God of this world?

[jugghead]

In my opinion, the God of this world is our heavenly Father, simply because of the surrounding verses.

In verse 29 some heard thunder, some heard an angel ..... this in itself is an example of who was of the flesh (heard thunder/just noise) and who was of the Spirit (heard an angel/words of God).

If we are of the flesh, God is the adversary (the God of this world) ..... if we are of the Spirit, the flesh (personified) is the adversary ..... and God is still the God of this world since when we are of the Spirit we know He is in full control.

Those of the flesh hear only thunder/noise because the flesh is not subject to the law of God and what is one of His laws, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ..... which part of it is .... ears to hear .... hearing the Spirit/angel

But what precedes thunder .... is it not lighting .... a quickening to the Spirit, sure, there is no mention of lightening, but lightening can take place inside of a cloud without it being seen

then is verse 33 John says that Christ was referring to what death He should die and do we not know that His death is the perfect example of the spirit being separated from the flesh

And do we not see this in Genesis when God said "Let there be light" and then came the separation of the light (i.e. spirit) from the darkness (i.e. flesh)?

an example of spirit and flesh is at the beginning of this explanation (thunder/angel) and an example of spirit and flesh are at the end. both being an example of separation ..... and the purpose of the separation .... to be one with the Father just as Christ is .... and this is His law of reconciliation which we fully understand as good news (The Gospel).

[sheila]

Isaaih 44;22  I have blotted out...as a thick cloud thy transgressions...and as a cloud thy sins..for I have redeemed thee..return unto me..   and every eye shall see Him coming on the clouds of heaven.

    ...and the Glory of the Lord filled the temple..and no man could enter.   surely that great sword[salvation word] that proceeds from

His mouth..circumcises the spirit of man from the sinful flesh.

[sheila]

 :2c:  meditating on the OT covenant of circumcision....and those born of the will of man vs those born of the will of God...

   God is a spirit John 4;24 and those that worship must worship in spirit and truth[spirits of just men made perfect/you must

  be perfect as the Father is perfect]  GEN 1;26.in His own image He created him[spirit]  Ecc 12;7 and the spirit must return

  unto God who gave it  Hosea 13;14  redeemed from death


   Rev 6;9 -11 white robes on the slain[spirits/like the angels..the children of God]  Luke 20;37 ALL live unto Him....

   Hebrews 12;22...heavenly Jerusalem..the 'spirits' of just men made perfect...we are justified in Christ....


  John 12;32...and if I be lifted up..shall draw all men unto me[lower waters rise when the sun shines on them and are drawn up into

clouds....  He causes His face to shine on all men.......causes to pour out His spirit on ALL flesh


Luke 4;18  to set at liberty them that are bruised....the whole creation groans for the revealing of the  sons of God /for the creature

was subjected to vanity in the hope that the creature be delivered into the Glorious freedom of the sons of God[bound up all in


disobedience/in order to show mercy unto all]  DO I BRING TO BIRTH AND NOT GIVE DELIVERANCE?


.I will put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent

  ..the serpent bruises his heel..but he shall crush the serpents head[mind/thoughts will intentions]

   as we have all bore the image of the corrupt[sin in flesh] so,too shall ALL bear the image of the incorrupt


   Ecc 3;14 I know that whatso-ever God doeth..it shall be forever..nothing can be put to it ,nor anything taken from it.....

  and God doeth it..that men should fear before Him.  we are both fearfully and wonderfully made.  The fear of the Lord is

the beginning of wisdom.........perfection in the spirit[LOVE] is the casting out of fear


     ..the blueness of a wound[bruise heel] scours away the evil therof....and God scourges and chastises all He receives as sons.

  we pass through the rent vail of our flesh..and enter into the very presence of Our Father[Holy of Holies]   fullness

    ..with our token of the spirit..at present we go in and out of the Holy city to sup at the Kingdom of heavens tables with Him

  until we enter in and never go out.............we can and do get into a 'fleshly man perspective" that is at enmity with the perfection

........adversary's mindset...Isaaih 37;28  But I know thy abode and thy going out and thy coming in..and thy rage against me.


v 35 for I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake.  Rev 20;9..and compassed the camp of the saints about,and the

beloved city...and fire come down from God out of heaven devoured them.  Fire is Word of God and spirit of God.......and the very

image John saw when he saw Jesus with eyes like fire.......   fire tries our building/understanding on faith/chief cornerstone/Christ

..whether they be our understanding in union  with Christ/Father or doctrines of men/men's thoughts from the adversary;as in

Peter;s case..and pertain to a kingdom on this earth that the disciple's had hoped for.  Jesus said 'NOW my kingdom is not of this earth

or my men would have fought that I NOT be DELIVERED UP.". picking up our cross..but we look forward to a new heaven and a new

earth.   Paul said 'but as for what we will be...we shall see Him face to face and be just like Him"   I know that when 'gold' that we

buy from Him..is purified in the fire it reflects the face of the purifier's image [REV 3;18]    white rainment and eyesalve

feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace..as I ponder this ....fiery.serpents,serpent on a pole[brazen] and His feet

and heels come to mind...and faithful unto the death[of our flesh] comes to mind.  surely our flesh must decrease that He may

increase...and it must fall to the earth and die..that we may bear much[fullness] fruit unto heaven.


  I too,percieve things like jugghead..I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car

  that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY..a wicked generation that perishes

  in the wilderness of this world..flesh begets flesh/spirit begets spirit   from now on call no man your Father.Araham pictured

  Our Father......sand and stars...Ishmael pictured our flesh/earth stage and Isaac our Heavenly/celestial/spirit[promised] free woman

  servant/not remain in the household/son remain forever/heir

...some deep stuff ..overwhelming to consider what God has done and is doing..the pattern son..no longer known as a man

[StevenL]

 " I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY "

I like this..    ^

[eaglesway]

I think sometimes we read different things into the writing.It is understandable because, we are not sitting in a room with a person having a back and forth conversation leading to understanding.

There are two distinct ways to read "the god of this world."

the greek is "theos tou aion" -the "god of this age".

I see that as the ruler of this age, as opposed to the God of All Ages.

There is God "over the world and the ages"- the adversary is the god who is "of" the world, a ruler and a principality until his place is found no more.

Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

It could be looked at either way, because a god is not just who is control. It is also who is served and worshipped. He is the god of this age to those who are veiled by unbelief and law- they serve him unknowingly, mostly.

Jesus says in John 2:15

Do not love the world(kosmos) nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Then He turns around and says in John 3

"For God so loved the world(kosmos)...."

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world."

In 2 Corinthians 3 and 4 Paul is speaking of the veil of law and the veil of unbelief and imo "the god of this age" he speaks of is the enemy, but Paul is not ascribing to him "deity" or "sovereignity", but is in the tone of of

"The gods of the nations are idols"(Psalm 96), a metaphorical reference to the adversary as the one who is served by those who are blinded by the veils of unbelief and/or law. He has been given that principality, for a time, times and half a time(so to speak- a limited period)

"God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the "gods""
elohim........                                                                                              el

6I  said, "You are gods,
            And all of you are sons of the Most High.........

68Arise, O God, judge the earth!
            For it is You who possesses all the nations........

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup: EW

[micah7:9]

There has been some really good responses. I looked to see where satan/devil has the power or where satan/devil ever has "blinded," perhaps I overlooked where it was done, but I found no verse. I did find as I posted in the beginning Ex.4:11 that the Lord blinds and Jo.12:40 where it reads "He hath blinded...." In my opinion the "He" is the Lord.
It was from  this basic search that led me to wonder about 2 2Cor.4:4. 

Thank you all very much but without evidence that satan/devil/serpent/old dragon has blinded then I am stuck. There is abundant evidence in verses where the adversary deceives in many ways that's what the enemy does.... deceives, but does not blind.

Diaglott 4 in whom the God of the age this blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, in order that not to see distinctly the illumination of the glad tidings of the glory of the Anointed one, who is an image of the God.

JuliaSmith 4 In whom the God of this world blinded the minds of the unbelieving, so that the enlightening of the good news of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, does not enlighten them.

MSTC 4 in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest should shine unto them the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, which is the image of God.

Wycliffe 4 in which God hath blent the soulis of vnfeithful men of this world, that the liytnyng of the gospel of the glorie of Crist, which is the ymage of God, schyne not.

Matthew Bible 4 in whome the God of thys worlde hath blynded the myndes of them which beleue not, leste the lyght of the gloryous gospell of Christe which is the ymage of God shoulde shyne vnto them.

[marie glen]

" I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY "

I like this..    ^

But originally was "all good" - "and God saw that it was good" - I don't think of it as having to be rescued (saved) from our body or any sort of 'falling into denser or different substance' but is a matter of character.

If the problem here on planet Earth is earth.. matter. And a case of man having fallen from a higher state into a material body - "dust thou art" - which knowledge (gnosis) will deliver us from, the scene around us would seem to suggest otherwise. This Earth is glorious! And so is the living machinery we call our bodies. When God visited Earth in Ezekiel chapter two, he arrived on a living platform with living wheels and borne about on living wings.

The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?

Logically, at most, if we are "trapped in a body" that would be a symptom, or an effect, and not a cause.

Why did God bar the way to the tree of life after Adam and Eve had changed? For surely, they did change. In the Genesis chapter two insert account of the creation of Adam and Eve, we are told how Adam was formed of dust, and Eve from his rib, and the two were one. "Be fruitful and multiply.. dress the trees and keep the garden.. the fruit and herbs shall be for food.."

What changed in Adam and Eve? Surely it was something in their thoughts.

Their psyche changed! The serpent had said to them, surely God was lying.. the one forbidden fruit was surely desired to make one wise. It was not unpleasant to the sight.. looked harmless enough. Indeed, if it was knowledge to make one wise.. and to be like God..!

But what was the change? They hid themselves. If there was a substance change, I believe it was in their clothing. From a raiment of light to fig leaves, and then to animal skins (in which God clothed them). They and the world became imperfect, and death now existed.

And what of the serpent? The one Revelation, chapter twelve calls Satan (adversary) and dragon? Was the issue that he fell into a denser substance?

I think the Pandora's box is thinking ability. If one is a rational creature, one can (sooner or later) make choices. What could possibly be God's motive in letting it run its course?
        :Peace2:

[marie glen]

Of course, ultimately it is God / Creator who has blinded the minds.. but I figure if we examine all the verses, such as -

John 12:40 (YLT)

40 `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'

Along with -

Rev 12:9 (YLT) -

"..the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world.." Rev 12:9

2 Corinthians 4:4 (YLT) -

"in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God"

This leads me to believe our heavenly Father has engineered things in such a way that this whole unavoidable journey, and lesson - unavoidable if there's to be rationality that is(?) - that it be sped along.. For I figure with thinking ability comes "choice" / the ability of. And I can't help thinking if YHWH had not engineered things just so..

Instead, one rational creature would wander away - from Him/perfection?/life? (His Perfect Will) - at their own time.. another at their own time.. and then later another.. later another.. and another.. virtually taking 'for ever'. But no. I figure HE created the universe and man and woman, not only after the 1st (bound to occur) rebel thought occurred, but aFter it had matured into revolt and sedition. In this way, all are taking this journey/foundation(?) lesson all together at once.. "all in heaven and earth". All learning good and evil at once. (Learning life from death? ..that to wander from Him can only - ever - end in an apocalyptic wisp of self destructive smoke? Which would be each one of our 'destiny' had not God built the rescue in from the beginning/foundation?)

I figure it all comes down to His being a good parent.. A parent can say don't do that, don't go there - because I said so! - or they can teach the child WHY not to do that.. WHY not to go there..
     :2c: :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

"Of course, ultimately it is God / Creator who has blinded the minds.. but I figure if we examine all the verses, such as -

John 12:40 (YLT)

40 `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'

Along with -

Rev 12:9 (YLT) -

"..the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world.." Rev 12:9

2 Corinthians 4:4 (YLT) -

"in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God"

As I posted God blinds and the opponent deceives.

[StevenL]

Hi Marie!

Well, for me it's kinda like, since the law couldn't do (by design) what God intends as the final result, because of the weakness of flesh, it had to be replaced. The weakness had to be destroyed and replaced by something not weak.

There nothing evil about the materials making up our bodies. It's not a problem of matter but of weakness. But it is because we are limited in our thinking by the brain of flesh that's in our heads (weak), by the limited span of activity of our bodies (by death, preventing the accumulation of true knowledge), and the weakness inherent in our flesh while living, which WAS THERE by design in Adam and Eve from  creation (and it was Good, so was the serpent, which was also there) before Eve ate anything, that our bodies must be replaced. Mortal, corruptible must put on immortal, incorruptible.

Jer 17:9  Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable--who does know it?
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?

The law didn't get Israel to righteousness. Our current bodies are not getting us to the end of our Spiritual highway, as Sheila said. Not a one of us are going to make it there in this car. That's why I "liked" it. Just a neat thought put in interesting words (to me.)

You and I are not in agreement on the issue of free-willed, rational creatures so we will always have different views for those things in which that idea is a component. But that's ok. May as well be up front and truthful with one another about it, eh? I loves you anyway! We WILL come into agreement eventually. I'd like to see it while we're still in these bodies, but I'm not holding my breath for that.  :) I think these cars are too weak to get us there.

[micah7:9]

Hi Marie!

Well, for me it's kinda like, since the law couldn't do (by design) what God intends as the final result, because of the weakness of flesh, it had to be replaced. The weakness had to be destroyed and replaced by something not weak.

There nothing evil about the materials making up our bodies. It's not a problem of matter but of weakness. But it is because we are limited in our thinking by the brain of flesh that's in our heads (weak), by the limited span of activity of our bodies (by death, preventing the accumulation of true knowledge), and the weakness inherent in our flesh while living, which WAS THERE by design in Adam and Eve from  creation (and it was Good, so was the serpent, which was also there) before Eve ate anything, that our bodies must be replaced. Mortal, corruptible must put on immortal, incorruptible.

Jer 17:9  Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable--who does know it?
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?

The law didn't get Israel to righteousness. Our current bodies are not getting us to the end of our Spiritual highway, as Sheila said. Not a one of us are going to make it there in this car. That's why I "liked" it. Just a neat thought put in interesting words (to me.)

You and I are not in agreement on the issue of free-willed, rational creatures so we will always have different views for those things in which that idea is a component. But that's ok. May as well be up front and truthful with one another about it, eh? I loves you anyway! We WILL come into agreement eventually. I'd like to see it while we're still in these bodies, but I'm not holding my breath for that.  :) I think these cars are too weak to get us there.

:iagree: :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

" I see our flesh as a biological vehicle..that our spirit dwells in temporarily.....a contrary car that can not get us to where we are going...it breaks down[corruptible] on that spiritual HIGH WAY "

I like this..    ^

But originally was "all good" - "and God saw that it was good" - I don't think of it as having to be rescued (saved) from our body or any sort of 'falling into denser or different substance' but is a matter of character.

If the problem here on planet Earth is earth.. matter. And a case of man having fallen from a higher state into a material body - "dust thou art" - which knowledge (gnosis) will deliver us from, the scene around us would seem to suggest otherwise. This Earth is glorious! And so is the living machinery we call our bodies. When God visited Earth in Ezekiel chapter two, he arrived on a living platform with living wheels and borne about on living wings.

The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?

Logically, at most, if we are "trapped in a body" that would be a symptom, or an effect, and not a cause.

Why did God bar the way to the tree of life after Adam and Eve had changed? For surely, they did change. In the Genesis chapter two insert account of the creation of Adam and Eve, we are told how Adam was formed of dust, and Eve from his rib, and the two were one. "Be fruitful and multiply.. dress the trees and keep the garden.. the fruit and herbs shall be for food.."

What changed in Adam and Eve? Surely it was something in their thoughts.

Their psyche changed! The serpent had said to them, surely God was lying.. the one forbidden fruit was surely desired to make one wise. It was not unpleasant to the sight.. looked harmless enough. Indeed, if it was knowledge to make one wise.. and to be like God..!

But what was the change? They hid themselves. If there was a substance change, I believe it was in their clothing. From a raiment of light to fig leaves, and then to animal skins (in which God clothed them). They and the world became imperfect, and death now existed.

And what of the serpent? The one Revelation, chapter twelve calls Satan (adversary) and dragon? Was the issue that he fell into a denser substance?

I think the Pandora's box is thinking ability. If one is a rational creature, one can (sooner or later) make choices. What could possibly be God's motive in letting it run its course?
        :Peace2:

"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"

Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God.  :2c:

[StevenL]

That's why He made war horses.

Job 39:19  Do you give to the horse its mastery? Do you clothe its neck with thunder?
Job 39:20  Do you make him quake like the locust? The splendor of his snorting strikes dread.
Job 39:21  He paws in the vale and is elated in his vigor; He goes forth to meet the weapons of battle.
Job 39:22  He makes sport of alarm and is not dismayed; Neither does he turn back because of the sword.
Job 39:23  On him the quiver jubilates, The blaze of spear and scimitar.
Job 39:24  With quaking and thunderous sound, he gulps up the earth, And he cannot believe the sound of the trumpet.
Job 39:25  As soon as the trumpet sounds, he shouts, Aha! And from afar he smells the battle, The thunder of the chiefs and the shouting!"

[eaglesway]

I think you have to bypass a whole lot of context to come up with God is blinding the eyes of everyone who doesnt believe the gospel in that verse.

"No man comes unto me except te Father draw him".

Is God drawing men or is He blinding them?

The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.'b As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'c

God is not a man that He should lie.

If we are to be a lamp upon the Lampstand, and God has set us to me ambassadors and has "entrusted to us the word of reconciliation"- I cant see where 2 Cor 4, which refers to "anyone who has not believed our gospel"- if it were so it becomes a contradiction of a great many scriptures.

Perhaps a theory to justify a hyper Calvinist type position?

Their is an adversary. His job, directed, or created to do it, or fallen in his own dilemma of resolution with the Father- that doesnt matter to me so much, that it is a matter of mystery and paradox in the language of scripture.

Is the "evil one" the author of confusion and the father of lies(Jesus' words not mine) or is God? Is Satan "a murderer from the beginning" or is God?

At the very least, as it appears to me- God set the stage and we are actors in it and we have our roles and within the stage we play them out by His design- and find our resolution within the play- becoming sons of God. Satan's role is "adversary"; "deceiver"; murderer"....etc.

The reading of the verse could be a matter of perspective- a toss up- if it wasnt for all those other verses.

If the roles are reversed, the play makes no sense and becomes and exercise of God within which we are just puppets in a charade, a comedy of errors, a gothic theater of the absurd.

[sheila]

  I do think He blinds certain men on purpose..to fulfill His purpose..He even states frankly that He bound all men up in disobedience.

   for if they had KNOWN that He was the Lord of Glory they would not have crucified Him....the scriptures must be fulfilled......

   and negative roles must be fulfilled in men[Judas/Pharoah/Absalom/Herod/] some men in this life are assigned to play the black/roles

    it's like He plays negative chess..moving both white and black pieces at will.    I believe there are certain things He desires to happen

  to all that have eaten from the tokogae..before He grants access unto the TOL........and then the 'CHANGE"


  and ps  no,I am not a gnostic and I do not believe that flesh is evil of itself..but do believe it is sucseptible to evil spiritual influence

    death and corruption..also that flesh man can be naïve/ignorant/deceived and unstable in all His ways..allowing sin and evil to

  master him..instead of him mastering it. the reward for eating of the tokogae  as a free will rational being is death not wisdom....

  lean not upon our own understanding[I know..easier said than done] wise as a serpent and guilty as one too

   the TOL will lead into understanding, wisdom from above, Love and perfection..and has no death in it..but eternal life in the spirit.

   But all things are ours..both death[tokogae] and life[Tol]  wise as a serpent yet innocent as the dove.   

     

[StevenL]

 "No man comes unto me except te Father draw him".
"Is God drawing men or is He blinding them?"

Scripturally, He is doing both. These actions are not mutually exclusive. And so far that I've seen in my time and what I can gather from history, it's leaning FAR to the side of Him not drawing the masses to Christ, in this age.

"God is not a man that He should lie."

I've seen no one here hinting that God is lying.  ?

"Perhaps a theory to justify a hyper Calvinist type position?"

Since everyone here, as far as I can tell, believes that all will eventually be reconciled to God, I'm not sure this is an appropriate aspersion. I've seen no poster here asserting the predestined damnation to hell of any person. What's this about?

[eaglesway]

If God so lovd the world that He sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross, What was the purpose of that, if He is at the same time blinding men from seeing it, and why does He ask us to lay down our lives "like sheep led to the slaughter" as Paul said, if He is blinding men from seeing the "light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ".

It is all so ridiculous, if God is asking people to die for a gospel he is blinding men to. This life is not a "passion play" put on for His entertainment. It is real. The adversary is a real adversary. The sins committed in the earth are devastatingly real, and the reckoning for them will be awesome and terrible. We are in a real war- it is no fairy tale. God is not like shifting shadow. His promises are yes and amen in Him because he is the "I AM"- the one truly pure being.

If He exhorts us in the ways He does by the prophets and the apostles and the Savior, throughout the scriptures, while at the same time blinding the people He is urging us to "fill up the cup" of Christ's sufferings for, then truly it is a lie.. I think all this has a masque of spirituality, but imo it is really only intellectual sophistry.

The scriptures can be taken at more face value than that.

I do agree with sheila that he blinds certain men at certain times, as it speaks in various places- but 2 Cor 4 says "IF ANYONE DOES NOT BELIEVE OUR GOSPEL...."  It is speaking of the one whose power is devoted to keeping men in darkness, who comes to "steal, kill and destroy"- and it talking of the whole world that is outside of Christ. its really pretty clear, imo.

[gregoryfl]

Thank you all very much but without evidence that satan/devil/serpent/old dragon has blinded then I am stuck. There is abundant evidence in verses where the adversary deceives in many ways that's what the enemy does.... deceives, but does not blind.

Perhaps this example from the historical past might shed more light on this"

Then a spirit came forth, stood before Yahweh and said, I myself shall entice him. Yahweh asked him, By what means? He replied, I shall go forth, and I will become a false spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. Then He said, You shall entice, and, moreover, you shall prevail. Go forth and do so. And now behold, Yahweh has given a false spirit into the mouth of all these, your prophets, for Yahweh Himself has decreed evil concerning you.
(1Ki 22:21-23)

A spirit from the host of heaven gathered before God say he will entice Ahab by becoming a false spirit in the mouth of Ahab's prophets.

God gives this false spirit into their mouths, decreeing evil concerning in the process.

Now, bringing this forward to the time that Paul wrote:

What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. And David is saying, Let their table become a trap and a mesh, And a snare and a repayment to them: Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually. I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:7-11)

What I see here is the same thing, where God is the one giving a spirit who causes them not to see and not to hear. The language, at least from the Aramaic compared the Hebrew, is strikingly similar. This is the same callousness that he writes about in 2Co 3, and fleshes out in chapter 4.

God is the ultimate cause, yet the spirit sent is the means.

As to the reason for it all, it is certainly not anything I would have thought up. It,on the surface, sounds foolish to me. Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him? Ah, but it turns out that I am the fool, for it is I who had been blinded and far too narrow in my thinking.

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)

Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.

[eaglesway]

All of those examples are specific disciplinary actions. I think it is written, "Because they received not a love of the truth God gave them over to believe a lie."

The "Because" in there is rather important. I definitely believe God uses the adversary to afflict the wicked and to test the righteous.

I definitely do not believe that God is like "The Force"- half good half evil, or like Shiva or Zeus- just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose.

2 Cor 4:4 is speaking of the entire unbelieving world, "anyone who has not believed."

So HE sends Jesus to die for people who cant see it, and leaves them in their blindness because it suits Him, and calls a whole other group of people to suffer and die to tell the other folks that He is blinding. He says that the gospel is "destroying the works of the devil"- but those are really His works- so His language is both arbitrary and hypocritical, like the gods of old.

To me, that God can only exist in a world where you live on TV or enclosed in the anti-septic fantasy of religion- because(imo), people who have seen real evil in the world know better.

I do believe God has shut up all in disobedience, but He is not the one keeping them there. His mercy has been given, We are announcing it. The Lord is working with us.

And that is exactly what the verse says in context.

1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

The words I put in bold describe, not who we are- but who God is in us. Not walking in craftines. Who is crafty? Surely not God.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The way I see it, that is God's pre-disposition towards man. "In all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He puposed in Himself.....the gathering together into one all things in Christ."

Do I believe God is ultimately responsible for evrything? Yep. The inner workings of that may be above my paygrade ....

"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?"

But I am not trying to answer the whole question of good and evil for anybody, including myself. it is a mystery. I prefer it that way.

I just dont think 1 Cor 4:4 is speaking about God, and wouldnt make sense in the context(which begins in in Chptr 3:1) if it did.

[GodIsLove]

"I definitely do not believe that God is like "The Force"- half good half evil, or like Shiva or Zeus- just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose."

I haven't gotten the impression that anyone on TM believes this.

If God blinds, we all know it is only for a season and His purpose. 

The thing about Satan blinding is that it gives him/it/whatever a lot of power. How does he/it/whatever have the power to do that to so many people? It seems too supernatural and omnipotent for a mere created tool/fallen being, whatever you think he/it is. Deceiving is different. Another being can deceive me, but another being cannot blind me.  Being blind implies an at least temporarily unchanging state until a healing takes place. 

If Satan is blinding everyone that's fine too, to me it doesn't matter if the creator or something he created is doing that work, because we know HE has built in the rescue for ALL. These discussions are more thought-exercises for us I think, because in the end it comes down to opinion and what we feel is closest to the truth.

And yeah, life is really horrific. Many of us know first hand of this and from knowledge of history and current events as well. I don't think anyone on here thinks God allows evil  for His entertainment, but for a greater good in which evil is somehow necessary, and while we all would like to think we "get it" it really is out of our grasp in this age to understand what the heck is going on :) ...even with some God-given glimpses here and there. 

[marie glen]

Hi Marie!

Well, for me it's kinda like, since the law couldn't do (by design) what God intends as the final result, because of the weakness of flesh, it had to be replaced. The weakness had to be destroyed and replaced by something not weak.

There nothing evil about the materials making up our bodies. It's not a problem of matter but of weakness. But it is because we are limited in our thinking by the brain of flesh that's in our heads (weak), by the limited span of activity of our bodies (by death, preventing the accumulation of true knowledge), and the weakness inherent in our flesh while living, which WAS THERE by design in Adam and Eve from  creation (and it was Good, so was the serpent, which was also there) before Eve ate anything, that our bodies must be replaced. Mortal, corruptible must put on immortal, incorruptible.

Jer 17:9  Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable--who does know it?
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?

The law didn't get Israel to righteousness. Our current bodies are not getting us to the end of our Spiritual highway, as Sheila said. Not a one of us are going to make it there in this car. That's why I "liked" it. Just a neat thought put in interesting words (to me.)

You and I are not in agreement on the issue of free-willed, rational creatures so we will always have different views for those things in which that idea is a component. But that's ok. May as well be up front and truthful with one another about it, eh? I loves you anyway! We WILL come into agreement eventually. I'd like to see it while we're still in these bodies, but I'm not holding my breath for that.  :) I think these cars are too weak to get us there.

For the most part, I think you're right. My issue is with the old gnostic thought that the whole problem we (humanity) has to be saved from resulted from a "falling into matter" - I don't believe that. I believe we are saved and rescued from death and its cause, sin, which is translated from the Greek "missing the mark" which I personally interpret as imperfection (flawed).

I tend to think God is Life itself. And Perfection, so to my way of thinking imperfection is the opposite of life. Of course no one has free will, only the ability to make choices (imo, of course). So I do believe satan chose to rebel.. not all of a sudden, but by thoughts - choice of thought, piling up (progressing to) outright revolt. So I came to think of it being a good question as to why - not a questioning of God's will, but of following a line of logic - why did God choose to create man and woman after that had occurred (thoughts in satan to revolt) as to me, it seems obvious that's what occurred. Of course others may not see that as logic at all.

And as you said, that's alright! I think it's interesting and 'great fun' to discuss these things.. when emotion/anger, etc is not part of the picture. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I'm not sure how much our brains are limited, because they are physical, so much as because they "miss the mark" as to perfection. And I'm not sure how much the Holy Spirit can remedy that. I tend to think of Revelation chapter 7's sealing of God's servants (144,000 of Israel, and? those from all nations, tongues, tribes, which make up a great crowd unable to number). I tend to think the sealing - to go along with the seal of God upon the heart - the pledge/guarantee/notary stamp of our being His - that the sealing upon the forehead may have something to do with clarity.

Whereas upon the forehead of ($ity?) Babylon is "mystery babylon"/mystery babble? signifying all untruth? - for this "mystery babble-on" is responsible for all slain upon Earth.. And so the opposite of babble or all untruth, would be all clarity(?)

It's a question I have.. during (what I think is) the pause of Seal Six - the split atom as warfare (but told as a blend of its 1st and its last a 'seal' on the vision, which only the HS can unlock?) - but during this 'pause', occurs the sealing of foreheads..

Perhaps the seal does not guarantee 100% clarity, after all, the seal on the heart does not guarantee 100% purity of heart.. But previously I have hoped it does signify 100% clarity.. A girl can dream... Either way, I agree this 100% clarity will one day be ours (and all's) :cloud9: :Peace2: ..And then the body will truly be one..

[sheila]

many are called..but few are chosen...the deception being so great that if possible..even the chosen  would be deceived.........


....there you go.  if you examine the scriptures..you will find Our Father chooses a few good men. one or two prophets at a time

     a few men for the battle...that it be shown it is by His spirit/power and not flesh strength of men. Of coarse satan calls men

  to a false prophet status,many anti-Christ"s etc. ..and the people face the dilemma...who is speaking truth? a twisted version or truth?

  nothing new under the sun...satan come twisting the word of God to Eve from the beginning..even unto Jesus in the wilderness

  we are not greater than He..............if God allows the adversary to tempt and try us all so what?  Jesus is the pattern son......

  and satan attempted to tempt and try and crucified Him.   a lie can draw out a wicked desire in your heart..and if it is there.....

  you will love it..the lie...and not love the truth.if you hear the truth..and reject it..chosing instead something that 'tickles your ears"

{ and many like their ears tickled]  if our eternal life depended on all men knowing/understanding perfectly in this life..and walking

it out perfectly..I believe that is exactlywhat God would do. Jesus said...ye will have tribulation in this world[even great trib]

but fear not! for I have overcome the world.

    He makes all things new...He said the clay become 'marred" in His hands....and He has authority to make another vessel

  of the same lump.This creation is His 'baby" and no-one loves it more than Him.  He put eternity in man's heart......Jesus

was in the heart of the earth for 3 days/nights....that's the heart of the son...not servant...that remains in the household.

   all mankind is to remain in the household of God .     Zion says...'Who bore me these? I was all alone"  apparently lost children

  come home.....

[marie glen]

Great discussion guys! (male and female of course)

"The problem is not creation itself. From where do wars come from? Do they come from trees? Perhaps from the ocean.. or the mountains? ...Is it the wind?"

Wars come from the Creator...the Lord God.  :2c:

hi Micah! That's exactly where we disagree.. And also agree! :laughing7: I believe God is responsible for life as it is.. all of it, upon planet Earth.. But I believe He did this by allowing angel and man's ability to make choices, to run its course.

It sounds to me like you are saying God specifically designed, say, Hitler-Stalin.. Pol Pot, etc, etc.. to do and act exactly as they did.

But I believe some are allowed to descend further downward into the abyss of "choice" possibility.. (My belief, the abyss is "how low can we go? - bottomless! which is part of what we are learning?)

Otherwise I could think God designed and programmed me to specifically do those errors (sins) of my own.. and then they are not really my own. God made me do it.

But James wrote -

1:13 Let no one say, being tempted—'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.

3:11 (God as fountain) "doth the fountain out of the same opening pour forth the sweet and the bitter?"

and 4:1 "Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires that war in your members?"

That's why He made war horses.

...but were they war horses "in the beginning".. and were some animals predators from the beginning? Or is it part of "the curse"?

Genesis 1:30 .."and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which [is] breath of life, every green herb [is] for food:' and it is so."

Is the "evil one" the author of confusion and the father of lies(Jesus' words not mine) or is God? Is Satan "a murderer from the beginning" or is God?

At the very least, as it appears to me- God set the stage and we are actors in it and we have our roles and within the stage we play them out by His design- and find our resolution within the play- becoming sons of God. Satan's role is "adversary"; "deceiver"; murderer"....etc.

The reading of the verse could be a matter of perspective- a toss up- if it wasnt for all those other verses.

If the roles are reversed, the play makes no sense and becomes and exercise of God within which we are just puppets in a charade, a comedy of errors, a gothic theater of the absurd.

:thumbsup: :iagree:

  I do think He blinds certain men on purpose..to fulfill His purpose..He even states frankly that He bound all men up in disobedience.

   for if they had KNOWN that He was the Lord of Glory they would not have crucified Him....the scriptures must be fulfilled......

   and negative roles must be fulfilled in men[Judas/Pharoah/Absalom/Herod/] some men in this life are assigned to play the black/roles

    it's like He plays negative chess..moving both white and black pieces at will.    I believe there are certain things He desires to happen

  to all that have eaten from the tokogae..before He grants access unto the TOL........and then the 'CHANGE"

I (think I) agree with that.. but i see it perhaps more of a "we would all fall to the utter depths of darkness, all of us, eventually, if we had been simply left on our own.. no Great Plan of Salvation :mshock: (how terrible! and terrifying!)

  and ps  no,I am not a gnostic and I do not believe that flesh is evil of itself..but do believe it is sucseptible to evil spiritual influence

    death and corruption..also that flesh man can be naïve/ignorant/deceived and unstable in all His ways..

I agree.. but as an effect, not a cause - which as a cause, is what the gnostics proclaimed.. among other things   

Why would God blind and deafen the very ones he originally chose, and grant his favor to the ones who originally were stubborn toward him?

For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
(Rom 11:32)

Every man and woman locked up in stubbornness, resulting in His showing mercy to every man and woman.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

All of those examples are specific disciplinary actions.

     just playin games with mankind. exercising His fickle will in a way that is a doubleminded secret woven in underneath and contrary to His declared purpose.

2 Cor 4:4 is speaking of the entire unbelieving world

I do believe God has shut up all in disobedience, but He is not the one keeping them there. His mercy has been given, We are announcing it. The Lord is working with us.

And that is exactly what the verse says in context.

1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

The words I put in bold describe, not who we are- but who God is in us. Not walking in craftines. Who is crafty? Surely not God.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The way I see it, that is God's pre-disposition towards man. "In all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will according to His kind intention which He puposed in Himself.....the gathering together into one all things in Christ."

Do I believe God is ultimately responsible for evrything? Yep. The inner workings of that may be above my paygrade ....

"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?"

But I am not trying to answer the whole question of good and evil for anybody, including myself. it is a mystery. I prefer it that way.

I just dont think 1 Cor 4:4 is speaking about God, and wouldnt make sense in the context(which begins in in Chptr 3:1) if it did.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The thing about Satan blinding is that it gives him/it/whatever a lot of power. How does he/it/whatever have the power to do that to so many people? It seems too supernatural and omnipotent for a mere created tool/fallen being, whatever you think he/it is. Deceiving is different. Another being can deceive me, but another being cannot blind me.  Being blind implies an at least temporarily unchanging state until a healing takes place.

this made me want to look up the Greek # - for blinded in this verse (2 Cor 4:4) - turns out to be G5186 which includes -

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) to blind, make blind
2) in the NT metaph. to blunt the mental discernment, darken the mind

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G5185; to make blind, that is, (figuratively) to obscure:—blind.     
       :Chinscratch:

If Satan is blinding everyone that's fine too, to me it doesn't matter if the creator or something he created is doing that work, because we know HE has built in the rescue for ALL. These discussions are more thought-exercises for us I think, because in the end it comes down to opinion and what we feel is closest to the truth.

And yeah, life is really horrific. Many of us know first hand of this and from knowledge of history and current events as well. I don't think anyone on here thinks God allows evil  for His entertainment, but for a greater good in which evil is somehow necessary, and while we all would like to think we "get it" it really is out of our grasp in this age to understand what the heck is going on :) ...even with some God-given glimpses here and there. 

:iagree: but, I think there will come a time when is fulfilled Jesus' words that the HS will lead into all truth, which I think was likely fulfilled in the apostles(?) but now the gospel has been handed down through very many human hands..

I guess I see Satan as having far more experience in all these matters, been working his end for about 6000 years, as compared to each one of our short life span.. (in comparison). I think the world is covered with untruth somewhat like a heavy, wet quilt set low in the atmosphere, covering the earth.. A tapestry Satan has had a lot of time to weave. And I think it does "obscure, darken the mind, blunt the mental discernment.."

many are called..but few are chosen...the deception being so great that if possible..even the chosen  would be deceived.........

"if possible even the chosen would be decieved" :faint: You are very right!

....there you go.  if you examine the scriptures..you will find Our Father chooses a few good men. one or two prophets at a time

     a few men for the battle...that it be shown it is by His spirit/power and not flesh strength of men. Of coarse satan calls men

  to a false prophet status,many anti-Christ"s etc. ..and the people face the dilemma...who is speaking truth? a twisted version or truth?

  nothing new under the sun...satan come twisting the word of God to Eve from the beginning..even unto Jesus in the wilderness

  we are not greater than He..............if God allows the adversary to tempt and try us all so what?  Jesus is the pattern son......

  and satan attempted to tempt and try and crucified Him.   a lie can draw out a wicked desire in your heart..and if it is there.....

  you will love it..the lie...and not love the truth.if you hear the truth..and reject it..chosing instead something that 'tickles your ears"

{ and many like their ears tickled]  if our eternal life depended on all men knowing/understanding perfectly in this life..and walking

it out perfectly..I believe that is exactlywhat God would do. Jesus said...ye will have tribulation in this world[even great trib]

but fear not! for I have overcome the world.

    He makes all things new...He said the clay become 'marred" in His hands....and He has authority to make another vessel

  of the same lump.This creation is His 'baby" and no-one loves it more than Him.  He put eternity in man's heart......Jesus

was in the heart of the earth for 3 days/nights....that's the heart of the son...not servant...that remains in the household.

   all mankind is to remain in the household of God .     Zion says...'Who bore me these? I was all alone"  apparently lost children

  come home.....

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[sheila]

Before we came into being..He knew what we would do...He prophesied of Cyrus before he was born. ONLY the CREATOR of

the Creation has this foreknowledge. Evidently He plans ahead....Jesus said 'In my Father's house are many dwelling places"

and 'I go to prepare a place for you"  He's prepared a whole new kingdom..a whole new earth.


  it is an overwhelming thought that God has foreknew this whole creation..down to the individual life of every man. But He's been

around for a long long time...and had a long long time to plan ahead...He's counted the cost ahead of time..and has the ability

to bring it all to fruitfulness..........and it is not brought about by the will and planning of men..but of God....

    He's got this!!!