God of this world?

[micah7:9]

Great discussion guys! (male and female of course)

"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"

Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God.  :2c:

hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree.. And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.

It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did.

But I believe some are allowed to descend further downward into the abyss of "choice" possibility.. (My belief, the abyss is "how low can we go? - bottomless! which is part of what we are learning?)

Otherwise I could think God designed and programmed me to specifically do those errors (sins) of my own.. and then they are not really my own. God made me do it.

But James wrote -

1:13 Let no one say, being tempted—'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.

3:11 (God as fountain) "doth the fountain out of the same opening pour forth the sweet and the bitter?"

and 4:1 "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires that war in your members?"

That's why He made war horses.

...but were they war horses "in the beginning".. and were some animals predators from the beginning? Or is it part of "the curse"?

Genesis 1:30 .."and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which [is] breath of life, every green herb [is] for food:' and it is so."

Is the "evil one" the author of confusion and the father of lies(Jesus' words not mine) or is God? Is Satan "a murderer from the beginning" or is God?

At the very least, as it appears to me- God set the stage and we are actors in it and we have our roles and within the stage we play them out by His design- and find our resolution within the play- becoming sons of God. Satan's role is "adversary"; "deceiver"; murderer"....etc.

The reading of the verse could be a matter of perspective- a toss up- if it wasnt for all those other verses.

If the roles are reversed, the play makes no sense and becomes and exercise of God within which we are just puppets in a charade, a comedy of errors, a gothic theater of the absurd.

:thumbsup: :iagree:

  I do think He blinds certain men on purpose..to fulfill His purpose..He even states frankly that He bound all men up in disobedience.

   for if they had KNOWN that He was the Lord of Glory they would not have crucified Him....the scriptures must be fulfilled......

   and negative roles must be fulfilled in men[Judas/Pharoah/Absalom/Herod/] some men in this life are assigned to play the black/roles

    it's like He plays negative chess..moving both white and black pieces at will.    I believe there are certain things He desires to happen

  to all that have eaten from the tokogae..before He grants access unto the TOL........and then the 'CHANGE"

I (think I) agree with that.. but i see it perhaps more of a "we would all fall to the utter depths of darkness, all of us, eventually, if we had been simply left on our own.. no Great Plan of Salvation :mshock: (how terrible! and terrifying!)

  and ps  no,I am not a gnostic and I do not believe that flesh is evil of itself..but do believe it is sucseptible to evil spiritual influence

    death and corruption..also that flesh man can be naïve/ignorant/deceived and unstable in all His ways..

I agree.. but as an effect, not a cause - which as a cause, is what the gnostics proclaimed.. among other things   

Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him?

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)

Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

All of those examples are specific disciplinary actions.

     just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose.

2 Cor 4:4 is speaking of the entire unbelieving world

I do believe God has shut up all in disobedience, but He is not the one keeping them there. His mercy has been given, We are announcing it. The Lord is working with us.

And that is exactly what the verse says in context.

1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

The words I put in bold describe, not who we are- but who God is in us. Not walking in craftines. Who is crafty? Surely not God.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The way I see it, that is God's pre-disposition towards man. "In all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He puposed in Himself.....the gathering together into one all things in Christ."

Do I believe God is ultimately responsible for evrything? Yep. The inner workings of that may be above my paygrade ....

"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?"

But I am not trying to answer the whole question of good and evil for anybody, including myself. it is a mystery. I prefer it that way.

I just dont think 1 Cor 4:4 is speaking about God, and wouldnt make sense in the context(which begins in in Chptr 3:1) if it did.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The thing about Satan blinding is that it gives him/it/whatever a lot of power. How does he/it/whatever have the power to do that to so many people? It seems too supernatural and omnipotent for a mere created tool/fallen being, whatever you think he/it is. Deceiving is different. Another being can deceive me, but another being cannot blind me.  Being blind implies an at least temporarily unchanging state until a healing takes place.

this made me want to look up the Greek # - for blinded in this verse (2 Cor 4:4) - turns out to be G5186 which includes -

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) to blind, make blind
2) in the NT metaph. to blunt the mental discernment, darken the mind

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G5185; to make blind, that is, (figuratively) to obscure:—blind.     
       :Chinscratch:

If Satan is blinding everyone that's fine too, to me it doesn't matter if the creator or something he created is doing that work, because we know HE has built in the rescue for ALL. These discussions are more thought-exercises for us I think, because in the end it comes down to opinion and what we feel is closest to the truth.

And yeah, life is really horrific. Many of us know first hand of this and from knowledge of history and current events as well. I don't think anyone on here thinks God allows evil  for His entertainment, but for a greater good in which evil is somehow necessary, and while we all would like to think we "get it" it really is out of our grasp in this age to understand what the heck is going on :) ...even with some God-given glimpses here and there. 

:iagree: but, I think there will come a time when is fulfilled Jesus' words that the HS will lead into all truth, which I think was likely fulfilled in the apostles(?) but now the gospel has been handed down through very many human hands..

I guess I see Satan as having far more experience in all these matters, been working his end for about 6000 years, as compared to each one of our short life span.. (in comparison). I think the world is covered with untruth somewhat like a heavy, wet quilt set low in the atmosphere, covering the earth.. A tapestry Satan has had a lot of time to weave. And I think it does "obscure, darken the mind, blunt the mental discernment.."

many are called..but few are chosen...the deception being so great that if possible..even the chosen  would be deceived.........

"if possible even the chosen would be decieved" :faint: You are very right!

....there you go.  if you examine the scriptures..you will find Our Father chooses a few good men. one or two prophets at a time

     a few men for the battle...that it be shown it is by His spirit/power and not flesh strength of men. Of coarse satan calls men

  to a false prophet status,many anti-Christ"s etc. ..and the people face the dilemma...who is speaking truth? a twisted version or truth?

  nothing new under the sun...satan come twisting the word of God to Eve from the beginning..even unto Jesus in the wilderness

  we are not greater than He..............if God allows the adversary to tempt and try us all so what?  Jesus is the pattern son......

  and satan attempted to tempt and try and crucified Him.   a lie can draw out a wicked desire in your heart..and if it is there.....

  you will love it..the lie...and not love the truth.if you hear the truth..and reject it..chosing instead something that 'tickles your ears"

{ and many like their ears tickled]  if our eternal life depended on all men knowing/understanding perfectly in this life..and walking

it out perfectly..I believe that is exactlywhat God would do. Jesus said...ye will have tribulation in this world[even great trib]

but fear not! for I have overcome the world.

    He makes all things new...He said the clay become 'marred" in His hands....and He has authority to make another vessel

  of the same lump.This creation is His 'baby" and no-one loves it more than Him.  He put eternity in man's heart......Jesus

was in the heart of the earth for 3 days/nights....that's the heart of the son...not servant...that remains in the household.

   all mankind is to remain in the household of God .     Zion says...'Who bore me these? I was all alone"  apparently lost children

  come home.....

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 09:15:33 PM

"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"

Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God.  :2c:
hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree.. And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.
Incredible. Now angels make choices  :Chinscratch:

It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did."

No, I have never said anything of the kind. What I have said and still say that the Lord God is the "cause" for all things and should He not be the cause for all things then He is not the God I can follow. Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

Thank you all very much but without evidence that satan/devil/serpent/old dragon has blinded then I am stuck. There is abundant evidence in verses where the adversary deceives in many ways that's what the enemy does.... deceives, but does not blind.

Perhaps this example from the historical past might shed more light on this"

Then a spirit came forth, stood before Yahweh and said, I myself shall entice him. Yahweh asked him, By what means? He replied, I shall go forth, and I will become a false spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. Then He said, You shall entice, and, moreover, you shall prevail. Go forth and do so. And now behold, Yahweh has given a false spirit into the mouth of all these, your prophets, for Yahweh Himself has decreed evil concerning you.
(1Ki 22:21-23)

A spirit from the host of heaven gathered before God say he will entice Ahab by becoming a false spirit in the mouth of Ahab's prophets.

God gives this false spirit into their mouths, decreeing evil concerning in the process.

Now, bringing this forward to the time that Paul wrote:

What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. And David is saying, Let their table become a trap and a mesh, And a snare and a repayment to them: Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually. I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:7-11)

What I see here is the same thing, where God is the one giving a spirit who causes them not to see and not to hear. The language, at least from the Aramaic compared the Hebrew, is strikingly similar. This is the same callousness that he writes about in 2Co 3, and fleshes out in chapter 4.

God is the ultimate cause, yet the spirit sent is the means.

As to the reason for it all, it is certainly not anything I would have thought up. It,on the surface, sounds foolish to me. Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him? Ah, but it turns out that I am the fool, for it is I who had been blinded and far too narrow in my thinking.

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)

Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.

:dsunny:

[jugghead]

I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  me too!

[eaglesway]

I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right

Both of those are polar extremes of view to me. One view- "left on my own with no strings" :o)

Of course, no one wants to be there.

The other view "a puppet". Really, I dont want to be there either but...

I guess I would rather be the puppet also if those were the only two realities. But they arent.

God does not always "tell us what to do". He is not raising puppets, He is discipling sons and daughter to reign over the inheritance with Christ as stewards in the Fathers house.

So some times He tells us what to do, sometimes He leaves us to decide. To experience the consequences of good choices or ill, to learn and "prove what is that good, perfect and acceptable will of God."

And as any good Father raising children to adutlhood, He is always intimately involved. Like a Potter, His hands are always there in the formation of the vessel.

The model of freedom is not as unscriptural as some would paint it, and it is not freedom as in "anarchy" or "total self determination".

It is about rearing children.

In the parable of the prodigal, the Father operates in the model of freedom. He allows the son to take his inheritance and squander it. When the son returns, having learned the lesson, the Father received Him with joy. Some of us must learn as the prodigal. Some only need learn by a verbal reproof from the Father- like tho olde brother.

If the parable is not a metaphor about how God deals with us, I really dont know what else it could be.

But neither extreme view of Calvism or Aminianism realisticly addresses it- and that why there is SO much division over it.

I have said this before and I will say it again, whenever there are two polarizing extremes over theological questions, they are usually two sides of one coin, and the truth that binds them together is a little further down the road BEYOND either view. In this case I think the truth that unbinds this seeming paradox is the Fatherhood of God, who is always watching over His children, to protect them, to guide them- and He is not afraid to let them make a mistake so they can learn and grow either- and He doesnt "make them make their mistakes". They would never grow. But He does make sure that he acheives the desired end, whether we are wise and listen to His voice, or foolish and have to break up on the rocks a few times before we embrace His ways. Walking in His ways is the ultimate freedom.

I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, some cannot abide the Father's discipline and oversight- some cannot handle stewardship and freedom.

No worries.... plan B will catch them all, no matter where they fall, God has predestined it. ;o)

[marie glen]

Amen! And isn't it just so very blessed to know that..!? :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right

Both of those are polar extremes of view to me. One view- "left on my own with no strings" :o)

Of course, no one wants to be there.

The other view "a puppet". Really, I dont want to be there either but...

I guess I would rather be the puppet also if those were the only two realities. But they arent.

God does not always "tell us what to do". He is not raising puppets, He is discipling sons and daughter to reign over the inheritance with Christ as stewards in the Fathers house.

So some times He tells us what to do, sometimes He leaves us to decide. To experience the consequences of good choices or ill, to learn and "prove what is that good, perfect and acceptable will of God."

And as any good Father raising children to adutlhood, He is always intimately involved. Like a Potter, His hands are always there in the formation of the vessel.

The model of freedom is not as unscriptural as some would paint it, and it is not freedom as in "anarchy" or "total self determination".

It is about rearing children.

In the parable of the prodigal, the Father operates in the model of freedom. He allows the son to take his inheritance and squander it. When the son returns, having learned the lesson, the Father received Him with joy. Some of us must learn as the prodigal. Some only need learn by a verbal reproof from the Father- like tho olde brother.

If the parable is not a metaphor about how God deals with us, I really dont know what else it could be.

But neither extreme view of Calvism or Aminianism realisticly addresses it- and that why there is SO much division over it.

I have said this before and I will say it again, whenever there are two polarizing extremes over theological questions, they are usually two sides of one coin, and the truth that binds them together is a little further down the road BEYOND either view. In this case I think the truth that unbinds this seeming paradox is the Fatherhood of God, who is always watching over His children, to protect them, to guide them- and He is not afraid to let them make a mistake so they can learn and grow either- and He doesnt "make them make their mistakes". They would never grow. But He does make sure that he acheives the desired end, whether we are wise and listen to His voice, or foolish and have to break up on the rocks a few times before we embrace His ways. Walking in His ways is the ultimate freedom.

I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, some cannot abide the Father's discipline and oversight- some cannot handle stewardship and freedom.

No worries.... plan B will catch them all, no matter where they fall, God has predestined it. ;o)

May I ask from your statement, "I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, ..."
Do you consider the "many" to be all? I do, from this statement by Paul Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Just curious......thanks

[marie glen]

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 09:15:33 PM

"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"

Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God.  :2c:
hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree.. And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.
Incredible. Now angels make choices  :Chinscratch:

It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did."

No, I have never said anything of the kind. What I have said and still say that the Lord God is the "cause" for all things and should He not be the cause for all things then He is not the God I can follow. Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.  :Peace2:

I don't get the difference, Micah.. don't you think God is engineer? If we look around us what do we see? Even one of the biggest (most glaring issue) is called "choice"... Either we are thinking rational creatures, with the ability to make choices.. or we are.. what? :dunno:

It was the literal serpent which now crawls and is called a snake which deceived / tricked Eve? "Angels which left their first place.." Where did they go? How did they leave?

:dontknow: sorry, I just don't understand what your idea is.. If He didn't 'program' hitler and the like to do just as they did.. how did they do it?

I do think God is in full control.. I believe "how low can one go?" is a bottomless pit. This pertaining to every rational creature not (yet) "sealed" into God's will.. And that He chooses who goes to what depths in their wandering years..

Why do they wander? Because it is His will. He engineered it to be thus.. Isn't this life the example which is and will prove God right in all things?

I'm baffled.. :dontknow: :laughing7: :Peace2: :girlheart: God bless!

[micah7:9]

Nothing I could say that would explain your dilemma. I mean no offence :Peace2:

[jugghead]

I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right

Both of those are polar extremes of view to me. One view- "left on my own with no strings" :o)

Of course, no one wants to be there.

The other view "a puppet". Really, I dont want to be there either but...

I guess I would rather be the puppet also if those were the only two realities. But they arent.

God does not always "tell us what to do". He is not raising puppets, He is discipling sons and daughter to reign over the inheritance with Christ as stewards in the Fathers house.

So some times He tells us what to do, sometimes He leaves us to decide. To experience the consequences of good choices or ill, to learn and "prove what is that good, perfect and acceptable will of God."

And as any good Father raising children to adutlhood, He is always intimately involved. Like a Potter, His hands are always there in the formation of the vessel.

The model of freedom is not as unscriptural as some would paint it, and it is not freedom as in "anarchy" or "total self determination".

It is about rearing children.

In the parable of the prodigal, the Father operates in the model of freedom. He allows the son to take his inheritance and squander it. When the son returns, having learned the lesson, the Father received Him with joy. Some of us must learn as the prodigal. Some only need learn by a verbal reproof from the Father- like tho olde brother.

If the parable is not a metaphor about how God deals with us, I really dont know what else it could be.

But neither extreme view of Calvism or Aminianism realisticly addresses it- and that why there is SO much division over it.

I have said this before and I will say it again, whenever there are two polarizing extremes over theological questions, they are usually two sides of one coin, and the truth that binds them together is a little further down the road BEYOND either view. In this case I think the truth that unbinds this seeming paradox is the Fatherhood of God, who is always watching over His children, to protect them, to guide them- and He is not afraid to let them make a mistake so they can learn and grow either- and He doesnt "make them make their mistakes". They would never grow. But He does make sure that he acheives the desired end, whether we are wise and listen to His voice, or foolish and have to break up on the rocks a few times before we embrace His ways. Walking in His ways is the ultimate freedom.

I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, some cannot abide the Father's discipline and oversight- some cannot handle stewardship and freedom.

No worries.... plan B will catch them all, no matter where they fall, God has predestined it. ;o)

May I ask from your statement, "I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, ..."
Do you consider the "many" to be all? I do, from this statement by Paul Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Just curious......thanks

Good points EW and yes, I would agree that they are to extremes and two sides of the same coin, and as per your beliefs I would also agree since we may look at the two sides of the coin but most don't even think about what it is made of and how it became a coin with two sides ..... of which, the potter's vessel also has two sides, an inside and an outside .... and again what is the vessel made of and who made it? In short, I agree they are not the only options.

And with the statement micah brought up, may I also ask a question, does God call and then not choose them? and if not, why were they called in the first place just to be turned away? That's like calling them to a dinner and then not choosing them to eat. I myself still think about this.

I too believe (like micah) that the word "many" is all, and the only thing that makes sense to me in what I just said is, many are called but few choose (not few are chosen). Still meditating on this.

[sheila]

in the parable of the wedding feast..and those not clothed in a wedding garment..but strange apparel...the strange apparel is the

demonic doctrines and doctrines of men that cause them to leave the feast of Love.they are in the habit of feeding only themselves...

that is what causes them to get 'thrown out" Jesus accepts all that come to Him. the anti-Christ spirit in their own mind tells them

to get up and leave and reject it.   filthy rags of self-righteousness/just like Joshua was before his change of garments..as a

branch plucked out of the fire..with satan resisting the change..til the Lord rebuke him. :2c:

[marie glen]

"many are called but few choose (not few are chosen). Still meditating on this."...

          I never thought of that possibility.. I know I've read a translation, "many are called but few are choice" -- webster's = choice, select, the best of its kind or class :dunno:

  Interesting..

[eaglesway]

And with the statement micah brought up, may I also ask a question, does God call and then not choose them? and if not, why were they called in the first place just to be turned away? That's like calling them to a dinner and then not choosing them to eat. I myself still think about this.]And with the statement micah brought up, may I also ask a question, does God call and then not choose them? and if not, why were they called in the first place just to be turned away? That's like calling them to a dinner and then not choosing them to eat. I myself still think about this.

The "call" Jesus was speaking of here, imo, was the opportunity to become participants in the restoration of all things. That is the inheritance of the saints in the light. That is not something anyone who is an adversary still at the end of this life will be a part of. We are a chosen generation, who believe in this life. Joint heirs with Christ.

But I am not sure that I can answer the question about calling and choosing satisfactorily, even for myself, and I really believe God has left it a little fuzzy on purpose. I don't claim to know where the line between God's hand and our space to learn and grow as children and stewards is, or where the line between calling and choosing is.

What I do say is, no one in the extremes of either view has presented me with a model that includes all of the scriptures- so I believe the truth is deeper in- further on.


Man likes emphatic statements with clear logic lines that run out from his premise and pierce every dilemma and paradox with the same sword. That's how we get systematic theology where folks develop complex theories and dispensations in order to explain away verses that don't fit their model.

I believe many are called but few are chosen, because many choose not to heed the call and God allows them to refuse. That does not mean God is not in control, it means He makes allowances for the purpose of teaching and forming vessels.

Did God choose, for the rich young ruler to choose, not to forsake all and follow Jesus? Personally I think not. He was called, but he was not chosen because he would not choose to leave all and follow as a disciple of Christ.  I believe God allowed that. I dont believe God "made it happen". The rich young ruler cycled back to plan B, whatever that was for him- God did not forsake him, but he was left behind in terms of the glorious opportunity he was offered.

"Multitudes, Multitudes in the Valley of Decision. There the Day of the Lord will soon arrive". (Joel 3:14)

As I see it, mortal life is the valley of decision, the threshing floor where God gathers the wheat. The tares are bundled and burned for plan B. The wheat is threshed upon the threshing floor, beaten, blown, broken and separated from its worthless inedible outer husk- and then gathered and used to give bread of heaven without money.

The Tares(empty heads, fruitless branches) are gathered and burned. Grapes are trampled in the winepress of the wrath of God "outside the gates" - the metaphorical winepress of His dealings with adversaries and hypocrites. The metaphorical fire of Gehenna- also "outside the gates", where dead flesh is consumed and garbage works disposed of.....

God has given us metaphors and parables because the nuances and depths of the truths concerning such things as these cannot be contained in systems of theology, where men reduce wisdom to knowledge, because knowledge is easier than wisdom.

"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;"

"I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world."

"Inside the gates" are those who have already said in their hearts, "One thing I have asked from the Lord, that shall I also seek, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the day of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord and to meditate in His temple."

"Outdie the gates", in the winepress, as on the threshing floor, the husk is separated, the juice is poured off and allowed to settle, then it is poured off again, settled and poured until it is pure, drinkable.

"Moab has been at ease since his youth; He has also been at ease, like wine on its dregs, And he has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, Nor has he gone into exile. Therefore he retains his flavor, And his aroma has not changed. 12"Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will send to him those who tip vessels, and they will tip him over, and they will empty his vessels and shatter his jars.

God has given us all these metaphors and parables to show us who He is, who we are, and how He deals with us.

That leads me to believe we are in an "interaction" with God- not a "unilateral" action by YHWH. I think He would be bored to tears by that because He seeks fellowship, not servitude.

I don't think God wants to control everything and that is not His purpose, His way or His method. He leads, He teaches, He forms, He creates, He intricately works with each vessel, and I believe He has a predestined will for each vessel - but I think the vessel has some say in whether it gets to that destination via plan A, B, C or D.

I believe God has predestined  the sum of all things for the kosmos. I think He has foreordained the resolution of all futility. Part of that resolution is our becoming the children of God, a first fruits of the harvest, appointed to assist in "whole harvest". God has predestined that  eventually the light will overwhelm the darkness in each and all. He selects servants to advance His will and invests them with great callings and missions because people are the tools of His trade and His trade is restoring the whole creation, that is what the rich young ruler was offered- participation in the greatest calling ever.

So every soul passes through "tohu and bohu" within the threshing floor of mortal life, never finding resolution to their own chaos and futility until they hear that voice "Let there be light" and the veil is rent for them and they see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

"We all with unveiled face, beholding in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory".... then a few verses further on, "For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

And that is my short, unsatisfactory overview of something about which I am perfectly willing to say,  "I do not fully understand this particular paradox, and I don't think anyone else does either" :o)

I issue no teachings as edicts. I accept no edicts from others. And I understand that we are not following a straight line, we are climbing a mountain. As we near the pinnacle, the distance between our understandings will grow less and less. I think in the meantime we need to be careful how we apply our three dimensional reasonings to 5 dimensional realities and remain humble in our points of view.


I think Abraham is the prototype because he was the friend of God, and I think that is what God is making- a universe of friends.

[Dandelion]

I believe we are all called....all God's children have a divine purpose here, and God calls us all to a life of transformation; of giving Him Glory; of using all of our talents; of giving our life, second by second to Him. Paul was called, fell off of his horse and was blinded. I don't believe it is usually that outwardly dramatic, but, it definitely can be.

When do we pass the threshold of being called and then being chosen.....how much grace do we accept to follow our call? Is there a line drawn, or does the road just take more turns and twists or become a bit longer. I don't know.

I agree with EW when he says it is a climb up the mountain. I also agree we can choose A,B,C or D.....or more choices, perhaps.

I love the verse in the Bible that says.....and Noah walked with the Lord.

It is a step by step walk, each and every day.

He must be an ever present companion. We need the Holy Spirit to guide us. And, everyday, we need to leave the world more behind us, and see His Kingdom more and more on the horizon.

We need our full armor each day, as well. We must forsake the things in this world and yearn for the things of God.

And, yes, it is a process we probably know much less about than we would imagine.

D.

[jugghead]

in the parable of the wedding feast..and those not clothed in a wedding garment..but strange apparel...the strange apparel is the

demonic doctrines and doctrines of men that cause them to leave the feast of Love.they are in the habit of feeding only themselves...

that is what causes them to get 'thrown out" Jesus accepts all that come to Him. the anti-Christ spirit in their own mind tells them

to get up and leave and reject it.   filthy rags of self-righteousness/just like Joshua was before his change of garments..as a

branch plucked out of the fire..with satan resisting the change..til the Lord rebuke him. :2c:

The wedding feast and the strange apparel is the first thing that crossed my mind also, and as I was thinking about this last night and today ..... what else came to my mind was, if we are sons, being transformed into His image, the only choice we have is to say what Christ said "Not my will, but your will be done" ...... we take up our cross daily, follow Him and die to self for that is His will.

[jugghead]

and to EW, thank you for this: "the opportunity to become participants in the restoration of all things."

I already knew this ...... but with your repeating it, it hit me like a brick, :eek: and fell into place as part of my foundation. Or in other words, a seed that fell on good soil and immediately grew into a tree of life that bears the fruit of thankfulness. :dsunny:

To become participents is the privilege we are given :banana:

AMEN brother :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Amen jugghead!

This is something I recently posted on another forum in response to(imo) a rigid dispensationalalist, to the end that the details of our takes on the dispensations do not matter to the final resolution:

"Yes I see what you are saying in principle. As far as celestials(A. E. Knoch's term for the glorified children of God) are concerned.... Jesus is the protypical celestial. He is returning to earth and bringing heaven with Him. All of creation is travailing in birth pangs for the celestials to be revealed(if one wants to put it that way) and set the whole creation free from futility, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Post judgement, in the age following, or there abouts- all will undergo the restoration to celestial being- which is our glorious liberty. We already have the seed of it wthin us, having been given birth in it(as the children of God) by the emplanting of the incorruptible seed, which is Christ in us. Eventually all will be gathered into celestial being- using Knochs term for it, because God will be all in all. And we shall be the implements of that. Of being raised in celestial bodies Paul spoke in some detail that there will be a diversity of glories, such as the variety of the glories of stars, super novas, comets and various heavenly bodies, and the new heavens and the new earth will be, imo- celestial in nature- "Behold, I am making all things new". That newness is the celestial being of Jesus Christ- and being conformed to His image who is "the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of His nature". If any man be in Christ Jesus, he is a new creation.

So in the dispensation of the fulness of times, God is gathering all things into one in Christ(whether things in heaven or things in earth), and as Paul said, the branches that were cut off the one olive tree will be grafted in again, "Therefore all Israel will be saved". Already, among us, "the one new man", there is no difference, because the partition is taken down in Christ- as Paul said again, "For to this day when Moses is read, for them the veil remains, but we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, with ever-increasing glory(from glory to glory), by the Spirit, who is the Lord."

Whenever the veil is taken away for them, in this age or the next, they will also be transformed in that same image for they will behold Him as He is.

"Brothers and sisters, we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

Anyone who sees Him as He is will be transformed into that image, that new creation in Christ, each in their own order, according to the individual glory that God will give each one, through the dispensation of the fulness of times- no matter what differences we may see concerning the details of that administration.

We are learning that principle now hopefully-

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.Ro 12:1-3

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."

Paul is essientially speaking of humility there, as that is the "acceptable offering" (a broken and a contrite heart You will never cast out) and proves what is good, acceptable and perfect- as James also expressed in differnet temrs in in James 3:13-18

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies into conformity with His glorious body." (Phil 3:21)

"Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the holy prophets since ancient times."(Acts 3)

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. Heb 1:1-3

He is heir of all things, and anyone who is in Him is a joint heir, a son or daughter born not by the will of man or the will of the flesh, but of God. The inheritance is over(and under as serving reconciliation and restoration) the entire creation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col.1:15-20

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God Ro 8:18-21

17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

This glory is that of the celestial, and it wiil "swallow up" all that is stuck in futility (death, chaos, sin, tohu and bohu)- until all is glorified, all is celestial, first in us, and then in all- each in their own order."

IMO, There are enough parrallels in the writings of Peter, James, John and Paul to assume that all of the apostles understood this and proclaimed it.

[eaglesway]

Also as far as the word "saved" is concerned, which has meant "saved from eternal torment" to most people for well over a millenia, isnt the first-fruits of the harvest, "saved" out of the harvest?

Peter said "Be saved from(apo-out of Strongs 575 "of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken") this perverse generation" in His initial message to the Sanhedrin on Pentecost, the first proclamation of the gospel.(Acts 2:40)

When we are healed(saved, sozo, -delivered, healed, restored) we are saved "out of Adam" and "born not of the will of man, or the will of the flesh, but of the will of God". We become the children of God, a new generation, a new creature "in Christ"..

"Beloved, Now we are God's children, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see Him as He is."

Our salvation is the "gathering out" of the first- fruits. "Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights..... In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.


Born not of the will of man...but of God.

Along with what Paul says in Romans 8 we begin to see that this was the will of God from the beginning. We are that good and perfect gift, given as the first-fruits of that which is coming to the whole creation, called out to be deliverers, healers, restorers. To me, Romans 8:18-25 and Eph 1:9-14 are the ultimate foundational verses for a comprehensive view of eschatology.

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body." Phil 3:20

Why?

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.


Ecclesia means "separated ones", "called out ones".

Our salvation is the gift of God to the whole creation in Christ. "Christ in you the hope of glory"....."in hope that the creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God".

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.(Eph 1)

To the end that you who were first to believe would be to the praise of His glory.....With a view to the redemption of God's own possession

The pledge of the inheritance in us is a guarantee that God will redeem ALL His possession-not just us. Because He has redeemed us- who were sinners, alienated towards God and hostile in mind(Colossians 1)- the guarantee is that God will redeem all, and Paul lays this out throughout Ephesians, referring back to it frequently...

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.(Eph 2)

Surely you have heard about the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ(Eph 3)

This myster of His will according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him....

Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.(Eph 4)

Paul wrote of it in breif, but we have to realize that we are looking back at it from a "wrong foundation" , a "tattered and soiled map".

But the longer we read, the more we see- they were looking forward to it from having received, by direct revelation(not through the agency of man) the "whole counsel of God".

Once we begin to see the words from that contextual view- it becomes obvious that this was as fundamental to their understanding of His purpose as ANY PART OF THE GOSPEL. It was woven into "the whole cloth". It was not a separate special revelation. It was part and parcel- the gospel. "Saved" never meant to them what it has meant to us. It wasnt saddled with those limitations and distortions until much later.

It meant , delivered, healed, restored- called out, separated to the will of God and that will- that as joint heirs with Christ we would work together in Him, indeed- we were created in Christ Jesus for good works which He prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them, and that GOOD WORK THAT THE WHOLE CREATION BE SET FREE FROM FUTILITY- hence the whole creation anxiously longs for our "manifestation".

We read and speak as those who must defend and convince and shore up. Our fear causes us to still see certain things as if the map was still soiled and tattered.

They spoke as if it was understood, just "the gospel" with no fear or apology, because they saw it as clearly as the noonday sun.

To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. (Eph 3)

[jugghead]

Also as far as the word "saved" is concerned, which has meant "saved from eternal torment" to most people for well over a millenia, isnt the first-fruits of the harvest, "saved" out of the harvest?

agreed - I have seen our salvation as: "saved" from ignorance (in the mind) and selfish desires (in the heart)

Peter said "Be saved from(apo-out of Strongs 575 "of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken") this perverse generation" in His initial message to the Sanhedrin on Pentecost, the first proclamation of the gospel.(Acts 2:40)

"saved" from the mind and heart of the world (the world personified as this perverse generation)

When we are healed(saved, sozo, -delivered, healed, restored) we are saved "out of Adam" and "born not of the will of man, or the will of the flesh, but of the will of God". We become the children of God, a new generation, a new creature "in Christ"..

So Adam is the personification of the word "harvest"

Along with what Paul says in Romans 8 we begin to see that this was the will of God from the beginning. We are that good and perfect gift, given as the first-fruits of that which is coming to the whole creation, called out to be deliverers, healers, restorers. To me, Romans 8:18-25 and Eph 1:9-14 are the ultimate foundational verses for a comprehensive view of eschatology.

In Christ, the Father made manifest (known) the last Adam and the first Adam - their identities (Spirit/flesh) and the Spirit of God (the Father) moved upon the face (identity) of the waters (last Adam/first Adam)

They spoke as if it was understood, just "the gospel" with no fear or apology, because they saw it as clearly as the noonday sun.

Agreed ..... I heard and felt your passion for this

[eaglesway]

Amen brother :o) !

[marie glen]

Amen! :dsunny: :cloud9:

Just the other morning, during prayer, I was thinking about the New Jerusalem, and also Jerusalem during the millennium (and judgment age?) And was reminded of the School of Tyrannus.. and even earlier how the 200 Christians following the Lord's ascension would meet at the temple porches.. but mostly the School of Tyrannus and how Jesus when He returns, He returns to Jerusalem (Mt of Olives, Zech 14:4) and establishes His kingdom - now outwardly and on the planet! as well as within all those who love Him. And I was thinking about the spirit of Elijah and of John the Baptist.. and an 'end' times Spirit of the LORD, saying "seek the Lord while He may be found" ..make His way straight.." (straighten the path in us for His occupation)..

And of how the prophets, when they prophesied, would say "the Word of the LORD came to me.."

Who will be those servants who will be found of Him feeding the household? (Others will be beating up on others of the household?)

I think it seems king of obvious that our heavenly Father is not one to whiz through things.. The millenium.. the 'day' of the GWT judgment.. and even during New Jerusalem age(?)..

When God is done.. I believe all will be "chosen"/choice.. But truly awesome some will be teachers and counsellors in His Work of getting all there!!

..Great tread! reminds me of these verses - (which I'm sure we all love! :gsmile: )

Micah 4:1
4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Zechariah 8:22
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

Isaiah 2:2
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

[marie glen]

P.S - Paul wrote "one is not a jew/believer/christian! who is one outwardly but whose heart is not right with God, circumcision is of the heart" (romans 2)

And John tells us what it is that is the measure by how he always wrote "little children love each other.."

Who is our neighbor? I believe it's our fellow person. I can't help thinking that ultimately the measure which measures the heart, is love.. "God is love".. does love, true affection, 1st for Him of course, and His Son, then does God (Love) flow through one for one's fellow person? Love is the best teacher? (Previously i've thought experience, but now i'm thinking love is the best teacher!