car to market?
Imagine this scenario. Because of the sin of our forefather, Adam, we
all inherit sin and mortality. None of us are tested as he was, in
order to see if we will be a righteous person or a sinner; we are all
given mortality. Our choices have nothing to do with our present
condition as sinners; we are born that way.
As for salvation from sin and death, that will depend on finding the
proper message and acting on it in an effective manner; otherwise the
condition we inherit at birth will be our everlasting downfall.
Does it appear rather lopsided that the condemnation is universal and
our choice has nothing to do with it, but our salvation from that
condemnation requires our active participation? Does it appear rather
absurd that the responsibility for obtaining salvation depends, in the
final analysis, upon each individual, while we are in no way
responsibe for our needing that salvation in the first place? Doesn't
it seem strange that perdition is an inherited condition, while
salvation is only an "offer" made to those fortunate enough to stumble
upon it?
Fact is, salvation is not an offer we happen upon; it's a gift. And a
Savior is One Who saves. In 1 Timothy 4:9-11, we read, "Faithful is
the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and
being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour
of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and
teaching." God is the Savior of all mankind, for salvation is the
destiny of all. 1 Cor. 15:20-28; 1 Tim. 4:10; Jn. 12:32; Col. 1:20;
Eph. 1:10; Ro. 5:18, 19; Phil. 2:9-11. God is the Savior of believers
especially because He prefers some from the beginning for salvation
now and during the eons of the eons (2 Thes. 2:13; Rev. 20:4, 5).
Others are vessels of indignation, as indicated in Romans 9, and will
not be saved until the consummation mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:24.
Salvation is not an "offer"; God enlightens all, at the time He
chooses. John 1:9-13.
:thumbsup:
In a sense, we are all vessels of indignation God has endured for a period.
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Eph 2:1-4)
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.(Rom 11:32)
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor 15:22)
Those who are chosen for salvation in this age are chosen by grace, as the first fruits of the harvest of all.
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.(James 1:18)
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.(Rom 8:18-21)
That we who were saved by grace from sin could share that grace with the rest of the harvest, till all are gathered in.
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:17-19)
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:4-10)
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. (Eph 1:9-12)
This is the inheritance of the saints in the light :o)
...and woe to (all) those who never even had any access whatsoever to an owners manual?! :faint:
The Word and logic tells us different!
Amen EW! ..I especially love to think about the verse "made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in sin!" And what's true for us is true for all.. He simply has an "order".. And we can be sure His blueprint, plan, order, and working out is utterly perfect..
A snippet from THE PRESENCE – Walter Lanyon
Do you feel the' Presence and understand what it is to recognize for a moment
that nothing----no, not anything -----is to be destroyed, but everything is to be fulfilled with the Love of God which only has to be recognized to change the imagination and shatter the belief that held it into its outline of ugliness?
Formerly we went out to battle with the thing called evil ----now we have reduced it to the vacuum of belief in the absence of God. No matter how rampant it may be, and how destructive in its manifestation, or how terrible in its dimensions----it is in the final analysis the absence of God, and this absence of God can only exist in the imagination,
for God is omnipresent.
"I come not to destroy but to fulfill" will thrill you and relieve you of all the hateful warfare with evil that has been going on------it will bring you to a true understanding of the non-resistance of the Christ Mind within you and make you understand the height and depth and majesty of this Presence.
It is wonderful-----it is glorious------it causes the Hosannas to rise from the very centre of your being and magnify the Lord of Lords and Host of Hosts.
THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD
"This is, indeed, the Christ, the Savior of the world." John 4:42
First, Christ died for all mankind. Under this proposition consider
the language recorded in the nineteenth chapter of the Gospel of Luke,
tenth verse:
"For the son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
John 4:34:—"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him
that sent me, and to finish his work." Hebrews 2:9:—"He tasted death
for every man."
Secondly, under this proposition, Jesus Christ was endowed and
possessed power to do everything that he undertook to do:
John 17:2:—"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he
should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." Matthew
28:18:—"And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, All power is given
unto me in heaven and in earth."
Thus, he came to save all, has sufficient power to save all, and,
thirdly, he will succeed in saving all, which I demonstrate from
Isaiah 53:10-11:
"The pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of
the travail of his soul, and be SATISFIED."
Now, ...inasmuch as Jesus came to accomplish the salvation of the entire
human family, he never would be satisfied if he were defeated. If any
of you undertake an enterprise, and get beaten, you never can say you
are satisfied. Our Lord is to "see of the travail of his soul, and be
satisfied." Inasmuch as he came for the purpose of accomplishing
universal redemption, it is demonstrated that he will succeed, because
he will ultimately be satisfied.
The apostle John says:—"The Father loveth the son, and hath given all
things into his band." In John 4:42:—"This is, indeed, the Christ, the
Savior of the world."
- JOHN WESLEY HANSON, 1879
Quote from: marie glen on February 09, 2016, 11:36:18 PM
Amen EW! ..I especially love to think about the verse "made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in sin!" And what's true for us is true for all.. He simply has an "order".. And we can be sure His blueprint, plan, order, and working out is utterly perfect..
:thumbsup: :iagree:
THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
My collection of random thoughts on the human will.
There is some repetition for emphasis.
THERE IS NO "CHANCE" THAT WE CAN CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE
Our choices are not made because we had a "chance" to make, or not to make them.
I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God's decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God's preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
The kind of fatalism that I reject is the kind that says that things happen no matter what we do.
The truth is that things happen because of what we do, even though what we choose to do is caused by the reasons why we want to choose a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice at any give point in time.
A few seconds before, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
A few seconds later, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
It may even be true that most of the time we would have wanted to choose something else the MOST.
But at that point in time when we actually make a choice, it's because we want it the MOST, and, at that point in time there is no "chance" that we could have chosen anything else.
As a theistic determinist I believe that nothing happens by "chance" and that God intends to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone, than had it not occurred. That includes the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as kolasis aionion (age during corrective chastisement) that everyone who needs it will experience. Then, when the existence of evil and suffering has served God's purpose, He will eradicate both of them from our existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL by A.P. Adams is good on this subject!
http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html
As far as salvation is concerned I don't believe it happens because we are given a "chance."
As a universalist I believe the Bible teaches that the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be saved first. Then all of the non-elect will be saved later.
The following two links are good on this subject.
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS
God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
and
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible with Concordance, God's purpose of the eons.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.
The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.
Everything we do is the product of a cause, that cause being the reasons why we prefer one choice the MOST, instead of a different choice.
The fact that you chose it proves that you preferred it at least slightly more than some other choice, or you would not have chosen it.
Your reasons for choosing what you choose are the cause of your making any choice. It is not possible to make a different choice from what your combined reasonings motivate you to prefer the MOST at any point in time.
Nothing God does is "meaningless." When we look back from the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time, everyone will agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.
It is not even possible to choose any differently (after due deliberation or instantly) than the combined reasonings persuade us to prefer that choice the MOST at that particular moment in time, so much so that we actually do choose it.
In other words, the only "free" will we have is to choose what our combined reasonings persuade us in the choice that we prefer the MOST at that particular point in time. It is not even possible that any other choice could have been made than that one.
It is not even possible to not choose what that reason persuades us is the choice we want to make the MOST at any particular moment in time.
A man devises his ways by using all the info at his disposal.
The end result will be the only "way" he could have devised.
Considering all combined influences in devising that particular way, there simply was no other way that he could have devised at that particular point in time.
We will work out our salvation in response to the combined influences that cause us to work it out in a particular way, the only way that we could possibly work it out. No other way could even be possible.
We are individuals who always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings persuade us is the choice that we prefer the MOST. The fact that we actually choose it proves that we prefer it the MOST.
No other choice is even possible.
The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.
In the case of humans the cause is the combined reasonings why we prefer one choice the MOST instead of a different one.
It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer MOST.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it MOST even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.
During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.
If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose. That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.
In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.
Our not wanting to reap the consequences becomes part of the reasoning process that causes us to choose to change our ways. The "not wanting" becomes so strong that it is no longer possible to choose to reap the consequences.
The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, or not, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.
The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.
That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.
The idea that it is wrong for God to hold us accountable for choices that we cannot help making is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is what we want to choose the MOST.
Like I said before, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
That is why I call myself a theistic determinist.
I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
I'm convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
Scripturally or otherwise, it has, and always will be true, that we always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings and feelings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.
The fact that we choose some certain thing instead of something else, proves that we preferred that certain thing the MOST, even though we may try to claim that we really preferred something else the most.
I agree with Albert Einstein, who said, "I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."
Albert Einstein, IDEAS AND OPINIONS, pp.8,39; New York: Crown Publishers, 1954
Instead of God being a "gentleman," I worship a God Who will, sooner or later, successfully influence the will of every fallen creature for their own good, so they will WANT what He wants for them, which does not include sustaining them alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering or annihilating them.
I call myself a theistic determinist because I believe in a God Who has decided that the fate of every fallen creature will be salvation from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
As Martin Zender puts it
"We all have wills, they are just not free.
Then why do we even exist, we might ask? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother letting us think that we're free?
I think it is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.
It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.
I think the idea is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let's let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (but not actual) freedom." (end quote)
I think that negative experiences work into us the motivation to choose differently in the future.
The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.
Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul's will "free."
But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that "the sin that dwelt within him" (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul's will in his war with his sinful nature.
I found it helpful what Ray Prinzing said.
"Don't accept condemnation for not being able to "work out" what God has not yet worked into you."
Without exception, every person comes to the point of actually choosing what the combination of their reasonings and feelings tell them they prefer the MOST. When that choice has been decided upon, it is impossible to avoid making that particular choice at that split second in time.
In other words, when it comes down to actually making a choice, either after due deliberation, or instantly, we will always choose what we have decided that we prefer the MOST.
Here's the way that James Coram puts it.
"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference."
The commitment of Jesus to do the will of His Father far outweighed His desire to escape the suffering He saw ahead of Him.
He definitely made the choice that He preferred the MOST.
In fact, that is the only choice that any of us can make, i.e. the choice that we prefer the MOST.
Everyone will ALWAYS choose what they both prefer and desire the MOST.
Here's the way that James Coram puts it.
"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.
Albert Einstein put it this way "I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."
My own quote.
"After due deliberation we always make the choice that our combined reasonings and feelings (i.e. preferences and desires) convince us is the choice that we prefer and desire the MOST.
The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer and desire it the MOST, or we would have made some other choice instead."
If we choose "the tough thing" it is ONLY because we prefer that choice.
Our reasonings and feelings combine to influence us to prefer that choice the MOST instead of a choice that is not as "tough."
I'll try putting it a different way.
Everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
What we prefer MOST, and what we determine is the best course of action from the information available are one and the same thing.
I find it completely relaxing to go through life believing that I am controlled by the strings in God's loving hands!
We do share one thing in common with puppets, and that is causality.
Everything we do is the product of a cause.
And that cause is the combined reasonings and feelings that persuade us to prefer a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice.
It is not even possible to choose what we do not prefer the MOST.
As a UR, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.
That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
POST SCRIPT:
Limited free will is an oxymoron - a contradiction in terms.
Limited means constrained.
Free means without constraint.
EXCELLENT :dsunny:just excellent :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
TRANSLATIONS
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Chapter Eleven
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
1. Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."
2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."
3. Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"
5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age."
8. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."
9. Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."
10. The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."
12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."
13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of "everlasting punishment."
14. Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)".
15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment." The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.
I found this link helpful.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/spiritblasphemy.html
The correct literal translation:
Mk 3: 28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the
sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies,
whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be
blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin- (Concordant Literal
Translation)
:thumbsup:
quote author=micah7:9 link=topic=9816.msg196322#msg196322 date=1455782176]
Quote from: jabcat on February 18, 2016, 08:58:09 AM
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
[/quote]
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 18, 2016, 08:55:53 AM
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.
I found this link helpful.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/spiritblasphemy.html
The correct literal translation:
Mk 3: 28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the
sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies,
whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be
blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin- (Concordant Literal
Translation)
"
because they said, '
he has an unclean spirit' " (Mark 3:30)
THE EVENTUAL SAVING OF EVERYONE FROM EVERYTHING FROM WHICH THEY NEED TO BE SAVED
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
An excellent website expounding Christian Biblical Universal Salvation
VESSELS OF DISHONOR
For anyone who may be interested, all of the arguments presented by ETers that universalism is not scriptural have been refuted in detail in this online book.
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (published 2007)
It can be downloaded free and read online here
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
I thank God for being able to see that believers in eternal torment will remain believers in eternal torment for as long as God wants them to.
God needs them as vessels of the grossest dishonor, a foil of contrast against which He will demonstrate the power of His love that never fails and His undefeatable grace.
But after the resurrection God will refashion all believers in eternal torment into vessels of honor because they were marred in the Potter's hands and they never leave His hands.
The doctrine of eternal torment is part of the black background against which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation, using the paint brushes of His love that never fails, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
After believers in eternal torment have done their very best to convince others about what God will not do, God is going to do it anyway.
Believers in eternal torment will probably not want to have anything to do with this link, but others on this forum might.
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
I personally believe Hope Beyond Hell is the most effective all-around presentation of the salvation of all out there.
It is comprehensive, but also well organized and written in a "user-friendly" way that is understandable a scripturally balanced.
It is the one book that I keep extra copies of always, and give away to people who are interested but require a thorough examination over time and on their own time in order to believe.
I highly recommend it.
"VOMIT"
On City Data Christian forum, a poster named twin-spin frequently refers to UR as "vomit."
twin-spin's "vomit" versus UR's "vomit"
twin-spin's definition of "vomit"
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
UR's defintion of "vomit"
Sustaining anyone alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
A snippet from A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
"We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called 'goodness.'
In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.
We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God's creatures miserable; and this is called 'badness.'
Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures? No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close."
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 23, 2016, 08:37:55 AM
"VOMIT"
On City Data Christian forum, a poster named twin-spin frequently refers to UR as "vomit."
twin-spin's "vomit" versus UR's "vomit"
twin-spin's definition of "vomit"
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
UR's defintion of "vomit"
Sustaining anyone alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
the perfect song for the fire breathing 'hellists' and 'hellators' and their sadistic god.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaHEusBG20c
I am the god of hell fire and I bring you:
Fire, I'll take you to burn.
Fire, I'll take you to learn.
I'll see you burn!
You fought hard and you saved and learned,
but all of it's going to burn.
And your mind, your tiny mind,
you know you've really been so blind.
Now 's your time burn your mind.
You're falling far too far behind.
Oh no, oh no, oh no, you gonna burn!
Fire, to destroy all you've done.
Fire, to end all you've become.
I'll feel you burn!
You've been living like a little girl,
in the middle of your little world.
And your mind, your tiny mind,
you know you've really been so blind.
Now 's your time burn your mind,
you're falling far too far behind
Read more: Arthur Brown - Fire Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Don't you love it , to know that the wisdom of THIS WORLD ,[ the serpents food is dust and ashes burning wood , hay and stubble ] is foolishness to GOD
True wisdom is knowing the Lord Jesus Christ and His offering is what is required to appease the wrath of God !! GOD HAS BLESSED !!
Wisdom of the world is foolishness to God and as it burns up in the world as smoke and mirrors darkly 1 Cor 3 is full of USEFUL TRUTH applied as a Spiritual building material ..
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+3)
WE DIFFER FROM ETERS
We differ on what we perceive to be of the Holy Spirit.
Interested students will examine the contents of the links I post, and will decide for themselves whether or not they think what it says is of the Holy Spirit.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 77 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about "eternal hell" nearly always gets bogged down with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is nearly always a stalemate. We also differ about what we perceive to be of the Holy Spirit.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
Also see THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 24, 2016, 10:04:13 AM
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
'
some ?...most 'hellators' believe most of humankind will end up in eternal hell..that's what confounds me about them..even when provided with all the UR evidence they still hold onto this belief..I cant understand it...when I was confronted with UR evidence I changed my position...but most hellators do not,.thats what upsets me about them..their stubbornness..their stubborn desire to hold onto this evil doctrine at all costs without even considering the evidence for UR...Grrrrr !...sighhhh ! :dontknow:
Quote from: darryl on February 25, 2016, 12:20:35 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 24, 2016, 10:04:13 AM
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
'
some ?...most 'hellators' believe most of humankind will end up in eternal hell..that's what confounds me about them..even when provided with all the UR evidence they still hold onto this belief..I cant understand it...when I was confronted with UR evidence I changed my position...but most hellators do not,.thats what upsets me about them..their stubbornness..their stubborn desire to hold onto this evil doctrine at all costs without even considering the evidence for UR...Grrrrr !...sighhhh ! :dontknow:
I believe with all my heart Jesus Christ come when He did to give us a wonderful and FULL LIFE =HIS OWN
We could know the LOVE OF GOD now and help others to know this too just by sharing and living in Jesus peace , this powerful confidence in GOD
Perfect love cast out fear and fear is torment to the lives of humanity by the masses
We are only human for a short while , God in His mercy has done that already for us :HeartThrob:
Amen Rose
Quote from: rosered on February 25, 2016, 03:09:30 AM
Quote from: darryl on February 25, 2016, 12:20:35 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 24, 2016, 10:04:13 AM
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
'
some ?...most 'hellators' believe most of humankind will end up in eternal hell..that's what confounds me about them..even when provided with all the UR evidence they still hold onto this belief..I cant understand it...when I was confronted with UR evidence I changed my position...but most hellators do not,.thats what upsets me about them..their stubbornness..their stubborn desire to hold onto this evil doctrine at all costs without even considering the evidence for UR...Grrrrr !...sighhhh ! :dontknow:
I believe with all my heart Jesus Christ come when He did to give us a wonderful and FULL LIFE =HIS OWN
We could know the LOVE OF GOD now and help others to know this too just by sharing and living in Jesus peace , this powerful confidence in GOD
Perfect love cast out fear and fear is torment to the lives of humanity by the masses
We are only human for a short while , God in His mercy has done that already for us :HeartThrob:
:iagree: :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT IMO SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/
A snippet from
"ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4
The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7."
WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX
"That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We've portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it's up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.
We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation 'is not of him that willeth' (any decision we make of ourselves), 'nor of him that runneth' (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 28, 2016, 02:25:32 PM
WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX
"That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We've portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it's up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.
We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation 'is not of him that willeth' (any decision we make of ourselves), 'nor of him that runneth' (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
Excellent!!! :iagree::thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
God's Wisdom is the Light of the mind
God's Love is the Light of the heart
"All you have made will praise you, O Lord." (Psalm 145:10a, NIV)
Why did Christ have to die such a horrific death? That question was posed to me by an on-line reader of The Glory Road over ten years ago now. I gave it my best shot as did Harry Fox and John Gavazzoni. The reader wasn't convinced, but I want to share Harry's one sentence answer to the man: "Crucifixion," or its equivalent, is INTRINSIC to the kind of love in which God forgave and continues to forgive us, His enemies, who nailed Jesus to a cross (cf. Rom. 5:6-10; Col. 1:21-22). Romans 5:10, asks this question: "For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life ?" The verse in Col. 1:21 shows the scope of that love: "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
Jan Antonsson
WILLIAM BARCLAY
I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST - By William Barclay (well known Christian Bible expositor)
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Barclay/Barclay_convinced.htm
The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm
By William Barclay (well known Bible expositor)
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God."
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]
The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm
Is there a page on tentmaker that would be "U.R. geared toward nonbelievers"?? Anybody know of one?
This thread (by tm55) is asking for a website.. i thought maybe there's a page here? -
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/ur-websites-geared-toward-non-believers-does-anybody-know-of-one/
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " - E.G.Jones
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-in-all.htm
At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the 'potential' savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.
Don Bast
YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID – Kenneth Larsen
"You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt. 5:43-48.
You have heard that it was said, "God hates those people so much He's going to torment them in the flames."
But God says, "To no one render evil for evil; rather, conquer evil with good. In doing this, you will be heaping embers of fire on his head." Ro. 12:17-21.
You have heard that it was said, "God offers salvation to all mankind, but only saves those who believe before they die."
But God says, "I AM the living God, the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." 1 Timothy 4:10, 11.
You have heard that it was said, "Some people are impossible to save; their stubborn will is just too strong!"
But God says, "With Me nothing is impossible; no one is stronger than Me!" Matt. 19:25, 26; 1 Cor. 10:22.
You have heard that it was said, "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
But God says, "Through Christ I will reconcile all to Myself (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." Colossians 1:20, 21.
You have heard that it was said, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, all those who are in Christ shall be vivified."
But God says, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22.
You have heard that it was said, "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
But God says, "No one is seeking Me. All avoid Me. Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of My mercy." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
You have heard that it was said, "The second death will be eternal; there's no escaping the lake of fire."
But God says, "The last enemy is being abolished: death." 1 Corinthians 15:26.
You have heard that it was said, "When God doesn't give the person the chance to hear the Gospel, it's because He knows they would have rejected it anyway."
But God says, "My saving grace makes its advent to all humanity. Jesus enlightens every soul who enters the world, and He will draw all to Himself." Titus 2:11; Jn. 1:9; 12:32.
You have heard that it was said, "The subjection of all to Christ will, in many cases, involve compulsion, rather than the reception of a body of glory."
But God says, "Christ will transfigure the body of humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself. Every tongue will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, by Holy Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:3; Phil. 2:9-11; 3:21.
You have heard that it was said, "All mankind is condemned in Adam, but only some of them will receive justification in Christ."
But God says, "Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." Romans 5:18, 19.
You have heard that it was said, "God wills all mankind be saved, but that's really just wishful thinking."
But God says, "The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, annulling the acts of the Adversary! My will is to save all, and I operate all in accord with the counsel of My will." John 1:29; 1 Jn. 3:8; 1 Tim. 2:1-6; Eph. 1:11.
You have heard that it was said, "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
But God says, "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
You have heard that it was said, "There are some things about God we are not to understand"
But God says, "For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known." (Luke 12:2)
ANNIHILATION
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):
A writing by Gary Amirault specifically refuting the arguments that seemingly support the idea that the Bible teaches annihilation and showing that the Bible teaches universal salvation instead.
One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
INTRODUCTION
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
IMO the following should be required reading for all Bible school students.
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
RESPONSES TO PHILISOPHICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
Great interview. Thanks for the link. :Peace2:
..calvinists and many arminianists believe people will burn forever in hell ...on top of all the suffering the world gone thru we're s'posed to believe this ? :..no, it cannot be ,,.why dont they read jeremiah where God says He hates molech ?..the god of burning fire ?...so, God hates molech cos he burns folks but will burn folks Himself ?...bahhh !..thats nonsense.
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
Imagine! Spurgeon having said such a thing!! :faint: Yahweh and Christ may "curtail" "correct" and even "punish", but torture? Not logical whatsoever. Amazing what
illogic the human mind - even the saved or devout - can actually believe..
circularity
Quote
..."When we understand the glorious truth that our God is both the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, then we realize that no matter how vast the cycle and circuit, the end is secure, for all things return unto Him again. To read only a portion of God's Word, the facts are too few to rightly calculate the CURVE of God's plan. And while HE does, gloriously, illumine a specific verse or sentence to speak to our hearts for that day, we also need the full sweep of the Book to gain an overall view of His purpose, and then understand the tremendous victory which is ours in Christ".
Long milleniums ago Adam was banished from the Paradise of God and its life-giving tree. But God has provided a way by which His banished may return! Some glad morning, when the unfolding plan of God is complete, all who once stood "in Adam" in the Garden will again be gathered together and their eyes will behold with endless joy that heaven blest Eden in which walked Adam, the son of God. But even now there is a remnant, the election of grace, the firstfruits of His redemption WHO IN SPIRIT HAVE ENTERED THOSE ONCE-CLOSED PORTALS AND HAVE PARTAKEN OF THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF LIFE! In the power of the Christ, the last Adam, though the firstfruits of Christ's redemption still move about in a world which is under the curse, where the traces of sin are visible on all hands, these have found their way, by faith, to the bosom of the Father, and are NOW AT HOME AGAIN IN GOD! The mighty transformation that has come and is coming to our lives shall be experienced ultimately by ALL MEN, God's own law of circularity secures it, and none can resist it, praise His glorious name!"
Amen! (logic restored..)
Am I understanding correctly that the above quote is by Spurgeon?
If so does anyone know which of his writings it its from? :dontknow:
from what I know, Spurgeon was far from being a UR believer..unless he changed !..be great if he did !
Spurgeon Quotes on Universalism
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob these deep thinkers cannot endure, but if you say that God is angry with the wicked every day, these modern god-makers tell you that he is too loving for that,—that he cannot possibly be angry, but loves all, has redeemed all, and will in the long run save all, including Satan himself. C.H. Spurgeon
Men seem to think that God is under obligation to grant salvation to guilty men; that if he saves one he must save all. They talk about rights, as if any man had any right before the throne of God, except the right to be punished for his sin. C.H. Spurgeon
As I have warned you before, abhor the doctrine of the universal fatherhood of God, for it is a lie, and a deep deception. It stabs at the heart, first, of the doctrine of the adoption, which is taught in Scripture, for how can God adopt men if they are all his children already? In the second place, it stabs at the heart of the doctrine of regeneration, which is certainly taught in the Word of God. Note it is by regeneration and faith that we become the children of God, but how can that be if we are the children of God already? C.H. Spurgeon
There has been spreading, in this country, and in other lands also, the idea of universal salvation; and, mark you, wherever that doctrine spreads, vice must and will spread as the natural and inevitable consequence. When men are taught to believe in ultimate universal salvation, their immediate and legitimate inference is, "Then we may live as we like, and all will come right in the end;" and they will live as they like, but all will not come right in the end! C.H. Spurgeon
Thanks darryl.
Does anyone know who wrote the quote that marie posted?
It is very good!
I posted it on face book without naming who wrote it.
J. Preston Eby wrote that. See the last paragraph in his article on tentamker.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
:dsunny:
Thanks Joe
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
SIX WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
WHAT JESUS REALLY TAUGHT ABOUT "HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html
W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 17, 2016, 08:50:02 AM
Thanks darryl.
Does anyone know who wrote the quote that marie posted?
It is very good!
I posted it on face book without naming who wrote it.
no, Rodger..haven't got a clue who wrote it. Sorry.
thanks darryl, joeteekay says J. Preston Eby wrote it.
He posted this link for it
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
I might have guessed. It sounds like Preston :-)
Having read several books and other writings against the Bible teaching universal salvation it is my observation that the authors (like Spurgeon) simply could not accept God's plan for the ages of time as revealed in a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible.
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
The web site saviourofall.org and Joseph Kirk provides a very good explanation of the eons and the salvation of all.
However the source I found immensely valuable like no other is in this publication by A. E. Knoch. IMO he was the real trailblazer under God' inspiration in revealing the true meaning of the original scripture. His explanation on the eons start near the end of this publication. The book was scanned in PDF format and therefore not like other pdf documents. I have referred to this book many times and find it incredibly insightful.
http://www.concordant.org/online/All_in_all-A.E.KNOCH.pdf
:dsunny:
Joe
Thanks joe. :iagree:
I was also helped a lot by Knoch's book
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 19, 2016, 02:44:59 PM
thanks darryl, joeteekay says J. Preston Eby wrote it.
He posted this link for it
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
I might have guessed. It sounds like Preston :-)
k..thanks ..cheers !
CONSEQUENSES OF TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF "ETERNAL HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
INSANITY
Does traditional Christianity cause insanity? Many seem to think so. This video is the story a pastor and his daughter of their journey from the traditional turn or burn gospel to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like it on Facebook and please send links to your family and friends. Gary Amirault
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnZRms3XZE
Are Christians Greater Idol Worshippers Than Israel Was? I fear so. See for yourself:
Christian Molech Worship
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuhBdWbJXQ
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL BE IN HEAVEN
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 30, 2016, 11:04:23 AM
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
ETers claim the phrase 'unto the ages of the ages' denotes eternality cos its used in reference to God and Jesus...eg, Jesus says He was dead but now lives 'unto the ages of the ages' but here, in my opinion, Jesus is stressing the penultimate two final ages of God's salvific acts on behalf of humankind which result in the salvation of all..of course Jesus lives past these 'ages of ages' even forevermore as evinced by other passages stressing His immortal incorruptible nature..but, God uses words for good reasons and He uses 'ages of the ages' here to stress a point...a point which sadly, the ETers miss entirely.
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 28, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
[/size]
The events in the last eon raise some questions that forum members may have further insight. I have read the works of AE Knoch, J Preston Eby, Adlai Loudy, William W. Bentley, Jr, James Corman and others. They all believe in the salvation of all. But seems to me there is a lack of consistency in their explanations about this last eon. Mr. Knoch, who was given much understanding, sees the last eon as lasting a long, long time - many generations. I agree with that. But the questions which I have yet to find answers relate to :The last eon is when the earth is renewed with fervent heat, heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth and the rest of the dead are resurrected. This is the time of the white throne judgement for all resurrected mankind. God dwells with mankind (still flesh) and judges from His white throne in righteous judgement.We are told in Revelation that in this eon there is no need for the sun, people will not die during this eon because of access to the tree of life, there will be fruit of trees for healing of nations. No more death because of taking the tree of life during this eon. It will be a time of peace and joy under Christ's ruler ship..Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
The lake of fire is first mentioned as the place of torment for the Adversary, the false prophet and the beast in the millennium period. The lake of fire will continue until the consummation.
From scripture it seems that the great white judgement begins at the start of the last eon when the dead are raised for judgement. Does judgement last for the entire eon? This eon is a time when mankind will dwell in peace and harmony under the ruler ship of Christ (no rod of iron in this eon). And mankind will live and not die because of taking the tree of life (Rev. 21:4)? And no pain nor crying.Question?How is the lake of fire associated with the judgement at the white throne? Will the lake of fire be in effect during the white throne judgement period which is the last eon? If it is and it probably is, will all of mankind be subject to the lake of fire during the last eon? We know the lake of fire is not literal, but it is real. If people are living in peace and tranquillity, how can they also experience the Lake of Fire? Is the lake of fire in effect for the entire eon, or just at the consummation? Then we have the second death.Death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire - the second death. The lake of fire ceases at the consummation. Is judgement an ongoing process during the eon? Do people continue to live in that eon while being judged? How do the results of those judgements play out? At the end of the eon will all the billions living in that eon die the second death (not having been written in the book of life) and then be "made alive", vivified, made immortal at the consummation? Help on this process and how these event transpire would help me greatly.Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Maybe someone with better understanding than I have will respond to joeteekay's concerns. I will just move on with my postings. :dontknow: :-)
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/
Quote from: joeteekay on March 30, 2016, 05:07:04 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 28, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
[/size]
The events in the last eon raise some questions that forum members may have further insight. I have read the works of AE Knoch, J Preston Eby, Adlai Loudy, William W. Bentley, Jr, James Corman and others. They all believe in the salvation of all. But seems to me there is a lack of consistency in their explanations about this last eon. Mr. Knoch, who was given much understanding, sees the last eon as lasting a long, long time - many generations. I agree with that. But the questions which I have yet to find answers relate to :
The last eon is when the earth is renewed with fervent heat, heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth and the rest of the dead are resurrected. This is the time of the white throne judgement for all resurrected mankind. God dwells with mankind (still flesh) and judges from His white throne in righteous judgement.
We are told in Revelation that in this eon there is no need for the sun, people will not die during this eon because of access to the tree of life, there will be fruit of trees for healing of nations. No more death because of taking the tree of life during this eon. It will be a time of peace and joy under Christ's ruler ship..
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
The lake of fire is first mentioned as the place of torment for the Adversary, the false prophet and the beast in the millennium period. The lake of fire will continue until the consummation.
From scripture it seems that the great white judgement begins at the start of the last eon when the dead are raised for judgement. Does judgement last for the entire eon? This eon is a time when mankind will dwell in peace and harmony under the ruler ship of Christ (no rod of iron in this eon). And mankind will live and not die because of taking the tree of life (Rev. 21:4)? And no pain nor crying.
Question?
How is the lake of fire associated with the judgement at the white throne? Will the lake of fire be in effect during the white throne judgement period which is the last eon? If it is and it probably is, will all of mankind be subject to the lake of fire during the last eon? We know the lake of fire is not literal, but it is real. If people are living in peace and tranquillity, how can they also experience the Lake of Fire? Is the lake of fire in effect for the entire eon, or just at the consummation?
Then we have the second death.
Death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire - the second death. The lake of fire ceases at the consummation. Is judgement an ongoing process during the eon? Do people continue to live in that eon while being judged? How do the results of those judgements play out? At the end of the eon will all the billions living in that eon die the second death (not having been written in the book of life) and then be "made alive", vivified, made immortal at the consummation? Help on this process and how these event transpire would help me greatly.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
in my opinion the final 2 ages (the 'ages of the ages') equate to the 2 final inner rooms of the temple, the 'Holies of the Holies'.These final two ages are the 'White Throne judgement age' and the 'Lake of Fire age'.
These 2 final 'ages of the ages' complete the 7 Ages of God's salvific dealings with humankind which result in the salvation of All and also fits nicely with the number 8 which represents 'new beginning' and 'regeneration' in the Bible.
After the completion of these 7 ages, a 'new beginning' of peace, joy and salvation for ALL will commence lasting throughout all eternity.
:dsunny:
Is this a help?
Regarding the words translated "forever and ever"
From AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
As mentioned previously, there are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.
As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5.
Quote
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
:dsunny: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote
in my opinion the final 2 ages (the 'ages of the ages') equate to the 2 final inner rooms of the temple, the 'Holies of the Holies'.These final two ages are the 'White Throne judgement age' and the 'Lake of Fire age'.
:Chinscratch: hmmm, i never thought of that.. interesting... certainly God's throne is central to both - the inner rooms and the final two ages which are in the Book of Revelation.
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 31, 2016, 05:10:42 PM
Is this a help?
yes, this too, very helpful! :thumbsup:
..................................................................
....it's at Christ's return that the false prophet and the world (big) beast (imo, rev 13:1-10, not 11-18) - two institutions "alive" and active at the time - are cast into the lake of fire/2nd death.
..the judgment at that time (verse 20:4) is judgment upon the world, when the goats are gathered to armageddon and the sheep into His barn..
..At which time is the "
first resurrection"
Then is the
1000 yr (millennium) reign of Jesus - during which time, also, that serpent of old, the dragon is shut up into the abyss of darkness (20:1-3)
and "the rest of the dead live not again
until the thousand years are ended" (verse 5).
Verse 7 - "And when the thousand years are completed.." (the second resurrection) "a great white throne.. the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is the scroll of life" -- Isn't this likely to be a 'day' of intense review of all human history? (Certainly would be wasteful if it wasn't?) Where does it say no one's name can be written upon the scroll of life during this day? (During this age)? It is presumed and assumed to be the case, but where does it
say it? What is required for the name to be written upon the scroll of life?
[ image of how ages = U.R. - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html ]
from Revelation ch 21:1-6 - "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth.. the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride.. a loud voice from the throne, saying, "See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them, and be their God.. He will wipe every tear from their eyes.. no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying ..no more pain..He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make ALL things new".. .."It is done!"
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 31, 2016, 05:10:42 PM
Is this a help?
Regarding the words translated "forever and ever"
From AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
As mentioned previously, there are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.
As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5.
yes, isn't it marvelous ?...7 ages..and 7 is the perfect number of God !..please read Bullinger's book on Bible Numerics..the number 7 is so significant. The number following, the number '8' stands for 'a new beginning' according to Bullinger.
It's wonderful cos it shows God is totally in control and has framed,created and perfected the 'Ages' for the benefit of humankind.
I love the deep Biblical doctrine of the Ages. It's a pity its so neglected in the church but I guess with their shallow and thoughtless emphasis on 'eternal judgement in hell' they miss the deeper Truths of God's precious Word.
Plus their 'eternal torment in hell' concept does not fit in with the doctrine of God's salvific doctrine of the Ages so the ETers throw it out.
Yes. Amen!
I see the eon of the eons as the period after which the last adversary is nullified and God becomes all in all.
The age of the ages!
By this point all death, including the second death, will have been dissolved because all adversaries will have been subjected and reconciled- all will have been gathered into life without end.
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory to/into/for (eis) the ages(tous aionas)!
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2016, 09:29:18 PM
Yes. Amen!
I see the eon of the eons as the period after which the last adversary is nullified and God becomes all in all.
The age of the ages!
By this point all death, including the second death, will have been dissolved because all adversaries will have been subjected and reconciled- all will have been gathered into life without end.
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory to/into/for (eis) the ages(tous aionas)!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!!
Quote from: darryl on April 01, 2016, 05:28:31 AM
yes, isn't it marvelous ?...7 ages..and 7 is the perfect number of God !..please read Bullinger's book on Bible Numerics..the number 7 is so significant. The number following, the number '8' stands for 'a new beginning' according to Bullinger.
It's wonderful cos it shows God is totally in control and has framed,created and perfected the 'Ages' for the benefit of humankind.
I love the deep Biblical doctrine of the Ages. It's a pity its so neglected in the church but I guess with their shallow and thoughtless emphasis on 'eternal judgement in hell' they miss the deeper Truths of God's precious Word.
Plus their 'eternal torment in hell' concept does not fit in with the doctrine of God's salvific doctrine of the Ages so the ETers throw it out.
very interesting.. :Chinscratch: :smile:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2016, 09:29:18 PM
Yes. Amen!
I see the eon of the eons as the period after which the last adversary is nullified and God becomes all in all.
The age of the ages!
By this point all death, including the second death, will have been dissolved because all adversaries will have been subjected and reconciled- all will have been gathered into life without end.
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory to/into/for (eis) the ages(tous aionas)!
Yes !.Amen and amen. :dsunny:
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
Copy and paste the links into your browser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
WHAT JESUS REALLY TAUGHT ABOUT "HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/answering-matt-slick's-article-against-universalism/msg28882/#msg28882
Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Hal Lindsey
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm
Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html
W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html
THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theherald...org/Library.htm
Answers to hundreds of questions raised by partialists about universal reconciliation:
http://www.urqa.com/
IMO A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
SIX WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
WHAT JESUS REALLY TAUGHT ABOUT "HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html
W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
What a great resource!
THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm
Answers to hundreds of questions raised by partialists about universal reconciliation:
http://www.urqa.com/
Great site! [ http://www.urqa.com/ ] I read the ones listed by the site.. and see there is lots of material that looks very interesting! So I bookmarked it to read more later.. thanks! I'm sure the others are great too!
INSANITY
Does traditional Christianity cause insanity? Many seem to think so. This video is the story a pastor and his daughter of their journey from the traditional turn or burn gospel to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like it on Facebook and please send links to your family and friends. Gary Amirault
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnZRms3XZE
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
CONSEQUENSES OF TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF "ETERNAL HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
Are Christians Greater Idol Worshippers Than Israel Was? I fear so. See for yourself:
Christian Molech Worship
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuhBdWbJXQ
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sooner or later everyone will do the will of the Father and will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
\o/
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL GO TO HEAVEN
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
IMO A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/
A snippet from 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
(another book in my hard copy UR library)
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
A.E. KNOCH
One of the great Christian Biblical Universal Salvationists of the last century was A.E. Knoch, author of the book ALL IN ALL.
My attitude towards the frequent warnings by believers in eternal torment or annihilation is summed up beautifully by his response.
A critic who believed in eternal torment said, "Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." (End quote) A.E. Knoch
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
Quoted from A SOUTHERN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH HISTORY
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism; I now think entirely differently. It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard. There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard. I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it, and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it." Abraham Lincoln
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said, "The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend."
God always does things "the best way."
ANOTHER QUOTE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T THINK LINCOLN'S ARGUMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN BASED ON THE BIBLE: Mr. Lincoln's deep knowledge of the scriptures could not have come without regularly reading them. As Lincoln scholar Paul Angle noted: "There was one book which left its mark on much of what he wrote. That was the Bible. Upon a familiarity which extended back to his youth he could always depend." Historian Michael Nelson wrote: "Lincoln was consumed by religion as a subject, as well as by the Bible, a book that all of his biographers agree he had read and studied assiduously since his youth.
"Quoted from William J. Wolf, A Study of the Religion of Abraham Lincoln
Awesome
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
AGNOSTIC
I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, trying to treat other people the same way that I would like to treated by them and hope for the best after I die, than to put my trust in a book that teaches that God will allow anyone to choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering. Rodger Tutt
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
Writer Somerset Maugham, after his parents' deaths, spent a few stultifying years in his uncle's vicarage. Later, in his teens at a boarding-school, having lost his belief in the existence of God said: "The whole horrible structure, based not on the love of God, but on the fear of eternal hell, tumbled down like a house of cards." Quote source: The Secret Lives of Somerset Maugham by Selina Hastings
We are so constituted that we believe the most incredible things; and, once they are engraved upon the memory, woe to him who would endeavor to erase them. Goethe
There is a germ of religion in human nature so strong that whenever an order of men can persuade the people by flattery or terror that they have salvation at their disposal, there can be no end to fraud, violence or usurpation.
John Adams
:HeartThrob:
AION – AIONIOS
HOW ETERNITY SLIPPED IN
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 08, 2016, 05:18:00 PM
AION – AIONIOS
HOW ETERNITY SLIPPED IN
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
What a very good and informative article!
This one, posted earlier, is too!!
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
AIONIOS
Although there are at least fifteen translations that translate aion/aionios literally instead of interpretively, the most popular versions are translated interpretively.
Why did God allow the most popular versions of His written word to be interpretively translated instead of literally translated?
In my opinion the reason is the same reason why God allows all other evils to temporarily prevail, and that is because He is eventually going to make it better for everyone that He did so.
Probably, God could not have allowed a better foil of contrast of evil versus good than to let His written word be mistranslated. Against the black background of the theological false doctrines of never ending suffering or annihilation God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that can never fail, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote
"In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).".
Dean Hough
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Oh dear.. I have to come back and read these links..
Quote
going to make it better for everyone that He did so.
Probably, God could not have allowed a better foil of contrast of evil versus good than to let His written word be mistranslated. Against the black background of the theological false doctrines of never ending suffering or annihilation God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that can never fail, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
There seem to be some inaccuracies in some writings you have presented.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
While in 1 Tim 4:10 Paul writes of "...the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers", this is unlikely to include any salvation from the second death, but must presumably refer to the reconciliation which Christ has accomplished by his death for all men, but not the salvation which he is yet to bring about from his life (Rom 5:10). (Paul was not always consistent in his statements and choice of words, one easily seen regards weaponry, the breastplate in Eph 6:14 being righteousness, consistent with Is 59:17, while in 1Th 5:8 he speaks of the breastplate being faith and love.) Additionally, why is he especially the saviour of believers? What is different for the unbelievers? Perhaps that they should not see/experience the 'life' of the kingdom, that they should yet be judged after a first death?
Nothing in the NT outside of Revelation speaks of the 'second' death (nor, for that matter the 'lake' of fire - it seems that nowhere outside of Revelation is it referred to as a lake). So it seems unlikely that Paul would have been including the second (death) in his comment, likely having knowledge of the (lake of) fire, but no mention suggesting he knew of it as a second death.
Salvation is written to be of faith (Eph 2:8, 2 Th 2:13, 2 Ti 3:15, 1 Pet 1:5, 1 Pet 1:9). After the end of (i.e. resurrection from) the first death (again, 1 Cor 15 is unlikely to be speaking of the second, but rather the first death), faith, which is the assurance of things not seen (Heb 11:1), can no longer be as such, as all will have seen, and faith can no longer be in those things which are, after the resurrection, seen (Heb 11 in general).
Paul also speaks in Phil 3:18,19 of many, enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, that end, telos G5056, being a termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be, the last in any succession or series, that by which a thing is finished, its close occurs, its aim or purpose, with the 'close'ing finish being 'destruction', apoleia G684, a destroying, utter destruction, a perishing, ruin, destruction. That same destruction of men is also mentioned in Mat 7:13, Rom 9:22, Phil 1:28, 1 Tim 6:9, Heb 10:39, 2 Pet 2:1, 2 Pet 2:3, 2 Pet 3:7, 2 Pet 3:16.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sooner or later everyone will do the will of the Father and will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Biblically, this is not a generally justifiable statement.
The bible records multiple instances where God's will was not fulfilled, and beyond a point no longer could be.
Some examples are:
1)God spoke his will/purpose that Adam and Eve were not to eat of the forbidden tree, but they did. They cannot un-eat of the tree, God's will was rejected and not fulfilled.
2)God intended for Adam and Eve to experience life without dying, having made available to them the tree of life, but after disobeying, they were removed from the garden and blocked from gaining access to the tree of life, leading to their death, thus His original will that they live forever without death was thwarted and not fulfilled.
3)God desired that the pharisees and lawyers be baptized by John, but Luke 7:30 records "But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John", thus God's purpose for them was not fulfilled.
4)It was the will of the Father, that the Pharisees and Lawyers (among many others) listen to Jesus (Deut 18:15, Jn 5:46, Jn 8:40), but they instead put him to death.
Observe that 'purpose', boule, in Luke 7:30 is reportedly related to boulomai, willing/wishing/counselling in 2 Pet 3:9 regarding 'all' being saved, or reformed, with that 'will' itself being subject to a time frame which is prior to Jesus return (or [second] coming), with that return thereby putting an end to that opportunity to be saved.
Lacking certainty of what 'will' is being indicated by the author, perhaps a 'will' that everyone should enter the kingdom of heaven, or merely a 'will' that somehow relates to or precedes that entry, I cannot assess whether that specific claim might be justifiable - but as just shown, the generalization that seems to be implied, that God's will has to be fullfilled, is false.
Rom 9:19b "...For who resists His will?" is often put forward as supporting the notion that God's will cannot be resisted, but is actually Paul putting forward a question he surmises might be asked by those who were challenging and questioning God - not Paul supporting that notion.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
This last, while perhaps possible, simply isn't supported by the bible, but would have to be beyond what it gives record of.
See below.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal.
If the topic is "exhaustively treated", then there should be mention of a resurrection to life, and a resurrection to judgement (John 5:29), but there is no mention of the resurrection to judgment.
There also should be mention of a second death. There is no biblical mention of second death until revelation, which by any account I've seen was not recorded until after all of Paul's letters were written.
And a mention of the two witnesses who will be killed, and resurrected, before the great tribulation begins (being neither Christ, nor those at his coming, nor those after the 1000 years.)
So Paul in 1 Cor 15 is far from exhaustive, and likely referring to the only death then seemingly known, the first death, and the resurrection from that first death.
The destination of fire was certainly known from Jesus recorded statements. The consideration of it as a second death, and even as a 'lake', apparently not until Revelation.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy).
That last parenthetical statement is inaccurate.
'death', G2288, is apparently one of the holding places for the dead per Rev 20:13 (the sea and hades being others), and is itself apparently to be made new, the new place being the lake of fire (the second death.)
Consider Rev 21:4x "...there will no longer be any death...",
that death being the first death, it also being among the first things that pass away,
and :5x, "...Behold, I am making all things new...",
which apparently even includes a new (i.e. second) death (which is the lake of fire) Rev 21:8,
another holding place,
where the first death, having already given up the dead it held (Rev 20:13),
is to be placed, as indicated earlier in Rev 20:14.
Further, even after the new heaven and new earth are seen, with the new Jerusalem descending upon them (Rev 21:1-2) which is indicated to be the dwelling place of God, among men, Rev 21:3, per Rev 21:4 there is no longer to be the (first) death, with Rev 21:7 a place in that New Jerusalem dwelling to be inherited by those who overcome, while those who do not overcome, but are cowardly, unbelieving, etc. will, Rev 21:8 rather have their part in the lake of fire (the new, second, death, not of the 'first things'), rather than the New Jerusalem.
If we are to think that the second death (lake of fire) is to be abolished (brought to an end), we then have to consider what that would mean for (the first) death, hades, and the devil and his angels, as they are all to be placed within the lake of fire. If it no longer exists, what becomes of them? Would the abolishment of the second death, mean that the first death was no longer at an end as indicated by Rev 21:4x?
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
No.
In 1 Cor 15, resurrection is applied to all who have been, or are to be, restored to life (by the point of the abolishment of death), starting with Christ v20, then those who are Christ's at his coming, v23, then eventually everyone else (from first death).
Looking at more of the passage in 1 Cor 15 (than the v15-v20 he mentions next) starting with v13, it very specifically indicates Christ as not being raised if there is no resurrection.
Christ not being expected to die again, nor have any part in the lake of fire, but being the first fruits of the resurrection, discredits that statement that the term 'resurrection' is applied to those affected by the second death.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
No, not so apparent regarding the lake of fire not being the end of God's plan.
While it does appear that Christ is to make all alive, retrieving all dead from all holding places, with the end of the first death at the end of the 1000 years (Rev 20:5a, and further indicated as accomplished in Rev 20:12,13),
this is not indicative of the final fate/destination of all of them.
That final fate seems to be indicated by Rev 21:7-8, with those who (at that point having) overcome will be inheriting a place in the new Jerusalem, but others apparently not having overcome (per v8), having their place in the lake of fire "which is the second death."
EVIL
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
"All men will be saved. But God isn't trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.
Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace. As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.
God not only 'allows' evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day."
THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
"The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free. Now this word 'destroy' does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect. When Christ took the keys from the prison keeper he, Satan, lost all power and authority. Christ made his office of no effect (Heb. 2:14&15).
While prophets of doom forecast calamity and destruction, the mind of Christ speaks and lights our world with the vision of universal restoration and reconciliation.
Paul told of a great victory where every knee would bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul did not say that only a small number will bow and confess, but he said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. And no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. What a glorious day that will be when every foot steps forth in the river of life up to the ankle, and from the ankle up to the knee. Every knee shall bow!
We are not an accident! We are not a mistake! No one has been overlooked by the Creator. All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.
When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river."
FUNDAMENTALS OR BASIS OF BELIEF – Thomas Griffith
"We will get good out of evil. Our gracious Educator does evolve for us out of corruption, temptation and sin, new purposes, new skill, new triumphs.
Beyond the overruling of intermediate evil into subserviency to a higher good, what has been superinduced as a transition state of things is therefore seen to be necessary only for a time. It will pass away with the functions which it is made to fulfill. It will at last be superseded by the highest good for everyone."
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
A SNIPPET FROM THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
"God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some, evil is never to cease. God is never able, as they see it, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent, whereas the only freedom of man which the scriptures affirm is the freedom of deliverance we find alone in Christ Jesus."
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."
THE STRANGER IN LOWELL – John Greenleaf Whittier
"Through discords of sin and sorrow, pain and wrong, truth rises, a deathless melody whose notes of wailing are hereafter to be changed to those of triumph as they blend with the great harmony of a reconciled universe."
THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
Why I believe that the Bible teaches that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
Dean Hough wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Amen! Amen! To all of the above! :thumbsup:
...I really think the world as it is, and death, likely would only be avoided if our Heavenly Father had never created rational creatures, for I think choice to be an offshoot of thinking ability.. And the way He did it, forming the universe and man and woman not only after the first rebel thought, which occurred in the adversary, but after it had matured into outright revolt and sedition/trickery/deception, was so all in heaven and earth would take this unavoidable journey and lesson all together, at once.
Unavoidable, that is, if there's to be thinking ability..
And I can't help thinking of this- that surely, he is life itself, the life force (and also perfection, hence any choice in thought, word, or deed, no matter how tiny, which differs from what He chooses, results in imperfection, the opposite of life.
But most of all I think of this, that yes suffering has come upon all, even upon some horribly, but He, being life, suffers, lives through, and experiences it all! Why would He put Himself through all that? I suppose because he's not creating robots or an ant farm, but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise. Unbreakable because deeply etched and engraved upon every heart and mind will be the full understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death/nonlife. That one simply cannot wander from Him, for to do so could only ever end in a self destructive wisp of smoke - apocalypse, the unveiling. W/o his rule is to crash and burn. The story of all history, every age, every nation and tribe and the story of each of us. After all, what is said to be the very best teacher? (Besides He and His Spirit.) Experience. After the great 'day' of review/judgment.. Totally brought home to every heart.
Quote from: ps on June 18, 2016, 10:16:45 PM
There seem to be some inaccuracies in some writings you have presented.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
While in 1 Tim 4:10 Paul writes of "...the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers", this is unlikely to include any salvation from the second death, but must presumably refer to the reconciliation which Christ has accomplished by his death for all men, but not the salvation which he is yet to bring about from his life (Rom 5:10). (Paul was not always consistent in his statements and choice of words, one easily seen regards weaponry, the breastplate in Eph 6:14 being righteousness, consistent with Is 59:17, while in 1Th 5:8 he speaks of the breastplate being faith and love.) Additionally, why is he especially the saviour of believers? What is different for the unbelievers? Perhaps that they should not see/experience the 'life' of the kingdom, that they should yet be judged after a first death?
Nothing in the NT outside of Revelation speaks of the 'second' death (nor, for that matter the 'lake' of fire - it seems that nowhere outside of Revelation is it referred to as a lake). So it seems unlikely that Paul would have been including the second (death) in his comment, likely having knowledge of the (lake of) fire, but no mention suggesting he knew of it as a second death.
Salvation is written to be of faith (Eph 2:8, 2 Th 2:13, 2 Ti 3:15, 1 Pet 1:5, 1 Pet 1:9). After the end of (i.e. resurrection from) the first death (again, 1 Cor 15 is unlikely to be speaking of the second, but rather the first death), faith, which is the assurance of things not seen (Heb 11:1), can no longer be as such, as all will have seen, and faith can no longer be in those things which are, after the resurrection, seen (Heb 11 in general).
Paul also speaks in Phil 3:18,19 of many, enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, that end, telos G5056, being a termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be, the last in any succession or series, that by which a thing is finished, its close occurs, its aim or purpose, with the 'close'ing finish being 'destruction', apoleia G684, a destroying, utter destruction, a perishing, ruin, destruction. That same destruction of men is also mentioned in Mat 7:13, Rom 9:22, Phil 1:28, 1 Tim 6:9, Heb 10:39, 2 Pet 2:1, 2 Pet 2:3, 2 Pet 3:7, 2 Pet 3:16.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sooner or later everyone will do the will of the Father and will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Biblically, this is not a generally justifiable statement.
The bible records multiple instances where God's will was not fulfilled, and beyond a point no longer could be.
Some examples are:
1)God spoke his will/purpose that Adam and Eve were not to eat of the forbidden tree, but they did. They cannot un-eat of the tree, God's will was rejected and not fulfilled.
2)God intended for Adam and Eve to experience life without dying, having made available to them the tree of life, but after disobeying, they were removed from the garden and blocked from gaining access to the tree of life, leading to their death, thus His original will that they live forever without death was thwarted and not fulfilled.
3)God desired that the pharisees and lawyers be baptized by John, but Luke 7:30 records "But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John", thus God's purpose for them was not fulfilled.
4)It was the will of the Father, that the Pharisees and Lawyers (among many others) listen to Jesus (Deut 18:15, Jn 5:46, Jn 8:40), but they instead put him to death.
Observe that 'purpose', boule, in Luke 7:30 is reportedly related to boulomai, willing/wishing/counselling in 2 Pet 3:9 regarding 'all' being saved, or reformed, with that 'will' itself being subject to a time frame which is prior to Jesus return (or [second] coming), with that return thereby putting an end to that opportunity to be saved.
Lacking certainty of what 'will' is being indicated by the author, perhaps a 'will' that everyone should enter the kingdom of heaven, or merely a 'will' that somehow relates to or precedes that entry, I cannot assess whether that specific claim might be justifiable - but as just shown, the generalization that seems to be implied, that God's will has to be fullfilled, is false.
Rom 9:19b "...For who resists His will?" is often put forward as supporting the notion that God's will cannot be resisted, but is actually Paul putting forward a question he surmises might be asked by those who were challenging and questioning God - not Paul supporting that notion.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
This last, while perhaps possible, simply isn't supported by the bible, but would have to be beyond what it gives record of.
See below.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal.
If the topic is "exhaustively treated", then there should be mention of a resurrection to life, and a resurrection to judgement (John 5:29), but there is no mention of the resurrection to judgment.
There also should be mention of a second death. There is no biblical mention of second death until revelation, which by any account I've seen was not recorded until after all of Paul's letters were written.
And a mention of the two witnesses who will be killed, and resurrected, before the great tribulation begins (being neither Christ, nor those at his coming, nor those after the 1000 years.)
So Paul in 1 Cor 15 is far from exhaustive, and likely referring to the only death then seemingly known, the first death, and the resurrection from that first death.
The destination of fire was certainly known from Jesus recorded statements. The consideration of it as a second death, and even as a 'lake', apparently not until Revelation.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy).
That last parenthetical statement is inaccurate.
'death', G2288, is apparently one of the holding places for the dead per Rev 20:13 (the sea and hades being others), and is itself apparently to be made new, the new place being the lake of fire (the second death.)
Consider Rev 21:4x "...there will no longer be any death...",
that death being the first death, it also being among the first things that pass away,
and :5x, "...Behold, I am making all things new...",
which apparently even includes a new (i.e. second) death (which is the lake of fire) Rev 21:8,
another holding place,
where the first death, having already given up the dead it held (Rev 20:13),
is to be placed, as indicated earlier in Rev 20:14.
Further, even after the new heaven and new earth are seen, with the new Jerusalem descending upon them (Rev 21:1-2) which is indicated to be the dwelling place of God, among men, Rev 21:3, per Rev 21:4 there is no longer to be the (first) death, with Rev 21:7 a place in that New Jerusalem dwelling to be inherited by those who overcome, while those who do not overcome, but are cowardly, unbelieving, etc. will, Rev 21:8 rather have their part in the lake of fire (the new, second, death, not of the 'first things'), rather than the New Jerusalem.
If we are to think that the second death (lake of fire) is to be abolished (brought to an end), we then have to consider what that would mean for (the first) death, hades, and the devil and his angels, as they are all to be placed within the lake of fire. If it no longer exists, what becomes of them? Would the abolishment of the second death, mean that the first death was no longer at an end as indicated by Rev 21:4x?
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
No.
In 1 Cor 15, resurrection is applied to all who have been, or are to be, restored to life (by the point of the abolishment of death), starting with Christ v20, then those who are Christ's at his coming, v23, then eventually everyone else (from first death).
Looking at more of the passage in 1 Cor 15 (than the v15-v20 he mentions next) starting with v13, it very specifically indicates Christ as not being raised if there is no resurrection.
Christ not being expected to die again, nor have any part in the lake of fire, but being the first fruits of the resurrection, discredits that statement that the term 'resurrection' is applied to those affected by the second death.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 24, 2016, 10:48:09 AM
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
No, not so apparent regarding the lake of fire not being the end of God's plan.
While it does appear that Christ is to make all alive, retrieving all dead from all holding places, with the end of the first death at the end of the 1000 years (Rev 20:5a, and further indicated as accomplished in Rev 20:12,13),
this is not indicative of the final fate/destination of all of them.
That final fate seems to be indicated by Rev 21:7-8, with those who (at that point having) overcome will be inheriting a place in the new Jerusalem, but others apparently not having overcome (per v8), having their place in the lake of fire "which is the second death."
so, according to this view, most of humanity ends up being tormented forever in a lake of fire ?..cursing and hating God forever without end ?..and you can bet the people in there being tortured would hate and curse god...what kind of god would bring that into being when he didn't have to?..when He was perfectly happy and living in love before He caused this great tragedy to come into existence ?..and surely any thinking rational feeling person would regard billions of human beings being tormented forever, as a supreme tragedy..unless one is extremely callous and hard of heart, of course. :sigh:
Then how shall death be destroyed- if the lake of fire, the secnd death, last forever, and how shall God become all in all. How shall all things be gathered into one in Christ, whether things in heaven and earth, and how shall death lose its sting, how shall death be swallowed up by immortality.
You have to bend so many things to believe what you believe ps.
What a shame you cannot take the word of God at face value.
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"
Having read several books against the Bible teaching universal salvation it is my observation that the authors were unable to believe in God's plan for the ages of time as revealed in a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible.
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
The death and resurrection of Jesus guarantees the eventual salvation of everyone.
ELECTION
Eventually everyone will be saved.
Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement.
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " - E.G.Jones
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-in-all.htm
At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the 'potential' savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.
Don Bast
THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
"Love conquers all, for it is the love of God that allows humanity to see its frailty that in the bitter dregs it may choose life. I thank the Lord that the plan of redemption wasn't a stop gap measure but a well thought out plan that in the fullness of time, all will have Christ as their head. Victory in Jesus!
Before creation there was no time. Since creation there has been time. But with the consummation of things and God becoming All in all, time will end, and sin, which is limited by time shall end. Yet, God and creation shall go on.
If God cannot surmount the evil in the world and turn it all into good, then there is a power equal and opposite to Him. But sin isn't eternal. The cross of Calvary isn't a 'hope so' move by God, but rather, a well conceived thought out solution to the problem of sin. There is an end to sin and to the death it causes. All shall be swallowed up into victory. Some, God has planned to accept Him now. Others, like Pharaoh, He hardens their heart. But being a righteous Judge He will show wrath on those who need it to cleanse them of their fallen nature.
The plan of God is such that His grace, that unmerited favor, will cause man and all of creation to be restored The mercy and love of God is to be so revealed that Jesus shall be All in all.
The purpose for the present is to save some. The purpose for the future is to save all. Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Even he who dies in sin shall be saved as by fire. Victorious grace covers a larger redemption than many would consider."
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm#2
"When we understand the glorious truth that our God is both the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, then we realize that no matter how vast the cycle and circuit, the end is secure, for all things return unto Him again. To read only a portion of God's Word, the facts are too few to rightly calculate the CURVE of God's plan. And while HE does, gloriously, illumine a specific verse or sentence to speak to our hearts for that day, we also need the full sweep of the Book to gain an overall view of His purpose, and then understand the tremendous victory which is ours in Christ".
Long milleniums ago Adam was banished from the Paradise of God and its life-giving tree. But God has provided a way by which His banished may return! Some glad morning, when the unfolding plan of God is complete, all who once stood "in Adam" in the Garden will again be gathered together and their eyes will behold with endless joy that heaven blest Eden in which walked Adam, the son of God. But even now there is a remnant, the election of grace, the firstfruits of His redemption WHO IN SPIRIT HAVE ENTERED THOSE ONCE-CLOSED PORTALS AND HAVE PARTAKEN OF THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF LIFE! In the power of the Christ, the last Adam, though the firstfruits of Christ's redemption still move about in a world which is under the curse, where the traces of sin are visible on all hands, these have found their way, by faith, to the bosom of the Father, and are NOW AT HOME AGAIN IN GOD! The mighty transformation that has come and is coming to our lives shall be experienced ultimately by ALL MEN, God's own law of circularity secures it, and none can resist it, praise His glorious name!"
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
Copy and paste the links into your browser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
Information they probably won't have you study in "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" Bible schools. Your teachers will probably declare the following information to be heresy, and they probably won't have you study
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
A recently published book that shows why Gerry believes that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
IMO, the best presentation of UR for the average believer.
Gerry Beauchemin will be at the The Forgotten Gospel Conference
August 5-7, 2016
The Sanctuary Denver
Denver Colorado
Many other prominent UR folks.
Gary is also shown as an attendee.
Wish I could go.
Joe
DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."
RESPONSES
Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.
Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.
Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.
"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.
If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.
I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"
If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"
If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.
My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.
James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished.
http://concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/
See article above on this point also, for the likeness/parallel I
draw between, on the one hand, slavery, and on the other, death.
Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
:thumbsup:
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE - Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/outcome.html
The article by Dr. Hurley is a wonderful compilation of the truths of the salvation of all and the errors in our common bibles. It was one of a number of articles I gave to friends to show the beauty of Gods plan. It is also on the tentmaker web site. :dsunny:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 19, 2016, 03:17:11 AM
Why I believe that the Bible teaches that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
This assertion of William Barclay regarding kolasis is apparently wrong.
(At least in one of his works, he couched the claim tentatively, with 'I think' preceding it, see http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html. It seems that most of the quotes I see choose to quote a definite version from somewhere, rather than the tentative version.)
Consider reading the following which give instances showing William Barclay's claim to be incorrect:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2015/12/but-if-you-look-at-the-original-greek-a-plea-for-caution/
http://moments.nbseminary.com/archives/114-punishment-kolasis-kolazein-%E2%80%93-eternal-or-otherwise-matthew-2546-acts-421-2-peter-29-1-john-418/
It also seems that William Barclay allowed for aion/aionios being appropriately used for eternal in some cases (and elsewhere here I have shown how that is biblically supported in the sense of 'unending', in regards to the 'kingdom' of Matt 25:46, considering Luke 1:31-33), but that position of Barclay's seems to be oft overlooked. (A portion of a post of martincisneros, whatever his history on this site may have been, acknowledges that here http://tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic-support/matthew-2546-3013/msg30989/#msg30989 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic-support/matthew-2546-3013/msg30989/#msg30989).)
ps,
Scripture is interpreted by scripture.
What does this mean?....
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
or this...
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Or this
"If I am lifted up from the earth i will draw all men unto me" John 12:32
Or
Behold I am making all things new! Rev 21:5
You seem to have no willingness or ability to read the scriptures for yourself. You present sources that make simple assertions without the evidence for them or the context of the rest of the scriptures.
William Barcaly is "apparently wrong"? Aionios is plainly a word for an "age" or an "eon". Kolassis is plainly a word that means "pruning". You have to beware reading things to confirm your prejudices, and try reading what the scriptures themselves teach, with an open heart and mind.
We are all very familiar with the arguments for eternal torment and annihilation. You are not familiar with the arguments for the salvation of all because you are not familiar wth the scriptures, and the whole context of the topic.
Our purpose here is not to debate with eternal torment and annihilation believers. We are hear to answer the questions of seekers and present the good news that all will be reconciled, all will be gathered into one in Christ, God will become all in all.
If you are not interested in learning you should go to some debate site, because this is not the place for you to present rehashed eternal torment junk.
LAST CHAPTER
RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all.
The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL GO TO HEAVEN
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I'm 77 years old.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
My wife and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE - Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/outcome.html
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2016, 08:12:12 AM
ps,
Scripture is interpreted by scripture.
...
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
....
Col 1:15-20 should read:
1:14 In whom we have the redemption through the blood of his, [concerning] the forgiveness of the sins;
1:15 who is [an] image of the invisible [Yhwh] God; [who is] [a] prototype of every creature;
1:16 because in him all the [creations] was created, the [creations] in the heavens and [the creations] upon the earth; the visible [creations] and the invisible [creations]: whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principles, whether authorities; all the [creations] hath been created through him (Yhshua), and [with respect] TO Him/him (Yhwh or Yhshua?),
1:17 and he is before all [creations], and all the [creations] in him had set together;
1:18 and he is the head of the body, the Called-out [assembly], who is a principle prototype out of the dead [people], in order that he would become being first in all [creations].
1:19 Because in him [it was] thought well to inhabit the every fullness.
1:20 And through him to reconcile [back] all the [creations] TO himself, having made peace through the blood of the STAKE of him; through him, whether the [creations] upon the earth, whether the [creations] in the heavens.
*I repeat:
V16 ...in him (Not: by him).
V20 ...through him (Not: by him).
YHV Lexicon:
in/on/among (G1722 Dative preposition en; at, in, on, into, among) John 1:1
through (G1223 Genitive preposition dia; proceeding through/across. Figuratively: by means of) John 1:3
E.g. Acts 2:22
Israelites men, hear these the words: Yehshua the Nazarite, a man having been set forth from the God TO you [with] [dynamic] power and wonders and signs, which the God did
through him in a midst of you, as ye yourselves have known;
IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Restitution%20of%20All%20Things/restitutionindex.htm
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 05, 2016, 03:02:12 AM
IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
Awesome! written (originally) in 1910.. Looks like some interesting chapters..!
"Witness Of The Early Church Fathers" - http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/278/mode/2up
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 05, 2016, 02:45:18 PM
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Restitution%20of%20All%20Things/restitutionindex.htm
1867.. I love to read what others have written some time ago!
Seems to me that God opened up understanding in a progressive way through the eons and is culminating this revelation of the gospel of grace and the victorious gospel of Christ since the late 1800's and through the 1900's. We indeed are the beneficiaries of these rich treasures in this end time.
:dsunny:
Quote from: joeteekay on July 05, 2016, 07:03:50 PM
Seems to me that God opened up understanding in a progressive way through the eons and is culminating this revelation of the gospel of grace and the victorious gospel of Christ since the late 1800's and through the 1900's. We indeed are the beneficiaries of these rich treasures in this end time.
:dsunny:
Not to be disagreeable, but I believe the apostles and the early disciples/ecclesia fully understood the gospel we are being restored to in these last days- and proclaimed it with clarity, a full assurance of faith, and the demonstration of the Spirit with power....
After all,
we have received it through
their words :friendstu:
It's awesome the victorious gospel is making a reappearance.. Being restored. And a great calling to be able to share it!
:thumbsup:
I agree with you on that completely EW. My point, although not well expressed, was that since the death of the apostles the glorious truths became corrupted through time. Versions like the Latin Vulgate and the KJV had so many errors that it led to confusion about the plain truth of Holy Scripture. Many today relying on versions based on errors find scripture confusing and contradictory. My main point is that it is only in recent times with all the tools we have for a better understanding such as the Concordant Version have enabled more people to find the glorious truth.
:iagree:
Good words all :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :iagree:
GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE – Adlai Loudy
http://www.secret-evangel.site90.net/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 12, 2016, 08:39:12 AM
GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE – Adlai Loudy
http://www.secret-evangel.site90.net/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
http://www.secret-evangel.site90.net/GodsEonianPurpose18.htm
http://www.secret-evangel.site90.net/GodsEonianPurpose19.htm
Very interesting..
and http://www.secret-evangel.site90.net/GodsEonianPurpose21.htm
I found this very helpful! :thumbsup:
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 13, 2016, 04:03:34 AM
I found this very helpful! :thumbsup:
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 13, 2016, 10:30:49 AM
THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
:dsunny: :thumbsup:
Purpose of evil - "In regard to this subject orthodoxy is hopelessly contradictory and utterly absurd."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
It certainly was no error.. Perfect makes no mistakes. ...It's all in the Genesis account, how evil came about.
Did He know what the adversary would attempt to do and what would come about? Of course He did! :laughing7:
Upcoming UR conference
http://www.theforgottengospel.com/
By Hannah Whitall Smith
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so. Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
__________________
ALL FOR JESUS
THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 17, 2016, 03:57:17 PM
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
I think we of the first resurrection are being prepared and equipped to help those of the 2nd resurrection, for they will rise "still in their sins" and it will not be easy.. history is not a pretty story.. many will have much to face.. some will be terrified, surely.. thinking they will be tormented forever.. as that's likely what they heard, if they heard the gospel/preaching..
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 17, 2016, 03:57:17 PM
THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
...Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
Wow..
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 17, 2016, 03:57:17 PM
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
:cloud9: He is ever so able..
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT CHRISTIANS VERSUS ETERNAL PUNISHMENT MUSLIMS
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too.
And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth
Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
That is why they believe they are doing God's work when they make a project out of killing non-Muslim "infidels" if they refuse to convert to Islam.
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
For anyone who is interested, the following is a very informative link
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hell-scholars-corner/
Amen! And I loved the link.. Especially,
"The scholarship of the Reformation period was just a few steps out of the Dark Ages." - though I've read it many times how the bibles are, oh my gosh, taking 'hell' out.. and supposedly this shows such translations cannot be trusted and should not be read. :faint: (good grief!)
Looks like some great links listed!
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I'm 77 years old.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Thank you Rodgertutt for all which you post and do!! :HeartThrob:
God bless you! :girlheart: :smile:
My pleasure Marie! :HeartThrob:
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
It is true that there are things that God cannot do.
For example, God cannot lie. But He doesn't want to lie.
But He DOES want to save ALL mankind.
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does,
In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6.
See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
Quoted from A SOUTHERN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH HISTORY
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism; I now think entirely differently. It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard. There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard. I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it, and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it." Abraham Lincoln
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said, "The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend."
God always does things "the best way." :-)
ANOTHER QUOTE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T THINK LINCOLN'S ARGUMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN BASED ON THE BIBLE: Mr. Lincoln's deep knowledge of the scriptures could not have come without regularly reading them. As Lincoln scholar Paul Angle noted: "There was one book which left its mark on much of what he wrote. That was the Bible. Upon a familiarity which extended back to his youth he could always depend." Historian Michael Nelson wrote: "Lincoln was consumed by religion as a subject, as well as by the Bible, a book that all of his biographers agree he had read and studied assiduously since his youth."
Quoted from William J. Wolf, A Study of the Religion of Abraham Lincoln
Yes, scripture tells us that not many wise men now are called, but a few are.
1Co_1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
Some famous were called to understand, but few:
Lincoln and others:
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
Billy Graham??
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/billy_graham_universalist.html
:thumbsup:
Having read several books against the Bible teaching universal salvation it is my observation that the authors were unable to believe in God's plan for the ages of time as revealed in a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible.
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on July 26, 2016, 09:01:20 AM
Having read several books against the Bible teaching universal salvation it is my observation that the authors were unable to believe in God's plan for the ages of time as revealed in a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible.
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
:thumbsup:
That's awesome about Abe Lincoln! ..and I always sort of wondered about Billy Graham.. And I totally agree UR is the easiest to see in the Bible and to believe!
:thumbsup:
ANNIHILATION
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):
A writing by Gary Amirault specifically refuting the arguments that seemingly support the idea that the Bible teaches annihilation and showing that the Bible teaches universal salvation instead.
One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
INTRODUCTION
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
Awesome article!! ..especially about "apollumi" (lost, destroyed, thought by et to be death forever beyond hope) "I have come to seek and to save the apollumi, the destroyed." If they are dead and forever beyond hope, why would the Lord be seeking to save them?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
An exposition in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED?
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/salvatio.htm
In A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, John Wesley Hanson records the following words of John Prior Estlin (1747-1817).
"To a belief in the doctrine of the eternity of hell torments, I impute more absurdity, more misery, and more un-Christian conduct, than to all other false opinions put together. The effects of this doctrine, when a person applies it to himself, are gloom and despair, often terminating in mental derangement; when he applies it to others, pride, cruelty, hatred, and all the worst passions of human nature.
It certainly argues a greater degree of benevolence in the Governor of the world, after the punishment of His creatures, to restore them to His favor, than either to preserve them in misery, or to blot them out of existence.
The firm belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration, has afforded much consolation to myself during a large portion of my life; has rendered advanced years placid and serene, and enables me to contemplate death itself, notwithstanding its gloomy appearance, as one of the most essential blessings of the whole plan of Providence.
I would as a friend, advise everyone to take this subject into his most serious consideration. I would wish him to experience during the remainder of his life, all the happiness which results from the full persuasion of this delightful doctrine. I pray to God that others may experience that perpetual sunshine of the mind, that joy in the divine administration, that serenity through life, and that cheering prospect in the hour of death, which the belief in the doctrine of final universal restoration does so manifestly inspire."
AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
"By examining the texts of the Greek manuscripts we find the word AIONIOS or AGE LASTING in place of the word eternal of the King James version. AIONIOS the adjective modifies its noun AION or AGE and means lasting during the AGE, or AGE-LASTING.
For that meticulous student of the Word of God that was penned by the inspired writers, I am including this concordance of the Greek noun AION and its adjective AIONIOS for your reference in your studies of the mistranslations of the King James version versus the text of the Greek manuscripts."
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: great link.. thanks
THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE & GARY AMIRAULT
"Christian leaders have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is 'the inerrant' translation of the so-called original texts. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years, and there have been thousands of corrections!
