SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/part-9-choosing-choice/
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to use your "free" will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."

My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.

[rodgertutt]

Butch Cassidy

To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."

But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.

On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: AMEN! Especially about the atheism.. Very true! (He gave thinking ability! I often wish we humans would use it a bit more!)

[rodgertutt]

CHARLES SLAGLE

Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.

If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 78 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm

You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle

In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.

If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.

After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?

[rodgertutt]

Sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).

Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11

Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)

So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.

His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.

Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.

The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.

[jugghead]

Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.

I could not help but relate to what you said here, I have stated in my testimony in the beginning of my walk that what happened to me on December 12, 2005 was all Him

The only reason I have a desire to study His word is because HE put the hunger in me to do so, it was His hunger for me to know the truth,

I couldn't make the choice to be hungry because the dead can't get hungry, the dead can't make a choice, I was dead

I was only the recipient of that hunger (desire/want/will)

HE made the choice at the appointed time

First is the natural then the spiritual

The natural understanding is one of life in the physical body is our beginning and death of the physical body is our end
We are on the road to death. seeing only a natural understanding

The spiritual understanding is one of darkness/death in the spiritual body is our beginning and light/life in the spiritual body is our end
We are on the road to life, seeing only a spiritual understanding, death just becomes a doorway, not a destination

(and yes I know, there is a lot more to it than, just what, is stated)

my  :2c:

[rodgertutt]

THANKS JUGGHEAD   :thumbsup:

A DAY OF SALVATION

NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html

[rodgertutt]

DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED  -  1 Cor. 15:20-28

Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."

RESPONSES

Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the 1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.

Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.

Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.

"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.

If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.

I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"
If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"

If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.

My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.

James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one day, will be abolished.

Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages 66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19).
This blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."

[marie glen]

  :ty: I saved the link to this post so I can read it again! (I want to remember these answers.) :thumbsup:

[rodgertutt]

DECRETIVE WILL

I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God's decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God's preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.

[jugghead]

DECRETIVE WILL

I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God's decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God's preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.

Excellent explanation RT ..... Then I guess I am a theistic determinist also;

to take thought about what we OUGHT to do is to enter into our own works

to take thought about what He IS DOING is to enter into His rest to understand His work in us (what must/will be done)

focus on the things above (what must/will be done) not on the things below (what we ought to do)

It is His work in us that we can obey the golden rule: in other words; obeying the golden rule is the result of His work in us

my  :2c:

[rodgertutt]

THANKS JUGGHEAD

THE TEACHING THAT COMES FROM DEMONS

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY THOMAS B. THAYER
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER

"The world hates God because of the picture Christianity has painted of Him. The doctrine of eternal torment is a teaching of demons; a myth. It infects the world via a series of false expressions, printed onto tracts and forced into sermons. Those who espouse and teach it are in full heed of deceiving spirits, though they know it not.

There must be a remedy, and there is. 2Timothy 2:15, 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.'

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying."

[rodgertutt]

DENY

Some people think that Matt. 10:33 means that deniers will never be saved.
But Peter denied Christ three times, Matt. 26:75, and so will all other deniers repent in due time.

[rodgertutt]

DRAW / DRAG?

In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).

When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram
 
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup: He will "draw all" to Himself.. ["1670. helkó - I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe. - properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing" - biblehub.com interlinear]

It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen

Human nature runs with God's Word.. Just because those not yet saved will rise "still in their sins" (initially) where does it say that all thinking, emotion, etc is now suspended and no one can be drawn after death - and resurrection! ...? yes they will be away from the LORD's presence - aionian.. especially during the millennium.. then on judgment 'day' there's bound to be some weeping and even ganshing of teeth.. (initially) but I do not believe it says anywhere in His Word that "all hope is lost"... "all who enter here" (Dante's line?)

This is an image, which to me, describes when (imo) -
https://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/

"When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? -- It would be good to answer this question"

[rodgertutt]

THANKS MARIE

Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod 

Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.
Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure. If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.
What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.

By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[eaglesway]

I believe in the inevitability of love. Love never fails. God is love. Jesus on the cross is the ultimate demonstration of the love of God.

For me, Calvinism or Arminianism makes no difference. They both miss the point.

"I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified".....

God will have all His desire fulfilled in all creation because the goal of all He has done from the beginning is for all things to return Him, a "new creation" in Jesus,

"For from Him and though Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory into the ages"Rom 11:36...and ...

"Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things about which God has spoken by all the prophets since ancient times"

"Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"Phil 2:10,11

ETrs teach that this verse insists that God will force a reluctant submission on all the adversaries just before He torments them forever, But Jesus said,

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."

I believe this will occur because He is so full of God, a fountain overflowing with the inevitable love of God.

"For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven." Col 1

"He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature"

All that God has pre-ordained is to fulfill the end-goal of all being gathered into one in Christ, HIS LOVE being ALL IN ALL.... Whatever God has left man to choose, every choice leads him inexorably to  the cross of Jesus, where He was lifted up, and from where He received His Lordship, and where every creature will be won by the inevitable love of God...

"Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason He was given the name above every name that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth...."

"Behold I am making all things new!"

[rodgertutt]

THANKS EAGLESWAY

ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF

ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."

Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.

CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."

Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."

Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).

I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.

Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"

THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[Dandelion]

I believe in the inevitability of love. Love never fails. God is love. Jesus on the cross is the ultimate demonstration of the love of God.

Amen and amen. In a nutshell....everything we need to know, EW! Thank you!

ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF

ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."

Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.

CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."

Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."

Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).

I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.

Again, in a nutshell! Thank you, Rodger!

D.

[jugghead]

How would I describe a beast?

a god of the Arminian or Calvinist belief systems

[rodgertutt]

Augustine and Matthew 25:46
     Augustine gave a couple of reasons why he believed it was in vain that some, indeed very many, in his day, believed there was no eternal punishment:

    "It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture–but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. " 'God will not forget,' " they say, " 'to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy.' " This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm. But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy," those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, " 'Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment.' " Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: " 'But the righteous into life eternal.' "
(end quote)
It may be that many of the early believers in Augustine's day did "deplore the notion of eternal punishment" by yielding to "human feelings" and reliance upon God's mercy. But, was Augustine correct to quote Matthew 25:46 to support the notion of "eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery''? I say No, he was not.
     He is saying that if punishment is temporary then it logically follows that the life for the righteous is temporary as well. But is Matthew 25:31-46 really saying this is about the fate of "damned" vs. the righteous for all eternity? No! This judgment takes place when Christ comes back and sets up His 1000 year kingdom (see also Revelation 20). When Christ comes back (Matt.25:31) He will call the nations to this judgment. They will be judged as to how Christ's brethren were treated. Having faith in Christ or lack thereof is not what they are being judged for. Christ never calls the sheep nations His brothers but He does tell them that they treated His brethren correctly.
     Secondly, the "kolasin aionion" or "chastening eonian" which the goat nations must endure is equal in length to the life (zoe aionion/life eonian) in the kingdom which the sheep nations enjoy. When the 1000 year eon ends, both the chastening of the goat nations and the life of the sheep nations end. Then all must appear before the great white throne. The earth is destroyed and I'm sure that some from both groups of the goat and sheep nations will enter into the lake of fire.
     But this is not their "eternal" lot, for, one day, death, (the second death) which the lake of fire is called, will be abolished, all will be made alive (be vivified or given immortality), subjected to Christ and God will be All in all, not All in some (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
     Augustine, for all his brilliance, was not given to see certain truths in the Scriptures. While he may have been correct to state that the given psalm was meant to pertain to the vessels of mercy, It is too bad that he did not see the truth of Romans 11:32 how that God should be merciful in the future to those who are enemies to the evangel and stubborn now.
Tony Nungesser

[rodgertutt]

AUGUSTINE

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -

QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God's wording
"In Christ all shall be made alive"
not
All who are in Christ

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[rodgertutt]

From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION  library of Rodger Tutt

BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)

1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK

BOOKS WITH STAPLES

1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY

[rodgertutt]

BAPTISM

There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.

QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?

[rosered]

BAPTISM

There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.

QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?

  No , I sure do not , I believe when Jesus spoke of baptism    , He was speaking Spiritually
  and this is by the washing of the water of the Word  unto repentance  , being aware  , woken up  out of sleep /sinful nature   that we need salvation  of God .  confessing to one another .
  When He washed  Peters feet   ,  He told him He was clean every bit because of the Word spoken to him , all but his feet  ,  we are to wash one another feet , this is  the refining of the teaching of Jesus Christ   baptism  of the cross ,     to be  practiced and shared regularly from the heart towards one another   for the forgiveness of sins , keeping the conscience clean to fulfilling  this part of the law .
Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

  When Jesus Christ breathes  upon you   than is the  true miracle of Change coming upon us  in my opinion ,giving you His peace resting on you  and the  opportunity  of  power over  sin nature ... being faithful in a few things and making you ruler over many  things [ keeping your house clean , when you forgive you are forgiven  , or  when you retain  , you also  become accountable   of upholding the same law  , Paul mentions this in Romans  several places

21Again Jesus said to them, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.

" 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.


23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."...


  Here is the list  in Romans  , it is by  faith in God you   receive  grace   that saves you in the Lord Jesus Christ ....

2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2:21-23 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?  You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?  You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?

3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?

3:3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

3:6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

3:7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

3:8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come "? Their condemnation is just.

3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin...

3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also...

3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

4:1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?

4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness."

4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised...

6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

6:21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."

7:13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down)...

10:7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching...

10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"

10:16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."

10:19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, by a nation without understanding will I anger you."

11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?

11:35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?

13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same...

14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?


1 Peter 4 Living for God's Glory
...7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so you can pray.


8 Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9Show hospitality to one another without complaining....

I am trying  to love above all else and asking for Gods help to do so   though Jesus Christ ..:HeartThrob: