I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?
I've pondered this a bit, and I'm not sure who it would be except for satan (based on my memory of the context of the scripture - even though I haven't checked it again yet for this post). However, then I've wondered where God "fits in" since I think He's in control. Did He relinquish only parts of that control for a limited time, etc...I don't think I have this one figured out :o
I just looked into the Greek words and I am wondering why the translators chose to write "god" and not "God" when the words are exactly the same and all other instances of the word in Corinthians are referring to God capital G...
Micah are you thinking the "god" of this world is God? Never thought of it before your post but after looking at the Greek I am leaning toward that.
God created vessels for wrath...basically blinding them.
Also the word that is translated "world" is the same that is often translated age AND eternity. It's the one we here at TM think should be age but it's interesting they chose to write "god of this world" and not "eternal God" as they may in another passage.
I may be wrong about all this, I'm not a bible scholar or fluent in Greek, but this post has got me thinking...
2 Cor. 4:4 is the only place I have that says "the god of this world." That seemed strange to me. WHO blinds?
I found this Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
And 2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
My thought is God blinds...... the adversary deceives. I'm throwing all I have dug up, just looking up the word deceive and deceives there are many but I found these two helpful....1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom; The deceived and the deceiver are his.
GodIsLove....I was just going to point that word "world" out thanks
here's an interesting thought i ran across, that indicates satan only has limited/specific "godhood", or more specifically, influence..at least worth considering..
"the Bible never teaches that Satan actually rules over the entire world, but that he is ruler over the current system of sinful opposition to God"
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: jabcat on December 31, 2016, 05:36:27 AM
here's an interesting thought i ran across, that indicates satan only has limited/specific "godhood", or more specifically, influence..at least worth considering..
"the Bible never teaches that Satan actually rules over the entire world, but that he is ruler over the current system of sinful opposition to God"
:Chinscratch:
I agree. satan rules by deceiving and it would seem that the current system is deceived. Man can be deceived. Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive,
if possible, even the chosen."
Those with the mind of Christ will not be deceived (go astray) G4105 planaō to (properly cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue): - go astray, deceive, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way. :2c:
I've wondered the same about these as well:
Joh 12:29 The throng, then, which stands and hears it, said, "A thunderclap has come!Others said, "A messenger has spoken to Him!" Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, "Not because of Me has come this voice, but because of you." Joh 12:31 Now is the judging of this world. Now shall the Chief of this world be cast out. Joh 12:32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself." Joh 12:33 Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying."
I was taught that this was God judging the world and casting out the devil. But now when I read it hits me that it's possible the world is doing the judging of the Chief, refusing his headship, and casting Him out... agreeing with
Mar 12:6 Still one had he, a son, his beloved. He dispatches him also, last, to them, saying that 'They will be respecting my son.'"
Mar 12:7 Yet those farmers say to themselves that 'This is the enjoyer of the allotment. Hither! We should be killing him, and the enjoyment of the allotment will be ours!'"
Mar 12:8 And, taking him, they kill him and cast him outside of the vineyard."
Luk 19:14 Now his citizens hated him, and they dispatch an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us!'"
But there's this too: Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth. It was cast into the earth, and its messengers were cast with it."
So.... Hmmm
AND THIS:
Joh 16:8 Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you. And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judging:"
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;"
Joh 16:10 yet concerning righteousness, seeing that I am going away to My Father, and no longer are you beholding Me;" Joh 16:11 yet concerning judging, seeing that the Chief of this world has been judged." Joh 16:12 Still much have I to say to you, but you are not able to bear it at present."
Satan/devil is the Chief? Maybe I'm not 'able to bear it' even now.
HOW ABOUT THIS:
Joh 14:28 You hear that I said to you, 'I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Joh 14:29 And now I have declared it to you ere it is occurring, that, whenever it may be occurring, you should be believing." Joh 14:30 No longer shall I be speaking much with you, for the Chief of the world is coming, and in Me it has not anything."
The devil/satan is coming? That's what I was taught. But Jesus just said "...I am coming..."
How much of the knowledge of the 'devil/satan that we western believers have actually comes from Scripture, how much from the Babylonian fables? How much Scripture do we have about satan being a 'god' with his own will and kingdom? Little, if any? How much Scripture do we have showing that God has always been in complete control of this world/kosmos and the ages. Huge amount? Have we been fooled about satan/devil in many ways? Probably, since he has deceived the whole world, which likely includes me.
Seems to me that if this is True:
Dan 4:31 While the matter is still in the mouth of the king, a voice falls from the heavens, "To you are they saying, King Nebuchadnezzar: The kingdom passes away from you." Dan 4:32 From mortals are they shoving you, and with the animals of the field is your abode. Herbage will they feed to you, as oxen. Thus seven seasons shall pass on over you till you shall know that the Supreme is in authority in the kingdom of mortals and to whom He is willing He is giving it." [/b]
Dan 4:35 All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing in the army of the heavens and with those abiding on the earth. And no one will actually clap with his hands and say to Him, "What doest Thou?
Then this can't be True:
Luk 4:5 And, leading Him up into a high mountain, the Adversary shows Him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in a second of time." Luk 4:6 And the Adversary said to Him, "To you shall I be giving all this authority and the glory of them, for it has been given up to me, and to whomsoever I may will, I am giving it." It is possible, I suppose, (highly unlikely, in my opinion) that God gave it over to him (feels ridiculous to my thinking, but ?); it is NOT possible that satan gives it to whomever he wills.
It seems pretty clear (to me) that even if things are done here through the agency of the adversary/slanderer/devil/satan, that they are only done as a result of the will and intent of the true Ruler of the creation, Father God Himself. Does He blind people? My fleshly reasoning, my carnal mind says NO. The Scriptures say differently, explicitly, and those Scriptures are not really that hard to understand. Hard to Accept though is another story.
What if He, Father, has decided NOT to save most of mankind during the present evil age, and therefore blinds their minds to the good news temporarily, for a future purpose or judgment? What if He intended to blind the minds of most of the people of Israel so that the Outsiders could get in? Could anyone stay His hand or say "what are you doing?"
Maybe the story of Nebuchadnezzar is an allegory, showing what the powers in the heavenlies have to learn as well as the beasts on the earth, like ME? Maybe the devil/slanderer just believes (fancies) himself to have his own will and kingdom and has deceived mankind into believing such things as well?
One thing for sure (finally, whew! : ) ), the True God will have His waywhen it's all sorted out, and then we'll all know and bow.
My :2c:
Edit: Sorry, no idea how all that got underlined in the last part of the post. The format markers show up as I intended them (I think) but it still underlined all of it. Oh well!
Very good and offered post. Much to study and much to be reconsidered. :dsunny: :2c:
" Maybe the devil/slanderer just believes (fancies) himself to have his own will and kingdom and has deceived mankind into believing such things as well?"
Yes. That seems likely. Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth. Whose to say they were his to give? He is a liar and deciever.
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 01, 2017, 12:59:45 AM
" Maybe the devil/slanderer just believes (fancies) himself to have his own will and kingdom and has deceived mankind into believing such things as well?"
Yes. That seems likely. Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth. Whose to say they were his to give? He is a liar and deciever.
:thumbsup:
Psalm 22 For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations.
2 Chronicles 20:6 "O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you."
Deuteronomy 10: 14 To the Lord your God belong the heavens,even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
Psalm 47:8 God reigns over the nations; God is seated on his holy throne
Roman's 13:1 ...for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
John 19:11 Jesus answered [speaking to Pilate], "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."
Daniel 2:21 he removes kings, and sets up kings...
Daniel 4:17 the Most High has power over human kingdoms. He gives them to whomever he wishes.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 30, 2016, 09:09:28 PM
I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?
I have always thought that the god of this world (age) was Satan. This thread has me thinking if that thought is true. After investigating this further and reading through the posts, I conclude that Satan is the god if this age. Just my opinion.
God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures
According to a definition in biblehub it can refer to any one who can be likened to God and perceived as such.
http://biblehub.com/str/greek/2316.htm
1. a general appellation of deities or divinities
4. Θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way:
In Act 12;22 A man, Herod is likened to a "god". Same word - THEOS.
Act 12:22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon.
Which God gave him by the way.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Joh_12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
I can only conclude that 2 Cor 4:4 is referring to the Adversary.
:2c:
This question bears out the difference between those who can have it only one way, as for example, who brought evil upon Job, was it Satan the Adversary...
Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)
Or was it Elohim...
Then they sympathized with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him.
(Job 42:11)
Perhaps, as Thomas Aquinas writes, this blindness can be explained in more than one way:
124. – The cause of this concealment is not on the part of the Gospel, but on account of their own guilt and malice; and this is what he adds: in their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. This can be explained in three ways: in one way so that the god of this world, i.e. God, who is the Lord of this world and of all things by creation and nature: "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein" (Ps. 24:1), has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, not by producing malice, but by the merit, or rather demerit of preceding sins, by withdrawing his grace: "Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed" (Is. 6:10). Therefore he hints at their preceding sins when he says, of unbelievers, as though their unbelief is the cause of this blindness. In a second way, so that the god of this world, i.e., the devil, who is called the god of this world, i.e., of those who live in a worldly manner, not by reason of creation but by imitation, because worldly persons imitate him: "They follow him that are on his side" (Wis. 2:25, Vulgate). Here he blinds them by suggesting, by attracting and by inclining to sins. And so, when they are already in sin, they work in the darkness of sin, lest they see: "Darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). In the third way thus: God has the nature of the ultimate end and fulfillment of the desires of every creature. Hence, whatever a person assigns to himself as an ultimate end in which his desire rests, can be called his god. Hence, when you have pleasure as end, pleasure is called your god, and the same for pleasures of the flesh and for honors. Then it is explained so that the god of this world, i.e., that which men living in a worldly way set up as their end, say pleasure or riches and the like. And God blinds their minds, inasmuch as he prevents them from seeing the light of grace here, and the light of glory in the future: "Fire", namely of concupiscence, "has fallen on them, and they shall not see the sun" (Ps. 57:9, Vulgate). Thus, therefore, the blindness of unbelievers is not on the part of the Gospel, but from the sin of unbelievers.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 01, 2017, 06:34:30 AM
This question bears out the difference between those who can have it only one way, as for example, who brought evil upon Job, was it Satan the Adversary...
Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)
Or was it Elohim...
Then they sympathized with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him.
(Job 42:11)
Perhaps, as Thomas Aquinas writes, this blindness can be explained in more than one way:
124. – The cause of this concealment is not on the part of the Gospel, but on account of their own guilt and malice; and this is what he adds: in their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. This can be explained in three ways: in one way so that the god of this world, i.e. God, who is the Lord of this world and of all things by creation and nature: "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein" (Ps. 24:1), has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, not by producing malice, but by the merit, or rather demerit of preceding sins, by withdrawing his grace: "Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed" (Is. 6:10). Therefore he hints at their preceding sins when he says, of unbelievers, as though their unbelief is the cause of this blindness. In a second way, so that the god of this world, i.e., the devil, who is called the god of this world, i.e., of those who live in a worldly manner, not by reason of creation but by imitation, because worldly persons imitate him: "They follow him that are on his side" (Wis. 2:25, Vulgate). Here he blinds them by suggesting, by attracting and by inclining to sins. And so, when they are already in sin, they work in the darkness of sin, lest they see: "Darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). In the third way thus: God has the nature of the ultimate end and fulfillment of the desires of every creature. Hence, whatever a person assigns to himself as an ultimate end in which his desire rests, can be called his god. Hence, when you have pleasure as end, pleasure is called your god, and the same for pleasures of the flesh and for honors. Then it is explained so that the god of this world, i.e., that which men living in a worldly way set up as their end, say pleasure or riches and the like. And God blinds their minds, inasmuch as he prevents them from seeing the light of grace here, and the light of glory in the future: "Fire", namely of concupiscence, "has fallen on them, and they shall not see the sun" (Ps. 57:9, Vulgate). Thus, therefore, the blindness of unbelievers is not on the part of the Gospel, but from the sin of unbelievers.
Ronen
"This question bears out the difference between those who can have it only one way, as for example, who brought evil upon Job, was it Satan the Adversary...
Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)"
Who? If I may ask who is speaking here?
Job 2:5 Howbeit,
now put forth your hand and touch his bone and his flesh. He shall assuredly scorn you to your face.Did satan put forth the hand or the Lord?
Quote from: joeteekay on January 01, 2017, 05:07:05 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 30, 2016, 09:09:28 PM
I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?
I have always thought that the god of this world (age) was Satan. This thread has me thinking if that thought is true. After investigating this further and reading through the posts, I conclude that Satan is the god if this age. Just my opinion.
God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures
According to a definition in biblehub it can refer to any one who can be likened to God and perceived as such.
http://biblehub.com/str/greek/2316.htm
1. a general appellation of deities or divinities
4. Θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way:
In Act 12;22 A man, Herod is likened to a "god". Same word - THEOS.
Act 12:22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon. Which God gave him by the way.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Joh_12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
I can only conclude that 2 Cor 4:4 is referring to the Adversary.
:2c:
Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon. Which God gave him by the way.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Yes, God gave the kingdoms of the world, but not the world, just the kingdoms. the devil is a prince and can be accepted as a "god."
Quote from: joeteekay on January 01, 2017, 05:07:05 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 30, 2016, 09:09:28 PM
I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?
I have always thought that the god of this world (age) was Satan. This thread has me thinking if that thought is true. After investigating this further and reading through the posts, I conclude that Satan is the god if this age. Just my opinion.
God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures
According to a definition in biblehub it can refer to any one who can be likened to God and perceived as such.
http://biblehub.com/str/greek/2316.htm
1. a general appellation of deities or divinities
4. Θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way:
In Act 12;22 A man, Herod is likened to a "god". Same word - THEOS.
Act 12:22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon. Which God gave him by the way.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Joh_12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
I can only conclude that 2 Cor 4:4 is referring to the Adversary.
:2c:
In one of my early posts I stated that God blinds, where does it say in the Bible that satan/devil/ adversary blinds? But the Bible clearly states Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf,
or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2017, 08:04:02 AM
Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)"
Who? If I may ask who is speaking here?
The writer of the book.
QuoteJob 2:5 Howbeit, now put forth your hand and touch his bone and his flesh. He shall assuredly scorn you to your face.
Did satan put forth the hand or the Lord?
It is not either/or. I believe it is both. Here we see the adversary telling Elohim to put forth his hand, yet in the next verse Elohim himself says Job is in the adversaries hand:
Hence Yahweh said to the Adversary, Behold him in your hand.
(Job 2:6)
Does the carpenter hammer the nail into the wood, or does the hammer do it? Both do. God is the carpenter, and the hammer is the adversary.
Joe: God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures
This is true. God even called men 'elohim' / theos / gods, meaning magistrates, judges, or rulers.
Psa 82:6 I Myself have said: you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you."
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? "
Joh 10:35 If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled), Joh 10:36 are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that 'You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, 'Son of God am I'?
QuoteDoes the carpenter hammer the nail into the wood, or does the hammer do it? Both do. God is the carpenter, and the hammer is the adversary.
This is pretty much the way I see it too. So if both the carpenter and the hammer are called 'god', I can still know that the nail is not going into the wood without the will and motivation of the carpenter. And from this, I know that Jesus/Yeshua has been the God of gods at least since He rose from the dead:
Eph 1:18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints, Eph 1:19 and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
Eph 1:20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials, Eph 1:21
up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:" Eph 1:22 and subjects
all under His feet, and gives Him, as
Head over all, to the ecclesia" Eph 1:23 which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all."
Looking at the world through my senses, it sure doesn't look like He is the sovereign ruling power over the universe. If I'm deciding based on my own fleshly faculties, I have to conclude that a satan is ruling this age. What a Mess! But he isn't. What a strange Mystery, this crooked serpent that was made to swim about in the sea.
Interesting discussion! I've just been pondering some of this, having just been back through Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, Kings, where God is constantly whacking Judah and Israel for being stubborn and disobedient, blind, deaf. Then this little jewel pops me upside the head:
Deu 29:4 Yet until this day Yahweh has not given to you a heart to realize and eyes to see and ears to hear.
I'm not sure that this is any different from blinding them.
It's like this same paradox:
Joh 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him."
Yet:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day. Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Me."
Yep, His ways are NOT my ways and His thoughts NOT my thoughts.
But, as to the topic of the thread... if someone's got a gun to my head and I'm having to choose who "...THE Theos/god of this age/eon is, I'm going with Jesus, per Ephesians 1:20. But please don't shoot me just yet. : )
I must humbly admit my question is both disturbing and interesting, yet reasonable considering Col.1:16-17. I would seem to me, my opinion, that we have just accepted that the "god" is satan without ever really questioning, and by doing so established in our minds that the devil has quite a bit of control when the enemy is nothing more than a tool.
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 01, 2017, 08:45:05 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2017, 08:04:02 AM
Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)"
Who? If I may ask who is speaking here?
The writer of the book.
QuoteJob 2:5 Howbeit, now put forth your hand and touch his bone and his flesh. He shall assuredly scorn you to your face.
Did satan put forth the hand or the Lord?
It is not either/or. I believe it is both. Here we see the adversary telling Elohim to put forth his hand, yet in the next verse Elohim himself says Job is in the adversaries hand:
Hence Yahweh said to the Adversary, Behold him in your hand.
(Job 2:6)
Does the carpenter hammer the nail into the wood, or does the hammer do it? Both do. God is the carpenter, and the hammer is the adversary.
True, it just seems to me that tradition has it that the adversary was the hammer....power, the ability, the capacity to cause or create the boils and sores without the carpenter.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 01, 2017, 06:20:37 PM
True, it just seems to me that tradition has it that the adversary was the hammer....power, the ability, the capacity to cause or create the boils and sores without the carpenter.
:iagree:
Which is why it is good to think and be willing, as you have, to challenge lovingly, and not simply go along. About 2 years ago or so the idea that 'the god of this world' might not be Satan crossed my mind. Because I had not heard of anyone else advocating such an idea, I kept it to myself. So it is nice to see others seeing similar things.
make the tree good or make the tree evil..............TOL has no death evil in it. tokogae does.........death and life...ALL things are yours. to the forward you show yourself forward..to the merciful..merciful..etc
Paul speaks of seeing Him face to face and being just like Him..and asking Him nothing further. TOKOGAE God kills and God makes alive [law] TOL God is LOVE and makes ALL things[even disobedience and the
partaking of TOKOGAE work to the Good .
I have the translation by Jonathan Mitchell here and it might add some insight to the used words.
Joh12:31 ... now the Ruler (the one invested with power; the leader; the chief; the ruler; or: the Original One; the Beginning One; the Prince) of this System will be ejected outside (or: At this time the Chief of this world of culture, religion and government, the Originator and Controlling Principle of the ordered arrangement and universe, will be thrown out, [to the] outside [of it]).
2Cor4:4 ...within and among which folks the God of this age (or: the God who owns this indefinite time-period; the God Who is in relationship with this eon) blinds (or: deprived of the ability to see) the effects of the intellects and mental powers of those without faith...
In my opinion, the God of this world is our heavenly Father, simply because of the surrounding verses.
In verse 29 some heard thunder, some heard an angel ..... this in itself is an example of who was of the flesh (heard thunder/just noise) and who was of the Spirit (heard an angel/words of God).
If we are of the flesh, God is the adversary (the God of this world) ..... if we are of the Spirit, the flesh (personified) is the adversary ..... and God is still the God of this world since when we are of the Spirit we know He is in full control.
Those of the flesh hear only thunder/noise because the flesh is not subject to the law of God and what is one of His laws, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ..... which part of it is .... ears to hear .... hearing the Spirit/angel
But what precedes thunder .... is it not lighting .... a quickening to the Spirit, sure, there is no mention of lightening, but lightening can take place inside of a cloud without it being seen
then is verse 33 John says that Christ was referring to what death He should die and do we not know that His death is the perfect example of the spirit being separated from the flesh
And do we not see this in Genesis when God said "Let there be light" and then came the separation of the light (i.e. spirit) from the darkness (i.e. flesh)?
an example of spirit and flesh is at the beginning of this explanation (thunder/angel) and an example of spirit and flesh are at the end. both being an example of separation ..... and the purpose of the separation .... to be one with the Father just as Christ is .... and this is His law of reconciliation which we fully understand as good news (The Gospel).
Isaaih 44;22 I have blotted out...as a thick cloud thy transgressions...and as a cloud thy sins..for I have redeemed thee..return unto me.. and every eye shall see Him coming on the clouds of heaven.
...and the Glory of the Lord filled the temple..and no man could enter. surely that great sword[salvation word] that proceeds from
His mouth..circumcises the spirit of man from the sinful flesh.
:2c: meditating on the OT covenant of circumcision....and those born of the will of man vs those born of the will of God...
God is a spirit John 4;24 and those that worship must worship in spirit and truth[spirits of just men made perfect/you must
be perfect as the Father is perfect] GEN 1;26.in His own image He created him[spirit] Ecc 12;7 and the spirit must return
unto God who gave it Hosea 13;14 redeemed from death
Rev 6;9 -11 white robes on the slain[spirits/like the angels..the children of God] Luke 20;37 ALL live unto Him....
Hebrews 12;22...heavenly Jerusalem..the 'spirits' of just men made perfect...we are justified in Christ....
John 12;32...and if I be lifted up..shall draw all men unto me[lower waters rise when the sun shines on them and are drawn up into
clouds.... He causes His face to shine on all men.......causes to pour out His spirit on ALL flesh
Luke 4;18 to set at liberty them that are bruised....the whole creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God /for the creature
was subjected to vanity in the hope that the creature be delivered into the Glorious freedom of the sons of God[bound up all in
disobedience/in order to show mercy unto all] DO I BRING TO BIRTH AND NOT GIVE DELIVERANCE?
.I will put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent
..the serpent bruises his heel..but he shall crush the serpents head[mind/thoughts will intentions]
as we have all bore the image of the corrupt[sin in flesh] so,too shall ALL bear the image of the incorrupt
Ecc 3;14 I know that whatso-ever God doeth..it shall be forever..nothing can be put to it ,nor anything taken from it.....
and God doeth it..that men should fear before Him. we are both fearfully and wonderfully made. The fear of the Lord is
the beginning of wisdom.........perfection in the spirit[LOVE] is the casting out of fear
..the blueness of a wound[bruise heel] scours away the evil therof....and God scourges and chastises all He receives as sons.
we pass through the rent vail of our flesh..and enter into the very presence of Our Father[Holy of Holies] fullness
..with our token of the spirit..at present we go in and out of the Holy city to sup at the Kingdom of heavens tables with Him
until we enter in and never go out.............we can and do get into a 'fleshly man perspective" that is at enmity with the perfection
........adversary's mindset...Isaaih 37;28 But I know thy abode and thy going out and thy coming in..and thy rage against me.
v 35 for I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake. Rev 20;9..and compassed the camp of the saints about,and the
beloved city...and fire come down from God out of heaven devoured them. Fire is Word of God and spirit of God.......and the very
image John saw when he saw Jesus with eyes like fire....... fire tries our building/understanding on faith/chief cornerstone/Christ
..whether they be our understanding in union with Christ/Father or doctrines of men/men's thoughts from the adversary;as in
Peter;s case..and pertain to a kingdom on this earth that the disciple's had hoped for. Jesus said 'NOW my kingdom is not of this earth
or my men would have fought that I NOT be DELIVERED UP.". picking up our cross..but we look forward to a new heaven and a new
earth. Paul said 'but as for what we will be...we shall see Him face to face and be just like Him" I know that when 'gold' that we
buy from Him..is purified in the fire it reflects the face of the purifier's image [REV 3;18] white rainment and eyesalve
feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace..as I ponder this ....fiery.serpents,serpent on a pole[brazen] and His feet
and heels come to mind...and faithful unto the death[of our flesh] comes to mind. surely our flesh must decrease that He may
increase...and it must fall to the earth and die..that we may bear much[fullness] fruit unto heaven.
I too,percieve things like jugghead..I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car
that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY..a wicked generation that perishes
in the wilderness of this world..flesh begets flesh/spirit begets spirit from now on call no man your Father.Araham pictured
Our Father......sand and stars...Ishmael pictured our flesh/earth stage and Isaac our Heavenly/celestial/spirit[promised] free woman
servant/not remain in the household/son remain forever/heir
...some deep stuff ..overwhelming to consider what God has done and is doing..the pattern son..no longer known as a man
" I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY "
I like this.. ^
I think sometimes we read different things into the writing.It is understandable because, we are not sitting in a room with a person having a back and forth conversation leading to understanding.
There are two distinct ways to read "the god of this world."
the greek is "theos tou aion" -the "god of this age".
I see that as the ruler of this age, as opposed to the God of All Ages.
There is God "over the world and the ages"- the adversary is the god who is "of" the world, a ruler and a principality until his place is found no more.
Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.
It could be looked at either way, because a god is not just who is control. It is also who is served and worshipped. He is the god of this age to those who are veiled by unbelief and law- they serve him unknowingly, mostly.
Jesus says in John 2:15
Do not love the world(kosmos) nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Then He turns around and says in John 3
"For God so loved the world(kosmos)...."
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world."
In 2 Corinthians 3 and 4 Paul is speaking of the veil of law and the veil of unbelief and imo "the god of this age" he speaks of is the enemy, but Paul is not ascribing to him "deity" or "sovereignity", but is in the tone of of
"The gods of the nations are idols"(Psalm 96), a metaphorical reference to the adversary as the one who is served by those who are blinded by the veils of unbelief and/or law. He has been given that principality, for a time, times and half a time(so to speak- a limited period)
"God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the "gods""
elohim........ el
6I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.........
68Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations........
:thumbsup: EW
There has been some really good responses. I looked to see where satan/devil has the power or where satan/devil ever has "blinded," perhaps I overlooked where it was done, but I found no verse. I did find as I posted in the beginning Ex.4:11 that the Lord blinds and Jo.12:40 where it reads "He hath blinded...." In my opinion the "He" is the Lord.
It was from this basic search that led me to wonder about 2 2Cor.4:4.
Thank you all very much but without evidence that satan/devil/serpent/old dragon has blinded then I am stuck. There is abundant evidence in verses where the adversary deceives in many ways that's what the enemy does.... deceives, but does not blind.
Diaglott 4 in whom the God of the age this blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, in order that not to see distinctly the illumination of the glad tidings of the glory of the Anointed one, who is an image of the God.
JuliaSmith 4 In whom the God of this world blinded the minds of the unbelieving, so that the enlightening of the good news of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, does not enlighten them.
MSTC 4 in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest should shine unto them the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, which is the image of God.
Wycliffe 4 in which God hath blent the soulis of vnfeithful men of this world, that the liytnyng of the gospel of the glorie of Crist, which is the ymage of God, schyne not.
Matthew Bible 4 in whome the God of thys worlde hath blynded the myndes of them which beleue not, leste the lyght of the gloryous gospell of Christe which is the ymage of God shoulde shyne vnto them.
Quote from: StevenL on January 03, 2017, 08:48:06 AM
" I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY "
I like this.. ^
But originally was "all good" - "and God saw that it was good" - I don't think of it as having to be rescued (saved) from our body or any sort of 'falling into denser or different substance' but is a matter of character.
If the problem here on planet Earth
is earth.. matter. And a case of man having fallen from a higher state into a material body -
"dust thou art" - which knowledge (gnosis) will deliver us from, the scene around us would seem to suggest otherwise. This Earth is glorious! And so is the living machinery we call our bodies. When God visited Earth in Ezekiel chapter two, he arrived on a living platform with living wheels and borne about on living wings.
The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains?
...Is it the wind?Logically, at most, if we are "trapped in a body" that would be a symptom, or an effect, and not a cause.
Why did God bar the way to the tree of life after Adam and Eve had changed? For surely, they did change. In the Genesis chapter two insert account of the creation of Adam and Eve, we are told how Adam was formed of dust, and Eve from his rib, and the two were one.
"Be fruitful and multiply.. dress the trees and keep the garden.. the fruit and herbs shall be for food.."What changed in Adam and Eve? Surely it was something in their thoughts.
Their psyche changed! The serpent had said to them,
surely God was lying.. the one forbidden fruit was surely desired to make one wise. It was not unpleasant to the sight.. looked harmless enough. Indeed, if it was
knowledge to make one wise.. and to be like God..!But what was the change? They hid themselves. If there was a substance change, I believe it was in their clothing. From a raiment of light to fig leaves, and then to animal skins (in which God clothed them). They and the world became imperfect, and death now existed.
And what of the serpent? The one Revelation, chapter twelve calls Satan (adversary) and dragon? Was the issue that he fell into a denser substance?
I think the Pandora's box is thinking ability. If one is a rational creature, one can (sooner or later) make choices. What could possibly be God's motive in letting it run its course?
:Peace2:
Of course, ultimately it is God / Creator who has blinded the minds.. but I figure if we examine all the verses, such as -
John 12:40 (YLT)
40 `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'
Along with -
Rev 12:9 (YLT) -
"..the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world.." Rev 12:9
2 Corinthians 4:4 (YLT) -
"in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God"
This leads me to believe our heavenly Father has engineered things in such a way that this whole unavoidable journey, and lesson - unavoidable if there's to be rationality that is(?) - that it be sped along.. For I figure with thinking ability comes "choice" / the ability of. And I can't help thinking if YHWH had not engineered things just so..
Instead, one rational creature would wander away - from Him/perfection?/life? (His Perfect Will) - at their own time.. another at their own time.. and then later another.. later another.. and another.. virtually taking 'for ever'. But no. I figure HE created the universe and man and woman, not only after the 1st (bound to occur) rebel thought occurred, but aFter it had matured into revolt and sedition. In this way, all are taking this journey/foundation(?) lesson all together at once.. "all in heaven and earth". All learning good and evil at once. (Learning life from death? ..that to wander from Him can only - ever - end in an apocalyptic wisp of self destructive smoke? Which would be each one of our 'destiny' had not God built the rescue in from the beginning/foundation?)
I figure it all comes down to His being a good parent.. A parent can say don't do that, don't go there - because I said so! - or they can teach the child WHY not to do that.. WHY not to go there..
:2c: :Peace2:
"Of course, ultimately it is God / Creator who has blinded the minds.. but I figure if we examine all the verses, such as -
John 12:40 (YLT)
40 `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'
Along with -
Rev 12:9 (YLT) -
"..the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world.." Rev 12:9
2 Corinthians 4:4 (YLT) -
"in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God"
As I posted God blinds and the opponent deceives.
Hi Marie!
Well, for me it's kinda like, since the law couldn't do (by design) what God intends as the final result, because of the weakness of flesh, it had to be replaced. The weakness had to be destroyed and replaced by something not weak.
There nothing evil about the materials making up our bodies. It's not a problem of matter but of weakness. But it is because we are limited in our thinking by the brain of flesh that's in our heads (weak), by the limited span of activity of our bodies (by death, preventing the accumulation of true knowledge), and the weakness inherent in our flesh while living, which WAS THERE by design in Adam and Eve from creation (and it was Good, so was the serpent, which was also there) before Eve ate anything, that our bodies must be replaced. Mortal, corruptible must put on immortal, incorruptible.
Jer 17:9 Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable--who does know it?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?
The law didn't get Israel to righteousness. Our current bodies are not getting us to the end of our Spiritual highway, as Sheila said. Not a one of us are going to make it there in this car. That's why I "liked" it. Just a neat thought put in interesting words (to me.)
You and I are not in agreement on the issue of free-willed, rational creatures so we will always have different views for those things in which that idea is a component. But that's ok. May as well be up front and truthful with one another about it, eh? I loves you anyway! We WILL come into agreement eventually. I'd like to see it while we're still in these bodies, but I'm not holding my breath for that. :) I think these cars are too weak to get us there.
Quote from: StevenL on January 03, 2017, 09:10:15 PM
Hi Marie!
Well, for me it's kinda like, since the law couldn't do (by design) what God intends as the final result, because of the weakness of flesh, it had to be replaced. The weakness had to be destroyed and replaced by something not weak.
There nothing evil about the materials making up our bodies. It's not a problem of matter but of weakness. But it is because we are limited in our thinking by the brain of flesh that's in our heads (weak), by the limited span of activity of our bodies (by death, preventing the accumulation of true knowledge), and the weakness inherent in our flesh while living, which WAS THERE by design in Adam and Eve from creation (and it was Good, so was the serpent, which was also there) before Eve ate anything, that our bodies must be replaced. Mortal, corruptible must put on immortal, incorruptible.
Jer 17:9 Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable--who does know it?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?
The law didn't get Israel to righteousness. Our current bodies are not getting us to the end of our Spiritual highway, as Sheila said. Not a one of us are going to make it there in this car. That's why I "liked" it. Just a neat thought put in interesting words (to me.)
You and I are not in agreement on the issue of free-willed, rational creatures so we will always have different views for those things in which that idea is a component. But that's ok. May as well be up front and truthful with one another about it, eh? I loves you anyway! We WILL come into agreement eventually. I'd like to see it while we're still in these bodies, but I'm not holding my breath for that. :) I think these cars are too weak to get us there.
:iagree: :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on January 03, 2017, 07:40:10 PM
Quote from: StevenL on January 03, 2017, 08:48:06 AM
" I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY "
I like this.. ^
But originally was "all good" - "and God saw that it was good" - I don't think of it as having to be rescued (saved) from our body or any sort of 'falling into denser or different substance' but is a matter of character.
If the problem here on planet Earth is earth.. matter. And a case of man having fallen from a higher state into a material body - "dust thou art" - which knowledge (gnosis) will deliver us from, the scene around us would seem to suggest otherwise. This Earth is glorious! And so is the living machinery we call our bodies. When God visited Earth in Ezekiel chapter two, he arrived on a living platform with living wheels and borne about on living wings.
The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?
Logically, at most, if we are "trapped in a body" that would be a symptom, or an effect, and not a cause.
Why did God bar the way to the tree of life after Adam and Eve had changed? For surely, they did change. In the Genesis chapter two insert account of the creation of Adam and Eve, we are told how Adam was formed of dust, and Eve from his rib, and the two were one. "Be fruitful and multiply.. dress the trees and keep the garden.. the fruit and herbs shall be for food.."
What changed in Adam and Eve? Surely it was something in their thoughts.
Their psyche changed! The serpent had said to them, surely God was lying.. the one forbidden fruit was surely desired to make one wise. It was not unpleasant to the sight.. looked harmless enough. Indeed, if it was knowledge to make one wise.. and to be like God..!
But what was the change? They hid themselves. If there was a substance change, I believe it was in their clothing. From a raiment of light to fig leaves, and then to animal skins (in which God clothed them). They and the world became imperfect, and death now existed.
And what of the serpent? The one Revelation, chapter twelve calls Satan (adversary) and dragon? Was the issue that he fell into a denser substance?
I think the Pandora's box is thinking ability. If one is a rational creature, one can (sooner or later) make choices. What could possibly be God's motive in letting it run its course?
:Peace2:
"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"
Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God. :2c:
That's why He made war horses.
Job 39:19 Do you give to the horse its mastery? Do you clothe its neck with thunder?
Job 39:20 Do you make him quake like the locust? The splendor of his snorting strikes dread.
Job 39:21 He paws in the vale and is elated in his vigor; He goes forth to meet the weapons of battle.
Job 39:22 He makes sport of alarm and is not dismayed; Neither does he turn back because of the sword.
Job 39:23 On him the quiver jubilates, The blaze of spear and scimitar.
Job 39:24 With quaking and thunderous sound, he gulps up the earth, And he cannot believe the sound of the trumpet.
Job 39:25 As soon as the trumpet sounds, he shouts, Aha! And from afar he smells the battle, The thunder of the chiefs and the shouting!"
I think you have to bypass a whole lot of context to come up with God is blinding the eyes of everyone who doesnt believe the gospel in that verse.
"No man comes unto me except te Father draw him".
Is God drawing men or is He blinding them?
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.'b As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'c
God is not a man that He should lie.
If we are to be a lamp upon the Lampstand, and God has set us to me ambassadors and has "entrusted to us the word of reconciliation"- I cant see where 2 Cor 4, which refers to "anyone who has not believed our gospel"- if it were so it becomes a contradiction of a great many scriptures.
Perhaps a theory to justify a hyper Calvinist type position?
Their is an adversary. His job, directed, or created to do it, or fallen in his own dilemma of resolution with the Father- that doesnt matter to me so much, that it is a matter of mystery and paradox in the language of scripture.
Is the "evil one" the author of confusion and the father of lies(Jesus' words not mine) or is God? Is Satan "a murderer from the beginning" or is God?
At the very least, as it appears to me- God set the stage and we are actors in it and we have our roles and within the stage we play them out by His design- and find our resolution within the play- becoming sons of God. Satan's role is "adversary"; "deceiver"; murderer"....etc.
The reading of the verse could be a matter of perspective- a toss up- if it wasnt for all those other verses.
If the roles are reversed, the play makes no sense and becomes and exercise of God within which we are just puppets in a charade, a comedy of errors, a gothic theater of the absurd.
I do think He blinds certain men on purpose..to fulfill His purpose..He even states frankly that He bound all men up in disobedience.
for if they had KNOWN that He was the Lord of Glory they would not have crucified Him....the scriptures must be fulfilled......
and negative roles must be fulfilled in men[Judas/Pharoah/Absalom/Herod/] some men in this life are assigned to play the black/roles
it's like He plays negative chess..moving both white and black pieces at will. I believe there are certain things He desires to happen
to all that have eaten from the tokogae..before He grants access unto the TOL........and then the 'CHANGE"
and ps no,I am not a gnostic and I do not believe that flesh is evil of itself..but do believe it is sucseptible to evil spiritual influence
death and corruption..also that flesh man can be naïve/ignorant/deceived and unstable in all His ways..allowing sin and evil to
master him..instead of him mastering it. the reward for eating of the tokogae as a free will rational being is death not wisdom....
lean not upon our own understanding[I know..easier said than done] wise as a serpent and guilty as one too
the TOL will lead into understanding, wisdom from above, Love and perfection..and has no death in it..but eternal life in the spirit.
But all things are ours..both death[tokogae] and life[Tol] wise as a serpent yet innocent as the dove.
"No man comes unto me except te Father draw him".
"Is God drawing men or is He blinding them?"
Scripturally, He is doing both. These actions are not mutually exclusive. And so far that I've seen in my time and what I can gather from history, it's leaning FAR to the side of Him not drawing the masses to Christ, in this age.
"God is not a man that He should lie."
I've seen no one here hinting that God is lying. ?
"Perhaps a theory to justify a hyper Calvinist type position?"
Since everyone here, as far as I can tell, believes that all will eventually be reconciled to God, I'm not sure this is an appropriate aspersion. I've seen no poster here asserting the predestined damnation to hell of any person. What's this about?
If God so lovd the world that He sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross, What was the purpose of that, if He is at the same time blinding men from seeing it, and why does He ask us to lay down our lives "like sheep led to the slaughter" as Paul said, if He is blinding men from seeing the "light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ".
It is all so ridiculous, if God is asking people to die for a gospel he is blinding men to. This life is not a "passion play" put on for His entertainment. It is real. The adversary is a real adversary. The sins committed in the earth are devastatingly real, and the reckoning for them will be awesome and terrible. We are in a real war- it is no fairy tale. God is not like shifting shadow. His promises are yes and amen in Him because he is the "I AM"- the one truly pure being.
If He exhorts us in the ways He does by the prophets and the apostles and the Savior, throughout the scriptures, while at the same time blinding the people He is urging us to "fill up the cup" of Christ's sufferings for, then truly it is a lie.. I think all this has a masque of spirituality, but imo it is really only intellectual sophistry.
The scriptures can be taken at more face value than that.
I do agree with sheila that he blinds certain men at certain times, as it speaks in various places- but 2 Cor 4 says "IF ANYONE DOES NOT BELIEVE OUR GOSPEL...." It is speaking of the one whose power is devoted to keeping men in darkness, who comes to "steal, kill and destroy"- and it talking of the whole world that is outside of Christ. its really pretty clear, imo.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 07:35:50 PMThank you all very much but without evidence that satan/devil/serpent/old dragon has blinded then I am stuck. There is abundant evidence in verses where the adversary deceives in many ways that's what the enemy does.... deceives, but does not blind.
Perhaps this example from the historical past might shed more light on this"
Then a spirit came forth, stood before Yahweh and said, I myself shall entice him. Yahweh asked him, By what means? He replied, I shall go forth, and I will become a false spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. Then He said, You shall entice, and, moreover, you shall prevail. Go forth and do so. And now behold, Yahweh has given a false spirit into the mouth of all these, your prophets, for Yahweh Himself has decreed evil concerning you.
(1Ki 22:21-23)
A spirit from the host of heaven gathered before God say he will entice Ahab by becoming a false spirit in the mouth of Ahab's prophets.
God gives this false spirit into their mouths, decreeing evil concerning in the process.
Now, bringing this forward to the time that Paul wrote:
What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. And David is saying, Let their table become a trap and a mesh, And a snare and a repayment to them: Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually. I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:7-11)
What I see here is the same thing, where God is the one giving a spirit who causes them not to see and not to hear. The language, at least from the Aramaic compared the Hebrew, is strikingly similar. This is the same callousness that he writes about in 2Co 3, and fleshes out in chapter 4.
God is the ultimate cause, yet the spirit sent is the means.
As to the reason for it all, it is certainly not anything I would have thought up. It,on the surface, sounds foolish to me. Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him? Ah, but it turns out that I am the fool, for it is I who had been blinded and far too narrow in my thinking.
For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)
Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.
All of those examples are specific disciplinary actions. I think it is written, "Because they received not a love of the truth God gave them over to believe a lie."
The "Because" in there is rather important. I definitely believe God uses the adversary to afflict the wicked and to test the righteous.
I definitely do not believe that God is like "The Force"- half good half evil, or like Shiva or Zeus- just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose.
2 Cor 4:4 is speaking of the entire unbelieving world, "anyone who has not believed."
So HE sends Jesus to die for people who cant see it, and leaves them in their blindness because it suits Him, and calls a whole other group of people to suffer and die to tell the other folks that He is blinding. He says that the gospel is "destroying the works of the devil"- but those are really His works- so His language is both arbitrary and hypocritical, like the gods of old.
To me, that God can only exist in a world where you live on TV or enclosed in the anti-septic fantasy of religion- because(imo), people who have seen real evil in the world know better.
I do believe God has shut up all in disobedience, but He is not the one keeping them there. His mercy has been given, We are announcing it. The Lord is working with us.
And that is exactly what the verse says in context.
1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
The words I put in bold describe, not who we are- but who God is in us. Not walking in craftines. Who is crafty? Surely not God.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The way I see it, that is God's pre-disposition towards man. "In all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He puposed in Himself.....the gathering together into one all things in Christ."
Do I believe God is ultimately responsible for evrything? Yep. The inner workings of that may be above my paygrade ....
"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?"
But I am not trying to answer the whole question of good and evil for anybody, including myself. it is a mystery. I prefer it that way.
I just dont think 1 Cor 4:4 is speaking about God, and wouldnt make sense in the context(which begins in in Chptr 3:1) if it did.
"I definitely do not believe that God is like "The Force"- half good half evil, or like Shiva or Zeus- just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose."
I haven't gotten the impression that anyone on TM believes this.
If God blinds, we all know it is only for a season and His purpose.
The thing about Satan blinding is that it gives him/it/whatever a lot of power. How does he/it/whatever have the power to do that to so many people? It seems too supernatural and omnipotent for a mere created tool/fallen being, whatever you think he/it is. Deceiving is different. Another being can deceive me, but another being cannot blind me. Being blind implies an at least temporarily unchanging state until a healing takes place.
If Satan is blinding everyone that's fine too, to me it doesn't matter if the creator or something he created is doing that work, because we know HE has built in the rescue for ALL. These discussions are more thought-exercises for us I think, because in the end it comes down to opinion and what we feel is closest to the truth.
And yeah, life is really horrific. Many of us know first hand of this and from knowledge of history and current events as well. I don't think anyone on here thinks God allows evil for His entertainment, but for a greater good in which evil is somehow necessary, and while we all would like to think we "get it" it really is out of our grasp in this age to understand what the heck is going on :) ...even with some God-given glimpses here and there.
Quote from: StevenL on January 03, 2017, 09:10:15 PM
Hi Marie!
Well, for me it's kinda like, since the law couldn't do (by design) what God intends as the final result, because of the weakness of flesh, it had to be replaced. The weakness had to be destroyed and replaced by something not weak.
There nothing evil about the materials making up our bodies. It's not a problem of matter but of weakness. But it is because we are limited in our thinking by the brain of flesh that's in our heads (weak), by the limited span of activity of our bodies (by death, preventing the accumulation of true knowledge), and the weakness inherent in our flesh while living, which WAS THERE by design in Adam and Eve from creation (and it was Good, so was the serpent, which was also there) before Eve ate anything, that our bodies must be replaced. Mortal, corruptible must put on immortal, incorruptible.
Jer 17:9 Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable--who does know it?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?
The law didn't get Israel to righteousness. Our current bodies are not getting us to the end of our Spiritual highway, as Sheila said. Not a one of us are going to make it there in this car. That's why I "liked" it. Just a neat thought put in interesting words (to me.)
You and I are not in agreement on the issue of free-willed, rational creatures so we will always have different views for those things in which that idea is a component. But that's ok. May as well be up front and truthful with one another about it, eh? I loves you anyway! We WILL come into agreement eventually. I'd like to see it while we're still in these bodies, but I'm not holding my breath for that. :) I think these cars are too weak to get us there.
For the most part, I think you're right. My issue is with the old gnostic thought that the whole problem we (humanity) has to be saved from resulted from a "falling into matter" - I don't believe that. I believe we are saved and rescued from death and
its cause, sin, which is translated from the Greek "missing the mark" which I personally interpret as imperfection (flawed).
I tend to think God is Life itself. And Perfection, so to my way of thinking imperfection is the opposite of life. Of course no one has free will, only the ability to make choices (imo, of course). So I do believe satan chose to rebel.. not all of a sudden, but by thoughts - choice of thought, piling up (progressing to) outright revolt. So I came to think of it being a good question as to why - not a questioning of God's will, but of following a line of logic - why did God choose to create man and woman after that had occurred (thoughts in satan to revolt) as to me, it seems obvious that's what occurred. Of course others may not see that as logic at all.
And as you said, that's alright! I think it's interesting and 'great fun' to discuss these things.. when emotion/anger, etc is not part of the picture. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I'm not sure how much our brains are limited, because they are physical, so much as because they "miss the mark" as to perfection. And I'm not sure how much the Holy Spirit can remedy that. I tend to think of Revelation chapter 7's sealing of God's servants (144,000 of Israel, and? those from all nations, tongues, tribes, which make up a great crowd
unable to number). I tend to think the sealing - to go along with the seal of God upon the heart - the pledge/guarantee/notary stamp of our being His - that the sealing upon the forehead may have something to do with clarity.
Whereas upon the forehead of ($ity?) Babylon is "mystery babylon"/mystery babble? signifying all untruth? - for this "mystery babble-on" is responsible for all slain upon Earth.. And so the opposite of babble or all untruth, would be all clarity(?)
It's a question I have.. during (what I think is) the pause of Seal Six - the split atom as warfare (
but told as a blend of its 1st and its last a 'seal' on the vision, which only the HS can unlock?) - but during this 'pause', occurs the sealing of foreheads..
Perhaps the seal does not guarantee 100% clarity, after all, the seal on the heart does not guarantee 100% purity of heart.. But previously I have hoped it does signify 100% clarity.. A girl can dream... Either way, I agree this 100% clarity will one day be ours (and all's) :cloud9: :Peace2:
..And then the body will truly be one..
many are called..but few are chosen...the deception being so great that if possible..even the chosen would be deceived.........
....there you go. if you examine the scriptures..you will find Our Father chooses a few good men. one or two prophets at a time
a few men for the battle...that it be shown it is by His spirit/power and not flesh strength of men. Of coarse satan calls men
to a false prophet status,many anti-Christ"s etc. ..and the people face the dilemma...who is speaking truth? a twisted version or truth?
nothing new under the sun...satan come twisting the word of God to Eve from the beginning..even unto Jesus in the wilderness
we are not greater than He..............if God allows the adversary to tempt and try us all so what? Jesus is the pattern son......
and satan attempted to tempt and try and crucified Him. a lie can draw out a wicked desire in your heart..and if it is there.....
you will love it..the lie...and not love the truth.if you hear the truth..and reject it..chosing instead something that 'tickles your ears"
{ and many like their ears tickled] if our eternal life depended on all men knowing/understanding perfectly in this life..and walking
it out perfectly..I believe that is exactlywhat God would do. Jesus said...ye will have tribulation in this world[even great trib]
but fear not! for I have overcome the world.
He makes all things new...He said the clay become 'marred" in His hands....and He has authority to make another vessel
of the same lump.This creation is His 'baby" and no-one loves it more than Him. He put eternity in man's heart......Jesus
was in the heart of the earth for 3 days/nights....that's the heart of the son...not servant...that remains in the household.
all mankind is to remain in the household of God . Zion says...'Who bore me these? I was all alone" apparently lost children
come home.....
Great discussion guys! (male and female of course)
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 09:15:33 PM
"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"
Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God. :2c:
hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree..
And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.
It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did.But I believe some are
allowed to descend further downward into the abyss of "choice" possibility.. (My belief, the abyss is "how low can we go? - bottomless! which is part of what we are learning?)
Otherwise I could think God designed and programmed me to specifically do those errors (sins) of my own.. and then they are not really my own. God made me do it.
But James wrote -
1:13 Let no one say, being tempted—'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
3:11 (God as fountain) "doth the fountain out of the same opening pour forth the sweet and the bitter?"
and 4:1 "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires that war in your members?"
Quote from: StevenL on January 03, 2017, 09:24:30 PM
That's why He made war horses.
...but were they war horses "in the beginning".. and were some animals predators from the beginning? Or is it part of "the curse"?
Genesis 1:30 .."and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which [is] breath of life, every green herb [is] for food:' and it is so."
Quote from: eaglesway on January 03, 2017, 11:20:53 PM
Is the "evil one" the author of confusion and the father of lies(Jesus' words not mine) or is God? Is Satan "a murderer from the beginning" or is God?
At the very least, as it appears to me- God set the stage and we are actors in it and we have our roles and within the stage we play them out by His design- and find our resolution within the play- becoming sons of God. Satan's role is "adversary"; "deceiver"; murderer"....etc.
The reading of the verse could be a matter of perspective- a toss up- if it wasnt for all those other verses.
If the roles are reversed, the play makes no sense and becomes and exercise of God within which we are just puppets in a charade, a comedy of errors, a gothic theater of the absurd.
:thumbsup: :iagree:
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 01:41:26 AM
I do think He blinds certain men on purpose..to fulfill His purpose..He even states frankly that He bound all men up in disobedience.
for if they had KNOWN that He was the Lord of Glory they would not have crucified Him....the scriptures must be fulfilled......
and negative roles must be fulfilled in men[Judas/Pharoah/Absalom/Herod/] some men in this life are assigned to play the black/roles
it's like He plays negative chess..moving both white and black pieces at will. I believe there are certain things He desires to happen
to all that have eaten from the tokogae..before He grants access unto the TOL........and then the 'CHANGE"
I (think I) agree with that.. but i see it perhaps more of a "we would all fall to the utter depths of darkness, all of us, eventually, if we had been simply left on our own.. no Great Plan of Salvation :mshock:
(how terrible! and terrifying!)Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 01:41:26 AM
and ps no,I am not a gnostic and I do not believe that flesh is evil of itself..but do believe it is sucseptible to evil spiritual influence
death and corruption..also that flesh man can be naïve/ignorant/deceived and unstable in all His ways..
I agree.. but as an effect, not a cause - which as a cause, is what the gnostics proclaimed.. among other things
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 04, 2017, 11:55:04 AM
Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him?
For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)
Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2017, 01:41:19 PM
All of those examples are specific disciplinary actions.
just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose.
2 Cor 4:4 is speaking of the entire unbelieving world
I do believe God has shut up all in disobedience, but He is not the one keeping them there. His mercy has been given, We are announcing it. The Lord is working with us.
And that is exactly what the verse says in context.
1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
The words I put in bold describe, not who we are- but who God is in us. Not walking in craftines. Who is crafty? Surely not God.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The way I see it, that is God's pre-disposition towards man. "In all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He puposed in Himself.....the gathering together into one all things in Christ."
Do I believe God is ultimately responsible for evrything? Yep. The inner workings of that may be above my paygrade ....
"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?"
But I am not trying to answer the whole question of good and evil for anybody, including myself. it is a mystery. I prefer it that way.
I just dont think 1 Cor 4:4 is speaking about God, and wouldnt make sense in the context(which begins in in Chptr 3:1) if it did.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 04, 2017, 03:51:13 PM
The thing about Satan blinding is that it gives him/it/whatever a lot of power. How does he/it/whatever have the power to do that to so many people? It seems too supernatural and omnipotent for a mere created tool/fallen being, whatever you think he/it is. Deceiving is different. Another being can deceive me, but another being cannot blind me. Being blind implies an at least temporarily unchanging state until a healing takes place.
this made me want to look up the Greek # - for blinded in this verse (2 Cor 4:4) - turns out to be G5186 which includes -
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) to blind, make blind
2) in the NT metaph. to blunt the mental discernment, darken the mind
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G5185; to make blind, that is, (figuratively) to obscure:—blind. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 04, 2017, 03:51:13 PM
If Satan is blinding everyone that's fine too, to me it doesn't matter if the creator or something he created is doing that work, because we know HE has built in the rescue for ALL. These discussions are more thought-exercises for us I think, because in the end it comes down to opinion and what we feel is closest to the truth.
And yeah, life is really horrific. Many of us know first hand of this and from knowledge of history and current events as well. I don't think anyone on here thinks God allows evil for His entertainment, but for a greater good in which evil is somehow necessary, and while we all would like to think we "get it" it really is out of our grasp in this age to understand what the heck is going on :) ...even with some God-given glimpses here and there.
:iagree: but, I think there will come a time when is fulfilled Jesus' words that the HS will lead into all truth, which I think was likely fulfilled in the apostles(?) but now the gospel has been handed down through very many human hands..
I guess I see Satan as having far more experience in all these matters, been working his end for about 6000 years, as compared to each one of our short life span.. (in comparison). I think the world is covered with untruth somewhat like a heavy, wet quilt set low in the atmosphere, covering the earth.. A tapestry Satan has had a lot of time to weave. And I think it does
"obscure, darken the mind, blunt the mental discernment.." Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 07:45:13 PM
many are called..but few are chosen...the deception being so great that if possible..even the chosen would be deceived.........
"if possible even the chosen would be decieved" :faint: You are very right!
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 07:45:13 PM
....there you go. if you examine the scriptures..you will find Our Father chooses a few good men. one or two prophets at a time
a few men for the battle...that it be shown it is by His spirit/power and not flesh strength of men. Of coarse satan calls men
to a false prophet status,many anti-Christ"s etc. ..and the people face the dilemma...who is speaking truth? a twisted version or truth?
nothing new under the sun...satan come twisting the word of God to Eve from the beginning..even unto Jesus in the wilderness
we are not greater than He..............if God allows the adversary to tempt and try us all so what? Jesus is the pattern son......
and satan attempted to tempt and try and crucified Him. a lie can draw out a wicked desire in your heart..and if it is there.....
you will love it..the lie...and not love the truth.if you hear the truth..and reject it..chosing instead something that 'tickles your ears"
{ and many like their ears tickled] if our eternal life depended on all men knowing/understanding perfectly in this life..and walking
it out perfectly..I believe that is exactlywhat God would do. Jesus said...ye will have tribulation in this world[even great trib]
but fear not! for I have overcome the world.
He makes all things new...He said the clay become 'marred" in His hands....and He has authority to make another vessel
of the same lump.This creation is His 'baby" and no-one loves it more than Him. He put eternity in man's heart......Jesus
was in the heart of the earth for 3 days/nights....that's the heart of the son...not servant...that remains in the household.
all mankind is to remain in the household of God . Zion says...'Who bore me these? I was all alone" apparently lost children
come home.....
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Before we came into being..He knew what we would do...He prophesied of Cyrus before he was born. ONLY the CREATOR of
the Creation has this foreknowledge. Evidently He plans ahead....Jesus said 'In my Father's house are many dwelling places"
and 'I go to prepare a place for you" He's prepared a whole new kingdom..a whole new earth.
it is an overwhelming thought that God has foreknew this whole creation..down to the individual life of every man. But He's been
around for a long long time...and had a long long time to plan ahead...He's counted the cost ahead of time..and has the ability
to bring it all to fruitfulness..........and it is not brought about by the will and planning of men..but of God....
He's got this!!!
Quote from: marie glen on January 04, 2017, 08:05:28 PM
Great discussion guys! (male and female of course)
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 09:15:33 PM
"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"
Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God. :2c:
hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree.. And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.
It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did.
But I believe some are allowed to descend further downward into the abyss of "choice" possibility.. (My belief, the abyss is "how low can we go? - bottomless! which is part of what we are learning?)
Otherwise I could think God designed and programmed me to specifically do those errors (sins) of my own.. and then they are not really my own. God made me do it.
But James wrote -
1:13 Let no one say, being tempted—'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
3:11 (God as fountain) "doth the fountain out of the same opening pour forth the sweet and the bitter?"
and 4:1 "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires that war in your members?"
Quote from: StevenL on January 03, 2017, 09:24:30 PM
That's why He made war horses.
...but were they war horses "in the beginning".. and were some animals predators from the beginning? Or is it part of "the curse"?
Genesis 1:30 .."and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which [is] breath of life, every green herb [is] for food:' and it is so."
Quote from: eaglesway on January 03, 2017, 11:20:53 PM
Is the "evil one" the author of confusion and the father of lies(Jesus' words not mine) or is God? Is Satan "a murderer from the beginning" or is God?
At the very least, as it appears to me- God set the stage and we are actors in it and we have our roles and within the stage we play them out by His design- and find our resolution within the play- becoming sons of God. Satan's role is "adversary"; "deceiver"; murderer"....etc.
The reading of the verse could be a matter of perspective- a toss up- if it wasnt for all those other verses.
If the roles are reversed, the play makes no sense and becomes and exercise of God within which we are just puppets in a charade, a comedy of errors, a gothic theater of the absurd.
:thumbsup: :iagree:
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 01:41:26 AM
I do think He blinds certain men on purpose..to fulfill His purpose..He even states frankly that He bound all men up in disobedience.
for if they had KNOWN that He was the Lord of Glory they would not have crucified Him....the scriptures must be fulfilled......
and negative roles must be fulfilled in men[Judas/Pharoah/Absalom/Herod/] some men in this life are assigned to play the black/roles
it's like He plays negative chess..moving both white and black pieces at will. I believe there are certain things He desires to happen
to all that have eaten from the tokogae..before He grants access unto the TOL........and then the 'CHANGE"
I (think I) agree with that.. but i see it perhaps more of a "we would all fall to the utter depths of darkness, all of us, eventually, if we had been simply left on our own.. no Great Plan of Salvation :mshock: (how terrible! and terrifying!)
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 01:41:26 AM
and ps no,I am not a gnostic and I do not believe that flesh is evil of itself..but do believe it is sucseptible to evil spiritual influence
death and corruption..also that flesh man can be naïve/ignorant/deceived and unstable in all His ways..
I agree.. but as an effect, not a cause - which as a cause, is what the gnostics proclaimed.. among other things
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 04, 2017, 11:55:04 AM
Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him?
For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)
Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 04, 2017, 01:41:19 PM
All of those examples are specific disciplinary actions.
just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose.
2 Cor 4:4 is speaking of the entire unbelieving world
I do believe God has shut up all in disobedience, but He is not the one keeping them there. His mercy has been given, We are announcing it. The Lord is working with us.
And that is exactly what the verse says in context.
1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
The words I put in bold describe, not who we are- but who God is in us. Not walking in craftines. Who is crafty? Surely not God.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The way I see it, that is God's pre-disposition towards man. "In all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He puposed in Himself.....the gathering together into one all things in Christ."
Do I believe God is ultimately responsible for evrything? Yep. The inner workings of that may be above my paygrade ....
"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?"
But I am not trying to answer the whole question of good and evil for anybody, including myself. it is a mystery. I prefer it that way.
I just dont think 1 Cor 4:4 is speaking about God, and wouldnt make sense in the context(which begins in in Chptr 3:1) if it did.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 04, 2017, 03:51:13 PM
The thing about Satan blinding is that it gives him/it/whatever a lot of power. How does he/it/whatever have the power to do that to so many people? It seems too supernatural and omnipotent for a mere created tool/fallen being, whatever you think he/it is. Deceiving is different. Another being can deceive me, but another being cannot blind me. Being blind implies an at least temporarily unchanging state until a healing takes place.
this made me want to look up the Greek # - for blinded in this verse (2 Cor 4:4) - turns out to be G5186 which includes -
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) to blind, make blind
2) in the NT metaph. to blunt the mental discernment, darken the mind
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G5185; to make blind, that is, (figuratively) to obscure:—blind.
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: GodIsLove on January 04, 2017, 03:51:13 PM
If Satan is blinding everyone that's fine too, to me it doesn't matter if the creator or something he created is doing that work, because we know HE has built in the rescue for ALL. These discussions are more thought-exercises for us I think, because in the end it comes down to opinion and what we feel is closest to the truth.
And yeah, life is really horrific. Many of us know first hand of this and from knowledge of history and current events as well. I don't think anyone on here thinks God allows evil for His entertainment, but for a greater good in which evil is somehow necessary, and while we all would like to think we "get it" it really is out of our grasp in this age to understand what the heck is going on :) ...even with some God-given glimpses here and there.
:iagree: but, I think there will come a time when is fulfilled Jesus' words that the HS will lead into all truth, which I think was likely fulfilled in the apostles(?) but now the gospel has been handed down through very many human hands..
I guess I see Satan as having far more experience in all these matters, been working his end for about 6000 years, as compared to each one of our short life span.. (in comparison). I think the world is covered with untruth somewhat like a heavy, wet quilt set low in the atmosphere, covering the earth.. A tapestry Satan has had a lot of time to weave. And I think it does "obscure, darken the mind, blunt the mental discernment.."
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 07:45:13 PM
many are called..but few are chosen...the deception being so great that if possible..even the chosen would be deceived.........
"if possible even the chosen would be decieved" :faint: You are very right!
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2017, 07:45:13 PM
....there you go. if you examine the scriptures..you will find Our Father chooses a few good men. one or two prophets at a time
a few men for the battle...that it be shown it is by His spirit/power and not flesh strength of men. Of coarse satan calls men
to a false prophet status,many anti-Christ"s etc. ..and the people face the dilemma...who is speaking truth? a twisted version or truth?
nothing new under the sun...satan come twisting the word of God to Eve from the beginning..even unto Jesus in the wilderness
we are not greater than He..............if God allows the adversary to tempt and try us all so what? Jesus is the pattern son......
and satan attempted to tempt and try and crucified Him. a lie can draw out a wicked desire in your heart..and if it is there.....
you will love it..the lie...and not love the truth.if you hear the truth..and reject it..chosing instead something that 'tickles your ears"
{ and many like their ears tickled] if our eternal life depended on all men knowing/understanding perfectly in this life..and walking
it out perfectly..I believe that is exactlywhat God would do. Jesus said...ye will have tribulation in this world[even great trib]
but fear not! for I have overcome the world.
He makes all things new...He said the clay become 'marred" in His hands....and He has authority to make another vessel
of the same lump.This creation is His 'baby" and no-one loves it more than Him. He put eternity in man's heart......Jesus
was in the heart of the earth for 3 days/nights....that's the heart of the son...not servant...that remains in the household.
all mankind is to remain in the household of God . Zion says...'Who bore me these? I was all alone" apparently lost children
come home.....
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 09:15:33 PM
"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"
Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God. :2c:
hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree.. And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.
Incredible. Now angels make choices :Chinscratch:
It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did."
No, I have never said anything of the kind. What I have said and still say that the Lord God is the "cause" for all things and should He not be the cause for all things then He is not the God I can follow. Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. :Peace2:
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 04, 2017, 11:55:04 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 07:35:50 PMThank you all very much but without evidence that satan/devil/serpent/old dragon has blinded then I am stuck. There is abundant evidence in verses where the adversary deceives in many ways that's what the enemy does.... deceives, but does not blind.
Perhaps this example from the historical past might shed more light on this"
Then a spirit came forth, stood before Yahweh and said, I myself shall entice him. Yahweh asked him, By what means? He replied, I shall go forth, and I will become a false spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. Then He said, You shall entice, and, moreover, you shall prevail. Go forth and do so. And now behold, Yahweh has given a false spirit into the mouth of all these, your prophets, for Yahweh Himself has decreed evil concerning you.
(1Ki 22:21-23)
A spirit from the host of heaven gathered before God say he will entice Ahab by becoming a false spirit in the mouth of Ahab's prophets.
God gives this false spirit into their mouths, decreeing evil concerning in the process.
Now, bringing this forward to the time that Paul wrote:
What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. And David is saying, Let their table become a trap and a mesh, And a snare and a repayment to them: Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually. I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:7-11)
What I see here is the same thing, where God is the one giving a spirit who causes them not to see and not to hear. The language, at least from the Aramaic compared the Hebrew, is strikingly similar. This is the same callousness that he writes about in 2Co 3, and fleshes out in chapter 4.
God is the ultimate cause, yet the spirit sent is the means.
As to the reason for it all, it is certainly not anything I would have thought up. It,on the surface, sounds foolish to me. Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him? Ah, but it turns out that I am the fool, for it is I who had been blinded and far too narrow in my thinking.
For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)
Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.
:dsunny:
I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right
:thumbsup: me too!
Quote from: jugghead on January 05, 2017, 02:31:53 AM
I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right
Both of those are polar extremes of view to me. One view- "left on my own with no strings" :o)
Of course, no one wants to be there.
The other view "a puppet". Really, I dont want to be there either but...
I guess I would rather be the puppet also
if those were the only two realities. But they arent.
God does not always "tell us what to do". He is not raising puppets, He is discipling sons and daughter to reign over the inheritance with Christ as stewards in the Fathers house.
So some times He tells us what to do, sometimes He leaves us to decide. To experience the consequences of good choices or ill, to learn and "prove what is that good, perfect and acceptable will of God."
And as any good Father raising children to adutlhood, He is always intimately involved. Like a Potter, His hands are always there in the formation of the vessel.
The model of freedom is not as unscriptural as some would paint it, and it is not freedom as in "anarchy" or "total self determination".
It is about rearing children.
In the parable of the prodigal, the Father operates in the model of freedom. He allows the son to take his inheritance and squander it. When the son returns, having learned the lesson, the Father received Him with joy. Some of us must learn as the prodigal. Some only need learn by a verbal reproof from the Father- like tho olde brother.
If the parable is not a metaphor about how God deals with us, I really dont know what else it could be.
But neither extreme view of Calvism or Aminianism realisticly addresses it- and that why there is SO much division over it.
I have said this before and I will say it again, whenever there are two polarizing extremes over theological questions, they are usually two sides of one coin, and the truth that binds them together is a little further down the road BEYOND either view. In this case I think the truth that unbinds this seeming paradox is the Fatherhood of God, who is always watching over His children, to protect them, to guide them- and He is not afraid to let them make a mistake so they can learn and grow either- and He doesnt "make them make their mistakes". They would never grow. But He does make sure that he acheives the desired end, whether we are wise and listen to His voice, or foolish and have to break up on the rocks a few times before we embrace His ways. Walking in His ways is the ultimate freedom.
I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, some cannot abide the Father's discipline and oversight- some cannot handle stewardship and freedom.
No worries.... plan B will catch them all, no matter where they fall, God has predestined it. ;o)
Amen! And isn't it just so very blessed to know that..!? :cloud9:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 06, 2017, 02:32:26 PM
Quote from: jugghead on January 05, 2017, 02:31:53 AM
I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right
Both of those are polar extremes of view to me. One view- "left on my own with no strings" :o)
Of course, no one wants to be there.
The other view "a puppet". Really, I dont want to be there either but...
I guess I would rather be the puppet also if those were the only two realities. But they arent.
God does not always "tell us what to do". He is not raising puppets, He is discipling sons and daughter to reign over the inheritance with Christ as stewards in the Fathers house.
So some times He tells us what to do, sometimes He leaves us to decide. To experience the consequences of good choices or ill, to learn and "prove what is that good, perfect and acceptable will of God."
And as any good Father raising children to adutlhood, He is always intimately involved. Like a Potter, His hands are always there in the formation of the vessel.
The model of freedom is not as unscriptural as some would paint it, and it is not freedom as in "anarchy" or "total self determination".
It is about rearing children.
In the parable of the prodigal, the Father operates in the model of freedom. He allows the son to take his inheritance and squander it. When the son returns, having learned the lesson, the Father received Him with joy. Some of us must learn as the prodigal. Some only need learn by a verbal reproof from the Father- like tho olde brother.
If the parable is not a metaphor about how God deals with us, I really dont know what else it could be.
But neither extreme view of Calvism or Aminianism realisticly addresses it- and that why there is SO much division over it.
I have said this before and I will say it again, whenever there are two polarizing extremes over theological questions, they are usually two sides of one coin, and the truth that binds them together is a little further down the road BEYOND either view. In this case I think the truth that unbinds this seeming paradox is the Fatherhood of God, who is always watching over His children, to protect them, to guide them- and He is not afraid to let them make a mistake so they can learn and grow either- and He doesnt "make them make their mistakes". They would never grow. But He does make sure that he acheives the desired end, whether we are wise and listen to His voice, or foolish and have to break up on the rocks a few times before we embrace His ways. Walking in His ways is the ultimate freedom.
I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, some cannot abide the Father's discipline and oversight- some cannot handle stewardship and freedom.
No worries.... plan B will catch them all, no matter where they fall, God has predestined it. ;o)
May I ask from your statement, "I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, ..."
Do you consider the "many" to be all? I do, from this statement by Paul Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Just curious......thanks
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 03, 2017, 09:15:33 PM
Quote
"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"
Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God. :2c:
hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree.. And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.
Incredible. Now angels make choices :Chinscratch:
It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did."
No, I have never said anything of the kind. What I have said and still say that the Lord God is the "cause" for all things and should He not be the cause for all things then He is not the God I can follow. Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. :Peace2:
I don't get the difference, Micah.. don't you think God is engineer? If we look around us what do we see? Even one of the biggest (most glaring issue) is called "choice"... Either we are thinking rational creatures, with the ability to make choices.. or we are.. what? :dunno:
It was the literal serpent which now crawls and is called a snake which deceived / tricked Eve? "Angels which left their first place.." Where did they go? How did they leave?
:dontknow: sorry, I just don't understand what your idea is.. If He didn't 'program' hitler and the like to do just as they did.. how did they do it?
I do think God is in
full control.. I believe "how low can one go?" is a bottomless pit. This pertaining to
every rational creature not (yet) "sealed" into God's will.. And that He chooses who goes to what depths in their wandering years..
Why do they wander? Because it is His will. He engineered it to be thus.. Isn't this life the example which is and will
prove God right in all things?I'm baffled.. :dontknow: :laughing7: :Peace2: :girlheart:
God bless!
Nothing I could say that would explain your dilemma. I mean no offence :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 06, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 06, 2017, 02:32:26 PM
Quote from: jugghead on January 05, 2017, 02:31:53 AM
I would rather be a puppet in the hands of the Father than to be left on my own with no strings attached ..... He decides what I am to do ..... I just agree with it and do it ..... whether I understand it or not ..... having faith in "Father knows best" ..... the end result will always show Him to be right
Both of those are polar extremes of view to me. One view- "left on my own with no strings" :o)
Of course, no one wants to be there.
The other view "a puppet". Really, I dont want to be there either but...
I guess I would rather be the puppet also if those were the only two realities. But they arent.
God does not always "tell us what to do". He is not raising puppets, He is discipling sons and daughter to reign over the inheritance with Christ as stewards in the Fathers house.
So some times He tells us what to do, sometimes He leaves us to decide. To experience the consequences of good choices or ill, to learn and "prove what is that good, perfect and acceptable will of God."
And as any good Father raising children to adutlhood, He is always intimately involved. Like a Potter, His hands are always there in the formation of the vessel.
The model of freedom is not as unscriptural as some would paint it, and it is not freedom as in "anarchy" or "total self determination".
It is about rearing children.
In the parable of the prodigal, the Father operates in the model of freedom. He allows the son to take his inheritance and squander it. When the son returns, having learned the lesson, the Father received Him with joy. Some of us must learn as the prodigal. Some only need learn by a verbal reproof from the Father- like tho olde brother.
If the parable is not a metaphor about how God deals with us, I really dont know what else it could be.
But neither extreme view of Calvism or Aminianism realisticly addresses it- and that why there is SO much division over it.
I have said this before and I will say it again, whenever there are two polarizing extremes over theological questions, they are usually two sides of one coin, and the truth that binds them together is a little further down the road BEYOND either view. In this case I think the truth that unbinds this seeming paradox is the Fatherhood of God, who is always watching over His children, to protect them, to guide them- and He is not afraid to let them make a mistake so they can learn and grow either- and He doesnt "make them make their mistakes". They would never grow. But He does make sure that he acheives the desired end, whether we are wise and listen to His voice, or foolish and have to break up on the rocks a few times before we embrace His ways. Walking in His ways is the ultimate freedom.
I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, some cannot abide the Father's discipline and oversight- some cannot handle stewardship and freedom.
No worries.... plan B will catch them all, no matter where they fall, God has predestined it. ;o)
May I ask from your statement, "I do believe we are fore ordained, forknown, elect and chosen- but many are called, ..."
Do you consider the "many" to be all? I do, from this statement by Paul Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Just curious......thanks
Good points EW and yes, I would agree that they are to extremes and two sides of the same coin, and as per your beliefs I would also agree since we may look at the two sides of the coin but most don't even think about what it is made of and how it became a coin with two sides ..... of which, the potter's vessel also has two sides, an inside and an outside .... and again what is the vessel made of and who made it? In short, I agree they are not the only options.
And with the statement micah brought up, may I also ask a question, does God call and then not choose them? and if not, why were they called in the first place just to be turned away? That's like calling them to a dinner and then not choosing them to eat. I myself still think about this.
I too believe (like micah) that the word "many" is all, and the only thing that makes sense to me in what I just said is, many are called but few choose (not few are chosen). Still meditating on this.
in the parable of the wedding feast..and those not clothed in a wedding garment..but strange apparel...the strange apparel is the
demonic doctrines and doctrines of men that cause them to leave the feast of Love.they are in the habit of feeding only themselves...
that is what causes them to get 'thrown out" Jesus accepts all that come to Him. the anti-Christ spirit in their own mind tells them
to get up and leave and reject it. filthy rags of self-righteousness/just like Joshua was before his change of garments..as a
branch plucked out of the fire..with satan resisting the change..til the Lord rebuke him. :2c:
"many are called but few choose (not few are chosen). Still meditating on this."...
I never thought of that possibility.. I know I've read a translation, "many are called but few are choice" -- webster's = choice, select, the best of its kind or class :dunno:
Interesting..
QuoteAnd with the statement micah brought up, may I also ask a question, does God call and then not choose them? and if not, why were they called in the first place just to be turned away? That's like calling them to a dinner and then not choosing them to eat. I myself still think about this.]And with the statement micah brought up, may I also ask a question, does God call and then not choose them? and if not, why were they called in the first place just to be turned away? That's like calling them to a dinner and then not choosing them to eat. I myself still think about this.
The "call" Jesus was speaking of here, imo, was the opportunity to become participants in the restoration of all things. That is the inheritance of the saints in the light. That is not something anyone who is an adversary still at the end of this life will be a part of. We are a chosen generation, who believe in this life. Joint heirs with Christ.
But I am not sure that I can answer the question about calling and choosing satisfactorily, even for myself, and I really believe God has left it a little fuzzy on purpose. I don't claim to know where the line between God's hand and our space to learn and grow as children and stewards is, or where the line between calling and choosing is.
What I do say is, no one in the extremes of either view has presented me with a model that includes all of the scriptures- so I believe the truth is deeper in- further on.
Man likes emphatic statements with clear logic lines that run out from his premise and pierce every dilemma and paradox with the same sword. That's how we get systematic theology where folks develop complex theories and dispensations in order to explain away verses that don't fit their model.
I believe many are called but few are chosen, because many choose not to heed the call and God allows them to refuse. That does not mean God is not in control, it means He makes allowances for the purpose of teaching and forming vessels.
Did God choose, for the rich young ruler to choose, not to forsake all and follow Jesus? Personally I think not. He was called, but he was not chosen
because he would not choose to leave all and follow as a disciple of Christ. I believe God allowed that. I dont believe God "made it happen". The rich young ruler cycled back to plan B, whatever that was for him- God did not forsake him, but he was left behind in terms of the glorious opportunity he was offered.
"Multitudes, Multitudes in the Valley of Decision. There the Day of the Lord will soon arrive". (Joel 3:14)
As I see it, mortal life is the valley of decision, the threshing floor where God gathers the wheat. The tares are bundled and burned for plan B. The wheat is threshed upon the threshing floor, beaten, blown, broken and separated from its worthless inedible outer husk- and then gathered and used to give bread of heaven without money.
The Tares(empty heads, fruitless branches) are gathered and burned. Grapes are trampled in the winepress of the wrath of God "outside the gates" - the metaphorical winepress of His dealings with adversaries and hypocrites. The metaphorical fire of Gehenna- also "outside the gates", where dead flesh is consumed and garbage works disposed of.....
God has given us metaphors and parables because the nuances and depths of the truths concerning such things as these cannot be contained in systems of theology, where men reduce wisdom to knowledge, because knowledge is easier than wisdom.
"but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;"
"I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world."
"Inside the gates" are those who have already said in their hearts, "One thing I have asked from the Lord, that shall I also seek, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the day of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord and to meditate in His temple."
"Outdie the gates", in the winepress, as on the threshing floor, the husk is separated, the juice is poured off and allowed to settle, then it is poured off again, settled and poured until it is pure, drinkable.
"Moab has been at ease since his youth; He has also been at ease, like wine on its dregs, And he has not been emptied from vessel to vessel, Nor has he gone into exile. Therefore he retains his flavor, And his aroma has not changed. 12"Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will send to him those who tip vessels, and they will tip him over, and they will empty his vessels and shatter his jars.
God has given us all these metaphors and parables to show us who He is, who we are, and how He deals with us.
That leads me to believe we are in an "interaction" with God- not a "unilateral" action by YHWH. I think He would be bored to tears by that because He seeks fellowship, not servitude.
I don't think God wants to control everything and that is not His purpose, His way or His method. He leads, He teaches, He forms, He creates, He intricately works with each vessel, and I believe He has a predestined will for each vessel - but I think the vessel has some say in whether it gets to that destination via plan A, B, C or D.
I believe God has predestined the sum of all things for the kosmos. I think He has foreordained the resolution of all futility. Part of that resolution is our becoming the children of God, a first fruits of the harvest, appointed to assist in "whole harvest". God has predestined that eventually the light will overwhelm the darkness in each and all. He selects servants to advance His will and invests them with great callings and missions because people are the tools of His trade and His trade is restoring the whole creation, that is what the rich young ruler was offered- participation in the greatest calling ever.
So every soul passes through "tohu and bohu" within the threshing floor of mortal life, never finding resolution to their own chaos and futility until they hear that voice "Let there be light" and the veil is rent for them and they see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
"We all with unveiled face, beholding in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory".... then a few verses further on, "For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
And that is my short, unsatisfactory overview of something about which I am perfectly willing to say, "I do not fully understand this particular paradox, and I don't think anyone else does either" :o)
I issue no teachings as edicts. I accept no edicts from others. And I understand that we are not following a straight line, we are climbing a mountain. As we near the pinnacle, the distance between our understandings will grow less and less. I think in the meantime we need to be careful how we apply our three dimensional reasonings to 5 dimensional realities and remain humble in our points of view.
I think Abraham is the prototype because he was the friend of God, and I think that is what God is making- a universe of friends.
I believe we are all called....all God's children have a divine purpose here, and God calls us all to a life of transformation; of giving Him Glory; of using all of our talents; of giving our life, second by second to Him. Paul was called, fell off of his horse and was blinded. I don't believe it is usually that outwardly dramatic, but, it definitely can be.
When do we pass the threshold of being called and then being chosen.....how much grace do we accept to follow our call? Is there a line drawn, or does the road just take more turns and twists or become a bit longer. I don't know.
I agree with EW when he says it is a climb up the mountain. I also agree we can choose A,B,C or D.....or more choices, perhaps.
I love the verse in the Bible that says.....and Noah walked with the Lord.
It is a step by step walk, each and every day.
He must be an ever present companion. We need the Holy Spirit to guide us. And, everyday, we need to leave the world more behind us, and see His Kingdom more and more on the horizon.
We need our full armor each day, as well. We must forsake the things in this world and yearn for the things of God.
And, yes, it is a process we probably know much less about than we would imagine.
D.
Quote from: sheila on January 07, 2017, 01:24:51 AM
in the parable of the wedding feast..and those not clothed in a wedding garment..but strange apparel...the strange apparel is the
demonic doctrines and doctrines of men that cause them to leave the feast of Love.they are in the habit of feeding only themselves...
that is what causes them to get 'thrown out" Jesus accepts all that come to Him. the anti-Christ spirit in their own mind tells them
to get up and leave and reject it. filthy rags of self-righteousness/just like Joshua was before his change of garments..as a
branch plucked out of the fire..with satan resisting the change..til the Lord rebuke him. :2c:
The wedding feast and the strange apparel is the first thing that crossed my mind also, and as I was thinking about this last night and today ..... what else came to my mind was, if we are sons, being transformed into His image, the only choice we have is to say what Christ said "Not my will, but your will be done" ...... we take up our cross daily, follow Him and die to self for that is His will.
and to EW, thank you for this: "the opportunity to become participants in the restoration of all things."
I already knew this ...... but with your repeating it, it hit me like a brick, :eek: and fell into place as part of my foundation. Or in other words, a seed that fell on good soil and immediately grew into a tree of life that bears the fruit of thankfulness. :dsunny:
To become participents is the privilege we are given :banana:
AMEN brother :thumbsup:
Amen jugghead!
This is something I recently posted on another forum in response to(imo) a rigid dispensationalalist, to the end that the details of our takes on the dispensations do not matter to the final resolution:
"Yes I see what you are saying in principle. As far as celestials(A. E. Knoch's term for the glorified children of God) are concerned.... Jesus is the protypical celestial. He is returning to earth and bringing heaven with Him. All of creation is travailing in birth pangs for the celestials to be revealed(if one wants to put it that way) and set the whole creation free from futility, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Post judgement, in the age following, or there abouts- all will undergo the restoration to celestial being- which is our glorious liberty. We already have the seed of it wthin us, having been given birth in it(as the children of God) by the emplanting of the incorruptible seed, which is Christ in us. Eventually all will be gathered into celestial being- using Knochs term for it, because God will be all in all. And we shall be the implements of that. Of being raised in celestial bodies Paul spoke in some detail that there will be a diversity of glories, such as the variety of the glories of stars, super novas, comets and various heavenly bodies, and the new heavens and the new earth will be, imo- celestial in nature- "Behold, I am making all things new". That newness is the celestial being of Jesus Christ- and being conformed to His image who is "the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of His nature". If any man be in Christ Jesus, he is a new creation.
So in the dispensation of the fulness of times, God is gathering all things into one in Christ(whether things in heaven or things in earth), and as Paul said, the branches that were cut off the one olive tree will be grafted in again, "Therefore all Israel will be saved". Already, among us, "the one new man", there is no difference, because the partition is taken down in Christ- as Paul said again, "For to this day when Moses is read, for them the veil remains, but we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, with ever-increasing glory(from glory to glory), by the Spirit, who is the Lord."
Whenever the veil is taken away for them, in this age or the next, they will also be transformed in that same image for they will behold Him as He is.
"Brothers and sisters, we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
Anyone who sees Him as He is will be transformed into that image, that new creation in Christ, each in their own order, according to the individual glory that God will give each one, through the dispensation of the fulness of times- no matter what differences we may see concerning the details of that administration.
We are learning that principle now hopefully-
"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.Ro 12:1-3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
Paul is essientially speaking of humility there, as that is the "acceptable offering" (a broken and a contrite heart You will never cast out) and proves what is good, acceptable and perfect- as James also expressed in differnet temrs in in James 3:13-18
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies into conformity with His glorious body." (Phil 3:21)
"Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the holy prophets since ancient times."(Acts 3)
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. Heb 1:1-3
He is heir of all things, and anyone who is in Him is a joint heir, a son or daughter born not by the will of man or the will of the flesh, but of God. The inheritance is over(and under as serving reconciliation and restoration) the entire creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col.1:15-20
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God Ro 8:18-21
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
This glory is that of the celestial, and it wiil "swallow up" all that is stuck in futility (death, chaos, sin, tohu and bohu)- until all is glorified, all is celestial, first in us, and then in all- each in their own order."
IMO, There are enough parrallels in the writings of Peter, James, John and Paul to assume that all of the apostles understood this and proclaimed it.
Also as far as the word "saved" is concerned, which has meant "saved from eternal torment" to most people for well over a millenia, isnt the first-fruits of the harvest, "saved" out of the harvest?
Peter said "Be saved from(apo-out of Strongs 575 "of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken") this perverse generation" in His initial message to the Sanhedrin on Pentecost, the first proclamation of the gospel.(Acts 2:40)
When we are healed(saved, sozo, -delivered, healed, restored) we are saved "out of Adam" and "born not of the will of man, or the will of the flesh, but of the will of God". We become the children of God, a new generation, a new creature "in Christ"..
"Beloved, Now we are God's children, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see Him as He is."
Our salvation is the "gathering out" of the first- fruits. "Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights..... In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Born not of the will of man...but of God.
Along with what Paul says in Romans 8 we begin to see that this was the will of God from the beginning. We are that good and perfect gift, given as the first-fruits of that which is coming to the whole creation, called out to be deliverers, healers, restorers. To me, Romans 8:18-25 and Eph 1:9-14 are the ultimate foundational verses for a comprehensive view of eschatology.
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body." Phil 3:20
Why?
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Ecclesia means "separated ones", "called out ones".
Our salvation is the gift of God to the whole creation in Christ. "Christ in you the hope of glory"....."in hope that the creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God".
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.(Eph 1)
To the end that you who were first to believe would be to the praise of His glory.....With a view to the redemption of God's own possession
The pledge of the inheritance in us is a guarantee that God will redeem ALL His possession-not just us. Because He has redeemed us- who were sinners, alienated towards God and hostile in mind(Colossians 1)- the guarantee is that God will redeem all, and Paul lays this out throughout Ephesians, referring back to it frequently...
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.(Eph 2)
Surely you have heard about the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ(Eph 3)
This myster of His will according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him....
Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.(Eph 4)
Paul wrote of it in breif, but we have to realize that we are looking back at it from a "wrong foundation" , a "tattered and soiled map".
But the longer we read, the more we see- they were looking forward to it from having received, by direct revelation(not through the agency of man) the "whole counsel of God".
Once we begin to see the words from that contextual view- it becomes obvious that this was as fundamental to their understanding of His purpose as ANY PART OF THE GOSPEL. It was woven into "the whole cloth". It was not a separate special revelation. It was part and parcel- the gospel. "Saved" never meant to them what it has meant to us. It wasnt saddled with those limitations and distortions until much later.
It meant , delivered, healed, restored- called out, separated to the will of God and that will- that as joint heirs with Christ we would work together in Him, indeed- we were created in Christ Jesus for good works which He prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them, and that GOOD WORK THAT THE WHOLE CREATION BE SET FREE FROM FUTILITY- hence the whole creation anxiously longs for our "manifestation".
We read and speak as those who must defend and convince and shore up. Our fear causes us to still see certain things as if the map was still soiled and tattered.
They spoke as if it was understood, just "the gospel" with no fear or apology, because they saw it as clearly as the noonday sun.
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. (Eph 3)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
Also as far as the word "saved" is concerned, which has meant "saved from eternal torment" to most people for well over a millenia, isnt the first-fruits of the harvest, "saved" out of the harvest?
agreed - I have seen our salvation as: "saved" from ignorance (in the mind) and selfish desires (in the heart)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
Peter said "Be saved from(apo-out of Strongs 575 "of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken") this perverse generation" in His initial message to the Sanhedrin on Pentecost, the first proclamation of the gospel.(Acts 2:40)
"saved" from the mind and heart of the world (the world personified as this perverse generation)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
When we are healed(saved, sozo, -delivered, healed, restored) we are saved "out of Adam" and "born not of the will of man, or the will of the flesh, but of the will of God". We become the children of God, a new generation, a new creature "in Christ"..
So Adam is the personification of the word "harvest"
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
Along with what Paul says in Romans 8 we begin to see that this was the will of God from the beginning. We are that good and perfect gift, given as the first-fruits of that which is coming to the whole creation, called out to be deliverers, healers, restorers. To me, Romans 8:18-25 and Eph 1:9-14 are the ultimate foundational verses for a comprehensive view of eschatology.
In Christ, the Father made manifest (known) the last Adam and the first Adam - their identities (Spirit/flesh) and the Spirit of God (the Father) moved upon the face (identity) of the waters (last Adam/first Adam)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 08, 2017, 06:50:14 PM
They spoke as if it was understood, just "the gospel" with no fear or apology, because they saw it as clearly as the noonday sun.
Agreed ..... I heard and felt your passion for this
Amen brother :o) !
Amen! :dsunny: :cloud9:
Just the other morning, during prayer, I was thinking about the New Jerusalem, and also Jerusalem during the millennium (and judgment age?) And was reminded of the School of Tyrannus.. and even earlier how the 200 Christians following the Lord's ascension would meet at the temple porches.. but mostly the School of Tyrannus and how Jesus when He returns, He returns to Jerusalem (Mt of Olives, Zech 14:4) and establishes His kingdom - now outwardly and on the planet! as well as within all those who love Him. And I was thinking about the spirit of Elijah and of John the Baptist.. and an 'end' times Spirit of the LORD, saying "seek the Lord while He may be found" ..make His way straight.." (straighten the path in us for His occupation)..
And of how the prophets, when they prophesied, would say "the Word of the LORD came to me.."
Who will be those servants who will be found of Him feeding the household? (Others will be beating up on others of the household?)
I think it seems king of obvious that our heavenly Father is not one to whiz through things.. The millenium.. the 'day' of the GWT judgment.. and even during New Jerusalem age(?)..
When God is done.. I believe all will be "chosen"/choice.. But truly awesome some will be teachers and counsellors in His Work of getting all there!!
..Great tread! reminds me of these verses - (which I'm sure we all love! :gsmile: )
Micah 4:1
4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Zechariah 8:22
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
Isaiah 2:2
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
P.S - Paul wrote "one is not a jew/believer/christian! who is one outwardly but whose heart is not right with God, circumcision is of the heart" (romans 2)
And John tells us what it is that is the measure by how he always wrote "little children love each other.."
Who is our neighbor? I believe it's our fellow person. I can't help thinking that ultimately the measure which measures the heart, is love.. "God is love".. does love, true affection, 1st for Him of course, and His Son, then does God (Love) flow through one for one's fellow person? Love is the best teacher? (Previously i've thought experience, but now i'm thinking love is the best teacher!