This world need to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Read the prophets and you will not find a place of eternal torment for the wicked. If the Creator loved us and created such a horrible place, He would surely have plastered the warning everywhere. The KJV has the phrase 'everlasting punishment' only once. Yet, when looking at these word in the Greek, even these two references turn out to be 'age-during correction.' Again we ask, if eternal torment be the horrible fate of most of mankind, why such a little warning?
The Scriptures tell us the mind of man cannot conceive the height, length, depth, and width of our Father's love for His creation. His ways are much higher than our in all areas, including His justice, love, and wisdom. He wounds, but like a doctor, to bring about healing. He says 'Vengeance is Mine' knowing only He can return good for evil, an innocent life for a guilty one. He overcomes His enemies with good and tells you to do the same. His love never fails. Believe it. It will never fail anyone, including you. You can now enter into your rest. 'For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth, of things in the heavens (Col. 1:20).
THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT CHRISTIANS VERSUS ETERNAL PUNISHMENT MUSLIMS
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too.
And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth
Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
That is why they believe they are doing God's work when they make a project out of killing non-Muslim "infidels" if they refuse to convert to Islam.
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
For anyone who is interested, the following is a very informative link
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hell-scholars-corner/
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I'm 77 years old.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
It is true that there are things that God cannot do.
For example, God cannot lie. But He doesn't want to lie.
But He DOES want to save ALL mankind.
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does, In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6. See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT
My wife Helen and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
Quoted from A SOUTHERN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH HISTORY
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism; I now think entirely differently. It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard. There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard. I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it, and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it." Abraham Lincoln
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said, "The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend."
God always does things "the best way." :-)
ANOTHER QUOTE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T THINK LINCOLN'S ARGUMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN BASED ON THE BIBLE: Mr. Lincoln's deep knowledge of the scriptures could not have come without regularly reading them. As Lincoln scholar Paul Angle noted: "There was one book which left its mark on much of what he wrote. That was the Bible. Upon a familiarity which extended back to his youth he could always depend." Historian Michael Nelson wrote: "Lincoln was consumed by religion as a subject, as well as by the Bible, a book that all of his biographers agree he had read and studied assiduously since his youth.
"Quoted from William J. Wolf, A Study of the Religion of Abraham Lincoln
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
A recently published book that shows why Gerry believes that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 28, 2016, 09:07:05 AM
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
A recently published book that shows why Gerry believes that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
good one...keep up the good work, Roger ! :iagree: :thumbsup:
ANNIHILATION
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation):
A writing by Gary Amirault specifically refuting the arguments that seemingly support the idea that the Bible teaches annihilation and showing that the Bible teaches universal salvation instead.
One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
INTRODUCTION
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
An exposition in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED?
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/salvatio.htm
Hello,
There are a growing number of people who are seeing the truth about the salvation of all. I believe much of that is due to the authors and prominent proponents of UR. However much credit has to be given to Knoch and Gelesnoff and their magazine "Unsearchable Riches" written as well as their Concordant Literal Version in the first half of the twentieth century. I have seen many recent authors of UR use their material, sometimes not giving credit to the source. :2c:
http://concordant.org/expositions/
Indeed. The expositions section of the concordant.org web site is a nice condensed compilation of UR truths from the Unsearchable Riches magazines.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Jude bears wittness to Enoch regarding just what is done away with at the 'Breath of His coming/consumation" it is not men.....but
false prophets/satan's messengers..that slipped into the church unawares...that turn the LOVE FEAST into something else.....
and takes captive 'silly women/churches/foolish virgins"..laden with sins/errors..just escaping..and through doctrines of demons take
them captive again through condemnation/error.........making them guilty of adultery with the Kings of the earth[prince of this world]
instead of the pure spirit of their betrothed...that laid down His life to present unto Himself His bride free of spots/blemishes. These
spots/blemishes in the Love feast...are consumed with the 'Breath of His coming" at the consumation He gather's the tares for
burning...and gather's out all things that cause 'offense" Judgement begins in the house of the Lord...and the lying spirits that have
served as 'strangers' shepherding His flock...will be consumed...that no-one stumble or offend. these false teachers/lying spirits
having done just as satan entering Judas...the putting to death the body of Christ/testimony in the earth[two wittness'es]
lying spirits rejoice and give 'gifts in men" to one another......calling many to preach the lying doctrine...many called/by
denominations to spread this lying doctrine...hirelings like Issachar...but He even redeems these[ Isaac har[lot] chuches for
the Lord has use of them[rode into Jerusalem on an asse's colt to be put to death]
thus many called but few actually chosen by God........it is always the way of satan/resister/adversary..to raise up many false prophets
against a true prophet God may call.
Men are sheep..His hair is white like wool..because He is Father of the sheep...no sheep/man goes into the LOF...but goats....
it is prepared for satan and his angels/spirits..NOT MAN........the revelation of Christ plainly shows this...this is a 'spot' in Christ's
Love feast. Christ is the spotless Lamb...and presents all mankind spotless unto Himself[free of accusation/granted to be clothed
in clean white linen.} If man's own conscience condemn him...God is greater...and fully capable to answer the request for a
clean conscience. My people shall not be ashamed...and He will answer this also.
"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote)
Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL GO TO HEAVEN
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 05, 2016, 09:30:26 AM
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
yes, if God wanted to state that the rising smoke was definitely 'eternal' (in Rev) or that the 'chastizement ' was 'eternal' in Mt 25, He would have used a Greek word that definitely and unambiguously means 'eternal'...NOT a word like 'aionas' or 'aionios' that does not, in and of itself, mean 'eternal'...surely God, the creator of the universe who knows all things, surely He knows the Greek language and is conversant with it !.The KJV 'hellators' are mostly Biblical literalists and they believe every word is inspired so they should take the Bible word 'aionios' literally and KNOW that it does not mean 'eternal' in and of itself and further KNOW that in such an important matter as our eternal destiny God, who inspired the Bible, would have chosen a word like 'aidios' that DOES in and of itself mean 'eternal'.I mean it's all common- sense...isn't it ?
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
'This is life eternal' should be 'the life of the ages,' i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The 'eternal covenant' is the 'covenant of the ages,' the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The 'eternal purpose' is really the purpose of 'the ages,' i.e. developed and worked out in 'the ages.'
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ's work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages 'cometh the end' when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 05, 2016, 02:46:47 PM
A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
ah ha !...well that should settle it...not to the willfully blind of course...there's none so blind as those that will not see.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
Quoted from A SOUTHERN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH HISTORY
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism; I now think entirely differently. It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard. There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard. I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it, and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it." Abraham Lincoln
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said, "The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend."
God always does things "the best way."
ANOTHER QUOTE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T THINK LINCOLN'S ARGUMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN BASED ON THE BIBLE: Mr. Lincoln's deep knowledge of the scriptures could not have come without regularly reading them. As Lincoln scholar Paul Angle noted: "There was one book which left its mark on much of what he wrote. That was the Bible. Upon a familiarity which extended back to his youth he could always depend." Historian Michael Nelson wrote: "Lincoln was consumed by religion as a subject, as well as by the Bible, a book that all of his biographers agree he had read and studied assiduously since his youth.
"Quoted from William J. Wolf, A Study of the Religion of Abraham Lincoln
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
Copy and paste the links into your browser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
WHAT IF WE ARE WRONG
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Appendix5.html
SIX WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
WHAT JESUS REALLY TAUGHT ABOUT "HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
Does traditional Christianity cause insanity? Many seem to think so. This video is the story a pastor and his daughter of their journey from the traditional turn or burn gospel to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like it on Facebook and please send links to your family and friends. Gary Amirault
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnZRms3XZE
Child Sacrifice in Christianity? Yep!! Watch:
Christian Molech Worship by Tentmaker Ministries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuhBdWbJXQ
:mshock: :faint: (crazy! imagine telling kids that! geesh!)
CONSEQUENSES OF TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF "ETERNAL HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
Hell's fruit is a very good article.. (And I'm sure the other one is too.) The thing I most notice is people's hatred and hostility toward God and I've heard such ones list 'hell' as top of the list in why they despise God who they don't believe in (and whom we know "is love").
Oh if only Christians would use the thinking ability/logic we are endowed with. It's amazing and actually very shocking how strongly held this blasphemous belief is.
Quote from: marie glen on October 02, 2016, 03:38:37 AM
Hell's fruit is a very good article.. (And I'm sure the other one is too.) The thing I most notice is people's hatred and hostility toward God and I've heard such ones list 'hell' as top of the list in why they despise God who they don't believe in (and whom we know "is love").
Oh if only Christians would use the thinking ability/logic we are endowed with. It's amazing and actually very shocking how strongly held this blasphemous belief is.
:iagree:
A.E. KNOCH
One of the great Christian Biblical Universal Salvationists of the last century was A.E. Knoch, author of the book ALL IN ALL.
My attitude towards the frequent warnings by believers in eternal torment or annihilation is summed up beautifully by his response.
A critic who believed in eternal torment said, "Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." (End quote) A.E. Knoch
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I second that Micah
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Granted there are things God cannot do.
For instance, God cannot lie; but He doesn't want to lie.
However, He DOES want to save ALL mankind.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does,
In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6.
See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and
since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just
that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
Tracing Universalist Thought Through Church History
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
Thanks so much Rodger, for your continuing faithfulness to present these awesome resources!
Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2016, 11:21:46 AM
Thanks so much Rodger, for your continuing faithfulness to present these awesome resources!
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
I am 78 years old.
My inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
That is why writings like the following are such a great help to me!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
More good writings on the same subject by the same author.
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/
RESPONSES TO SUPPOSED SCRIPTURE ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
"Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment Shown to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration, showing that Christian universalism, or ultimate reconciliation is the true Biblical doctrine."
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
RESPONSES TO PHILISOPHICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn't hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son's death and resurrection, through the power in the blood that He shed for us on His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That's the God that URs see in the Bible. And that's the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
:dsunny:
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 07, 2016, 03:09:54 PM
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn't hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son's death and resurrection, through the power in the blood that He shed for us on His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That's the God that URs see in the Bible. And that's the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
:hithere: :Gclap: Amen!!
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 06, 2016, 11:21:13 AM
RESPONSES TO SUPPOSED SCRIPTURE ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
"Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment Shown to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration, showing that Christian universalism, or ultimate reconciliation is the true Biblical doctrine."
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
RESPONSES TO PHILISOPHICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about "eternal hell" nearly always gets bogged down with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY – G.T. Stevenson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/
Also see THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH ---
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I'm 78 years old
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 78 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. Information they probably won't have you study in "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" Bible schools. Your teachers will probably declare the following information to be heresy, and they probably won't have you study
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Restitution%20of%20All%20Things/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE - Thomas Kissinger
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/christian-universalism-forum/10-reasons-not-to-believe-in-eternal-torment/
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
24. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
25. GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE – Adlai Loudy
http://www.secret-evangel.site90.net/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm
26. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
27. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE - Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/outcome.html
TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Amen! Lots of great reading !! No Christian Universalist (UR) believer need think they are alone!!
The longer we know the truth, the more and more we see it in His Word, and the more and more obviously illogical, ridiculous and horrific the whole myth of eternal torment (or annihilation) is.
Universal Redemption is the only gospel which makes sense. Other theories find us with theories as though God made some sort of mistake.. or He was taken by surprise by something.. Which both scenarios are totally ridiculous! He can onLy be perfect. Perfect makes no mistakes. And can lose nothing. The 'end' result of all this (history, etc) can onLy be the best one possible!
Anything less.. or a doctrine of anything less declares He is not perfect, or is not all Powerful. How can anyone seriously believe either of those!
Bless you, brother Rodger Tutt! for all you do!!
MY PLEASURE MARIE :HeartThrob:
GOATS
Here is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful. It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :dsunny:
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid. :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Amen! The heart of stone.. so hard.. so cold..
Compared to the Father's heart of love.
And logic!The logic of love.
One day all will know Him!
I read about Tertullion before, and then I forgot! I'm slowly learning about the church fathers.. :dsunny: :banana:
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure. If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Ah, so true. God is the exact opposite, of a failure! :-)
By William Barclay (well known Bible expositor)
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God."
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]
The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm
:dsunny: :cloud9:
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 13, 2016, 01:37:16 PM
The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm
Wow! A great resource!! :thumbsup: :banana:
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 30, 2016, 09:31:46 AM
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure. If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
:thumbsup: This is awesome!
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 30, 2016, 09:31:46 AM
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
..these verses look veRy interesting/informative! Saving the link to look them up and read later..! :ty:
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Amen, great article!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote
See also Ro. 5:18, 19
Romans 5:18-19 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;
19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.Romans 5:18-19 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)18 Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.
19 For just as by one man's disobedience (failing to hear, heedlessness, and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man's obedience the many will be constituted righteous (made acceptable to God, brought into right standing with Him).Romans 5:18-19 King James Version (KJV)18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.Romans 5:18-19 New King James Version (NKJV)18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.Romans 5:18-19 Good News Translation (GNT)18 (A)So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life. 19 And just as all people were made sinners as the result of the disobedience of one man, in the same way they will all be put right with God as the result of the obedience of the one man.I really don't know how it's missed...
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 27, 2017, 06:53:57 AM
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Sooner or later everyone will go to heaven.
A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED
Until the time of Augustine most Christians believed in the salvation of everyone.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
Response to Joseph Prince
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJkBMNlvmZ0
Also see http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Allinadam.html
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
I am 78 years old.
My inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
That is why writings like the following are such a great help to me!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
More good writings on the same subject by the same author.
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure. If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
If you have been devastated by spiritual abuse this online book is for you.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 14, 2017, 02:23:52 AM
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Wow!! How very well said that is!
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 07, 2017, 05:01:02 AM
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/
Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections
Looks VERY good! I have saved it in my favs to read more of it over time.. thanks!
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 16, 2017, 07:02:43 AM
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: going to study this one..
If you have been devastated by spiritual abuse this online book is for you.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
By Hannah Whitall Smith
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so. Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
__________________
ALL FOR JESUS
I love her testimony,TY for sharing it Roger.
My pleasure Sheila :-)
By William Barclay (well known Bible expositor)
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end everyone will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God."
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]
The writings of several dozens of other "convinced universalists."
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm
SIX WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER?
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
WHAT JESUS REALLY TAUGHT ABOUT "HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
QuoteARMINIANISM BELIEF VERSUS CALVINISM BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
Amen! Man oh man! Universal Salvation makes SO much more sense! With the others being so VERY lacking in logic, and Love, let alone totally missing all the "all" verses.. and ignoring/contradicting how He shall make all things new. And there shall be no more pain nor sorrow and suffering.
Quote
William Barkley
Thank you! For I will be copy n pasting that to share elsewhere! :banana:
JOSEPH PRINCE
Response to Joseph Prince who claims to have "dismantled" universal salvation in sixty seconds.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Allinadam.html
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
Copy and paste the links into your browser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
A recently published book that shows why Gerry believes that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I'm 78 years old.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.
I found this link helpful.
http://concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/the-blasphemy-of-the-spirit/
The correct literal translation:
Mk 3: 28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin- (Concordant Literal Translation)
A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED
Until the time of Augustine most Christians believed in the salvation of everyone.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive. ." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Response to Joseph Prince
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJkBMNlvmZ0
Also see http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Allinadam.html
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
good one..keep up the good work, Rodger !...keep spreading the Good News ! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ARE NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larsen
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas.
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?" http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
ANNIHILATON
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2.
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation). 3. The salvation of everyone.
A writing by Gary Amirault specifically refuting the arguments that seemingly support the idea that the Bible teaches annihilation and showing that the Bible teaches universal salvation instead.
One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
INTRODUCTION: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
Another exposition in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED?
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/salvatio.htm
ANNIHILATION
This false doctrine is taught by the JWs' and many Churches of God.
I spent many years (too many) in the Worldwide Church of God where ANNIHILATION was taught.
It was deemed to be a more "Christian" teaching of a god who was more merciful than the one who send bad people to eternal damnation in hell fire. FALSE. These doctrines paint God as a failure, which He is emphatically not. Ah, but more people would see and understand the glorious gospel. :sigh:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTE
Quoted from A SOUTHERN UNIVERSALIST CHURCH HISTORY
"I used to think that it took the smartest kind of man to preach and defend Universalism; I now think entirely differently. It is the easiest faith to preach that I have ever heard. There is more proof in its favor than in any other doctrine I have ever heard. I have a suit in court here tomorrow and if I had as much proof in its favor as there is in Universalism, I would go home, and leave my student to take charge of it, and I should feel perfectly certain that he would gain it." Abraham Lincoln
According to Google quotes Abraham Lincoln also said, "The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend."
God always does things "the best way." :-)
ANOTHER QUOTE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T THINK LINCOLN'S ARGUMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN BASED ON THE BIBLE:
"Mr. Lincoln's deep knowledge of the scriptures could not have come without regularly reading them." As Lincoln scholar Paul Angle noted: "There was one book which left its mark on much of what he wrote. That was the Bible. Upon a familiarity which extended back to his youth he could always depend." Historian Michael Nelson wrote: "Lincoln was consumed by religion as a subject, as well as by the Bible, a book that all of his biographers agree he had read and studied assiduously since his youth.
"Quoted from William J. Wolf, A Study of the Religion of Abraham Lincoln
Thank you! I have shamelessly copied this and am running right over to facebook to post it! ..so my friends can read it! :gsmile: :banana:
GOD WILL NOT LET ANYONE SUFFER FOREVER
Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
Matthew 25:46
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
Dean Hough wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
THE REAL GOSPEL (GOOD NEWS) – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
It is true that there are things that God cannot do.
For example, God cannot lie. But He doesn't want to lie.
But He DOES want to save ALL mankind.
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does, In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6. See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
THE FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke
"And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures. The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb."
Wikipedia says
"John Wesley was so fond of The Fool of Quality, in which Brooke declares his belief in universal salvation that he sought to have a copy of it given out to all new Methodist churches."
"SECOND CHANCE"
It is true that God doesn't give anyone a second chance after they die.
But it is also true that God doesn't even give anyone a first chance while they are still alive. God doesn't save anyone by chance. But He will eventually save everyone on purpose.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus, our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
We are saved when God wants us to be, no thanks to ourselves at all.
SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS DEBARRED
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
Repentance will occur when God lays hold on the sinner by His saving grace.
"Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.
We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains." - Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
A.E. KNOCH
One of the great Christian Biblical Universal Salvationists of the last century was A.E. Knoch, author of the book ALL IN ALL.
My attitude towards the frequent warnings by believers in eternal torment or annihilation is summed up beautifully by his response.
A critic who believed in eternal torment said, "Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." (End quote) A.E. Knoch
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT CHRISTIANS VERSUS ETERNAL PUNISHMENT MUSLIMS
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too.
And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth
Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
That is why they believe they are doing God's work when they make a project out of killing non-Muslim "infidels" if they refuse to convert to Islam.
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
For anyone who is interested, the following is a very informative link
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hell-scholars-corner/
Excellent post and totally agree
:thumbsup: :iagree:
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I'm 78 years old.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
Does Scripture Teach Universal Salvation?
Yes it does.
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm
THE LAST CHAPTER IN THE BIBLE
RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all.
The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
RAYMOND VAN DYKE
Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20:21-22:
In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
• No more rule
• No more authority
• No more power
• No more enemies
• No more reigning
• All subjected
• No more death, death destroyed.
• All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:
• Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
• Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
• Authority (21:24,25)
• Power (21:24,25; 22:2
• Kings (21:24-26)
• Saints reign (22:5)
• Second death still exists (21:5)
• The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote
Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20:21, 22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
I am 78 years old.
My inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
That is why writings like the following are such a great help to me!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
More good writings on the same subject by the same author.
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
Christ is the light of the world - we can see him in the world. The light of the world greets everyone of us equally. When Christ is the light of the world, panentheism is true that sees God in all things and God is all in all. It's already true and the Heavens shine such enlightenment. There is no damnation, that would be a staining of eternity with suffering. Godfather does not judge, Godson does not judge, God the Holy Spirit does not judge. When no one judges and when the Law (the books) are removed, we live in grace and freedom.
AGNOSTIC
I would rather live out my life as an agnostic, trying to treat other people the same way that I would like to treated by them and hope for the best after I die, than to put my trust in a book that teaches that God will allow anyone to choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering. Rodger Tutt
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
Writer Somerset Maugham, after his parents' deaths, spent a few stultifying years in his uncle's vicarage. Later, in his teens at a boarding-school, having lost his belief in the existence of God said: "The whole horrible structure, based not on the love of God, but on the fear of eternal hell, tumbled down like a house of cards." Quote source: The Secret Lives of Somerset Maugham by Selina Hastings
We are so constituted that we believe the most incredible things; and, once they are engraved upon the memory, woe to him who would endeavor to erase them. Goethe
There is a germ of religion in human nature so strong that whenever an order of men can persuade the people by flattery or terror that they have salvation at their disposal, there can be no end to fraud, violence or usurpation. John Adams
AION – AIONIOS
HOW ETERNITY SLIPPED IN
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God's plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words ("ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world.") to translate this one word.
And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as "ages."
Talk about confusion compounded!
Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God's truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!
Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God's glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.
- Gerry Beauchemin
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)
...bump
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
"In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).".
Dean Hough
Kenneth Larsen -
2 Thes. 1: 7 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, 8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ 9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength 10 whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day.
(Concordant Literal Version)
To me, this clearly refers to the Second Coming, and it clearly refers to eonian extermination, not eternal. We know the vessels of indignation will be judged at the Great White throne, so they won't cease to exist 1,000 yrs earlier. In Jude 7 we read that Sodom experienced eonian fire, which no longer burns.
1 Corinthians 2:7 (CLV)
but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory,
Ephesians 3:11 (CLV)
in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord;
Colossians 1:26 (CLV)
the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations, yet now was made manifest to His saints,
Hebrews 1:2 (CLV)
in the last of these days speaks to us in a Son, Whom He appoints enjoyer of the allotment of all, through Whom He also makes the eons;
Ephesians 1:21 (CLV)
up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:
1 Corinthians 10:11 (CLV)
Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained.
Hebrews 9:26 (CLV)
since then He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest.
These last two verses are somewhat "symbolic" if that's the correct word, but they do demonstrate that the eons end; they are limited periods of time, not endless time.
After the present eon, there are two more, the eons of the eons, before God completes His plan. (end quote)
Also, in 2 Thess 1:7, the "olethron aionion" -destruction, or ruination to be meted "out of" the presence of the Lord, is the same word Paul used concerning a person who should be delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the "spirit might be saved on the Day of the Lord." 1 Cor 5:5
So even without the adjective "aionion"- "olethron" does not always signify irreversible, or eternal, destruction.
As a fact, in 1 Cor 5:5 Paul speaks of the concept most biblical universalists believe- that all judgment is enacted "so that the spirit might be saved in the Day of the Lord."
Thanks eaglesway :thumbsup:
While believers are enjoying life eonian, unbelievers will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
The uniform translation of aion and its adjective form aionios solves many inconsistencies in Scripture study. Jesus came to give life eonian, a quality of relationship with the Father through Himself, a life that is only the earnest of much more to come when we put on immortality (1Cor. 15:53-57).
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
SEE
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
"Some say that if it can be proved that the punishment of the wicked will have an end, the same argument will prove that the life of the righteous will also end. But this is too much to take for granted on such a premise. Aionios does not of itself indicate either the limited or unlimited duration of anything, but its duration in each case depends on the nature of that to which it is applied.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
'This is life eternal' should be 'the life of the ages,' i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The 'eternal covenant' is the 'covenant of the ages,' the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The 'eternal purpose' is really the purpose of 'the ages,' i.e. developed and worked out in 'the ages.'
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ's work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages 'cometh the end' when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
AIONIOS
Although there are at least fifteen translations that translate aion/aionios literally instead of interpretively, the most popular versions are translated interpretively.
Why did God allow the most popular versions of His written word to be interpretively translated instead of literally translated?
In my opinion the reason is the same reason why God allows all other evils to temporarily prevail, and that is because He is eventually going to make it better for everyone that He did so.
Probably, God could not have allowed a better foil of contrast of evil versus good than to let His written word be mistranslated. Against the black background of the theological false doctrines of never ending suffering or annihilation God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that can never fail, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote
"In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).".
Dean Hough
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/
Introduction:
The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ's cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God's purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). "In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated "forever" and "everlasting" and "never" are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God's grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28).
"ALL THINGS" – Just a thought
All things work together for good "TO" those who love God.
Notice that it doesn't say all things work together for good "for" those who love God.
In other words it is those who love the real God (not a hideous caricature of God) who can see that all things eventually work together for good for everyone.
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
ALL
A snippet from The Inescapable Love of God, Pages 59, 60, by Thomas Talbott:
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32).
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15:22).
In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first "all" seems to determine the scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserts in Romans 5:18 that Christ's one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all, he evidently has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation; when he insists in Romans 11:32 that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in, disobedience; and finally, when he asserts in I Corinthians 15:22 that "all shall be made alive" in Christ, he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam. The grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it only if you are prepared to reject what is right before your eyes."
Does "All" mean "All"?
http://hopebeyondhell.org/
ANATHEMA
http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/condemned.htm
Regarding the word "anathema," I repeat NO other English translation had the nerve to put "eternally" into these phrases in Galatians. Why? Because there is no word in these two sentences that remotely refers to eternity. The NIV translators simply took the liberty of injecting their own beliefs in eternal damnation into this passage without a shred of support from the Greek.
Does the Aramaic word "anathema" carry behind it the idea of people being endlessly tortured and separated from God? In Acts 23:14 a group of Jews put themselves under a curse; they would eat no food until they killed Paul. Do you really think these men, asked to be eternally tortured and estranged from God forever if they failed to kill Paul? Hardly! When Paul wished that he himself was accursed for the sake of his kinsmen after the flesh, do you really think he would allow himself to burn in a Hell forever if it would save his kinsmen? That's ridiculous. Paul taught no such thing. The apostle to the nations, never used any of the words some translations translated Hell.
(Since the writing of this article, it has been pointed out to me, the Amplified Bible has also chosen to put "doomed to eternal punishment" in Galatians 1:8. I repeat, in the Greek text behind this verse there is no word that means "eternal" in this verse. It is added by the translators of these two Bible translations.)
THE MYSTERY OF GOD – Gerard Winstanley
"Christ Jesus will deliver all mankind out of bondage. This I see to be a truth by testimony of Scripture, as God is pleased to teach me. But this mystery of God is not to be done all at once, but in several dispensations, some whereof are past, some are in being, and some are yet to come. The whole creation of mankind, which is God's work, shall be delivered from corruption, bondage, death, and pain. Mankind shall be by Christ reconciled to his Maker and be made one in spirit with Him; i.e. the curse shall be removed, and the power of it killed and consumed.
Truly this is according to the current of the whole Scriptures, that everyone shall be made of one heart and one spirit, i.e. that all shall be brought to obey the Father, walk humbly before Him, and live in peace and love in Him. This is the doctrine of Christ and the gospel. This is glad tidings to hear of. When you are made to enjoy this doctrine as yours, then you shall know what it is to know the Son, and what it is to be set free by the Son."
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means 'pruning' and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing."
A Word to the Elect
ANNE BRONTE
You may rejoice to think yourselves secure;
You may be grateful for the gift divine --
That grace unsought, which made your black hearts pure,
And fits your earth-born souls in Heaven to shine.
But, is it sweet to look around, and view
Thousands excluded from that happiness,
Which they deserved, at least, as much as you, --
Their faults not greater, nor their virtues less?
And, wherefore should you love your God the more,
Because to you alone his smiles are given;
Because he chose to pass the many o'er,
And only bring the favoured few to Heaven?
And, wherefore should your hearts more grateful prove,
Because for ALL the Saviour did not die?
Is yours the God of justice and of love
And are your bosoms warm with charity?
Say, does your heart expand to all mankind?
And, would you ever to your neighbour do --
The weak, the strong, the enlightened, and the blind -
As you would have your neighbour do to you?
And, when you, looking on your fellow-men,
Behold them doomed to endless misery,
How can you talk of joy and rapture then? --
May God withhold such cruel joy from me!
That none deserve eternal bliss I know;
Unmerited the grace in mercy given:
But, none shall sink to everlasting woe,
That have not well deserved the wrath of Heaven.
And, Oh! there lives within my heart
A hope, long nursed by me;
(And, should its cheering ray depart,
How dark my soul would be!)
That as in Adam all have died,
In Christ shall all men live;
And ever round his throne abide,
Eternal praise to give.
That even the wicked shall at last
Be fitted for the skies;
And, when their dreadful doom is past,
To life and light arise.
I ask not, how remote the day,
Nor what the sinner's woe,
Before their dross is purged away;
Enough for me, to know
That when the cup of wrath is drained,
The metal purified,
They'll cling to what they once disdained,
And live by Him that died.
Quote from: rodgertutt on May 31, 2017, 10:27:05 AM
Probably, God could not have allowed a better foil of contrast of evil versus good than to let His written word be mistranslated. Against the black background of the theological false doctrines of never ending suffering or annihilation God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that can never fail, and His grace that cannot be defeate
As I read these words, I could not help but get a picture of the cross in my head.
Just like those who put Christ to death on the cross, are those who mistranslate the written word ..... just like they took the life out of the physical Christ so do those who take the life out of the written word, replacing it with fear and death or a combination of both which is the "fear of death".
Christ was misinterpreted in His physical life and made to be death by taking on the sin of mankind, and so has His written word taken upon itself the sin of mankind ..... for what is sin? Is it not to miss the mark? and is it not missing the mark to misinterpret?
To see the misinterpretations of the written word through translation errors is again putting to death that which brings life. Each misinterpretation of the written word is the culmination of the words "Then if any man shall say onto you, Lo, here is Christ or there, believe it not (Matthew 24:23).
The true word that is of God is written in the hearts and minds, and when THAT word comes to life in you, so is the resurrection of our blessed Lord and Savior in us.
Thanks jugghead
ANNIHILATON
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2.
Eternal Death (Conditional Immortality, Annihilation). 3. The salvation of everyone.
A writing by Gary Amirault specifically refuting the arguments that seemingly support the idea that the Bible teaches annihilation and showing that the Bible teaches universal salvation instead.
One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
INTRODUCTION: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
:thumbsup: Amen, amen! Simplicity itself! Which one - 1,2, or 3, actually glorifies God!? And do the others actually make Him out to be rather impotent? And im-Perfect/missing the mark? Not LORD, not "Almighty". :doh: As if!!
:thumbsup:
Thanks marie
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello
"As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God 'Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, 'yet each in his own class' (1Cor. 15:23)."
When clouds of confusion gather regarding God's plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God's word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be 'ALL in all,' to all, 'later.'"
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
I believe that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.
I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 78 years old now.
People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/
AMEN! AMEN! Absolutely! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Every seeming reference to less than Universal Salvation / Reconciliation / Redemption / Repentance.. is actually quite easily disproven.. And LOGIC! :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
A thousand amens! :gsmile: It seems to me the common thought of the belief in an imperfect outcome, is the belief that mankind was somehow stolen from God.. Things somehow fell out of His control, and oh dear He can only manage to save so many.. or is only interested in saving a few..
But really, thinking soberly, how could we know and experience perfect joy.. peace, or happiness and break forth into praise, singing and even dance (Acts 2) without having ever known the other side of the coin? The other possibility, imperfection.. How? Without being made aware of all its terrible possibilities, consequences and potentials?
Another great post Roger!! :thumbsup: [Thank you!]
:-)
Augustine and Matthew 25:46
Augustine gave a couple of reasons why he believed it was in vain that some, indeed very many, in his day, believed there was no eternal punishment:
"It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture–but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. " 'God will not forget,' " they say, " 'to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy.' " This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm. But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy," those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, " 'Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment.' " Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: " 'But the righteous into life eternal.' "
(end quote)
It may be that many of the early believers in Augustine's day did "deplore the notion of eternal punishment" by yielding to "human feelings" and reliance upon God's mercy. But, was Augustine correct to quote Matthew 25:46 to support the notion of "eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery''? I say No, he was not.
He is saying that if punishment is temporary then it logically follows that the life for the righteous is temporary as well. But is Matthew 25:31-46 really saying this is about the fate of "damned" vs. the righteous for all eternity? No! This judgment takes place when Christ comes back and sets up His 1000 year kingdom (see also Revelation 20). When Christ comes back (Matt.25:31) He will call the nations to this judgment. They will be judged as to how Christ's brethren were treated. Having faith in Christ or lack thereof is not what they are being judged for. Christ never calls the sheep nations His brothers but He does tell them that they treated His brethren correctly.
Secondly, the "kolasin aionion" or "chastening eonian" which the goat nations must endure is equal in length to the life (zoe aionion/life eonian) in the kingdom which the sheep nations enjoy. When the 1000 year eon ends, both the chastening of the goat nations and the life of the sheep nations end. Then all must appear before the great white throne. The earth is destroyed and I'm sure that some from both groups of the goat and sheep nations will enter into the lake of fire.
But this is not their "eternal" lot, for, one day, death, (the second death) which the lake of fire is called, will be abolished, all will be made alive (be vivified or given immortality), subjected to Christ and God will be All in all, not All in some (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
Augustine, for all his brilliance, was not given to see certain truths in the Scriptures. While he may have been correct to state that the given psalm was meant to pertain to the vessels of mercy, It is too bad that he did not see the truth of Romans 11:32 how that God should be merciful in the future to those who are enemies to the evangel and stubborn now.
Tony Nungesser
http://www.saviourofall.org/2003Newsletters/42003Augustine.html
AUGUSTINE
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
"In Christ all shall be made alive"
not
All who are in Christ
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
My, what an impressive list. Wish I had time to read them all. But, I have read some.
Thanks Rodger.
BAPTISM
There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.
QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/?s=choosing+what+is+choice
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX
"That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We've portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it's up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.
We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation 'is not of him that willeth' (any decision we make of ourselves), 'nor of him that runneth' (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
Butch Cassidy
To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."
But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "
I agree with sundance :laugh:
I stopped eating from the "tree of the knowledge of heaven and hell", I only eat from the tree of life now
CHARLES SLAGLE
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 78 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.
If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.
After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?
Even though for me I had come to know (be pretty sure) that I would be ok after death, I still had a twinge of fear from reading some things in the bible. My conversion to UR happened in a second and after that I could not have changed my mind if I tried but I was ignorant of many answers to objections people raise. Charles Slagle's writings helped me get grounded more than anyone else so I have a special place in my heart for him.
Now it seems to me, even though nobody says it, that everyone has to be satisfied with saving their own skin and to hell with everyone else. I guess it's a good thing most people are ok with that instead of going crazy, but calling that the gospel is disgusting. I'm so thankful for the peace that comes with understanding the truth.
Me too bushy :iagree:
"SECOND CHANCE"
It is true that God doesn't give anyone a second chance after they die.
But it is also true that God doesn't even give anyone a first chance while they are still alive. God doesn't save anyone by chance. But He will eventually save everyone on purpose.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus, our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
We are saved when God wants us to be, no thanks to ourselves at all.
SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS DEBARRED
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
Repentance will occur when God lays hold on the sinner by His saving grace.
"Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.
We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the
purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains." -Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
"It is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the merciful." –Verse 16. Verse 23 informs us that the vessels of mercy are made ready before for glory. Romans 8:28-30 further describes God's working in those He chooses to enjoy life during the oncoming eons. Therefore, we read in Acts 13:48, "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."
You might ask, "By whom were they set for eonian life?" God leaves no doubt in that regard; It is God's choice in grace. The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him who is calling- Ro. 9:11. See also Ro. 11:5; Eph. 1:4; John 12:37-40.
This separation, or election, which God makes, is concerned with eonian salvation, during the present wicked eon and in the two oncoming, glorious eons. God chooses final and unending salvation for all universally after the eons have run their course. John 12:32; Ro. 11:32; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 4:9-11.
James Coram
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
:banana: :banana: :banana: :thumbsup:
Though many look at this world and think God is just sitting by just watching, hoping that men will turn to Him
To rest in the peace that goes beyond any understanding of men is to know
LOVE CANNOT FAIL
LOVE WILL NOT FAIL
And to repeat the title of the book
LOVE WINS
To know there are so many out there that think the same way is always an encouragement and to repeat what rodger said
His greatest grace is keeping people from going insane when they think about eternal torment
I believe God just whispers in the ear of their heart "It's not true"
AUGUSTINE
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
"In Christ all shall be made alive"
not
All who are in Christ
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Amen.. how does "no death" somehow not equal "none dead" - if even one is dead, can it be said that there is no death? The way it is read or thought of, is as there will be "no dying". But this isn't logical. If my brother or sister, mother or daughter, father or son is dead, then death has not been vanquished nor defeated. But death won. So if God loses more than He saves.. Well. I'm sorry but that makes no sense.
Amen, Jugghead! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: bushy on July 08, 2017, 06:43:05 PM
Even though for me I had come to know (be pretty sure) that I would be ok after death, I still had a twinge of fear from reading some things in the bible. My conversion to UR happened in a second and after that I could not have changed my mind if I tried but I was ignorant of many answers to objections people raise.
This is where I think we're all at.. wanting to communicate those answers, perhaps help to make them plain..
Quote from: bushy on July 08, 2017, 06:43:05 PM
I'm so thankful for the peace that comes with understanding the truth.
From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
That would be good to put in an all new topic/thread.. and then closing it.. So we could link to it! (can we link directly to a post in a thread?)
P.S. - aha! yes we can! - http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/snippets-from-the-hard-copy-ur-library-of-rodger-tutt/msg205172/#msg205172 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/snippets-from-the-hard-copy-ur-library-of-rodger-tutt/msg205172/#msg205172)
BAPTISM
There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.
QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?
Another big question to those who believe in eternal torment:
If there are "none righteous, no not one" and "all fall short of the glory of God" ..... in other words "ALL" are guilty of sin ..... is God being a just God if He saves just some when "ALL" are guilty of sin?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/part-9-choosing-choice/
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to use your "free" will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
Butch Cassidy
To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."
But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "
:thumbsup: AMEN! Especially about the atheism.. Very true! (He gave thinking ability! I often wish we humans would use it a bit more!)
CHARLES SLAGLE
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 78 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.
If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.
After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?
Sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 10, 2017, 10:36:56 AM
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
I could not help but relate to what you said here, I have stated in my testimony in the beginning of my walk that what happened to me on December 12, 2005 was all Him
The only reason I have a desire to study His word is because HE put the hunger in me to do so, it was His hunger for me to know the truth,
I couldn't make the choice to be hungry because the dead can't get hungry, the dead can't make a choice, I was dead
I was only the recipient of that hunger (desire/want/will)
HE made the choice at the appointed time
First is the natural then the spiritual
The natural understanding is one of life in the physical body is our beginning and death of the physical body is our end
We are on the road to death. seeing only a natural understanding
The spiritual understanding is one of darkness/death in the spiritual body is our beginning and light/life in the spiritual body is our end
We are on the road to life, seeing only a spiritual understanding, death just becomes a doorway, not a destination
(and yes I know, there is a lot more to it than, just what, is stated)
my :2c:
THANKS JUGGHEAD :thumbsup:
A DAY OF SALVATION
NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html
DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."
RESPONSES
Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.
Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.
Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.
"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.
If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.
I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"
If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"
If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.
My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.
James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one day, will be abolished.
Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages 66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19).
This blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
:ty: I saved the link to this post so I can read it again! (I want to remember these answers.) :thumbsup:
DECRETIVE WILL
I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God's decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God's preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 14, 2017, 09:37:43 AM
DECRETIVE WILL
I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God's decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God's preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
Excellent explanation RT ..... Then I guess I am a theistic determinist also;
to take thought about what we OUGHT to do is to enter into our own works
to take thought about what He IS DOING is to enter into His rest to understand His work in us (what must/will be done)
focus on the things above (what must/will be done) not on the things below (what we ought to do)
It is His work in us that we can obey the golden rule: in other words;
obeying the golden rule is the result of His work in usmy :2c:
THANKS JUGGHEAD
THE TEACHING THAT COMES FROM DEMONS
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY THOMAS B. THAYER
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
"The world hates God because of the picture Christianity has painted of Him. The doctrine of eternal torment is a teaching of demons; a myth. It infects the world via a series of false expressions, printed onto tracts and forced into sermons. Those who espouse and teach it are in full heed of deceiving spirits, though they know it not.
There must be a remedy, and there is. 2Timothy 2:15, 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.'
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying."
DENY
Some people think that Matt. 10:33 means that deniers will never be saved.
But Peter denied Christ three times, Matt. 26:75, and so will all other deniers repent in due time.
DRAW / DRAG?
In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
Amen! :thumbsup: He will "
draw all" to Himself.. ["1670. helkó - I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe. -
properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing" - biblehub.com interlinear]
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 17, 2017, 04:26:09 PM
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
Human nature runs with God's Word.. Just because those not yet saved will rise "still in their sins" (initially) where does it say that all thinking, emotion, etc is now suspended and no one can be drawn after death - and resurrection! ...? yes they will be away from the LORD's presence - aionian.. especially during the millennium.. then on judgment 'day' there's bound to be some weeping and even ganshing of teeth.. (initially) but I do not believe it says anywhere in His Word that "all hope is lost"... "all who enter here" (Dante's line?)
This is an image, which to me, describes when (imo) -
https://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/ (https://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/)
"When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? -- It would be good to answer this question"
THANKS MARIE
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure. If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
I believe in the inevitability of love. Love never fails. God is love. Jesus on the cross is the ultimate demonstration of the love of God.
For me, Calvinism or Arminianism makes no difference. They both miss the point.
"I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified".....
God will have all His desire fulfilled in all creation because the goal of all He has done from the beginning is for all things to return Him, a "new creation" in Jesus,
"For from Him and though Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory into the ages"Rom 11:36...and ...
"Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things about which God has spoken by all the prophets since ancient times"
"Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"Phil 2:10,11
ETrs teach that this verse insists that God will force a reluctant submission on all the adversaries just before He torments them forever, But Jesus said,
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."
I believe this will occur because He is so full of God, a fountain overflowing with the inevitable love of God.
"For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven." Col 1
"He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature"
All that God has pre-ordained is to fulfill the end-goal of all being gathered into one in Christ, HIS LOVE being ALL IN ALL.... Whatever God has left man to choose, every choice leads him inexorably to the cross of Jesus, where He was lifted up, and from where He received His Lordship, and where every creature will be won by the inevitable love of God...
"Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason He was given the name above every name that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth...."
"Behold I am making all things new!"
THANKS EAGLESWAY
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Quote from: eaglesway on August 18, 2017, 04:57:59 PM
I believe in the inevitability of love. Love never fails. God is love. Jesus on the cross is the ultimate demonstration of the love of God.
Amen and amen. In a nutshell....everything we need to know, EW! Thank you!
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 19, 2017, 08:22:28 AM
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Again, in a nutshell! Thank you, Rodger!
D.
How would I describe a beast?
a god of the Arminian or Calvinist belief systems
Augustine and Matthew 25:46
Augustine gave a couple of reasons why he believed it was in vain that some, indeed very many, in his day, believed there was no eternal punishment:
"It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture–but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. " 'God will not forget,' " they say, " 'to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy.' " This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm. But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy," those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, " 'Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment.' " Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: " 'But the righteous into life eternal.' "
(end quote)
It may be that many of the early believers in Augustine's day did "deplore the notion of eternal punishment" by yielding to "human feelings" and reliance upon God's mercy. But, was Augustine correct to quote Matthew 25:46 to support the notion of "eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery''? I say No, he was not.
He is saying that if punishment is temporary then it logically follows that the life for the righteous is temporary as well. But is Matthew 25:31-46 really saying this is about the fate of "damned" vs. the righteous for all eternity? No! This judgment takes place when Christ comes back and sets up His 1000 year kingdom (see also Revelation 20). When Christ comes back (Matt.25:31) He will call the nations to this judgment. They will be judged as to how Christ's brethren were treated. Having faith in Christ or lack thereof is not what they are being judged for. Christ never calls the sheep nations His brothers but He does tell them that they treated His brethren correctly.
Secondly, the "kolasin aionion" or "chastening eonian" which the goat nations must endure is equal in length to the life (zoe aionion/life eonian) in the kingdom which the sheep nations enjoy. When the 1000 year eon ends, both the chastening of the goat nations and the life of the sheep nations end. Then all must appear before the great white throne. The earth is destroyed and I'm sure that some from both groups of the goat and sheep nations will enter into the lake of fire.
But this is not their "eternal" lot, for, one day, death, (the second death) which the lake of fire is called, will be abolished, all will be made alive (be vivified or given immortality), subjected to Christ and God will be All in all, not All in some (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
Augustine, for all his brilliance, was not given to see certain truths in the Scriptures. While he may have been correct to state that the given psalm was meant to pertain to the vessels of mercy, It is too bad that he did not see the truth of Romans 11:32 how that God should be merciful in the future to those who are enemies to the evangel and stubborn now.
Tony Nungesser
AUGUSTINE
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
"In Christ all shall be made alive"
not
All who are in Christ
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION library of Rodger Tutt
BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)
1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
BOOKS WITH STAPLES
1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY
BAPTISM
There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.
QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 26, 2017, 01:25:46 PM
BAPTISM
There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.
QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?
No , I sure do not , I believe when Jesus spoke of baptism , He was speaking Spiritually
and this is by the washing of the water of the Word unto repentance , being aware , woken up out of sleep /sinful nature that we need salvation of God . confessing to one another .
When He washed Peters feet , He told him He was clean every bit because of the
Word spoken to him , all but his feet , we are to wash one another feet , this is the refining of the teaching of Jesus Christ baptism of the cross , to be practiced and shared regularly from the heart towards one another for the forgiveness of sins , keeping the conscience clean to fulfilling this part of the law .
Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. When Jesus Christ breathes upon you than is the true miracle of Change coming upon us in my opinion ,giving you His peace resting on you and the opportunity of power over sin nature ... being faithful in a few things and making you ruler over many things [ keeping your house clean , when you forgive you are forgiven , or when you retain , you also become accountable of upholding the same law , Paul mentions this in Romans several places
21Again Jesus said to them,
"Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.
" 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."...
Here is the list in Romans , it is by faith in God you receive grace that saves you in the Lord Jesus Christ ....
2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
2:21-23 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
3:3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
3:6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
3:7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
3:8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come "? Their condemnation is just.
3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin...
3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also...
3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
4:1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness."
4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised...
6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
6:21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."
7:13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect?
God is the one who justifies; 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down)...
10:7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching...
10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"
10:16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
10:19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, by a nation without understanding will I anger you."
11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
11:35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same...
14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?
1 Peter 4 Living for God's Glory
...7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so you can pray.
8
Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9Show hospitality to one another without complaining.... I am trying to love above all else and asking for Gods help to do so though Jesus Christ ..:HeartThrob:
Thanks rosered
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/part-9-choosing-choice/
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to use your "free" will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."
My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.
Quote from: rodgertutt on August 27, 2017, 01:22:40 PM
GRACE OVERWHELMS
What I perceive to be a basic issue.
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Yes, it is the basic issue. Believers in unlimited free will or free moral agency put them selves in a position more powerful than God. They sit in the temple of their minds making themselves to be God.
Every Christian church I know of believes that we all have free will or free moral agency. I have heard, on numerous occasions, these words spoken from the pulpit. Time and again I am told we all have free will and free moral agency. These ideas were originated by philosophers and theologians. The reason is simple, if their ideas are correct, it gives reason for the belief that man can overrule the ultimate will of God in their lives. It means that man can refuse the salvation of God and thereby end up in hell or be annihilated by God. That takes any responsibility off of God and validates the end result of hell or annihilation by mans unwillingness to have faith in and veneration of God.
There is no mention of free will or free moral agency in the bible. Many people believe what the theologians and preachers have told them and conclude that this concept is in the bible. It is not. Yes, "free offering" is there. Also mention of our will and God's will is there. Mention of making choices is there too. But to place the word "free" in front of "will" or "choice" is reading into scripture what is not there.
We have a will but it is constrained by a number of factors. We do not have unlimited free will.
:Peace2: - Joe
I personally think that neither perspective on free will/sov is the basic issue. For me anyway, the basic issue is one's view of who God is, not recognizing Jesus as the image of God, misunderstanding the divine nature.
If one understands that God is love, then it doesnt matter how He accomplishes the end goal, because He makes all things work according to the counsel of His desire- to love and to bring all into love- because that is WHO HE IS. "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time 1 Tim 2:3-6
As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order.... 1 Cor 15:22
There are many who believe God is 100 percent in control of everything, and yet still believe He will torment millions of millions forever. IMO it is their failure to know Him as HE IS at the root of their blindness, and thank God each one of them will eventually see Him as HE IS and bow the knee and confess His Lordship in gratitude and praise.
Thank you Rodger :dsunny: Joe and John / eaglesway
I am comforted and overwhelmed by this amazing grace of God though our Lord Jesus Christ , this holy name and powerful purpose , there is no other name under heaven by which you must be saved !
I trust in His holy name and call upon it often in the times when evil comes to destroy the good , this being a truth for me so often now .
In my own flesh as well as others [ thorns ] in our flesh and the words of Paul , asking for the removal of it , but the Words of truth telling him Gods grace is sufficient for him ...
I quote the simple and beautiful TRUTH of Gods love
Romans 5 Death in Adam, Life in Christ
...19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord....
I have nothing good in me , but the Lord being so close , as to call upon His name in the time of our trials , He promised to not leave us as orphans as the Holy Spirit is witness and my understanding of what the Holy Spirit really means to me as being IS the Father and the Son and all that has went before us already! what a cloud of holy witnesses that is !
Truth reigns supreme !!!!!! and I have learned though it all, to trust in Him more and more fully as the end of all things approach us . :HeartThrob:
Butch Cassidy
To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."
But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "
CHARLES SLAGLE
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 78 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.
If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.
After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder? :Chinscratch:
"SECOND CHANCE"
It is true that God doesn't give anyone a second chance after they die.
But it is also true that God doesn't even give anyone a first chance while they are still alive. God doesn't save anyone by chance. But He will eventually save everyone on purpose.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.
IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.
Just like in the case of Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus, our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
We are saved when God wants us to be, no thanks to ourselves at all.
SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS DEBARRED
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
Repentance will occur when God lays hold on the sinner by His saving grace.
"Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.
We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the
purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far
as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He
restrains." - Snippet from the Concordant Commentary
To say that we made any choice on our own without any divine intervention is to steal from God the glory that only belongs to Him .....
it was HIS choice before the foundation of the world to save mankind ..... IMO, to say anything else is not of God
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
Amen! Salvation (reconciliation) is all His doing! :thumbsup:
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice."
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup: I bookmarked this post..
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 04, 2017, 07:37:16 AM
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on September 02, 2017, 11:41:55 AM
CHARLES SLAGLE
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.
If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.
:
if the Bible did teach ECT we would all be 'had it'...couldn't trust a god that would do something so heinous and that god is a hypocrite cos he tells us to love and forgive our enemies while hating, never forgiving and torturing his enemies.Praise God He is nothing lke that...tonight I prayed on my knees by the side of my bed....I praised Jesus and thanked Him for loving EVERY ONE of His human creation..I praised Him for saving ALL of His children...I felt the love of Jesus deep within me. He is a WONDERFUL AND LOVING God and His plan is PERFECT !.!.
Why I believe that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
Sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
Amen,Roger. He will do it His way.
A DAY OF SALVATION
NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html
DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."
RESPONSES
Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the
1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.
Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.
Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.
"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.
If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.
I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"
If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"
If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.
My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.
James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished..
Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
all these statements by those who believe in ET or EA always reminds me of a quote I heard:
Reason is not automatic ... those who deny it ... cannot be conquered by it :sigh:
One of the definitions of the word "reason" as a noun is: sound judgment; good sense :Chinscratch:
How can anyone think it is "good" sense to throw 95% of mankind in a torturous hell? :eek:
The thing is: I use to believe that ET was truth and I would argue with my last breath that ET was truth and no man could have convinced me otherwise :punish:
and what I believe to be part of the glory of God is: ONLY HE CAN CONVINCE US OTHERWISE so that no man can boast :banana:
IT IS ALL HIS DOING ..... it is only now that I can confess that Jesus is Lord and that my knee does bow and I long for the day that ALL of mankind understands this :thumbsup:
Amen jugghead!!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jugghead on September 20, 2017, 02:37:04 AM
all these statements by those who believe in ET or EA always reminds me of a quote I heard:
Reason is not automatic ... those who deny it ... cannot be conquered by it :sigh:
One of the definitions of the word "reason" as a noun is: sound judgment; good sense :Chinscratch:
How can anyone think it is "good" sense to throw 95% of mankind in a torturous hell? :eek:
The thing is: I use to believe that ET was truth and I would argue with my last breath that ET was truth and no man could have convinced me otherwise :punish:
and what I believe to be part of the glory of God is: ONLY HE CAN CONVINCE US OTHERWISE so that no man can boast :banana:
IT IS ALL HIS DOING ..... it is only now that I can confess that Jesus is Lord and that my knee does bow and I long for the day that ALL of mankind understands this :thumbsup:
agreed !...good post !
DECRETIVE WILL
I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God's decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God's preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
THE TEACHING THAT COMES FROM DEMONS
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY THOMAS B. THAYER
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
Some people think that Matt. 10:33 means that deniers will never be saved.
But Peter denied Christ three times, Matt. 26:75, and so will all other deniers repent in due time.
DRAW / DRAG?
In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).
When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod
Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure. If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
The death and resurrection of Jesus guarantees the eventual salvation of everyone.
ELECTION
Eventually everyone will be saved.
Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement.
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " - E.G.Jones
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
"Esau have I hated"
"Hate" as used by the Hebrews and Greeks, does not line up with how we use the word today.
For instance, Jesus said for certain ones to be His disciple, they would have to hate mother and father and children for His sake. But surely Jesus was not talking about a hatred such as we use the word today. Jesus was just telling those who wanted to be His disciple, that they had to give precedence to Him and His ministry over their mother, father and children.
Luke 14:26 If anyone is coming to Me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he can not be My disciple."
Jesus was not asking them to break the law of Moses which was to honour your mother and father.
The same goes for Esau. God gave precedence to Jacob by blessing him with the firstborn rights. But God later blessed Esau too.
Tony Nungesser
Thanks Brother Rodger !
I love that you brought this out today ... It goes very well with the the Holy Spirit is teaching also in His Word ..
It seems the Thayer meaning is good teaching tool for the confused .
My biggest struggle has been trying to understand what is good in Gods sight and what is evil in His sight as well , when we act upon anything as good or evil .
I do believe it is God whom separates those things for us , by teaching us to choose the good , being carnal first as Esau was and being faithful in a few things , in the unrighteous mammon [ things pertaining to this world ] like being honest from the heart etc fair with one another ,that gives us the adoption of sons that are redeemed under the law of sin and death first , and than becoming heirs to the promises in the new covenant in
Gal 4 ...4But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 to redeem those under the Law, that we might receive our adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"...
I also do see the that we are to always put GOD first in everything we do , Jesus Christ is the perfect example we are to follow into eternal Life though Him that is the only way to the Father is though the Son of Man and being the son of God also is the great gulf fixed by the Father , and the parable of the rich man [ Hades/grave ] and Lazarus [raised from death] by the promise of Abraham's seed by faith ] comes to mind , the ladder of Jacobs dream of old[ Gen 28; 10-17] and the new in John 1;51] Jesus holds both the keys to open heaven and the keys of Hades and death Being the Lord of the dead and the living .
Many blessings to you all.
http://bibleapps.com/greek/3404.htm (http://bibleapps.com/greek/3404.htm)
ESPECIALLY
GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God 'is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the 'all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
'To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' "
:happyclap: :ty:
What an awesome post! That dude said it!!
"eternal damnation"
The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez.16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
Lovely :dsunny: <3
A snippet from
Etymology of the Word "Damn"
The words "damn" and "Hell" are among favorite words spoken by theologians of the "hell-fire" type.
Let us look into the etymology of this word "damn." We may find some interesting surprises.
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-EtymologyOfTheWordDamn.html
EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW
Does the subjection of all under Christ's feet involve forced submission?
1 Cor. 15:20-28. Not at all; first, we see that Christ will subject Himself to His Father. The same word is used because the same action is described; willing and worshipful submission. This is underscored in Phil. 2:9-11, where all bow IN the name of Jesus, a name meaning "God saves". How is it that every tongue will be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord? No one is able to say 'Jesus is Lord" except by Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:3. So it is apparent that their hearts are susceptible to God's spirit.
"For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10.
How many will He seek? "And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to myself." John 12:32. The word 'men' is not in the Greek; this is universal.
If we read Phil. 3:21, we see the use of the Greek word "kata" ("in accord with/ according to"); see Matt. 9:29 for another example. We are told that the operation which enables Christ to subject all to Himself is in accord with the transfiguration of the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory. Nothing could be farther from forced subjugation than this!
Paul reveals a wondrous truth in Romans 5:19, and it relates to all mankind: "For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." Reconciliation is a willing and mutual agreement; one-sided conciliation or forced submission doesn't correspond with God's plan as described in Colossians 1:15-20.
"Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, for, moreover, all our doings You do contrive for us." Is. 26:12. See 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
:thumbsup: :ty: I had not noticed in Romans 5:19 how speaking of both Adam and Jesus, it says "the many". The interlinear shows too that indeed, in both cases, it is "the" many.. #G3588 -
And interesting, that many - "polloi" #G4183 - I remember from school that the greek is the basis of many of our words.. I remember the phrase (the) "hoi polloi".. haven't heard it for a while..
..Another great post and bit of writing!!
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
"All men will be saved. But God isn't trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.
Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace. As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.
God not only 'allows' evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day."
Thank you Rodger for all your honest efforts and pure love flowing from the throne room of Gods grace though Jesus Christ LIVING Body ,
to eat and drink of , that we might have Life in us also .
He is the Lord of the dead and the living and will accomplish everything He promises to do for mankind in his present condition In Adam all die but in Christ all shall be made ALIVE though Himself :HeartThrob:
Amen Rose and thanks Rodger for your posts and research.
Most Christians, instinctively revolt at the initial thought that evil can be from God. It is repulsive to our spiritual natures. It is natural to disregard it by making Satan the origin of all evil. No where in scripture is it said that the evil one originated it. Only God can give the power or capacity to do evil.
There are many passages in God's Word which bear out the great truth that all things—the evil as well as the good—find their source in the one and only God. It is readily admitted that many find it very hard to associate evil with God. They refuse to believe God's plain statements concerning it and end up ignoring it or modifying God's Word to suit their misconception. Theologians desire to shield God from all association with evil.
There is a purpose in evils creation, since nothing can be purposeless that comes from Him.
Rom 11:36 (KJV) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Isa 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
:thumbsup:
THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
"The mission of Christ was to destroy the enemy and to set the prisoners free. Now this word 'destroy' does not mean to annihilate. In the Greek it means to make of no effect. When Christ took the keys from the prison keeper he, Satan, lost all power and authority. Christ made his office of no effect (Heb. 2:14&15).
While prophets of doom forecast calamity and destruction, the mind of Christ speaks and lights our world with the vision of universal restoration and reconciliation.
Paul told of a great victory where every knee would bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul did not say that only a small number will bow and confess, but he said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. And no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit. What a glorious day that will be when every foot steps forth in the river of life up to the ankle, and from the ankle up to the knee. Every knee shall bow!
We are not an accident! We are not a mistake! No one has been overlooked by the Creator. All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.
When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river."
Quote from: rodgertutt on November 14, 2017, 06:53:55 AM
We are not an accident! We are not a mistake! No one has been overlooked by the Creator. All of us are His jewels, the apple of His eye, His purpose, reason and will.
When we see God in all things, and realize that all things are in His hands for the eventual good of everyone, then our lives will flow as peacefully as a river."
thank you for this!
FUNDAMENTALS OR BASIS OF BELIEF – Thomas Griffith
"We will get good out of evil. Our gracious Educator does evolve for us out of corruption, temptation and sin, new purposes, new skill, new triumphs.
Beyond the overruling of intermediate evil into subserviency to a higher good, what has been superinduced as a transition state of things is therefore seen to be necessary only for a time. It will pass away with the functions which it is made to fulfill. It will at last be superseded by the highest good for everyone."
Amen adversity #H7451 - ra' (translated evil) is absolutely for the best good for all.. We can absolutely trust His wisdom.. :cloud9:
:thumbsup:
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
THE EPICURIAN – Thomas Moore
"The God of benevolence, in Whose hands sin and death are but instruments of everlasting good, and Who, bringing all things 'out of darkness into His marvelous light,' proceeds watchfully, and unchangingly to the great, final object of His providence, the restoration of the whole human race to purity and happiness."
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
"God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some, evil is never to cease. God is never able, as they see it, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent, whereas the only freedom of man which the scriptures affirm is the freedom of deliverance we find alone in Christ Jesus."
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
CONVERSATIONS ON THE DIVINE GOVERNMENT – Theophilus Lindsey
"The doctrine of eternal torments is a millstone that Christians hang around the neck of the Gospel. The words translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'forever,' and the like, generally signify limited periods of duration.
Everything is from God, and for the good of all. All things, good as well as what we call evil, are appointed by Infinite Wisdom and Benevolence, for the wisest and most gracious purposes for everyone."
Awesome posts!! :icon_flower:
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."
THE STRANGER IN LOWELL – John Greenleaf Whittier
"Through discords of sin and sorrow, pain and wrong, truth rises, a deathless melody whose notes of wailing are hereafter to be changed to those of triumph as they blend with the great harmony of a reconciled universe."
THE PEOPLE'S OWN BOOK – F. De La Mennais (1782-1854)
"If suffering was eternal, we should be compelled to conceive of it as independent, as subsisting by itself, or to admit something still more monstrous, for if it was not self-existent, if it was dependant on the divine will, God would be the direct author of eternal suffering.
But what Christ said is now and ever will be true:- 'Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' And one day all will come unto Him. The world, deluged with light, and feeling within itself, with the revival of hope, the revival also of faith and love, shall salute that day with songs of joy."
Fear
by Walter Lanyon
Fear can manifest only because of a belief in separation. As long as you are something apart from God you will experience, in one form or another, fear. It is subtle and hidden like a poisonous serpent coiled in the grass, liable to strike at any time--at the most unguarded moment, when least expected.
Its only power is given to it by thought, and it can be swollen by thought from a serpent into a dragon. All thoughts of evil are like toy balloons in that they are enlarged until finally the capacity is overtaxed and they burst. Sooner or later a fear will explode itself, however much or little damage it has done.
The panacea for all fear is your union with God.
The moment you are separated from ME and wander into the thought world (the vacuum of separation), you are subject to the laws of fear. The one who is filled with fear sees the ''ten thousand fall at your right hand,'' and is so convinced of the reality and power of evil that he fails to notice the one who passes through unscathed.
''Stand and see the salvation of the Lord'' has a definite, positive value to you NOW. For you are beginning to sense-see the power of being one instead of two. You are beginning to appropriate the instantaneous relief felt from this ONENESS.
This sudden appropriation of ONENESS is accompanied by the consciousness of how to eliminate the object of, or the belief in, fear. There are different ''cities'' of refuge into which you may run for every differing degree of fear; yet all are the same God. This ''running'' into God is not as symbolical as it appears. It is an actual fusing of you with the Father within you, and from that moment you are a majority, and you will know the NOTHINGNESS of the fear belief.
We arrive finally at the point, which is so full of the acceptance of God that it can and does say, ''Even if You slay me, yet I will say You are God''---and the last stand is taken. Even if You slay me---yet will I acknowledge this One and Only Power.
http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/pages.asp?pageid=37154
THE FOOL OF QUALITY – Henry Brooke (click on See More)
"And thus, on the grand and final consummation, when every will shall be subdued to the will of good to all, our Jesus will take in hand the resigned chordage of our hearts. He will tune them as so many instruments, and will touch them with the finger of His own divine feelings. Then shall the wisdom, the might, the goodness of our God, become the wisdom, might and goodness of all His intelligent creatures. The happiness of each shall multiply and overflow in the wishes and participation of the happiness of all. The universe shall begin to sound with the song of congratulation, and all voices shall break forth in an eternal hallelujah of praise transcending praise, and glory transcending glory to God and the Lamb."
Wikipedia says
"John Wesley was so fond of The Fool of Quality, in which Brooke declares his belief in universal salvation that he sought to have a copy of it given out to all new Methodist churches."
THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
"Words are inadequate to describe the harm which has resulted from confounding the ages with eternity.
The Greek and Hebrew terms rendered 'forever and ever,' 'eternal,' 'everlasting' never refer to endlessness; but to a series of terminable periods know as age-times. These ages are periods in which God carries on remedial work, but they have a conclusion and pass away when the purpose to be accomplished in them has been realized. The ages are never synonymous with endlessness but always distinct therefrom.
That the words translated 'forever and ever' are associated with the hereafter of both believer and unbeliever is true; but in the case of both it is limited to the span of the ages, and has not the remotest reference to the final state of either. Therefore the dogmas of endless agony and endless sin rest on purely imaginary premises and are without the slightest shred of biblical support."
EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for
the eons of the eons."
HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of aion.
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the Greek noun aion must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal continues."
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
(Rev. 20:10) They shall be tormented for a limited period of time.
Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
Reconciliation in the heavens
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
FOUR VIEWS OF GOD'S SALVATION
BIBLICAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION EXPOUNDED
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – by Charles Slagle
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:
"FREE WILL"
A will in bondage to an enslaved mind is only "free" to choose what they prefer which is summed up in Romans 3:10-18. Until God intervenes and causes Jesus to be choice in their heart like He did for Saul of Tarsus, the sinner will always choose their own way rather than God's way unless they happen to coincide.
Gerry Beauchemin wrote
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
In the conclusion of THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL, Martin Luther wrote
"There can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!"
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#conc
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."
Martin Zender
GOD'S METHODS WITH MAN – G. Campbell Morgan (pages 185-186)
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole book of God corresponding with our 'eternal,' which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. Men have divided the church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a though conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible."
G. Campbell Morgan
In response to that statement, the SCRIPTURE STUDIES CONCERN editor (unnamed) wrote in 1956
"We cannot conceive of a Creator Who knows the end from the beginning, One Who is Love, Who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages. God's punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour."
True that the word eternity is not found in the Holy Scriptures. At first blush that may seem as not all that important. But the adoption of the word eternity hides the truth of God's plan of salvation of mankind through the eons. Many hymns use the word and some church names even adopt the word (i.e. - "Church of the eternal God").
In my early years of understanding God's Plan, I found the tentmaker web site a wealth of scriptural truths for which I am most great-full. One very good article on this subject is:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html.
Even though it was written long ago in 1875 it is just as fresh and relevant today as it was then.
Thanks joeteekay
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ABOUT THE AUTHOR - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/AboutAuthor.html
:thumbsup:
By George Hawtin
"the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets" (Acts 3:21).
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto You: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21).
Peter's statement speaks clearly of the times of the restitution of all things. Restitution, according to the best English usage, means the act of restoring something that has been taken away or lost; the act of making good or rendering an equivalent as for loss or injury. (Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary) This is in exact harmony with the Greek work temuriak which means restoration.
Some will no doubt reply to this by stating, as many do, that Peter was not promising that God would restore everything but only those things of which the prophets had spoken. I wish, however, to show as clearly as possible that the grammatical construction of this sentence declares the exact opposite to be the truth. I mean that Peter was actually saying that all the prophets from the beginning of the world had prophesied that there would be a restoration of all things and that the restoration would indeed be universal and would include all things.
You will notice that in the scripture quoted (Acts 3:21, King James Version) there is a comma after the word things. This comma indicates that the clause following : "which God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began" – is what is known as a non-restrictive clause. A non-restrictive clause is one which can be omitted without changing or destroying the meaning of the principal clause or main statement. (See Mastering Effective English by Tressler-Lewis, Revised Edition, Pages 545-546.) It simply adds further information.
Now read the scripture, omitting the clause in question, and you will find the meaning is clearly stated and nothing of the sense is destroyed. If this clause were modifying the word things, it would be restrictive and no comma would be used.
GOATS
This is a thrilling poem by Matthew Arnold, keeping in mind the following fact.
Universalism was The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
As students of the history of Christian doctrine know, among believers in eternal torment, Tertullian was one of the most extreme. That is why I think this poem is so powerful. It sent a thrill up and down my spine. :-)
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, --
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: amen..
Quote
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
:ty: reading this..
and watching these videos (excellent!) posted, but don't remember in what thread or room, oy. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
GOD COUNTED THE COST by Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor :-)
"For which of you , intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he that laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock Him, saying, This man began to build, and he was not able to finish. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements, and His ways past finding out! In all this Job did not sin, nor did he attribute folly to the way God was working. Luke 14:28-30; Roman 11:33 and Job 1.22.
No matter what the circumstances of life are, we should not charge God with folly. Natural reasoning cannot wrap around the negative happenings of this life, but we can relax in the knowledge that God is in complete control and He knows what he is doing.
Christendom's theology on the plan and purpose of God has become a gross perversion of the truth and most certainly attributes folly to God. They want us to believe that God started well but the devil upset His plans; so now He has substituted a salvage program to try and save a few scraps, even though His initial plans has ended in disaster. No wonder it reads in Matthew 15:9, "In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." They call Him "God" but they deny it by their teaching. They exalt the devil and attribute to his power that he doesn't even have. They teach a so-called "rapture" in which God somehow manages to snatch a few out of the hands of a semi-omnipotent devil, while the rest are destined to suffer in the fire of hell forever. This kind of teaching, my friends, is attributing folly to God. Such a god deserves to be mocked and ridiculed for such a performance. Such a god is not really God!
Jesus said that a man should count the cost before he enters into any Endeavour, otherwise his half-finished project will attest to his inability and lack of resourcefulness. And yet Christendom dares to attribute such folly to God Himself! When God laid out His plan and purpose for the ages, He guaranteed ahead of time a totally successful accomplishment of all His pleasure. Surely God in His all-knowing omnipotence should not be accused of operating by a principle that is inferior to how He has instructed weak and finite man to operate by!
Job38:7 tells us that the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy when God started His plan of the ages. They knew that God was going to do something beyond all expectation. Christendom comes along and tries to tell us that all of a sudden the bottom fell out, an enemy interfered, and now the best that God can do is a patch up job.
God is raising up a people who will preach the truth about His plan of the ages, and this preaching will produce the results that God is after instead of bondage to a Babylonian system of beliefs. Isaiah 40:12-14 says, "Who hath measure the waters in the hollow of God's hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales. and the hills in a balance? Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counselor hath taught Him? With whom took He counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge and showed to him the way of understanding?" God does not need any help from anybody to finish His job and accomplish all His pleasure. Neither can anybody hinder or delay His purposes. He is all-sufficient within Himself to get done what He wants done, and no created will can affect the working out of His plan. God has said to Himself, "I have counted the cost, and I know that I have enough resources to finish My plan for the ages and present it back to Myself a total triumphant victory. In Psalm 50:12 God says, "The world is Mine, and the fullness thereof." The entire world belongs to God. None of it belongs to Satan. Satan can only manifest temporary partial control so that God can work a greater purpose out of it. God knew that He could not lose, because He knew that he was willing to give enough of His resources to attain a total reconciliation.
The reason that man's love fails is because it doesn't keep loving long enough. But God's love NEVER fails, because He will keep loving, and keep loving until the desired loving response has been attained. God will not, indeed cannot fail to win the loving allegiance of every heart that He has created.
A man who loves a lady until she consents to marry him is like God. While courting her, the man brings her many gifts. But after she marries him he goes to her place, loads up all the gifts and takes them and her back to his place, and he hasn't lost a thing. If he only loved half-way he would lose his entire investment; but God loves all the way and He will not lose even one soul. It is true that the sinful soul will die, but it will be raised up again into newness of life in Christ Jesus. The destruction of the sinful soul is part of God's love-process. God's love never fails. God's love always wins. Contrary to what Christian Babylon teaches, God's love will not stop being effective when we die. Neither will it stop being effective at any point in time after the resurrection. Without any failures, God will accomplish His purpose for loving us. Not even our own will can separate us from the love of God; for He has not created us with a will so strong that he cannot influence it for our own good and for His glory. God counted the cost and he said to Himself, "I will spend everything necessary till I have gained everything for My glory." God so loved the world that He gave to receive it and, bless your heart, the world He will get! Nothing will be wasted. Nobody will be lost. But in God's year of jubilee the creation will be returned unto Himself in better shape than when He thrust it away from Himself. Acts 15:18 says, "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the ages." God knew every act and every sequence of events. He always knew what followed each development, for He Himself is the cause behind every development.
God knows us inside out. He knows why we feel the way we feel and why we do the things we do. He knows all of our motivations and desires, and He will control them all to work out His special plan for us. The Psalmist said, "O Lord, Thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and my uprising. Thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. Lo, O Lord, Thou knowest it altogether, Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit, or whether shall I flee from Thy presence? If I make my bed in hell, behold Thou are there. If I dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall Thy hand lead me, and Thy right hand shall hold me. How precious also are Thy thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them they are more in number than the sand, And when I awake, I am still with Thee. Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me, and know my thoughts, and see if there by any wicked way in me, and lead me in Thy way for the ages."
God is responsible for, and in perfect control of the interplay of good and evil in our life. He does not tempt us to sin, but He does allow us to be tempted in order to teach us lessons through it. God takes full responsibility for our temptation, for it is only because of His sustaining power that any tempter can tempt us. Man is accountable for yielding to temptation but God is responsible for it. And because God is responsible for it, He will see to it that man learns a positive lesson through the negative result of his accountability. God will not allow any sin to gain a permanent victory over anyone, but He will reverse its destructive power and turn it into good.
Rejected and scorned, ignored and trampled on and utterly despised - still God's love suffers it all till it has won over every heart. Isaiah 66:9 says, "Shall I bring to birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord. Shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith Thy God." God counted the cost and He knew that he would not lose out on any part of His plan of the ages, but would gain all back into Himself. All loss is temporary, for God sows the seeds of gain in every loss. "For from Him and for Him and to Him are all things." Romans 11:36. And Hebrews 2:15 says that Christ rendered of non-effect him that had the power of death, that is the devil, for the purpose of delivering them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
"Let him that buildeth a tower be careful to count the cost,
Lest having the tower started, he finds that it cannot be finished.
And others beholding will mock him for all that he purposed and lost.
Our God has a plan for the ages - a purpose beyond all compare.
He carefully weighed out the balance and marked out the course for each man.
Then measure the good and the evil, creation in sorrow would share.
He willingly gave of His treasure - not even withholding His Son,
But followed His plan of redemption through Calvary, death and the tomb,
Secure in the knowledge that vict'ry would climax all He began.
He shall not be mocked by sinners; He shall not be found to fail.
The purpose which He determined, in mysteries yet to be known
Will find in Him its perfection - His love and His grace shall prevail.
He bringeth to birth and His power is strong to deliver His own.
The firstfruits of this generation, and all that the ages shall hold,
Till ALL THINGS in Him are united to worship the King on His throne.
God has not lost. God will not lose. He sat down, counted the cost and said, "I have enough grace and love to finish the job before the ages have been completed." ALL THINGS will be restored; nothing will be wasted, nothing will be lost. Everything will be returned to His glory and praise."
Ray Prinzing
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ! ..That is SO awesome!! ..and so very logical! :cloud9:
ESTABLISHED BY GRACE - Ray Prinzing
God's grace will successfully bring our salvation to completion. He gives us both the desire and ability to work out our salvation. It is God all the way. We are not saved because we believe. We believe because God has caused us to believe.
Grace is the spontaneous generosity of God's heart without any expectation of return and no strings attached. Grace causes us to choose righteousness. We are saved by grace, we walk by grace, and we are kept by grace. It is grace all the way.
Under the law God said, "you shall and I will." But under grace God says "I will and you shall because I will do the you shall through you.
God will arrange circumstances that will cause us to lose all confidence in the flesh. When grace comes into our life, He becomes a life style. Grace is our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Where true grace abounds, righteousness will be the result.
Grace is so expansive that it will cause everyone to be saved. It will result in the total restoration of every creature. Every preacher who fights the message of the salvation of all will also fight the message of grace and will try to shackle you with the law of only if you "do" will you be saved. But it's only because He has saved you that you will "do" what He wants you to do. God will cause grace to expand in our consciousness until we understand that it will include everyone.
Grace doesn't give anyone a second chance. Grace doesn't even give anyone a first chance. Grace effectively saves. It doesn't just give us a chance to be saved. If you can't believe in Jesus right now, just wait. A time is coming when God's grace will cause you to believe in Him. When God gives you faith to believe it will be impossible for you not to believe. Grace will effectively constrain us to be conformed to His image.
Excerpts from the writings of Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
"Modern theology has so long circumvented our thinking and teaching to the biased idea that God will save only part of His creation and so limited His redemptive powers that we have forgotten that with God all things are possible and shall be wrought out in due time. God has a definite schedule for saving His creatures, and there is nothing that can withstand His purpose.
Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. It is all a part of God's purpose of the ages and redemption's glory will only shine out the more after the plan's execution. God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control."
THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
GOD WILL NOT LET ANYONE SUFFER FOREVER
Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time.
Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
Matthew 25:46
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
Dean Hough wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
While believers are enjoying life eonian, unbelievers will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
SEE
THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
GOD'S "CONVERSION" – Kenneth Larsen
God's "Conversion" : A mythological saga of our Heavenly Father's change
of character, as told by theologians, ancient and modern.
In Adam, all are dying, for the creation was subjected to vanity. 1
Cor. 15:22; Ro. 8:20. It was through one offense for all mankind for
condemnation. Ro. 5:18. We were all constituted sinners through the
disobedience of one man. Ro. 5:19. This collective perdition came
through no choice of ours as individuals, but is our inheritance, our
fate.
Nevertheless, so the story goes, there came a time when God, wanting
to conform His doings to the highest ethical standards, set Himself
upon a radically different course. Henceforth, He would not act
arbitrarily, but only in accordance with the rights and sovereign
choices of the individual; from then on He was to obtain permission
from His creature before acting on his or her behalf. In contrast to
the collective loss, salvation was to be an individual matter, and
subject to obtaining cooperation from His subjects. No more "spiritual
collectivism"; now God had enthusiastically embraced the "spiritual
free market". Our Heavenly Father was now, henceforth and officially,
a "Gentleman", and would no longer force anything upon anyone; He
would subject His will that all mankind be saved to the whims of the
very creation He had formerly confined under collective condemnation.
1 Tim. 2:1-6. The "plan of salvation" would consist of Christ offering
salvation to all, and then being satisfied with whatever percentage He
could manage to save. Isaiah 53. He would be honorifically titled "the
Savior of all mankind", but that would really amount to nothing more
than wishful thinking, for He would especially (that is, only, as the
story goes) save those who believe during this life. 1 Tim. 4:9-11.
Did God truly change His dealings with mankind? Does He really change?
Of course not! Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:12; 13:8; Jn. 14:9; 10:30. "For even
as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be
vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22. "Even as... thus also..."- In similar fashion to
the collective death, is the collective life! Romans 5:15- "But not as
the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one,
the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace,
which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds." Who
are the many who died because of Adam's offense? All mankind. And so,
much rather, God's gratuity in grace, through Christ's perfect life
and obedience to the death of the cross, SUPERABOUNDS to the many- all
mankind! Does the salvation of some of those lost suggest a
superabundance of grace? No! Does a collective, obligatory
condemnation to sin and death, coupled with an individual, optional
justification of life constitute a superabundance of grace? Not by a
long shot! God subjected the creation to vanity in HOPE! Ro. 8:20. Did
He hope that the entrance of sin would cause even one to be
permanently lost? Of course not! Lk. 15:3-32.
Ro. 5:18, 19- "Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for
all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award
for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the
disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus
also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted
just." As it was through Adam (a collective condemnation), THUS ALSO
it will be through Christ (a collective justification of life)! God
promises a universal reconciliation. Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:5-11. He
will draw all creation to Himself, using whatever loving means He has
at His disposal, including judgments. Jn. 12:32; 1:9-13; 1 Cor.
3:10-15; Lk. 12:45-49. Our Heavenly Father will confer faith and
repentance upon all, at the time He chooses. 2 Pt.3:9; Acts 5:31;
11:18; 17:31; 2 Tim. 2:25. Obviously, our stubborn will must be
subdued, but take heart, for "Not stronger that He are we!" 1 Cor.
10:22; Is. 45:22, 23. Our unchanging God will be All in all! 1 Cor.
15:20-28.
EDITOR'S NOTE
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
GOD'S WRATH
God's wrath ends:
Micah 7:18 You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.
Isaiah 57:16 I will not accuse them forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then they would faint away because of me—
the very people I have created.
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
So God's wrath does not go on indefinitely; it is completed at some point.
All are to be reconciled:
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in the heavens, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Eph 1:9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in the heavens and on earth under Christ.
Ultimately God is all in all:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
GRACE, PLUS NOTHING – James Coram
"This is not to say that our efforts are not essential or that there will be nothing for us to do since it is God Who saves us from our failings. To the contrary, God graciously saves us by causing us to work, "training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon" Titus 2:11,12. But our efforts are merely a product; they are the means through which God saves us. We contribute nothing.
It is not a question of our discipline and volition, but of pride and self-reliance concerning our discipline and volition, of boasting in the flesh instead of glorying in the transforming power of God. As long as we continue to see ourselves, in the final sense, as the key to anything, we will remain proud, antagonistic to "the grace of God in truth" Col. 1:6.
It is one thing to conceive of ourselves, in a dutiful sense and relatively speaking, as "cooperating" with the Lord Jesus, as He leads us into paths of better service. It is quite another, however, proudly to fancy ourselves to be so utterly independent of the Supreme Deity Himself, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that even He is at a loss to change our will or walk without our help.
Luke 6:32-35 shows us what God's grace (thanks) is; He is gracious to the wicked, which means sinners like we all were when He was gracious to us. It's not that we have to preach so they can be saved, otherwise we're responsible for their "eternal damnation", and they have to receive the message (if we happen to present it to them), or else they will be eternally damned. Salvation is not based on human actions, but on divine actions. He chooses who to save and when, and at that moment, that soul is saved. And He will save all, as He has clearly said He will do.
We believe the message we heard, and we preach because we are so commanded, but God doesn't depend upon us to save ourselves, nor does He depend upon our conveying the message, to save others. He is the only Sovereign, and He so arranges EVERYTHING that each will be saved. Free will and chance are myths which have completely twisted the mindset of many Christians.
Luke 6:32-35 is a wonderful example of char'is (thanks or grace) - grace is not given in response to human cooperation; grace brings about a response on the part of the recipient, but the grace saves, not the response. God saves us freely, for the gratuity in grace to all mankind superabounds! Romans 5:15."
Matthew 11:23 is an example that whether or not we repent depends on God.
Sodom would have repented had the mighty works that Jesus did in Capernaum been done in Sodom.
The question of course arises, why didn't God send someone into Sodom to do those mighty works that would have caused their repentance?
The answer is that God decides when He will grant repentance just like He did for Saul of Tarsus.
By Hannah Whitall Smith
"...I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul, "O, God, how canst Thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it." I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so. Then suddenly God seemed to answer me. An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." "Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him." And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia -- not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it--but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race. God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue- words could not be more embracing. The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed- somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever.
I hurried home to get hold of my Bible, to see if the magnificent fact I had discovered could possibly have been all this time in the Bible, and I had not have seen it; and the moment I entered the house, I did not wait to take off my bonnet, but rushed at once to the table where I always kept my Bible and Concordance ready for use, and began my search. Immediately the whole Book seemed to be illuminated. On every page the truth concerning the "times of restitution of all things" of which the Apostle Peter says "God Hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began," shone forth, and no room was left for questioning. I turned greedily from page to page of my Bible, fairly laughing aloud for joy at the blaze of light that illuminated it all. It became a new book. Another skin seemed to have been peeled off every text, and my Bible fairly shone with a new meaning. I do not say with a different meaning, for in no sense did the new meaning contradict the old, but a deeper meaning, the true meaning, hidden behind the outward form of words. The words did not need to be changed, they only needed to be understood; and now at last I began to understand them."
A snippet from The Unselfishness of God and How I Discovered It
By Hannah Whitall Smith
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm
__________________
ALL FOR JESUS
THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
"We read in 1Tim. 1:11 that Paul was entrusted with the evangel of the glory of the happy God. We read in 1Tim. 2:4 that God wills that all mankind be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and that Christ Jesus gave Himself a correspondent ransom for all (2:6).
Our God is a happy God. In Ephesians 1:10,11 we learn of the secret of God's will, and this accords with His delight. It gives God joy and happiness and delight to purpose and bring about 'an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ.'
Such an evangel is certainly for the laud of His glory."
HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED
https://bible.org/question/does-matt-2413-conflict-free-grace-salvation-and-believer%E2%80%99s-security
A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT IMO SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
A recently published book that shows why Gerry believes that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN...
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
HORNETS :laughing7:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/642895-hornet-song.html
HOW I RECOVERED
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH ---
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I'm 79 years old.
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 79 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your browser address bar.
0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA - Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE - Thomas Kissinger
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
http://www.archive.org/stream/willgodsplanfail00priduoft#page/n13/mode/2up
24. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
25. GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE
http://www.gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsEonianPurpose/GodsEonianPurpose00.htm - Adlai Loudy
26. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
27. THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http:/gtft.org/
SOME PERSONAL THOUGHTS ON "I NEVER KNEW YOU"
"There is no better place than being in the hands of God."
For a UR that is definitely true!
But for an ETer, probably not, because they might turn out to be one of these guys.
"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils, and in Thy Name have done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them I never knew you. Depart from Me ye who work iniquity' (Matt. 7:22,23).
We could probably add to those declarations that many, in astonishment, will also say, -- "but my name should be right there in the book of life because I got myself saved in Your Name!"
They fully expect to go right into heaven based on what they had done in the Name of Jesus.
Instead, Jesus will cast them into the lake of fire which is the second death which will include kolasis aionion, which means age-during corrective chastisement.
It is God, not us, who decides who will or will not be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
If you cannot love an endless hell god
QUESTION TO ME BY A POSTER
"In your own words, please explain why you find it so important to 'evangelize' so zealously.
Thank you."
Because many people are unable to love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into a state of inescapable everlasting suffering.
I'm 79 and the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
agreed...'hellists' love to speak of God's 'justice'...God must punish sin....but is it truly 'justice' to punish people endlessly, forever ?....to create or allow a person to come into existence all the while knowing that person will experience eternal misery...so, on top of all the oceans of scarlet blood spilt in wars etc since human kind appeared on earth...on top of all the pain, agony and turmoil people have experienced, both physical and mental..on top of all this, countless millions will be cast into 'hell' to suffer forever ?....and all the while, an omniscient God knew this was going to happen ?...knew that he was bringing into existence a system which results in incomprehensible suffering for millions not only in this world but in the world to come....who could possibly, deep down, love a god like this....I know I couldnt......I would fear such a god but love ?... thank God the God we believers in UR accept, is not that evil 'eternal hellist' god but the true God who ultimately saves and redeems all !
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 09, 2018, 05:41:06 AM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
Quote from: darryl on January 09, 2018, 07:59:09 PM
is it truly 'justice' to punish people endlessly, forever ?....to create or allow a person to come into existence all the while knowing that person will experience eternal misery...so, on top of all the oceans of scarlet blood spilt in wars etc since human kind appeared on earth...on top of all the pain, agony and turmoil people have experienced, both physical and mental..on top of all this, countless millions will be cast into 'hell' to suffer forever ?....
I never really took the hell, or angry God story to be true. I was 'lucky' to not be raised in it, and perhaps to have a problem with authority figures, so I never took to church. Though I did think for a short time there might be literal 'children of satan', so evil they would perish forever. But that was ridiculous and it echoed every hatred there'd ever been.. I liked reading the post on the second link, of the guy who reasoned it out. These stories and accounts certainly show the truth of we can discern something's worth by its fruit! How sad.. It's very true too that it has led to a lot of atheism. And I think, a lot of atheist folks who, ironically, seem to hate God.. But of course it's that more satanic type 'god'... :doh: :faint:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 09, 2018, 05:41:06 AM
a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Amen. :iagree: ..That is 100% true. :dsunny: :cloud9: I believe God's Word is permeated with UR. The 'wrong way' leads to destruction and ruin, but there's no "forever" about it! The translators ran with it. Over and over. But sometimes nowadays, I think a lot of Christians don't really take the hell bit seriously..( :dontknow: ) But then they don't let their selves care too much about others, lest it turn out to be literally true after all. (Which thank God, we know to be merely an insane idea! Truly.) And then of course there's other folks who are just plain horribly mean. Or maybe they're deranged. Yes, it is a form of derangement..
Thanks for the chance to rant a bit! I've gotten much more outspoken about UR these days, too.
Infant Salvation
Believers in eternal torment are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few", also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin said, "There are babies a span long in hell".
Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if evangelicals are right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies' eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 104 year old Dad often said, "That's what makes Him God!"
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!
* Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!
Having been raised a Catholic, I understand the importance placed on infant baptism and christening. For a Catholic, infant baptism cancels out "original sin" and ensures that the death of an baptized infant results in avoiding hell and going to "heaven".
From the web:
The Catholic Sacrament of Baptism. Baptism is the one sacrament that all Christian denominations share in common. In the Catholic Church, infants are baptized to welcome them into the Catholic faith and to free them from the original sin they were born with.
Well written Rodger.
INSANITY
Does traditional Christianity cause insanity? Many seem to think so. This video is the story a pastor and his daughter of their journey from the traditional turn or burn gospel to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like it on Facebook and please send links to your family and friends. Gary Amirault
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnZRms3XZE
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
CONSEQUENSES OF TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF "ETERNAL HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
Child Sacrifice in Christianity? Yep!! Watch:
Christian Molech Worship by Tentmaker Ministries:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuhBdWbJXQ
I just wanted to let you know Rodger, I can not even imagine what you went through with your nervous breakdown ..... even with what I went through I would not wish it upon my worst enemy and it was nothing compared to your testimony.
watching the two videos of Gary that you posted and reading the others, it is no wonder why you and Gary do the things you do in trying to get "THE VICTORIOUS GOSPEL" out to those who are suffering.
My walk started with a single word called "compassion" ..... and with all I have come to understand since that day (12/12/2005), compassion for others is what this world lacks, it was what I lacked, for without compassion, forgiveness is impossible.
Even if I am never able to do the works you guys do in bringing "This Gospel" to others, I have my part and I have peace in it. I also know, in which others also understand, that no one member is greater than another for we all work together as one.
Our convictions are the same in the extra gift each has been given.
Blessings Brother
Thanks jugghead :HeartThrob:
IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30. God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.
Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26."
IT IS WELL WITH MY SOUL – HORATIO STAFFORD
Though trials should come, let this blessed assurance control, that Christ has regarded my helpless estate, and shed His own blood for my soul.
Quote from: marie glen on January 10, 2018, 03:23:00 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 09, 2018, 05:41:06 AM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
Quote from: darryl on January 09, 2018, 07:59:09 PM
is it truly 'justice' to punish people endlessly, forever ?....to create or allow a person to come into existence all the while knowing that person will experience eternal misery...so, on top of all the oceans of scarlet blood spilt in wars etc since human kind appeared on earth...on top of all the pain, agony and turmoil people have experienced, both physical and mental..on top of all this, countless millions will be cast into 'hell' to suffer forever ?....
I never really took the hell, or angry God story to be true. I was 'lucky' to not be raised in it, and perhaps to have a problem with authority figures, so I never took to church. Though I did think for a short time there might be literal 'children of satan', so evil they would perish forever. But that was ridiculous and it echoed every hatred there'd ever been.. I liked reading the post on the second link, of the guy who reasoned it out. These stories and accounts certainly show the truth of we can discern something's worth by its fruit! How sad.. It's very true too that it has led to a lot of atheism. And I think, a lot of atheist folks who, ironically, seem to hate God.. But of course it's that more satanic type 'god'... :doh: :faint:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 09, 2018, 05:41:06 AM
a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Amen. :iagree: ..That is 100% true. :dsunny: :cloud9: I believe God's Word is permeated with UR. The 'wrong way' leads to destruction and ruin, but there's no "forever" about it! The translators ran with it. Over and over. But sometimes nowadays, I think a lot of Christians don't really take the hell bit seriously..( :dontknow: ) But then they don't let their selves care too much about others, lest it turn out to be literally true after all. (Which thank God, we know to be merely an insane idea! Truly.) And then of course there's other folks who are just plain horribly mean. Or maybe they're deranged. Yes, it is a form of derangement..
Thanks for the chance to rant a bit! I've gotten much more outspoken about UR these days, too.
yes, u may not have been raised in the concept of 'eternal hell' but, as u no doubt know, the evangelical church in the USA is permeated with the 'eternal hell' belief...in fact, the belief in an 'eternal hell' is one of the pillars of faith in most evangelical 'born again' type denominations e.g. the Southern Baptists, the Assemblies of God, etc etc etc. So, one inevitably comes up against this belief in eternal punishment if one is involved in the USA evangelical church in any way. As you live in the States I'm sure u know this already...however, am I right in understanding you do not attend church ?...especially an evangelical church ?.If so, you may not have come up against it. :dsunny:
ITCHING EARS
Sometimes believers in eternal torment and annihilation like to say that 2Tim. 4:3&4 about a time coming when people will have "itching ears" and will turn to believing myths or fables, refers to believers in universal salvation.
But I think it refers to believers in eternal torment and annihilation instead because most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation.
ETers and ANers like to have their itching ears scratched by listening to sermons based on the myth or fable that only people who believe like they do before they die are going to avoid suffering forever in "hell" or be annihilated.
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Quote from: darryl on January 15, 2018, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: marie glen on January 10, 2018, 03:23:00 AM
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 09, 2018, 05:41:06 AM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
Quote from: darryl on January 09, 2018, 07:59:09 PM
is it truly 'justice' to punish people endlessly, forever ?....to create or allow a person to come into existence all the while knowing that person will experience eternal misery...so, on top of all the oceans of scarlet blood spilt in wars etc since human kind appeared on earth...on top of all the pain, agony and turmoil people have experienced, both physical and mental..on top of all this, countless millions will be cast into 'hell' to suffer forever ?....
I never really took the hell, or angry God story to be true. I was 'lucky' to not be raised in it, and perhaps to have a problem with authority figures, so I never took to church. Though I did think for a short time there might be literal 'children of satan', so evil they would perish forever. But that was ridiculous and it echoed every hatred there'd ever been.. I liked reading the post on the second link, of the guy who reasoned it out. These stories and accounts certainly show the truth of we can discern something's worth by its fruit! How sad.. It's very true too that it has led to a lot of atheism. And I think, a lot of atheist folks who, ironically, seem to hate God.. But of course it's that more satanic type 'god'... :doh: :faint:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 09, 2018, 05:41:06 AM
a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Amen. :iagree: ..That is 100% true. :dsunny: :cloud9: I believe God's Word is permeated with UR. The 'wrong way' leads to destruction and ruin, but there's no "forever" about it! The translators ran with it. Over and over. But sometimes nowadays, I think a lot of Christians don't really take the hell bit seriously..( :dontknow: ) But then they don't let their selves care too much about others, lest it turn out to be literally true after all. (Which thank God, we know to be merely an insane idea! Truly.) And then of course there's other folks who are just plain horribly mean. Or maybe they're deranged. Yes, it is a form of derangement..
Thanks for the chance to rant a bit! I've gotten much more outspoken about UR these days, too.
yes, u may not have been raised in the concept of 'eternal hell' but, as u no doubt know, the evangelical church in the USA is permeated with the 'eternal hell' belief...in fact, the belief in an 'eternal hell' is one of the pillars of faith in most evangelical 'born again' type denominations e.g. the Southern Baptists, the Assemblies of God, etc etc etc. So, one inevitably comes up against this belief in eternal punishment if one is involved in the USA evangelical church in any way. As you live in the States I'm sure u know this already...however, am I right in understanding you do not attend church ?...especially an evangelical church ?.If so, you may not have come up against it. :dsunny:
Agreed! :dsunny:
Interesting to me, though, is that those who speak about hell are called Pharisees, and those who speak against it are worse than unbelievers.
Quote from: darryl on January 15, 2018, 11:16:42 PM
yes, u may not have been raised in the concept of 'eternal hell' but, as u no doubt know, the evangelical church in the USA is permeated with the 'eternal hell' belief...in fact, the belief in an 'eternal hell' is one of the pillars of faith in most evangelical 'born again' type denominations e.g. the Southern Baptists, the Assemblies of God, etc etc etc. So, one inevitably comes up against this belief in eternal punishment if one is involved in the USA evangelical church in any way. As you live in the States I'm sure u know this already...however, am I right in understanding you do not attend church ?...especially an evangelical church ?.If so, you may not have come up against it. :dsunny:
I don't attend church.. I used to feel a little 'guilty' to not do so.. but I always found myself 'conforming'.. then I wasn't me anymore.. idk, it made me very uncomfortable, I felt like a phoney.. but was likely for that reason, rather than because of doctrine or attitude I disagreed with.. though there was that too.
I did enjoy worshiping with others, but I didn't stay involved with the church(es) very long. Now I'm glad I let myself come away from the churches. It's been a freedom. I do come across it (ET/ECT) a lot on the world wide web though!! :faint: Which is shocking to me, as it's so totally lacking in any sort of logic.. I don't care how 'they' try.. I believe the hell myth keeps people from being able to "believe" and is in part responsible for the rise of atheism in what used to be called Christendom.. In place of church, over the years, I've thought of my home and our humble acre as a sort of monastery (I have a blog about it "
listening to God in the silence" https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/ ) for the pursuit of God. ...monastery, just in my own mind of course :laughing7:
J. Preston Eby
TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT
My wife Helen and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Quote from: marie glen on January 16, 2018, 10:32:55 PM
I believe the hell myth keeps people from being able to "believe" and is in part responsible for the rise of atheism in what used to be called Christendom..
:iagree:
Quote from: Patinak on January 17, 2018, 06:19:22 AM
Quote from: marie glen on January 16, 2018, 10:32:55 PM
I believe the hell myth keeps people from being able to "believe" and is in part responsible for the rise of atheism in what used to be called Christendom..
:iagree:
:iagree: :2thumbs:
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 17, 2018, 05:09:00 AM
J. Preston Eby
TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT
My wife Helen and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub
See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Amen! Snatched out of the fire.. how glorious it will be when the gospel is snatched from the flames.. (I looked over at our woodstove just now and it is full of flames.. and there's only three little logs in there.. I've never seen it do that before.)
I love that how he snatched the book out of the flames.. And I'm thankful he did!
Amen, necessary reading..!
John 3:16
DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ARE NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larsen
"Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas."
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?" http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
Responses to
"I guess God was joking and did not really mean it...
...when He said:"
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Shall not be in a state of being lost (apollumi), but shall have life during the ages which collectively come to an end. Heb. 9:26.
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
They will lose it for the eons but will find it again when the eons collectively end Heb. 9:26
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Instead of being forgiven, they will suffer the consequences. But the consequences are age-during, not eternal.
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will restore all destroyed souls when death is abolished. 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Believers have life pertaining to the ages which collectively come to an end. Christ rejecters will receive kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) Matt 25:46.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Both in terms of duration and intensity God will administer just the right amount of kolasis aionios to everyone who needs it. Matt. 25:46.
I love how we know that the fire is a good thing now and not to be feared , but dissolves all the elements of dead works !! Our carnal natures fear the flames and the fire and Light of all the bad things done in the darkness and ignorance against Him ,That come to an end , the night is far spent as we see the DAY of dawn approaching , being the children of Love , Light and Life .Gods children .
Come to the Light and Life are so the righteousness of GOD rises forth out of the flames of fire purifying the souls that are joined to the HOLY SPIRIT and fire of GODS consuming LOVE ever embracing us as His nature rises up from the smoke of death being consumed in us :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Hell is the grave , that we hear His voice and rise up and walk in the Spirit of Life from ! :HeartThrob:
The rod of correction is knowing HE RULES perfectly and everything and everyone will be perfect as Him in the end !!GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL ! We praise God always for what HE is doing .. :banana: :banana: :banana:
JOSEPH PRINCE
Response to Joseph Prince who claims to have "dismantled" universal salvation in sixty seconds.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Allinadam.html
JUDAS
Here is why the case of Judas does not disprove universal salvation.
Because of the betrayal of Judas, Jesus was introduced to the woe of extreme suffering. It would have been better for Jesus if Judas had not been born.
Greek scholar Louis Abbott wrote:
"Let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
MORE COMMENTARY ON JUDAS
"But what about Judas Iscariot? Doesn't it say it would have been better if he'd never been born?
Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!" It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus (the Son of Mankind/Him) if Judas (that man) had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39
Concerning Judas' title, "son of destruction", John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being "lost", "destroyed" or "perished". It is unwise to assume the word describes "eternal damnation". "For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi)." Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons,
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
The eons of the eons – Joseph E. Kirk - Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20; 1 Tim.1:17; 2Tim.4:18; Heb.13:21; 1 Pet.4:11; 5:11; Rev.1:6; 4:9,10; 5:13,14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5 (for ever and ever); Rev.1:18 (for evermore). A comparison of Rev.11:14,15 with 1 Cor.15:27,28 makes it clear that the expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of eons. Christ reigns for "the eons of the eons" after which He delivers up the Kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject that God may be all in all.
HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of the eons of the eons which is mistranslated "forever and ever."
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the eons of the eons must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal continues."
EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for the eons of the eons."
SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JAMES CORAM
"The use of 'forever and ever' instead of the accurate rendering 'for the eons of the eons,' is a gross mistranslation. Most translators simply lacked the insight to see the point of many of the passages that speak of the eons. Since they were able, however, to make sense of these passages by translating by 'everlasting' or 'eternal,' they simply went ahead and did so, any resultant problems notwithstanding. Due to a lack of sensible thinking it was impossible for them to face the fact that the usual translations of this word are quite mistaken and extremely harmful!"
James Coram
THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
THE KING JAMES IS WRONG
God says what the Greek says, not what the interpreted versions say.
God says what the literal translations say.
There are several dozen Greek scholars who agree with John Wesley Hanson that the KJV is wrong.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
"By examining the texts of the Greek manuscripts we find the word AIONIOS or AGE LASTING in place of the word eternal of the King James version. AIONIOS the adjective modifies its noun AION or AGE and means lasting during the AGE, or AGE-LASTING.
For that meticulous student of the Word of God that was penned by the inspired writers, I am including this concordance of the Greek noun AION and its adjective AIONIOS for your reference in your studies of the mistranslations of the King James version versus the text of the Greek manuscripts."
THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE & GARY AMIRAULT
"Christian leaders have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is 'the inerrant' translation of the so-called original texts. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years, and there have been thousands of corrections!
This world need to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Read the prophets and you will not find a place of eternal torment for the wicked. If the Creator loved us and created such a horrible place, He would surely have plastered the warning everywhere. The KJV has the phrase 'everlasting punishment' only once. Yet, when looking at these word in the Greek, even these two references turn out to be 'age-during correction.' Again we ask, if eternal torment be the horrible fate of most of mankind, why such a little warning?
The Scriptures tell us the mind of man cannot conceive the height, length, depth, and width of our Father's love for His creation. His ways are much higher than our in all areas, including His justice, love, and wisdom. He wounds, but like a doctor, to bring about healing. He says 'Vengeance is Mine' knowing only He can return good for evil, an innocent life for a guilty one. He overcomes His enemies with good and tells you to do the same. His love never fails. Believe it. It will never fail anyone, including you. You can now enter into your rest. 'For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth, of things in the heavens (Col. 1:20).
THE REAL GOSPEL (GOOD NEWS) – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
gr8 stuff, as per usual, Rodger...I especially apreciate this present topic...that of 'the Ages of the Ages'...too many hellists see this as denoting 'eternal torment'....as your links show, it means no such thing.
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
"While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!.. It's much more apparent when seeking to see the whole picture, and not chopped up into doctrinal boxes..
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL GO TO HEAVEN
A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness.
But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Psalms130;3 If YOUO'LORD kept a record of sins.....O'Lord WHO COULD STAND? But with YOU there is forgiveness.
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
C.S. Lewis wrote, "The greatest surprise for Satan will happen when he learns he has been doing the will of God all along."
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
A BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.
Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.
How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?
Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."
THE LAST CHAPTER IN THE BIBLE
RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all.
The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
LEMMINGS
The lot of lemmings – Martin Zender
"Lemmings are rodents that supposedly run
off cliffs together, committing mass suicide.
This is what happens, metaphorically,
to members of religious sects. Because
they are continually surrounded by
each other, and mindlessly accept whatever
they are taught by institutionally
trained "experts," they get the sense that
they are "all right." And yet they are not.
They are simply all wrong at the same
time and in the same place.
One of the largest religious sects, Christianity,
is so deceived that it thinks its members
are the only ones who will be with
God for eternity. This sort of exclusivity
(the eternal variety) is a sure sign of
religious sectarianism.
The common lot of humanity is death.
But—thanks to Christ—the common lot of
humanity is also eternal life. The difference
between those who believe truth and
those who don't is timing; it is a difference
of when each person emerges from death,
into life. Those who believe now emerge
early; they live—and some of them reign
with Christ—for two future eons. The rest
of humankind remain dead until the great
white throne judgment. After this judgment,
some go to the new earth as mortals,
some to the second death. When the second
death is abolished, however, all will
have eternal life.
For now, the mass of humanity—religious
and otherwise—is rushing over the cliff of
death. The only thing able to stop this tide
is the miracle of God-given faith. For now,
God gives faith to few. Later, He will give
it to all.
If you have escaped lemminghood, thank God."
Pictures on the wall
Recall the days of glory
Like an echo in a hallway
Remembering that its gone
Our faded history
Changes as we roll along
Our prophets dead and buried
Like an old forgotten song
But every day another new plan rises from the dust
Then just returns to ashes
Nothing lost but some of us
But whos to say that it should turn out
Any other way
Are we just a bunch of lemmings
Searchin for a brighter day?
We keep walkin thru these halls of madness
Wonderin if we're seein what we believe in
Leaning on those walls,
Walls of human sadness
Cant open the door
But wont put the key in.
A giant gleaming city
Rises from the desert
Like some big tower of Babel
Rising up against the sky
But down in the alleys
No one speaks the same language
And the homeless fill the gutters
As the blessed just glide by
But every day another new plan rises from the dust
Then just returns to ashes
Nothing lost but some of us
But whos to say that it should turn out
Any other way
Are we just a bunch of lemmings
Searchin for a brighter day?
Quote from: eaglesway on February 03, 2018, 05:38:53 AM
Pictures on the wall
Recall the days of glory
Like an echo in a hallway
Remembering that its gone
Our faded history
Changes as we roll along
Our prophets dead and buried
Like an old forgotten song
But every day another new plan rises from the dust
Then just returns to ashes
Nothing lost but some of us
But whos to say that it should turn out
Any other way
Are we just a bunch of lemmings
Searchin for a brighter day?
We keep walkin thru these halls of madness
Wonderin if we're seein what we believe in
Leaning on those walls,
Walls of human sadness
Cant open the door
But wont put the key in.
A giant gleaming city
Rises from the desert
Like some big tower of Babel
Rising up against the sky
But down in the alleys
No one speaks the same language
And the homeless fill the gutters
As the blessed just glide by
But every day another new plan rises from the dust
Then just returns to ashes
Nothing lost but some of us
But whos to say that it should turn out
Any other way
Are we just a bunch of lemmings
Searchin for a brighter day?
Beautiful. :thumbsup:
Is this a song that you wrote?
Yea, LOL, in 1979. No matter how things change, they still remain the same.
Vanity of Vanities saith the preacher ;o)
THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC – DR. LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD
The following is my all-time favorite quote. I've had it memorized for many years and I quote it frequently. As a staunch universalist, Dr. Leslie Weatherhead meant it to include everyone without exception, after everyone who needs it experiences kolasis aionion, or age-during corrective chastisement.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
A POEM BY WIILIAM WORDSWORTH (1770-1850)
One adequate support
For the calamities of mortal life
Exists, one only; - an assured belief
That the procession of our fate, howe'er
Sad or disturbed, is ordered by a being
Of infinite benevolence and power,
Whose everlasting purposes embrace
All accidents, converting them to good.
Alexander von Humboldt (1767-1835) wrote
"The conviction, arising from a firm confidence in Almighty goodness and justice – that death is only the termination of an imperfect state of being, whose purpose cannot be fully carried out here, and that it is the passage to a better and higher condition, should be so constantly present to us, that nothing should be able to obscure it, even for a moment; it is the groundwork of inner peace, and of the loftiest endeavors, and is an inexhaustible spring of comfort in affliction."
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
WHAT IF WE ARE WRONG
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Appendix5.html
LOVE WINS
Here is an analogy that I got from Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
A man courts a lady by continually expressing his love for her week after week, both verbally, and by bringing her gifts.
If he stops trying to persuade her to marry him, he loses everything.
But if he never stops trying to convince her until she says yes, then he goes to her place, gathers up all the gifts he gave her AND HER, and takes them back to his place for the rest of their lives.
Human love sometimes fails to elicit a loving response, but God's divine love is not hampered by the limitations of human love.
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
LOVE WINS
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:
The age following The Great White Throne Judgment is sometimes called by theologians 'the age of consummation,' or 'the age of Jubilee,' or 'the age of the New Heaven and New Earth.'
By the time that age has ended, all fallen creatures will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.' (Alexander Thompson's translation)
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
'This is life eternal' should be 'the life of the ages,' i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The 'eternal covenant' is the 'covenant of the ages,' the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The 'eternal purpose' is really the purpose of 'the ages,' i.e. developed and worked out in 'the ages.'
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ's work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages 'cometh the end' when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
:hithere: Amen! :banana:
Quote
Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
Whereas Christendom has the habitual idea that it's this life, then eternity, so at death one goes up or down.. But "the pit" - the grave - but also the abyss.. bottomless abyss is the potential of sin (imperfection, evil), not a 'hell'.
By examining more closely the Revelation chapters which (briefly) speak of the 'Day' of Judgment (DOA for the doa?) i think we can spy three ages.. The millennium - which many confuse.. think the resurrection of all those not yet saved occurs during or before the millenium rule of Jesus on Earth.. the Earth not yet made new!
Anyway, they get them confused.. (Two ages, then, New Jerusalem, Earth and all things made new age, all vivified when all things made new.. but born again sooner? Faith during the previous to this age? I mean by that 'day' who's not going to "believe" what they are seeing.) [Jesus return/1st resurrection and millenium - 2nd resurrection "the rest of the dead" (doa)/'Day' of Judgment/LoL - as WW calls it (LoF) - The New Jerusalem, throne of God, and Yhvh Himself, who will now tabernacle, tent and dwell with man upon Earth made new.. all things having been made new (and pristine :cloud9: ).
("The rest of the dead do not rise until after the 1000 years"). The key is the scripture(s) of course.
But some do recognize some sort of ages after our common era. (Hooray! hope it spreads!) I'm pretty convinced, which some may have noticed here, that the pattern is set forth in the pattern of the Autumn Holy Days of Leviticus chapter 23.
oh dear, I was only going to post the quote.. :blah:
Quote
Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
MARTIN LUTHER
I like what Martin Luther said: "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
In the conclusion of THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL, Martin Luther wrote
""Even according to the testimony of reason herself there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!"
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#conc
MISCELLANEOUS QUOTES
"Now in the same manner as God has converted so many to Himself
without destroying their liberty, He can undoubtedly convert whole
nations, or the whole world. And it is as easy to Him to convert a
world as one individual soul." - John Wesley
"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not
want free-will to be given me....But now that God has taken my salvation
out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of
His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running,
but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable
certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is
also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him
or pluck me from Him." -Martin Luther
"for the power of "free-will" is nil, and it does no good, nor can do,
without grace. It follows, therefore, that "free-will" is obviously a
term applicable only to Divine Majesty; for only He can do, and does
(as the Psalmist sings) "whatever he wills in heaven and earth"
[Psalms 135:6]. If "free-will" is ascribed to men, it is ascribed with
no more propriety than divinity itself would be - and no blasphemy
could exceed that! So it befits theologians to refrain from using the
term when they want to speak of human ability, and to leave it to be
applied to God only." –Martin Luther
"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the
present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be
opportunity to win it in the future... For the opinion that God could
not have created man to be rejected and cast away into eternal torment
is held among us also..." -Martin Luther, letter to Hans von Rechenberg,
1522
"How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the 'free'
will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free
will—that all men should be saved!" - David Nuckols
"He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills,
through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all
conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He
has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the
hardened heart." -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"The healthy man does not torture others." Carl Jung
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." Confucius
"In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be
present." Sir Francis Bacon
"Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls. The most massive
characters are seared with scars." Khalil Gibran
"There can be no good without evil." Russian proverb
"It is a wise father that knows his own child." William Shakespeare
"Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects
revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method
is love." Martin Luther King, Jr.
"I have always found that mercy bears richer fruit than strict
justice." Abraham Lincoln
"There is no lasting hope in violence, only temporary relief from
hopelessness." Kingman Brewster, Jr.
"All humanity is one undivided and indivisible family. I cannot detach
myself from the wickedest soul." Mahatma Ghandi
"Love feels no burden, thinks nothing of its trouble, attempts what is
above its strength, pleads no excuse for impossibility, for it thinks
all things are lawful for itself and all things are possible." Thomas
A. Kempis
"No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for
happiness, the good he seeks." Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley
"What really raises one's indignation against suffering is not
suffering intrinsically, but the senselessness of suffering."
Frederich Nietzsche
"Adversity is like a strong wind. It tears away from us all but the
things that cannot be torn, so that we see ourselves as we truly are."
Arthur Golden
"I'm for truth no matter who tells it. I'm for justice no matter who
it's for or against." Malcolm X
MOTIVATION
Philippians 1:15-18
"Some preach Christ because of envy and strife, and some of good will.
One preaches Christ out of contention, not sincerely, the other out of love.
What then, notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being preached.
And I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."
ETers and ANers preach Christ out of the false motivation that if they don't preach many will suffer forever in "hell" or be annihilated.
But even so, like Paul, I rejoice and, yea, I will rejoice that Christ is being preached.
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT CHRISTIANS VERSUS ETERNAL PUNISHMENT MUSLIMS
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too. And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
That is why they believe they are doing God's work when they make a project out of killing non-Muslim "infidels" if they refuse to convert to Islam.
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
For anyone who is interested, the following is a very informative link
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hell-scholars-corner/
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe.
It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."
God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history. The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time. It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."
Jesus did not speak English, and neither were the scriptures written in English.
Jesus did not ever say the words "eternal life". In John 3:16 Jesus promises eonian life (greek: aionios zoe), which quite literally means something of which the horizon/end-point is not in view, but can more generally have the meaning of "pertaining to an age or ages" ie. age-abiding.
Do not confuse this with the idea of immortality - which is also a promise as shown by Paul in 1 Cor 15: 53-57. This is why all will be alive truly forever. Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted.
It has caused much confusion and travesty due to the way modern Christian tradition has munged the terms "eternal life" and "immortality".
There are many examples where the word eon and its Hebrew counter-part olam simply cannot mean literally "eternal" or "forever", yet the meaning is forced there when it is not warranted.
You can study this for yourself if you wish to honestly understand.
Christian Universalism understands what immortality is and what it means to put it on as scripture defines it. That does not change simply because Jesus was talking about an undetermined period of time.
MY BELIEFS
I'm convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE.
All evil eventually leads to good, however, God is the only One Who can do this. He created evil (Isaiah 45:7), to provide the contrast for good. When all good is revealed, then evil will be abolished from God's universe—forever.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams (GOOD EXPOSITION)
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.
That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by Christian universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I've had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
THE COROLLARY TO MY BELIEFS
For me the corollary to my belief in universal transformation is just as important as the belief itself.
The corollary is that when the chips are down and I am overwhelmed by life's negatives to the point where I can't make my wonderful theology work for me in a practical way, yet even that sorry state of affairs is something that God will eventually transform into something better for me that it temporarily prevailed.
A very fine overview of
Quote from: rodgertutt on February 23, 2018, 05:02:44 AM
MY BELIEFS
I'm convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE.
All evil eventually leads to good, however, God is the only One Who can do this. He created evil (Isaiah 45:7), to provide the contrast for good. When all good is revealed, then evil will be abolished from God's universe—forever.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams (GOOD EXPOSITION)
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.
That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by Christian universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I've had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
THE COROLLARY TO MY BELIEFS
For me the corollary to my belief in universal transformation is just as important as the belief itself.
The corollary is that when the chips are down and I am overwhelmed by life's negatives to the point where I can't make my wonderful theology work for me in a practical way, yet even that sorry state of affairs is something that God will eventually transform into something better for me that it temporarily prevailed.
A very fine perspective on so many aspects of God's goodness and wonderful plan. Our words can not do justice of our inner most feelings for His unfathomable love. Thanks Rodger
Rom_8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Very well said RT,
just in the past few days, some things have come back to the forefront of my mind which relate to everything you just said.
Don't have time to post them all here at this time (being late and need some sleep) but will under "tidbits of Jugghead" this weekend
have wanted to write about these things for quite some time and you (RT) have provided the opportunity to do so
Blessings to all
MYTHS - Kenneth Larsen
"...they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4
Scripture: "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
Myth: "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
Scripture: "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20, 21.
Myth: "Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest."
Scripture: "...Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him..." "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
Myth: "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
Scripture: "For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." Romans 11:32
Myth: "It was Lucifer's doing, and Adam's. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins."
Scripture: "and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.
Myth: "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
THE NARROW DOOR AND MANY CALLED BUT FEW CHOSEN
The language is entirely confined to the present.
"Lord, are there few that be 'saved'?" The literal rendering is: "Are those being saved few?" The question relates entirely to the number then, at that time that were entering the narrow door and accepting Christ. Also, many were called to accept Christ through the apostolic preaching of that time period, but few were chosen by way of their acceptance of that call.
What it does not mean is that anyone will suffer eternal torment or be annihilated;
because we know that sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
NOT EVERYONE – Matt. 7:21
If these words were taken literally, then no one at all would enter the kingdom of Heaven because, at least for a period of time EVERYONE doesn't do the will of the Father.
According to Rom. 3:10-18 EVERYONE starts out in the condition described in those verses.
All that Jesus meant by that statement is that NO UNREPENTANT SINNER will ever enter the kingdom of Heaven.
But we know that a time is coming when there will be no unrepentant sinners left in existence.
We know this because God "will have all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html
125 NUTS
In my opinion, this book blows the theological ship of the Calvinists clean out of the water.
A snippet from 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
(another book in my hard copy UR library)
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
And IMO, C.R. does a very good job of pointing out the inconsistency of the Calvinist interpretation of Scripture."
OPPOSERS REFUTED
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
SIX WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER?
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
WHAT JESUS REALLY TAUGHT ABOUT "HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/answering-matt-slick's-article-against-universalism/msg28882/#msg28882
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
OUR HEAVENLY FATHER
According to Jesus, by nature, we are children of the devil (John 8:44).
But over and above that are the words that Jesus spoke to the multitude.
"For One is your Father, Who is in heaven." (Matt. 23:1&9).
As sinners, by attitude and actions we demonstrate that we are children of the devil.
But by right of creation, and by right of redemption through Jesus Christ, God is the Heavenly Father of everyone, even Satan (Col. 1:20).
For Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole kosmos (Greek). (1John 2:2)
Sooner or later, according to His perfect timing for each individual, God will effectively call everyone out of darkness into His marvelous light, first the chosen generation, then all the rest later. (1Peter 2:9; Col. 1:20)
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
Amen! "Nothing is impossible with God.." (Jeremiah..)
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 05, 2018, 02:50:44 PM
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
:thanks: I'm reading that now, thanks!
PAUL
The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.
Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul's will "free."
But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that "the sin that dwelt within him" (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul's will in his war with his sinful nature.
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 05, 2018, 02:50:44 PM
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
The best question (imo) this article points out is - Where did the Jews get their myths about a 'hell'? It wasn't in their Book! But by time the days of Jesus.. there the myth was.. (in their other writings, etc.) So if not from the Old Testament, where did they get it? I remember learning in school how (it seemed to me) at one time Hebrew scholars were very contemporary with Greek and Roman scholars..
Very interesting article.
I've always wondered too why the earliest myths seem to place the total 'afterlife' under the earth or within the earth.. But it seems now natural as - what other places did the earliest folks have? (To think about.) And so to this day.. the place of mythical 'hell' is thought to be under or within the earth. Which as they think the LOF is hell (even though it/ the grave, is thrown into the LOF) no where does it say there is a lake of torment within the earth.. Very crafty actually.. some must have been quite excited when science determined there's fire inside the planet!
In Babylon, as we know they worshiped the 'moving stars' in the night sky and sun and moon, which is why they built Babel Tower to reach the stars in the heavens..
It seems not hard to see an eventual blending of the Egyptian and the Babylonian favorite ideas..
And how Yhvh called Abraham out of all that...
Also seems to be a link between the "the 'gods' will get you" if you misbehave and how some view the Father in heaven to this day..
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
Kenneth Larsen and James Coram
"Everlasting destruction" would mean that they cease to exist. However, that terminology wasn't used by any of the prophets. I didn't make up universal reconciliation. It has strong Bible support.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20and many other texts that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire.
Questions Without Answers
The questions were written by A. C. Thomas and appeared in a book by E. H. Lake, entitled "The Key to Truth".
Now the Questions:
1. As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)
2. If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?
3. Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?
4. As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?
5. If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)
6. As "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)
7. As "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)
8. As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)
9. Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?
10. If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?
11. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
12. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)
13. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
14. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?
15. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)
16. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?
17. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)
18. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?
19. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?
20. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)
21. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)
22. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?
23. Can that be just which is not merciful?
24. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?
25. Can that be merciful which is not just?
26. Does divine justice demand the infliction of pain from which mercy recoils?
27. Does divine mercy require any thing that justice refuses to grant?
28. If the demands of divine justice are opposed to the requirements of mercy, is not God divided against Himself?
29. If the requirements of mercy are opposed to the demands of the justice of God, can His kingdom stand? -- (Mark 3:24)
30. If the justice and mercy of God are any way opposed, do they "keep the unity of the spirit in the bonds of peace?'
31. If justice and mercy are opposed to their requirements can Deity be a just God and a Savior? -- (Isaiah 14:21)
32. If "a God all mercy is a God unjust," would not a God all justice be a God unmerciful?
33. Is there any such thing in God as unjust mercy, or unmerciful justice?
34. Is there any such thing in God as just cruelty, or merciful injustice?
35. If you had sufficient power would you not deliver all men from sin?
36. Are you more merciful than the God Who made you?
37. 'Can a woman forget her sucking child?'
38. Is the Creator of human sympathy less benevolent than the creature?
39. If God WOULD save all men, but CANNOT, is He infinite in power?
40. If God CAN save all men, but WILL NOT, is He infinite in goodness?
41. Does God DESIRE the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:3-4)
42. As God is righteous, must not the desire for universal salvation be a RIGHTEOUS desire?
43. Is it true, that "the desire of the righteous shall be granted?" -- (Prov. 10:24)
44. Did God design universal salvation when He created man?
45. Will God carry His original design into execution?
46. Can finite man frustrate the purposes of the Almighty?
47. Is every individual under obligation to be thankful for his existence?
48. Will this obligation eternally continue?
49. Can any one be thankful for that which, on the whole, is not a blessing?
50. If any one be rendered endlessly miserable, will he be still under obligation to thank God for existence?
51. Would endless misery benefit the Almighty, as the INFLICTOR?
52. Would endless misery benefit the saints, as SPECTATORS?
53. Would endless misery benefit the sinner, as the SUFFERER?
54. If endless punishment be the "wages of sin," could the sinner ever receive payment in full? (Rom. 6:23)
55. As man is a finite being, can he commit an infinite sin?
56. If man cannot commit an infinite sin, can he deserve endless punishment?
57. If one sin be infinite, can a million be any more?
58. If ONE sin be NOT infinite, can a million of sins amount to an infinite sin?
59. If sin be infinite, can one sin be greater than the other?
60. If sin be infinite, can it be true that, "where sin abounded grace did MUCH MORE abound?" --(Rom. 5:20)
61. If sin be infinite, can it ever be finished or brought to an end?
62. If ONE sin deserves an eternity of punishment, how much punishment will TEN sins deserve?
63. Do you ardently DESIRE the salvation of all men?
64. Is it true that God "openeth his hand and satisfieth the desire of every living thing?" -- (Ps. 145:16)
65. Do you fervently PRAY for the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:1)
66. Do you pray in FAITH, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)
67. Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)
68. Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
69. If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
70. Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?
71. Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?
72. Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
73. As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
74. If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
75. Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
76. Can God WILL anything contrary to His knowledge?
77. Did God know when He created man, that a part of His creatures would be endlessly miserable?
78. If God, when He created, did not know the result of creation, is He infinite in knowledge?
79. Power is the ability to do: is knowledge simply the ability to know?
80. If God knew when He created man, that some would be eternally wretched, did He not will this to be their doom?
81. If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4)
82. If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we safely infer that a part might be saved?
83. If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely infer that a part may be damned?
84. If God made an endless hell before He created man, did He know there would be any use for it?
85. If God knew there would be use for an endless hell, must He not have created some men for endless misery?
86. If God made an endless hell, was it included in the works which He pronounced "very good?" -- (Gen. 1:31)
87. If there be an endless hell, and it was not made before the creation of men, when was it made?
88. If there be a personal devil, who made him?
89. Can there be any such thing as sin in heaven?
90. If there was sin in heaven, many not sin be committed there again?
91. If an angel of light became a devil, was not Paul in error, when he said Satan is transformed into an angel of light? -- (2 Cor 11:14)
92. As sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who tempted a holy angel to sin?
93. If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us?
94. If a holy angel was tempted to sin by surrounding evil, is heaven a holy place?
95. If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?
96. If an angel became a devil by sinning, was Adam's the original sin?
97. If Adam became mortal (that is, subject to death,) by sinning, must he not have been created immortal?
98. If Adam had been created immortal, could he ever have died?
99. If Adam sinned without inheriting total depravity, why should inborn depravity be assigned as the cause of our sins?
100. Would there be any more impropriety in imputing MY sins to Adam, than in imputing HIS sins to ME?
101. If men are totally depraved by nature, must not children be so likewise?
102. If children be totally depraved, is it true, that "of such is the kingdom of heaven?" -- (Mark 10:14)
103. Men are to be washed from their sins. If they are totally depraved, what is there to wash?
104. If evil men and seducers "wax worse and worse," (2 Tim. 3:13), can they be totally depraved at first?
105. If human reason be "carnal and delusive," why did Jehovah say, "come now and let us REASON together?" -- (Isa. 1:18)
106. If reason be delusive, why should some folks reason against the use of reason?
107. Can an effect exist without a cause sufficiently powerful to produce it?
108. If "we love God because he first loved us," is it true that we must first love HIM before He will love us?
109. If "we love God because he first loved us," is it not plain that He loved US when we did not love HIM?
110. If God loved US when we did not love HIM, is not our love to Him the EFFECT (and not the CAUSE) of His love to US?
111. Was it consistent with divine justice, to love us, when we did not love Him?
112. If God once loved us, will not that love eternally continue?
113. If the love of God is the cause which produces love in man, can anger and wrath produce the same effect?
114. Is it the revealed will of God that all men should be saved?
115. Can God will all men to be saved, knowing that a part will be forever lost?
116. If God has two wills, why is double-mindedness condemned in the Scriptures?
117. If God has two wills, why does the Bible say, "He is of one mind?"
118. If God has a secret will, how did you gain a knowledge of it?
119. Can that be a secret which has been revealed?
120. If God revealed His secret will to "the saints," why should they reveal it to "the wicked?"
121. If God under any circumstances, wills the endless misery of a human soul, in what does He differ from Satan?
122. Can Jesus Christ be the Savior of any more than He actually saves?
123. Can Jesus be "the Savior of the world," (1 John 4:14), if the world is not saved by him?
124. Is Christ, in any sense, the Savior of unbelievers?
125. If Christ be in no sense the Savior of unbelievers, why are unbelievers called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior?
126. If unbelievers are not called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior, what are they to believe?
127. Must not the thing to be believed, be true before it is believed?
128. Must not the thing to be believed continue to be true, whether it be believed or disbelieved?
129. "What if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith, [or faithfulness] of God of none effect?" -- (Rom. 3:3)
130. Is it true that "God hath concluded all in unbelief that he might have mercy on all?" -- (Rom 9:32)
131. Can God be "especially the Savior of them who believe," unless He be actually the Savior of all? -- (1 Tim. 4:10)
132. If belief and good works in this life, be essential to eternal salvation in the next, can infants be saved?
133. Can the good actions of finite man merit an infinite reward?
134. Can the evil actions of finite man merit infinite punishment?
135. If men are saved by works, is salvation of grace?
136. If one man is saved by grace, why should not all be saved in like manner?
137. Is God a partial being?
138. Can the faith of the Partialists be based in the wisdom that is "full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality?" -- (James 3:17)
139. Can sufficient provision be made for the salvation of all men, if some men are never saved?
140. Must not sufficient provision be sufficient to subdue the will of the creature?
141. Is there any other way to determine the sufficiency of the means employed, than by the accomplishment of the end designed?
142. Does not the law of God require all men to love him supremely, and their neighbors as themselves?
143. Is it true, that "not one jot or tittle of this law shall pass till all be fulfilled?" -- (Matt. 5:18)
144. Does not justice require of us the fulfilment of the law of God?
145. Will not justice be eternally violated, if the law of God be not universally fulfilled?
146. Can they fulfil the law of love who are rendered eternally miserable?
147. Can justice require the obedience of the sinner, and at the same time require his eternal disobedience?
148. If whoso "offereth praise glorifieth God," (Ps. 1:23), can He be glorified by those who have no cause to praise Him?
149. If any one be rendered eternally miserable, can he have any cause to praise His Maker?
150. Will God ever place some of his creatures in such a situation they cannot praise him?
151. Do you believe that endless punishment would manifest the glory of God?
152. Can you rejoice in the hope of the glory of God?
153. Would not the salvation of half of mankind glorify God more than the salvation of one-fourth?
154. Would not the salvation of nine-tenths of mankind glorify God more than the salvation of one-half?
155. Can we give "glory to God in the highest," without believing in the salvation of all men?
156. If "all have sinned, and (thus) come short of the glory of God," (Rom. 3:23), would eternal sinning mend the matter?
157. Shall "every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father?" -- (Philippians 2:11)
158. Is endless misery "good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people?"
159. Could man be endlessly miserable without being endlessly a sinner?
160. If sin exist eternally, can it be true that Christ was to finish the transgression, and to make and end of sin? -- (Dan. 9:34)
161. As Jesus gave himself a ransom for all men, can he ever "see the travail of his soul and be satisfied," if endless misery be true?
162. Do you hope that endless misery is true?
163. Is "faith the substance (or foundation) of things hoped for?" -- (Heb. 11:1)
164. If endless misery be not a thing hoped for, can it be a part of the Christian faith?
165. Is it certain that one soul will be eternally lost?
166. Is it certain that one soul will be saved?
167. Is it certain that all will not be damned?
168. Is it certain that all will not be saved?
169. Can that be certain which is not decreed?
170. If it be certain that one soul will be saved, must there not be a decree concerning the salvation of a definite number?
171. If the number of the saved be definitely fixed, must not the number of the damned be equally definite?
172. If there be no certainty in relation to the final destiny of man, is not salvation a work of chance?
173. What better is chance than Atheism?
174. If God knew, when he created, what the end of each soul would be, is not that end as certain as if it was decreed?
175. Is not the merciful man always merciful to his beast?
176. Will not the merciful God be always as merciful to His creatures, as the merciful man is to his beast?
177. Is it true that the "tender mercies of the Lord are over all his works?" -- (Ps. 145:9)
178. Is it true that the Almighty is without variableness, or the shadow of turning?
179. Would there be any tender mercy in the infliction of endless misery?
180. Are the tender mercies of the Lord like unto the tender mercies of the wicked which are cruel?
181. If God is not the Father of sinners, why should sinners pray, saying, "Our Father, forgive us our trespasses?"
182. "Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?" -- (Mal. 2:10)
183. If God be the Father of all men, will He do less for His children than earthly parents would do for theirs?
184. Is it true that God punishes us "for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness?" -- (Heb. 12:11)
185. Would endless punishment be for our profit?
186. Would endless punishment "yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness unto them who are exercised thereby?"
187. Is there an afterward to eternity? -- (Heb. 7:14)
188. Can any doctrine be too good to be true?
189. Will God contend forever and be always wroth? -- (Isa. 62:16)
190. Will the Lord cast off forever? -- (Lam. 3:31-33)
191. Can he be a Christian who worships the Lord through fear of the devil?
192. Can he be a Christian who affirms that if he believed in the salvation of all men, he would not worship God?
193. Can he be a Christian who inquires, "if all men are to be saved, what use is there in being virtuous?"
194. Some persons say, that if they did not believe in endless punishment, they would take their fill of sin. How much sin would it take to fill a Christian?
195. If "the goodness of God leadeth to repentance," why should His eternal wrath be preached to sinners?
196. If "the goodness of God leadeth to repentance," why should it not be supposed that repentance leadeth to the goodness of God?
197. If "the goodness of God leadeth to repentance," are not the impenitent the objects of His goodness?
198. Is not the goodness of God co-extensive and co-eternal with His wisdom and power?
199. As the wisdom of God can never change to folly, nor His power to weakness, will His goodness ever change to hatred?
200. Can Deity be universally and eternally good, if endless misery be true for a single soul?
201. If all men deserve endless punishment, would it not be right for God to inflict it?
202. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
203. If it would be right for God to punish all men eternally, would it not be wrong for Him hot to do it?
204. As the infliction of endless misery would be returning evil for evil, would it be right for Deity to inflict it?
205. If the return of evil for evil be right in Deity, would it not be equally right in man?
206. As "fear hath torment," and true religion is happiness, can fear produce true religion?
207. As "perfect love casteth out fear," will not fear cast out perfect love?
208. Can fear imbue the soul with perfect love?
209. Must not they who "believe and tremble," be possessed of the faith of devils?
210. Does the belief of endless misery cause the believer to "rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory?" -- (1 Pet. 1:8)
211. Can a belief of any thing short of universal salvation, fill the soul with "joy and peace?"
212. Will not the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)
213. Will not death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)
:gthumbsup:
Blessings Bro Rodger , good post in looking for answers ! some are hard questions for sure! :friendstu: :HeartThrob:
Rose
DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larsen
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.
We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.
To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.
If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan inherited ideas.
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
Oh my goodness righteous people perish!
Does that mean they go to be tormented forever?
Does that mean they don't get eternal life?
How are they spared from evil since they obviously perished?
Perish simply means to be destroyed, to die, to be lost. The actual Greek word is apollymi.
Guess what: Jesus came to save those who are apollymi.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost (apollymi - same word).
So Jesus will save those who perish. How does He do this? By destroying death! When death is finally destroyed, all will be resurrected, and all will be alive! Jesus is life!
JOKING?
I guess God was joking and did not really mean it...
...when He said:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Shall not be in a state of being lost (apollumi), but shall have life during the ages which collectively come to an end. Heb. 9:26.
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
They will lose it for the eons but will find it again when the eons collectively end Heb. 9:26
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Instead of being forgiven, they will suffer the consequences. But the consequences are age-during, not eternal.
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will restore all destroyed souls when death is abolished. 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Believers have life pertaining to the ages which collectively come to an end. Christ rejecters will receive kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) Matt 25:46.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Both in terms of duration and intensity God will administer just the right amount of kolasis aionios to everyone who needs it. Matt. 25:46.
:banana:
JOSEPH PRINCE
Response to Joseph Prince who claims to have "dismantled" universal salvation in sixty seconds.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Allinadam.html
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 12, 2018, 01:22:58 PM
JOKING?
I guess God was joking and did not really mean it...
...when He said:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Shall not be in a state of being lost (apollumi), but shall have life during the ages which collectively come to an end. Heb. 9:26.
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
They will lose it for the eons but will find it again when the eons collectively end Heb. 9:26
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Instead of being forgiven, they will suffer the consequences. But the consequences are age-during, not eternal.
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will restore all destroyed souls when death is abolished. 1 Cor. 15:20-28
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Believers have life pertaining to the ages which collectively come to an end. Christ rejecters will receive kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) Matt 25:46.
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Both in terms of duration and intensity God will administer just the right amount of kolasis aionios to everyone who needs it. Matt. 25:46.
Amen
!! Sin ruins! But not 'for ever'! "God is love" and .."love never fails" "let all be untrue, unfaithful, but He is faithful.." (to "all"! :dsunny: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: )
JUDAS
Here is why the case of Judas does not disprove universal salvation.
Because of the betrayal of Judas, Jesus was introduced to the woe of extreme suffering. It would have been better for Jesus if Judas had not been born.
Greek scholar Louis Abbott wrote:
"Let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
MORE COMMENTARY ON JUDAS
"But what about Judas Iscariot? Doesn't it say it would have been better if he'd never been born?
Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!" It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus (the Son of Mankind/Him) if Judas (that man) had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39
Concerning Judas' title, "son of destruction", John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being "lost", "destroyed" or "perished". It is unwise to assume the word describes "eternal damnation". "For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi)." Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons, the 3 classes of vivification, "hell", and "annihilation".
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
KINGDOM REIGN
The eons of the eons – Joseph E. Kirk - Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20; 1 Tim.1:17; 2Tim.4:18; Heb.13:21; 1 Pet.4:11; 5:11; Rev.1:6; 4:9,10; 5:13,14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5 (for ever and ever); Rev.1:18 (for evermore). A comparison of Rev.11:14,15 with 1 Cor.15:27,28 makes it clear that the expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of eons. Christ reigns for "the eons of the eons" after which He delivers up the Kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject that God may be all in all.
HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of the eons of the eons which is mistranslated "forever and ever."
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the eons of the eons must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal continues."
EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for the eons of the eons."
SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JAMES CORAM
"The use of 'forever and ever' instead of the accurate rendering 'for the eons of the eons,' is a gross mistranslation. Most translators simply lacked the insight to see the point of many of the passages that speak of the eons. Since they were able, however, to make sense of these passages by translating by 'everlasting' or 'eternal,' they simply went ahead and did so, any resultant problems notwithstanding. Due to a lack of sensible thinking it was impossible for them to face the fact that the usual translations of this word are quite mistaken and extremely harmful!"
James Coram
THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."
"Forever and Ever"-- A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
THE KING JAMES IS WRONG
God says what the Greek says, not what the interpreted versions say.
God says what the literal translations say.
There are several dozen Greek scholars who agree with John Wesley Hanson that the KJV is wrong.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
#74 - AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
"By examining the texts of the Greek manuscripts we find the word AIONIOS or AGE LASTING in place of the word eternal of the King James version. AIONIOS the adjective modifies its noun AION or AGE and means lasting during the AGE, or AGE-LASTING.
For that meticulous student of the Word of God that was penned by the inspired writers, I am including this concordance of the Greek noun AION and its adjective AIONIOS for your reference in your studies of the mistranslations of the King James version versus the text of the Greek manuscripts."
THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE & GARY AMIRAULT
"Christian leaders have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is 'the inerrant' translation of the so-called original texts. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years, and there have been thousands of corrections!
This world need to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Read the prophets and you will not find a place of eternal torment for the wicked. If the Creator loved us and created such a horrible place, He would surely have plastered the warning everywhere. The KJV has the phrase 'everlasting punishment' only once. Yet, when looking at these word in the Greek, even these two references turn out to be 'age-during correction.' Again we ask, if eternal torment be the horrible fate of most of mankind, why such a little warning?
The Scriptures tell us the mind of man cannot conceive the height, length, depth, and width of our Father's love for His creation. His ways are much higher than our in all areas, including His justice, love, and wisdom. He wounds, but like a doctor, to bring about healing. He says 'Vengeance is Mine' knowing only He can return good for evil, an innocent life for a guilty one. He overcomes His enemies with good and tells you to do the same. His love never fails. Believe it. It will never fail anyone, including you. You can now enter into your rest. 'For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth, of things in the heavens (Col. 1:20).
THE REAL GOSPEL (GOOD NEWS) – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 18, 2018, 11:25:15 AM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Amen...this is our Hope, our Yearning..it almost seems to good to be true but, interpreted correctly, the Bible teaches it......the Truth of it is staggering...i cannot speak for the Awe of it...the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ truly is that powerful...to save ALL...PRAISE GOD !.
SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL GO TO HEAVEN
A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
C.S. Lewis wrote, "The greatest surprise for Satan will happen when he learns he has been doing the will of God all along."
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
A BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.
Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.
How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?
Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."
THE LAST CHAPTER IN THE BIBLE
RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all. The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
LEMMINGS
The lot of lemmings – Martin Zender
"Lemmings are rodents that supposedly run
off cliffs together, committing mass suicide.
This is what happens, metaphorically,
to members of religious sects. Because
they are continually surrounded by
each other, and mindlessly accept whatever
they are taught by institutionally
trained "experts," they get the sense that
they are "all right." And yet they are not.
They are simply all wrong at the same
time and in the same place.
One of the largest religious sects, Christianity,
is so deceived that it thinks its members
are the only ones who will be with
God for eternity. This sort of exclusivity
(the eternal variety) is a sure sign of
religious sectarianism.
The common lot of humanity is death.
But—thanks to Christ—the common lot of
humanity is also eternal life. The difference
between those who believe truth and
those who don't is timing; it is a difference
of when each person emerges from death,
into life. Those who believe now emerge
early; they live—and some of them reign
with Christ—for two future eons. The rest
of humankind remain dead until the great
white throne judgment. After this judgment,
some go to the new earth as mortals,
some to the second death. When the second
death is abolished, however, all will
have eternal life.
For now, the mass of humanity—religious
and otherwise—is rushing over the cliff of
death. The only thing able to stop this tide
is the miracle of God-given faith. For now,
God gives faith to few. Later, He will give
it to all.
If you have escaped lemminghood, thank God."
THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC – DR. LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD
The following is my all-time favorite quote. I've had it memorized for many years and have quoted it frequently. As a staunch universalist, Dr. Leslie Weatherhead meant it to include everyone without exception, after everyone who needs it experiences kolasis aionion, or age-during corrective chastisement.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
A POEM BY WIILIAM WORDSWORTH (1770-1850)
One adequate support
For the calamities of mortal life
Exists, one only; - an assured belief
That the procession of our fate, howe'er
Sad or disturbed, is ordered by a being
Of infinite benevolence and power,
Whose everlasting purposes embrace
All accidents, converting them to good.
:cloud9:
Alexander von Humboldt (1767-1835) wrote
"The conviction, arising from a firm confidence in Almighty goodness and justice – that death is only the termination of an imperfect state of being, whose purpose cannot be fully carried out here, and that it is the passage to a better and higher condition, should be so constantly present to us, that nothing should be able to obscure it, even for a moment; it is the groundwork of inner peace, and of the loftiest endeavors, and is an inexhaustible spring of comfort in affliction."
Wow. That was so well said. A genuine jewel.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
SEE
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Eight interviews with Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
Copy and paste the links into your browser.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
ENJOY!
WHAT IF WE ARE WRONG
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Appendix5.html
LOVE WINS
Here is an analogy that I got from Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor)
A man courts a lady by continually expressing his love for her week after week, both verbally, and by bringing her gifts.
If he stops trying to persuade her to marry him, he loses everything.
But if he never stops trying to convince her until she says yes, then he goes to her place, gathers up all the gifts he gave her AND HER, and takes them back to his place for the rest of their lives.
Human love sometimes fails to elicit a loving response, but God's divine love is not hampered by the limitations of human love.
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
LOVE WINS
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
LOYAL HURLEY
The age following The Great White Throne Judgment is sometimes called by theologians 'the age of consummation,' or 'the age of Jubilee,' or 'the age of the New Heaven and New Earth.'
By the time that age has ended, all fallen creatures will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.' (Alexander Thompson's translation)
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Rodger, I want you to know I really appreciate all of the "snippets" you share periodically! Its so valuable for people visiting the website and new members to read through all of your posts (and even veteran members)!
Quote from: rodgertutt on April 20, 2018, 02:03:39 PM
Even if takes kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) which is a negative expression of His love, God will sooner or later elicit a loving response from everyone.
That is what I believe.
LOVE WINS
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
me too...it's alot better'n believing the opposite !. :dsunny:
MARTIN LUTHER
I like what Martin Luther said: "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther's letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)
In the conclusion of THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL, Martin Luther wrote
""Even according to the testimony of reason herself there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!"
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html#conc
"FREE WILL"
A will in bondage to an enslaved mind is only "free" to choose what they prefer which is summed up in Romans 3:10-18. Until God intervenes and causes Jesus to be choice in their heart like He did for Saul of Tarsus, the sinner will always choose their own way rather than God's way unless they happen to coincide.
Gerry Beauchemin wrote
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
MISCELLANEOUS QUOTES
"Now in the same manner as God has converted so many to Himself
without destroying their liberty, He can undoubtedly convert whole
nations, or the whole world. And it is as easy to Him to convert a
world as one individual soul." - John Wesley
"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not
want free-will to be given me....But now that God has taken my salvation
out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of
His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running,
but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable
certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is
also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him
or pluck me from Him." -Martin Luther
"for the power of "free-will" is nil, and it does no good, nor can do,
without grace. It follows, therefore, that "free-will" is obviously a
term applicable only to Divine Majesty; for only He can do, and does
(as the Psalmist sings) "whatever he wills in heaven and earth"
[Psalms 135:6]. If "free-will" is ascribed to men, it is ascribed with
no more propriety than divinity itself would be - and no blasphemy
could exceed that! So it befits theologians to refrain from using the
term when they want to speak of human ability, and to leave it to be
applied to God only." –Martin Luther
"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the
present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be
opportunity to win it in the future... For the opinion that God could
not have created man to be rejected and cast away into eternal torment
is held among us also..." -Martin Luther, letter to Hans von Rechenberg,
1522
"How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the 'free'
will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free
will—that all men should be saved!" - David Nuckols
"He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills,
through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all
conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He
has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the
hardened heart." -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
"The healthy man does not torture others." Carl Jung
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." Confucius
"In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be
present." Sir Francis Bacon
"Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls. The most massive
characters are seared with scars." Khalil Gibran
"There can be no good without evil." Russian proverb
"It is a wise father that knows his own child." William Shakespeare
"Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects
revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method
is love." Martin Luther King, Jr.
"I have always found that mercy bears richer fruit than strict
justice." Abraham Lincoln
"There is no lasting hope in violence, only temporary relief from
hopelessness." Kingman Brewster, Jr.
"All humanity is one undivided and indivisible family. I cannot detach
myself from the wickedest soul." Mahatma Ghandi
"Love feels no burden, thinks nothing of its trouble, attempts what is
above its strength, pleads no excuse for impossibility, for it thinks
all things are lawful for itself and all things are possible." Thomas
A. Kempis
"No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for
happiness, the good he seeks." Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley
"What really raises one's indignation against suffering is not
suffering intrinsically, but the senselessness of suffering."
Frederich Nietzsche
"Adversity is like a strong wind. It tears away from us all but the
things that cannot be torn, so that we see ourselves as we truly are."
Arthur Golden
"I'm for truth no matter who tells it. I'm for justice no matter who
it's for or against." Malcolm X
MOTIVATION
Philippians 1:15-18
"Some preach Christ because of envy and strife, and some of good will.
One preaches Christ out of contention, not sincerely, the other out of love.
What then, notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being preached.
And I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."
ETers and ANers preach Christ out of the false motivation that if they don't preach many will suffer forever in "hell" or be annihilated.
But even so, like Paul, I rejoice and, yea, I will rejoice that Christ is being preached.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT CHRISTIANS VERSUS ETERNAL PUNISHMENT MUSLIMS
As most Christians already know, millions of Christians believe that millions of Muslims (and all other non-Christians too) are going to suffer forever in hell.
They believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth.
What many Christians do not know is that millions of Muslims believe that millions of Christians (and all non-Muslims) are going to suffer forever in hell too.
And they also believe it because that's the way they were taught by their parents and by other people on whom they relied to tell them the truth
Quote from THE AFTER LIFE IN ISLAM
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
That is why they believe they are doing God's work when they make a project out of killing non-Muslim "infidels" if they refuse to convert to Islam.
I think the entire dichotomy is ridiculous!
I think that the idea of "eternal hell" may be the cause of more suffering on this earth than any other idea that exists.
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that God will let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering and not go insane thinking about it.
For anyone who is interested, the following is a very informative link
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hell-scholars-corner/
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
While believers are enjoying life eonian, unbelievers will experience kolasis eonian which means age-during corrective chastisement. When the corrective chastisement has been achieved in everyone who needs it, then both life eonian and chastisement eonian will come to an end and eternity will continue with everyone saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
The age following The Great White Throne Judgment is sometimes called by theologians 'the age of consummation,' or 'the age of Jubilee,' or 'the age of the New Heaven and New Earth.'
By the time that age has ended, all fallen creatures will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
"Only as one sees God's Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God's Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons. Further, the character of God is slandered, making Him the inflictor of incomprehensible woe.
It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."
God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history. The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time. It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."
Jesus did not speak English, and neither were the scriptures written in English.
Jesus did not ever say the words "eternal life". In John 3:16 Jesus promises eonian life (greek: aionios zoe), which quite literally means something of which the horizon/end-point is not in view, but can more generally have the meaning of "pertaining to an age or ages" ie. age-abiding.
Do not confuse this with the idea of immortality - which is also a promise as shown by Paul in 1 Cor 15: 53-57. This is why all will be alive truly forever. Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted.
It has caused much confusion and travesty due to the way modern Christian tradition has munged the terms "eternal life" and "immortality".
There are many examples where the word eon and its Hebrew counter-part olam simply cannot mean literally "eternal" or "forever", yet the meaning is forced there when it is not warranted.
You can study this for yourself if you wish to honestly understand.
Christian Universalism understands what immortality is and what it means to put it on as scripture defines it. That does not change simply because Jesus was talking about an undetermined period of time.
ABOUT THE WORD AIONIOS
Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough
A snippet from THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
See this link.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
My two favourite Bible verses
1 Peter 5:7 “Cast all your care on Jesus because He cares for you.”
Isaiah 26:3 “You will keep him in perfect peace
whose mind is stayed on You because he trusts in You.”
If THE PURPOSE OF EVIL link below doesn’t open
copy and paste it into your browser and it will open.
It is the best writing on the subject that I have ever read!
MY BELIEFS IN A NUT SHELL IN TWO PARTS
1. Everything has to happen the way that it does including all attempts to assist or prevent it from happening.
(Most people regard that as common sense)
2. God is going to eventually change all suffering into something better for everyone that it happened.
(As a Christian universalist that is what I believe)
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
MY BELIEFS
I'm convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE.
All evil eventually leads to good, however, God is the only One Who can do this. He created evil (Isaiah 45:7), to provide the contrast for good. When all good is revealed, then evil will be abolished from God's universe—forever.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams (GOOD EXPOSITION)
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.
That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by Christian universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I've had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
THE COROLLARY TO MY BELIEFS
For me the corollary to my belief in universal transformation is just as important as the belief itself.
The corollary is that when the chips are down and I am overwhelmed by life's negatives to the point where I can't make my wonderful theology work for me in a practical way, yet even that sorry state of affairs is something that God will eventually transform into something better for me that it temporarily prevailed.
MYTHS - Kenneth Larsen
"...they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4
Scripture: "And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:32-35.
Myth: "God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever."
Scripture: "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20, 21.
Myth: "Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest."
Scripture: "...Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him..." "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
Myth: "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
Scripture: "For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." Romans 11:32
Myth: "It was Lucifer's doing, and Adam's. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins."
Scripture: "and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.
Myth: "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
THE NARROW DOOR AND MANY CALLED BUT FEW CHOSEN
The language is entirely confined to the present.
"Lord, are there few that be 'saved'?" The literal rendering is: "Are those being saved few?" The question relates entirely to the number then, at that time that were entering the narrow door and accepting Christ. Also, many were called to accept Christ through the apostolic preaching of that time period, but few were chosen by way of their acceptance of that call.
What it does not mean is that anyone will suffer eternal torment or be annihilated; because we know that sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
NOT EVERYONE – Matt. 7:21
If these words were taken literally, then no one at all would enter the kingdom of Heaven because, at least for a period of time EVERYONE doesn't do the will of the Father.
According to Rom. 3:10-18 EVERYONE starts out in the condition described in those verses.
All that Jesus meant by that statement is that NO UNREPENTANT SINNER will ever enter the kingdom of Heaven.
But we know that a time is coming when there will be no unrepentant sinners left in existence.
We know this because God "will have all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.
The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
.... :Chinscratch: just the other day I was reading in Ephesians 1, in the interlinear.. verses 9 and 10 -
9 - And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ -
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/1-9.htm
- His "will" - G2307. theléma ► will, often referring to God's "preferred-will," i.e. His "best-offer" - I thought that was interesting.. not only His will - which who or what can oppose? but also His preferred or top will (lol) - top priority?
9,10 - And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.
-- http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/1-10.htm - the word "all"
- G3956 pas: all, every, the whole - http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm
And how "good pleasure" is the word "eudokia" (G2107)good pleasure, also good will -
10 Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger."
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:
14 "Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace, goodwill (eudokias-G2107) toward men.."
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I'm 79 years old.
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html
125 NUTS
In my opinion, this book blows the theological ship of the Calvinists clean out of the water.
A snippet from 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. Bierbower
(another book in my hard copy UR library)
"Although a Calvinist myself for more than thirty years, the scriptures declaring God's infinite love, and the plain teachings of Jesus my Lord on the subject of love, mercy and truth, finally sank my theological ship. This left me searching for the truth as it is in Jesus. Finally I was convinced by the overwhelming number of Scriptures that our great God and Heavenly Father truly does, without partiality, love the whole world, and He will in His own time and in His own way finally reconcile all men unto Himself.
Arminianism and Calvinism both represent each other as the method for God's work in salvation, and both vigorously reject the final reconciliation of all men. It is my purpose in this book to point out to my Calvinistic brethren the inconsistency of their interpretation of Scripture."
And IMO, C.R. does a very good job of pointing out the inconsistency of the Calvinist interpretation of Scripture."
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
Two good expositions specifically answering that question!
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
Don Hewey
http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html
Eric Landstrom
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html
Matt Slick
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html
SIX WRITINGS REFUTING MATT SLICK OWNER OF THE CARM WEBSITE
http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Slick1Mt2546.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/SlickMark328.html
May the Lord point Matt Slick to Jesus so that he may repent and leave behind the ridiculous doctrine of eternal torment that slanders the character of God.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER?
It is absurd to say that Jesus would not be doing it !!!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
WHAT JESUS REALLY TAUGHT ABOUT "HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/answering-matt-slick's-article-against-universalism/msg28882/#msg28882
Tom Logan
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html
Hal Lindsey
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm
Dwane
http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html
W. E. Vine
http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html
A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.
Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
OUR HEAVENLY FATHER
According to Jesus, by nature, we are children of the devil (John 8:44).
But over and above that are the words that Jesus spoke to the multitude.
"For One is your Father, Who is in heaven." (Matt. 23:1&9).
As sinners, by attitude and actions we demonstrate that we are children of the devil.
But by right of creation, and by right of redemption through Jesus Christ, God is the Heavenly Father of everyone, even Satan (Col. 1:20).
For Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole kosmos (Greek). (1John 2:2)
Sooner or later, according to His perfect timing for each individual, God will effectively call everyone out of darkness into His marvelous light, first the chosen generation, then all the rest later. (1Peter 2:9; Col. 1:20)
A snippet from THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
Heb. 11:3 should read, "Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God." The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, 'But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.'
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ's blood (Col. 1:20).
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
PAUL
The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.
Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul's will "free."
But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that "the sin that dwelt within him" (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul's will in his war with his sinful nature.
Quote from: rodgertutt on June 15, 2018, 01:28:23 PM
PAUL
The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.
Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul's will "free."
But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that "the sin that dwelt within him" (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul's will in his war with his sinful nature.
Amen !!!! God let us know that we are all struggling just as Paul described , making us not feel like a castaway !
the whole creation was subject to vanity/futility not willingly , our sinful nature is just that uselessness, pointless , ineffectiveness!! No One striving against GOD can do it for long or well ha ! lol Point taken !
Romans 8 Future Glory
...19The
creation waits in eager expectation for the
revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility,
not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope
21
that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and
brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm
Kenneth Larsen and James Coram
"Everlasting destruction" would mean that they cease to exist. However, that terminology wasn't used by any of the prophets. I didn't make up universal reconciliation. It has strong Bible support.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20and many other texts that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire.
Questions
In order to have a consistent, logical Biblical worldview, some questions about the Final Destiny of people must be answered. The Bible, to be credible, must be able to be logically explained. This is self-evident. As centuries have passed, ideas that were Orthodox, but unbiblical, have fallen away. Sometimes en masse, as during the Reformation. Sometimes more slowly, as with the gradual abolition of slavery, which was led and championed primarily by Christians.
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation. Unless these can be honestly answered, without rhetorical trickery, the Orthodox is just an unorthodox as Relics and paying for release of dead relatives from Purgatory was during the majority of Christian history.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not myterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?\
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and loving relationship to Christ?
These, and many more questions, must be answered scripturally and logically if the idea of an Eternal Torture is to be even considered as a Biblical possibility
:HeartThrob:
RAY PRINZING TAPES
RAY PRINZING IS MY EARTHLY HERO AND MENTOR
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GOOD WRITINGS
During my twelve year nervous breakdown caused by my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to suffer forever, I would listen to a Ray Prinzing tape while I washed the dishes of my family every day and before going to sleep at night. Through the years that I repeatedly listened to these tapes I became more and more confident that that I was going to recover from my breakdown.
In the opinion of Rodger Tutt of Toronto, Canada, the following are the best of all of Ray Prinzing's taped sermons.
6 CHRIST OUR MERCY SEAT
8 NO SUBSTITUTE
9 TRUST
16 SEE NO EVIL
29 THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
32 SUFFICIENT THE EVIL
35 CHANGING THY STRENGTH
36 AS KINGS AND PRIESTS
38 REVELATION TO REVELATION
42 THE TREE OF LIFE
48 KEPT IN PEACE
51 GOD'S RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENTS
55 ALLEGORY OF RACHEL
56 NONE SHALL BE LOST
59 REPENTANCE TOWARDS GOD
61 AND GOD REPENTED
63 THE END OF THE LORD
71 URGED ON BY FAITH
76 MINISTRY OF SALT
89 BLESSINGS REWARDED OR INHERITED
90 NO CONDEMNATION
95 NOT SOMEHOW BUT TRIUMPHANTLY
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
105 THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
111 OF THE SAME LUMP
119 HELD TOGETHER BY LOVE
121 ESTABLISH THE SECOND
122 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART TWO
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
128 ADVANCE IN ADVERSITY
131 ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
133 AFTER THE PRESSURES
134 THE POLISHED SHAFT
135 INTERNAL TRIUMPH
136 RECONCILED INTO HIMSELF
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
142 THE HIDDEN ONES
143 GOD'S GENTLENESS TO MAN
147 BEYOND DISCIPLINE
148 BEHOLDING HIM
149 DELIVERANCE
150 ENTER THY CHAMBERS
151 GOD OF THE VALLEY
152 GOD OF THE MOUNTAINS
153 IN QUIETNESS
154 IN CONFIDENCE
158 RENEWED INTO HIS MIND
160 EAT THE BOOK
161 HOLD FAST TO THE HEAD
162 THE SEVENTH MAN
164 SORROW TURNED INTO JOY
165 MAKE READY A PEOPLE
166 DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS
167 THE BIRTHRIGHT CHALLENGE
168 MY FATHER IS GREATER
169 HIS PARTICIPATING PRESENCE
170 CHANGES, TYRANNY OR BLESSING
171 TILL HE PLEASE
172 IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
173 KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
174 THE SWORD GUARDED WAY
175 THE HEAVENLY VISION
176 DEFEATING THE ACCUSERS
177 NEITHER TOIL NOR SPIN
178 THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
180 HE THAT SHALL ENDURE
181 LIFT UP A STANDARD
183 MUCH MORE
186 WHEN GOD HIDES HIS FACE
187 FAITH VICTORIOUS
188 DIVINE CONFIRMATION
189 WAIT FOR WISDOM'S CHILDREN
190 GOD CHOSE OUR FATHERS
192 LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER
194 EARTHEN VESSEL SINKS
196 A VERY PRESENT HELP
197 A NEW COAT, YEAR BY YEAR
198 COME UP HITHER
199 UNDER HIS SHADOW
200 A HUSHED SECRET
201 EXPECTATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
202 RETURNING INTO GOD
203 PUT A DIFFERENCE
204 FROM EAST TO WEST
206 TIME OF YOUR SOJOURNING
207 HIS HAND IS STRETCHED OUT
208 WHAT SHALL I DO?
209 TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS
210 GIVE DILIGENCE
211 LIVING EPISTLES
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
218 HOLD FAST TILL I COME
219 ACTIVELY RESTING
221 AN INNER REJOICING
222 BLESS ME INDEED
224 NO MORE ECCENTRIC
225 NOT A SPIRIT OF FEAR
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
227 AND SUDDENLY
228 THE HEAVENLY HOST ATTENDS
229 FIT FOR THE KINGDOM
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
231 GOD IS IN CONTROL
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
233 OUR THREEFOLD JUDGEMENT
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
238 FROM POVERTY TO RICHES
239 ABIDING IN GOD
240 PARTS OF HIS WAYS
241 CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST
242 MASTER OF MYSELF
243 ANOINTED EYE SIGHT
244 FAITH THAT OBTAINS
246 THE FURNACE FOR GOLD
247 RAISE UP THE FOUNDATION
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
250 INWARD REVELATION OF THE SON
251 KINGDOM LIFE TRANSFORMING
252 SO GROWS THE KINGDOM
253 AFTER YE HAVE SUFFERED
254 CHOSEN TO KNOW HIS WILL
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
256 OUR THREEFOLD RESURRECTION
257 A THORN FOR THE FLESH
258 THE MINISTRY OF WAITING
259 THERE IS A RIVER
267 HEARING, LEARNING, COMING
268 THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE ME
269 HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
270 GOLD IN THE MAKING
271 MAKE TO LACK, READY TO FILL
273 ACQUAINTED WITH THE ALMIGHTY
274 EACH IN HIS OWN RANK
278 GOD'S UNFINISHED WORK
280 FULLY PERSUADED
285 CONTINUALLY WITH HIM
286 SURRENDERED TO HIS LORDSHIP
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
296 INIQUITY SHALL HAVE AN END
297 OVERFLOW WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS
298 THINGS BELONGING TO PEACE
301 HIS DESIRE IS TOWARD ME
302 REFINED AS SILVER
303 AND GOD REMEMBERED
304 LOOSE THE PRISONER
305 ASPECTS OF SPIRITUAL LIFE
306 GOD'S INDWELLING CONTROL
307 OUT OF HIM WE CAME
308 GRACE UPON GRACE
309 JUDGEMENT RESTS FOR A LIGHT
310 HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER
312 THE SURE MERCIES OF DAVID
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
316 TOTAL AVAILABILITY
317 VIEWING THE THIRD DAY
326 KINGDOM AUTHORITY
THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE RAY PRINZING TAPES
GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GREAT WRITINGS
Ray Prinzing's very best, and his two extra good tapes.
30 GOD'S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST (extra good)
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
339 GOD SO LOVED HE GAVE
352 BUT GOD MUCH MORE
385 FREEDOM OF THE GLORY
387 ESTABLISHED BY GRACE (extra good)
Isn't it always amazing to find Christians that argue God sends people to Hell? Thinking of course they're certainly bound for Heaven.
I watched this Philadelphia pastor on his church TV broadcast a year or so ago. Pastor Gino Jennings. He preached prior that if someones pastor or bishop taught something that sounded wrong to confront them. Ask them , where is that in the Bible?
He should not have said that. This particular broadcast he's there with his Bible reader William, as usual. William will read the scripture that supports Jennings teaching. He was stone silent when Gino said, God said he made Hell to get even with man!
God says to love our enemies. But he, being omniscient and all things happening by his will and for his glory sends enemies to Hell to burn for eternity?
Try to tell the most fundamental believers the real history of Hell. You suddenly are charged as a heretic. I wonder if those ones were alive when church and state united burned, guillotined, and hanged people for that very charge?
To think Hell advocates are saying the good news of Christ is, he loves you! You must love him back or he'll burn you in a pit forever. :doh:
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on June 26, 2018, 04:59:15 AM
Isn't it always amazing to find Christians that argue God sends people to Hell? Thinking of course they're certainly bound for Heaven.
I watched this Philadelphia pastor on his church TV broadcast a year or so ago. Pastor Gino Jennings. He preached prior that if someones pastor or bishop taught something that sounded wrong to confront them. Ask them , where is that in the Bible?
He should not have said that. This particular broadcast he's there with his Bible reader William, as usual. William will read the scripture that supports Jennings teaching. He was stone silent when Gino said, God said he made Hell to get even with man!
God says to love our enemies. But he, being omniscient and all things happening by his will and for his glory sends enemies to Hell to burn for eternity?
Try to tell the most fundamental believers the real history of Hell. You suddenly are charged as a heretic. I wonder if those ones were alive when church and state united burned, guillotined, and hanged people for that very charge?
To think Hell advocates are saying the good news of Christ is, he loves you! You must love him back or he'll burn you in a pit forever. :doh:
I do not think most can even begin to know the LOVE OF GOD without being changed to receive the things of God till the born again from above experience happens as an awaking /birthing ,until than is just being formed in us [ like a baby is hid in the womb ] ,Holy Spirit & fire changing us ,so is our mind is being purified / pure virgin like to receive the seed / Word that does know the Love of God though Jesus Christ / Word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit both are witnesses to the TRUTH that sets us free from the bondage of sin and slavery to carnalness resulting in dead works of vanity ..
It is as a beast before the Lord Psalms 73
Take any man reading the bible with his carnal mind and soon becomes a dangerous creature .
It is a true misuse of power .. :sigh:
The only way the Holy Bible will reveal the TRUTH is with the Holy Spirit anointing , this is with the same mind of Christ/or anointing
The carnal mind is an enemy against the Spirit and we know the book is spiritual , God is Spirit and so we have those in the flesh that cannot please God being enemies , because they have not been born of faith , just a natural instinct to rule as a god /beast they want to Be God , not be God like in nature .
Romans 8
Just some more thoughts about it .. :2c:
Everyone has an "opinion," including Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor).
I'm just so glad that I discovered his "opinion" that enabled me to recover from a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 79 now) caused by my inability to love or trust a god who would let anyone suffer forever or annihilate them. During that period of time I had continual panic attacks both night and day.
During my breakdown, every morning, as I washed my family's dishes and before I went to sleep at night, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing's many tapes.
I have listened to 178 of them twice, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH (because someone else had the copyright on GOSPEL ECHOES) and I gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.
Many people have an earthly hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that earthly hero to me.
For several years my 104 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing's writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray's tapes.
As I listened to Ray's tapes I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.
Now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that the info I share is helping other people in the same way that it helped me.
All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several pages of Google links about him.
The theme of universal salvation is prominent in all of Ray's writings, but his book
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is especially good
Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but he will not likely be forgotten on this earth for many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
I love it that the Lord sends us , ministering angels with the good news of the gospel out of their mouths comes waters of life freely , spreading the truth in LOVE :HeartThrob:
God bless you Rodger , with your much sharing the good news of the gospel over the years ....
Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on June 26, 2018, 12:00:54 PM
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on June 26, 2018, 04:59:15 AM
Isn't it always amazing to find Christians that argue God sends people to Hell? Thinking of course they're certainly bound for Heaven.
I watched this Philadelphia pastor on his church TV broadcast a year or so ago. Pastor Gino Jennings. He preached prior that if someones pastor or bishop taught something that sounded wrong to confront them. Ask them , where is that in the Bible?
He should not have said that. This particular broadcast he's there with his Bible reader William, as usual. William will read the scripture that supports Jennings teaching. He was stone silent when Gino said, God said he made Hell to get even with man!
God says to love our enemies. But he, being omniscient and all things happening by his will and for his glory sends enemies to Hell to burn for eternity?
Try to tell the most fundamental believers the real history of Hell. You suddenly are charged as a heretic. I wonder if those ones were alive when church and state united burned, guillotined, and hanged people for that very charge?
To think Hell advocates are saying the good news of Christ is, he loves you! You must love him back or he'll burn you in a pit forever. :doh:
I do not think most can even begin to know the LOVE OF GOD without being changed to receive the things of God till the born again from above experience happens as an awaking /birthing ,until than is just being formed in us [ like a baby is hid in the womb ] ,Holy Spirit & fire changing us ,so is our mind is being purified / pure virgin like to receive the seed / Word that does know the Love of God though Jesus Christ / Word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit both are witnesses to the TRUTH that sets us free from the bondage of sin and slavery to carnalness resulting in dead works of vanity ..
It is as a beast before the Lord Psalms 73
Take any man reading the bible with his carnal mind and soon becomes a dangerous creature .
It is a true misuse of power .. :sigh:
The only way the Holy Bible will reveal the TRUTH is with the Holy Spirit anointing , this is with the same mind of Christ/or anointing
The carnal mind is an enemy against the Spirit and we know the book is spiritual , God is Spirit and so we have those in the flesh that cannot please God being enemies , because they have not been born of faith , just a natural instinct to rule as a god /beast they want to Be God , not be God like in nature .
Romans 8
Just some more thoughts about it .. :2c:
When I have time I lurk at Christian community discussion boards to see what the current hot topic is. Inevitably there is this type topic. Then there's the other certain to be found. Women aren't called to preach. Word it as you like that is the pronouncement.
Think about why such carnal thoughts in that topic area and this current one arise. The passage that tells us certain Disciples went out from the number who followed Christ because they weren't one with him. The Word didn't reach their mind as intended.
Now think about how those who are that today and on forums opining that it is not in dispute! The damned roast for eternity are ignorant of how that conflicts with God telling us to love our enemies.
Love our enemies! But God roasts his for eternity?
But you'll find people who insist, yes! And when asked that question they'll paste together all manner of scripture out of context. In order to interpolate their point being right in God's eyes. That's blaspheming the holy spirit. But they'll never be persuaded to know that is true.
Same with those who insist women aren't called to preach.
It is ego-centrism. Think of the power someone assumes when they take on the role of insisting God thinks as they do. Especially if they're doing that from the pulpit.
Their Jesus is that which affirms, love me! Or I'll burn you.
Truly unbelievable.
RAYMOND VAN DYKE
Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20:21-22:
In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
• No more rule
• No more authority
• No more power
• No more enemies
• No more reigning
• All subjected
• No more death, death destroyed.
• All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:
• Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
• Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
• Authority (21:24,25)
• Power (21:24,25; 22:2
• Kings (21:24-26)
• Saints reign (22:5)
• Second death still exists (21:5)
• The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote
Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20:21, 22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)
http://lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/
I agree Batty Bible page :iagree: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: Come Lord come ...
Truly unbelievable. :sigh: I believe you are right about that , LOVE your enemies because those still captive with the death mindset are still enemies of the cross of CHRIST , HE holds death captive in HIMSELF / LIFE and is now the LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING , ALL BELONG TO HIM!
BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD ....
Romans 14 The Law of Liberty
...8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord.
So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat....
Their wisdom will not give life to the dead ,as they are also dead in their thinking ! and is still an enemy to the Spirit of Life ...
Amen bro Rodger !! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 27, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Amen Rose, this one was brought to the number one position on my list, not making others less important, but making it "just as" important
Blessings to all
Quote from: jugghead on June 27, 2018, 06:51:27 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 27, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Amen Rose, this one was brought to the number one position on my list, not making others less important, but making it "just as" important
Blessings to all
Amen Jugg , :iagree:
Romans has come to Life in these few days !! jumping for joy :banana:
God Works In All Things !!!!!
(Ephesians 1:3-14)
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him,
who are called according to His purpose.
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.
31What then shall we say in response to these things?
If God is for us, who can be against us?
32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?
33Who will bring any charge against God's elect?
It is God who justifies.
34 Who is there to condemn us?
For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life,
is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. (Psalm 44:1-26)
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
All will be awaked to know this !! Many try to limit God and say , But you had your chance while you were mortal !
But it is GODS
WORD WHOM JUSTIFIES , not mankind's words !
To know God is to Love Him and all will Love Him because , all will Know Him in the end !!! I believe !! :HeartThrob:
REQUIRED READING
IMO the following should be required reading for all Bible school students.
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
Tracing Universalist Thought Through Church History
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
Does Scripture Teach Universal Salvation? - Yes it does
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm
RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
And without a parable spake not Jesus unto the multitude Matt 13:34
https://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html
RICHARD CONDON
QUESTIONS WITHOUT ANSWERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html
From the introduction
"To those holding a limited view of God's plan of salvation, they are truly Questions Without Answers, but, to those who rely on God's Word, the answers become apparent as His truth is revealed to them."
An important follow-up! - by Richard Condon
A REFUTATION AND A RESPONSE
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
Infant Salvation
Believers in eternal torment are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few", also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin said, "There are babies a span long in hell".
Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if evangelicals are right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies' eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 104 year old Dad often said, "That's what makes Him God!"
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!
* Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!
BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."
EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."
MARTIN ZENDER
"The world hates God because of the picture Christianity has painted of Him. The doctrine of eternal torment is a teaching of demons; a myth. It infects the world via a series of false expressions, printed onto tracts and forced into sermons. Those who espouse and teach it are in full heed of deceiving spirits, though they know it not.
There must be a remedy, and there is. 2Timothy 2:15, 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.'
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying."
Origin of Endless Punishment
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16). (end quote) (Job 12:16).
"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote)
Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.
Amen.. I don't see how we could come to any other conclusion because of the verses, including the truth that our Father Most High "is perfect"!
:gsmile:
"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." (end quote)
AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued. (end quote)
ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all." (end quote)
CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the lustre of the universe." (end quote)
Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself." (end quote)
COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."
THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves, Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.
TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
"Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God's affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God's love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God's limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This --- this will be happiness --- and heaven.
Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!"
A POEM BY A.G. CAMPBELL
I deem they greatly err, who hold
That He Who made the human soul,
Will not its destinies control
For final good – but, wrathful, fold
It in the shrouds of hopeless woe,
Of deathless gloom, of quenchless fire,
The creatures of His vengeful ire,
Whence it can never ransom know.
So, in the world to come, His love
Shall freely unto all abound;
Even prisoners in the depths profound
Shall see His kind face beam above
Their dreary cells, and hear His voice,
Unheeded once, in mercy call, --
"Turn, turn to Me and live!" and all
Shall hear the summons and rejoice.
Lost men, lost angels, shall return, --
Satan himself be purified;
Death shall be conquered in his pride,
And hell's fierce fires shall cease to burn.
Then shall our God be All in all –
His love bear universal sway;
His love preserves all souls for aye,
Nor shall the weakest fear a fall.
REVELATION 20:10
A frequently asked question regarding Revelation 20:10
How can there only be one age after the millennium when the devil, at the end of the thousand years, is to be tormented unto ages of ages?
Response by James Coram.
The problem here is a loose usage of terms. The thousand years of the saint's reign does not constitute the entirety of the coming epochal eon or duration. The two do not end at the same time.
The period of time covered by the word eon depends upon the context. The expression "for the eon" does not necessarily include the entirety of the eon intended. While some seem to think that it must include the whole of a given eon, on the contrary, when an action occurs in an eon, it usually refers only to the rest of it. Our Lord spoke to the barren fig tree, "No longer, by any means, may fruit be coming from you for the eon." Did He forbid fruit from the deluge to His coming? The tree was not even planted until a thousand years after the flood, and it did produce fruit in this eon, but was to do so no longer (Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14; John 13:8; 1Cor. 8:13).
So also in the plural. "For the eons" does not denote the whole of them. Christ shall reign over the house of Jacob "for the eons," yet only two of them will be left when the kingdom commences (Luke 1:33).
The same is true of the phrase "for the eons of the eons." We read that the saints will be reigning for the eons of the eons (Rev. 22:5). But some of these saints will not be alive at the commencement of the millennial eon. We cannot delay this eon after the advent of the Messiah. Yet Daniel and the dead circumcision saints are not raised until seventy-five days later. Part of the eon will be past when they commence to reign with Him the thousand years (Rev. 20:6). The same usage is found with reference to the torment of the Adversary. Although the wild beast and the false prophet have been in the lake of fire a thousand years before him (Rev. 19:20), only one phrase is used for both: "the eons of the eons (Rev. 20:10). At that juncture, how much of that eon still remains, we do not know. But no matter how little, so it was that our Lord and His apostles spoke, and we should follow His example. This usage in Rev. 20:10 of the word eon does not affect its meaning. The limitations are in the context, not in the word."
If you look in the Concordant Version of Rev 20:7 please look at the vertical line in front of "finished." "And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail." You could say: whenever the thousand years should be finishing . . . ." So Satan is cast into the lake of fire when the thousand years is finishing and through the new earth eon thus comprising the eons of the eons.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10. Those who hold to the theory of "annihilation" contend that Satan is consumed in the lake of fire, ceasing to exist before the new earth begins. Yet the text is plain: he will be tormented during TWO eons; what remains of the "millennial" eon (which lasts a little over 1,000 years), and the final eon on the new earth. Likewise, we are told of those who "shall be reigning for the eons of the eons." Rev. 22:5. That they shall be reigning on the new earth is apparent- Rev. 21:24. Likewise, Satan will be alive (and in torment) during the final eon.
Mistranslating "eons of the eons" as "forever and ever" solves nothing; it only feeds the vile theory of eternal torment, while generating considerable confusion. As for those vessels of indignation who are cast into the lake of fire near the end of the millennial eon, for them that lake is the second death. Yet they are not annihilated; their part is in that lake during the final eon- Rev. 21:8. They are not described as "nonexistent", rather, they are described as being outside the holy city- Rev. 22:15. They will be dead until death is abolished at the consummation of the eons.
Amen! ..I would only add maybe there is an eon called the judgment.. and only at end of that eon, not of the millennium, that any not believing (still?) will go to Lof (for a duration, tho sometimes I wonder if it's God's Spirit and is part of "the judgment" (eon?)
SAUL OF TARSUS – ACTS 9:1-9
"Free willers" argue that Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus because He knew that Saul would accept Him.
Fact is, ANYONE would accept him under Saul's predicament.
A light from heaven blinds him and he falls to the earth and hears a voice saying, "I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting."
It is absurd to think that anyone would reply to Jesus, "Screw you Jesus Christ. I'm going to keep slaughtering your followers just like I did before."
Few of us have a conversion experience as dramatic as Saul's but it was just as surely a product of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and CAUSING Jesus to be choice in our heart. It is impossible to give ALL the glory to God and avoid self-righteousness when we claim that it was not God Who CAUSED our new mental preference.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
https://www.concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/part-9-choosing-choice/
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
It is true that there are things that God cannot do.
For example, God cannot lie. But He doesn't want to lie.
But He DOES want to save ALL mankind.
SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen
Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. "All that Yahweh delights He does,
In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6.
See Matt. 19:25, 26.
Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. "Who will have all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.
Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and
since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just
that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.
Faith in God's promises,
And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
https://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
and sequential logic,
and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
all support universal reconciliation.
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
P.S.
Quote
THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
:thumbsup: - I think I should read this! At the latest over the winter.. And retain it, lol..
Thank you! :girlheart:
"...He forbade all anxiety and care among his followers, and exhorted all to be as trustful as are the lilies of the field and the fowls of the air. - from 2nd chapter..
Quote
Also from chapter 2
It was only when the Father was lost sight of in the judge and tyrant, under the baneful reign of Augustinianism, the Deity was hated, and that Catholics transferred to Mary, and later, Protestants gave to Jesus that supreme love that is due alone to the Universal Father. For centuries in Christendom after the Alexandrine form of Christianity had waned, the Fatherhood of God was a lost truth, and most of the worst errors of the modern creeds are due to that single fact, more than to all other causes.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I absolutely believe that!
Quote
Matthew Arnold has preserved this truth in his immortal verse:14
"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence on the side
of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried,--
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave,
Whose sins once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant Church,--of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eyes suffused but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew
And on his shoulders not a lamb, a kid! (A goat!)
"and seen almost everywhere, is the Good Shepherd, surrounded by his flock and carrying a lamb. But most striking of all, he is found with a goat on his shoulder; which teaches us that even the wicked were at the early date regarded as the objects of the Savior's solicitude, after departing from this life."
The Greek word fish, in capitals -- -- effigy of a fish to signify his faith. These and the vine, the sheep, the dove, the ark, the palm and other emblems in the Catacombs express only hope, faith, cheerful confidence. The horrid inventions of Augustine, the cruel monstrosities of Angelo and Dante, and the abominations of the medieval theology were all unthought of then, and have no hint in the Catacombs.
should and may – James Coram
As to the word "should" in Phil 2:10,11 and the "may" of 1Cor. 15:28, it is not the should or may of doubt but is a dependent clause based upon the grammar of the subjunctive.
For instance, a clear example of the subjunctive of "may" and "should" is when I state, "I have a pen in my hand. I will loosen my grip on the pen so that it may or should be falling." The falling of the pen is dependent on my loosing it. It definitely will fall should I loosen my grip on it. There is no doubt in the "may" or "should."
Now, looking at the passage; "Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with a Name that is above every name, that in the Name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father." Phil. 2:9-11.
Every knee bowing and every tongue acclaiming is dependent upon
1. Christ going to the cross (verse 8), and
2. God gracing Him with a Name above every name.
Since these have taken place, all WILL bow the knee, and their tongue WILL acclaim Jesus as their Lord.
JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
"Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth's history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.
During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father's love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.
Thus will all ultimately be justified. God's matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!"
Wow! ...Or that is, amen! The logos includes logic.. in a big way! With the Word, and logic.. omg! And amen, He is perfect. Even now all things are perfect - did I ever catch heck for saying that once! But even in each person's darkest moment.. and in the very darkest tartarus of history.. it was all perfect. How so..? Because (surely?) logic tells us so, because He is perfect. Logic, can actually explain to us all things. Surely?
What a great paragraph! Thank you for posting that!
My pleasure marie :HeartThrob:
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
"Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.
The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God's character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.
The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God's love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God's purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God's purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God's purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.
The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.
God's grace differs from Adam's offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam's offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam's sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.
Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus."
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
The introduction reads "Mistranslation of the Greek word 'aion' is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. Because the understanding of the eons and God's purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on important issues like judgment, and man's destiny. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after spiritual truth will be aided in their quest."
Here is a snippet from the writing itself. "During this present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), sin reigns, Satan who is said to be 'the god of this eon' (2Cor. 4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1Cor. 15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
In due time, He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom. 8:18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
:thumbsup:
And:
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/ChartOfTheEonianTimes.htm
:dsunny:
TESTIMONY – RODGER TUTT
I would like to tell you about both the negative and positive sides of my testimony in case it might be a help to other members, or surfers, or lurkers, of this forum who have, or are experiencing what I went through for similar reasons.
I'm 79 years old, and had I known that evidence existed that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love an endless-hell god.
THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY
From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.
If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.
I think that probably most of the agnosticism in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers (eternal tomentors) claim to love and worship.
Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.
This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.
When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it."
So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.
Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.
At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.
My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until on one occasion the welts on my legs bled. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.
Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behaviour. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.
So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.
Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 79 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
THE POSITIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY
Now I'm a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.
Before you brush off my assertion by saying "there is no such a thing," think about the following.
MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His many writings can be Googled up and read online.
Just type in Ray Prinzing.
During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family's dishes and before I went to sleep I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing's many tapes.
I have listened to 178 of them once, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.
Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.
For several years my 104 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing's writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray's tapes.
As I listened to Ray's tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I'm 79 years old now)
My panic attacks completely stopped.
And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.
Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
J. Preston Eby was a good friend of Ray Prinzing. They frequently quoted each other in their writings. Read what J. Preston Eby wrote about this subject. Copy and paste into Google
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER? or click on
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
The entire series of sixteen chapters by J. Preston Eby on this subject can be accessed at
Savior of the World Series
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
His writing specifically on universal transformation is at
The Restitution of All Things
http://www.godfire.net/eby/restitution.html
SEE ESPECIALLY THE VERY LAST PARAGRAPH IN THAT ARTICLE
Like I said before, if I truly believed the Bible teaches eternal hell, I probably would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that. I would live my life trying to treat other people the way I would like to be treated by them and hope for the best after I die.
I think the doctrine of endless hell is probably the primary reason why many decent people choose agnosticism or atheism rather than Christianity. Like President Abraham Lincoln said to the eternal-hell evangelist, "Your god is my devil."
A TRIBUTE TO SEVERAL OF MY SPECIAL FRIENDS
Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor), and Ray's friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.
IMO people like Ray and Preston and George know the real Jesus.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
http://www.godfire.net/eby/godislove.html
Here's another testimony (by Charles Slagle) that was a huge help to me because the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown were the same as mine.
Copy and paste the links into your browser.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm
or
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
The second link is his own personal website.
I am very happy to report that mostly due to the influence of the audio tapes and writings of Ray Prinzing, both of my parents changed their thinking later in life.
The theme of universal salvation is prominent in all of Ray's writings, but his book
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is especially good
:friendstu: Thank you Mr. Tutt!That is a powerful testimony of God's pure character which is really love! "
God IS
Love"! :cloud9:
That there are..
Quote
...no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone.
...a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever..
See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
I think the doctrine of endless hell is probably the primary reason why many decent people choose agnosticism or atheism rather than Christianity. Like President Abraham Lincoln said to the eternal-hell evangelist, "Your god is my devil."
I very much believe that to be true!
THE BLACKEST OF ALL BACKGROUNDS
As some of you know, I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I'm 79 now) over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever.
By listening to many audio tapes by Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor) over that period of time, I was able to gradually recover. All of Ray Prinzing's writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several Google pages of links about him.
Millions of Muslims believe that non Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell.
Quote from
Islamic Beliefs about the Afterlife
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally."
And, as most people already know, millions of Christians believe that non-Christians are going to suffer forever in hell.
The way that I emotionally cope with (i.e. stop myself from going crazy again) because of the existence of ETers (i.e. believers in eternal torment), is to perceive ETers as God's vessels of grossest dishonour -- a necessary foil of contrast in the guise of truth – a part of the blackest of backgrounds, upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His undefeatable grace and His love that never fails.
The marred vessels (i.e. ETers), never leave the Potter's hands, (they are marred in the Potter's hands), and neither will anyone leave the Potters hands. After our resurrection from the dead, all ETers will be refashioned, and transformed into vessels of honour, and it will be plain for all to see that it was better that ETers were vessels of dishonour for a long as they were (Jeremiah chapter 18).
One of the dishonourable characteristics of ETers is that they have no desire whatsoever to check out the reasons why URs (i.e. universal reconciliationists) believe that a literally translated, (not interpretively) translated Bible, actually teaches universal salvation.
But it may be that a silent member, or surfer, or lurker on this forum might be motivated enough to check us out and decide if the conclusions of URs have any merit.
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
No doubt, many ETers will say that they have examined the evidence of the URs and have rejected it as being false. That, of course is to be expected of those for whom God has chosen to temporarily be a marred vessel. At least, that is the way I see it.
Amen! ..the minds have been blinded.. truth chipped away at from every angle. I'm so thankful we have the Bible and that we understand how human translators of a culture steeped in old world superstition of afterlife torment, hoisted upon mankind via ancient king and priest collusion to control the people.. How it came to be translated into Christianity.. And is so obviously not a part of God's Word or character or attributes. You can't really take logic out of the Logos of God! And then all those U.R. verses make "perfect" sense!
:Peace2: :cloud9:
THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL
In the conclusion of his book THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL Martin Luther wrote
there can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html
THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely
As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.
As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based. But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.
When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.
When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.
THE ABSURDITY OF "FREE" WILL
AN EXCELLENT SHORT WRITING BY MARTIN ZENDER
"THE FLY IN THE JAR"
http://www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF2.1.pdf
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 22, 2018, 06:56:29 AM
THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely
As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.
As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based. But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.
When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.
When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.
Further enlightenment on this topic is available om the "herald of God's Grace" web site. Here is an excerpt from one relevant article:Now, what was "this question?" It was the same question as that at the opening of this article. The same one that causes the conflict between Paul and James. Is salvation by faith, or by faith and works combined? This church at Jerusalem knew nothing of a salvation without works. So saturated with the keeping of the law of Moses were they, that twenty years after Pentecost, they said to Paul, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are that believe, and they are all zealous of the law" (Acts 21:20). Now anyone should be able to see that the church at Jerusalem, these elders, Peter, James, and John were fighting bravely for a gospel of law-works and faith combined. Nothing else can explain their position here. Why try to warp the Scriptures out of all semblance of what they teach, and force upon them a meaning totally foreign to their intent?
Now while this was going on, Paul was contending just as manfully for his gospel of faith alone, without works, without any works as an aid to salvation or justification.
Just here lies the major difficulty, and it is fundamental. This is why it brought on such a commotion that the Holy Spirit Himself came and laid His hand upon the men most concerned in the matter at this conference, and gave unto each his special commission (Gal.2:7-9). What was it? That Paul should go and minister to the gentiles, while the elders, Peter, James, and John, should go and minister to the Jews. Notice, the Holy Spirit is careful to say that
there are two gospels here, "the gospel of the Circumcision, and the gospel of the Uncircumcision." It is not the gospel to each, that is, to carry the same gospel to each, but there is a gospel of the Circumcision (which included faith and works), and there is a gospel of the Uncircumcision (salvation by faith alone). Now Paul was to carry this latter to the gentiles, while the elders were to proclaim the former to the Jews. And note this, never do we find a record where this was ever changed, canceled, or fused into one gospel.
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Fallis/PaulVsJames.htm
:Peace2:
Thanks joe :iagree:
THE GRAND ASSERTION – Don Hicks
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing". I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios". "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type. The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power". Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".
The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever. The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe." The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista". Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever". Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever? What's more than forever? That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.
An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing. Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID,
ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.
NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to
belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we
have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will
only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might
think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned
spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional
stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and
Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be
disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.
Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's. God
grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical
death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something
man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his
traditions, but God's word does not speak of it.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day."
Phi 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you
should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,"
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.
"ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him
be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will
also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that
God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE
OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD
DAVID was inspired to write:
Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the
LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For
the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations
ISAIAH was inspired to write:
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in
righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and
strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against
him.
PAUL was inspired to write:
Phi 2:10-11 "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will
bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."
JOHN was inspired to record:
Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on
the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
for the ages of the ages!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and
confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment.
Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the
Father". It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without
meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus
is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
(1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD
THE ABSURDITY OF "FREE" WILL
AN EXCELLENT SHORT WRITING BY MARTIN ZENDER
"THE FLY IN THE JAR"
http://www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF2.1.pdf
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 24, 2018, 12:47:10 PM
Thanks joe :iagree:
THE GRAND ASSERTION – Don Hicks
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;"
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God's wrath,
and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know
what they are doing". I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, "Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone."
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO "PUNISHMENT", "DESTRUCTION", "PERISHING", "LOSTNESS" IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD'S "PUNISHMENTS" OR "DESTRUCTION" ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be "eternal", but it will be "aeonian or eonian", the
English equivalents of the Greek "aionios". "Aeonian" punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek "kolasis" which has been
used in reference to "pruning" a plant for the purpose of better
production. "Kolasis" punishment is the corrective type, whereas, "timoria"
punishment is the retributive type. The "aeonian" life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, "...who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,...", is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is "from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power". Jesus was
"destroyed" at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of "eternal" associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and "the last enemy to be eliminated will be death".
The "lost" sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever. The word "lost" is the translation of the Greek
"apollumi", from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
"lost" until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to "seek and save the lost".
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the "lost"
unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe." The Greek word that got translated
"especially" here is "malista". Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word "olam" has as its Greek equivalents "aion" and "aionios" in
the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily "eternal", or "everlasting" or "forever",
if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah's duration
in the fish, even though the "traditional" translation has been "forever".
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as "forever", which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase "forever and ever". Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words "and ever" after you
have already said forever? What's more than forever? That's like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd "forever and ever" phrase.
An analysis of the word "hell" is quite revealing. Jesus used the word
"geena" or "hades" and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word "hell", which means
"unseen" (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew "sheol" and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment" traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of "eternal" punishment
inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God's corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus' audience knew
exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as "unseen" or "the grave" as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a
number of versions that don't use the word "hell" even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God's servants: DAVID,
ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.
NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to
belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we
have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will
only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might
think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned
spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional
stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and
Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be
disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.
Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man's. God
grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical
death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something
man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his
traditions, but God's word does not speak of it.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day."
Phi 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you
should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,"
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.
"ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME." --- GOD
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him
be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will
also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that
God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE
OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD
DAVID was inspired to write:
Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the
LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For
the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations
ISAIAH was inspired to write:
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in
righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and
strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against
him.
PAUL was inspired to write:
Phi 2:10-11 "...so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will
bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."
JOHN was inspired to record:
Rev 5:13 "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on
the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
for the ages of the ages!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and
confessing as somehow "forced", is born out of bias for eternal torment.
Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase "to the glory of God the
Father". It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without
meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus
is Lord, that "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
(1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD
:happyclap: :thumbsup: :cloud9: :cloud9:
P.S.
Quote from: rodgertutt on October 22, 2018, 06:56:29 AM
THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely
As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.
As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based. But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.
When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.
When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.
EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
Amen! Since it was "made for the adversary and his angels/messengers" I believe they will be the ones cast there at end of judgment day(age?) and that they will come out the other end intact and repentant and reconciled..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
C.S. Lewis wrote, "The greatest surprise for Satan will happen when he learns he has been doing the will of God all along."
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html
A BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.
Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.
How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?
Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."
THE MANY
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
The meaning of words that have been translated as "eternal", "forever", "incurable" in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
Ez. 16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
THE MILLENNIAL AGE
A snippet from THE MILLENNIAL AGE
We have seen that the Millennial age with all its glory is filled with judgment and with an iron rule; and that notwithstanding its unspeakable blessings and Israel's preeminence, it is far from a perfect state. It can not be the final age. The final age must come with the New Heavens and the New Earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."
THE MILLENIAL AGE
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch7millenial_age.html
I totally copy/pasted those last two posts! So I can easily reread the last one, and use the first one for reference. :thumbsup:
This whole thread would make an awesome book!
SOMETHING TO PONDER
THE NEW BIRTH CONTRASTED WITH THE NEW CREATION
http://concordant.org/expositions/human-destiny/new-birth-new-creation/
THE OFFER - Kenneth Larsen
Perhaps it's ill-conceived
The "Offer" – Kenneth Larsen
Imagine this scenario. An automobile manufacturer builds a vehicle
model which it hopes will become a great success. During testing,
however, it becomes apparent that the car suffers from a severe design
flaw and would pose an imminent danger to the public were it released
for sale. Instead of correcting the flaw, the manufacturer decides it
has a better idea; it mentions the flaw on page 122 of the owner's
manual and explains there how the owner can have the defect corrected
at the nearest dealership "free of charge".
Does it appear rather lopsided that the vehicle is sold to
unsuspecting customers with little if any mention of the design
defect? Does it appear rather absurd that the responsibility for
discovering the dangerous defect and having it corrected falls upon
the buyer, when the builder could have fixed the problem before taking
the car to market?
Imagine this scenario. Because of the sin of our forefather, Adam, we
all inherit sin and mortality. None of us are tested as he was, in
order to see if we will be a righteous person or a sinner; we are all
given mortality. Our choices have nothing to do with our present
condition as sinners; we are born that way.
As for salvation from sin and death, that will depend on finding the
proper message and acting on it in an effective manner; otherwise the
condition we inherit at birth will be our everlasting downfall.
Does it appear rather lopsided that the condemnation is universal and
our choice has nothing to do with it, but our salvation from that
condemnation requires our active participation? Does it appear rather
absurd that the responsibility for obtaining salvation depends, in the
final analysis, upon each individual, while we are in no way
responsibe for our needing that salvation in the first place? Doesn't
it seem strange that perdition is an inherited condition, while
salvation is only an "offer" made to those fortunate enough to stumble
upon it?
Fact is, salvation is not an offer we happen upon; it's a gift. And a
Savior is One Who saves. In 1 Timothy 4:9-11, we read, "Faithful is
the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and
being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour
of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and
teaching." God is the Savior of all mankind, for salvation is the
destiny of all. 1 Cor. 15:20-28; 1 Tim. 4:10; Jn. 12:32; Col. 1:20;
Eph. 1:10; Ro. 5:18, 19; Phil. 2:9-11. God is the Savior of believers
especially because He prefers some from the beginning for salvation
now and during the eons of the eons (2 Thes. 2:13; Rev. 20:4, 5).
Others are vessels of indignation, as indicated in Romans 9, and will
not be saved until the consummation mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:24.
Salvation is not an "offer"; God enlightens all, at the time He
chooses. John 1:9-13.
YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID – Kenneth Larsen
"You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy. Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For if ever you should love those who are loving you, what wages have you? Are not the tribute collectors also doing the same? And if ever you should greet your brothers only, what are you doing that is excessive? Are not those of the nations also doing the same? You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt. 5:43-48.
You have heard that it was said, "God hates those people so much He's going to torment them in the flames."
But God says, "To no one render evil for evil; rather, conquer evil with good. In doing this, you will be heaping embers of fire on his head." Ro. 12:17-21.
You have heard that it was said, "God offers salvation to all mankind, but only saves those who believe before they die."
But God says, "I AM the living God, the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." 1 Timothy 4:10, 11.
You have heard that it was said, "Some people are impossible to save; their stubborn will is just too strong!"
But God says, "With Me nothing is impossible; no one is stronger than Me!" Matt. 19:25, 26; 1 Cor. 10:22.
You have heard that it was said, "God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can't do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they're hopeless."
But God says, "Through Christ I will reconcile all to Myself (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." Colossians 1:20, 21.
You have heard that it was said, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, all those who are in Christ shall be vivified."
But God says, "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 1 Cor. 15:22.
You have heard that it was said, "Seek God and you'll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you're lost, it will be your own fault."
But God says, "No one is seeking Me. All avoid Me. Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of My mercy." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
WORTH REPEATING
#1 - A SNIPPET FROM REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my earthly hero and mentor)
"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."
#2 – A SNIPPET FROM ALL IN ALL – A.E. KNOCH
"The terms translated 'forever' and 'everlasting' and 'never' are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Destruction, like salvation, is eonian. It is not the end or aim of God. God destroys nothing that He will not restore. He loses nothing that will not return to Him laden with praise and glory for Himself. Destruction is a passing process, not a finished goal. Through God it will work out the welfare of all of His creatures and the glory of our Saviour."
#3 – A SNIPPET FROM THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
"I, for one, freely confess that, without a knowledge of the consummation, when God will reconcile all and become All in all, I could not have confidence in a deity who allowed the world to work itself into such a mess, and who can do little more for most men than to sweep them into destruction, extinction or torment.
But now, how can I distrust God? Mankind is just where He has brought it. The effect of all the present evil and distress will be salutary. God will get glory out of it, and men will be prepared by it to appreciate the gifts He has in store for them all."
#4 – A SNIPPET FROM THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
"The corrective effects of kolasis aionios last forever. But as a means to an end, it will not last any longer than is necessary to produce the end for which it exists in the first place.
When we finally weary of our own selfishness, petty jealousies, and lust for power; when we learn at last, perhaps through bitter experience, that these lead only to ruin and cannot bring enduring happiness, that nothing short of union with God and reconciliation with others will satisfy our own deepest yearnings; when we discover that the Hound of Heaven has finally closed off every alternative to such a union, we shall then, each of us, finally embrace the destiny that is ours."
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
Amen.. when will "all the ends of earth.. remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations.. worship before Him"? Psalm 22:27. (Has to be between the general resurrection and the "all in all" event??) Jesus said He will draw all to Himself.. Jn.12:32.
#5 – A SNIPPET FROM A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
"We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called supreme goodness.
In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.
We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God's creatures miserable; and this is called badness.
Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures? No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close."
#6 – A SNIPPET FROM SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
"By insisting on an interpreted translation of a Greek word, would you have the vast majority of men damned to an everlasting torture in order that you may feel quite sure that your timid soul will sit and sing itself away in everlasting bliss?
The main object of this book is to encourage those who faintly trust "the larger hope" to commit themselves to it wholly and fearlessly by showing them that they have ample warrant for it in scriptures of the New Testament."
That sounds like an awesome book for those not fully convinced! / not able to see it so plainly in the scriptures.. or maybe they don’t read the Bible enough to see it..
I think the problem is, is the church tells these people how to interpret Scriptures, and force feeds doctrine baggage, so they see some of these verses, and automatically think of it through their doctrines, and not through the Spirit.
#7 – A SNIPPET FROM GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
"Sinners do not go away into everlasting punishment. They go into eonian correction. Thank God for the Concordant literal translation, which some in their blindness are condemning. When leaders in the church today condemn something I would be the first one to rush out and get it and examine it for myself. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the majority have the truth. It has never been that way and it is not now.
The unscriptural tradition assigning a limit beyond which Christ has no power to save the obstinate sinner has spread universally. It is worldwide. It claims that the will of man can successfully oppose the power and will of God. "God wills all mankind to be saved" (1Tim.2:4). Let us follow our Lord in His denunciation of tradition that makes void the word of God. Let us revel in the full extent of Christ's work and God's victory for all mankind."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
And amen ML..
I continue to be pleasantly surprised that there are many (although really a small number in the entire scheme of things) that believe that God will save ALL. :banana:
#8 – A SNIPPET FROM THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
"God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.
To some, evil is never to cease. God is never able, as they see it, to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent, whereas the only freedom of man which the scriptures affirm is the freedom of deliverance we find alone in Christ Jesus."
#9 – A SNIPPET FROM A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
"The deliverance of the whole human family from sin and sorrow, its final holiness and happiness, has been the thought of multitudes, even when the prevailing doctrines around them were wholly hostile."
A book of quotes by a multitude of believers in universal salvation.
#10 – A SNIPPET FROM TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
"Does God not love His enemies, even as He has taught us to love ours? If He fails to reconcile even one, must it not be due to a lack of love, or of power? These qualities find their source in Him! So of a certainty He shall bring circumstances to bear which shall ultimately cause all to know, with understanding, His great love manifested in the gift of His Son, and this in turn shall fill each heart with adoration and love, and praise to God.
When God's plans for the ages of time (eonian times) have been accomplished, every experience of man will, under the guidance of His wisdom, work together with every other experience for man's highest ultimate good, and thus redound to God's honour and glory."
#11 – A SNIPPET FROM A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
"The adjective aionios, in the case of the wicked, is restricted to a limited period by its noun kolasis; of which the literal sense is clipping or pruning. It means the kind of punishment which tends to the improvement of the criminal. If endless were the sense of the adjective describing chastisement, it would represent God as acting under the influence of an endlessly vain expectation.
The belief of the Universalist includes a reconciliation of the tenets of Calvinism and Arminianism, by uniting the leading doctrines of both as far as they are found in the Scriptures; from which union they believe that the sentiment of Universal Restoration naturally flows."
#12 – A SNIPPET FROM THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
"It is a great giant, this one called eternal hell!!! It can only be killed by the stone of truth taken from the running waters of God's word. These waters have been running for a long time, but the stone to kill the giant is ready now.
God told Israel to set everything free in the year of Jubilee. God is going to have a Jubilee in totality over all sin, all death, and all destruction in this world. This world belongs to God and it shall be restored and shine with glory. God's tapestry is unrolling bit by bit, and when it is all unrolled, the great Jubilee of rest for the entire universe will be unveiled."
#13 – A SNIPPET FROM TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY - G.T. STEVENSON
"Many plain direct statements in the sacred scriptures declare that the purpose of God through our Lord Jesus Christ is to bless all humanity and to bring the whole universe into harmony with Himself.
How can this be if myriads of mankind whom He so loves were to be kept alive forever in hopeless misery? And what kind of a god could love the sinner with Calvary love until he died, and then leave him in indescribable suffering eternally?"
#14 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
"The great enmity of mankind is but a background to magnify and display the far greater love of our God. Such love is as measureless as it is timeless; a vast portion being yet unrevealed. 'And having made peace through the blood of Christ's cross, by Him to reconcile all unto Himself, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.' This plan of the ages is our Lord's ultimate purpose according to the declared will of Almighty God. This is the divine destiny of all in His creation. This is love that never fails."
#15 – A SNIPPET FROM IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
"Many Christian ministers seek only to search out passages of scripture that corroborate the eternal hell school of theology to which they belong; and whatever passages are unfortunately found in conflict are put through the required interpretations and contortions to disqualify for entry. Christian ministers all have posts to fill; they have a job to hold down; wherefore they dare not reach out for truth lest they should see too much and their conscience disturb them and their livelihood be imperilled."
#16 – A SNIPPET FROM THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by Thomas Whittemore in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote his book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.
#17 – A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
See the first item under APPENDIX
AIDIOS – AN IMPORTANT WORD CONSIDERED
#18 - A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
"The original terms translated everlasting, eternal, forever, are often employed in the Bible, as well as other writings under various limitations of import and are thus withdrawn from the predicament of meaning endless duration.
Since the terms do not necessarily signify an interminable duration, and since there is in the present instance to be pleaded for admitting a limited interpretation, a reason in the moral estimate of things of stupendous infinite urgency involving our perceptions of the divine goodness, and leaving those conceptions overwhelmed in darkness and horror if it be rejected, I therefore conclude that a limited interpretation is authorized."
#19 - IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
"The plan of God, or as it literally reads 'according to the plan of the ages' (Eph.3:11) will work out as God purposed; It will not fail. God shall be All in all (1Cor.15:28). The saving work of Christ will continue throughout the ages, for Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for the ages (Heb.13:8). God's purpose and plan in creation, redemption, and new creation will then be clearly apprehended by all, and His character will be unveiled and vindicated."
#20 - THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.
On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meagre man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "
#21 - THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
"Some say that if it can be proved that the punishment of the wicked will have an end, the same argument will prove that the life of the righteous will also end. But this is too much to take for granted on such a premise. Aionios does not of itself indicate either the limited or unlimited duration of anything, but its duration in each case depends on the nature of that to which it is applied.
Colored glasses give color to whatever men look at, and it is difficult for many to divest themselves of the influence of former teaching so far as to be willing to look at a thing from the standpoint of another.
Some of us have done this however. Though trained in the old school of thought, we have been enabled, by a careful examination of the Scriptures, to throw off the old idea and to accept the larger and better hope. And we are assured that the plan of the ages with its progressive revelation, and the general scope and spirit of the gospel as a revelation of the infinite love and wisdom of God, are far stronger evidence of the final victory of Christ in saving all men, than the mere definition of any word could be."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
#22 - AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, "One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject." (unquote)
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
ENJOY!
Gary Amirault interviews Greek scholar Louis Abbott about his belief that the Bible teaches universal salvation (in eight parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJoNxjUAAi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuoRnAsugew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAsVTXJYEHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_sblmYiX4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfx6tcwq3M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM5fSRDxVwg
http://tentmaker.org/video2/tag/athiest/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoWeKXdNhyg
#23 - DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
(These 254 pages are essentially an explanation of why he makes the following statement)
"The whole of scripture is full of the proclamation of a salvation that binds all men by a Redeemer Who gathers together and reconciles the whole universe. That is quite sufficient to enable us to hope for the salvation of all men without thereby coming into contradiction with the Word of God."
#24 - GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
"We do not wish to belittle the awful judgments of God. They will be terrible enough. But we desire to get all the perspective of Scripture and look to the end God has in view.
We do not believe that orthodox theology has done this. It has stopped short in the ages themselves and has misnamed them eternity, and has therefore presented the vision of a heaven full of saints and a hell full of tortured sinners in endless existence. In such a survey of the ultimate there is no place for the vision that Paul gives when God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
We contend that nothing less than the reconciliation of all would satisfy the heart of God and be a fitting consummation to the shedding of the blood of His Son."
#25 - A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God."
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]
The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (unquote)
This is his comment regarding Matthew 25:46.
#26 - THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
"The crowning glory of the 'good news' or evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to bring to the 'gentiles' or nations, is the revelation that He will reconcile all to God.
What a marvellous outcome of God's purpose! What a wonderful Christ Who can accomplish such a complete and glorious reconciliation! All creatures, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, reconciled in perfect peace to the great love of God through the Son of His love.
More of these untraceable honours and glories of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to reveal, could be pointed out with delight, but these will suffice to increase our faith, enrich our joy and brighten our expectation 'in Him in Whom our lot was cast also,' Christ Jesus our Lord, Life, and Head!"
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 21, 2018, 11:33:09 AM
#25 - A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
“I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.”
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]
The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." (unquote)
This is his comment regarding Matthew 25:46.
Amen! To all RT’s posts! :gsmile:
Also, this kolasis occurs at His return.. so I have to think it is kolasis/correction and a separating of goats and sheep, wheat and tares, which occurs when Jesus returns.. ET blended the following ages, after this one, obscuring UR. Because ET believes “the Judgment” to be concurrent with Jesus’ return?A judgment and penalty (ET think)
before ‘trial’/judgment.. But Jesus said things like “at the judgment”... the “Queen of the south will rise up and say to the Pharisees and Sadducees..” And how “Sodom and Gomorrah will fare better at the judgment” than cities of Israel who rejected Him.. Or ET believes “the Judgment” to be each individual at their death w/o trial or advocate.. And ET does not discern the difference between wheat and tares (sheep and goats-which we all have been) and wheat and chaff. Often equating chaff with the not (yet) saved.. as throwaway!! :faint:
#27 - CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
'This is life eternal' should be 'the life of the ages,' i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The 'eternal covenant' is the 'covenant of the ages,' the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The 'eternal purpose' is really the purpose of 'the ages,' i.e. developed and worked out in 'the ages.'
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ's work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages 'cometh the end' when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
:clapping:
An article by Thomas Allin in the link below really helps to clarify the plan of God by explaining the truth about meaning of eons and debunking the idea of eternity and for ever and ever (none scriptural words). :friendstu:
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Allin/allin.htm
Quote from: joeteekay on December 23, 2018, 05:38:40 PM
An article by Thomas Allin in the link below really helps to clarify the plan of God by explaining the truth about meaning of eons and debunking the idea of eternity and for ever and ever (none scriptural words). :friendstu:
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Allin/allin.htm
Amen..! I love how the author ends -
Quote
Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible. They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working.
In these repeated instances [of the different combinations of the terms aion and aionios in the Greek] there must be some definite purpose in the use of these peculiar terms; and we must deeply regret the unfairness and inconsistency which in the case of aion mars and renders unfair our versions. Thus it would be interesting to ask on what principle our Revisers have in one brief epistle employed FIVE different words (or phrases) to translate this one word, aion, e.g., Eph. i. 21; ii. 2,7; iii. 11, 21, e.g., "world," "course," "age," "eternal," "for ever." Such are the devious ways of our teachers, and our translators.
I loved RT's last post
(well all actually!) because the author sounds a bit like what Paul wrote (Eph.2:7) Berean Study Version
In order that in the coming ages, He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 23, 2018, 10:53:49 AM
#27 - CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
‘This is life eternal’ should be ‘the life of the ages,’ i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The ‘eternal covenant’ is the ‘covenant of the ages,’ the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The ‘eternal purpose’ is really the purpose of ‘the ages,’ i.e. developed and worked out in ‘the ages.’
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ’s work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages ‘cometh the end’ when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28).
:Chinscratch: ..this thinking, to me.. implies, no humans going to lof..? Unless it is within, occurring during - in Jesus’ words - the Judgment? As it pertained within to those who are saved / reconciled during this lifetime..? (The 2 of rev.19 being an institution and prevalent worldly belief “active” at the time of Jesus’ return..? And
not humans cast to lof)
#28 - THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
From the time of the apostles to the era of the reformation 1498.
"I have been careful to state, in his own words, the opinion of every Christian author extant concerning future punishment and the eventual salvation of the world. This history contains an account of every individual of note whom we have now the means of knowing to have been a universalist."
#29 - THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
Contains the writings of several hundreds of Christian Universalists from 1498 to 1830.
A snippet from Thomas Whittemore reads, "I cannot permit this opportunity to pass without expressing my heart felt acknowledgements to that Being Who has preserved my health and enabled me to finish this work in the midst of other pressing and incessant duties. May my confidence in Him never be diminished."
#30 – THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
"It is argued that whatever be the meaning of the word aionios in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving. But the truth is that this word describes not the quantity or duration, but the quality of that which it is predicated.
The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means 'pruning' and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing."
#31 - YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
"Lord, did you really say in Your word what I used to believe You said? Is it actually ok with You that people will spend eternity in hell? No, no, a thousand times no! You do not say that - and I am so relieved. Because had You said that, it would follow that I would have to think of You as worse than a murderer, that is, as a tormentor. If a person is murdered at least the possibility of torture and torment is past. But if I were to believe that You have prepared an eternal hell for some, I would also have to believe that You can be happy while you are tormenting people eternally."
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 27, 2018, 10:46:15 AM
#31 - YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
"Lord, did you really say in Your word what I used to believe You said? Is it actually ok with You that people will spend eternity in hell? No, no, a thousand times no! You do not say that - and I am so relieved. Because had You said that, it would follow that I would have to think of You as worse than a murderer, that is, as a tormentor. If a person is murdered at least the possibility of torture and torment is past. But if I were to believe that You have prepared an eternal hell for some, I would also have to believe that You can be happy while you are tormenting people eternally."
Amen!!!!
#32 - THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
"I am assured that goodness is the foundation, and happiness is the end of all the ways of God, to myself and every creature. Hope is the anchor of my soul, sure and steadfast; for though 'His ways should be in the deep and His paths in the mighty waters;' though I should experience every external evil; no affliction shall shake my confidence. Never will I dishonour by a moment's distrust, a Being Who has in mercy commanded me to 'cast all my care upon Him;' because 'He careth for me.'
I have in the whole of this treatise, in establishing the doctrine of perfect goodness, and following it in its consequences; constantly combated such erroneous opinions as represent the Creator of the human race as a Being Whose power will be employed in inflicting never ending torments on a portion of His creatures, and I have established the non-eternity of future torments."
#33 - HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
(recently published and can be downloaded FREE, and read online)
"Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one's will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a 'free' will, but an 'enslaved' will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind."
Believers in eternal torment will probably not want to have anything to do with this link, but others on this forum might.
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.
HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/
In my opinion, this is the best book ever written in support of the belief that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal transformation, not eternal suffering, or even annihilation.
And I say that, after having read several dozens of them.
#34 - AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all.
The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."
#35 -THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
"It may be questioned whether we understand the terms 'forever,' 'forever and ever,' and 'everlasting,' aright, for these terms are used in divers places as things that have an end and are understood in a limited and qualified sense. These terms are too weak a foundation to build an assertion of everlasting hell upon, as concludes and shuts up God forever in wrath, never to come forth in the exercise of mercy. Whether or not there is an ending is not revealed by the use of these terms.
O my God, Thou art love and canst no more cease to be so than to be Thyself. Take Thy own methods with us, and submit us to them. Well may we do so in an assurance that the beginning, the way, and the end of them all is love. I must believe then that Thy grace will super-abound wherever sin hath most abounded."
#36 - THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
"In 1Timothy 2: 5&6 we read, 'For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras).' This scripture defines the purpose of God through the name Jesus. Thus God exalts His Son, so at the name of Jesus, the name which means that He is salvation, 'every knee shall be bowing and every tongue shall be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.' Philippians 2:9-11.
The name of Jesus must not be held in contempt. It must be exalted. How could those who bow the knee and acknowledge Him as Lord ever thus dishonour the name of Jesus, which they would be doing if they were lost? It was Jesus who died to save them as He gave His life a correspondent ransom for all. God will exalt that precious name as He transports us all into the kingdom of the Son of His love."
#37 - UNION – JAMES RELLY
In his book UNION, Relly presents scriptural texts for the view that universal salvation is assured. He argues that Jesus Christ's union with all human beings, and His assumption of their guilt for their sins ensures that the entire human race will be saved.
He further argues that faith is the result, not the cause, of experiencing the saving power of God.
He wrote, "Man, being the vessel marred between the Potter's hands is not rejected, but made into another and better vessel." (Jeremiah 18:2).
#38 - THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.
Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."
#39 - THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."
This is a great thought. For me, it helps to make the picture of just how UR works, more cohesive. That is sort of the place I am at in my walk with UR. I want to be able to understand, interpret, and explain a seamless explanation, based on Bible readings.
Thank you, Roger!
D.
My pleasure Dandelion :-)
#40 - GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
"From the beginning God was and always will be a God of all grace. He purposes to be All in all of His creation; but every man in his own foreordained and previously marked out order. No doctrine is of God that does not include, 'Having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His own benevolent design, which He previously purposed in Himself: that in the fullness of the ages He will gather together in one all in Christ, both those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth, even in Him.'
It is wrong to teach that this age of grace will soon end. In our redeemed bodies we will be righteous, and in the ages to come we will be teaching the grace of God to others."
Quote from: Dandelion on January 05, 2019, 05:14:41 AM
This is a great thought. For me, it helps to make the picture of just how UR works, more cohesive. That is sort of the place I am at in my walk with UR. I want to be able to understand, interpret, and explain a seamless explanation, based on Bible readings.
Thank you, Roger!
D.
Amen!!
..And I think of it as worse case scenario.. if there is no repentance and reconciliation upon Judgment 'Day', then there is lof "for a duration"..
"is a death, not a lifetime" I like that! :thumbsup:
#41 - HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of aion.
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the Greek noun aion must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal continues."
...wow I never noticed how in Daniel 7:14 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/7-14.htm -
The "everlasting" isn't olam but alam, more closely "perpetual" than olam..
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5957.htm
7:14 - "And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."
:Chinscratch: Very interesting! :ty: The Lord bless!
#42 - THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love."
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
#43 - THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC – LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD
The following is my all-time favorite quote. I've had it memorized for many years and I quote it frequently. As a staunch universalist, Leslie Weatherhead meant it to include everyone without exception, after everyone who needs it experiences kolasis aionion, or age-during corrective chastisement.
"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
#44 - TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
"Modern theology has so long circumvented our thinking and teaching to the biased idea that God will save only part of His creation and so limited His redemptive powers that we have forgotten that with God all things are possible and shall be wrought out in due time. God has a definite schedule for saving His creatures, and there is nothing that can withstand His purpose.
Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. It is all a part of God's purpose of the ages and redemption's glory will only shine out the more after the plan's execution. God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control."
#45 - THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
" 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD." 1John 4:14.
'Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the truth' 1Tim. 2:4.
This is not a pitting of man's will against the will of God as some try to teach, with man's will able to resist and hold out until God cannot change him, but must throw him into some eternal cesspool to be tormented. NAY – for we read that 'He is working out all things after the counsel of His own will,' and man cannot disannul that which HE has willed. It is God's will that all shall come to Christ. He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Why then shall we be so foolish as to dispute the immutability of His truth?"
#46 - THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
"God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God's will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
#47 - DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
"We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God's judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God's judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil.
Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
#48 - THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
"Today every warden in the U.S. endorses the ideal of rehabilitation. Shall we say then that God is less reasonable than His creatures? No! God's punishments exist not for vindictive suffering, but rather for remedy! Praise His Holy Name!
God works with a glorious end in view. We have viewed the judgments of God against sin and unrighteousness as the end, when in reality they are only a means to an end. The revelation of scriptural truth does not view God's judgments in the ages to come as vindictive, as if to say that God is vengeful, implacable, and hateful against men (as all too often those who profess His Name appear to be!), This insight into God's purposes in judgment rather declares that these judgments are remedial, that they exist to effect a positive divine end for everyone.
Christ died "to reconcile all unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross" Colossians 1:20. The all saving Cross of Christ will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinner have no more a name among the creatures of God."
:thumbsup:He will/has made an END OF SIN! Timely post Roger...TY.
Quote from: rodgertutt on January 14, 2019, 11:14:58 AM
#48 - THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
"Today every warden in the U.S. endorses the ideal of rehabilitation. Shall we say then that God is less reasonable than His creatures? No! God's punishments exist not for vindictive suffering, but rather for remedy! Praise His Holy Name!
God works with a glorious end in view. We have viewed the judgments of God against sin and unrighteousness as the end, when in reality they are only a means to an end. The revelation of scriptural truth does not view God's judgments in the ages to come as vindictive, as if to say that God is vengeful, implacable, and hateful against men (as all too often those who profess His Name appear to be!), This insight into God's purposes in judgment rather declares that these judgments are remedial, that they exist to effect a positive divine end for everyone.
Christ died "to reconcile all unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross" Colossians 1:20. The all saving Cross of Christ will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinner have no more a name among the creatures of God."
Beautiful!
#49 - THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
"God says He will reconcile all; the whole creation shall ultimately be delivered, and every created thing shall finally praise God (Revelation 5:13).
The point that I wish the reader especially to note is that the final accomplishment of this purpose of God depends on Himself, and not on man. The creature may fail, the Creator never fails; and no amount of blunders, mistakes, failures or perversions of the creature shall disarrange or thwart the plans of the Creator. This is the true basis of redemption."
#50 - THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"To know the true and living God 'out of Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:6, is to recognize that His purpose for His creatures can only be loving, wise, righteous, and good.
To know Jesus Christ, 'through Whom all is' 1Cor. 8:8, is to know that God's purpose cannot fail. Shall we who know Him and have had ours eyes opened to the glorious triumph of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ sit idly by and let reproach be heaped upon His Name without protesting?
Think how the teaching of endless punishment slanders God and Jesus Christ! We know Christ died for all (1Tim. 2:6). Does God lack the goodness, the power, the love, the grace to save all? God declares that judgment is eonian; man says it is everlasting. Let us believe God and not man."
Joseph Kirk
#51 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"Regarding the argument that if the punishment of the unbelievers has an end, then the life of the believers has an end also at the end of the ages.
But life cannot end at that time because death is abolished (1Cor. 15:26). The life of the eons ends when all are vivified at the end or consummation of the eons (1Cor. 15:24).
Life itself, however, continues on interminably."
"Regarding the argument that in 2Cor. 4:18 eonian must mean eternal because it is set in contrast with the word temporal meaning enduring for time as opposed to eternity.
But the Greek word translated temporal has no connection with the word for time; it is literally 'toward season,' and means temporary or for the era. In this passage eonian is used in contrast between our afflictions which last for a brief season, and our promised long enduring eonian glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation when God become All in all."
William C. Rebman
#52 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"What was done cannot be undone. The work of God and the obedience of Christ on Golgotha is not something conditional on whether or not we believe it or respond to it or prepare ourselves for it. It has already happened, and its effects are unstoppable. The consequence of the obedience of Christ is that every descendant of Adam will be constituted righteous. When Christ died, God was there in Him conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offences to them (2Cor. 5:19). Peace is not made by us; it is made by God in the death of His Son. And now God is entreating through us that this peace might be recognized and enjoyed (2Cor. 5:20)."
Dean Hough
TY Roger,another timely word of truth,spoken at the right time..
A time for everything Eccl ch 3therewas atime..when we were all scattered,lost,cast away,dying,torn,warring and torn down in
Adam. In Christ there is a time to build up,gather in peace,love,healing,living,searched for,kept,built up. :2c:
TIME,TIMES,AND THE DIVIDING OF THE TIMES.
#53 - SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
"The use of 'forever and ever' instead of the accurate rendering 'for the eons of the eons,' is a gross mistranslation. Most translators simply lacked the insight to see the point of many of the passages that speak of the eons. Since they were able, however, to make sense of these passages by translating by 'everlasting' or 'eternal,' they simply went ahead and did so, any resultant problems notwithstanding. Due to a lack of sensible thinking it was impossible for them to face the fact that the usual translations of this word are quite mistaken and extremely harmful!"
James Coram
#54 - UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
By way of introduction Knoch wrote
"In this little handbook we tear away the false traditions of Christendom first. Then we remove the dark cover which philosophical mistranslations have laid over God's Book. With these gone all that is necessary is to read God's message to us more carefully, and its overwhelmingly glorious solution of this vexed problem illuminates our minds and flood our hearts with exultant joy and praise and adoration to the God of all grace and glory."
Then, by way of conclusion at the end of His book Knoch wrote
"We have considered the traditions of Christendom which darken this subject and found them unscriptural. My love to God and my admiration have increased unutterably since I have seen that He is not the defeated fiend of Christendom, but is fully able to cope with evil and sin, and bind them all to the chariot wheels of love. All His attributes, including holiness, and righteousness, serve in the livery of love. Adored be His Name!"
#55 - CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
"Before the last age is over, every knee in heaven and in earth and under the earth will have bowed to Christ, and every tongue will have confessed to God that He is Lord to the glory of God (Phil. 2:10). 'In the name of Jesus' (literal translation) signifies much more than is implied by the simple use of the Name in speech. According to the idiom it signifies 'in the very nature of Jesus,' and as no man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3), we know that there will be no hypocritical confession, nor will there be any confession by compulsion, but a true confession of Christ by every creature in the universe, and that to the glory of God the Father."
A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
Bible scholars and church historians are acknowledging that early Christians were taught by Jesus and the apostles that ALL mankind would ultimately be saved. Discover how the heathen concept of Hell crept into the church and then on to the pages of many Bible translations.
Tentmaker Ministries website contains hundreds of articles and books explaining how this happened and its horrible effect on mankind. We also make available many other resources for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.
Experience your heavenly Father's unfailing love for you. Be set free from the fear that you or a loved one may be eternally damned to Hell."
Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Good to see you back Rodger and posting , been thinking of you brother !!!! :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 01, 2019, 01:20:11 AM
A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
Bible scholars and church historians are acknowledging that early Christians were taught by Jesus and the apostles that ALL mankind would ultimately be saved. Discover how the heathen concept of Hell crept into the church and then on to the pages of many Bible translations.
Tentmaker Ministries website contains hundreds of articles and books explaining how this happened and its horrible effect on mankind. We also make available many other resources for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.
Experience your heavenly Father's unfailing love for you. Be set free from the fear that you or a loved one may be eternally damned to Hell."
Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries
:thumbsup: