every knee will bow and every tongue confess... to the glory of God the Father.

[DavidFord]

Does anyone here disagree with what's below?

In my opinion, Peter was either told this by the arisen Christ or else he received this as a message directly from the Spirit as actual words, either heard externally or internally, in that he could be so specific.

I see this, and again this is my opinion of course: The Spirit of Christ - the Life in His Body of flesh – left the deceased Body at physical death directly from the Cross, and continued His Mission to save the souls who once were in bodies of flesh themselves. As I see it, this is such a gigantic happening that Christendom would do well for its components to seek its deeper meaning.

I personally interpret life and death differently to the more literal method, in that each person has their reckoning upon their individual physical death, it is their "day of judgement", and they are "judged according to their works", so to speak, not according to a metaphysical belief they held in their minds – regardless of what they call it. In my opinion, this means, essentially, that a being is affected by his or her life on earth and how it has lived in accordance with the Way laid down by Christ – every single moment affects spiritual health. It is that simple, it is not necessary for any convoluted mental theories – I believe that God makes it plain and simple – through Christ.

Personally, I do not see any reason to alter what Peter has stated and turn "spirits" into "angels" in order to make Peter's statements fit in with a certain literalistic belief. Peter was quite capable of stating the word "angels" if that was what he meant. In fact, Peter uses the term "angels" (ἀγγέλων) in 1 Peter 3:22 (and doesn't call them "spirits" i.e. πνεύμασιν – pneumasin).

I realise these could be difficult passages to make sense of for those who do not believe in an instant transition (i.e we do not all "sleep"), but to me I can accept Peter's words as they appear on parchment, that is, they are referring to the wicked generation of Noah's time whose behaviour prepared them for an aeon in an unpleasant "place", to say the least.

And what is judged? A belief? Personally I think not - Peter gives us practical examples of the type of behaviour that caused a wicked generation to end up as spirits in prison, although referring to current behaviour...

"...lasciviousnesses, lustful desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries..."

....love for Christ steers them away from sinful living rather than the fear of God....

What a Gift from the Giver of all-Life in the Form of His Son through His birth, life and death – and of course His reappearance three days after death in accordance with the Scriptures, which firmly hammers home the fact that physical death is not the ultimate end – indeed, Christ "brought life and immortality to light" in a previously unimaginable way. What sheer and utter Divine humility and brilliance!

Christ is simple – He is for everybody, He is their Saviour, they do not even have to be able to read or write, they can be young or old – He reaches them today and He will reach them even more so in another 2,000 years time, and He does not give Himself more to one than another – the Gift of being healed spiritually is the same for all. But we, alive today, do not have to wait long to see Christ at work in a way undreamed of – just a few years in the scheme of things, each according to their time.

It is my opinion that there is a much deeper and more God-like meaning to Christ's life and death than the traditionalist point of view incorporates. Concerning the example stated by Peter to the early Christians, I believe that he referred simply to a previous wicked generation who had been undergoing an age-long pruning – in the type of place that Christ referred to in His teaching about the rich man who felt in agony as if in fire ("aeonial" being a suitable adjective for this "fire") - another piece of Scripture that can be taken as Christ spoke it, and which does not need a complex type of interpretation to make it "fit".

But that is just my opinion and I realise it is not the opinion of the regulars on this forum and I apologise in advance. The Bible reflects, for the person reading it, whatever is in their mind - and anyone, of any persuasion, will always find the reflection they are looking for. That is my opinion in my limited experience.

[GodIsLove]

Does anyone here disagree with what's below?

In my opinion, Peter was either told this by the arisen Christ or else he received this as a message directly from the Spirit as actual words, either heard externally or internally, in that he could be so specific.

I see this, and again this is my opinion of course: The Spirit of Christ - the Life in His Body of flesh – left the deceased Body at physical death directly from the Cross, and continued His Mission to save the souls who once were in bodies of flesh themselves. As I see it, this is such a gigantic happening that Christendom would do well for its components to seek its deeper meaning.

I personally interpret life and death differently to the more literal method, in that each person has their reckoning upon their individual physical death, it is their "day of judgement", and they are "judged according to their works", so to speak, not according to a metaphysical belief they held in their minds – regardless of what they call it. In my opinion, this means, essentially, that a being is affected by his or her life on earth and how it has lived in accordance with the Way laid down by Christ – every single moment affects spiritual health. It is that simple, it is not necessary for any convoluted mental theories – I believe that God makes it plain and simple – through Christ.

Personally, I do not see any reason to alter what Peter has stated and turn "spirits" into "angels" in order to make Peter's statements fit in with a certain literalistic belief. Peter was quite capable of stating the word "angels" if that was what he meant. In fact, Peter uses the term "angels" (ἀγγέλων) in 1 Peter 3:22 (and doesn't call them "spirits" i.e. πνεύμασιν – pneumasin).

I realise these could be difficult passages to make sense of for those who do not believe in an instant transition (i.e we do not all "sleep"), but to me I can accept Peter's words as they appear on parchment, that is, they are referring to the wicked generation of Noah's time whose behaviour prepared them for an aeon in an unpleasant "place", to say the least.

And what is judged? A belief? Personally I think not - Peter gives us practical examples of the type of behaviour that caused a wicked generation to end up as spirits in prison, although referring to current behaviour...

"...lasciviousnesses, lustful desires, excesses of wines, revellings, drinking-bouts, and unlawful idolatries..."

....love for Christ steers them away from sinful living rather than the fear of God....

What a Gift from the Giver of all-Life in the Form of His Son through His birth, life and death – and of course His reappearance three days after death in accordance with the Scriptures, which firmly hammers home the fact that physical death is not the ultimate end – indeed, Christ "brought life and immortality to light" in a previously unimaginable way. What sheer and utter Divine humility and brilliance!

Christ is simple – He is for everybody, He is their Saviour, they do not even have to be able to read or write, they can be young or old – He reaches them today and He will reach them even more so in another 2,000 years time, and He does not give Himself more to one than another – the Gift of being healed spiritually is the same for all. But we, alive today, do not have to wait long to see Christ at work in a way undreamed of – just a few years in the scheme of things, each according to their time.

It is my opinion that there is a much deeper and more God-like meaning to Christ's life and death than the traditionalist point of view incorporates. Concerning the example stated by Peter to the early Christians, I believe that he referred simply to a previous wicked generation who had been undergoing an age-long pruning – in the type of place that Christ referred to in His teaching about the rich man who felt in agony as if in fire ("aeonial" being a suitable adjective for this "fire") - another piece of Scripture that can be taken as Christ spoke it, and which does not need a complex type of interpretation to make it "fit".

But that is just my opinion and I realise it is not the opinion of the regulars on this forum and I apologise in advance. The Bible reflects, for the person reading it, whatever is in their mind - and anyone, of any persuasion, will always find the reflection they are looking for. That is my opinion in my limited experience.

As of right now in my walk I agree with these statements; however I know some others don't necessarily align with all of it, for example some believe in soul sleep and the resurrection of the dead on Earth. I think within the parameters of scripture, Christianity and universal salvation, many differ somewhat on the details.

[DavidFord]

As of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint

Do you think some angels were shut up in:  Tartarus?  "the deeps"?  "infernal regions"? "the lowest depths"?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
4 And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*, 5 And he did not spare The First World but he preserved Noah, the eighth man, a Preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood over the world of the wicked, 6 And when he burned the cities of Sadom and Amorah and condemned them in an overthrow, when he set an example to the wicked who were to come,

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

[GodIsLove]

As of now I'm actually shifting my viewpoint

Do you think some angels were shut up in:  Tartarus?  "the deeps"?  "infernal regions"? "the lowest depths"?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
4 And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*, 5 And he did not spare The First World but he preserved Noah, the eighth man, a Preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood over the world of the wicked, 6 And when he burned the cities of Sadom and Amorah and condemned them in an overthrow, when he set an example to the wicked who were to come,

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

To answer your question: no idea!

To use Eaglesway's often used phrase, I believe we are "seeing through the glass darkly" on these matters.

Edit: I believe Tartus to be a Greek concept similar to the word "Hades" and therefore isn't in my belief system but was a word used to portray a concept in the ancient times that the readers would understand.

[DavidFord]

To use Eaglesway's often used phrase, I believe we are 'seeing through the glass darkly' on these matters"

Are you having 2-way conversations with God-- and if so, have you asked God about these matters?  Examples of such 2-way conversations appear in:
Mark Holloway, _The Freedom Diaries:  God Speaks Back_ (2013), 287pp.
Mark Holloway, _Cry the Wounded Land: Conversations with God about Maori,
Pakeha and the Land_ (2017), 298pp.
David Manuel, _Once Upon a Prayer: How to Hear God in Your Heart_ (2004), 111pp.
Brad Jersak and Eden Jersak, _Rivers from Eden: 40 Days of Intimate
Conversation with God_ (2004), 175pp.

I believe Tartus to be a Greek concept similar to the word "Hades" and therefore isn't in my belief system but was a word used to portray a concept in the ancient times that the readers would understand.

Do you think Tartarus was, or wasn't, in the original rendition of 2 Peter?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,
2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment

[GodIsLove]

To use Eaglesway's often used phrase, I believe we are 'seeing through the glass darkly' on these matters"

Are you having 2-way conversations with God-- and if so, have you asked God about these matters?  Examples of such 2-way conversations appear in:
Mark Holloway, _The Freedom Diaries:  God Speaks Back_ (2013), 287pp.
Mark Holloway, _Cry the Wounded Land: Conversations with God about Maori,
Pakeha and the Land_ (2017), 298pp.
David Manuel, _Once Upon a Prayer: How to Hear God in Your Heart_ (2004), 111pp.
Brad Jersak and Eden Jersak, _Rivers from Eden: 40 Days of Intimate
Conversation with God_ (2004), 175pp.

I believe Tartus to be a Greek concept similar to the word "Hades" and therefore isn't in my belief system but was a word used to portray a concept in the ancient times that the readers would understand.

Do you think Tartarus was, or wasn't, in the original rendition of 2 Peter?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,
2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment

I haven't looked into your claims of the Aramaic origins to the scriptures, I don't doubt it could be true but it's not on the forefront for me right now, maybe in the future...so in that case I'll say I thought it was in the original Greek and leave it at that.

As far as the two way conversation I'll look into the links but for now yes I feel that God guides me and I pray to him on basically all matters; asking, seeking, thanking, etc. it's all an indicidual process and I don't claim superiority or inferiority to others, just unique journeys we are all on to get back to the source of all, God, through Jesus the Christ and his example and guidance. I don't think we are given all the answers at once; it's an unfolding as we are prepared for the next step in growing.

[lastpost]

It appears that early Christians closest to the time of Christ on Earth not only believed in Universal Salvation but almost all of them believed that Christ preached His Gospel to the so-named dead...


Extracted from:

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church
During Its First Five Hundred Years

With Authorities and Extracts
By J.W. HANSON, D.D.

V.
Two Kindred Topics.
Gospel Preached to the Dead.

The early Christian church almost, if not quite, universally believed that Christ made proclamation of the Gospel to the dead in Hades. Says Huidekoper: "In the Second and Third Centuries every branch and division of Christians believed that Christ preached to the departed."1 Dietelmaier declares2 this doctrine was believed by all Christians. Of course, if souls were placed where their doom was irretrievable salvation would not be offered to them; whence it follows that the early Christians believed in post-mortem probation. Allin says that "some writers teach that the apostles also preached in Hades. Some say that the Blessed Virgin did the same. Some even say that Simeon went before Christ to Hades." All these testimonies go to show that the earliest of the fathers did not regard the grave as the dead-line which the love of God could not cross, but that the door of mercy is open hereafter as here. "The platonic doctrine of a separate state, where the spirits of the departed are purified, and on which the later doctrine of purgatory was founded, was approved by all the expositors of Christianity who were of the Alexandrian school, as was the custom of performing religious services at the tombs of the dead. Nor was there much difference between them and Tertullian in these particulars."

In the early ages of the church great stress was laid on I Pet. iii. 19: "He (Christ) went and preached unto the spirits in prison." That this doctrine was prevalent as late as Augustine's day is evident from the fact that the doctrine is anathemitised in his list of heresies--number 79. And even as late as the Ninth Century it was condemned by Pope Boniface VI. It was believed that our Lord not only proclaimed the Gospel to all the dead but that he liberated them all. How could it be possible for a Christian to entertain the thought that all the wicked who died before the advent of our Lord were released from bondage, and that any who died after his advent would suffer endless woe? Eusebius says: "Christ, caring for the salvation of all opened a way of return to life for the dead bound in the chains of death." Athanasius: "The devil cast out of Hades, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Savior."3 Origen on I Kings, xxviii:32: "Jesus descended into Hades, and the prophets before him, and they proclaimed beforehand the coming of Christ." Didymus observes "In the liberation of all no one remains a captive; at the time of the Lord's passion he alone (Satan) was injured, who lost all the captives he was keeping." Cyril of Alexandria: "And wandering down even to Hades he has emptied the dark, secret, invisible treasures." Gregory of Nazianzus:4 "Until Christ loosed by his blood all who groaned under Tartarian chains." Jerome on Jonah ii: 6: "Our Lord was shut up in æonian bars in order that he might set free all who had been shut up."

Such passages might be multiplied, demonstrating that the early church regarded the conquest by Christ of the departed as universal. He set free from bonds all the dead in Hades. If the primitive Christians believed that all the wicked of all the æons preceding the death of Christ were released, how can we suppose them to have regarded the wicked subsequent to his death as destined to suffer interminable torments? Clement of Alexandria is explicit in declaring that the Gospel was preached to all, both Jews and Gentiles, in Hades;--that "the sole cause of the Lord's descent to the underworld was to preach the gospel." (Strom. VI.) Origen says: "Not only while Jesus was in the body did he win over not a few only, but when he became a soul, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those souls (in Hades) which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were fit for it."

1 An excellent resume of the opinions of the fathers on Christ's descent into Hades, and preaching the gospel to the dead, is Huidekoper's "The Belief of the First Three Centuries Concerning Christ's Mission to the Underworld;" also Huidekoper's "Indirect Testimony to the Gospels;" also Dean Plumptre's "Spirits in Prison." London: 1884.

2 Historia Dogmatis do Descensu Christi ad Inferos. J. A. Dietelmaier.

3 De Passione et Cruce Domin. Migne, XXVIII, 186-240.

4 Carm. XXXV, v. 9

TWIMC, at the risk of being over pedantic, on Tentmaker's page...

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html#61

...I noticed that the superscript reference number 4 (i.e. see above quote 2nd para: "Gregory of Nazianzus:⁴)" referencing footnote "4 Carm. XXXV, v. 9" is missing, as shown here...

https://archive.org/stream/universalismprev00hans#page/62

...on archive.org on the third line at the top of page 63 after "Gregory of Nazianzus".


Personally I feel this is important because not only is Universal Restoration believed as truth by the early church fathers - so nearly associated with the generations closest to Christ and His disciples - but almost all of them believed that Christ left His body at the Cross to preach His Gospel to the ears of the "dead" and the "doctrine was prevalent as late as Augustine's day" until he attacked it as a heresy.

Is it logical for so many early Christians to be absolutely correct about Universal Salvation and yet almost all of them to be absolutely wrong about Christ preaching His Gospel of Love to the dead who were killed at the time of Noah?

Methinks not. There was something prevalent amongst the earliest Christians – by the power, comfort and guidance of the Holy Spirit - that assured them of the certainty of that which Origen spoke:

"Not only while Jesus was in the body did he win over not a few only, but when he became a soul, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those souls (in Hades) which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were fit for it."

[marie glen]

Of course (imo :laughing7: ) they could be absolutely right about something and wrong about something else. Why not? They were human and right in the New Testament letters it says the spirit of iniquity was already at work, and how they had been of them, the believers, but had not remained with them.

Sometimes I think the  w h o l e  ET Church stems directly from those notorious Gnostics. I believe the Gnostics mixed Jesus with previous 'esoteric' pagan beliefs the world over.. Gnosticism has been a loose collection. One of those very first lies delivered to Eve, was .."surely you won't die..?" It is deeep in the psyche of man. (Imo anyway. :smile: )

If I thought the Bible itself supports inherent immortality of mortals, then I would believe it.

But I believe two things about the verse about preaching in hades/prison, it was to angels, which elsewhere it refers to their being in chains of Tartarus.. (but being Hebrew Peter may have merely written deepest darkness originally).. But I lean toward believing He went via the Spirit whilecthe ark was being prepared and preached to those scoffers outside the ark..

"The soul that sins shall die".. I've never been able to accept the idea that death is another form of living. "There is only One who is immortal".

But disagreeing is okay! :gsmile:
In the scheme of things, I'm likely in the minority on this..

[GodIsLove]

HARROWING OF HELL" IN CANON AND APOCRYPHA

One of the primary beliefs of the early Christians was that Jesus descended into Sheol/Hades in order to preach to the dead and rescue all of those, as it clearly says in I Peter 3:20, "who in former times did not obey." This terminology is familiar to anyone who has recited the Apostle's Creed which states that Jesus descended to Hell after his death, before his resurrection. Known as the "Harrowing of Hell," this is a major theme in Universalism because it underscores the early belief that judgment at the end of life is not final and that all souls can be saved after death. Interestingly, in the early Church there were not only prayers for the dead, but St. Paul notes there were also baptisms for the dead (I Cor 15: 29).

In later times, the church attempted to reinterpret the text to narrow the categories of people saved from Hell to the Jewish prophets and the righteous pagans. Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan take this approach in their latest book, The Last Week. (Curiously, they omit the key verse "those who in former times did not obey.") However, in his earlier book, The Cross That Spoke, John Dominic Crossan is more favorable to the Universalist view. For example, he relates a story from the non-canonical Gospel of Peter in which two angels come down from Heaven to get Jesus out of the tomb on Easter morning. As they are carrying him out and are about to ascend to Heaven, a voice from Heaven asks them, "Hast thou preached to them that sleep?" The wooden cross that is somehow following them out of the tomb speaks and says, "Yes!" In discussing Jesus' decent into Hell, Crossan also sites another classic Universalist text, I Peter 4:6 which says, "For this is why the Gospel was preached even to the dead, that though they were judged in flesh like men they might live in the spirit like God." He also notes that in Colossians 2:15, Jesus, "disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them," and in Ephesians 4:8-9:

Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high, he made captivity itself a captive; he gave gifts to his people." (When it says, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all heavens, so that he might fill all things.")

Understanding the role of the "Harrowing of Hell" has been expanded by recent archeological findings and modern Biblical scholarship. Among the discoveries over the past 100 years is the Apocalypse of Peter, written about 135 C.E. (not to be confused with the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter discovered at Nag Hammadi in 1947). For a time, it was considered for inclusion into the New Testament instead of the Revelation to John. It is referred to in the Muratorian Canon of the early Church, as well as in the writings of St. Clement of Alexandria. (It should be noted that the Universalist passage from the Apocalypse of Peter is found in the Ethiopian text but is not part of the fragment text found at Akhmim, Egypt.) In the Ethiopic copy, Peter asks Jesus to have pity on the people in Hell, and Jesus says they will eventually all be saved. Later, Peter (who is writing to Clement) says to keep that knowledge a secret so that foolish men may not see it. This same theme is repeated in the Second Book of the Sibyline Oracles in which the saved behold the sinners in Hell and ask that mercy be shown them. Here, the sinners are saved by the prayers of the righteous.

Another 2nd Century work, The Epistle to the Apostles, also states that our prayers for the dead can affect their forgiveness by God. The 2nd Century Odes of Solomon, which was discovered in the early 20th Century, was for a time considered to be Jewish, then Gnostic, and more recently, early Christian. Its theme is that Jesus saves the dead when they come to him in Hell and cry out, "Son of God, have pity on us!" In the 4th/6th Century Syriac Book of the Cave of Treasures, Jesus "preached the resurrection to those who were lying in the dust" and "pardoned those who had sinned against the Law." In the Gospel of Nicodemus (a.k.a. Acts of Pilate), a 4th /5th Century apocryphal gospel, Jesus saves everyone in the Greek version but rescues only the righteous pre-Christians in the Latin translation. In What is Gnosticism?, Karen King identifies the Nag Hammadi Gospel of Truth as teaching Universal Salvation; she states that The Apocryphon of John (a.k.a. The Secret Book of John) declares all will be saved except apostates. In the Coptic Book of the Resurrection, all but Satan and his ministers are pardoned.

Interestingly, belief in the "Harrowing of Hell" has had some validation by modern day near-death experiencers (people who have been resuscitated following a period of clinical death). While most near-death experiencers report a "heavenly" experience of Light and overwhelming love, many of those whose experience begins in "hellish" turmoil and darkness say that their descent was reversed when they called out to God or Jesus.

From: https://christianuniversalist.org/resources/articles/salvation-conspiracy/

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch:

Very interesting.. Interesting discussion! conscious, unconscious, semi conscious.. I have the crazy idea no humans will go to lake of fire.. As I think that surely by end of Judgment / review of all history? and having experienced either waking from their grave or otherwise, all will have repented and been reconciled with God, for after all that? Who’s not going to “believe”?! And thus have their name be in the Book of Life. And it is the last verse - Bk of Life - of the chapter and scene. At which time also hell/Sheol/Hades is cast into the LOF, the 2nd death.

I have to add, maybe because I’m compulsive something or other, :laughing7: idk, but in the previous chapter (19) the “beast and false prophet” cast to the LOF at Jesus’ return, I do not believe are humans but a false prophet/teacher/teaching which brought the “strong delusion” which has caused the “falling away” of Western Civilization, once called Christendom, from the faith. (And thus now, Jude 14, “people make fun of God” Contemporary English Version). And the beast being the big one, an institution, of 13:1-10, not the office(?) of 13:11-18, ‘active’ at the time of Jesus’ return.
:Peace2: :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

I think the lake of fire is the presence of Jesus, the body of Christ and saints from all the former ages

"Know you not you will judge the world"

"Know you not you will judge angels"

The fire is in His eyes

"And His eyes were as flames of fire"

And His presence

"His face was like the sun shining in its strength"

And His word

"His word is like a fire and a hammer that breaks the rocks" Jer 23:29

And His people

9 "As I looked,

"thrones were set in place,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
    the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
    and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
    coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
    ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
    and the books were opened.

So I think when Jesus is speaking to people,

"Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and His angels"

He is speaking of the trial of coming before the judgment seat of Christ, where those who remain adversaries will be "disarmed" by the cross of Jesus CHrist which is the revelation of His love,

"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" Col 2:15

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

"What no eye has seen,

what no ear has heard,

and what no human mind has conceived" —

the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit."


IMO,  if Jesus says there will be aionan fire, it will be so. What the nature of that fire is, is what makes it abhorent. Flames burning flesh forever, or even for 1000 years- Jesus never says that. The nature of the fire is His love and truth.

He only says there will be fire,

"Our God is a consuming fire"...Light is fire to darkness. I think the lake of fire is the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Prophetic word, the mirror into which a person peers and will not forget the image they see there, bringing truth into the inner man, into the heart of hearts.

15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The fire consumes the veil- the light of His presence capturing the heart- the testimony of the cross bringing repentance and love. Light shining out of darkness.

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.....For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." 2 Cor 4

"We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." 2 Peter 1:19

"I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."Rev 19:20

:2c: