SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

I believe that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.

I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 78 years old now.

People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/

[marie glen]

AMEN! AMEN! Absolutely! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Every seeming reference to less than Universal Salvation / Reconciliation / Redemption / Repentance.. is actually quite easily disproven.. And LOGIC! :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

[rodgertutt]

ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF

ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment."

Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.

CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."

Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."

Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).

I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.

Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"

THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[marie glen]

A thousand amens! :gsmile: It seems to me the common thought of the belief in an imperfect outcome, is the belief that mankind was somehow stolen from God.. Things somehow fell out of His control, and oh dear He can only manage to save so many.. or is only interested in saving a few..

But really, thinking soberly, how could we know and experience perfect joy.. peace, or happiness and break forth into praise, singing and even dance (Acts 2) without having ever known the other side of the coin? The other possibility, imperfection.. How? Without being made aware of all its terrible possibilities, consequences and potentials?

Another great post Roger!! :thumbsup: [Thank you!]

[rodgertutt]

:-)

Augustine and Matthew 25:46
     Augustine gave a couple of reasons why he believed it was in vain that some, indeed very many, in his day, believed there was no eternal punishment:

    "It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture–but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. " 'God will not forget,' " they say, " 'to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy.' " This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm. But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy," those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, " 'Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment.' " Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: " 'But the righteous into life eternal.' "
(end quote)

It may be that many of the early believers in Augustine's day did "deplore the notion of eternal punishment" by yielding to "human feelings" and reliance upon God's mercy. But, was Augustine correct to quote Matthew 25:46 to support the notion of "eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery''? I say No, he was not.
     He is saying that if punishment is temporary then it logically follows that the life for the righteous is temporary as well. But is Matthew 25:31-46 really saying this is about the fate of "damned" vs. the righteous for all eternity? No! This judgment takes place when Christ comes back and sets up His 1000 year kingdom (see also Revelation 20). When Christ comes back (Matt.25:31) He will call the nations to this judgment. They will be judged as to how Christ's brethren were treated. Having faith in Christ or lack thereof is not what they are being judged for. Christ never calls the sheep nations His brothers but He does tell them that they treated His brethren correctly.
     Secondly, the "kolasin aionion" or "chastening eonian" which the goat nations must endure is equal in length to the life (zoe aionion/life eonian) in the kingdom which the sheep nations enjoy. When the 1000 year eon ends, both the chastening of the goat nations and the life of the sheep nations end. Then all must appear before the great white throne. The earth is destroyed and I'm sure that some from both groups of the goat and sheep nations will enter into the lake of fire.
     But this is not their "eternal" lot, for, one day, death, (the second death) which the lake of fire is called, will be abolished, all will be made alive (be vivified or given immortality), subjected to Christ and God will be All in all, not All in some (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
     Augustine, for all his brilliance, was not given to see certain truths in the Scriptures. While he may have been correct to state that the given psalm was meant to pertain to the vessels of mercy, It is too bad that he did not see the truth of Romans 11:32 how that God should be merciful in the future to those who are enemies to the evangel and stubborn now.
Tony Nungesser

http://www.saviourofall.org/2003Newsletters/42003Augustine.html

[rodgertutt]

AUGUSTINE

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -

QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God's wording
"In Christ all shall be made alive"
not
All who are in Christ

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[rodgertutt]

From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION  library of Rodger Tutt

BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)

1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK

BOOKS WITH STAPLES

1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY

[joeteekay]

My, what an impressive list. Wish I had time to read them all. But, I have read some.
Thanks Rodger.

[rodgertutt]

BAPTISM

There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.

QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?

[rodgertutt]

GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/?s=choosing+what+is+choice
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX
"That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We've portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it's up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.

We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation 'is not of him that willeth' (any decision we make of ourselves), 'nor of him that runneth' (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)

Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"

[rodgertutt]

Butch Cassidy

To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."

But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.

On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "

[jugghead]

I agree with sundance  :laugh:

I stopped eating from the "tree of the knowledge of heaven and hell", I only eat from the tree of life now

[rodgertutt]

CHARLES SLAGLE

Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.

If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 78 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm

You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle

In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.

If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.

After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?

[bushy]

Even though for me I had come to know (be pretty sure) that I would be ok after death, I still had a twinge of fear from reading some things in the bible. My conversion to UR happened in a second and after that I could not have changed my mind if I tried but I was ignorant of many answers to objections people raise. Charles Slagle's writings helped me get grounded more than anyone else so I have a special place in my heart for him.

Now it seems to me, even though nobody says it, that everyone has to be satisfied with saving their own skin and to hell with everyone else. I guess it's a good thing most people are ok with that instead of going crazy, but calling that the gospel is disgusting. I'm so thankful for the peace that comes with understanding the truth.

[rodgertutt]

Me too bushy   :iagree:

"SECOND CHANCE"

It is true that God doesn't give anyone a second chance after they die.
But it is also true that God doesn't even give anyone a first chance while they are still alive. God doesn't save anyone by chance. But He will eventually save everyone on purpose.

CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus, our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
We are saved when God wants us to be, no thanks to ourselves at all.

SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS DEBARRED

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

Repentance will occur when God lays hold on the sinner by His saving grace.

"Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.

We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the
purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains." -Snippet from the Concordant Commentary

"It is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the merciful." –Verse 16. Verse 23 informs us that the vessels of mercy are made ready before for glory. Romans 8:28-30 further describes God's working in those He chooses to enjoy life during the oncoming eons. Therefore, we read in Acts 13:48, "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

You might ask, "By whom were they set for eonian life?" God leaves no doubt in that regard; It is God's choice in grace. The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him who is calling- Ro. 9:11. See also Ro. 11:5; Eph. 1:4; John 12:37-40.
This separation, or election, which God makes, is concerned with eonian salvation, during the present wicked eon and in the two oncoming, glorious eons. God chooses final and unending salvation for all universally after the eons have run their course. John 12:32; Ro. 11:32; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 4:9-11.
James Coram

[rodgertutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."

And they were reading the Bible in its original language. 

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html   

[marie glen]

 :banana: :banana: :banana: :thumbsup:

[jugghead]

Though many look at this world and think God is just sitting by just watching, hoping that men will turn to Him

To rest in the peace that goes beyond any understanding of men is to know

LOVE CANNOT FAIL
LOVE WILL NOT FAIL

And to repeat the title of the book

LOVE WINS

To know there are so many out there that think the same way is always an encouragement and to repeat what rodger said

His greatest grace is keeping people from going insane when they think about eternal torment

I believe God just whispers in the ear of their heart "It's not true"

[rodgertutt]

AUGUSTINE

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -

QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God's wording
"In Christ all shall be made alive"
not
All who are in Christ

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[marie glen]

Amen.. how does "no death" somehow not equal "none dead" - if even one is dead, can it be said that there is no death? The way it is read or thought of, is as there will be "no dying". But this isn't logical. If my brother or sister, mother or daughter, father or son is dead, then death has not been vanquished nor defeated. But death won. So if God loses more than He saves.. Well. I'm sorry but that makes no sense.

Amen, Jugghead! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Even though for me I had come to know (be pretty sure) that I would be ok after death, I still had a twinge of fear from reading some things in the bible. My conversion to UR happened in a second and after that I could not have changed my mind if I tried but I was ignorant of many answers to objections people raise.

This is where I think we're all at.. wanting to communicate those answers, perhaps help to make them plain..

I'm so thankful for the peace that comes with understanding the truth.

[rodgertutt]

From the hard copy UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION  library of Rodger Tutt

BOOKS WITH SPINES (NO STAPLES)

1. REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
2. ALL IN ALL - A.E. KNOCH
3. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH
4. THE INESCAPABLE LOVE OF GOD – THOMAS TALBOTT
5. A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU
6. SALVATOR MUNDI: OR, IS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN? – SAMUEL COX
7. GOD'S RULES FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION AND MAN'S PLACE IN GOD'S PURPOSE – CHARLES J. PEART
8. THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S WILL – GUY MARKS
9. A CLOUD OF WITNESSES – J.W. HANSON
10. TRUTH AS I SEE IT – W.F. SALTER
11. A SHORT HELP AND INCENTIVE TO AN UNBIASED INQUIRY INTO THE SCRIPTURE TRUTH OF UNIVERSALISM OR THE FINAL RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS – R. ROE
12. THE FIVE SMOOTH STONES OF THE KINGDOM – IRENE LINDSAY
13. TIME AND ETERNITY- G.T. STEVENSON
14. THE DIVINE DESTINY – K. ROSS MCKAY
15. IS HELL ETERNAL? – MIKKEL DAHL AND JON R. WELKER
16. THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
17. THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON
18. A LETTER OF THE CELEBRATED JOHN FOSTER TO A YOUNG MINISTER ON THE DURATION OF FUTURE PUNISHMENT AND AN EARNEST APPEAL TO THE AMERICAN TRACT SOCIETY IN REGARDS TO THE CHARACTER OF ITS PUBLICATIONS – JOHN FOSTER
19. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD'S PLAN FAIL - CHARLES H. PRIDGEON
20. THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
21. THE GREAT REVELATION OR GOD'S LOVE, PURPOSE AND PLAN – JOHN H. PATON
22. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
23. DARE WE HOPE THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED – HANS URS VON BALTHASAR
24. GOD'S ULTIMATE – A.E. SAXBY
25. A SPIRITUAL AUTOBIOGRAPHY – WILLIAM BARCLAY
26. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
27. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
28. THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU
29. THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
30. RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
31. YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA
32. THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
33. HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN
34. AT THE END OF THE AGES THE ABOLITION OF HELL – BOB EVELY
35. THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS OR A VINDICATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE MANIFESTED AT LAST IN THE RECOVERY OF HIS WHOLE CREATION OUT OF THEIR FALL – JEREMIAH WHITE
36. THE GREAT DELVERANCE – GUY MARKS
37. UNION – JAMES RELLY
38. THE UNIVERSAL RESTORATION – ELHANAN WINCHESTER
39. THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
40. GRACIOUS GOSPEL BOOK FOUR – SHERWOOD MICHAEL
41. HOW TO KEEP 0N LIVING – DUSEAN BERKICH
42. THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK

BOOKS WITH STAPLES

1. TIME, ETERNITY AND GOD – REDEMPTION'S GLORY – RAY PRINZING
2. THE MAGNITUDE OF REDEMPTION – RAY PRINZING
3. THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING
4. DIVINE INWORKINGS – ALL IN ALL – RAY PRINZING
5. THE UNENDING TRIUMPH OF JESUS CHRIST – ED GREGORY
6. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. ADAMS
7. THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND - JOSEPH KIRK, WILLIAM C. REBMANN, DEAN HOUGH, AND JAMES CORAM
8. ETERNAL TORMENT OR UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – A.E. KNOCH
9. CREATION, REDMPTION AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
10. EONIAN - EVERLASTING OR AGE-LASTING – GRACE H. TODD
11. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – JOHN H. ESSEX
12. THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX
13. THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND
14. GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES
15. TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
16. A RANSOM FOR ALL – E.T. SPRINGETT MOXHAM
17. THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
18. "HELL" – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF
19. "ONE" AND "ALL" – JOHN ESSEX
20. ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND
21. "ETERNAL LIFE" – LOYAL F. HURLEY
22. TORTURING DOUBTS AND EXULTANT FAITH – JAMES CORAM
23. THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB
24. THE CONCEPT OF CIRCULARITY – JACK E. JACOBSEN
25. GOD'S PERFECT PLAN – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
26. THE CROSS AND THE AGES TO COME – G. CAMPBELL MORGAN
27. NOTES FROM ROMANS 5 – W.H. GRIFFITH THOMAS
28. DEFINITION OF BIBLE TERMS – GEORGE R. HAWTIN
29. HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN – VIRGENE ANDREWS
30. AGES OR ETERNITY AND THE KING JAMES VERSION – JOHN DOKAS
31. THE PLAN OF REDEMPTION SEEN FROM GOD'S VIEWPOINT – DORA VAN ASSEN
32. DIVINE JUDGMENT - DORA VAN ASSEN
33. GOD'S UNFAILING PLAN REVEALED IN THE EONS – DORA VAN ASSEN
34. THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH – PAUL MUELLER
35. "ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME" – K. ROSS MCKAY
36. " MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND" – K. ROSS MCKAY
37. " FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL – K. ROSS MCKAY
38. THE GREAT WHITE THRONE – AUTHOR UNKNOWN
39. PROGRESSIVE REVELATION WITHIN THE BIBLE – EARNEST L. MARTIN
40. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
41. THE PLACE OF HUMANITY IN GOD'S PURPOSE – JOHN H. ESSEX
42. A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE SCRIPTURES – G.J. SALTER
43. RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
44. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
45. OUR CHURCH FATHERS TESTIFY – JACK JACOBSON
46. WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED – KENNETH BRIX
47. BE YE RECONCILED – VIRGENE ANDREWS
48. MY UNEXPECTED DISCOVERY – HANNAH WHITALL SMITH
49. WHENCE ETERNITY? – ALEXANDER THOMSON
50. MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON
51. TARDY OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL – F. NEIL POHORLAK
52. MARTIN ZENDER GOES TO HELL – MARTIN ZENDER
53. THE DEPTHS OF GOD WILL RETRIEVE ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
54. NONE LOST, NONE DESTROYED – ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
55. SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - ANTHONY J. BORRELLO
56. 100 SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
57. A TRUE REVELATION AND A SECOND WITNESS – TRAVIS OGLETREE
58. THE CHRIST OF GLORY – MARVIN W. RICE
59. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
60. THE "EVIL" FROM THE LORD – MICHAEL KILLIAN
61. THE FEET MINISTRY – DON BRUCE
62. HELL – J.W. WILLIAMS
63. LIFE FOR ALL - CHARLES W. COTTON
64. UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
65. 125 NUTS FOR CALVINISTS TO CRACK – C.R. BIERBOWER
66. ALL AND ALL IN ALL – VINCE HOLLANDER AND HENRY BULLER
67. THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
68. THE EARLY VIEW OF THE SAVIOR – GARY AMIRAULT
69. ETERNAL DEATH – ONE STEP OUT OF HELL, ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY - GARY AMIRAULT
70. THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL – TONY HINKLE
71. THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
72. OVERWHELMING GRACE – JOHN H. ESSEX
73. THE GOSPEL OF GRACE – CHARLES W. WELLER
74. JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
75. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – LOYAL F. HURLEY
76. THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
77. WHAT GOD SAYS CONCERNING HELL – J.F. RODGERS
78. MAN'S FAILURE OR GOD'S SUCCESS – WHICH WILL STAND? – LEE SALISBURY
79. ETERNITY EXPLAINED – LEE SALISBURY
80. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN? (SERIES OF13 VOLUMES) J. PRESTON EBY

[marie glen]

That would be good to put in an all new topic/thread.. and then closing it.. So we could link to it! (can we link directly to a post in a thread?)

P.S. - aha! yes we can! - http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/snippets-from-the-hard-copy-ur-library-of-rodger-tutt/msg205172/#msg205172

[rodgertutt]

BAPTISM

There are thousands of Salvation Army officers in the world.
There are also thousands of lay people who attend Salvation Army meetings.
And there are thousands of people who attend the various Brethren Assemblies.
All of these people disobey Matthew 28:19
None of them believe in baptism.

QUESTION FOR YOU BELIEVERS IN ETERNAL TORMENT
Do you believe that all of these thousands of people will suffer forever?

[jugghead]

Another big question to those who believe in eternal torment:

If there are "none righteous, no not one" and "all fall short of the glory of God" ..... in other words "ALL" are guilty of sin ..... is God being a just God if He saves just some when "ALL" are guilty of sin?

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: