SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

PAUL

The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.

Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul's will "free."

But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that "the sin that dwelt within him" (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul's will in his war with his sinful nature.

[marie glen]

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

The best question (imo) this article points out is - Where did the Jews get their myths about a 'hell'? It wasn't in their Book! But by time the days of Jesus.. there the myth was.. (in their other writings, etc.) So if not from the Old Testament, where did they get it? I remember learning in school how (it seemed to me) at one time Hebrew scholars were very contemporary with Greek and Roman scholars..

Very interesting article.

[marie glen]

I've always wondered too why the earliest myths seem to place the total 'afterlife' under the earth or within the earth.. But it seems now natural as - what other places did the earliest folks have? (To think about.) And so to this day.. the place of mythical 'hell' is thought to be under or within the earth. Which as they think the LOF is hell (even though it/ the grave, is thrown into the LOF) no where does it say there is a lake of torment within the earth.. Very crafty actually.. some must have been quite excited when science determined there's fire inside the planet!

In Babylon, as we know they worshiped the 'moving stars' in the night sky and sun and moon, which is why they built Babel Tower to reach the stars in the heavens..

It seems not hard to see an eventual blending of the Egyptian and the Babylonian favorite ideas..

And how Yhvh called Abraham out of all that...

Also seems to be a link between the "the 'gods' will get you" if you misbehave and how some view the Father in heaven to this day..

[rodgertutt]

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm

Kenneth Larsen and James Coram
"Everlasting destruction" would mean that they cease to exist. However, that terminology wasn't used by any of the prophets. I didn't make up universal reconciliation. It has strong Bible support.

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20and many other texts that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire.

[rodgertutt]

Questions Without Answers

The questions were written by A. C. Thomas and appeared in a book by E. H. Lake, entitled "The Key to Truth".
Now the Questions:
1.   As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)
2.   If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?
3.   Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?
4.   As God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?
5.   If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)
6.   As "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)
7.   As "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)
8.   As we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)
9.   Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God HAD been overcome by evil?
10.   If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?
11.   Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
12.   As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)
13.   Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
14.   If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?
15.   Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)
16.   If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?
17.   Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)
18.   Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?
19.   If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?
20.   If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)
21.   As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)
22.   Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?
23.   Can that be just which is not merciful?
24.   Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?
25.   Can that be merciful which is not just?
26.   Does divine justice demand the infliction of pain from which mercy recoils?
27.   Does divine mercy require any thing that justice refuses to grant?
28.   If the demands of divine justice are opposed to the requirements of mercy, is not God divided against Himself?
29.   If the requirements of mercy are opposed to the demands of the justice of God, can His kingdom stand? -- (Mark 3:24)
30.   If the justice and mercy of God are any way opposed, do they "keep the unity of the spirit in the bonds of peace?'
31.   If justice and mercy are opposed to their requirements can Deity be a just God and a Savior? -- (Isaiah 14:21)
32.   If "a God all mercy is a God unjust," would not a God all justice be a God unmerciful?
33.   Is there any such thing in God as unjust mercy, or unmerciful justice?
34.   Is there any such thing in God as just cruelty, or merciful injustice?
35.   If you had sufficient power would you not deliver all men from sin?
36.   Are you more merciful than the God Who made you?
37.   'Can a woman forget her sucking child?'
38.   Is the Creator of human sympathy less benevolent than the creature?
39.   If God WOULD save all men, but CANNOT, is He infinite in power?
40.   If God CAN save all men, but WILL NOT, is He infinite in goodness?
41.   Does God DESIRE the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:3-4)
42.   As God is righteous, must not the desire for universal salvation be a RIGHTEOUS desire?
43.   Is it true, that "the desire of the righteous shall be granted?" -- (Prov. 10:24)
44.   Did God design universal salvation when He created man?
45.   Will God carry His original design into execution?
46.   Can finite man frustrate the purposes of the Almighty?
47.   Is every individual under obligation to be thankful for his existence?
48.   Will this obligation eternally continue?
49.   Can any one be thankful for that which, on the whole, is not a blessing?
50.   If any one be rendered endlessly miserable, will he be still under obligation to thank God for existence?
51.   Would endless misery benefit the Almighty, as the INFLICTOR?
52.   Would endless misery benefit the saints, as SPECTATORS?
53.   Would endless misery benefit the sinner, as the SUFFERER?
54.   If endless punishment be the "wages of sin," could the sinner ever receive payment in full? (Rom. 6:23)
55.   As man is a finite being, can he commit an infinite sin?
56.   If man cannot commit an infinite sin, can he deserve endless punishment?
57.   If one sin be infinite, can a million be any more?
58.   If ONE sin be NOT infinite, can a million of sins amount to an infinite sin?
59.   If sin be infinite, can one sin be greater than the other?
60.   If sin be infinite, can it be true that, "where sin abounded grace did MUCH MORE abound?" --(Rom. 5:20)
61.   If sin be infinite, can it ever be finished or brought to an end?
62.   If ONE sin deserves an eternity of punishment, how much punishment will TEN sins deserve?
63.   Do you ardently DESIRE the salvation of all men?
64.   Is it true that God "openeth his hand and satisfieth the desire of every living thing?" -- (Ps. 145:16)
65.   Do you fervently PRAY for the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:1)
66.   Do you pray in FAITH, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)
67.   Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)
68.   Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
69.   If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
70.   Can the pleasure of the Almighty be contrary to his determinate will?
71.   Would the infliction of endless misery afford pleasure to the Deity?
72.   Can God be glorified by that which gives Him no pleasure?
73.   As Jesus "tasted death for every man," can it be true that "the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands," if a part are never saved? (Heb. 2:9)
74.   If God "declares the end from the beginning," can the final destiny of mankind be contrary to His will?
75.   Can endless misery be brought about contrary to the GOOD PLEASURE of the Almighty?
76.   Can God WILL anything contrary to His knowledge?
77.   Did God know when He created man, that a part of His creatures would be endlessly miserable?
78.   If God, when He created, did not know the result of creation, is He infinite in knowledge?
79.   Power is the ability to do: is knowledge simply the ability to know?
80.   If God knew when He created man, that some would be eternally wretched, did He not will this to be their doom?
81.   If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4)
82.   If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we safely infer that a part might be saved?
83.   If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely infer that a part may be damned?
84.   If God made an endless hell before He created man, did He know there would be any use for it?
85.   If God knew there would be use for an endless hell, must He not have created some men for endless misery?
86.   If God made an endless hell, was it included in the works which He pronounced "very good?" -- (Gen. 1:31)
87.   If there be an endless hell, and it was not made before the creation of men, when was it made?
88.   If there be a personal devil, who made him?
89.   Can there be any such thing as sin in heaven?
90.   If there was sin in heaven, many not sin be committed there again?
91.   If an angel of light became a devil, was not Paul in error, when he said Satan is transformed into an angel of light? -- (2 Cor 11:14)
92.   As sin presupposes temptation of some sort, who tempted a holy angel to sin?
93.   If an angel could sin without a devil to tempt him, may we not sin without a devil to tempt us?
94.   If a holy angel was tempted to sin by surrounding evil, is heaven a holy place?
95.   If an angel was tempted by evil passions, could he have been holy?
96.   If an angel became a devil by sinning, was Adam's the original sin?
97.   If Adam became mortal (that is, subject to death,) by sinning, must he not have been created immortal?
98.   If Adam had been created immortal, could he ever have died?
99.   If Adam sinned without inheriting total depravity, why should inborn depravity be assigned as the cause of our sins?
100.   Would there be any more impropriety in imputing MY sins to Adam, than in imputing HIS sins to ME?
101.   If men are totally depraved by nature, must not children be so likewise?
102.   If children be totally depraved, is it true, that "of such is the kingdom of heaven?" -- (Mark 10:14)
103.   Men are to be washed from their sins. If they are totally depraved, what is there to wash?
104.   If evil men and seducers "wax worse and worse," (2 Tim. 3:13), can they be totally depraved at first?
105.   If human reason be "carnal and delusive," why did Jehovah say, "come now and let us REASON together?" -- (Isa. 1:18)
106.   If reason be delusive, why should some folks reason against the use of reason?
107.   Can an effect exist without a cause sufficiently powerful to produce it?
108.   If "we love God because he first loved us," is it true that we must first love HIM before He will love us?
109.   If "we love God because he first loved us," is it not plain that He loved US when we did not love HIM?
110.   If God loved US when we did not love HIM, is not our love to Him the EFFECT (and not the CAUSE) of His love to US?
111.   Was it consistent with divine justice, to love us, when we did not love Him?
112.   If God once loved us, will not that love eternally continue?
113.   If the love of God is the cause which produces love in man, can anger and wrath produce the same effect?
114.   Is it the revealed will of God that all men should be saved?
115.   Can God will all men to be saved, knowing that a part will be forever lost?
116.   If God has two wills, why is double-mindedness condemned in the Scriptures?
117.   If God has two wills, why does the Bible say, "He is of one mind?"
118.   If God has a secret will, how did you gain a knowledge of it?
119.   Can that be a secret which has been revealed?
120.   If God revealed His secret will to "the saints," why should they reveal it to "the wicked?"
121.   If God under any circumstances, wills the endless misery of a human soul, in what does He differ from Satan?
122.   Can Jesus Christ be the Savior of any more than He actually saves?
123.   Can Jesus be "the Savior of the world," (1 John 4:14), if the world is not saved by him?
124.   Is Christ, in any sense, the Savior of unbelievers?
125.   If Christ be in no sense the Savior of unbelievers, why are unbelievers called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior?
126.   If unbelievers are not called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior, what are they to believe?
127.   Must not the thing to be believed, be true before it is believed?
128.   Must not the thing to be believed continue to be true, whether it be believed or disbelieved?
129.   "What if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith, [or faithfulness] of God of none effect?" -- (Rom. 3:3)
130.   Is it true that "God hath concluded all in unbelief that he might have mercy on all?" -- (Rom 9:32)
131.   Can God be "especially the Savior of them who believe," unless He be actually the Savior of all? -- (1 Tim. 4:10)
132.   If belief and good works in this life, be essential to eternal salvation in the next, can infants be saved?
133.   Can the good actions of finite man merit an infinite reward?
134.   Can the evil actions of finite man merit infinite punishment?
135.   If men are saved by works, is salvation of grace?
136.   If one man is saved by grace, why should not all be saved in like manner?
137.   Is God a partial being?
138.   Can the faith of the Partialists be based in the wisdom that is "full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality?" -- (James 3:17)
139.   Can sufficient provision be made for the salvation of all men, if some men are never saved?
140.   Must not sufficient provision be sufficient to subdue the will of the creature?
141.   Is there any other way to determine the sufficiency of the means employed, than by the accomplishment of the end designed?
142.   Does not the law of God require all men to love him supremely, and their neighbors as themselves?
143.   Is it true, that "not one jot or tittle of this law shall pass till all be fulfilled?" -- (Matt. 5:18)
144.   Does not justice require of us the fulfilment of the law of God?
145.   Will not justice be eternally violated, if the law of God be not universally fulfilled?
146.   Can they fulfil the law of love who are rendered eternally miserable?
147.   Can justice require the obedience of the sinner, and at the same time require his eternal disobedience?
148.   If whoso "offereth praise glorifieth God," (Ps. 1:23), can He be glorified by those who have no cause to praise Him?
149.   If any one be rendered eternally miserable, can he have any cause to praise His Maker?
150.   Will God ever place some of his creatures in such a situation they cannot praise him?
151.   Do you believe that endless punishment would manifest the glory of God?
152.   Can you rejoice in the hope of the glory of God?
153.   Would not the salvation of half of mankind glorify God more than the salvation of one-fourth?
154.   Would not the salvation of nine-tenths of mankind glorify God more than the salvation of one-half?
155.   Can we give "glory to God in the highest," without believing in the salvation of all men?
156.   If "all have sinned, and (thus) come short of the glory of God," (Rom. 3:23), would eternal sinning mend the matter?
157.   Shall "every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father?" -- (Philippians 2:11)
158.   Is endless misery "good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people?"
159.   Could man be endlessly miserable without being endlessly a sinner?
160.   If sin exist eternally, can it be true that Christ was to finish the transgression, and to make and end of sin? -- (Dan. 9:34)
161.   As Jesus gave himself a ransom for all men, can he ever "see the travail of his soul and be satisfied," if endless misery be true?
162.   Do you hope that endless misery is true?
163.   Is "faith the substance (or foundation) of things hoped for?" -- (Heb. 11:1)
164.   If endless misery be not a thing hoped for, can it be a part of the Christian faith?
165.   Is it certain that one soul will be eternally lost?
166.   Is it certain that one soul will be saved?
167.   Is it certain that all will not be damned?
168.   Is it certain that all will not be saved?
169.   Can that be certain which is not decreed?
170.   If it be certain that one soul will be saved, must there not be a decree concerning the salvation of a definite number?
171.   If the number of the saved be definitely fixed, must not the number of the damned be equally definite?
172.   If there be no certainty in relation to the final destiny of man, is not salvation a work of chance?
173.   What better is chance than Atheism?
174.   If God knew, when he created, what the end of each soul would be, is not that end as certain as if it was decreed?
175.   Is not the merciful man always merciful to his beast?
176.   Will not the merciful God be always as merciful to His creatures, as the merciful man is to his beast?
177.   Is it true that the "tender mercies of the Lord are over all his works?" -- (Ps. 145:9)
178.   Is it true that the Almighty is without variableness, or the shadow of turning?
179.   Would there be any tender mercy in the infliction of endless misery?
180.   Are the tender mercies of the Lord like unto the tender mercies of the wicked which are cruel?
181.   If God is not the Father of sinners, why should sinners pray, saying, "Our Father, forgive us our trespasses?"
182.   "Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?" -- (Mal. 2:10)
183.   If God be the Father of all men, will He do less for His children than earthly parents would do for theirs?
184.   Is it true that God punishes us "for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness?" -- (Heb. 12:11)
185.   Would endless punishment be for our profit?
186.   Would endless punishment "yield the peaceable fruits of righteousness unto them who are exercised thereby?"
187.   Is there an afterward to eternity? -- (Heb. 7:14)
188.   Can any doctrine be too good to be true?
189.   Will God contend forever and be always wroth? -- (Isa. 62:16)
190.   Will the Lord cast off forever? -- (Lam. 3:31-33)
191.   Can he be a Christian who worships the Lord through fear of the devil?
192.   Can he be a Christian who affirms that if he believed in the salvation of all men, he would not worship God?
193.   Can he be a Christian who inquires, "if all men are to be saved, what use is there in being virtuous?"
194.   Some persons say, that if they did not believe in endless punishment, they would take their fill of sin. How much sin would it take to fill a Christian?
195.   If "the goodness of God leadeth to repentance," why should His eternal wrath be preached to sinners?
196.   If "the goodness of God leadeth to repentance," why should it not be supposed that repentance leadeth to the goodness of God?
197.   If "the goodness of God leadeth to repentance," are not the impenitent the objects of His goodness?
198.   Is not the goodness of God co-extensive and co-eternal with His wisdom and power?
199.   As the wisdom of God can never change to folly, nor His power to weakness, will His goodness ever change to hatred?
200.   Can Deity be universally and eternally good, if endless misery be true for a single soul?
201.   If all men deserve endless punishment, would it not be right for God to inflict it?
202.   "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
203.   If it would be right for God to punish all men eternally, would it not be wrong for Him hot to do it?
204.   As the infliction of endless misery would be returning evil for evil, would it be right for Deity to inflict it?
205.   If the return of evil for evil be right in Deity, would it not be equally right in man?
206.   As "fear hath torment," and true religion is happiness, can fear produce true religion?
207.   As "perfect love casteth out fear," will not fear cast out perfect love?
208.   Can fear imbue the soul with perfect love?
209.   Must not they who "believe and tremble," be possessed of the faith of devils?
210.   Does the belief of endless misery cause the believer to "rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory?" -- (1 Pet. 1:8)
211.   Can a belief of any thing short of universal salvation, fill the soul with "joy and peace?"
212.   Will not the devil and all his works be destroyed? -- (Heb. 2:14; 1 John 3:8)
213.   Will not death, the last enemy, be swallowed up in victory and destroyed? -- (Isa. 25:6-8; 1 Cor. 15:26-54)

[rosered]

 :gthumbsup:   
 
Blessings Bro  Rodger  ,  good post in looking for answers !    some are hard questions   for sure!  :friendstu:    :HeartThrob:

Rose

[rodgertutt]

DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larsen
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived pagan inherited ideas.

Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.

Oh my goodness righteous people perish!
Does that mean they go to be tormented forever?
Does that mean they don't get eternal life?
How are they spared from evil since they obviously perished?

Perish simply means to be destroyed, to die, to be lost. The actual Greek word is apollymi.
Guess what: Jesus came to save those who are apollymi.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost (apollymi - same word).

So Jesus will save those who perish. How does He do this? By destroying death! When death is finally destroyed, all will be resurrected, and all will be alive! Jesus is life!

[rodgertutt]

JOKING?

I guess God was joking and did not really mean it...

...when He said:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Shall not be in a state of being lost (apollumi), but shall have life during the ages which collectively come to an end. Heb. 9:26.

And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
They will lose it for the eons but will find it again when the eons collectively end Heb. 9:26

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Instead of being forgiven, they will suffer the consequences. But the consequences are age-during, not eternal.

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will restore all destroyed souls when death is abolished. 1 Cor. 15:20-28

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Believers have life pertaining to the ages which collectively come to an end. Christ rejecters will receive kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) Matt 25:46.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Both in terms of duration and intensity God will administer just the right amount of kolasis aionios to everyone who needs it. Matt. 25:46.

[eaglesway]

 :banana:

[rodgertutt]

JOSEPH PRINCE

Response to Joseph Prince who claims to have "dismantled" universal salvation in sixty seconds.

http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Allinadam.html

[marie glen]

JOKING?

I guess God was joking and did not really mean it...

...when He said:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Shall not be in a state of being lost (apollumi), but shall have life during the ages which collectively come to an end. Heb. 9:26.

And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
They will lose it for the eons but will find it again when the eons collectively end Heb. 9:26

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Instead of being forgiven, they will suffer the consequences. But the consequences are age-during, not eternal.

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will restore all destroyed souls when death is abolished. 1 Cor. 15:20-28

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Believers have life pertaining to the ages which collectively come to an end. Christ rejecters will receive kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) Matt 25:46.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Both in terms of duration and intensity God will administer just the right amount of kolasis aionios to everyone who needs it. Matt. 25:46.

Amen!! Sin ruins! But not 'for ever'! "God is love" and .."love never fails" "let all be untrue, unfaithful, but He is faithful.." (to "all"!  :dsunny: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: )

[rodgertutt]

JUDAS

Here is why the case of Judas does not disprove universal salvation.

Because of the betrayal of Judas, Jesus was introduced to the woe of extreme suffering. It would have been better for Jesus if Judas had not been born.

Greek scholar Louis Abbott wrote:

"Let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.

The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."

That is the understanding that the syntax requires.

Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."

MORE COMMENTARY ON JUDAS

"But what about Judas Iscariot? Doesn't it say it would have been better if he'd never been born?
Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!" It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus (the Son of Mankind/Him) if Judas (that man) had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39

Concerning Judas' title, "son of destruction", John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being "lost", "destroyed" or "perished". It is unwise to assume the word describes "eternal damnation". "For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi)." Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons, the 3 classes of vivification, "hell", and "annihilation".

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm 

[rodgertutt]

KINGDOM REIGN
The eons of the eons –  Joseph E. Kirk - Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20; 1 Tim.1:17; 2Tim.4:18; Heb.13:21; 1 Pet.4:11; 5:11; Rev.1:6; 4:9,10; 5:13,14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5 (for ever and ever); Rev.1:18 (for evermore). A comparison of Rev.11:14,15 with 1 Cor.15:27,28 makes it clear that the expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of eons.  Christ reigns for "the eons of the eons" after which He delivers up the Kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject that God may be all in all.

HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
"Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of the eons of the eons which is mistranslated "forever and ever."
In 1Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That's not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ 'gives up' the kingdom defines what the eons of the eons must mean. Jesus is God's mediator with mankind Who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ's reign ends, after which what is eternal continues."

EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
"That the expression 'the eons of the eons' (forever and ever, KJV) cannot mean an endless successions of eons is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with 1Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said to reign 'for the eons of the eons' but in 1Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign 'for ever and ever' though He does reign for the eons of the eons."

SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JAMES CORAM
"The use of 'forever and ever' instead of the accurate rendering 'for the eons of the eons,' is a gross mistranslation. Most translators simply lacked the insight to see the point of many of the passages that speak of the eons. Since they were able, however, to make sense of these passages by translating by 'everlasting' or 'eternal,' they simply went ahead and did so, any resultant problems notwithstanding. Due to a lack of sensible thinking it was impossible for them to face the fact that the usual translations of this word are quite mistaken and extremely harmful!"
James Coram

THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
In the memoir of the author it is written, "He found no quietude, until, by a candid and prayerful examination of the Bible, he became fully satisfied that 'God will have all men to be saved,' and that 'He doeth according to His will.' His change of opinion was soon noised abroad, and produced a great disaffection in many of his former friends.

Here is a snippet from the book.
"The reason why I do not conceive that "forever and ever" doth intend endless duration is because I find the words as often used for times and periods that must have an end, as you find them used for the misery of the wicked. You bring three passages which are all that are to be found in the whole Bible where they are used in that sense; I shall now invalidate those evidences for endless damnation by bringing an equal number of texts where you will allow the words are used in a limited sense. Is. 30:8; Jer. 7:7; Jer. 25:5.
These passages are as many and as strongly expressed as those which you brought to prove endless misery; and yet nothing can be more evident than that they cannot intend endless duration. The words do not necessarily imply that the wicked shall never be delivered from their sins and consequent suffering.
Now if the words "forever and ever" signify without end, then there is a contradiction that cannot be reconciled, but only understand them as the ages of the ages, (as indeed they ought to be rendered), and the whole difficulty vanishes at once."

"Forever and Ever"-- A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html

[rodgertutt]

THE KING JAMES IS WRONG

God says what the Greek says, not what the interpreted versions say.
God says what the literal translations say.

There are several dozen Greek scholars who agree with John Wesley Hanson that the KJV is wrong.

AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

#74 - AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
"By examining the texts of the Greek manuscripts we find the word AIONIOS or AGE LASTING in place of the word eternal of the King James version. AIONIOS the adjective modifies its noun AION or AGE and means lasting during the AGE, or AGE-LASTING.
For that meticulous student of the Word of God that was penned by the inspired writers, I am including this concordance of the Greek noun AION and its adjective AIONIOS for your reference in your studies of the mistranslations of the King James version versus the text of the Greek manuscripts."

THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE & GARY AMIRAULT
"Christian leaders have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is 'the inerrant' translation of the so-called original texts. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years, and there have been thousands of corrections!
This world need to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Read the prophets and you will not find a place of eternal torment for the wicked. If the Creator loved us and created such a horrible place, He would surely have plastered the warning everywhere. The KJV has the phrase 'everlasting punishment' only once. Yet, when looking at these word in the Greek, even these two references turn out to be 'age-during correction.' Again we ask, if eternal torment be the horrible fate of most of mankind, why such a little warning?
The Scriptures tell us the mind of man cannot conceive the height, length, depth, and width of our Father's love for His creation. His ways are much higher than our in all areas, including His justice, love, and wisdom. He wounds, but like a doctor, to bring about healing. He says 'Vengeance is Mine' knowing only He can return good for evil, an innocent life for a guilty one. He overcomes His enemies with good and tells you to do the same. His love never fails. Believe it. It will never fail anyone, including you. You can now enter into your rest. 'For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth, of things in the heavens (Col. 1:20).

THE REAL GOSPEL (GOOD NEWS) – BERT BAUMAN
"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."

EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."

[rodgertutt]

THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."

EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

[darryl]

THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.
While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."

EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED
Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

Amen...this is our Hope, our Yearning..it almost seems to good to be true but, interpreted correctly, the Bible teaches it......the Truth of it is staggering...i cannot speak for the Awe of it...the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ truly is that powerful...to save ALL...PRAISE GOD !.

[rodgertutt]

SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL GO TO HEAVEN

A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED

Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

[rodgertutt]

Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html

[rodgertutt]

C.S. Lewis wrote, "The greatest surprise for Satan will happen when he learns he has been doing the will of God all along."

I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.
https://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html

A BIBLE DICTIONARY – John R. Beard
"The word translated 'everlasting' or 'eternal' expresses time, and not eternity.

Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.

How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?

Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning."

[rodgertutt]

THE LAST CHAPTER IN THE BIBLE

RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
"The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. 'As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.' Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).

AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
"The culmination of God's Word is found in 1Corinthian 15 when God become All in all. The book of Revelation does not take us quite this far. Corruption is eliminated and our bodies are now incorruptible. The worst enemy of all, death, has been abolished.
The salvation of all has not meant the ignoring of sin. The lake of fire, the second death has accomplished its work. All men now recognize the wondrous ways of God and His grace as expressed through the work of Christ. The salvation of all does not negate or minimize the work of the cross. The work of Christ upon the cross and the power of God as displayed through the resurrection, were both very necessary.
But now at the end of the ages we see the true scope of God's work. Despite the sin and rebellion of humanity, God has found a way to bring every soul to the point of acceptance. The ages have ended. The purpose of the eons has now been fulfilled; to reconcile all to God. Wickedness and evil are gone. Death is no more. God is love, and He is All in all. Eternal life in perfection has begun."

[rodgertutt]

LEMMINGS

The lot of lemmings – Martin Zender

"Lemmings are rodents that supposedly run
off cliffs together, committing mass suicide.
This is what happens, metaphorically,
to members of religious sects. Because
they are continually surrounded by
each other, and mindlessly accept whatever
they are taught by institutionally
trained "experts," they get the sense that
they are "all right." And yet they are not.
They are simply all wrong at the same
time and in the same place.

One of the largest religious sects, Christianity,
is so deceived that it thinks its members
are the only ones who will be with
God for eternity. This sort of exclusivity
(the eternal variety) is a sure sign of
religious sectarianism.

The common lot of humanity is death.
But—thanks to Christ—the common lot of
humanity is also eternal life. The difference
between those who believe truth and
those who don't is timing; it is a difference
of when each person emerges from death,
into life. Those who believe now emerge
early; they live—and some of them reign
with Christ—for two future eons. The rest
of humankind remain dead until the great
white throne judgment. After this judgment,
some go to the new earth as mortals,
some to the second death. When the second
death is abolished, however, all will
have eternal life.

For now, the mass of humanity—religious
and otherwise—is rushing over the cliff of
death. The only thing able to stop this tide
is the miracle of God-given faith. For now,
God gives faith to few. Later, He will give
it to all.

If you have escaped lemminghood, thank God."

[rodgertutt]

THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC – DR. LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD

The following is my all-time favorite quote. I've had it memorized for many years and have quoted it frequently. As a staunch universalist, Dr. Leslie Weatherhead meant it to include everyone without exception, after everyone who needs it experiences kolasis aionion, or age-during corrective chastisement.

"God's purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God's age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep."
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead

[rodgertutt]

A POEM BY WIILIAM WORDSWORTH (1770-1850)

One adequate support
For the calamities of mortal life
Exists, one only; - an assured belief
That the procession of our fate, howe'er
Sad or disturbed, is ordered by a being
Of infinite benevolence and power,
Whose everlasting purposes embrace
All accidents, converting them to good.

[marie glen]

               :cloud9:

[rodgertutt]

Alexander von Humboldt (1767-1835) wrote
"The conviction, arising from a firm confidence in Almighty goodness and justice – that death is only the termination of an imperfect state of being, whose purpose cannot be fully carried out here, and that it is the passage to a better and higher condition, should be so constantly present to us, that nothing should be able to obscure it, even for a moment; it is the groundwork of inner peace, and of the loftiest endeavors, and is an inexhaustible spring of comfort in affliction."