every knee will bow and every tongue confess... to the glory of God the Father.

[marie glen]

Now I really have to ask, how would it be to the Glory of God, or how would it glorify Him if "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess God" is a forced to the knees kind of thing? Imagine... (or not, if you'd rather :gsmile: ) how would this be carried out I wonder..?

Especially so that it glorifies His holy attributes and character..

So... if He could, or that is, would, on Judgment 'Day' force everyone's knee to bend.. well, why can't He draw everyone to truth (logic, really is what it is!) and draw everyone to Him? ..drawn to He who is love.. Sure some would very likely resist, for a time.. If you've oppressed thousands, or maybe you were a kingpin in the sex slave trade or something.. well, you just may want to hold out.. (And hope for the best? :dontknow: )

I have a tendency to add on.. and on.. but my original thought was, how would a forceful/domineering kind of knee bending of all those God just could not manage to reach during life (sarcasm) how would forcing them to bend the knee, be "Glory"? ..."to God the Father"?

[JamesH]

He won't force anyone considering that the verb for confess is ἐξομολογέω which is in the middle voice. The middle voice is where the one doing the action of the verb is doing it for his/her own benefit. So if all will confess for our own benefit that's not a forced confession so logically neither is the bowing which will occur prior to the confessing.

[darryl]

Now I really have to ask, how would it be to the Glory of God, or how would it glorify Him if "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess God" is a forced to the knees kind of thing? Imagine... (or not, if you'd rather :gsmile: ) how would this be carried out I wonder..?

Especially so that it glorifies His holy attributes and character..

So... if He could, or that is, would, on Judgment 'Day' force everyone's knee to bend.. well, why can't He draw everyone to truth (logic, really is what it is!) and draw everyone to Him? ..drawn to He who is love.. Sure some would very likely resist, for a time.. If you've oppressed thousands, or maybe you were a kingpin in the sex slave trade or something.. well, you just may want to hold out.. (And hope for the best? :dontknow: )

I have a tendency to add on.. and on.. but my original thought was, how would a forceful/domineering kind of knee bending of all those God just could not manage to reach during life (sarcasm) how would forcing them to bend the knee, be "Glory"? ..."to God the Father"?

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

For those who teach that God so enshrines "free will" that he will let people choose to burn forever, then take away their opportunity to change their minds once they die, then resurrect them to a predetermined and infinite fate- I say, "What! So this God who so loves free will, will then force people to bow their knees in a sort of cosmic beat down, and force them to proclaim the Lordship of His Son as an eternal "I told you so"?

Makes no sense and makes God out an egotistical monster.

[darryl]

all thru the Bible, God insists that He be worshipped 'in spirit and in truth'...if these unfortunate folks are forced to bow the knee, that isnt 'in spirit and truth'.

[WhiteWings]

all thru the Bible, God insists that He be worshipped 'in spirit and in truth'...if these unfortunate folks are forced to bow the knee, that isnt 'in spirit and truth'.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/hebrews-927-after-death-comes-judgement/msg122137/#msg122137

[eaglesway]

all thru the Bible, God insists that He be worshipped 'in spirit and in truth'...if these unfortunate folks are forced to bow the knee, that isnt 'in spirit and truth'.

:iagree:

[marie glen]

Me too! Amen!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Phoebes Daughter]

Hi 🙂
Sorry, am a bit late to this conversation....
But the scriptures say that confessing that Christ is Lord can only be made by Holy Spirit..right? 🙂 confession which is from the heart.
Belief is one thing....the demons believe and they 'shudder' scripture tells us.
But 'confession' here seems to denote something deeper, a spiritual reckoning.

To me, it's a bit like knowing and loving someone...and you hear others don't feel anything for this someone, bring indifferent or worse....and you say to yourself, ah, now if you REALLY knew him, THEN you couldn't help but love him....you just don't know him yet...

The day will come when ALL will know Him.
And ultimately hearts will be 'pulled' and 'drawn' because He will prove impossible to resist....

Isn't that it?
And this weekend....our hearts are moved to think over His gift to us, His beloved work of His hands....❤️❤️❤️

[marie glen]

Amen Phoebes Daughter! You said it!! And very well!! His work is so very sufficient! :gsmile: :cloud9: Have a very blessed Easter..

[sheila]

war...thevictortakesthe spoils..and the adversarywill indeed..'bow'even though he is forced!!due to losing the battle/victory!inwar..thevictor takes the'spoils'all men

have been prey/spoil of the adversary in this great spiritual battle between the Kingdom of the sons of light and thekingdom of drkness. the victory paradein older times

had the VICTOR...draw behind him a 'train"of wagons/captives returned and even dragging in chains the enemies overcome.and they did bow and acknowlegehim!

just as Abraham went forth to deliver those taken  captive and deliver them......and Melchezedek brought forth wine and bread!

IT IS GOD"S GLORY AND CHRIST"S  OVER ALL THE POWER OF THE EVIL ONE!!!!and they will be 'forced"not because they want to[speaking ofevil spiritshere] but becuse

GOD'S WILL HAS PREVAILED!!!It is God's glory to defeat and vanquish all enemies and save His people/man!...........He takes captivity captive!!!!!! :2c:

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!

[eaglesway]

IMO no one has truly bowed who has been forced, because in their mind is still the image of the unbowed rebel even if their knee has been bent by force and their confession coerced.

When the scripture says that all will be gathered into one in Christ I believe that means all will be gathered into the love of God, every adversary disarmed, subjected and brought into that which is the "all in all", for God is love. For Him to be all in all all must be included in the fruit of that love, harmony, communion, koinonia. No enemy has been truly subjected(imo) until they have been converted, and conversion occurs through the reconciliation of all things(whether in heaven or in earth) by the blood of His cross. Knees bow through reconciliation and shout for joy at conversion by grace that Jesus Christ is Lord- to the glory of God the Father, as they are gathered into one in Christ.   :2c:

[marie glen]

 :iagree: Amen.  :dsunny:

And, it's only logical!

The Word + context + cross references/all pertaining verses + Logic = Truth :laughing7: don't mind my fancy formula.. came to mind.. so..

every knee will bow and every tongue confess... to the glory of God the Father.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm - And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to Myself. // King James Bible - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

#G3956 - pas: all, every, the whole [http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm]

The bible is amazing reading once we get rid of the two false prisms it is habitually read through ('forever' and 'hell')

[darryl]

:iagree: Amen.  :dsunny:

And, it's only logical!

The Word + context + cross references/all pertaining verses + Logic = Truth :laughing7: don't mind my fancy formula.. came to mind.. so..

every knee will bow and every tongue confess... to the glory of God the Father.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm - And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to Myself. // King James Bible - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

#G3956 - pas: all, every, the whole [http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm]

The bible is amazing reading once we get rid of the two false prisms it is habitually read through ('forever' and 'hell')

:thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

1 John 4:

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

[CHB]

It is funny to me, that the Bible is read by the whole world and the majority of it understands it all differently. That is a miracle in itself. Take for instance, a book that is a best seller, written by a well known author. That book would be understood the same by who ever read it.

CHB 

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup:CHB,

How is it possible that there is so much confusion on what the bible says? Of course it is God's doing. The majority do not believe that. Many believe they can "come to Christ" on there own power. False thinking!  We are a little flock who believe in the salvation of ALL.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

[rosered]

It is funny to me, that the Bible is read by the whole world and the majority of it understands it all differently. That is a miracle in itself. Take for instance, a book that is a best seller, written by a well known author. That book would be understood the same by who ever read it.

CHB

:thumbsup:CHB,

How is it possible that there is so much confusion on what the bible says? Of course it is God's doing. The majority do not believe that. Many believe they can "come to Christ" on there own power. False thinking!  We are a little flock who believe in the salvation of ALL.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

For me ,  :2c:
Two minds and two different ways of thinking , the carnal mind that is always in fear  of the unknown God   and is  of death

This  mind is blinded by   the  god of this age  whom is judged already [as dead  to God and knows nothing as   they ought .

  The Light of the Gospel
...3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake....


Now to those whom do believe  have been healed of the deadly wound  , mark of  the beast and no longer follow   worldly wisdom

  Jesus  has healed them and given  them His mind , the mind of Christ  , whom is  the LORD of both the dead and the living

and satan has lost his power  of death  over them     by that law and ministration of death , by  Gods mercy  and grace on them

I believe God is  merciful to us all  , but many do not believe this  part  and  invoke   suffering    upon the unbelievers

as the wrath of God still abides on them .
Oddly enough  , and just my  thoughts here , that is anyone of  us  whom shrinks back into fear   and not  pressing on in faith   that God is able to save   us and that is anyone at any time   is suffering   in  the same   ways  in their carnal minds   still.

   Faith has to be tested and proved   , what good is to have faith without   any works ?

  Works of   God are those whom can come out of  those trials   by the Holy Spirit   with more grace and  faith and   spiritual growth .
     Dead works are the works of our hands. These are works of self-righteousness,      and pride of life that  lord over the  poor in spirit    and  exalt themselves  above God , not knowing it is  all works of satan 

You cannot tell by looking with the natural eye   what   are good works or dead works  , but it is God HIMSELF , whom knows the motive of the heart   and what is operating   the motive .

  GOD put it in the hearts of the beast   to hate the WHORE BABYLON and burn her flesh with fire

We question    ET , but the truth is   God has purposed it   and we judge Gods purpose  and law   by not believing this is all a part of Gods plan  :sigh: by the carnally minded   , many are still bound up by this law  of good and evil     with life and death 
still operating   within our hearts .
Rev 17

The Victory of the Lamb
...16And the ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute.

They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by uniting to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.


18 And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."...

All things work together for the good of those  whom love the Lord and are called according to HIS purpose .

I do believe   this is the hard part,'' Is  waiting on the Lord ''and ''not to judge  anything before the  time''  , till the Lord comes and brings it to LIGHT    .

   The patience of the saints  is a very difficult  position to remain in  total  rest  , when the troubles of this life are so vexing to the Spirit  WITHIN US    whom desire the good and perfect    WILL OF GOD done on earth as it is in heaven , whom believe in Gods will and plan of the ages , both the laws /ages   , law  of death and the law of Life   and vengeance is the Lords to repay  and not our vengeance when wronged .
  The wrath of mankind has never worked the righteousness of God and has been proven   billions of times already as dead works that is fruitless futility  everyone is subjected to.

Spiritual warfare is real  and goes on continually since the beginning of   this world [proverbs 8 ] when the Bible began to  keep record .
  But  the key to me is this , LOVE keeps no record of wrong doing  GOD IS LOVE  AND WILL reconcile all things according to His own  will  , by and though  the LORD JESUS CHRIST  being the Lord of both the living and dead   , we wait on the Lord  to finnish  and complete everything /all things    within Himself    and turn it all  over to God  [1Cor 15]
by
Love
...4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth....


As long as we remain  in this condition and state we are going to suffer  because of evil  for seeking good   
and the Good will suffer  loss because of evil .

Evil comes to steal , kill and destroy    anything good .  But death could not  hold the LORD   JESUS CHRIST , HE ALONE IS OUR VICTORY SONG ... and praise   to God .  behold the LAMB of God whom takes away the sins of the whole world   ,  for God so loved the world that he  gave His only one of a kind Son  , that whomsoever believes in Him will   not die  or be  destroyed  but shall inherit eternal life though Him . 

Everyone will bow  before Him on the last day , what if our last day on earth is  true ?   What if Jesus Christ is the last Day and the children of the Day are already   His ?   and many are still coming to Him as we have already  done ?  lots to consider   when we think of   the salvation of all    and love keeping no record of wrong ...  right ?

[sheila]

itis because God alone..and Jesus did it[sealed]the WORD..because He kept authority overHisword..how it is fulfilled and what it means. the Lamb that lookedlike

it had been slaughteredwas 'worthy' to remove the seals..LISTEN TO HIM!!Satan come quoting scripture in it's twisted form to Jesus,too! Just as he twisted God'swordto

Eveinthe garden...and causes mans confusion even unto this day. alsoit is because He has revealed His word over time..and throughout the generations of man......

righteous/perfect in their generation..refers to men who were in alignment with the revealed'word of God' at that time. the spirit of truth will lead us into all truth...and

inTHE END ALL shall be revealed.He has to perfect our understanding and hearts if we are to  have themind/heart[love]of Christ..which we all desire understanding

that 'wisdom from above"but man's salvation does not depend on  his reaching that in this world while in flesh..His grace is sufficient...and God himself will finish

all of man's training.

THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME WHEN I FORGIVE ALL THEIR SIN..........when we 'fall short' of understanding His "Higher thoughts"and'great love' for all men..we unwittingly

'rob'God of HIS GREAT GLORY!!!!!!!!and we see in many congregations such mindsets that are an affront unto Him...and most unworthy of Him...causingthe name

of God and Christ to be scorned. stink offerings,stinking feet gospels.....they are not BEAUTY_FULL FEET shod with the gospel of God's goodness and peace unto all men.

AND IF I BE LIFTED UP,I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME[well,He was lifted UP]but men not understanding have said things unworthy of Him.LOOK TO ME AND

BE SAVED ALL YE ENDS OF THE EARTH! the ends of the earth is when men die and their flesh returns unto dust and their spirits RETURN unto God.Jesus draws them up.

If you can recieve this JTKY, I tell you we are an in-numerable great host! more are withus!!!All that have passed over since Abel are with Him and us!!!2Kings6;16,17

their spirits drawn up to Him. :2c:

[rosered]

 
:thumbsup:    :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:


Jer 31

A New Covenant
...33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD,

"I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


35Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:...



Luke 1:77
to give to His people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me--

Romans 11:27
And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins."

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another.

Hebrews 8:11
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more."

Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

1 John 2:20
You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Isaiah 11:9
They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

   :banana:

[marie glen]

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

   Amen, I SO agree..


And amen all.. :gsmile:

[MusicLover123]

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

   Amen, I SO agree..


And amen all.. :gsmile:

Just to be that guy, doesn't "point of view" here imply it is just one's interpretation, "true to you" paradigm?

It is not that we take a couple verses by themselves and use that to interpret everything; we take the whole picture and apply it to individual passages. UR is not "A" view of the Gospel, IT IS THE GOSPEL!

We don't view through the veil, we look beyond it.

[jabcat]

My friend, I'll be the "other guy"   :laugh:   :dsunny:

I see point of view as also being, "as I understand", "as I believe".  I'd guess most ET proponents could say the the same thing, i.e., "this isn't just a point of view, it's the truth, it's what the Bible says!!!".

Something to consider - I believe the precept of ultimate reconciliation of all back to God through Jesus Christ, is of course an important foundational building block.  However, concerning THE gospel, I consider this primarily (:thumbsup:);

1 Cor. 15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures..

Even though most don't see the final outcome now, when each person - one at a time - is drawn and given faith to truly believe in their heart the above, then we have it.  UR! :)

[rosered]

Amen to all the above ...
Some deep thinkers here ...  :dsunny:   All my life is struggled to understand the scriptures
  and my whom do they apply to , If we are    born  like  trees of good and evil as so many scriptures compare us too  being planted in the earth by GODS own doing .
  Than we get to  Jesus telling us to make the tree good and it s fruit  or make it evil  because a tree is known by its fruit .

  Than down the road I finally see Paul  telling us   in Romans 3,  Some justify themselves  by slanderously   saying ,  Do we continue to evil  so good will come ?

God Remains Faithful
...7However, if my falsehood accentuates God's truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?

8Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "- Let us do evil that good may result?"

Their condemnation is deserved! 9What then? Are we any better? Not at all.

For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin....


I can only come to this conclusion   than ,     Only God can say whom is  righteous in His sight , and Only He can judge us   righteously     though Jesus  Christ   , as gathered into ONE    or remains   separated  still .

Many come in His name and saying   this and that  , but the truth is   , He knows our hearts better than we do our own   and   judges   by the TRUTH  , WORD ,   well done my faithful servant or depart from me you worker of iniquity  I don't know you ..

How we handle the Word of Life,  in my own point of view ,is crucial  and decisive or critical, especially in the success or failure of something done in His name   and is of great importance.
  Because we even have to give an account of  every idol word we speak as well   as  Judge and jury of the heavenly courts system  .

I personally find is a serious matter    :2c:   This is one of  the reasons  , many times  I believe the Holy Spirit puts us to silence    and makes us refect on   our hearts  and see  just where we are  at  in Him .

I for one try to be as honest  as possible  within  my own heart , because I hate to pretend   to be something I am not .
Does this get me lots of trouble , you bet !! 
  I despise hypocrisy    especially   within my own heart  , and still trying to  measure everything by the truth  and find myself utterly disgusted  with  failures  to measure up .

Lots of times we will find   everyone has their own ideas of what truth is   and  most often we cannot agree 100% of the time

But it is like the elephant in the room , and if we have our eyes closed  and are feeling  for it ,  we grab a hold of a  part of the elephant   and describe it    to others  hoping it helps   and they share with you the  same way  ,  as one grabs the trunk and the other the tail and the other the ear   and the other the side  , we  can  gather  from others a bigger picture , unless you  are working independently  and reject  everyone else's   truth  and say this is how it is !! 
 
I do believe God wants us all to work together  as ONE to be able to see the big picture  , because even what  one has a piece of truth  will be taken away from him and given to another  , that is willing to  open   the mind and heart up  to wonderful things  in store  for those whom love the Lord for real and are called according to His purpose .

Gathering  and not scattering is   to me what the Lord is implying   when He said , He whom is not with me is against me

Matt12 30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.


31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,

but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven....
  Because we know the   Spirit is   ONE SPIRIT   EPH 4


Unity in the Body
(Psalm 133:1-3; 1 Corinthians 1:10-17)

1As a prisoner in the Lord, then, I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received:

2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


8This is why it says:

"When He ascended on high,

He led captives away,

and gave gifts to men."

For me , He has bound up the strong men in power and  allowed the Spiritual man to now be able to receive the things of God  by the truth  freely    without  force  for everyone , but by   the grace of God ,   by the   new blood  covenant of His cross .

  A way which there was no way before   He come to openly show us   in scriptures   in the new testament and  gospel  of the Lord Jesus Christ   with His peace and blessing upon us .

  :2c: