Homosexuals. Are they accepted?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Patinak.....Sure will. Here's the gist of what I meant. The law is good, but the motive of the heart of men defiled it and continues to do so today. The purpose of the law is to put to death the flesh and it does a great job of it, but the problem arises in that without the Spirit administering it, all it does is kill/bring death to the hearer. Only the Spirit is a two-edged sword and that can both kill AND make alive (quicken) that same Word.

So apart from the anointing which breaks every yoke administering that law, the condemnation to the flesh hits the mark, BUT without the Spirit quickening it, no new life comes from that. Ever sit thru a church service and felt worse than before you went in? I guarantee you the law was preached but without the anointing to quicken once the flesh was killed. This is why Christians have been running from churches in droves, so how much more would those in obvious outright sin, refuse to come and be bashed?

If I take it further, the reason we (and when I saw we I mean the spiritual priesthood, ie. those baptized into His Spirit not just water) can't judge them, is because the heart of the priesthood has not yet been cleansed (but is being cleansed in this season as ALL is being required to be laid down) and this same spirit resides in the heart of all men, usurping the one on one relationship all men are meant to have with the Most High God, nothing withheld, no other man in the middle save the RISEN Lord, all false coverings removed.

For this reason, because whatever judgment WE mete out, by the same measure we are judged. The Pharisees, made to be as one with the Head in their season also, had the same problem. They washed the outside of the cup (soul, the repository of the Spirit), but not the inside. So has it been our fates for the last 2 days (a day is like a thousand years) of Pentecost, because it was not in the Lord's timing yet, because it was not the dawning of the 3rd day as it is now. Remember, He said tell Herod that fox, that the first two days I will do cures and cast out devils, but the third day I will be perfected. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Dandelion]

This is my dilemma with Homosexuality.

God has put many homosexual people in my life. I did not know any of them were homosexuals when I first got to know them. There are all different stories. All very interesting, I might add. All the homosexual people I know and knew, showed signs from birth, but many were denying those feelings/signs, initially, or just did not realize they were homosexuals, but 'knew something was wrong'.  Many of the people I know suffer(ed) mental illness, depression, suicide attempts, and one of my dearest, 'like a brother' friend, killed himself many years ago at 17 years of age, due to his homosexual feelings.

I understand, it was not God's plan. But, many times, people speak as though homosexuals made this decision to be so. I have never heard or seen this happen. All the people I know, were fighting 'tooth and nail' against being homosexual, and did extraordinary things to stop themselves from this lifestyle.

They are so saddened by the way many people view them.......as wanting to be gay or lesbian, when, in fact, none of the many people I know want or wanted this lifestyle. They are thought of as perverts and to be avoided, frequently. I know their deep and on-going pain, very well, at this point. Watching them try to live their lives as fruitful and as normal as they can, can be excruciatingly painful. They pray continually, to be delivered from this.

The world tells them they are sinning, but they have tried everything to not be homosexuals. And, all I know have tried everything at their disposal. Many are some of the most faithful, trusting in God, and caring Christian people I have ever known. Many of my homosexual friends are in Christian ministry of some sort, usually 'in the closet' still. Some not. Some had been married before coming to the realization and had watched spouses and children pay a very high price because of their homosexual inclinations.

There is nothing I or anyone else can say that they don't know or haven't thought of.  And it haunts them, continually.

Honestly, it breaks my heart to watch it all. It is so sad to be in church with them, when the Pastor gives a sermon or makes a comment about homosexuality. I see the tremendous pain on their faces, and it brings me to tears sometimes. In fact, I know Pastors who are homosexual, themselves.

So, that is my dilemma. I was a hard-liner for many years, about homosexuality. That was what I was taught and what I believed. I come from a lower-middle class, Catholic school background, in a very old-fashioned, Irish/Italian neighborhood in the Bronx. Homosexuality was not looked upon well. Actually, it was basically a non-issue, as it was never even spoken about, as though it did not exist. Again, I still believe, that it is not God's plan. But, I just don't see it as a choice people make, either, at this point.

So, I love my friends and family who are homosexuals, and accept them as they are. I try very hard to be there for them.

This is where I am at. God knows what I have seen and heard and He knows how it pulls at my heart, for many reasons. I give my conflict to Him.

:dunno2:                     :Pray:

[jabcat]

Honestly, I keep being disappointed this issue keeps being brought back up, but it does.  I guess it's the current "hot topic", and there may be a good reason for it.

I believe the preacher or anyone else that is concerned and speaks up about where society and the "church" is heading, what it accepts and believes and "pushes" for, is right to do so as long as it's scripturally sound and done in the right spirit - not bashing, yet telling the truth in love.  Not strangling people to death with it, but not compromising either.  Nothing wrong with teaching the truth - all of it.

For me the main issue is not whether our tendencies, including to sin, are choice or not.  The main issue is what is done with and about them.  i may have inherited personality traits, or had things happen to me early on that shaped me to have desires and tendencies, rather than my sitting and consciously choosing them.  For instance, that could include an intense sexual lusting after other women, that when cultivated would end up in my being unfaithful to my wife.  Did I choose to be initially overly attracted to women, have a deep desire to be intimate with them, somehow seeking acceptance, intimacy, love (or what I might call love) apart from God's intention for me,  or was I "driven" by something to try to fill some void in my life that was there "without my permission"?  IMO, even though those might be important questions, the main thing is how do I approach the problem.  Do I follow my own desires and tendencies, whether in-bred or not, fulfilling the lust of the flesh and doing clearly what God forbids, or approach it in some other manner? 

That's where I believe the choice comes in, with about any sin that comes against us.  I can give in to it (and have missed the mark many times in many ways in my life) or I can recognize my weakness, recognize my tendency to sin, seek God's face for help and deliverance.  Not try to deny it and justify it, insisting it's not sin (that doesn't really work, because a conscience knows [unless/until it's seared] but instead say to God "whatever I have to do to please you, help me do it".  Even (or especially) "I can't do this myself.  You have to carry me, pick me up, deliver me".  And often, "forgive me, because I've failed again".  But NOT, "this is just the way I'm made, I was born this way, so it must be OK".  Further, "the Bible must not really mean x,y,z [because it doesn't suit my flesh - or society's wishes - increasingly including the "church's".]" 

Basically, we're born with the built-in, genetically-coded propensity to sin.  We don't have to be taught how to do it.  It comes naturally. Somehow, someway, that seems to manifest itself differently for different people, but it's still there - naturally.   So personally, I know people are hurting with many issues (I am, I struggle constantly with my flesh).  And this current issue under discussion is a huge one and it's sad.   But justifying it isn't the way to go.  Maybe that increasingly makes one sound like they're "out of touch", bigoted, etc.  I see where the UR "hero" Rob Bell is now saying we should embrace active homosexuality, that the church is "one minute from doing so".  Also he says that we are in trouble/error if we live our lives "based on 2,000 year old letters" - THE BIBLE.  Well, if folks increasingly decide that's outdated and we must be politically correct to be "good, accepting, loving Christians", then count me out.  I believe God still means what He said and says - our sin is sin and is nothing to be proud of or accepted.  It's to be brought to the foot of the cross for forgiveness, cleansing, and deliverance.  And that may require me to have some discomfort.  Paul said he died daily, that he struck a blow to his flesh to bring it under submission (yes, I interpret that figuratively).  But it's still not necessarily pleasant.  It may require me resisting that urge to over eat and say "God help me'.  It may require us to turn our eyes and not look at something on TV or how someone's dressed in the store when looking would feed our lust.  It may require me to live without something in this life that hurts my flesh. 

For instance, regarding this specific issue;  I believe that if someone (either born or developed) has the tendency/drive/attraction to same sex, they may not be able to "help" that (within themselves).  If God doesn't deliver the desire/tendency, He can still help us live for Him.  If we have a propensity, that doesn't mean we're required to act on it and practice it.   In this case, with God's help, seeking faithfulness to Him through celibacy.  That could be painful.  It's an inconvenience.  But God says many things, including that He will comfort us and be our all if we seek and look to Him.  That this life is temporary, and our home is in the heavenlies.  That the struggles and pain of this life don't compare to what He has in store for those who love Him.

I don't think it's even debatable that we are to love and treat with kindness everyone around us who possibly allows it.  But I also don't think we should fail to differentiate between what God says is right and wrong, just because it's not popular or doesn't "feel right" ("lean not to your [my] own understanding").  Also, scripture makes clear a distinction between struggling with sin (not wanting it, not trying to justify it, seeking help with it ["the things i don't want to do, I do, etc."]) vs. accepting it, justifying it, denying it.  God told David "you are the man", and I've had Him say that to me as well.  If anyone is deliberately sinning, without repentance, standing "proud" in their sin, I believe scripture teaches the church to deal with that by confronting it and encouraging repentance and a return to God, including restoration into the fellowship. 

I believe each must decide, in each circumstance, how God would have us deal with each person in each situation.  Always loving, always looking for restoration.  I personally don't go around slamming people for anything, including their lifestyle.  But I believe we ought to know the difference, and be ready to minister a word of reconciliation that's scripturally sound when led by the Spirit to do so. 

It's been said by someone earlier that we should love people into the kingdom.  I agree with that.  However, I also see a difference between the "world" [those that don't know God, have never been spiritually reborn] and those within the church who are teaching and living blatant error and trying to get others to accept it as "their truth".  Scripture says we don't judge the world. His Words have already done that.  We love them and point them to Christ.  However, scripture also says we are to rightly judge things within the church, i.e., those naming the name of Christ.  I don't believe that means harshness or being unloving, but that it does mean being willing to take a stand against a wave of popularity if necessary, and IF and WHEN led,  be willing to minister "here's what God says, and He'll forgive and restore if we ask Him and turn to Him".

God help me and help us all.

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

Excellent. Balanced. Comprehensive.

Loving sinners into the kingdom does not mean justifying sin.

There is deliverance and victory available for those who desire to be pleasing to the Father.

Also, I would add that God established the family as the fabric of the creation. The destruction of families is the single greatest cause of the disruption of communities and individual lives. Where God is there is always family, but He instituted the way of multiplying mankind- not just as some kind of method for growth. Fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers- all ordaind for the security and safety and wholeness of little ones growing strong in a secure environment. "Because iniquity abounds the love of many will grow cold"... this flood of sin in our nation is loosening the bonds of familial affection and the result is a level of torment and confusion among our children such as has never before been known.

But the flood did not begin with homosexuality. We are seeing the latter end of greed and arrogance and lust and worshipping the creation over the creator manifest as a level of confusion that penetrates even the simplist knowledge- like "what gender i am"- and erodes it. This celebration of homosexuality and transgenderism is the tail end of the fall of a house built upon sand.

I do understand dandelion's post tho. I am assuming many of these folks are Christians struggling with homosexuality, and having ministered to them also, I can bear witness that many of them are not celebrating their gayness, but tormented by it. As Cardinal shared, it is a difficult thing to overcome, requirng the help and power of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it is demonic, sometimes it is due to early childhood abuse and trauma, always it is destructive confusion.

We do have to walk in the Spirit, and we ought to be able to minister deliverance and healing to any believer who is in bondage to things like this... but that requires a dedication to the ministry of prayer and counsel - and a unity and love between believers in ministry that is rare in these times.

[jabcat]

Thanks John, much agreement.   :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

Sorry to re-open this discussion, jabcat.

I am not one to follow any trends, trust me. God just had me know many homosexuals in my lifetime, for whatever His purpose was. I did not look for this niche, nor am I concerned with the political correctness of it. 

I understand what you are saying. Almost all the homosexuals I know, who are active in ministry, are not vocal about their sexual preference. They are not trying to get the church to accept homosexuality, as they don't speak about it, except with family and close friends. I also understand we are born with tendencies and that we have temptations. The issue of homosexuality often makes people outcasts of society...... often, within their own family, church, and community. It is not really something that can be explained simply, in a blog.

I believe we are all born dead in our sin.....only through our identity with Christ are we then righteous. Absolutely. I believe all the things you said about sin and not giving into what the world dictates. I am considered conservative in my religious thinking. My life is an open book and I walk the 'straight and narrow', by anyone's criteria. My recreation is spent doing ministry or attending Christian events, or with family/friends. My association with homosexuals does not bring me into worldly activities. So, for me to say this, is very 'out of character'. But, it is hard to ignore what I have seen, observed, prayed about and watched unfold over my lifetime, as well.

I will end the discussion here. I apologize for taking this discussion a place you would have rather it not go. My life's goal is to surrender and trust my life to God, so, I take this, and every spiritual matter, very seriously.

Thanks for your responses, jabcat and eaglesway. I saw your response after taking a while to write this one, EW, so forgive me for not directly addressing your points, as well.

[jabcat]

I haven't read all your post in detail D, I was working on this one as well then saw you'd posted;  but I'll go ahead and post this then read it carefully :)

I do understand dandelion's post tho. I am assuming many of these folks are Christians struggling with homosexuality, and having ministered to them also, I can bear witness that many of them are not celebrating their gayness, but tormented by it. As Cardinal shared, it is a difficult thing to overcome, requirng the help and power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, and when that's the case, our hearts should break for them and cry out in support of them.  We're all clay.  God just wants us to admit it and submit to the Potter to continue shaping us [and His grace cover us] rather than deny it and continue to do what's right in our own eyes.   :2c: 

[jabcat]

You didn't re-open it D, and I'm yacking away too  LOL   :LH:.  Hey, once it's back on the table, well, "here we go".   :coffee:   Probably something good comes of it, one way or another.

I don't personally always (hardly ever) know how to do this or do it well.  I'm more so talking about ideas, ideals, things I believe we should stand for and encourage, as I understand from the scriptures and hopefully the Spirit's leading.

Again, if someone's struggling, then God bless and help them.  We should love and encourage them/each other.

If someone's deceived, blatantly rebellious and being deceiving, then I think there's a place for correction - but only as scripturally sound, in love/the right spirit, and as LED by the SPIRIT. 

[Patinak]

Cardinal,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry.  I will be thinking about what you wrote.

I also wanted to say that I appreciate 'hearing' the thoughts and ideas of everyone who writes on the forum.
I wish I could meet all of you guys.

Pat
 

[ed]

Mixed up?

I learned of the Spirit through experience with the Spirit.  The Book came into play afterwards.

Sure, I was raised in a legalistic fundamentalist church, but I did not meet Christ there.  I met Christ searching for love.

I learned to stick with the Spirit even in my sin.  As an adolescent, I struggled with the same flesh struggle all of us boys do.  I condemned myself for it, but I stuck with Christ and found that Christ stuck with me.

I'm 50 now and sex pretty much is not the struggle.  I struggle with a wife who struggles with faith.  I understand her and love her, and I may be the only one who does, aside from Christ who carries her.   I struggle with a step son who has no conscious of stealing and boundaries and can not overcome addiction...........his son is the reason he still abides in my house.  I have to learn to not hate in the midst of being taken advantage of.  I'd be happier if the boy was gay and had a sound mind.  The only relief I find is to love, and not hate.  I must overlook the sin, in order to love.  "Love covers the multitude of sin".

Christ ministers to us in the midst of our sin, and not half heatedly, we get all of His love.  He does not care if you are gay, He loves, and wants you to do the same.

The SCOTUSA has done us all a favor.  There is no gender in Christ, there is no sex in Christ, there is no marriage in the kingdom of heaven other then us to Christ.

Politics can infuriate people, but in Christ there is no politics.  We always get back to the Kingdom within each individual.  No one individual is better then another, all of us are united in that one Word of God, Jesus Christ.

Have to clock in, I'm sure I did not get to my point if I had one.

Enjoyed all of your sharing.

[Dandelion]

Quickly, in response. To my knowledge, there is no really effective  program for assisting homosexuals out there. There are some attempts, but with little good results.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

This is a pattern I see most often. The child grows up, different and confused. Gets to adolescence or adulthood, and realizes they are homosexual. They and their family are in chaos. The person becomes seriously depressed, often attempting suicide, going to extensive counseling, all kinds of programs, shock-therapy out of state, and so on. This could go on for years. Then one day, they realize if they don't accept who they are on some level, they will either kill themselves or destroy themselves from medication for depression and so on. So, they try to come to grips with the situation, as best as they can. They often resent now, the rest of the world telling them to just stop being a homosexual, after they have gone through all the emotional issues they have had to deal with, and all the treatments that did not work. They have watched their family struggle, as well, and sometimes their parents, spouse or children almost be destroyed.

Then, they decide, I am a homosexual, let me live my life as faithful to God as I can, which can take a few different turns, at this point. They still are on anti-depressents their entire life; go to therapy and struggle, every single day. They dodge the bullets of fellow Christians, continually, both individually and corporately.

They live a lonely existence, with few people who know who they really are. Sometimes, they are a Pastor or some type of Christian minister, and the bullets are more plentiful and more frequent then. But, they go on and praise the Lord, and try to make their lives count for something to bring about God's kingdom.  They love the people who, if they really knew who they were, would do whatever they could to stop them from ministering in a Christian setting. They love and honor a God, whom they sometimes feel bewildered by, as they don't know what to do with their dilemma. They are perplexed why, if they are not to be homosexual, there seems no answer to stop them from being so.

With all the praying, Christian counseling, serving God, and so on, there seems no respite to them.

And they are often very, very alone and lonely people.

This is what the Lord has given me a front seat to. 

Perhaps that better explains my own struggle and upset. As I said, I love them, am there for them, and keep my belief that God wanted a union between a man and a woman, to make a family. I don't understand all the reasons homosexuality happens. Sometimes, I have no good answers for my friends. I must remember not to focus on their storm, but on Christ, as in every aspect of life. It is not always easy for me, I will admit. Their pain is so intense and permeating............ But, I believe God can do the impossible.....I never lose hope, for any situation, and keep the door open for the miracles that could happen.

Thank you again jabcat and eaglesway, for your input. Thanks to ed, as well. It is appreciated.

Please keep myself and my dear friends and family in prayer. We all could so use it.

D.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks Dandelion for pointing out something I didn't cover. I didn't mean to imply that all of them are happy with their "choice" or that to them it was as "easy" as a choice. I had a friend from High School who was one of 20 boys molested by their postman, who gave in to it in college, ended up calling his mother at 3am lots of times, crying saying he didn't want to be that way. He ended up abandoned by his family when he got AIDS, dying in another State. My heart broke for him when I heard his story from a family friend.

As to why most Christian ministries trying to deal with the situation are not effective, I recently discovered some spiritual truths. A 3 way cord is needed to get people released out of the pit of their emotions, where Leviathan drags them down the bottom. Ever try to get 3 people to agree to fast and pray for someone for months? God blessed me to have someone that agreed with me and did for my daughter, and she was finally released (not homosexual, but serious drug addiction).

The root problem lies in the emotions, part of what was alluded to in Peter's sinking into the whipped up waves. As a result of this, my daughter was set free in one hour on my living room couch, and ONLY God gets the glory because no rehab, ect. was used. She is the beginning of what I believe is many like miracles as she knows her God and walks in her calling. To God be all the glory.

I believe this applies because I've personally never met a homosexual or lesbian that was not molested as a child. The emotional pain and shame this brings onto the victim, is the hold Leviathan gets and dragging down begins.

This homosexual phenonmenon is one of the last gasps of a dying nation, and I agree with EW about the flood. All major civilizations that fell had 3 things in common. 1) Homosexuality became rampant, 2) abuse or murder of children became the norm, 3) abuse or euthanasia of the elderly became rampant.

This topic should be on the prayer lists of all Christians because they are openly being taken over by darkness and most Christians seem to only be content with either condemning them or standing idly by and watching their destruction. Who is our brother's keeper?

I am so grieved in my Spirit right now over what is happening to Bruce Jenner as he continues to fall prey to this thing, mutilating his body to it's fulfillment, the whole time being deceived to the extent that he honestly believes he is doing some great thing for humanity, while all the audience to this Satanic plan cheers him for his "courage" and "honesty". Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of others, many of them children, trying to wrestle with this thing without a clue what they are up against.

I cannot help but think of what a horror it will be in the Lord's return when he is restored to his right mind, to realize he has mutilated himself at the unction of a demonic spirit that attached itself to him in childhood. God help us all, for we will give an accounting as well. This nation will be judged and that judgment will not be forthcoming much longer.

I think there is a way to discuss this subject that is spiritually fruitful and maybe helpful to someone struggling with it behind this screen, and a way to discuss it that is titillating to the flesh. I believe we are currently in the former category, and so I can't apologize for adding my  :2c:  Blessings....

[Jock]

Jesus was ministering the Law to the Jews because they had to struggle with it until they reached out for a Savior.

Paul on the other hand was ministering to gentiles most of whom were morally bankrupt. In many city states in Greece, homosexuality was practiced wantonly. The same goes for the women/lesbians. They worshiped false idols/gods and, imo the women were very outspoken in the temple, which carried over into the church.

I figure that Paul was laying things out so the church would have a testimony of godliness. The sinner is welcomed but not the sin however, a grace period should be given because we know the struggles! I just think that a lot of sinful practices were remnants that were finding their way into the church.


Shalom  :Peace2:

Jock.

[jabcat]

Mixed up?

I learned of the Spirit through experience with the Spirit.  The Book came into play afterwards.

Sure, I was raised in a legalistic fundamentalist church, but I did not meet Christ there.  I met Christ searching for love.

I learned to stick with the Spirit even in my sin.  As an adolescent, I struggled with the same flesh struggle all of us boys do.  I condemned myself for it, but I stuck with Christ and found that Christ stuck with me.

I'm 50 now and sex pretty much is not the struggle.  I struggle with a wife who struggles with faith.  I understand her and love her, and I may be the only one who does, aside from Christ who carries her.   I struggle with a step son who has no conscious of stealing and boundaries and can not overcome addiction...........his son is the reason he still abides in my house.  I have to learn to not hate in the midst of being taken advantage of.  I'd be happier if the boy was gay and had a sound mind.  The only relief I find is to love, and not hate.  I must overlook the sin, in order to love.  "Love covers the multitude of sin".

Christ ministers to us in the midst of our sin, and not half heatedly, we get all of His love.  He does not care if you are gay, He loves, and wants you to do the same.

The SCOTUSA has done us all a favor.  There is no gender in Christ, there is no sex in Christ, there is no marriage in the kingdom of heaven other then us to Christ.

Politics can infuriate people, but in Christ there is no politics.  We always get back to the Kingdom within each individual.  No one individual is better then another, all of us are united in that one Word of God, Jesus Christ.

Have to clock in, I'm sure I did not get to my point if I had one.

Enjoyed all of your sharing.

Hi brother ed, please consider, I believe you are actually mixing the kingdom now with the kingdom coming in some of your thoughts you shared, as well as an interpretation issue with the following.  Although you quote him :)  ("neither male nor female") I know you don't care for, or necessarily believe Paul's teachings, but he (and other scriptures) have much to say about sexual function within the church - based on male and female distinctions and what God has ordained and sanctified.  And per this topic, it's not functioning in an active, unrepentant homosexual capacity.  For instance, I would contend if your step-son was [actively, accepting] "gay", he would not have a sound mind.  The scriptures clearly say that those who practice such things reap the consequences.  Also, that others should not approve of them.   It's there in scripture, I can't take it out.  What I have to do is adjust myself to the written Word, not adjust the written Word to me and my wishes.

So IMO, the "no male or female in Christ" must be applied to what is contextually accurate, not attempt to make it mean things that are direct conflict with other plain scripture.  I don't believe this can be spiritualized away. 

I do believe there have been many loving, scripturally sound things said about this over the days, including dandelion's, Cardinal's, and Jocks posts today.  Many things you said ed are edifying as well, I just don't think all of what you said can be backed up with attempts at reconciliation of all scripture - the whole.   IMO however, the issue of whether practicing homosexual behavior is a sin or not is not a debatable topic on TM.  TM is a Christ and Biblical-based site (they're not separated or divided) and will always lean toward scripture vs. someone's individual preference apart from scripture.

That said, I'll ask that if there's anything further anyone would like to add in order to either 1) help the individual who might be struggling with a besetting sin they don't want or 2) shed light on how as a body to better help those who are struggling and need support, love, and victory, then please do.  Otherwise, I'm considering locking the thread and having it as one we can refer people to who may come with either honest questions, as well as those wishing to stir dissension through objection or sowing confusion.  Thanks, have a blessed day.  :HeartThrob:

[ed]

That said, I'll ask that if there's anything further anyone would like to add in order to either 1) help the individual who might be struggling with a besetting sin they don't want or 2) shed light on how as a body to better help those who are struggling and need support, love, and victory, then please do.  Otherwise, I'm considering locking the thread and having it as one we can refer people to who may come with either honest questions, as well as those wishing to stir dissension through objection or sowing confusion.  Thanks, have a blessed day.  :HeartThrob:

It is a good thread Jabcat.............I'd support any way you want to go with it.

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

thanks ed..we can see how it goes.  if it remains productive/helpful, that's what we're here for.  if we start going around in circles we may jump off before we get too dizzy :) 

[micah7:9]

Amen :dsunny:

[anti_nietzsche]

I think that there are different kinds of homosexuality. One is genuine, ie there are men and women who are simply not fit for a marriage to the opposite sex because they do not have the proper sexual orientation by birth. This is the kind of people that experienced same-sex attraction even as children, and they had another puberty also than heterosexual people. It would be wrong to force them to engage in heterosexuality when for them that would feel like rape. And because their orientation is genuine by birth, I think there is no sin in their homosexuality even if they act it out in gay marriage.

But there is also homosexuality that is not genuine and means a straying from your real self. This one is lust based and in essence it is just fornication in another way. This means, if you have a wife, you can't simply leave her even if you are bisexual or desire strongly someone of the same sex. That would be just a new habit and we are demanded to be faithful to our marriage partners.

In both cases however we are called by Christ not to judge and to be compassionate. You cannot make homosexuals the scapegoats of the world and remember that even if you consider it a sin, it is not a sin againt goodness or against love. Humans are supposed to be brothers and there are definetly worse things than homosexuality and remember that homosexuals often love their partners and want to marry them. Paul also calls sexual sins sins against the self. So it's not something that hurts other people and would constitute a crime. So do not judge and be accepting.

God bless you!

[eaglesway]

People who do not understand the purpose for, and glory of, marriage and the union of a man and a woman- in the scheme of God's creation, often seem to stumble at the point of "why" and "who with" regarding sex partners.

Sex outside of marriage is sin(fornication or adultery or homosexuality).

Sexual sin is something many people deal with from childhood for a variety of reasons- hetero and homo sexual.

The solution is to acknowledge the will of God in whatever state of the fallen creation we find ourselves in- again, hetero or homo.... God did not give sex for a source of random sensual fulfillment but as the privilege of a man and a woman committed for life, become one flesh.

Therefore we do not condemn anyone, and offer salvation to all, having once all been sinners of various kinds ourselves, but we do adhere to the truth of God's word concerning creation, that He created them male and female and the purpose of that is to become one flesh.

Sex outside of marriage is sin, and God does not recognize marriage between members of the same sex, altho the state may. For the state it is a legal issue connected tto human responsibilities and priveleges related to long term relationships and the disposition of their practical affairs and the laws regarding such. OK. So be it. Call it marriage- it doesnt make it so.

In the body of Christ, ideally(and as Christians we must deal with the ideal of God's plan for us- acknowledging it even if we have failed or been thwarted in the pursuit of it), we are only to have sexual relations within the sanctity of the marriage bed, between a man and a woman, committed through marriage before God and become one flesh.

What the world does, as they stumble about in darkness, is just the crescendo of confusion and destruction as they pull further and further away from knowing God....."In the last days the love of many will grow cold, because iniquity will abound".

[Cardinal]

 :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

anti, I don't believe the view you have expressed is scripturally sound.  Please see eaglesway's response for a balanced, scriptural view;  i.e., rightly dividing the scripture to be able to accurately reflect the believer's view toward sin.  Recognizing it for what the scriptures say it is, and not condoning it, while still loving the person and offering them respect and a hand toward the Savior for forgiveness, deliverance, strength for endurance, grace for sustenance, as the Lord offers to honest and yielded souls.

I believe plenty has been said in this thread;  room given for alternative views (including pretty clearly non-scriptural) as well as scriptural-based views presented as in eaglesway's response above.  IMO, this thread keeps popping up like a bad rash and I'm locking it.   I believe there's plenty here we can refer people to when the topic comes up again.  I believe most if not all questions have been answered in the thread if one is truly open to look.