Tentmaker Forum

Now I really have to ask, how would it be to the Glory of God, or how would it glorify Him if "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess God" is a forced to the knees kind of thing? Imagine... (or not, if you'd rather :gsmile: ) how would this be carried out I wonder..?

Especially so that it glorifies His holy attributes and character..

So... if He could, or that is, would, on Judgment 'Day' force everyone's knee to bend.. well, why can't He draw everyone to truth (logic, really is what it is!) and draw everyone to Him? ..drawn to He who is love.. Sure some would very likely resist, for a time.. If you've oppressed thousands, or maybe you were a kingpin in the sex slave trade or something.. well, you just may want to hold out.. (And hope for the best? :dontknow: )

I have a tendency to add on.. and on.. but my original thought was, how would a forceful/domineering kind of knee bending of all those God just could not manage to reach during life (sarcasm) how would forcing them to bend the knee, be "Glory"? ..."to God the Father"?

He won't force anyone considering that the verb for confess is ἐξομολογέω which is in the middle voice. The middle voice is where the one doing the action of the verb is doing it for his/her own benefit. So if all will confess for our own benefit that's not a forced confession so logically neither is the bowing which will occur prior to the confessing.

Quote from: marie glen on February 28, 2018, 01:34:23 AM
Now I really have to ask, how would it be to the Glory of God, or how would it glorify Him if "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess God" is a forced to the knees kind of thing? Imagine... (or not, if you'd rather :gsmile: ) how would this be carried out I wonder..?

Especially so that it glorifies His holy attributes and character..

So... if He could, or that is, would, on Judgment 'Day' force everyone's knee to bend.. well, why can't He draw everyone to truth (logic, really is what it is!) and draw everyone to Him? ..drawn to He who is love.. Sure some would very likely resist, for a time.. If you've oppressed thousands, or maybe you were a kingpin in the sex slave trade or something.. well, you just may want to hold out.. (And hope for the best? :dontknow: )

I have a tendency to add on.. and on.. but my original thought was, how would a forceful/domineering kind of knee bending of all those God just could not manage to reach during life (sarcasm) how would forcing them to bend the knee, be "Glory"? ..."to God the Father"?

:thumbsup:

For those who teach that God so enshrines "free will" that he will let people choose to burn forever, then take away their opportunity to change their minds once they die, then resurrect them to a predetermined and infinite fate- I say, "What! So this God who so loves free will, will then force people to bow their knees in a sort of cosmic beat down, and force them to proclaim the Lordship of His Son as an eternal "I told you so"?

Makes no sense and makes God out an egotistical monster.

all thru the Bible, God insists that He be worshipped 'in spirit and in truth'...if these unfortunate folks are forced to bow the knee, that isnt 'in spirit and truth'.

Quote from: darryl on February 28, 2018, 11:34:58 AM
all thru the Bible, God insists that He be worshipped 'in spirit and in truth'...if these unfortunate folks are forced to bow the knee, that isnt 'in spirit and truth'.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/hebrews-927-after-death-comes-judgement/msg122137/#msg122137

Quote from: darryl on February 28, 2018, 11:34:58 AM
all thru the Bible, God insists that He be worshipped 'in spirit and in truth'...if these unfortunate folks are forced to bow the knee, that isnt 'in spirit and truth'.

:iagree:

Me too! Amen!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Hi 🙂
Sorry, am a bit late to this conversation....
But the scriptures say that confessing that Christ is Lord can only be made by Holy Spirit..right? 🙂 confession which is from the heart.
Belief is one thing....the demons believe and they 'shudder' scripture tells us.
But 'confession' here seems to denote something deeper, a spiritual reckoning.

To me, it's a bit like knowing and loving someone...and you hear others don't feel anything for this someone, bring indifferent or worse....and you say to yourself, ah, now if you REALLY knew him, THEN you couldn't help but love him....you just don't know him yet...

The day will come when ALL will know Him.
And ultimately hearts will be 'pulled' and 'drawn' because He will prove impossible to resist....

Isn't that it?
And this weekend....our hearts are moved to think over His gift to us, His beloved work of His hands....❤️❤️❤️

Amen Phoebes Daughter! You said it!! And very well!! His work is so very sufficient! :gsmile: :cloud9: Have a very blessed Easter..

war...thevictortakesthe spoils..and the adversarywill indeed..'bow'even though he is forced!!due to losing the battle/victory!inwar..thevictor takes the'spoils'all men

have been prey/spoil of the adversary in this great spiritual battle between the Kingdom of the sons of light and thekingdom of drkness. the victory paradein older times

had the VICTOR...draw behind him a 'train"of wagons/captives returned and even dragging in chains the enemies overcome.and they did bow and acknowlegehim!

just as Abraham went forth to deliver those taken  captive and deliver them......and Melchezedek brought forth wine and bread!

IT IS GOD"S GLORY AND CHRIST"S  OVER ALL THE POWER OF THE EVIL ONE!!!!and they will be 'forced"not because they want to[speaking ofevil spiritshere] but becuse

GOD'S WILL HAS PREVAILED!!!It is God's glory to defeat and vanquish all enemies and save His people/man!...........He takes captivity captive!!!!!! :2c:

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!

IMO no one has truly bowed who has been forced, because in their mind is still the image of the unbowed rebel even if their knee has been bent by force and their confession coerced.

When the scripture says that all will be gathered into one in Christ I believe that means all will be gathered into the love of God, every adversary disarmed, subjected and brought into that which is the "all in all", for God is love. For Him to be all in all all must be included in the fruit of that love, harmony, communion, koinonia. No enemy has been truly subjected(imo) until they have been converted, and conversion occurs through the reconciliation of all things(whether in heaven or in earth) by the blood of His cross. Knees bow through reconciliation and shout for joy at conversion by grace that Jesus Christ is Lord- to the glory of God the Father, as they are gathered into one in Christ.   :2c:

 :iagree: Amen.  :dsunny:

And, it's only logical!

The Word + context + cross references/all pertaining verses + Logic = Truth :laughing7: don't mind my fancy formula.. came to mind.. so..

every knee will bow and every tongue confess... to the glory of God the Father.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm - And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to Myself. // King James Bible - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

#G3956 - pas: all, every, the whole [http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm (http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm)]

The bible is amazing reading once we get rid of the two false prisms it is habitually read through ('forever' and 'hell')

Quote from: marie glen on April 11, 2018, 05:44:11 PM
:iagree: Amen.  :dsunny:

And, it's only logical!

The Word + context + cross references/all pertaining verses + Logic = Truth :laughing7: don't mind my fancy formula.. came to mind.. so..

every knee will bow and every tongue confess... to the glory of God the Father.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm - And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to Myself. // King James Bible - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

#G3956 - pas: all, every, the whole [http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm (http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm)]

The bible is amazing reading once we get rid of the two false prisms it is habitually read through ('forever' and 'hell')

:thumbsup:

1 John 4:

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

It is funny to me, that the Bible is read by the whole world and the majority of it understands it all differently. That is a miracle in itself. Take for instance, a book that is a best seller, written by a well known author. That book would be understood the same by who ever read it.

CHB 

 :thumbsup:CHB,

How is it possible that there is so much confusion on what the bible says? Of course it is God's doing. The majority do not believe that. Many believe they can "come to Christ" on there own power. False thinking!  We are a little flock who believe in the salvation of ALL.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

Quote from: CHB on April 13, 2018, 04:46:55 PM
It is funny to me, that the Bible is read by the whole world and the majority of it understands it all differently. That is a miracle in itself. Take for instance, a book that is a best seller, written by a well known author. That book would be understood the same by who ever read it.

CHB

Quote from: joeteekay on April 13, 2018, 04:58:41 PM
:thumbsup:CHB,

How is it possible that there is so much confusion on what the bible says? Of course it is God's doing. The majority do not believe that. Many believe they can "come to Christ" on there own power. False thinking!  We are a little flock who believe in the salvation of ALL.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

For me ,  :2c:
Two minds and two different ways of thinking , the carnal mind that is always in fear  of the unknown God   and is  of death

This  mind is blinded by   the  god of this age  whom is judged already [as dead  to God and knows nothing as   they ought .

  The Light of the Gospel
...3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake....


Now to those whom do believe  have been healed of the deadly wound  , mark of  the beast and no longer follow   worldly wisdom

  Jesus  has healed them and given  them His mind , the mind of Christ  , whom is  the LORD of both the dead and the living

and satan has lost his power  of death  over them     by that law and ministration of death , by  Gods mercy  and grace on them

I believe God is  merciful to us all  , but many do not believe this  part  and  invoke   suffering    upon the unbelievers

as the wrath of God still abides on them .
Oddly enough  , and just my  thoughts here , that is anyone of  us  whom shrinks back into fear   and not  pressing on in faith   that God is able to save   us and that is anyone at any time   is suffering   in  the same   ways  in their carnal minds   still.

   Faith has to be tested and proved   , what good is to have faith without   any works ?

  Works of   God are those whom can come out of  those trials   by the Holy Spirit   with more grace and  faith and   spiritual growth .
     Dead works are the works of our hands. These are works of self-righteousness,      and pride of life that  lord over the  poor in spirit    and  exalt themselves  above God , not knowing it is  all works of satan 

You cannot tell by looking with the natural eye   what   are good works or dead works  , but it is God HIMSELF , whom knows the motive of the heart   and what is operating   the motive .

  GOD put it in the hearts of the beast   to hate the WHORE BABYLON and burn her flesh with fire

We question    ET , but the truth is   God has purposed it   and we judge Gods purpose  and law   by not believing this is all a part of Gods plan  :sigh: by the carnally minded   , many are still bound up by this law  of good and evil     with life and death 
still operating   within our hearts .
Rev 17

The Victory of the Lamb
...16And the ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute.

They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by uniting to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.


18 And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."...

All things work together for the good of those  whom love the Lord and are called according to HIS purpose .

I do believe   this is the hard part,'' Is  waiting on the Lord ''and ''not to judge  anything before the  time''  , till the Lord comes and brings it to LIGHT    .

   The patience of the saints  is a very difficult  position to remain in  total  rest  , when the troubles of this life are so vexing to the Spirit  WITHIN US    whom desire the good and perfect    WILL OF GOD done on earth as it is in heaven , whom believe in Gods will and plan of the ages , both the laws /ages   , law  of death and the law of Life   and vengeance is the Lords to repay  and not our vengeance when wronged .
  The wrath of mankind has never worked the righteousness of God and has been proven   billions of times already as dead works that is fruitless futility  everyone is subjected to.

Spiritual warfare is real  and goes on continually since the beginning of   this world [proverbs 8 ] when the Bible began to  keep record .
  But  the key to me is this , LOVE keeps no record of wrong doing  GOD IS LOVE  AND WILL reconcile all things according to His own  will  , by and though  the LORD JESUS CHRIST  being the Lord of both the living and dead   , we wait on the Lord  to finnish  and complete everything /all things    within Himself    and turn it all  over to God  [1Cor 15]
by
Love
...4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth....


As long as we remain  in this condition and state we are going to suffer  because of evil  for seeking good   
and the Good will suffer  loss because of evil .

Evil comes to steal , kill and destroy    anything good .  But death could not  hold the LORD   JESUS CHRIST , HE ALONE IS OUR VICTORY SONG ... and praise   to God .  behold the LAMB of God whom takes away the sins of the whole world   ,  for God so loved the world that he  gave His only one of a kind Son  , that whomsoever believes in Him will   not die  or be  destroyed  but shall inherit eternal life though Him . 

Everyone will bow  before Him on the last day , what if our last day on earth is  true ?   What if Jesus Christ is the last Day and the children of the Day are already   His ?   and many are still coming to Him as we have already  done ?  lots to consider   when we think of   the salvation of all    and love keeping no record of wrong ...  right ?

itis because God alone..and Jesus did it[sealed]the WORD..because He kept authority overHisword..how it is fulfilled and what it means. the Lamb that lookedlike

it had been slaughteredwas 'worthy' to remove the seals..LISTEN TO HIM!!Satan come quoting scripture in it's twisted form to Jesus,too! Just as he twisted God'swordto

Eveinthe garden...and causes mans confusion even unto this day. alsoit is because He has revealed His word over time..and throughout the generations of man......

righteous/perfect in their generation..refers to men who were in alignment with the revealed'word of God' at that time. the spirit of truth will lead us into all truth...and

inTHE END ALL shall be revealed.He has to perfect our understanding and hearts if we are to  have themind/heart[love]of Christ..which we all desire understanding

that 'wisdom from above"but man's salvation does not depend on  his reaching that in this world while in flesh..His grace is sufficient...and God himself will finish

all of man's training.

THEY WILL ALL KNOW ME WHEN I FORGIVE ALL THEIR SIN..........when we 'fall short' of understanding His "Higher thoughts"and'great love' for all men..we unwittingly

'rob'God of HIS GREAT GLORY!!!!!!!!and we see in many congregations such mindsets that are an affront unto Him...and most unworthy of Him...causingthe name

of God and Christ to be scorned. stink offerings,stinking feet gospels.....they are not BEAUTY_FULL FEET shod with the gospel of God's goodness and peace unto all men.

AND IF I BE LIFTED UP,I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME[well,He was lifted UP]but men not understanding have said things unworthy of Him.LOOK TO ME AND

BE SAVED ALL YE ENDS OF THE EARTH! the ends of the earth is when men die and their flesh returns unto dust and their spirits RETURN unto God.Jesus draws them up.

If you can recieve this JTKY, I tell you we are an in-numerable great host! more are withus!!!All that have passed over since Abel are with Him and us!!!2Kings6;16,17

their spirits drawn up to Him. :2c:

 
:thumbsup:    :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:


Jer 31

A New Covenant
...33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD,

"I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


35Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:...



Luke 1:77
to give to His people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me--

Romans 11:27
And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins."

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another.

Hebrews 8:11
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more."

Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

1 John 2:20
You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Isaiah 11:9
They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

   :banana:

Quote from: Dandelion on April 13, 2018, 01:41:55 PM
Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

   Amen, I SO agree..


And amen all.. :gsmile:

Quote from: marie glen on April 13, 2018, 10:51:19 PM

Quote from: Dandelion on April 13, 2018, 01:41:55 PM
Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

   Amen, I SO agree..


And amen all.. :gsmile:

Just to be that guy, doesn't "point of view" here imply it is just one's interpretation, "true to you" paradigm?

It is not that we take a couple verses by themselves and use that to interpret everything; we take the whole picture and apply it to individual passages. UR is not "A" view of the Gospel, IT IS THE GOSPEL!

We don't view through the veil, we look beyond it.

My friend, I'll be the "other guy"   :laugh:   :dsunny:

I see point of view as also being, "as I understand", "as I believe".  I'd guess most ET proponents could say the the same thing, i.e., "this isn't just a point of view, it's the truth, it's what the Bible says!!!".

Something to consider - I believe the precept of ultimate reconciliation of all back to God through Jesus Christ, is of course an important foundational building block.  However, concerning THE gospel, I consider this primarily (:thumbsup:);

1 Cor. 15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures..

Even though most don't see the final outcome now, when each person - one at a time - is drawn and given faith to truly believe in their heart the above, then we have it.  UR! :)

Amen to all the above ...
Some deep thinkers here ...  :dsunny:   All my life is struggled to understand the scriptures
  and my whom do they apply to , If we are    born  like  trees of good and evil as so many scriptures compare us too  being planted in the earth by GODS own doing .
  Than we get to  Jesus telling us to make the tree good and it s fruit  or make it evil  because a tree is known by its fruit .

  Than down the road I finally see Paul  telling us   in Romans 3,  Some justify themselves  by slanderously   saying ,  Do we continue to evil  so good will come ?

God Remains Faithful
...7However, if my falsehood accentuates God's truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?

8Why not say, as some slanderously claim that we say, "- Let us do evil that good may result?"

Their condemnation is deserved! 9What then? Are we any better? Not at all.

For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin....


I can only come to this conclusion   than ,     Only God can say whom is  righteous in His sight , and Only He can judge us   righteously     though Jesus  Christ   , as gathered into ONE    or remains   separated  still .

Many come in His name and saying   this and that  , but the truth is   , He knows our hearts better than we do our own   and   judges   by the TRUTH  , WORD ,   well done my faithful servant or depart from me you worker of iniquity  I don't know you ..

How we handle the Word of Life,  in my own point of view ,is crucial  and decisive or critical, especially in the success or failure of something done in His name   and is of great importance.
  Because we even have to give an account of  every idol word we speak as well   as  Judge and jury of the heavenly courts system  .

I personally find is a serious matter    :2c:   This is one of  the reasons  , many times  I believe the Holy Spirit puts us to silence    and makes us refect on   our hearts  and see  just where we are  at  in Him .

I for one try to be as honest  as possible  within  my own heart , because I hate to pretend   to be something I am not .
Does this get me lots of trouble , you bet !! 
  I despise hypocrisy    especially   within my own heart  , and still trying to  measure everything by the truth  and find myself utterly disgusted  with  failures  to measure up .

Lots of times we will find   everyone has their own ideas of what truth is   and  most often we cannot agree 100% of the time

But it is like the elephant in the room , and if we have our eyes closed  and are feeling  for it ,  we grab a hold of a  part of the elephant   and describe it    to others  hoping it helps   and they share with you the  same way  ,  as one grabs the trunk and the other the tail and the other the ear   and the other the side  , we  can  gather  from others a bigger picture , unless you  are working independently  and reject  everyone else's   truth  and say this is how it is !! 
 
I do believe God wants us all to work together  as ONE to be able to see the big picture  , because even what  one has a piece of truth  will be taken away from him and given to another  , that is willing to  open   the mind and heart up  to wonderful things  in store  for those whom love the Lord for real and are called according to His purpose .

Gathering  and not scattering is   to me what the Lord is implying   when He said , He whom is not with me is against me

Matt12 30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.


31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,

but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven....
  Because we know the   Spirit is   ONE SPIRIT   EPH 4


Unity in the Body
(Psalm 133:1-3; 1 Corinthians 1:10-17)

1As a prisoner in the Lord, then, I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received:

2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


8This is why it says:

"When He ascended on high,

He led captives away,

and gave gifts to men."

For me , He has bound up the strong men in power and  allowed the Spiritual man to now be able to receive the things of God  by the truth  freely    without  force  for everyone , but by   the grace of God ,   by the   new blood  covenant of His cross .

  A way which there was no way before   He come to openly show us   in scriptures   in the new testament and  gospel  of the Lord Jesus Christ   with His peace and blessing upon us .

  :2c:

 :dontknow:  I could be wrong but I don't see any wording even in the interlinear versions wherein it shall be a forced thing.
I take the scripture to mean, every knee will bow and every tongue confess because the world comes under grace.
I could be wrong.
Lord knows strangers tings have appened.  :laugh:

Amen! BBP! Reading the verse  recently, in the interlinear and following the link -

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-11.htm

I was happy to note who the translated phrase "every tongue will confess, will confess in the original intent, included "wholeheartedly".. every tongue will wholeheartedly confess "Jesus is Lord!"

https://biblehub.com/greek/1843.htm

   :thumbsup: :gsmile:

Quote from: Dandelion on April 13, 2018, 01:41:55 PM
1 John 4:

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

The line in purple nails it for me.......If anyone confesses, God abides in Him. I take this as a Biblical contradiction of the 'force you to worship' theory.

And, I believe the rest of the Bible substantiates this....absolutely!

D.

Quote from: marie glen on August 05, 2018, 01:45:47 AM
Amen! BBP! Reading the verse  recently, in the interlinear and following the link -

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-11.htm

I was happy to note who the translated phrase "every tongue will confess, will confess in the original intent, included "wholeheartedly".. every tongue will wholeheartedly confess "Jesus is Lord!"

https://biblehub.com/greek/1843.htm

   :thumbsup: :gsmile:

:girlheart: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Dandelion on August 05, 2018, 02:12:31 AM

Quote from: Dandelion on April 13, 2018, 01:41:55 PM
1 John 4:

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

The line in purple nails it for me.......If anyone confesses, God abides in Him. I take this as a Biblical contradiction of the 'force you to worship' theory.

And, I believe the rest of the Bible substantiates this....absolutely!

D.

Great post. The fear paradigm delivered by the Hell fire teaching really doesn't make sense.

Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

Quote from: eaglesway on August 11, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

Amen! That sums those doctrinal beliefs up excellently! And with few words to boot!  :sigh: Good to know that one day "common" sense will rule supreme. :cloud9: And logic, which I believe is a modern adjective of its root word, logos..

Quote from: eaglesway on August 11, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

The after effects of man compiling the writings of over 40 different authors, electing over centuries parts to be included into what would inevitably be voted as a closed canon. I.E. the last time God would ever speak to his people.

That's why the Holy Bible says, Holy Bible, Holy Book, on its cover and is said to be God's words. Rather than having, "God's Words", embossed on the cover.

Quote from: marc555 on August 11, 2018, 12:39:22 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on August 11, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

I love your common-sense posts.
I checked out that CS Lewis book you spoke of but to be honest...I'm going to seek my own way without anyone elses thoughts/views.  My brain is a bit tired from all that.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on August 12, 2018, 05:56:20 AM

Quote from: marc555 on August 11, 2018, 12:39:22 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on August 11, 2018, 05:56:04 AM
Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

I love your common-sense posts.
I checked out that CS Lewis book you spoke of but to be honest...I'm going to seek my own way without anyone elses thoughts/views.  My brain is a bit tired from all that.

:thumbsup:

I have to disagree a bit. Sorry  :punish: (I'm the guy on the left)

God's Spirit will guide you on all things. Over time, through our fiery trials, we will learn how to discern God's voice from others. Not only testing every Spirit, but also our own.

Don't seek your own way! Seek Christ, as He is the way, the Truth and the Life.

I had that attitude before too. But, God has been humbling me to where I realize that I don't have all of His Truth. We can look at others, but it really takes discernment to sort through the wheat and the tares. Stay away from most commentaries though, they're a load of baloney.

His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, so lean not on your own understanding. How much, therefore, of your own wisdom do you lean on? Nada.

 With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

We'll have to agree to disagree :gimmefive:

Relying on  our own wisdom in arrogance is not the same as proclaiming the revealed wisdom of God from the scriptures and identifying adversaries to the true gospel of Jesus.

I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation.

I do not think it is going to far at all to say that the doctrine of eternal torment, whether from a Calvinist or Arminian perspective, is a grievous error both illogical and unscriptural. That doesnt mean I feel as tho I have all truth. But I do feel I hav enough truth to present the gospel with confidence, and to stand and declare that hellism is not a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It appears that eventually every human will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, and will have
life in His name, and God will abide in every human, and every human will abide in God:

Using the Peshi+ta tool at dukhrana.com:
Philippians 2:10
(Etheridge) that at the name of Jeshu every knee should kneel, of those in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth;
(Murdock) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [beings] in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth;
(Lamsa) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, of those on earth, and those under the earth,
(KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Philippians 2:11
(Etheridge) and that every tongue should confess that Jeshu the Meshiha is the Lord, to the glory of Aloha his Father.
(Murdock) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord, to the glory of God his Father.
(Lamsa) And every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is the LORD, to the glory of God his Father.
(KJV) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek.  In looking at the Aramaic, I think things should be translated, "....every tongue shall confess that Yeshua the Meshikha is of Master Yah, to the glory of Allaha his Father."

In the OT Hebrew there's YHWH, often translated as "LORD."  In the NT Aramaic, there's "mrya" which is short for "Master YHWH," while "d'mrya" would be of "of Master YHWH."
Greek translations of the original Aramaic NT failed to record the presence of "Master YHWH."

1Corinthians 12:3
(Etheridge) I therefore make known to you, that there is no man who by the Spirit of Aloha speaketh, and saith that Jeshu is accursed; [Cherem.] and no man also can say that Jeshu is THE LORD unless by the Spirit of Holiness.
(Murdock) I therefore inform you, that there is no man, that speaketh by the Spirit of God, who saith that Jesus is accursed: neither can a man say that Jesus is the Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
(Lamsa) Wherefore I want you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the LORD but by the Holy Spirit.
(KJV) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In looking at the Aramaic, I think things should be translated, "no man can say that Yeshua is of Master Yah, but by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness]."

Combining 1Cor 12:3 with Phil 2:10, we get:
Every tongue will confess that Yeshua the Meshikha is of Master Yah;
no man can say that Yeshua is of Master Yah, but by the Holy Spirit.

NKJV
John 20:31  but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in His name.
Romans 1:3-4  concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
1 John 4:15  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God,
God abides in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:5  Who is he who overcomes the world,
but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

It appears that eventually every human will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, and will have
life in His name, and God will abide in every human, and every human will abide in God.

Quote from: eaglesway on August 12, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

We'll have to agree to disagree :gimmefive:

Relying on  our own wisdom in arrogance is not the same as proclaiming the revealed wisdom of God from the scriptures and identifying adversaries to the true gospel of Jesus.

I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation.

I do not think it is going to far at all to say that the doctrine of eternal torment, whether from a Calvinist or Arminian perspective, is a grievous error both illogical and unscriptural. That doesnt mean I feel as tho I have all truth. But I do feel I hav enough truth to present the gospel with confidence, and to stand and declare that hellism is not a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    :iagree: :thumbsup:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 12, 2018, 07:56:18 AM
...God has been humbling me to where I realize that I don't have all of His Truth. We can look at others, but it really takes discernment to sort through the wheat and the tares. Stay away from most commentaries though, they're a load of baloney.

His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, so lean not on your own understanding. How much, therefore, of your own wisdom do you lean on? Nada.

Amen.. The rule/rod/measure of truth, to me, is His Word.. Not anyone's idea of what His Word says, which definitely includes the highly insulting (blasphemous) hell myth.. But if we've been educated by those doctrines, it takes a lot of digesting of His Word to come out of it.. It's like a cult?! Have to be de-programmed? By the renewing of the mind. How? "by the washing of the word".. consistent, and long term in order to reinforce it, and not let go of it.. in the midst of a very "crooked world" (not straight, and not straightforward, crooked, dark, the shadow of death).

I sometimes find some very good perceptions in commentaries, but I agree, a lot of it is false (imo) and I don't read commentary until after verses.. Then it's interlinear, or other versions, then, commentary/other's ideas of what verses are saying.. And, surprise, even the language concordances sometimes run with a definition! I guess due to pre- mis-perception, like the poorly handled 'hell' translations (death/the grave, became eternal fiery torment, oye..)

Quote from: DavidFord on August 28, 2018, 07:45:07 PM
....
NKJV
John 20:31  but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in His name.
Romans 1:3-4  concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
1 John 4:15  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God,
God abides in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:5  Who is he who overcomes the world,
but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

It appears that eventually every human will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, and will have
life in His name, and God will abide in every human, and every human will abide in God.

Another very good study.. I especially focused on this.. Re-affirming (imo) that "believing" is what converts and causes one to be born again.. And where does it say after death, conversion/belief is not possible to save? To "die in your sins" to me, simply means one will rise still in their sins/not yet believing. But after experiencing being resurrected from their grave, who's not going to "believe"? and most repent? Most normal persons.. Although I can't help thinking Judgment 'Day' will commence with quite a bit of confusion.. So many living w/o benefit of hearing about Yhvh or Jesus.. but lived under very different beliefs and even culture..

Quote from: marie glen on August 28, 2018, 10:04:26 PMwhere does it say after death, conversion/belief is not possible to save?

Jesus once preached to people then in sheol, and I bet there were many conversions.  Perhaps Jesus will preach there again, maybe in conjunction with the church invading the place.

3 translations from the original Aramaic, from dukhrana.com
1Peter 3:18 - Because the Meshiha also once died on account of sins, the just on account of sinners, that he might bring [Or, present.] us unto Aloha. And dead in the body and alive in the Spirit,
1Peter 3:18 - For the Messiah also once died for our sins, the righteous for sinners; that he might bring you to God. And he died in body, but lived in spirit.
1Peter 3:18 - For Christ also once suffered for our sins, a just man for sinners, that he might bring you to God, wherefore while he died in the flesh, he lives in the Spirit.
   
1Peter 3:19 - he preached unto those souls who were held in sheul,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;

1Peter 3:20 - those who before were disobedient in the days of Nuch;[Or, Nooch.] while the long-suffering of Aloha commanded that he should make the ark, upon the hope of their conversion, and eight souls only entered therein, and were saved in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - Those who in the past were disobedient; and in the days of Noah, when the Spirit of God had patience, he commanded an ark to be made in the hope of their repentance, but only eight souls entered into it, and were saved by it floating upon the water.

Matthew 16:18
(Etheridge) Also I say unto thee, that thou art Kipha,
and upon this rock will I build my church,
and the gates of Sheul shall not prevail against her.
(Murdock) Also I say to thee, that thou art Cephas:
and upon this rock, I will build my church:
and the gates of death shall not triumph over it.
(Lamsa) I tell you also that you are a stone,
and upon this stone I will build my church;
and the doors of Sheol shall not shut in on it.

I know! Those are so interesting! And shuld be great UR verses, but I believe the dead are 'asleep' and Jesus, the Word, preached by the Spirit of God to those awaiting the building of the ark, or that is, while the ark was being prepared.. Trying to persuade those 100 years of its building.. that they would believe and enter the ark.. ( :laughing7: I don't know if anyone else on the planet believes that.)

Matt 16:17
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell(sheol) shall not prevail against it.

1 Cor 6:2
Know you not that you will judge the world?

Dan 7
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Eph 2
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 1
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Rom 8
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

1 Cor 15
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

In Matthew 16, Jesus speaks of the ecclesia breaking into sheol.

Paul speaks of the saints judging the world, and judging angels, which must surely be in the age(s) to come, in 1 Cor 6

We see prophetic pictures of that in Dan 7 and Rev 20. Most people here the word "judge" and automatically here "condemn", but Romans 8 shows a different result of what the saints will minister in the ages to come. This fire sets souls free from death- as we see in 1 Cor 15, when all the adversaries are subjected, and Phil 2, when every knee has bowed.

the whole creation, which surely includes all the wicked and the good, groans to be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God. They will find their place in that universal restoration- "each in their own order."

This is not just some gradual morph(imo) but as the result of the "first fruits"

Every perfect gift comes down from the "Father of Lights" and we are that gift- the "first-fruits" of creation. Appointed by grace to the restoration of all things, which is why creation groans for the "revelation of the children of God"

The way in which God will show us the "incomparable riches of His grace" in the "ages to come" is to allow us participation as "adopted sons" placed as stewards over the "fulness of times" and the gathering together of all things in one in Christ. It will be glorious. The whole house(the earth and the heavens) will be filled with glory. We will be(and are) a kingdom of priests unto God and the function of a priest is to show people the way into His presence.

The equipping of the saints for the work of service(eph 4) until "we all come unto full stature" is not just in this age- in Eph 4 it speaks of Jesus ascending so that "He may fill all things" and "giving gifts unto men"....

Every perfect gift comes down from the Father of Lights...... We are a kind of first fruits of creation

And after Romans 8, where it speaks of the whole creation being restored, it says...

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

What purpose are we called according to?

With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first(first-fruits) to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

We will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is, and we will be with Him in His throne and inheritance and in the ministry of subjecting the adversaries who remain, in whatever ages there are until the last adversary, death, is destroyed.

Awesome, Awesome, Awesome.

Quote from: DavidFord on August 29, 2018, 12:55:27 AM

Quote from: marie glen on August 28, 2018, 10:04:26 PMwhere does it say after death, conversion/belief is not possible to save?

Jesus once preached to people then in sheol, and I bet there were many conversions.  Perhaps Jesus will preach there again, maybe in conjunction with the church invading the place.

3 translations from the original Aramaic, from dukhrana.com
1Peter 3:18 - Because the Meshiha also once died on account of sins, the just on account of sinners, that he might bring [Or, present.] us unto Aloha. And dead in the body and alive in the Spirit,
1Peter 3:18 - For the Messiah also once died for our sins, the righteous for sinners; that he might bring you to God. And he died in body, but lived in spirit.
1Peter 3:18 - For Christ also once suffered for our sins, a just man for sinners, that he might bring you to God, wherefore while he died in the flesh, he lives in the Spirit.
   
1Peter 3:19 - he preached unto those souls who were held in sheul,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;

1Peter 3:20 - those who before were disobedient in the days of Nuch;[Or, Nooch.] while the long-suffering of Aloha commanded that he should make the ark, upon the hope of their conversion, and eight souls only entered therein, and were saved in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - Those who in the past were disobedient; and in the days of Noah, when the Spirit of God had patience, he commanded an ark to be made in the hope of their repentance, but only eight souls entered into it, and were saved by it floating upon the water.

Matthew 16:18
(Etheridge) Also I say unto thee, that thou art Kipha,
and upon this rock will I build my church,
and the gates of Sheul shall not prevail against her.
(Murdock) Also I say to thee, that thou art Cephas:
and upon this rock, I will build my church:
and the gates of death shall not triumph over it.
(Lamsa) I tell you also that you are a stone,
and upon this stone I will build my church;
and the doors of Sheol shall not shut in on it.

Hello DavidFord,
Related to your post, I thought you might find this interesting:
A while back Bushy started a thread entitled "Mike Parsons".  Somewhere in that thread the topic turned to 1 Peter 3, and GodIsLove posted a link to an article about it (https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm).
Some food for thought, however the whole premise of the article requires use of the words "spirit" and "prison" as translated from the Greek.  Check it out if you are inclined.
Good night,
Pat

 :thumbsup: That's a great link! ( https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm ) - Makes a lot of sense, and uses scripture to define scripture.. :thumbsup:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/3.htm

1 Peter 3:18-20

"...because indeed Christ once  for sins suffered [the] righteous for [the] unrighteous, that us he  might bring to God, having been put to death indeed in [the] flesh, having been made alive however in [the] spirit, in which also to the in prison spirits having gone he preached having disobeyed in time past (ποτε) when was waiting the of God patience in [the] days of Noah being prepared [the] ark in which a few that is eight souls were saved through water..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm

1 Peter 4:6

"...to this [end] indeed even to the dead (νεκρός - nekrós) the good news was proclaimed that they might be judged indeed according to men in [the] flesh, they might live but according to God in [the] spirit..."

In my opinion, Peter was either told this by the arisen Christ or else he received this as a message directly from the Spirit as actual words, either heard externally or internally, in that he could be so specific.

I see this, and again this is my opinion of course: The Spirit of Christ - the Life in His Body of flesh – left the deceased Body at physical death directly from the Cross, and continued His Mission to save the souls who once were in bodies of flesh themselves. As I see it, this is such a gigantic happening that Christendom would do well for its components to seek its deeper meaning.

I personally interpret life and death differently to the more literal method, in that each person has their reckoning upon their individual physical death, it is their "day of judgement", and they are "judged according to their works", so to speak, not according to a metaphysical belief they held in their minds – regardless of what they call it. In my opinion, this means, essentially, that a being is affected by his or her life on earth and how it has lived in accordance with the Way laid down by Christ – every single moment affects spiritual health. It is that simple, it is not necessary for any convoluted mental theories – I believe that God makes it plain and simple – through Christ.

Personally, I do not see any reason to alter what Peter has stated and turn "spirits" into "angels" in order to make Peter's statements fit in with a certain literalistic belief. Peter was quite capable of stating the word "angels" if that was what he meant. In fact, Peter uses the term "angels" (ἀγγέλων) in 1 Peter 3:22 (and doesn't call them "spirits" i.e. πνεύμασιν – pneumasin).

I realise these could be difficult passages to make sense of for those who do not believe in an instant transition (i.e we do not all "sleep"), but to me I can accept Peter's words as they appear on parchment, that is, they are referring to the wicked generation of Noah's time whose behaviour prepared them for an aeon in an unpleasant "place", to say the least.

And what is judged? A belief? Personally I think not - Peter gives us practical examples of the type of behaviour that caused a wicked generation to end up as spirits in prison, although referring to current behaviour...

"...lasciviousnesses, lustful desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries..."

Well, I know that some people believe that when a physical human body dies, they go to "sleep", which sometimes means, we are told, that they cease to exist until a single time in the future when their bodies come back to life – or thereabouts. Of course there are variations on this theory but I leave it at that for brevity.

This I personally call a literalistic traditional interpretation. I believe that this is wonderful in God's eyes, of course! It gives a person a faith to adhere to, a reason to be, comfort as to a future existence – it makes sense of life. And in doing so it also creates in the individual that "conscience" to which Peter refers to in 1 Pet 3:21 (suneidesis) – love for Christ steers them away from sinful living rather than the fear of God; it is "contrition" rather than "attrition".

What a Gift from the Giver of all-Life in the Form of His Son through His birth, life and death – and of course His reappearance three days after death in accordance with the Scriptures, which firmly hammers home the fact that physical death is not the ultimate end – indeed, Christ "brought life and immortality to light" in a previously unimaginable way. What sheer and utter Divine humility and brilliance!

Christ is simple – He is for everybody, He is their Saviour, they do not even have to be able to read or write, they can be young or old – He reaches them today and He will reach them even more so in another 2,000 years time, and He does not give Himself more to one than another – the Gift of being healed spiritually is the same for all. But we, alive today, do not have to wait long to see Christ at work in a way undreamed of – just a few years in the scheme of things, each according to their time.

It is my opinion that there is a much deeper and more God-like meaning to Christ's life and death than the traditionalist point of view incorporates. Concerning the example stated by Peter to the early Christians, I believe that he referred simply to a previous wicked generation who had been undergoing an age-long pruning – in the type of place that Christ referred to in His teaching about the rich man who felt in agony as if in fire ("aeonial" being a suitable adjective for this "fire") - another piece of Scripture that can be taken as Christ spoke it, and which does not need a complex type of interpretation to make it "fit".

But that is just my opinion and I realise it is not the opinion of the regulars on this forum and I apologise in advance. The Bible reflects, for the person reading it, whatever is in their mind - and anyone, of any persuasion, will always find the reflection they are looking for. That is my opinion in my limited experience.

Peace in His Spirit

Quote from: Patinak on August 30, 2018, 10:08:28 AMposted a link to an article about it

Thanks.

https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm
To conclude therefore: when in I Peter 3:19 we read that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, we should not read into it dead people living in a prison, without resurrection, and Jesus going to them to preach the good news. What the Word of God is speaking in I Peter 3:19 is not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison, in the Tartarus, bound in everlasting chains under darkness. Why? Because of what they did in the times of Noah, leaving their own habitation, giving themselves over to fornication and going after "strange flesh", after the daughters of men.

"we should not read into it dead people living in a prison.... not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison"

Do you think some angels have been:  killed?  rendered dead?
Do you think angels can accept "the gospel"?

1 Peter 4:5-6 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204%3A5-7&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm
2097 [e]
euēngelisthē
εὐηγγελίσθη  ,
the gospel was proclaimed

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
even

3498 [e]
nekrois
νεκροῖς
to [the] dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A18-25&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah....

Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2018, 04:25:00 PM
That's a great link! ( https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm ) - Makes a lot of sense

From the link:  "we should not read into it dead people living in a prison.... not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison"
Do you think some angels have been:  killed?  rendered dead?
Do you think angels can accept "the gospel"?

1 Peter 4:5-6 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204%3A5-7&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm
2097 [e]
euēngelisthē
εὐηγγελίσθη  ,
the gospel was proclaimed

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
even

3498 [e]
nekrois
νεκροῖς
to [the] dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A18-25&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah....

Quote from: DavidFord on August 31, 2018, 12:22:58 AM

Quote from: Patinak on August 30, 2018, 10:08:28 AMposted a link to an article about it

Thanks.

https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm
To conclude therefore: when in I Peter 3:19 we read that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, we should not read into it dead people living in a prison, without resurrection, and Jesus going to them to preach the good news. What the Word of God is speaking in I Peter 3:19 is not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison, in the Tartarus, bound in everlasting chains under darkness. Why? Because of what they did in the times of Noah, leaving their own habitation, giving themselves over to fornication and going after "strange flesh", after the daughters of men.

"we should not read into it dead people living in a prison.... not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison"

Do you think some angels have been:  killed?  rendered dead?
Do you think angels can accept "the gospel"?

1 Peter 4:5-6 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204%3A5-7&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm
2097 [e]
euēngelisthē
εὐηγγελίσθη  ,
the gospel was proclaimed

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
even

3498 [e]
nekrois
νεκροῖς
to [the] dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A18-25&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah....

I posted the link a while back as a possible explanation for the passage, your explanation may be true as well, some of these things are hard to discern. As of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint to what you believe on this issue.

Quote from: GodIsLove on August 31, 2018, 02:29:40 AMI posted the link a while back as a possible explanation for the passage, your explanation may be true as well, some of these things are hard to discern. As of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint to what you believe on this issue.

The writer of 1 Peter was familiar with the word "angel," as he used it twice:
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
angelos
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201%3A12&version=NIV;MOUNCE
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
angelos
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203%3A22&version=NIV;MOUNCE

Searching the NIV for mentions of the letter sequence "spirit" in 1 Peter yields the 10 passages below.  Of the 10 passages, how many appear to you to contain a reference to:
angels (whether fallen or not-fallen)?
a human spirit?

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NIV&quicksearch=spirit&begin=67&end=67
1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
1 Peter 1:11
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 2:2
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:4
Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
1 Peter 4:14
If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

It appears that early Christians closest to the time of Christ on Earth not only believed in Universal Salvation but almost all of them believed that Christ preached His Gospel to the so-named dead...


Extracted from:

Quote

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church
During Its First Five Hundred Years

With Authorities and Extracts
By J.W. HANSON, D.D.

V.
Two Kindred Topics.
Gospel Preached to the Dead.

The early Christian church almost, if not quite, universally believed that Christ made proclamation of the Gospel to the dead in Hades. Says Huidekoper: "In the Second and Third Centuries every branch and division of Christians believed that Christ preached to the departed."1 Dietelmaier declares2 this doctrine was believed by all Christians. Of course, if souls were placed where their doom was irretrievable salvation would not be offered to them; whence it follows that the early Christians believed in post-mortem probation. Allin says that "some writers teach that the apostles also preached in Hades. Some say that the Blessed Virgin did the same. Some even say that Simeon went before Christ to Hades." All these testimonies go to show that the earliest of the fathers did not regard the grave as the dead-line which the love of God could not cross, but that the door of mercy is open hereafter as here. "The platonic doctrine of a separate state, where the spirits of the departed are purified, and on which the later doctrine of purgatory was founded, was approved by all the expositors of Christianity who were of the Alexandrian school, as was the custom of performing religious services at the tombs of the dead. Nor was there much difference between them and Tertullian in these particulars."

In the early ages of the church great stress was laid on I Pet. iii. 19: "He (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison." That this doctrine was prevalent as late as Augustine's day is evident from the fact that the doctrine is anathemitised in his list of heresies--number 79. And even as late as the Ninth Century it was condemned by Pope Boniface VI. It was believed that our Lord not only proclaimed the Gospel to all the dead but that he liberated them all. How could it be possible for a Christian to entertain the thought that all the wicked who died before the advent of our Lord were released from bondage, and that any who died after his advent would suffer endless woe? Eusebius says: "Christ, caring for the salvation of all opened a way of return to life for the dead bound in the chains of death." Athanasius: "The devil cast out of Hades, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Savior."3 Origen on I Kings, xxviii:32: "Jesus descended into Hades, and the prophets before him, and they proclaimed beforehand the coming of Christ." Didymus observes "In the liberation of all no one remains a captive; at the time of the Lord's passion he alone (Satan) was injured, who lost all the captives he was keeping." Cyril of Alexandria: "And wandering down even to Hades he has emptied the dark, secret, invisible treasures." Gregory of Nazianzus:4 "Until Christ loosed by his blood all who groaned under Tartarian chains." Jerome on Jonah ii: 6: "Our Lord was shut up in æonian bars in order that he might set free all who had been shut up."

Such passages might be multiplied, demonstrating that the early church regarded the conquest by Christ of the departed as universal. He set free from bonds all the dead in Hades. If the primitive Christians believed that all the wicked of all the æons preceding the death of Christ were released, how can we suppose them to have regarded the wicked subsequent to his death as destined to suffer interminable torments? Clement of Alexandria is explicit in declaring that the Gospel was preached to all, both Jews and Gentiles, in Hades;--that "the sole cause of the Lord's descent to the underworld was to preach the gospel." (Strom. VI.) Origen says: "Not only while Jesus was in the body did he win over not a few only, but when he became a soul, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those souls (in Hades) which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were fit for it."

1 An excellent resume of the opinions of the fathers on Christ's descent into Hades, and preaching the gospel to the dead, is Huidekoper's "The Belief of the First Three Centuries Concerning Christ's Mission to the Underworld;" also Huidekoper's "Indirect Testimony to the Gospels;" also Dean Plumptre's "Spirits in Prison." London: 1884.

2 Historia Dogmatis do Descensu Christi ad Inferos. J. A. Dietelmaier.

3 De Passione et Cruce Domin. Migne, XXVIII, 186-240.

4 Carm. XXXV, v. 9[/size]

Where you see the word "pneuma" in the Greek to be translated as "spirit" then you should think of this was the mental part of you.  It is the 'being' in someone.

in other words, right down everything that makes you - YOU except the physical stuff.  You will have written down the attributes that comprise your 'being' or spirit.

Where you see the word soul usually translated from 'psuche' in Greek then think of this as the exhibition of that spirit.  In other words the operative spirit.

Does anyone here disagree with what's below?

Quote from: lastpost on August 30, 2018, 09:49:40 PM
In my opinion, Peter was either told this by the arisen Christ or else he received this as a message directly from the Spirit as actual words, either heard externally or internally, in that he could be so specific.

I see this, and again this is my opinion of course: The Spirit of Christ - the Life in His Body of flesh – left the deceased Body at physical death directly from the Cross, and continued His Mission to save the souls who once were in bodies of flesh themselves. As I see it, this is such a gigantic happening that Christendom would do well for its components to seek its deeper meaning.

I personally interpret life and death differently to the more literal method, in that each person has their reckoning upon their individual physical death, it is their "day of judgement", and they are "judged according to their works", so to speak, not according to a metaphysical belief they held in their minds – regardless of what they call it. In my opinion, this means, essentially, that a being is affected by his or her life on earth and how it has lived in accordance with the Way laid down by Christ – every single moment affects spiritual health. It is that simple, it is not necessary for any convoluted mental theories – I believe that God makes it plain and simple – through Christ.

Personally, I do not see any reason to alter what Peter has stated and turn "spirits" into "angels" in order to make Peter's statements fit in with a certain literalistic belief. Peter was quite capable of stating the word "angels" if that was what he meant. In fact, Peter uses the term "angels" (ἀγγέλων) in 1 Peter 3:22 (and doesn't call them "spirits" i.e. πνεύμασιν – pneumasin).

I realise these could be difficult passages to make sense of for those who do not believe in an instant transition (i.e we do not all "sleep"), but to me I can accept Peter's words as they appear on parchment, that is, they are referring to the wicked generation of Noah's time whose behaviour prepared them for an aeon in an unpleasant "place", to say the least.

And what is judged? A belief? Personally I think not - Peter gives us practical examples of the type of behaviour that caused a wicked generation to end up as spirits in prison, although referring to current behaviour...

"...lasciviousnesses, lustful desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries..."

....love for Christ steers them away from sinful living rather than the fear of God....

What a Gift from the Giver of all-Life in the Form of His Son through His birth, life and death – and of course His reappearance three days after death in accordance with the Scriptures, which firmly hammers home the fact that physical death is not the ultimate end – indeed, Christ "brought life and immortality to light" in a previously unimaginable way. What sheer and utter Divine humility and brilliance!

Christ is simple – He is for everybody, He is their Saviour, they do not even have to be able to read or write, they can be young or old – He reaches them today and He will reach them even more so in another 2,000 years time, and He does not give Himself more to one than another – the Gift of being healed spiritually is the same for all. But we, alive today, do not have to wait long to see Christ at work in a way undreamed of – just a few years in the scheme of things, each according to their time.

It is my opinion that there is a much deeper and more God-like meaning to Christ's life and death than the traditionalist point of view incorporates. Concerning the example stated by Peter to the early Christians, I believe that he referred simply to a previous wicked generation who had been undergoing an age-long pruning – in the type of place that Christ referred to in His teaching about the rich man who felt in agony as if in fire ("aeonial" being a suitable adjective for this "fire") - another piece of Scripture that can be taken as Christ spoke it, and which does not need a complex type of interpretation to make it "fit".

But that is just my opinion and I realise it is not the opinion of the regulars on this forum and I apologise in advance. The Bible reflects, for the person reading it, whatever is in their mind - and anyone, of any persuasion, will always find the reflection they are looking for. That is my opinion in my limited experience.

Quote from: DavidFord on August 31, 2018, 11:27:40 PM
Does anyone here disagree with what's below?

Quote from: lastpost on August 30, 2018, 09:49:40 PM
In my opinion, Peter was either told this by the arisen Christ or else he received this as a message directly from the Spirit as actual words, either heard externally or internally, in that he could be so specific.

I see this, and again this is my opinion of course: The Spirit of Christ - the Life in His Body of flesh – left the deceased Body at physical death directly from the Cross, and continued His Mission to save the souls who once were in bodies of flesh themselves. As I see it, this is such a gigantic happening that Christendom would do well for its components to seek its deeper meaning.

I personally interpret life and death differently to the more literal method, in that each person has their reckoning upon their individual physical death, it is their "day of judgement", and they are "judged according to their works", so to speak, not according to a metaphysical belief they held in their minds – regardless of what they call it. In my opinion, this means, essentially, that a being is affected by his or her life on earth and how it has lived in accordance with the Way laid down by Christ – every single moment affects spiritual health. It is that simple, it is not necessary for any convoluted mental theories – I believe that God makes it plain and simple – through Christ.

Personally, I do not see any reason to alter what Peter has stated and turn "spirits" into "angels" in order to make Peter's statements fit in with a certain literalistic belief. Peter was quite capable of stating the word "angels" if that was what he meant. In fact, Peter uses the term "angels" (ἀγγέλων) in 1 Peter 3:22 (and doesn't call them "spirits" i.e. πνεύμασιν – pneumasin).

I realise these could be difficult passages to make sense of for those who do not believe in an instant transition (i.e we do not all "sleep"), but to me I can accept Peter's words as they appear on parchment, that is, they are referring to the wicked generation of Noah's time whose behaviour prepared them for an aeon in an unpleasant "place", to say the least.

And what is judged? A belief? Personally I think not - Peter gives us practical examples of the type of behaviour that caused a wicked generation to end up as spirits in prison, although referring to current behaviour...

"...lasciviousnesses, lustful desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries..."

....love for Christ steers them away from sinful living rather than the fear of God....

What a Gift from the Giver of all-Life in the Form of His Son through His birth, life and death – and of course His reappearance three days after death in accordance with the Scriptures, which firmly hammers home the fact that physical death is not the ultimate end – indeed, Christ "brought life and immortality to light" in a previously unimaginable way. What sheer and utter Divine humility and brilliance!

Christ is simple – He is for everybody, He is their Saviour, they do not even have to be able to read or write, they can be young or old – He reaches them today and He will reach them even more so in another 2,000 years time, and He does not give Himself more to one than another – the Gift of being healed spiritually is the same for all. But we, alive today, do not have to wait long to see Christ at work in a way undreamed of – just a few years in the scheme of things, each according to their time.

It is my opinion that there is a much deeper and more God-like meaning to Christ's life and death than the traditionalist point of view incorporates. Concerning the example stated by Peter to the early Christians, I believe that he referred simply to a previous wicked generation who had been undergoing an age-long pruning – in the type of place that Christ referred to in His teaching about the rich man who felt in agony as if in fire ("aeonial" being a suitable adjective for this "fire") - another piece of Scripture that can be taken as Christ spoke it, and which does not need a complex type of interpretation to make it "fit".

But that is just my opinion and I realise it is not the opinion of the regulars on this forum and I apologise in advance. The Bible reflects, for the person reading it, whatever is in their mind - and anyone, of any persuasion, will always find the reflection they are looking for. That is my opinion in my limited experience.

As of right now in my walk I agree with these statements; however I know some others don't necessarily align with all of it, for example some believe in soul sleep and the resurrection of the dead on Earth. I think within the parameters of scripture, Christianity and universal salvation, many differ somewhat on the details.

Quote from: GodIsLove on August 31, 2018, 02:29:40 AMAs of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint

Do you think some angels were shut up in:  Tartarus?  "the deeps"?  "infernal regions"? "the lowest depths"?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
4 And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*, 5 And he did not spare The First World but he preserved Noah, the eighth man, a Preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood over the world of the wicked, 6 And when he burned the cities of Sadom and Amorah and condemned them in an overthrow, when he set an example to the wicked who were to come,

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

Quote from: DavidFord on September 01, 2018, 03:24:37 PM

Quote from: GodIsLove on August 31, 2018, 02:29:40 AMAs of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint

Do you think some angels were shut up in:  Tartarus?  "the deeps"?  "infernal regions"? "the lowest depths"?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
4 And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*, 5 And he did not spare The First World but he preserved Noah, the eighth man, a Preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood over the world of the wicked, 6 And when he burned the cities of Sadom and Amorah and condemned them in an overthrow, when he set an example to the wicked who were to come,

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

To answer your question: no idea!

To use Eaglesway's often used phrase, I believe we are "seeing through the glass darkly" on these matters.

Edit: I believe Tartus to be a Greek concept similar to the word "Hades" and therefore isn't in my belief system but was a word used to portray a concept in the ancient times that the readers would understand.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 01, 2018, 07:07:50 PM
To use Eaglesway's often used phrase, I believe we are 'seeing through the glass darkly' on these matters"

Are you having 2-way conversations with God-- and if so, have you asked God about these matters?  Examples of such 2-way conversations appear in:
Mark Holloway, _The Freedom Diaries:  God Speaks Back_ (2013), 287pp.
Mark Holloway, _Cry the Wounded Land: Conversations with God about Maori,
Pakeha and the Land_ (2017), 298pp.
David Manuel, _Once Upon a Prayer: How to Hear God in Your Heart_ (2004), 111pp.
Brad Jersak and Eden Jersak, _Rivers from Eden: 40 Days of Intimate
Conversation with God_ (2004), 175pp.

QuoteI believe Tartus to be a Greek concept similar to the word "Hades" and therefore isn't in my belief system but was a word used to portray a concept in the ancient times that the readers would understand.

Do you think Tartarus was, or wasn't, in the original rendition of 2 Peter?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,
2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment

Quote from: DavidFord on September 01, 2018, 11:32:08 PM

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 01, 2018, 07:07:50 PM
To use Eaglesway's often used phrase, I believe we are 'seeing through the glass darkly' on these matters"

Are you having 2-way conversations with God-- and if so, have you asked God about these matters?  Examples of such 2-way conversations appear in:
Mark Holloway, _The Freedom Diaries:  God Speaks Back_ (2013), 287pp.
Mark Holloway, _Cry the Wounded Land: Conversations with God about Maori,
Pakeha and the Land_ (2017), 298pp.
David Manuel, _Once Upon a Prayer: How to Hear God in Your Heart_ (2004), 111pp.
Brad Jersak and Eden Jersak, _Rivers from Eden: 40 Days of Intimate
Conversation with God_ (2004), 175pp.

QuoteI believe Tartus to be a Greek concept similar to the word "Hades" and therefore isn't in my belief system but was a word used to portray a concept in the ancient times that the readers would understand.

Do you think Tartarus was, or wasn't, in the original rendition of 2 Peter?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,
2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment

I haven't looked into your claims of the Aramaic origins to the scriptures, I don't doubt it could be true but it's not on the forefront for me right now, maybe in the future...so in that case I'll say I thought it was in the original Greek and leave it at that.

As far as the two way conversation I'll look into the links but for now yes I feel that God guides me and I pray to him on basically all matters; asking, seeking, thanking, etc. it's all an indicidual process and I don't claim superiority or inferiority to others, just unique journeys we are all on to get back to the source of all, God, through Jesus the Christ and his example and guidance. I don't think we are given all the answers at once; it's an unfolding as we are prepared for the next step in growing.

Quote from: lastpost on August 31, 2018, 10:52:04 PM

It appears that early Christians closest to the time of Christ on Earth not only believed in Universal Salvation but almost all of them believed that Christ preached His Gospel to the so-named dead...


Extracted from:

Quote

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church
During Its First Five Hundred Years

With Authorities and Extracts
By J.W. HANSON, D.D.

V.
Two Kindred Topics.
Gospel Preached to the Dead.

The early Christian church almost, if not quite, universally believed that Christ made proclamation of the Gospel to the dead in Hades. Says Huidekoper: "In the Second and Third Centuries every branch and division of Christians believed that Christ preached to the departed."1 Dietelmaier declares2 this doctrine was believed by all Christians. Of course, if souls were placed where their doom was irretrievable salvation would not be offered to them; whence it follows that the early Christians believed in post-mortem probation. Allin says that "some writers teach that the apostles also preached in Hades. Some say that the Blessed Virgin did the same. Some even say that Simeon went before Christ to Hades." All these testimonies go to show that the earliest of the fathers did not regard the grave as the dead-line which the love of God could not cross, but that the door of mercy is open hereafter as here. "The platonic doctrine of a separate state, where the spirits of the departed are purified, and on which the later doctrine of purgatory was founded, was approved by all the expositors of Christianity who were of the Alexandrian school, as was the custom of performing religious services at the tombs of the dead. Nor was there much difference between them and Tertullian in these particulars."

In the early ages of the church great stress was laid on I Pet. iii. 19: "He (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison." That this doctrine was prevalent as late as Augustine's day is evident from the fact that the doctrine is anathemitised in his list of heresies--number 79. And even as late as the Ninth Century it was condemned by Pope Boniface VI. It was believed that our Lord not only proclaimed the Gospel to all the dead but that he liberated them all. How could it be possible for a Christian to entertain the thought that all the wicked who died before the advent of our Lord were released from bondage, and that any who died after his advent would suffer endless woe? Eusebius says: "Christ, caring for the salvation of all opened a way of return to life for the dead bound in the chains of death." Athanasius: "The devil cast out of Hades, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Savior."3 Origen on I Kings, xxviii:32: "Jesus descended into Hades, and the prophets before him, and they proclaimed beforehand the coming of Christ." Didymus observes "In the liberation of all no one remains a captive; at the time of the Lord's passion he alone (Satan) was injured, who lost all the captives he was keeping." Cyril of Alexandria: "And wandering down even to Hades he has emptied the dark, secret, invisible treasures." Gregory of Nazianzus:4 "Until Christ loosed by his blood all who groaned under Tartarian chains." Jerome on Jonah ii: 6: "Our Lord was shut up in æonian bars in order that he might set free all who had been shut up."

Such passages might be multiplied, demonstrating that the early church regarded the conquest by Christ of the departed as universal. He set free from bonds all the dead in Hades. If the primitive Christians believed that all the wicked of all the æons preceding the death of Christ were released, how can we suppose them to have regarded the wicked subsequent to his death as destined to suffer interminable torments? Clement of Alexandria is explicit in declaring that the Gospel was preached to all, both Jews and Gentiles, in Hades;--that "the sole cause of the Lord's descent to the underworld was to preach the gospel." (Strom. VI.) Origen says: "Not only while Jesus was in the body did he win over not a few only, but when he became a soul, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those souls (in Hades) which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were fit for it."

1 An excellent resume of the opinions of the fathers on Christ's descent into Hades, and preaching the gospel to the dead, is Huidekoper's "The Belief of the First Three Centuries Concerning Christ's Mission to the Underworld;" also Huidekoper's "Indirect Testimony to the Gospels;" also Dean Plumptre's "Spirits in Prison." London: 1884.

2 Historia Dogmatis do Descensu Christi ad Inferos. J. A. Dietelmaier.

3 De Passione et Cruce Domin. Migne, XXVIII, 186-240.

4 Carm. XXXV, v. 9

TWIMC, at the risk of being over pedantic, on Tentmaker's page...

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#61

...I noticed that the superscript reference number 4 (i.e. see above quote 2nd para: "Gregory of Nazianzus:⁴)" referencing footnote "4 Carm. XXXV, v. 9" is missing, as shown here...

https://archive.org/stream/universalismprev00hans#page/62

...on archive.org on the third line at the top of page 63 after "Gregory of Nazianzus".


Personally I feel this is important because not only is Universal Restoration believed as truth by the early church fathers - so nearly associated with the generations closest to Christ and His disciples - but almost all of them believed that Christ left His body at the Cross to preach His Gospel to the ears of the "dead" and the "doctrine was prevalent as late as Augustine's day" until he attacked it as a heresy.

Is it logical for so many early Christians to be absolutely correct about Universal Salvation and yet almost all of them to be absolutely wrong about Christ preaching His Gospel of Love to the dead who were killed at the time of Noah?

Methinks not. There was something prevalent amongst the earliest Christians – by the power, comfort and guidance of the Holy Spirit - that assured them of the certainty of that which Origen spoke:

"Not only while Jesus was in the body did he win over not a few only, but when he became a soul, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those souls (in Hades) which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were fit for it."

Of course (imo :laughing7: ) they could be absolutely right about something and wrong about something else. Why not? They were human and right in the New Testament letters it says the spirit of iniquity was already at work, and how they had been of them, the believers, but had not remained with them.

Sometimes I think the  w h o l e  ET Church stems directly from those notorious Gnostics. I believe the Gnostics mixed Jesus with previous 'esoteric' pagan beliefs the world over.. Gnosticism has been a loose collection. One of those very first lies delivered to Eve, was .."surely you won't die..?" It is deeep in the psyche of man. (Imo anyway. :smile: )

If I thought the Bible itself supports inherent immortality of mortals, then I would believe it.

But I believe two things about the verse about preaching in hades/prison, it was to angels, which elsewhere it refers to their being in chains of Tartarus.. (but being Hebrew Peter may have merely written deepest darkness originally).. But I lean toward believing He went via the Spirit whilecthe ark was being prepared and preached to those scoffers outside the ark..

"The soul that sins shall die".. I've never been able to accept the idea that death is another form of living. "There is only One who is immortal".

But disagreeing is okay! :gsmile:
In the scheme of things, I'm likely in the minority on this..

HARROWING OF HELL" IN CANON AND APOCRYPHA

One of the primary beliefs of the early Christians was that Jesus descended into Sheol/Hades in order to preach to the dead and rescue all of those, as it clearly says in I Peter 3:20, "who in former times did not obey." This terminology is familiar to anyone who has recited the Apostle's Creed which states that Jesus descended to Hell after his death, before his resurrection. Known as the "Harrowing of Hell," this is a major theme in Universalism because it underscores the early belief that judgment at the end of life is not final and that all souls can be saved after death. Interestingly, in the early Church there were not only prayers for the dead, but St. Paul notes there were also baptisms for the dead (I Cor 15: 29).

In later times, the church attempted to reinterpret the text to narrow the categories of people saved from Hell to the Jewish prophets and the righteous pagans. Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan take this approach in their latest book, The Last Week. (Curiously, they omit the key verse "those who in former times did not obey.") However, in his earlier book, The Cross That Spoke, John Dominic Crossan is more favorable to the Universalist view. For example, he relates a story from the non-canonical Gospel of Peter in which two angels come down from Heaven to get Jesus out of the tomb on Easter morning. As they are carrying him out and are about to ascend to Heaven, a voice from Heaven asks them, "Hast thou preached to them that sleep?" The wooden cross that is somehow following them out of the tomb speaks and says, "Yes!" In discussing Jesus' decent into Hell, Crossan also sites another classic Universalist text, I Peter 4:6 which says, "For this is why the Gospel was preached even to the dead, that though they were judged in flesh like men they might live in the spirit like God." He also notes that in Colossians 2:15, Jesus, "disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them," and in Ephesians 4:8-9:

Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high, he made captivity itself a captive; he gave gifts to his people." (When it says, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all heavens, so that he might fill all things.")

Understanding the role of the "Harrowing of Hell" has been expanded by recent archeological findings and modern Biblical scholarship. Among the discoveries over the past 100 years is the Apocalypse of Peter, written about 135 C.E. (not to be confused with the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter discovered at Nag Hammadi in 1947). For a time, it was considered for inclusion into the New Testament instead of the Revelation to John. It is referred to in the Muratorian Canon of the early Church, as well as in the writings of St. Clement of Alexandria. (It should be noted that the Universalist passage from the Apocalypse of Peter is found in the Ethiopian text but is not part of the fragment text found at Akhmim, Egypt.) In the Ethiopic copy, Peter asks Jesus to have pity on the people in Hell, and Jesus says they will eventually all be saved. Later, Peter (who is writing to Clement) says to keep that knowledge a secret so that foolish men may not see it. This same theme is repeated in the Second Book of the Sibyline Oracles in which the saved behold the sinners in Hell and ask that mercy be shown them. Here, the sinners are saved by the prayers of the righteous.

Another 2nd Century work, The Epistle to the Apostles, also states that our prayers for the dead can affect their forgiveness by God. The 2nd Century Odes of Solomon, which was discovered in the early 20th Century, was for a time considered to be Jewish, then Gnostic, and more recently, early Christian. Its theme is that Jesus saves the dead when they come to him in Hell and cry out, "Son of God, have pity on us!" In the 4th/6th Century Syriac Book of the Cave of Treasures, Jesus "preached the resurrection to those who were lying in the dust" and "pardoned those who had sinned against the Law." In the Gospel of Nicodemus (a.k.a. Acts of Pilate), a 4th /5th Century apocryphal gospel, Jesus saves everyone in the Greek version but rescues only the righteous pre-Christians in the Latin translation. In What is Gnosticism?, Karen King identifies the Nag Hammadi Gospel of Truth as teaching Universal Salvation; she states that The Apocryphon of John (a.k.a. The Secret Book of John) declares all will be saved except apostates. In the Coptic Book of the Resurrection, all but Satan and his ministers are pardoned.

Interestingly, belief in the "Harrowing of Hell" has had some validation by modern day near-death experiencers (people who have been resuscitated following a period of clinical death). While most near-death experiencers report a "heavenly" experience of Light and overwhelming love, many of those whose experience begins in "hellish" turmoil and darkness say that their descent was reversed when they called out to God or Jesus.

From: https://christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/salvation-conspiracy/

 :Chinscratch:

Very interesting.. Interesting discussion! conscious, unconscious, semi conscious.. I have the crazy idea no humans will go to lake of fire.. As I think that surely by end of Judgment / review of all history? and having experienced either waking from their grave or otherwise, all will have repented and been reconciled with God, for after all that? Who’s not going to “believe”?! And thus have their name be in the Book of Life. And it is the last verse - Bk of Life - of the chapter and scene. At which time also hell/Sheol/Hades is cast into the LOF, the 2nd death.

I have to add, maybe because I’m compulsive something or other, :laughing7: idk, but in the previous chapter (19) the “beast and false prophet” cast to the LOF at Jesus’ return, I do not believe are humans but a false prophet/teacher/teaching which brought the “strong delusion” which has caused the “falling away” of Western Civilization, once called Christendom, from the faith. (And thus now, Jude 14, “people make fun of God” Contemporary English Version). And the beast being the big one, an institution, of 13:1-10, not the office(?) of 13:11-18, ‘active’ at the time of Jesus’ return.
:Peace2: :girlheart:

I think the lake of fire is the presence of Jesus, the body of Christ and saints from all the former ages

"Know you not you will judge the world"

"Know you not you will judge angels"

The fire is in His eyes

"And His eyes were as flames of fire"

And His presence

"His face was like the sun shining in its strength"

And His word

"His word is like a fire and a hammer that breaks the rocks" Jer 23:29

And His people

9 "As I looked,

"thrones were set in place,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
    the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
    and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
    coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
    ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
    and the books were opened.

So I think when Jesus is speaking to people,

"Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels"

He is speaking of the trial of coming before the judgment seat of Christ, where those who remain adversaries will be "disarmed" by the cross of Jesus CHrist which is the revelation of His love,

"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" Col 2:15

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

"What no eye has seen,

what no ear has heard,

and what no human mind has conceived" —

the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit."


IMO,  if Jesus says there will be aionan fire, it will be so. What the nature of that fire is, is what makes it abhorent. Flames burning flesh forever, or even for 1000 years- Jesus never says that. The nature of the fire is His love and truth.

He only says there will be fire,

"Our God is a consuming fire"...Light is fire to darkness. I think the lake of fire is the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Prophetic word, the mirror into which a person peers and will not forget the image they see there, bringing truth into the inner man, into the heart of hearts.

15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The fire consumes the veil- the light of His presence capturing the heart- the testimony of the cross bringing repentance and love. Light shining out of darkness.

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.....For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." 2 Cor 4

"We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." 2 Peter 1:19

"I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."Rev 19:20

:2c: