SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

The answer to the afterthought would be, because murder is an egregious sin, and life is His will or it would not occur in the first place. Think how twisted a mind, to take from a child the prospect of life, in order to preserve them from the horror of hell. The wicked testimony that God would torment the innocent forever has unimaginable consequences. What an ignorant monster Calvin was, to regard God as such a monster to elect babies for bliss and others for eternal torment.

Anna Letitia Barbuald
"Surely this age (the eighteenth century) which has demolished dungeons, rejected torture, and given so fair a prospect of abolishing the iniquity of the slave trade, cannot long retain among its articles of belief, the gloomy perplexities of Calvinism, and the heart-withering perspective of cruel and never-ending punishments."

Robert Southy (1774 -1843) wrote, "In the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, and so impious as Calvinism."

[eaglesway]

In those days such a statement could get you murdered by Calvin by burning upon a stake.

[marie glen]

The answer to the afterthought would be, because murder is an egregious sin, and life is His will or it would not occur in the first place. Think how twisted a mind, to take from a child the prospect of life, in order to preserve them from the horror of hell. The wicked testimony that God would torment the innocent forever has unimaginable consequences. What an ignorant monster Calvin was, to regard God as such a monster to elect babies for bliss and others for eternal torment.

..we can discern/know/judge things by their fruit..

Anna Letitia Barbuald
"Surely this age (the eighteenth century) which has demolished dungeons, rejected torture, and given so fair a prospect of abolishing the iniquity of the slave trade, cannot long retain among its articles of belief, the gloomy perplexities of Calvinism, and the heart-withering perspective of cruel and never-ending punishments."

Robert Southy (1774 -1843) wrote, "In the worst and bloodiest idolatry that ever defiled the earth, there is nothing so horrid, so monstrous, and so impious as Calvinism."

She said it!! didn't she..

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #58

The Intimate Sovereign Control Of God

THE BBLE: God is in intimate sovereign control over what the Bible means to each individual. God also controls the extent to which we will try to change the mind of others about the meaning of the Bible, and He controls the extent to which we will be successful in changing the mind of others.
I personally believe that the Bible teaches the following things about -

THE WILL: God is in intimate sovereign control over the will of every created being. The only "free will" that anyone has is to choose in the direction of the strongest influence. Every choice we make is the product of influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought upon to bear upon us right now, and God sovereignly controls these influences. We are accountable for every choice but we are not responsible for it; God is. Every choice we make is the only one we could have made, and God will see to it that the result of every choice will be used to fit us into His master-plan in our own unique way. All loss is temporary. Even Esau's loss was only a loss from the human point of view. From God's point of view Esau was fulfilling His predetermined plan. Esau's apparent loss was God's way of fitting Esau into His master-plan in His own unique way. Even rewards are predetermined, and are the result of responses to God's undefeatable grace. God's grace can only be resisted temporarily, for the purpose of teaching us lessons. We are not robots, but we do have one thing in common with robots. Everything we are is the product of causality. The Bible calls us "vessels," some of honor, and some of dishonor, with most of us somewhere in between. Satan's greatest delusion is that he thinks he has a free will. Many believers in Christ suffer from this same delusion, but God is in intimate sovereign control over every delusion. God will never influence His creatures against their will, but in every case He will influence their wills to change, for their own good, and for His own glory. Any suffering that follows the great white throne of judgment will be for the purpose of influencing our will for our own good. Everyone is believing what they are supposed to be believing at any given point in time, and they will not change their beliefs until God wants them to.

SALVATION: God is in intimate sovereign control over everyone's salvation. The essential meaning of salvation is that God will change every negative thing that happened into something better that it happened than if it had not happened. And God will do it for every human and every evil spirit, including Satan. Salvation is a process that will be completed for the first fruits of election at the first resurrection, and for the rest of us after the second resurrection. God is in intimate sovereign control of the timing of that process, and He will not fail to fit everyone in a positive way into His master-plan. All of the negative consequences of sin and evil will be transformed for everyone. God will not just make it up to us. He will not just do a patch-up job. He will not just bring things back to where they were before sin came on the scene; but He will see to it that a far greater glory will result for everyone because sin temporarily prevailed than if it had not. I count it a great privilege and a gift from God that He has allowed me to see these things in the Bible. Only a comparatively few people see these things, so I consider myself especially blessed. I also believe that God is in intimate sovereign control over the reaction of everyone who reads these words.

GOD IS IN INTIMATE SOVEREIGN CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING ALL OF THE TIME.
What a wonderful thing to be able to believe.

[micah7:9]

The answer to the afterthought would be, because murder is an egregious sin, and life is His will or it would not occur in the first place. Think how twisted a mind, to take from a child the prospect of life, in order to preserve them from the horror of hell. The wicked testimony that God would torment the innocent forever has unimaginable consequences. What an ignorant monster Calvin was, to regard God as such a monster to elect babies for bliss and others for eternal torment.

I can almost believe going insane grew from Calvin's teaching.

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #59

MY OPINION

In my opinion, people who feel motivated to defend the doctrine of endless hell have been chosen by God to be vessels of the grossest dishonor, regardless as to how righteous the rest of their life appears to be. They have already sunk to the lowest level possible of moral debauchery.

In my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action is that people can believe in endless hell and not go stark-raving mad.

In my opinion, the Bible teaches universal transformation. In other words, it teaches that God will change every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened, including the sufferings that Satan must yet endure.

In my opinion, at some point in the future, God will reveal to everyone that the evangelical doctrine of endless hell is the blackest part of the canvas upon which God will paint the exceeding richness of His undefeatable grace.

In my opinion, everything that a person does is because they have to do it. In other words, everyone always responds to the strongest influence at any given point in time. It is God alone Who controls the interplay between good and evil, and He will work everything out for everyone's good in due time.

In my opinion, Satan, and all wicked beings are only doing what God wants them to do within the wise counsel of His decretive will (that which must occur). He wants everyone to rebel against His revealed will to the extent that He allows them to. Everyone will try to influence others to the extent that they feel they should, but they will only be as successful as God wants them to be.

In my opinion, people who claim to be "saved" are mistaken when they think they will not receive corrective punishment after their resurrection from the dead. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ removed the enmity between God and His creatures. But wrong attitudes cannot be forgiven. Wrong attitudes must change, and both people who claim to be "saved", and the rest of us, will receive corrective punishment for a length of time that God will decide for each individual.

In my opinion, people who read this page will say, "You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's what the Bible says that counts." And my reply is, "These opinions of mine are an expression of what I see in the Bible, and are an expression of the kind of God that I see in the Bible." In my opinion, it is God who controls how each person interprets the Bible.
In this great truth, I relax.

[micah7:9]

I rest in each of your opinions as Truth. Thank you.

[eaglesway]

In my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action is that people can believe in endless hell and not go stark-raving mad.

This is at the same time one of the saddest and one of the funniest things I hav ever read. Perhaps that is a definition of madness.  :eek:

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #60

CALVINISM / ARMINIANISM

Calvinism is a cruel and unloving profanity.
Arminianism is a proud and self -righteous profanity.
Calvinism is cruel and unloving because it claims that God allows beings to come into existence that deserve to suffer endlessly, and will suffer endlessly, except for a few that God will rescue from such a fate by His irresistible grace.
Arminianism is proud and self-righteous because it claims that only those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly. They claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyone's will, unless they let Him.
The Calvinist's god allows millions of beings to come into existence and either can not, or will not, do anything to stop them from suffering forever.
The Arminian's god lets us down just when we need Him the most. Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. The Arminian god either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.
A profanity is an idea conceived by our sinful hearts. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are profanities. Against the black background of these profanities God will paint the glorious masterpiece of Universal Transformation.
The truth of Universal Transformation solves all the irreconcilable differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It recognizes that our "free will" is the freedom to choose only in the direction of the strongest influence, and that God is in intimate sovereign control over all influences.
Each person is being fitted into God's master-plan in God's own special way for them. Each person responds to their own unique set of "strongest influences." And ultimately, when the time period of the ages has ended, God will have transformed the consequences of everyone's choices into something glorifying to Himself, and beneficial to the chooser.
It is unavoidable that how we think about God will affect our state of being. We tend to become like the god we worship. The one who puts their faith in Calvinism, tends to become cruel and unloving. The one who puts their faith in Arminianism, tends to become proud and self-righteous. If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. God often operates through people in spite of what they believe.
God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell". When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.
The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.

[eaglesway]

One the day where the secrets of mens hearts are revealed before the glory of the light of His countenance and the power of His overflowing love, how many tears of joy will be shed before Him from the hearts of those who are delivered from the lie that He could do so- torment men forever. And how many tears of shame by those who insisted against all evidence to the contrary that He would do so, speaking profane things against His character and against His gospel of glory, for their own glory.

[rosered]

One the day where the secrets of mens hearts are revealed before the glory of the light of His countenance and the power of His overflowing love, how many tears of joy will be shed before Him from the hearts of those who are delivered from the lie that He could do so- torment men forever. And how many tears of shame by those who insisted against all evidence to the contrary that He would do so, speaking profane things against His character and against His gospel of glory, for their own glory.

Amen to that !!

   When all the dead shall rise up out of the tombs of them cold and  dark /ignorant to the divine  holiness   and empty hearts[ them stony caverns]  hiding places   from the Light being the  Knowledge of God in His GLORY

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #61

Consequences

I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love or respect an endless - hell god. My breakdown was caused by my fear of what God might do to me since I was unable to love or respect Him.

One of the great comforts that helped me to recover was learning that many other people have suffered with the same problem. The following quote is from THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.

First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: "The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell."

Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
"Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?" End of Quote.

Note that the victims of this theology found no consolation in the Christian gospel. This was my problem too! The question I kept asking myself was, "How can I find comfort in the Christian Gospel when I can't even love or respect its God?"

In my library, I have several dozens of books, most of which I have read, and several hundred cassettes, by 29 different speakers, all of which I have listened to, some of them many times, by men who believe that the Bible (correctly translated) teaches universal transformation; that is, that God will eventually change all suffering into something better that it happened. These books and tapes answer, many times over, the arguments that I have read in seven, (plus parts of other) books in support of the idea that the Bible teaches never ending suffering for part of God's creation.

In addition to these sources, Hurley Books, Westmoreland, New Hampshire, lists 463 universalist books that can be purchased from them. It will be a comfort to many, as it was to me, to learn that there are so many people who see this kind of God in the Bible.

It is my great joy in life to make this information available to many people. God will use all my efforts as He sees fit. In this great truth I relax!

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #62

Good News

Many people are unable to believe on a Lord Jesus Christ who would allow anyone to want to, or have to suffer endlessly in hell. Because they cannot love or respect such a Christ, they are unable to put their trust in Him in a way that produces assurance of salvation. For these people, the following information will be good news:
GOD IS NOT GOING TO ALLOW ANYONE TO WANT TO, OR HAVE TO SUFFER FOREVER!
Some versions of the Bible have been mistranslated. The Greek noun "aion" means "age", not eternal. And the Greek adjective "aionios" means "of the ages", not forever or everlasting. The Greek text clearly teaches that the ages were made by God for a purpose. Ephesians 3:11 ("eternal purpose" should read "purpose of the ages"). They had a beginning, 11Tim 1:9 ("before the world began" should read "before times eonian"). And collectively, they will have an ending, Hebrews 9:26 ("in the end of the world" should read "at the conclusion of the eons"). The context of a verse  doesn't necessitate the use of the word "eternal." Even when referring to the attributes of God, the use of the word "eonian" doesn't mean that His attributes will change at the end of the ages. But at that point in time He will cease to be the "eonian God." He will no longer need to manifest mercy, longsuffering, or forgiveness, for His "eonian purpose" will have been completed and God will be "All In All" 1 Corinthians 15:28.
The phrase "forever and ever" is a mistranslation. In the Greek, the phrase sometimes reads "for the age of the ages" which refers to the last age, probably the one following the millennial age. It could appropriately be called "the age of consummation." In other verses, the phrase reads "for the ages of the ages" which probably refers to the millennial age and the age of consummation together. In the same way that "King of kings" and "Lord of lords": separate one from others, so does the phrase "age of ages." And in the same way that *"holies of the holies" would separate the holy place and the most holy place from the rest of the tabernacle, so does the phrase "the ages of the ages" separate the last two ages from the previous ones. The Sinaitic manuscript actually says "holies of Holies" instead of "Holy Places".

The true, Biblical teaching about the ages has been obscured through faulty translating. The translators introduced their own ideas into the text instead of using the proper English equivalents, "eon" and "eonian."
Not until the sixth century, did the belief in endless hell become prevalent within the Christian church. It is true that modern Greeks use "the ages of the ages" to denote an endless succession of ages, but this is due to the influence of the Greek Orthodox Church. That this expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of ages is established beyond doubt by comparing Revelation 11:14,15 with 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. In Revelation 11, Christ is said to reign "for the eons of the eons." In 1 Corinthians 15, the reign of Christ is said to end. Therefore, if He reigns for the eons of the eons and His reign ends, the eons of the eons cannot be endless. Furthermore, Hebrews 9:26 says that the eons, collectively, end, so regardless of their number, they will collectively end.

To be sure there will be judgment. Wrongs will be righted. To those who have sinned much it will mean much indignation and fury, affliction and distress, Romans 2:8-9. But God corrects and disciplines only for good. Even hardened sinners who have often cursed Him, will be thankful for the strokes that bring them back to God. Each one gets only what is good for them in the judgment, not to damn them forever, but to prepare them for God's salvation. If necessary, God will use a negative manifestation of His love, but negative or positive, He will keep loving, and keep loving until He has elicited a loving response from everyone.

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #63

DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED - 1 Cor. 15:20-28

Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."

RESPONSES:

Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.

Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.

Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.

"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.

If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.

I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"

If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"

If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God
the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.

My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is
similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.

James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html
See article above on this point also, for the likeness/parallel I
draw between, on the one hand, slavery, and on the other, death.

Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians 15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."

[Tom]

Amen

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

[RonnyTX]

"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."

Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that  way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-(  Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.

Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)

Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)

[rodgertutt]

"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."

Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that  way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-(  Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.

Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)

Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)

What a great testimony! Thanks for sharing that Ronny  :HeartThrob:

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #64

THE CIRCUMCISION EVANGEL VERSUS THE UNCIRCUMCISION EVANGEL
Bob Evely

As to the "why's" of God's plan; we can only speculate. The fact is that no man is deserving of grace, and God's method is to begin with a group He has called (the body of Christ) to display His grace to the remainder of humanity and to proclaim the evangel ... all toward the end that grace and salvation is realized by all.

As for the words of Jesus, we must remember these pertain to the kingdom to come upon the earth ... the restoration of Israel's kingdom. In many of Jesus' words we see that the "rules" are very works-based.  But later came a more full expression of grace, when God had demonstrated that NONE could earn righteousness thru works ... and with the "new rules" that Paul subsequently talked about, it is all grace and no works to boast of.

When Paul talks about the fact that some, based on behavior, would not enter the kingdom ... He is telling his audience that as it pertains to the earthly kingdom, these folks would be excluded. He says this to instill within them the idea that as a result of God's grace, they too should avoid these behaviors. The main difference in evangel's is that the Circumcision evangel told folks ... have faith and works. Paul's Uncircumcision evangel is simply have faith, as God has accomplished what man could not. We must remember that as we read various parts of the Scriptures that mankind is a work in progress. When we read of God's anger, or folks being excluded from the earthly kingdom, etc. ... this is a part of the process, thru which God is working toward His ultimate, eventual goal ... the salvation and reconciliation of all.

When folks tend to ask questions about specific objections, always try to get them to first look at the basic overall plan that God has in store for mankind. In other words, we must consider the Bible in total first to see how God is working in all ages ... and then we can worry about the specific questions. To jump into the questions too quickly takes the focus off of God's revelation in total.

[jbertonbounds]

"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."

Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that  way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-(  Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.

Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)

Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)

Wow, Ronny.  That IS a great testimony.  And you just described my life.  Before I embraced the truth of UR I would get that indescribable feeling of dread "knowing" almost all the people I knew and saw daily would spend eternity in hell. Football games were particularly hard, because of the shear numbers of "hell-bound" sinners, screaming and shouting.  Amusement parks were also difficult because of the pervasive, constant, audible screams of people riding rides - it just always made me think of hell.  Praise be to the Father for liberating me from that horror, which was always in the back of my mind.  My eyes well with tears of joy when I think about my new-found freedom in the Truth of the Word.

Yahweh has provided salvation, and gives good gifts! Blessed be his name.
Jesus the Lamb of God, our Savior, is full of love, forgiveness, and mercy.  He is worthy of all praise.
Yah's spirit is my guide, my comforter.

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #65

Love's Goal

All that love is, God is, for God is love. As the negative side of love is unselfish - seeketh not her own - so her positive side is concern for others, a deep, ardent, all consuming concern: dauntless, self-sacrificing, invincible. "Love never faileth." Such is the divine essence and this it is that is imparted to the creature.
There can be no self-complacency with God, neither could He provide a self-satisfied salvation. Divine joy is in the fullness of love, and love is all-embracing. To speak of a happy shepherd with an incomplete flock, or even of a happy flock with comrades missing, would be to malign both sheep and shepherd.
Heaven's joys will be full only when sin's sorrow cease. "Tis of mine" will be the yearning cry of the Good Shepherd spirit in the bosom of both saint and Saviour until the last of all the lost has been gathered home. Love cannot omit; His soul travail was for all. Neither can love abandon or forget. His purpose, as His promise, is "until He find it". Thus it is that He is yet to "see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied." And surely we too shall be satisfied when conformed to this likeness. Oh, the fullness of heaven's joy when sin's sorrows shall have ceased!
D. Buchanan

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #66

WHY?

Why did God make the universe, the earth and sky above?
Scripture gives the answer when it says that "God is Love".
Before God made the universe He worked out a master plan.
He knew how everything would end before it all began.

He made mankind so He could have an object for His love,
But man was blind and did not see that it came from above.
So God created evil as He had created night,
So man could see the good in Him - In darkness we see light.

He made the "blackboard" very black, with evil, sin, and woe.
He made an adversary to be His cunning foe.
He made the earth to be a "stage" to show the hosts above,
By all of our experiences, His wisdom and His love.

He locks up all in stubbornness to make His mercy clear;
Lets Satan lure all men away so He can draw all near.
He gives His only firstborn Son to die and save us all.
Yet each in his own class we read; we're blind until our call.

You ask me why God made the earth, the glittering stars above?
The Scriptures give the answer when they say that 'God is love".

Ray Prinzing

[Tom]

Amen

[RonnyTX]

"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."

Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that  way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-(  Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.

Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)

Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)

Rodger to Ronny:
What a great testimony! Thanks for sharing that Ronny  :HeartThrob:


Ronny to Rodger:
You're welcome Roger and I'm just so glad,that God has given me such to share. :-)

[RonnyTX]

"If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace."

Ronny:
Amen to that! And that I well know,for I was a Calvinist in belief,from the time I was taught to believe that  way in the local church,until I was 55 years old! And no,I was not unloving and cruel;but as this Rodger Tutt rightly says,that was entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace. What I was,was a person who tried not to think about,somethings I'd been taught to believe. For how can a person think on Calvinism,as they'ye been taught to believe it completely and at the same time,stay sane as they get older and meet more and more people,that they come to know and like? And it was worse for me,starting about 15 years ago,when I first got online. For then,I got into a lot of discuss groups,met a lot more people and really liked,the vast majority of them. Yet I'd been brought up in church, taught that the vast majority of those people,would be going to hell. :-(  Well,you can't believe that way and keep it in the forefront of your mind and stay sane. So you just have to try your best,not to think about such.

Thinking about the fruits of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,etc. Well,it's sure not believing in Calvinism,that brings those into a person's life. But when I heard about and came to see the truth of UR,universal reconciliation,then those fruits of the Spirit,they multiplied trememdously,in my life. :-) And to me,that is just another proof,of the great truth of UR. :-) For now I can go out in public,see all sorts of people and think on the fact,that I will one day,see them all again. :-) And by that time,we will all know the great love,that God/Jesus Christ has,for each and everyone of us,for us all! :-)

Just thinking this morning,if a person loves God/Jesus Christ and you love all people,then the only way that makes any sense,is universal reconciliation. That God will save all and that by way,of Jesus Christ and the cross. :-)

JBerton to Ronny:
Wow, Ronny.  That IS a great testimony.  And you just described my life.  Before I embraced the truth of UR I would get that indescribable feeling of dread "knowing" almost all the people I knew and saw daily would spend eternity in hell. Football games were particularly hard, because of the shear numbers of "hell-bound" sinners, screaming and shouting.  Amusement parks were also difficult because of the pervasive, constant, audible screams of people riding rides - it just always made me think of hell.  Praise be to the Father for liberating me from that horror, which was always in the back of my mind.  My eyes well with tears of joy when I think about my new-found freedom in the Truth of the Word.

Yahweh has provided salvation, and gives good gifts! Blessed be his name.
Jesus the Lamb of God, our Savior, is full of love, forgiveness, and mercy.  He is worthy of all praise.
Yah's spirit is my guide, my comforter.

Ronny to JBerton:
Amen,praise be to God,who liberated us from such! :-)

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #67

THE PLAN OF THE MASTER WEAVER

Our lives are but fine weavings
That God and we prepare,
Each life becomes a fabric planned
And fashioned in His care.

We may not always see just how
The weavings intertwine,
But we must trust the Master's hand
And follow His design,
For He can view the pattern
Upon the upper side,
While we must look from underneath
And trust in Him to guide...

Sometimes a strand of sorrow
Is added to His plan,
And though it's difficult for us,
We still must understand
That it's He who fills the shuttle,
It's He who knows what's best,
So we must weave in patience
And leave to Him the rest...

Not till the loom is silent
And the shuttles cease to fly
Shall God unroll the canvas
And explain the reason why ---
The dark threads are as needed
In the Weaver's skillful hand
As the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He has planned.

---Author Unknown

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #68

Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod

Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod