SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

marie glen · March 15, 2016, 10:53:11 PM

Imagine! Spurgeon having said such a thing!! :faint: Yahweh and Christ may "curtail" "correct" and even "punish", but torture? Not logical whatsoever. Amazing what illogic the human mind - even the saved or devout - can actually believe..

circularity

Quote
..."When we understand the glorious truth that our God is both the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, then we realize that no matter how vast the cycle and circuit, the end is secure, for all things return unto Him again. To read only a portion of God's Word, the facts are too few to rightly calculate the CURVE of God's plan. And while HE does, gloriously, illumine a specific verse or sentence to speak to our hearts for that day, we also need the full sweep of the Book to gain an overall view of His purpose, and then understand the tremendous victory which is ours in Christ".

Long milleniums ago Adam was banished from the Paradise of God and its life-giving tree. But God has provided a way by which His banished may return! Some glad morning, when the unfolding plan of God is complete, all who once stood "in Adam" in the Garden will again be gathered together and their eyes will behold with endless joy that heaven blest Eden in which walked Adam, the son of God. But even now there is a remnant, the election of grace, the firstfruits of His redemption WHO IN SPIRIT HAVE ENTERED THOSE ONCE-CLOSED PORTALS AND HAVE PARTAKEN OF THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF LIFE! In the power of the Christ, the last Adam, though the firstfruits of Christ's redemption still move about in a world which is under the curse, where the traces of sin are visible on all hands, these have found their way, by faith, to the bosom of the Father, and are NOW AT HOME AGAIN IN GOD! The mighty transformation that has come and is coming to our lives shall be experienced ultimately by ALL MEN, God's own law of circularity secures it, and none can resist it, praise His glorious name!"

Amen! (logic restored..)

rodgertutt · March 16, 2016, 11:11:34 AM

Am I understanding correctly that the above quote is by Spurgeon?
If so does anyone know which of his writings it its from? :dontknow:

darryl · March 16, 2016, 03:32:27 PM

from what I know, Spurgeon was far from being a UR believer..unless he changed !..be great if he did !

Spurgeon Quotes on Universalism
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob these deep thinkers cannot endure, but if you say that God is angry with the wicked every day, these modern god-makers tell you that he is too loving for that,—that he cannot possibly be angry, but loves all, has redeemed all, and will in the long run save all, including Satan himself. C.H. Spurgeon

Men seem to think that God is under obligation to grant salvation to guilty men; that if he saves one he must save all. They talk about rights, as if any man had any right before the throne of God, except the right to be punished for his sin. C.H. Spurgeon

As I have warned you before, abhor the doctrine of the universal fatherhood of God, for it is a lie, and a deep deception. It stabs at the heart, first, of the doctrine of the adoption, which is taught in Scripture, for how can God adopt men if they are all his children already? In the second place, it stabs at the heart of the doctrine of regeneration, which is certainly taught in the Word of God. Note it is by regeneration and faith that we become the children of God, but how can that be if we are the children of God already? C.H. Spurgeon

There has been spreading, in this country, and in other lands also, the idea of universal salvation; and, mark you, wherever that doctrine spreads, vice must and will spread as the natural and inevitable consequence. When men are taught to believe in ultimate universal salvation, their immediate and legitimate inference is, "Then we may live as we like, and all will come right in the end;" and they will live as they like, but all will not come right in the end! C.H. Spurgeon

rodgertutt · March 17, 2016, 08:50:02 AM

Thanks darryl.

Does anyone know who wrote the quote that marie posted?
It is very good!
I posted it on face book without naming who wrote it.

joeteekay · March 17, 2016, 04:39:53 PM

J. Preston Eby wrote that. See the last paragraph in his article on tentamker.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

:dsunny:

rodgertutt · March 18, 2016, 09:40:13 AM

Thanks Joe

COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
and
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

rodgertutt · March 19, 2016, 08:45:43 AM

darryl · March 19, 2016, 10:59:35 AM

Quote from: rodgertutt on March 17, 2016, 08:50:02 AM
Thanks darryl.

Does anyone know who wrote the quote that marie posted?
It is very good!
I posted it on face book without naming who wrote it.

no, Rodger..haven't got a clue who wrote it. Sorry.

rodgertutt · March 19, 2016, 02:44:59 PM

thanks darryl, joeteekay says J. Preston Eby wrote it.
He posted this link for it
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

I might have guessed. It sounds like Preston :-)

rodgertutt · March 20, 2016, 12:19:24 PM

Having read several books and other writings against the Bible teaching universal salvation it is my observation that the authors (like Spurgeon) simply could not accept God's plan for the ages of time as revealed in a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible.

THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED

"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

joeteekay · March 20, 2016, 11:18:52 PM

The web site saviourofall.org and Joseph Kirk provides a very good explanation of the eons and the salvation of all.
However the source I found immensely valuable like no other is in this publication by A. E. Knoch. IMO he was the real trailblazer under God' inspiration in revealing the true meaning of the original scripture. His explanation on the eons start near the end of this publication. The book was scanned in PDF format and therefore not like other pdf documents. I have referred to this book many times and find it incredibly insightful.

http://www.concordant.org/online/All_in_all-A.E.KNOCH.pdf

:dsunny:

Joe

rodgertutt · March 21, 2016, 02:18:32 PM

Thanks joe. :iagree:

I was also helped a lot by Knoch's book
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html

darryl · March 22, 2016, 01:59:28 AM

Quote from: rodgertutt on March 19, 2016, 02:44:59 PM
thanks darryl, joeteekay says J. Preston Eby wrote it.
He posted this link for it
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

I might have guessed. It sounds like Preston :-)

k..thanks ..cheers !

rodgertutt · March 22, 2016, 01:06:45 PM

CONSEQUENSES OF TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF "ETERNAL HELL"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

INSANITY
Does traditional Christianity cause insanity? Many seem to think so. This video is the story a pastor and his daughter of their journey from the traditional turn or burn gospel to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like it on Facebook and please send links to your family and friends. Gary Amirault
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnZRms3XZE

Are Christians Greater Idol Worshippers Than Israel Was? I fear so. See for yourself:
Christian Molech Worship
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuhBdWbJXQ

rodgertutt · March 28, 2016, 10:42:59 AM

THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."

EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED

Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

rodgertutt · March 29, 2016, 07:26:10 AM

SOONER OR LATER EVERYONE WILL BE IN HEAVEN

Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

rodgertutt · March 30, 2016, 11:04:23 AM

Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html

darryl · March 30, 2016, 04:37:24 PM

Quote from: rodgertutt on March 30, 2016, 11:04:23 AM
Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html

ETers claim the phrase 'unto the ages of the ages' denotes eternality cos its used in reference to God and Jesus...eg, Jesus says He was dead but now lives 'unto the ages of the ages' but here, in my opinion, Jesus is stressing the penultimate two final ages of God's salvific acts on behalf of humankind which result in the salvation of all..of course Jesus lives past these 'ages of ages' even forevermore as evinced by other passages stressing His immortal incorruptible nature..but, God uses words for good reasons and He uses 'ages of the ages' here to stress a point...a point which sadly, the ETers miss entirely.

joeteekay · March 30, 2016, 05:07:04 PM

Quote from: rodgertutt on March 28, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."

EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED

Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

[/size]

The events in the last eon raise some questions that forum members may have further insight. I have read the works of AE Knoch, J Preston Eby, Adlai Loudy, William W. Bentley, Jr, James Corman and others. They all believe in the salvation of all. But seems to me there is a lack of consistency in their explanations about this last eon. Mr. Knoch, who was given much understanding, sees the last eon as lasting a long, long time - many generations. I agree with that. But the questions which I have yet to find answers relate to :

The last eon is when the earth is renewed with fervent heat, heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth and the rest of the dead are resurrected. This is the time of the white throne judgement for all resurrected mankind. God dwells with mankind (still flesh) and judges from His white throne in righteous judgement.

We are told in Revelation that in this eon there is no need for the sun, people will not die during this eon because of access to the tree of life, there will be fruit of trees for healing of nations. No more death because of taking the tree of life during this eon. It will be a time of peace and joy under Christ's ruler ship..

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The lake of fire is first mentioned as the place of torment for the Adversary, the false prophet and the beast in the millennium period. The lake of fire will continue until the consummation.

From scripture it seems that the great white judgement begins at the start of the last eon when the dead are raised for judgement. Does judgement last for the entire eon? This eon is a time when mankind will dwell in peace and harmony under the ruler ship of Christ (no rod of iron in this eon). And mankind will live and not die because of taking the tree of life (Rev. 21:4)? And no pain nor crying.

Question?

How is the lake of fire associated with the judgement at the white throne? Will the lake of fire be in effect during the white throne judgement period which is the last eon? If it is and it probably is, will all of mankind be subject to the lake of fire during the last eon? We know the lake of fire is not literal, but it is real. If people are living in peace and tranquillity, how can they also experience the Lake of Fire? Is the lake of fire in effect for the entire eon, or just at the consummation?

Then we have the second death.

Death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire - the second death. The lake of fire ceases at the consummation. Is judgement an ongoing process during the eon? Do people continue to live in that eon while being judged? How do the results of those judgements play out? At the end of the eon will all the billions living in that eon die the second death (not having been written in the book of life) and then be "made alive", vivified, made immortal at the consummation? Help on this process and how these event transpire would help me greatly.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

rodgertutt · March 31, 2016, 11:08:03 AM

Maybe someone with better understanding than I have will respond to joeteekay's concerns. I will just move on with my postings. :dontknow: :-)

A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS

Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/

darryl · March 31, 2016, 12:53:35 PM

Quote from: joeteekay on March 30, 2016, 05:07:04 PM
Quote from: rodgertutt on March 28, 2016, 10:42:59 AM
THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
"The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God's declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the 'injury' (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death."

EVENTUALLY EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED

Sinners whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

"Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19
James Coram.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
[/size]

The events in the last eon raise some questions that forum members may have further insight. I have read the works of AE Knoch, J Preston Eby, Adlai Loudy, William W. Bentley, Jr, James Corman and others. They all believe in the salvation of all. But seems to me there is a lack of consistency in their explanations about this last eon. Mr. Knoch, who was given much understanding, sees the last eon as lasting a long, long time - many generations. I agree with that. But the questions which I have yet to find answers relate to :

The last eon is when the earth is renewed with fervent heat, heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth and the rest of the dead are resurrected. This is the time of the white throne judgement for all resurrected mankind. God dwells with mankind (still flesh) and judges from His white throne in righteous judgement.

We are told in Revelation that in this eon there is no need for the sun, people will not die during this eon because of access to the tree of life, there will be fruit of trees for healing of nations. No more death because of taking the tree of life during this eon. It will be a time of peace and joy under Christ's ruler ship..

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The lake of fire is first mentioned as the place of torment for the Adversary, the false prophet and the beast in the millennium period. The lake of fire will continue until the consummation.

From scripture it seems that the great white judgement begins at the start of the last eon when the dead are raised for judgement. Does judgement last for the entire eon? This eon is a time when mankind will dwell in peace and harmony under the ruler ship of Christ (no rod of iron in this eon). And mankind will live and not die because of taking the tree of life (Rev. 21:4)? And no pain nor crying.

Question?

How is the lake of fire associated with the judgement at the white throne? Will the lake of fire be in effect during the white throne judgement period which is the last eon? If it is and it probably is, will all of mankind be subject to the lake of fire during the last eon? We know the lake of fire is not literal, but it is real. If people are living in peace and tranquillity, how can they also experience the Lake of Fire? Is the lake of fire in effect for the entire eon, or just at the consummation?

Then we have the second death.

Death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire - the second death. The lake of fire ceases at the consummation. Is judgement an ongoing process during the eon? Do people continue to live in that eon while being judged? How do the results of those judgements play out? At the end of the eon will all the billions living in that eon die the second death (not having been written in the book of life) and then be "made alive", vivified, made immortal at the consummation? Help on this process and how these event transpire would help me greatly.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

in my opinion the final 2 ages (the 'ages of the ages') equate to the 2 final inner rooms of the temple, the 'Holies of the Holies'.These final two ages are the 'White Throne judgement age' and the 'Lake of Fire age'.

These 2 final 'ages of the ages' complete the 7 Ages of God's salvific dealings with humankind which result in the salvation of All and also fits nicely with the number 8 which represents 'new beginning' and 'regeneration' in the Bible.

After the completion of these 7 ages, a 'new beginning' of peace, joy and salvation for ALL will commence lasting throughout all eternity.

:dsunny:

rodgertutt · March 31, 2016, 05:10:42 PM

Is this a help?

Regarding the words translated "forever and ever"
From AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott

As mentioned previously, there are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.
As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5.

marie glen · March 31, 2016, 07:31:29 PM

Quote

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

:dsunny: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote

in my opinion the final 2 ages (the 'ages of the ages') equate to the 2 final inner rooms of the temple, the 'Holies of the Holies'.These final two ages are the 'White Throne judgement age' and the 'Lake of Fire age'.

:Chinscratch: hmmm, i never thought of that.. interesting... certainly God's throne is central to both - the inner rooms and the final two ages which are in the Book of Revelation.

Quote from: rodgertutt on March 31, 2016, 05:10:42 PM

Is this a help?

yes, this too, very helpful! :thumbsup:

..................................................................

....it's at Christ's return that the false prophet and the world (big) beast (imo, rev 13:1-10, not 11-18) - two institutions "alive" and active at the time - are cast into the lake of fire/2nd death.

..the judgment at that time (verse 20:4) is judgment upon the world, when the goats are gathered to armageddon and the sheep into His barn..

..At which time is the "first resurrection"

Then is the 1000 yr (millennium) reign of Jesus - during which time, also, that serpent of old, the dragon is shut up into the abyss of darkness (20:1-3)

and "the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are ended" (verse 5).

Verse 7 - "And when the thousand years are completed.." (the second resurrection) "a great white throne.. the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is the scroll of life" -- Isn't this likely to be a 'day' of intense review of all human history? (Certainly would be wasteful if it wasn't?) Where does it say no one's name can be written upon the scroll of life during this day? (During this age)? It is presumed and assumed to be the case, but where does it say it? What is required for the name to be written upon the scroll of life?

[ image of how ages = U.R. - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html ]

from Revelation ch 21:1-6 - "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth.. the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride.. a loud voice from the throne, saying, "See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them, and be their God.. He will wipe every tear from their eyes.. no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying ..no more pain..He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make ALL things new".. .."It is done!"

darryl · April 01, 2016, 05:28:31 AM

Quote from: rodgertutt on March 31, 2016, 05:10:42 PM
Is this a help?

Regarding the words translated "forever and ever"
From AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott

As mentioned previously, there are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.
As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5.

yes, isn't it marvelous ?...7 ages..and 7 is the perfect number of God !..please read Bullinger's book on Bible Numerics..the number 7 is so significant. The number following, the number '8' stands for 'a new beginning' according to Bullinger.

It's wonderful cos it shows God is totally in control and has framed,created and perfected the 'Ages' for the benefit of humankind.

I love the deep Biblical doctrine of the Ages. It's a pity its so neglected in the church but I guess with their shallow and thoughtless emphasis on 'eternal judgement in hell' they miss the deeper Truths of God's precious Word.

Plus their 'eternal torment in hell' concept does not fit in with the doctrine of God's salvific doctrine of the Ages so the ETers throw it out.

eaglesway · April 02, 2016, 09:29:18 PM

Yes. Amen!

I see the eon of the eons as the period after which the last adversary is nullified and God becomes all in all.

The age of the ages!

By this point all death, including the second death, will have been dissolved because all adversaries will have been subjected and reconciled- all will have been gathered into life without end.

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory to/into/for (eis) the ages(tous aionas)!

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SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT