God of this world?

[micah7:9]

I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?

[jabcat]

I've pondered this a bit, and I'm not sure who it would be except for satan (based on my memory of the context of the scripture - even though I haven't checked it again yet for this post).  However, then I've wondered where God "fits in" since I think He's in control.  Did He relinquish only parts of that control for a limited time, etc...I don't think I have this one figured out :o

[GodIsLove]

I just looked into the Greek words and I am wondering why the translators chose to write "god" and not "God" when the words are exactly the same and all other instances of the word in Corinthians are referring to God capital G...

Micah are you thinking the "god" of this world is God? Never thought of it before your post but after looking at the Greek I am leaning toward that.

God created vessels for wrath...basically blinding them.

Also the word that is translated "world" is the same that is often translated age AND eternity. It's the one we here at TM think should be age but it's interesting they chose to write "god of this world" and not "eternal God" as they may in another passage.

I may be wrong about all this, I'm not a bible scholar or fluent in Greek, but this post has got me thinking...

[micah7:9]

2 Cor. 4:4 is the only place I have that says "the god of this world." That seemed strange to me. WHO blinds?
I found this Exo 4:11  And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

And 2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
Joh 12:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

My thought is God blinds...... the adversary deceives. I'm throwing all I have dug up, just looking up the word deceive and deceives there are many but I found these two helpful....1Ti 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Job 12:16  With him is strength and wisdom; The deceived and the deceiver are his.

GodIsLove....I was just going to point that word "world" out thanks

[jabcat]

here's an interesting thought i ran across, that indicates satan only has limited/specific "godhood", or more specifically, influence..at least worth considering..

"the Bible never teaches that Satan actually rules over the entire world, but that he is ruler over the current system of sinful opposition to God"

:Chinscratch:

[micah7:9]

here's an interesting thought i ran across, that indicates satan only has limited/specific "godhood", or more specifically, influence..at least worth considering..

"the Bible never teaches that Satan actually rules over the entire world, but that he is ruler over the current system of sinful opposition to God"

:Chinscratch:

I agree. satan rules by deceiving and it would seem that the current system is deceived. Man can be deceived. Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen."

Those with the mind of Christ will not be deceived (go astray) G4105 planaō to (properly cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue): - go astray, deceive, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way.   :2c:

[StevenL]

I've wondered the same about these as well:

Joh 12:29  The throng, then, which stands and hears it, said, "A thunderclap has come!Others said, "A messenger has spoken to Him!" Joh 12:30  Jesus answered and said, "Not because of Me has come this voice, but because of you." Joh 12:31  Now is the judging of this world. Now shall the Chief of this world be cast out. Joh 12:32  And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself." Joh 12:33  Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying."

I was taught that this was God judging the world and casting out the devil. But now when I read it hits me that it's possible the world is doing the judging of the Chief, refusing his headship, and casting Him out... agreeing with

Mar 12:6  Still one had he, a son, his beloved. He dispatches him also, last, to them, saying that 'They will be respecting my son.'"
Mar 12:7  Yet those farmers say to themselves that 'This is the enjoyer of the allotment. Hither! We should be killing him, and the enjoyment of the allotment will be ours!'"
Mar 12:8  And, taking him, they kill him and cast him outside of the vineyard."

Luk 19:14  Now his citizens hated him, and they dispatch an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us!'"

But there's this too:  Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth. It was cast into the earth, and its messengers were cast with it."
So.... Hmmm

AND THIS:

Joh 16:8  Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you. And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judging:"
Joh 16:9  concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;"
Joh 16:10  yet concerning righteousness, seeing that I am going away to My Father, and no longer are you beholding Me;" Joh 16:11  yet concerning judging, seeing that the Chief of this world has been judged." Joh 16:12  Still much have I to say to you, but you are not able to bear it at present."

Satan/devil is the Chief? Maybe I'm not 'able to bear it' even now.

HOW ABOUT THIS:

Joh 14:28  You hear that I said to you, 'I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Joh 14:29  And now I have declared it to you ere it is occurring, that, whenever it may be occurring, you should be believing." Joh 14:30  No longer shall I be speaking much with you, for the Chief of the world is coming, and in Me it has not anything."

The devil/satan is coming? That's what I was taught. But Jesus just said "...I am coming..."

How much of the knowledge of the 'devil/satan that we western believers have actually comes from Scripture, how much from the Babylonian fables? How much Scripture do we have about satan being a 'god' with his own will and kingdom? Little, if any? How much Scripture do we have showing that God has always been in complete control of this world/kosmos and the ages. Huge amount?  Have we been fooled about satan/devil in many ways? Probably, since he has deceived the whole world, which likely includes me. 

Seems to me that if this is True:
Dan 4:31  While the matter is still in the mouth of the king, a voice falls from the heavens, "To you are they saying, King Nebuchadnezzar: The kingdom passes away from you." Dan 4:32  From mortals are they shoving you, and with the animals of the field is your abode. Herbage will they feed to you, as oxen. Thus seven seasons shall pass on over you till you shall know that the Supreme is in authority in the kingdom of mortals and to whom He is willing He is giving it." [/b]
Dan 4:35  All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing in the army of the heavens and with those abiding on the earth. And no one will actually clap with his hands and say to Him, "What doest Thou?

Then this can't be True:
Luk 4:5  And, leading Him up into a high mountain, the Adversary shows Him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in a second of time." Luk 4:6  And the Adversary said to Him, "To you shall I be giving all this authority and the glory of them, for it has been given up to me, and to whomsoever I may will, I am giving it."  It is possible, I suppose, (highly unlikely, in my opinion) that God gave it over to him (feels ridiculous to my thinking, but ?); it is NOT possible that satan gives it to whomever he wills.

It seems pretty clear (to me) that even if things are done here through the agency of the adversary/slanderer/devil/satan, that they are only done as a result of the will and intent of the true Ruler of the creation, Father God Himself. Does He blind people? My fleshly reasoning, my carnal mind says NO. The Scriptures say differently, explicitly, and those Scriptures are not really that hard to understand. Hard to Accept though is another story.

What if He, Father, has decided NOT to save most of mankind during the present evil age, and therefore blinds their minds to the good news temporarily, for a future purpose or judgment? What if He intended to blind the minds of most of the people of Israel so that the Outsiders could get in? Could anyone stay His hand or say "what are you doing?"

Maybe the story of Nebuchadnezzar is an allegory, showing what the powers in the heavenlies have to learn as well as the beasts on the earth, like ME? Maybe the devil/slanderer just believes (fancies) himself to have his own will and kingdom and has deceived mankind into believing such things as well?

One thing for sure (finally, whew!  : )  ), the True God will have His waywhen it's all sorted out, and then we'll all know and bow.

My   :2c:

Edit: Sorry, no idea how all that got underlined in the last part of the post. The format markers show up as I intended them (I think) but it still underlined all of it. Oh well!

[micah7:9]

Very good and offered post. Much to study and much to be reconsidered.  :dsunny: :2c:

[GodIsLove]

" Maybe the devil/slanderer just believes (fancies) himself to have his own will and kingdom and has deceived mankind into believing such things as well?"

Yes. That seems likely. Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth. Whose to say they were his to give? He is a liar and deciever.

[micah7:9]

" Maybe the devil/slanderer just believes (fancies) himself to have his own will and kingdom and has deceived mankind into believing such things as well?"

Yes. That seems likely. Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth. Whose to say they were his to give? He is a liar and deciever.

:thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

Psalm 22 For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations.

2 Chronicles 20:6 "O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you."

Deuteronomy 10: 14 To the Lord your God belong the heavens,even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.

Psalm 47:8 God reigns over the nations; God is seated on his holy throne

Roman's 13:1  ...for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 

John 19:11 Jesus answered [speaking to Pilate], "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."

Daniel 2:21 he removes kings, and sets up kings...

Daniel 4:17 the Most High has power over human kingdoms. He gives them to whomever he wishes.

[joeteekay]

I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?

I have always thought that the god of this world (age) was Satan. This thread has me thinking if that thought is true. After investigating this further and reading through the posts, I conclude that Satan is the god if this age. Just my opinion.

God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures

According to a definition in biblehub it can refer to any one who can be likened to God and perceived as such.

http://biblehub.com/str/greek/2316.htm

1. a general appellation of deities or divinities
4. Θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way:

In Act 12;22 A man, Herod is likened to a "god". Same word - THEOS.

Act 12:22  And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon. Which God gave him by the way.

Mat 4:8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Joh_12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Eph_2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Rev_12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I can only conclude that 2 Cor 4:4 is referring to the Adversary.

:2c:

[gregoryfl]

This question bears out the difference between those who can have it only one way, as for example, who brought evil upon Job, was it Satan the Adversary...

Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)

Or was it Elohim...

Then they sympathized with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him.
(Job 42:11)

Perhaps, as Thomas Aquinas writes, this blindness can be explained in more than one way:

124. – The cause of this concealment is not on the part of the Gospel, but on account of their own guilt and malice; and this is what he adds: in their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. This can be explained in three ways: in one way so that the god of this world, i.e. God, who is the Lord of this world and of all things by creation and nature: "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein" (Ps. 24:1), has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, not by producing malice, but by the merit, or rather demerit of preceding sins, by withdrawing his grace: "Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed" (Is. 6:10). Therefore he hints at their preceding sins when he says, of unbelievers, as though their unbelief is the cause of this blindness. In a second way, so that the god of this world, i.e., the devil, who is called the god of this world, i.e., of those who live in a worldly manner, not by reason of creation but by imitation, because worldly persons imitate him: "They follow him that are on his side" (Wis. 2:25, Vulgate). Here he blinds them by suggesting, by attracting and by inclining to sins. And so, when they are already in sin, they work in the darkness of sin, lest they see: "Darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). In the third way thus: God has the nature of the ultimate end and fulfillment of the desires of every creature. Hence, whatever a person assigns to himself as an ultimate end in which his desire rests, can be called his god. Hence, when you have pleasure as end, pleasure is called your god, and the same for pleasures of the flesh and for honors. Then it is explained so that the god of this world, i.e., that which men living in a worldly way set up as their end, say pleasure or riches and the like. And God blinds their minds, inasmuch as he prevents them from seeing the light of grace here, and the light of glory in the future: "Fire", namely of concupiscence, "has fallen on them, and they shall not see the sun" (Ps. 57:9, Vulgate). Thus, therefore, the blindness of unbelievers is not on the part of the Gospel, but from the sin of unbelievers.

Ronen

[micah7:9]

This question bears out the difference between those who can have it only one way, as for example, who brought evil upon Job, was it Satan the Adversary...

Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)

Or was it Elohim...

Then they sympathized with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him.
(Job 42:11)

Perhaps, as Thomas Aquinas writes, this blindness can be explained in more than one way:

124. – The cause of this concealment is not on the part of the Gospel, but on account of their own guilt and malice; and this is what he adds: in their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. This can be explained in three ways: in one way so that the god of this world, i.e. God, who is the Lord of this world and of all things by creation and nature: "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein" (Ps. 24:1), has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, not by producing malice, but by the merit, or rather demerit of preceding sins, by withdrawing his grace: "Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed" (Is. 6:10). Therefore he hints at their preceding sins when he says, of unbelievers, as though their unbelief is the cause of this blindness. In a second way, so that the god of this world, i.e., the devil, who is called the god of this world, i.e., of those who live in a worldly manner, not by reason of creation but by imitation, because worldly persons imitate him: "They follow him that are on his side" (Wis. 2:25, Vulgate). Here he blinds them by suggesting, by attracting and by inclining to sins. And so, when they are already in sin, they work in the darkness of sin, lest they see: "Darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). In the third way thus: God has the nature of the ultimate end and fulfillment of the desires of every creature. Hence, whatever a person assigns to himself as an ultimate end in which his desire rests, can be called his god. Hence, when you have pleasure as end, pleasure is called your god, and the same for pleasures of the flesh and for honors. Then it is explained so that the god of this world, i.e., that which men living in a worldly way set up as their end, say pleasure or riches and the like. And God blinds their minds, inasmuch as he prevents them from seeing the light of grace here, and the light of glory in the future: "Fire", namely of concupiscence, "has fallen on them, and they shall not see the sun" (Ps. 57:9, Vulgate). Thus, therefore, the blindness of unbelievers is not on the part of the Gospel, but from the sin of unbelievers.

Ronen

"This question bears out the difference between those who can have it only one way, as for example, who brought evil upon Job, was it Satan the Adversary...

Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)"

Who? If I may ask who is speaking here?

Job 2:5 Howbeit, now put forth your hand and touch his bone and his flesh. He shall assuredly scorn you to your face.
Did satan put forth the hand or the Lord?

[micah7:9]

I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?

I have always thought that the god of this world (age) was Satan. This thread has me thinking if that thought is true. After investigating this further and reading through the posts, I conclude that Satan is the god if this age. Just my opinion.

God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures

According to a definition in biblehub it can refer to any one who can be likened to God and perceived as such.

http://biblehub.com/str/greek/2316.htm

1. a general appellation of deities or divinities
4. Θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way:

In Act 12;22 A man, Herod is likened to a "god". Same word - THEOS.

Act 12:22  And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon. Which God gave him by the way.

Mat 4:8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Joh_12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Eph_2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Rev_12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I can only conclude that 2 Cor 4:4 is referring to the Adversary.

:2c:

Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon. Which God gave him by the way.

Mat 4:8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Yes, God gave the kingdoms of the world, but not the world, just the kingdoms. the devil is a prince and can be accepted as a "god."

[micah7:9]

I have reasoned that I must reconsider [2Cor.4:4] "who" is the "god" of this world (age.) Perhaps not the devil?

I have always thought that the god of this world (age) was Satan. This thread has me thinking if that thought is true. After investigating this further and reading through the posts, I conclude that Satan is the god if this age. Just my opinion.

God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures

According to a definition in biblehub it can refer to any one who can be likened to God and perceived as such.

http://biblehub.com/str/greek/2316.htm

1. a general appellation of deities or divinities
4. Θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God, or resembles him in any way:

In Act 12;22 A man, Herod is likened to a "god". Same word - THEOS.

Act 12:22  And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

Other posts have already mentioned the scriptures regarding Satan's rulership and authority in this present eon. Which God gave him by the way.

Mat 4:8  Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Joh_12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Eph_2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Rev_12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I can only conclude that 2 Cor 4:4 is referring to the Adversary.

:2c:

In one of my early posts I stated that God blinds, where does it say in the Bible that satan/devil/ adversary blinds? But the Bible clearly states Exo 4:11  And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

[gregoryfl]

Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)"

Who? If I may ask who is speaking here?

The writer of the book.

Job 2:5 Howbeit, now put forth your hand and touch his bone and his flesh. He shall assuredly scorn you to your face.
Did satan put forth the hand or the Lord?

It is not either/or. I believe it is both. Here we see the adversary telling Elohim to put forth his hand, yet in the next verse Elohim himself says Job is in the adversaries hand:

Hence Yahweh said to the Adversary, Behold him in your hand.
(Job 2:6)

Does the carpenter hammer the nail into the wood, or does the hammer do it? Both do. God is the carpenter, and the hammer is the adversary.

[StevenL]

Joe:  God in the NT is translated from the Greek THEOS (G2316). Its use does not always imply the true God of the Holy Scriptures

This is true. God even called men 'elohim' / theos / gods, meaning magistrates, judges, or rulers.

Psa 82:6  I Myself have said: you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you."
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? "
Joh 10:35  If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled), Joh 10:36  are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that 'You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, 'Son of God am I'?

[StevenL]

Does the carpenter hammer the nail into the wood, or does the hammer do it? Both do. God is the carpenter, and the hammer is the adversary.

This is pretty much the way I see it too. So if both the carpenter and the hammer are called 'god', I can still know that the nail is not going into the wood without the will and motivation of the carpenter. And from this, I know that Jesus/Yeshua has been the God of gods at least since He rose from the dead:

Eph 1:18  the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints, Eph 1:19  and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
Eph 1:20  which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials, Eph 1:21  up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:" Eph 1:22  and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia" Eph 1:23  which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all."

Looking at the world through my senses, it sure doesn't look like He is the sovereign ruling power over the universe. If I'm deciding based on my own fleshly faculties, I have to conclude that a satan is ruling this age. What a Mess! But he isn't. What a strange Mystery, this crooked serpent that was made to swim about in the sea.

[StevenL]

Interesting discussion! I've just been pondering some of this, having just been back through Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, Kings, where God is constantly whacking Judah and Israel for being stubborn and disobedient, blind, deaf. Then this little jewel pops me upside the head:

Deu 29:4  Yet until this day Yahweh has not given to you a heart to realize and eyes to see and ears to hear.
I'm not sure that this is any different from blinding them.

It's like this same paradox:

Joh 3:36  He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him."

Yet:

Joh 6:44  No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day. Joh 6:45  It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Me."

Yep, His ways are NOT my ways and His thoughts NOT my thoughts.

But, as to the topic of the thread... if someone's got a gun to my head and I'm having to choose who  "...THE Theos/god of this age/eon is, I'm going with Jesus, per Ephesians 1:20. But please don't shoot me just yet.  : )

[micah7:9]

I must humbly admit my question is both disturbing and interesting, yet reasonable considering Col.1:16-17. I would seem to me, my opinion, that we have just accepted that the "god" is satan without ever really questioning, and by doing so established in our minds that the devil has quite a bit of control when the enemy is nothing more than a tool.

[micah7:9]

Then the Adversary went forth from Yahweh's presence, and he smote Job with evil boils from the sole of his foot unto his scalp.
(Job 2:7)"

Who? If I may ask who is speaking here?

The writer of the book.

Job 2:5 Howbeit, now put forth your hand and touch his bone and his flesh. He shall assuredly scorn you to your face.
Did satan put forth the hand or the Lord?

It is not either/or. I believe it is both. Here we see the adversary telling Elohim to put forth his hand, yet in the next verse Elohim himself says Job is in the adversaries hand:

Hence Yahweh said to the Adversary, Behold him in your hand.
(Job 2:6)

Does the carpenter hammer the nail into the wood, or does the hammer do it? Both do. God is the carpenter, and the hammer is the adversary.

True, it just seems to me that tradition has it that the adversary was the hammer....power, the ability, the capacity to cause or create the boils and sores without the carpenter.

[gregoryfl]

True, it just seems to me that tradition has it that the adversary was the hammer....power, the ability, the capacity to cause or create the boils and sores without the carpenter.

:iagree:

Which is why it is good to think and be willing, as you have, to challenge lovingly, and not simply go along. About 2 years ago or so the idea that 'the god of this world' might not be Satan crossed my mind. Because I had not heard of anyone else advocating such an idea, I kept it to myself. So it is nice to see others seeing similar things.

[sheila]

make the tree good or make the tree evil..............TOL has no death evil in it.  tokogae does.........death and life...ALL things are yours.   to the forward you show yourself forward..to the merciful..merciful..etc

     Paul speaks of seeing Him face to face and being just like Him..and asking Him nothing further.  TOKOGAE God kills and God makes alive [law]  TOL God is LOVE and makes ALL things[even disobedience and the

  partaking of TOKOGAE work to the Good .

[Abigail]

I have the translation by Jonathan Mitchell here and it might add some insight to the used words.

Joh12:31 ... now the Ruler (the one invested with power; the leader; the chief; the ruler; or: the Original One; the Beginning One; the Prince) of this System will be ejected outside (or: At this time the Chief of this world of culture, religion and government, the Originator and Controlling Principle of the ordered arrangement and universe, will be thrown out, [to the] outside [of it]).

2Cor4:4 ...within and among which folks the God of this age (or: the God who owns this indefinite time-period; the God Who is in relationship with this eon) blinds (or: deprived of the ability to see) the effects of the intellects and mental powers of those without faith...