every knee will bow and every tongue confess... to the glory of God the Father.

[Batty Bible Page]

 :dontknow:  I could be wrong but I don't see any wording even in the interlinear versions wherein it shall be a forced thing.
I take the scripture to mean, every knee will bow and every tongue confess because the world comes under grace.
I could be wrong.
Lord knows strangers tings have appened.  :laugh:

[marie glen]

Amen! BBP! Reading the verse  recently, in the interlinear and following the link -

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-11.htm

I was happy to note who the translated phrase "every tongue will confess, will confess in the original intent, included "wholeheartedly".. every tongue will wholeheartedly confess "Jesus is Lord!"

https://biblehub.com/greek/1843.htm

   :thumbsup: :gsmile:

[Dandelion]

1 John 4:

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

The line in purple nails it for me.......If anyone confesses, God abides in Him. I take this as a Biblical contradiction of the 'force you to worship' theory.

And, I believe the rest of the Bible substantiates this....absolutely!

D.

[Batty Bible Page]

Amen! BBP! Reading the verse  recently, in the interlinear and following the link -

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-11.htm

I was happy to note who the translated phrase "every tongue will confess, will confess in the original intent, included "wholeheartedly".. every tongue will wholeheartedly confess "Jesus is Lord!"

https://biblehub.com/greek/1843.htm

   :thumbsup: :gsmile:

:girlheart: :thumbsup:

1 John 4:

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Interesting. I am continually amazed at how scripture can look so different from a Universalist Reconciliationist point of view.

D.

The line in purple nails it for me.......If anyone confesses, God abides in Him. I take this as a Biblical contradiction of the 'force you to worship' theory.

And, I believe the rest of the Bible substantiates this....absolutely!

D.

Great post. The fear paradigm delivered by the Hell fire teaching really doesn't make sense.

[eaglesway]

Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

[marie glen]

Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

Amen! That sums those doctrinal beliefs up excellently! And with few words to boot!  :sigh: Good to know that one day "common" sense will rule supreme. :cloud9: And logic, which I believe is a modern adjective of its root word, logos..

[Batty Bible Page]

Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

The after effects of man compiling the writings of over 40 different authors, electing over centuries parts to be included into what would inevitably be voted as a closed canon. I.E. the last time God would ever speak to his people.

That's why the Holy Bible says, Holy Bible, Holy Book, on its cover and is said to be God's words. Rather than having, "God's Words", embossed on the cover.

[eaglesway]

Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

I love your common-sense posts.
I checked out that CS Lewis book you spoke of but to be honest...I'm going to seek my own way without anyone elses thoughts/views.  My brain is a bit tired from all that.

:thumbsup:

[MusicLover123]

Makes no sense at all. Mind-blowing to me that a Calvinist would see all these people chosen to burn forever forced to bow and confess before being condemned to eternal torment for walking a path they were predestined to walk... or that an Aminian would consider free will so important that God would rather torment someone forever than lead them inevitably to the cross, yet this same God would force a confession and crush to the knees a rebel destined for eternal torment- just totally illogical, in addition to being unscriptural.

I love your common-sense posts.
I checked out that CS Lewis book you spoke of but to be honest...I'm going to seek my own way without anyone elses thoughts/views.  My brain is a bit tired from all that.

:thumbsup:

I have to disagree a bit. Sorry  :punish: (I'm the guy on the left)

God's Spirit will guide you on all things. Over time, through our fiery trials, we will learn how to discern God's voice from others. Not only testing every Spirit, but also our own.

Don't seek your own way! Seek Christ, as He is the way, the Truth and the Life.

I had that attitude before too. But, God has been humbling me to where I realize that I don't have all of His Truth. We can look at others, but it really takes discernment to sort through the wheat and the tares. Stay away from most commentaries though, they're a load of baloney.

His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, so lean not on your own understanding. How much, therefore, of your own wisdom do you lean on? Nada.

[eaglesway]

 With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

We'll have to agree to disagree :gimmefive:

Relying on  our own wisdom in arrogance is not the same as proclaiming the revealed wisdom of God from the scriptures and identifying adversaries to the true gospel of Jesus.

I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation.

I do not think it is going to far at all to say that the doctrine of eternal torment, whether from a Calvinist or Arminian perspective, is a grievous error both illogical and unscriptural. That doesnt mean I feel as tho I have all truth. But I do feel I hav enough truth to present the gospel with confidence, and to stand and declare that hellism is not a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[DavidFord]

It appears that eventually every human will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, and will have
life in His name, and God will abide in every human, and every human will abide in God:

Using the Peshi+ta tool at dukhrana.com:
Philippians 2:10
(Etheridge) that at the name of Jeshu every knee should kneel, of those in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth;
(Murdock) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [beings] in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth;
(Lamsa) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, of those on earth, and those under the earth,
(KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Philippians 2:11
(Etheridge) and that every tongue should confess that Jeshu the Meshiha is the Lord, to the glory of Aloha his Father.
(Murdock) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord, to the glory of God his Father.
(Lamsa) And every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is the LORD, to the glory of God his Father.
(KJV) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek.  In looking at the Aramaic, I think things should be translated, "....every tongue shall confess that Yeshua the Meshikha is of Master Yah, to the glory of Allaha his Father."

In the OT Hebrew there's YHWH, often translated as "LORD."  In the NT Aramaic, there's "mrya" which is short for "Master YHWH," while "d'mrya" would be of "of Master YHWH."
Greek translations of the original Aramaic NT failed to record the presence of "Master YHWH."

1Corinthians 12:3
(Etheridge) I therefore make known to you, that there is no man who by the Spirit of Aloha speaketh, and saith that Jeshu is accursed; [Cherem.] and no man also can say that Jeshu is THE LORD unless by the Spirit of Holiness.
(Murdock) I therefore inform you, that there is no man, that speaketh by the Spirit of God, who saith that Jesus is accursed: neither can a man say that Jesus is the Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
(Lamsa) Wherefore I want you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the LORD but by the Holy Spirit.
(KJV) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In looking at the Aramaic, I think things should be translated, "no man can say that Yeshua is of Master Yah, but by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness]."

Combining 1Cor 12:3 with Phil 2:10, we get:
Every tongue will confess that Yeshua the Meshikha is of Master Yah;
no man can say that Yeshua is of Master Yah, but by the Holy Spirit.

NKJV
John 20:31  but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in His name.
Romans 1:3-4  concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
1 John 4:15  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God,
God abides in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:5  Who is he who overcomes the world,
but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

It appears that eventually every human will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, and will have
life in His name, and God will abide in every human, and every human will abide in God.

[marie glen]

With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

We'll have to agree to disagree :gimmefive:

Relying on  our own wisdom in arrogance is not the same as proclaiming the revealed wisdom of God from the scriptures and identifying adversaries to the true gospel of Jesus.

I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation.

I do not think it is going to far at all to say that the doctrine of eternal torment, whether from a Calvinist or Arminian perspective, is a grievous error both illogical and unscriptural. That doesnt mean I feel as tho I have all truth. But I do feel I hav enough truth to present the gospel with confidence, and to stand and declare that hellism is not a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    :iagree: :thumbsup:

...God has been humbling me to where I realize that I don't have all of His Truth. We can look at others, but it really takes discernment to sort through the wheat and the tares. Stay away from most commentaries though, they're a load of baloney.

His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, so lean not on your own understanding. How much, therefore, of your own wisdom do you lean on? Nada.

Amen.. The rule/rod/measure of truth, to me, is His Word.. Not anyone's idea of what His Word says, which definitely includes the highly insulting (blasphemous) hell myth.. But if we've been educated by those doctrines, it takes a lot of digesting of His Word to come out of it.. It's like a cult?! Have to be de-programmed? By the renewing of the mind. How? "by the washing of the word".. consistent, and long term in order to reinforce it, and not let go of it.. in the midst of a very "crooked world" (not straight, and not straightforward, crooked, dark, the shadow of death).

I sometimes find some very good perceptions in commentaries, but I agree, a lot of it is false (imo) and I don't read commentary until after verses.. Then it's interlinear, or other versions, then, commentary/other's ideas of what verses are saying.. And, surprise, even the language concordances sometimes run with a definition! I guess due to pre- mis-perception, like the poorly handled 'hell' translations (death/the grave, became eternal fiery torment, oye..)

[marie glen]

....
NKJV
John 20:31  but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that believing you may have life in His name.
Romans 1:3-4  concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
1 John 4:15  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God,
God abides in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:5  Who is he who overcomes the world,
but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

It appears that eventually every human will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, and will have
life in His name, and God will abide in every human, and every human will abide in God.

Another very good study.. I especially focused on this.. Re-affirming (imo) that "believing" is what converts and causes one to be born again.. And where does it say after death, conversion/belief is not possible to save? To "die in your sins" to me, simply means one will rise still in their sins/not yet believing. But after experiencing being resurrected from their grave, who's not going to "believe"? and most repent? Most normal persons.. Although I can't help thinking Judgment 'Day' will commence with quite a bit of confusion.. So many living w/o benefit of hearing about Yhvh or Jesus.. but lived under very different beliefs and even culture..

[DavidFord]

where does it say after death, conversion/belief is not possible to save?

Jesus once preached to people then in sheol, and I bet there were many conversions.  Perhaps Jesus will preach there again, maybe in conjunction with the church invading the place.

3 translations from the original Aramaic, from dukhrana.com
1Peter 3:18 - Because the Meshiha also once died on account of sins, the just on account of sinners, that he might bring [Or, present.] us unto Aloha. And dead in the body and alive in the Spirit,
1Peter 3:18 - For the Messiah also once died for our sins, the righteous for sinners; that he might bring you to God. And he died in body, but lived in spirit.
1Peter 3:18 - For Christ also once suffered for our sins, a just man for sinners, that he might bring you to God, wherefore while he died in the flesh, he lives in the Spirit.
   
1Peter 3:19 - he preached unto those souls who were held in sheul,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;

1Peter 3:20 - those who before were disobedient in the days of Nuch;[Or, Nooch.] while the long-suffering of Aloha commanded that he should make the ark, upon the hope of their conversion, and eight souls only entered therein, and were saved in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - Those who in the past were disobedient; and in the days of Noah, when the Spirit of God had patience, he commanded an ark to be made in the hope of their repentance, but only eight souls entered into it, and were saved by it floating upon the water.

Matthew 16:18
(Etheridge) Also I say unto thee, that thou art Kipha,
and upon this rock will I build my church,
and the gates of Sheul shall not prevail against her.
(Murdock) Also I say to thee, that thou art Cephas:
and upon this rock, I will build my church:
and the gates of death shall not triumph over it.
(Lamsa) I tell you also that you are a stone,
and upon this stone I will build my church;
and the doors of Sheol shall not shut in on it.

[marie glen]

I know! Those are so interesting! And shuld be great UR verses, but I believe the dead are 'asleep' and Jesus, the Word, preached by the Spirit of God to those awaiting the building of the ark, or that is, while the ark was being prepared.. Trying to persuade those 100 years of its building.. that they would believe and enter the ark.. ( :laughing7: I don't know if anyone else on the planet believes that.)

[eaglesway]

Matt 16:17
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell(sheol) shall not prevail against it.

1 Cor 6:2
Know you not that you will judge the world?

Dan 7
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Eph 2
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 1
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Rom 8
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

1 Cor 15
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

In Matthew 16, Jesus speaks of the ecclesia breaking into sheol.

Paul speaks of the saints judging the world, and judging angels, which must surely be in the age(s) to come, in 1 Cor 6

We see prophetic pictures of that in Dan 7 and Rev 20. Most people here the word "judge" and automatically here "condemn", but Romans 8 shows a different result of what the saints will minister in the ages to come. This fire sets souls free from death- as we see in 1 Cor 15, when all the adversaries are subjected, and Phil 2, when every knee has bowed.

the whole creation, which surely includes all the wicked and the good, groans to be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God. They will find their place in that universal restoration- "each in their own order."

This is not just some gradual morph(imo) but as the result of the "first fruits"

Every perfect gift comes down from the "Father of Lights" and we are that gift- the "first-fruits" of creation. Appointed by grace to the restoration of all things, which is why creation groans for the "revelation of the children of God"

The way in which God will show us the "incomparable riches of His grace" in the "ages to come" is to allow us participation as "adopted sons" placed as stewards over the "fulness of times" and the gathering together of all things in one in Christ. It will be glorious. The whole house(the earth and the heavens) will be filled with glory. We will be(and are) a kingdom of priests unto God and the function of a priest is to show people the way into His presence.

The equipping of the saints for the work of service(eph 4) until "we all come unto full stature" is not just in this age- in Eph 4 it speaks of Jesus ascending so that "He may fill all things" and "giving gifts unto men"....

Every perfect gift comes down from the Father of Lights...... We are a kind of first fruits of creation

And after Romans 8, where it speaks of the whole creation being restored, it says...

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

What purpose are we called according to?

With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first(first-fruits) to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

We will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is, and we will be with Him in His throne and inheritance and in the ministry of subjecting the adversaries who remain, in whatever ages there are until the last adversary, death, is destroyed.

Awesome, Awesome, Awesome.

[Patinak]

where does it say after death, conversion/belief is not possible to save?

Jesus once preached to people then in sheol, and I bet there were many conversions.  Perhaps Jesus will preach there again, maybe in conjunction with the church invading the place.

3 translations from the original Aramaic, from dukhrana.com
1Peter 3:18 - Because the Meshiha also once died on account of sins, the just on account of sinners, that he might bring [Or, present.] us unto Aloha. And dead in the body and alive in the Spirit,
1Peter 3:18 - For the Messiah also once died for our sins, the righteous for sinners; that he might bring you to God. And he died in body, but lived in spirit.
1Peter 3:18 - For Christ also once suffered for our sins, a just man for sinners, that he might bring you to God, wherefore while he died in the flesh, he lives in the Spirit.
   
1Peter 3:19 - he preached unto those souls who were held in sheul,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,
1Peter 3:19 - And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;

1Peter 3:20 - those who before were disobedient in the days of Nuch;[Or, Nooch.] while the long-suffering of Aloha commanded that he should make the ark, upon the hope of their conversion, and eight souls only entered therein, and were saved in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.
1Peter 3:20 - Those who in the past were disobedient; and in the days of Noah, when the Spirit of God had patience, he commanded an ark to be made in the hope of their repentance, but only eight souls entered into it, and were saved by it floating upon the water.

Matthew 16:18
(Etheridge) Also I say unto thee, that thou art Kipha,
and upon this rock will I build my church,
and the gates of Sheul shall not prevail against her.
(Murdock) Also I say to thee, that thou art Cephas:
and upon this rock, I will build my church:
and the gates of death shall not triumph over it.
(Lamsa) I tell you also that you are a stone,
and upon this stone I will build my church;
and the doors of Sheol shall not shut in on it.

Hello DavidFord,
Related to your post, I thought you might find this interesting:
A while back Bushy started a thread entitled "Mike Parsons".  Somewhere in that thread the topic turned to 1 Peter 3, and GodIsLove posted a link to an article about it (https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm).
Some food for thought, however the whole premise of the article requires use of the words "spirit" and "prison" as translated from the Greek.  Check it out if you are inclined.
Good night,
Pat

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: That's a great link! ( https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm ) - Makes a lot of sense, and uses scripture to define scripture.. :thumbsup:

[lastpost]

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/3.htm

1 Peter 3:18-20

"...because indeed Christ once  for sins suffered [the] righteous for [the] unrighteous, that us he  might bring to God, having been put to death indeed in [the] flesh, having been made alive however in [the] spirit, in which also to the in prison spirits having gone he preached having disobeyed in time past (ποτε) when was waiting the of God patience in [the] days of Noah being prepared [the] ark in which a few that is eight souls were saved through water..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm

1 Peter 4:6

"...to this [end] indeed even to the dead (νεκρός - nekrós) the good news was proclaimed that they might be judged indeed according to men in [the] flesh, they might live but according to God in [the] spirit..."

In my opinion, Peter was either told this by the arisen Christ or else he received this as a message directly from the Spirit as actual words, either heard externally or internally, in that he could be so specific.

I see this, and again this is my opinion of course: The Spirit of Christ - the Life in His Body of flesh – left the deceased Body at physical death directly from the Cross, and continued His Mission to save the souls who once were in bodies of flesh themselves. As I see it, this is such a gigantic happening that Christendom would do well for its components to seek its deeper meaning.

I personally interpret life and death differently to the more literal method, in that each person has their reckoning upon their individual physical death, it is their "day of judgement", and they are "judged according to their works", so to speak, not according to a metaphysical belief they held in their minds – regardless of what they call it. In my opinion, this means, essentially, that a being is affected by his or her life on earth and how it has lived in accordance with the Way laid down by Christ – every single moment affects spiritual health. It is that simple, it is not necessary for any convoluted mental theories – I believe that God makes it plain and simple – through Christ.

Personally, I do not see any reason to alter what Peter has stated and turn "spirits" into "angels" in order to make Peter's statements fit in with a certain literalistic belief. Peter was quite capable of stating the word "angels" if that was what he meant. In fact, Peter uses the term "angels" (ἀγγέλων) in 1 Peter 3:22 (and doesn't call them "spirits" i.e. πνεύμασιν – pneumasin).

I realise these could be difficult passages to make sense of for those who do not believe in an instant transition (i.e we do not all "sleep"), but to me I can accept Peter's words as they appear on parchment, that is, they are referring to the wicked generation of Noah's time whose behaviour prepared them for an aeon in an unpleasant "place", to say the least.

And what is judged? A belief? Personally I think not - Peter gives us practical examples of the type of behaviour that caused a wicked generation to end up as spirits in prison, although referring to current behaviour...

"...lasciviousnesses, lustful desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries..."

Well, I know that some people believe that when a physical human body dies, they go to "sleep", which sometimes means, we are told, that they cease to exist until a single time in the future when their bodies come back to life – or thereabouts. Of course there are variations on this theory but I leave it at that for brevity.

This I personally call a literalistic traditional interpretation. I believe that this is wonderful in God's eyes, of course! It gives a person a faith to adhere to, a reason to be, comfort as to a future existence – it makes sense of life. And in doing so it also creates in the individual that "conscience" to which Peter refers to in 1 Pet 3:21 (suneidesis) – love for Christ steers them away from sinful living rather than the fear of God; it is "contrition" rather than "attrition".

What a Gift from the Giver of all-Life in the Form of His Son through His birth, life and death – and of course His reappearance three days after death in accordance with the Scriptures, which firmly hammers home the fact that physical death is not the ultimate end – indeed, Christ "brought life and immortality to light" in a previously unimaginable way. What sheer and utter Divine humility and brilliance!

Christ is simple – He is for everybody, He is their Saviour, they do not even have to be able to read or write, they can be young or old – He reaches them today and He will reach them even more so in another 2,000 years time, and He does not give Himself more to one than another – the Gift of being healed spiritually is the same for all. But we, alive today, do not have to wait long to see Christ at work in a way undreamed of – just a few years in the scheme of things, each according to their time.

It is my opinion that there is a much deeper and more God-like meaning to Christ's life and death than the traditionalist point of view incorporates. Concerning the example stated by Peter to the early Christians, I believe that he referred simply to a previous wicked generation who had been undergoing an age-long pruning – in the type of place that Christ referred to in His teaching about the rich man who felt in agony as if in fire ("aeonial" being a suitable adjective for this "fire") - another piece of Scripture that can be taken as Christ spoke it, and which does not need a complex type of interpretation to make it "fit".

But that is just my opinion and I realise it is not the opinion of the regulars on this forum and I apologise in advance. The Bible reflects, for the person reading it, whatever is in their mind - and anyone, of any persuasion, will always find the reflection they are looking for. That is my opinion in my limited experience.

Peace in His Spirit

[DavidFord]

posted a link to an article about it

Thanks.

https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm
To conclude therefore: when in I Peter 3:19 we read that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, we should not read into it dead people living in a prison, without resurrection, and Jesus going to them to preach the good news. What the Word of God is speaking in I Peter 3:19 is not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison, in the Tartarus, bound in everlasting chains under darkness. Why? Because of what they did in the times of Noah, leaving their own habitation, giving themselves over to fornication and going after "strange flesh", after the daughters of men.

"we should not read into it dead people living in a prison.... not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison"

Do you think some angels have been:  killed?  rendered dead?
Do you think angels can accept "the gospel"?

1 Peter 4:5-6 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204%3A5-7&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm
2097 [e]
euēngelisthē
εὐηγγελίσθη  ,
the gospel was proclaimed

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
even

3498 [e]
nekrois
νεκροῖς
to [the] dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A18-25&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah....

[DavidFord]

That's a great link! ( https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm ) - Makes a lot of sense

From the link:  "we should not read into it dead people living in a prison.... not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison"
Do you think some angels have been:  killed?  rendered dead?
Do you think angels can accept "the gospel"?

1 Peter 4:5-6 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204%3A5-7&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm
2097 [e]
euēngelisthē
εὐηγγελίσθη  ,
the gospel was proclaimed

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
even

3498 [e]
nekrois
νεκροῖς
to [the] dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A18-25&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah....

[GodIsLove]

posted a link to an article about it

Thanks.

https://www.jba.gr/spirits-in-prison.htm
To conclude therefore: when in I Peter 3:19 we read that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, we should not read into it dead people living in a prison, without resurrection, and Jesus going to them to preach the good news. What the Word of God is speaking in I Peter 3:19 is not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison, in the Tartarus, bound in everlasting chains under darkness. Why? Because of what they did in the times of Noah, leaving their own habitation, giving themselves over to fornication and going after "strange flesh", after the daughters of men.

"we should not read into it dead people living in a prison.... not about dead people but about spirits, angelic beings that are in a prison"

Do you think some angels have been:  killed?  rendered dead?
Do you think angels can accept "the gospel"?

1 Peter 4:5-6 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204%3A5-7&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm
2097 [e]
euēngelisthē
εὐηγγελίσθη  ,
the gospel was proclaimed

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
even

3498 [e]
nekrois
νεκροῖς
to [the] dead

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A18-25&version=NIV;MOUNCE;NKJV;HCSB
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah....

I posted the link a while back as a possible explanation for the passage, your explanation may be true as well, some of these things are hard to discern. As of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint to what you believe on this issue.

[DavidFord]

I posted the link a while back as a possible explanation for the passage, your explanation may be true as well, some of these things are hard to discern. As of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint to what you believe on this issue.

The writer of 1 Peter was familiar with the word "angel," as he used it twice:
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
angelos
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201%3A12&version=NIV;MOUNCE
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
angelos
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203%3A22&version=NIV;MOUNCE

Searching the NIV for mentions of the letter sequence "spirit" in 1 Peter yields the 10 passages below.  Of the 10 passages, how many appear to you to contain a reference to:
angels (whether fallen or not-fallen)?
a human spirit?

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NIV&quicksearch=spirit&begin=67&end=67
1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
1 Peter 1:11
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
1 Peter 2:2
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:4
Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
1 Peter 4:14
If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

[lastpost]

It appears that early Christians closest to the time of Christ on Earth not only believed in Universal Salvation but almost all of them believed that Christ preached His Gospel to the so-named dead...


Extracted from:

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church
During Its First Five Hundred Years

With Authorities and Extracts
By J.W. HANSON, D.D.

V.
Two Kindred Topics.
Gospel Preached to the Dead.

The early Christian church almost, if not quite, universally believed that Christ made proclamation of the Gospel to the dead in Hades. Says Huidekoper: "In the Second and Third Centuries every branch and division of Christians believed that Christ preached to the departed."1 Dietelmaier declares2 this doctrine was believed by all Christians. Of course, if souls were placed where their doom was irretrievable salvation would not be offered to them; whence it follows that the early Christians believed in post-mortem probation. Allin says that "some writers teach that the apostles also preached in Hades. Some say that the Blessed Virgin did the same. Some even say that Simeon went before Christ to Hades." All these testimonies go to show that the earliest of the fathers did not regard the grave as the dead-line which the love of God could not cross, but that the door of mercy is open hereafter as here. "The platonic doctrine of a separate state, where the spirits of the departed are purified, and on which the later doctrine of purgatory was founded, was approved by all the expositors of Christianity who were of the Alexandrian school, as was the custom of performing religious services at the tombs of the dead. Nor was there much difference between them and Tertullian in these particulars."

In the early ages of the church great stress was laid on I Pet. iii. 19: "He (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison." That this doctrine was prevalent as late as Augustine's day is evident from the fact that the doctrine is anathemitised in his list of heresies--number 79. And even as late as the Ninth Century it was condemned by Pope Boniface VI. It was believed that our Lord not only proclaimed the Gospel to all the dead but that he liberated them all. How could it be possible for a Christian to entertain the thought that all the wicked who died before the advent of our Lord were released from bondage, and that any who died after his advent would suffer endless woe? Eusebius says: "Christ, caring for the salvation of all opened a way of return to life for the dead bound in the chains of death." Athanasius: "The devil cast out of Hades, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Savior."3 Origen on I Kings, xxviii:32: "Jesus descended into Hades, and the prophets before him, and they proclaimed beforehand the coming of Christ." Didymus observes "In the liberation of all no one remains a captive; at the time of the Lord's passion he alone (Satan) was injured, who lost all the captives he was keeping." Cyril of Alexandria: "And wandering down even to Hades he has emptied the dark, secret, invisible treasures." Gregory of Nazianzus:4 "Until Christ loosed by his blood all who groaned under Tartarian chains." Jerome on Jonah ii: 6: "Our Lord was shut up in æonian bars in order that he might set free all who had been shut up."

Such passages might be multiplied, demonstrating that the early church regarded the conquest by Christ of the departed as universal. He set free from bonds all the dead in Hades. If the primitive Christians believed that all the wicked of all the æons preceding the death of Christ were released, how can we suppose them to have regarded the wicked subsequent to his death as destined to suffer interminable torments? Clement of Alexandria is explicit in declaring that the Gospel was preached to all, both Jews and Gentiles, in Hades;--that "the sole cause of the Lord's descent to the underworld was to preach the gospel." (Strom. VI.) Origen says: "Not only while Jesus was in the body did he win over not a few only, but when he became a soul, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those souls (in Hades) which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were fit for it."

1 An excellent resume of the opinions of the fathers on Christ's descent into Hades, and preaching the gospel to the dead, is Huidekoper's "The Belief of the First Three Centuries Concerning Christ's Mission to the Underworld;" also Huidekoper's "Indirect Testimony to the Gospels;" also Dean Plumptre's "Spirits in Prison." London: 1884.

2 Historia Dogmatis do Descensu Christi ad Inferos. J. A. Dietelmaier.

3 De Passione et Cruce Domin. Migne, XXVIII, 186-240.

4 Carm. XXXV, v. 9[/size]

[trettep]

Where you see the word "pneuma" in the Greek to be translated as "spirit" then you should think of this was the mental part of you.  It is the 'being' in someone.

in other words, right down everything that makes you - YOU except the physical stuff.  You will have written down the attributes that comprise your 'being' or spirit.

Where you see the word soul usually translated from 'psuche' in Greek then think of this as the exhibition of that spirit.  In other words the operative spirit.