What is the universalist's view on homosexuals, lesbians and transexuals as people? I understand they are all loved by Jesus. But they are condemned by the traditional church and Sodom and Gomorrah is preached to mean wickedness practised by homosexuals.
I watched a TV programme about a contraversal church, the Westboro Baptist Church consisting mainly of one large extended family, holds up God Hates Fags banners and say evangelist Billy Graham is going to hell.
Hi Joanna a few weeks back we had that as a discussion topic. if you will check back a few pages on the forum..you will find a lot of
discussion on it. :girlheart:
This is like assuming were going to have ANY kind of sex in heaven :eek:
http://www.matthewvines.com/the-bible-and-homosexuality-why-i-left-college-and-spent-two-years-finding-out-what-the-scriptures-re/
I can not voice the ur position that i don t know.
But i think Matthew Vines and the above link is of
value. Hate is not the way .
Here is a good one to look into I believe
and your right Jonesy !!! :LH:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/how-to-treat-others/msg168853/#msg168853
You know when your "perfect" as the Father ion heaven is perfect , this word means complete and entire and lack nothing , Jesus told us in Matt 5 how we become perfect in the bond of Love , not desires /lusts being cravings for meat / like the wilderness experience of Israel instead of manna or food or anything , but love and they are different , but most think they are the same things and clearly they are not .
I don't think these kinds of things pertain the the heavens or Kingdom realm of God , we are told to have "pure " thoughts and dwell on them and in them holy things of God
They are the earthly things used and teaching of judging and being judges in the earthly realm of thoughts and bring death in judgment
not life to me , just my opinion though ... I say let God judge , He knows everything and we sure do not ,,,, a least I don't know everything :dontknow:
Groups can have some "right" beliefs, but deep down hate and not show the love of God due to their/our own brokenness. Don't go one way or another on what just a TV show or particular group says. What does the Bible say?
UR or not, the scriptures do not condone sin. We are to confess it (admit it) and seek deliverance from it. As sheila said, it's been discussed several times, including recently, so I'm not sure we're going to launch into a long thread again on it here. Basically, a general understood consensus of "most" in the recent long discussion was that any sin is obviously wrong, we're not to reject or hate people, instead we are to love all and seek restoration of people to God and His will. Jesus died for our sins. He wants us out of them, not condoning them. He wants us to overcome in and through Him. We all fail, we all need grace and mercy and love and kindness. But we also need truth, not condoning and excusing. Truth in love.
To address specific point/questions, there are those who would twist the scriptures to their own demise (and the leading astray of others) 2 Peter 3:16, but the scriptures are clear. Sin is sin.
I Cor. 6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." A true experience with God changes us. Immediately, and also over time as we grow in Him.
Some try to convince that certain words don't mean what they truly mean, but Paul addressed it clearly in the following passage, without using "those words". He used clear speech. "Romans 1:26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.."
God loves, is compassionate..but He disciplines, saves and delivers. We all are in need of forgiveness.
Right on, Jabcat. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on May 10, 2015, 06:01:34 PM
Groups can have some "right" beliefs, but deep down hate and not show the love of God due to their/our own brokenness. Don't go one way or another on what just a TV show or particular group says. What does the Bible say?
UR or not, the scriptures do not condone sin. We are to confess it (admit it) and seek deliverance from it. As sheila said, it's been discussed several times, including recently, so I'm not sure we're going to launch into a long thread again on it here. Basically, a general understood consensus of "most" in the recent long discussion was that any sin is obviously wrong, we're not to reject or hate people, instead we are to love all and seek restoration of people to God and His will. Jesus died for our sins. He wants us out of them, not condoning them. He wants us to overcome in and through Him. We all fail, we all need grace and mercy and love and kindness. But we also need truth, not condoning and excusing. Truth in love.
To address specific point/questions, there are those who would twist the scriptures to their own demise (and the leading astray of others) 2 Peter 3:16, but the scriptures are clear. Sin is sin.
I Cor. 6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." A true experience with God changes us. Immediately, and also over time as we grow in Him.
Some try to convince that certain words don't mean what they truly mean, but Paul addressed it clearly in the following passage, without using "those words". He used clear speech. "Romans 1:26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.."
God loves, is compassionate..but He disciplines, saves and delivers. We all are in need of forgiveness.
:goodpost:
I'd just like to add something that stood out to me in verse 6 , as it pertains to UR.
It's the word "inherit. "
Worse case scenario, those who persist in the particular sins of the flesh mentioned there, will not be ruling and reigning with Jesus ....losing that specific blessing, yet this does not at all prevent their ultimate salvation and deliverence.
People can lose, give up, trample, waste their inheritance, and consequently suffer great loss because of it. But in the end, even like the prodigal son who finally came to his senses, our Father sees him even while a far way off, and welcomes him home with great affection.
So, imo, this word "inherit" used there is very important.
:) Joe. :thumbsup: psalm 91:4. Your post led right into a post I'd been working on in the meantime, as the OP got me thinking about some things. At first I said I didn't know if we'd launch into another long thread on this, and then here I go :eek: :laugh:.
Yes, psalm - rewards, position of service. "Well-done good and faithful servant", or "saved as by fire".
------
"Accepted"
I don't believe it's incorrect to say that any sin is wrong. The scriptures are clear on that IMO.
However, I could be open to correction from the Lord on some or all of the following details, as this is what I've come to believe over the years and after being in several different "camps" on some matters.
Some camps say "if you sin at all you're going to hell". Others say "do anything you want, just love and be a good person and you're going to heaven". Some say "if you sin at all Jesus isn't in you". Others say "there is no sin, X,Y,Z isn't really sin, you're OK anyway".
I believe we all sin and are in need of the Savior. Once knowing the Savior, I believe there's a difference between struggling with sin (not wanting it, admitting it, confessing it, seeking deliverance and to overcome) vs. excusing, accepting, ignoring, explaining away sin. I believe true believers (those already saved by grace) to one degree or another can fall into the first group. Here's where it gets controversial (to me), as I know many don't see it the same way or agree with it. I believe a person can be given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and have very little change occur except something internally, i.e., their spirit saved. They may not grow much. They may even stay carnal, still living by the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit. Can they be a Christian? I believe 'yes'. So in that sense they're "accepted". But can they also be living out of God's will? Be rebellious, disobedient? Yes. Paul called a bunch of believers, who were allowing and participating in sin, "saints". However, he also disciplined them, even shamed them; casting one man out of fellowship, saying he'd be destroyed but his spirit saved. He talked about being saved "as by fire". I take that to mean many, even all works burned up/destroyed, nothing done that's worth keeping, except the grace of God that saved the spirit through belief in Jesus Christ. So in another sense, not "accepted" (their/our sins excused, explained away, justified.) I don't believe a person involved in any unrepentant ongoing sin is qualified for leadership or full "acceptance" in ministry, other than being in need of love, compassion, assistance, correction (in love and hope of restoration) of the body. Finally, even though I don't believe it's our place to judge this, some may profess a belief on Jesus but never truly know Him. It's just something said, not something experienced through being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. That's why we're called to judge and deal with obvious behavior within the body, not "see" inside someone's heart (only God does that). Loving - always - but still being willing to call sin sin and encouraging ourselves and others to seek the Master Physician and Deliverer.
I'm sure some find this hard and unacceptable, while others may actually have sound reason to see some of it a bit differently. But hopefully anyone who disagrees can stand on solid scriptural foundation to say otherwise and show where some things may need to be reconsidered in light of rightly divided scripture (like I said, I could be wrong about some of it) rather than just an emotional/"logical" response.
Good word, James :HeartThrob:
sin is error and we all have gone astray from the straight path that leads to Life ,, Jesus Christ foot steps walking in the Spirit of Love
it is not so much of saying it and understanding it as it is in doing it , but we can if the Spirit of truth is within us
Scripture says homosexuality is sin just like other sexual sins and indeed like all sin which is what Jesus Christ died for, and Jesus Christ's blood on the cross will eventually reconcile all on the earth and in the heavens to God. So, despite the fact that the secular court system is slowly but surely legitimizing the homosexual lifestyle, it is still sin, but other sinners, which includes all of us, don't have the right or the authority to condemn any other sinners, including homosexuals, because we're all guilty of sin. We believers just happen to be justified through Christ, but that doesn't give us the right to condemn others. Christ will judge unbelievers before the great white throne who will then go into the second death-the lake of fire. Christ will also judge believers at the dais of Christ where our unworthy works will be burned up, but we'll be saved and rewarded for our good works. Eventually though even unbelievers will be saved at the consummation of the eons when all evil is nullified and even death is abolished. It is then that God will be all in all. I believe all this because it is what the word of God says. I think, regardless of whether the Supreme Court legitimizes homosexual marriage or not, the word of God still says homosexuality is sin, but we need to remember that we're sinners too. So we need to teach our children well about why it may be legal for people of the same gender to get married, God says it's sin. But that doesn't mean we should picket events like funerals condemning homosexuals with signs that say "God Hates Fags" because that sends the wrong message about God who loves all his creatures even though God will eventually remove all evil from the universe. I think people like the Westboro Baptist Church are misguided and preaching hate instead of love, and they're dishonoring God in the process. I think we just have to know that some civil laws don't harmonize with the word of God. Abortion and homosexual marriage may be legal, but that doesn't mean they're right. If we live in society, we have to abide by the laws of society, but we still have the right to believe what we want and live our lives according to our beliefs as long as we don't violate the laws of the society in which we live. I'm not surprised that homosexual marriage is legal now because the law is based on civil rights not the word of God. If people think secular civil law should be based on the law of God, they might want to consider the fact that sharia law is supposed to be based on somebody's idea of what God's law is. Then others might want to base the law on what Hebrew law says in the Hebrew scriptures which would put a lot of other folks besides homosexuals in jeopardy of actually be killed for committing certain sins. So, I guess maybe we should just try to survive in the society we're in, but we need to stay mindful that we need to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet because that's supposedly what all the law boils down to.
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)
Most though not all posts i have seen do see homosexuality as a sin though it is too unfairly picked
on as if worse than others. I am a little surprised because what i really apreciated here is a cocern for
original greek meanings. Once again i put here MatthewVine s link where in (the video ) he offers original insight into greek text to argue that it was more a promiscuous sexual activity in the corinthian
verse and thus reckons that there is scope forand no condemnation of loving relations even homosexual ones. If you are really interested in a fresh angle watch the video in link and comment after that.
http://www.matthewvines.com/the-bible-and-homosexuality-why-i-left-college-and-spent-two-years-finding-out-what-the-scriptures-re/
newlove, I'm sure there are many who haven't as yet heard the "fresh angle", but to many that argument is known, ie., those "contested" words in the greek,. As far as "the greek", there's a difference between understanding and rightly dividing the scriptures vs. "wresting the scriptures" as Peter speaks about in the reference I provided.
Also, re: specific words, please consider the words Paul used in the Romans verses I also posted. Even IF MV was correct about a different interpretation of those specific words (which I don't believe he is [primarily and exclusively so]) there's still much other contextual scripture to reconcile. It all has to fit together to form a whole. In Romans, Paul didn't use those "contested" words. He used plain speech. Man with man, woman with woman, lusting for each other, being with each other.
Also, I personally think most posters actually go out of their way to include any sin, not just single out a specific one - although that's what this thread was specifically started as. I'll add the seemingly required notation :) we all sin and need a Savior, and love is vital.
I don't know if Matthew Vines knows Jesus or not. That's between Him and God. But I do believe he's wrong about this topic and is twisting the scripture to try to justify the unjustifiable (except through deliverance through the cross of Christ).
from Christianity Today - "Vines's new book, God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships, expounds further on the arguments made in his video. His aim is not to present new information, but to synthesize gay-affirming arguments and make them accessible for a broader and younger audience. Vines does a good job fulfilling this goal. Unfortunately, his book consists of some logical and exegetical fallacies, and it does not address the shortcomings of the authors to whom it is most indebted. And although Vines professes a "high view" of the Bible, he ultimately fails to apply uncomfortable biblical truths in a way that embraces a costly discipleship.
Vines notes the use of arsenokoitai in the vice lists of three second-century texts. Even though he admits the vice lists are of limited help, he tries to link arsenokoitai to economic exploitation through word association. Vines might have a case if every vice in each list is related to economic exploitation. But these lists contain a variety of vices, related and unrelated. For instance, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 mentions idolaters, adulterers, drunkards, and slanderers.
Vines also asserts that arsenokoitai is only minimally associated with sexual sin because it is not always mentioned alongside other sexual sins—and when it is, it is separated by three words. This is insignificant, and ignores other, more relevant historical information. The Greek Old Testament was probably the most widely read piece of literature among first-century Jews and Christians. The two words, arsen (male) and koite (bed), occur together six times in its pages. On four occasions, the reference is to women lying with men, and on the other two (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13) the reference is to men lying with men. Vines and others who rely upon second-century texts to explain arsenokoitai, dismissing the Greek Old Testament, are inconsistent in applying background information. Again, their biases prevail in their attempt to interpret Scripture.
For Vines, Leviticus 20:13 is not a universal condemnation against same-sex intercourse. Rather, it is "centered around the proper ordering of gender roles in a patriarchal society." Men were not to act like women by taking the receptive role. Ironically, Vines dismisses Philo (a first century Jewish philosopher) for explicitly linking Sodom's sins to same-sex behavior, but then affirms Philo for linking the sin of Leviticus 20:13 to "being treated like women." This is another example of bias and an inconsistent use of background information. If the sin of Leviticus 20:13 is merely a matter of men adopting the woman's sexual role, then only the man in the receptive role should be condemned. However the verse states that "both of them have committed an abomination." Both men are condemned."
Quote from: jabcat link=topic=13358.msg186117#msg186117 dat431275657
:) Joe. :thumbsup: psalm 91:4. Your post led right into a post I'd been working on in the meantime, as the OP got me thinking about some things. At first I said I didn't know if we'd launch into another long thread on this, and then here I go :eek: :laugh:.
Yes, psalm - rewards, position of service. "Well-done good and faithful servant", or "saved as by fire".
------
"Accepted"
I don't believe it's incorrect to say that any sin is wrong. The scriptures are clear on that IMO.
However, I could be open to correction from the Lord on some or all of the following details, as this is what I've come to believe over the years and after being in several different "camps" on some matters.
Some camps say "if you sin at all you're going to hell". Others say "do anything you want, just love and be a good person and you're going to heaven". Some say "if you sin at all Jesus isn't in you". Others say "there is no sin, X,Y,Z isn't really sin, you're OK anyway".
I believe we all sin and are in need of the Savior. Once knowing the Savior, I believe there's a difference between struggling with sin (not wanting it, admitting it, confessing it, seeking deliverance and to overcome) vs. excusing, accepting, ignoring, explaining away sin. I believe true believers (those already saved by grace) to one degree or another can fall into the first group. Here's where it gets controversial (to me), as I know many don't see it the same way or agree with it. I believe a person can be given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and have very little change occur except something internally, i.e., their spirit saved. They may not grow much. They may even stay carnal, still living by the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit. Can they be a Christian? I believe 'yes'. So in that sense they're "accepted". But can they also be living out of God's will? Be rebellious, disobedient? Yes. Paul called a bunch of believers, who were allowing and participating in sin, "saints". However, he also disciplined them, even shamed them; casting one man out of fellowship, saying he'd be destroyed but his spirit saved. He talked about being saved "as by fire". I take that to mean many, even all works burned up/destroyed, nothing done that's worth keeping, except the grace of God that saved the spirit through belief in Jesus Christ. So in another sense, not "accepted" (their/our sins excused, explained away, justified.) I don't believe a person involved in any unrepentant ongoing sin is qualified for leadership or full "acceptance" in ministry, other than being in need of love, compassion, assistance, correction (in love and hope of restoration) of the body. Finally, even though I don't believe it's our place to judge this, some may profess a belief on Jesus but never truly know Him. It's just something said, not something experienced through being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. That's why we're called to judge and deal with obvious behavior within the body, not "see" inside someone's heart (only God does that). Loving - always - but still being willing to call sin sin and encouraging ourselves and others to seek the Master Physician and Deliverer.
I'm sure some find this hard and unacceptable, while others may actually have sound reason to see some of it a bit differently. But hopefully anyone who disagrees can stand on solid scriptural foundation to say otherwise and show where some things may need to be reconsidered in light of rightly divided scripture (like I said, I could be wrong about some of it) rather than just an emotional/"logical" response.
Nothing but agreement here from me on what you have shared, particularly the " qualified for leadership " part. Because I do think that is what Paul is specifically targeting here, pertaining to the reign of God.
Bottom line, as I see it, sons of God walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit of God, and crucify the flesh and it's lusts and desires as we grow by His grace, His chastening and humbling of us. It seems an impossible thing to do in our own strength, and is !
This is one of the reasons why our good Father gives us His Spirit to abide with and in us, to mature us and grow us up in Christ.... and as our clay yields to the pressures of this Potter's work, even our very thoughts are changed and made new! Our minds are conformed to the way He thinks about things! Which, since He created us...is the way He intended us to be viewing things.
We are to present our very bodies to Him as a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service. Ok Lord, here I am. Your will be done. It's really that simple. He'll show you the way! :)
Yes I see what you mean James like those whom try to ''change the times and laws '' spoken of in Daniel ..
the Laws of God are pretty straightforward and nothing is to be judged before the time when the Lord comes to rebuke such things ,
Even Michael did not make railings and fights and such things against satan , but had the Lord rebuke him over the body of Moses being the laws of God given to mankind to keep him right with God in that space of time .
and those whom do not allow marriage ! when Paul says it is better to marry than to burn
I believe he meant burning lusts inside themselves to go off and do unthinkable acts .
and yet they ,, claim chastity in the Church before men
and are doing those vile things in secret that are a shame to nature itself .
petophiles and homosexual acts sodomy with women and men and the like ,, considered acts , deeds sinning against their own bodies !
I dont like to think about this stuff , but it is what it is ... :sigh:
..and sorry newlove if I come across as harsh...it all needs to be about help and restoration, and sometimes we get caught up in the details..we're all struggling with something...i struggle every day...we just need to surrender in His presence..love to you
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on May 10, 2015, 08:46:04 PM
Quote from: jabcat link=topic=13358.msg186117#msg186117 dat431275657
:) Joe. :thumbsup: psalm 91:4. Your post led right into a post I'd been working on in the meantime, as the OP got me thinking about some things. At first I said I didn't know if we'd launch into another long thread on this, and then here I go :eek: :laugh:.
Yes, psalm - rewards, position of service. "Well-done good and faithful servant", or "saved as by fire".
------
"Accepted"
I don't believe it's incorrect to say that any sin is wrong. The scriptures are clear on that IMO.
However, I could be open to correction from the Lord on some or all of the following details, as this is what I've come to believe over the years and after being in several different "camps" on some matters.
Some camps say "if you sin at all you're going to hell". Others say "do anything you want, just love and be a good person and you're going to heaven". Some say "if you sin at all Jesus isn't in you". Others say "there is no sin, X,Y,Z isn't really sin, you're OK anyway".
I believe we all sin and are in need of the Savior. Once knowing the Savior, I believe there's a difference between struggling with sin (not wanting it, admitting it, confessing it, seeking deliverance and to overcome) vs. excusing, accepting, ignoring, explaining away sin. I believe true believers (those already saved by grace) to one degree or another can fall into the first group. Here's where it gets controversial (to me), as I know many don't see it the same way or agree with it. I believe a person can be given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and have very little change occur except something internally, i.e., their spirit saved. They may not grow much. They may even stay carnal, still living by the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit. Can they be a Christian? I believe 'yes'. So in that sense they're "accepted". But can they also be living out of God's will? Be rebellious, disobedient? Yes. Paul called a bunch of believers, who were allowing and participating in sin, "saints". However, he also disciplined them, even shamed them; casting one man out of fellowship, saying he'd be destroyed but his spirit saved. He talked about being saved "as by fire". I take that to mean many, even all works burned up/destroyed, nothing done that's worth keeping, except the grace of God that saved the spirit through belief in Jesus Christ. So in another sense, not "accepted" (their/our sins excused, explained away, justified.) I don't believe a person involved in any unrepentant ongoing sin is qualified for leadership or full "acceptance" in ministry, other than being in need of love, compassion, assistance, correction (in love and hope of restoration) of the body. Finally, even though I don't believe it's our place to judge this, some may profess a belief on Jesus but never truly know Him. It's just something said, not something experienced through being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior. That's why we're called to judge and deal with obvious behavior within the body, not "see" inside someone's heart (only God does that). Loving - always - but still being willing to call sin sin and encouraging ourselves and others to seek the Master Physician and Deliverer.
I'm sure some find this hard and unacceptable, while others may actually have sound reason to see some of it a bit differently. But hopefully anyone who disagrees can stand on solid scriptural foundation to say otherwise and show where some things may need to be reconsidered in light of rightly divided scripture (like I said, I could be wrong about some of it) rather than just an emotional/"logical" response.
Nothing but agreement here from me on what you have shared, particularly the " qualified for leadership " part. Because I do think that is what Paul is specifically targeting here, pertaining to the reign of God.
Bottom line, as I see it, sons of God walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit of God, and crucify the flesh and it's lusts and desires as we grow by His grace, His chastening and humbling of us. It seems an impossible thing to do in our own strength, and is !
This is one of the reasons why our good Father gives us His Spirit to abide with and in us, to mature us and grow us up in Christ.... and as our clay yields to the pressures of this Potter's work, even our very thoughts are changed and made new! Our minds are conformed to the way He thinks about things! Which, since He created us...is the way He intended us to be viewing things.
We are to present our very bodies to Him as a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service. Ok Lord, here I am. Your will be done. It's really that simple. He'll show you the way! :)
Amen!!! to the both of you :iagree: :HeartThrob: so true , so very true
Jabcat : I do not have knowledge of greek to argue
against your points. Although i feel you know what you are talking about and would never march with a
" God hates fags " placard. Mark Vines appeared to mea sincere young man intersted in durability of relations. Standing by what you are saying what can you suggest he does ? Merely stop acting on his impulses and remain celibate. I fear you do and you dorealize this means great misery and alienation for him and many more. I never had to live with an interdiction against my (straight) sex.uality. Is that
it at the end of the day : "tough" ! As It is indeed very tough.
Thanks for the kind reply. I'll answer point by point, fair questions :).
Some things I believe I know what I'm talking about, many other things not so sure. A whole bunch of things I know I don't.
No, I wouldn't march with such a sign. I believe it's shameful and reprehensible. I'm not much of a "marcher" or protester anyways. My such sins fall along the lines of not caring enough, not loving enough, not praying enough for those hurting.
My answer regarding Mr. Vines, myself, and anyone regarding sin is, admit it, confess it, resist it, ask God for healing and deliverance. As we're often likely to fail, ask for forgiveness when we do, accept that forgiveness, and continue looking to Jesus for help. I believe he forgives us, carries us, and covers us when we're honest and broken before Him. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble" James 4:6. I take that to mean, to us, when we come as "God have mercy upon me a sinner". With everything and with all sin and weakness, we are to look to Him for filling and fulfillment. Desiring nothing outside His will. Sometimes I'm personally able to do that, probably most often, not. But the statement to us is "looking to Jesus, the author and finisher [completer, perfecter] of our faith". So let me answer TO me, instead of MV; if I'm a glutton, should I accept it and pursue that? or should I turn away from the cabinet or table when I've had enough, and look to Jesus for strength to resist and do without what I don't need? I think the latter. I fail often. But I still think the latter. If I think my neighbor has something I want, should i sit and look at it and lust after it? Or stop looking at it, confess to God my coveteousness and unthankfulness, get my thoughts on Jesus, thank Him for what He's already given me, ask Him for strength and grace to be more thankful and less worldly-minded? I think the latter. I fail, but I still think the latter...etc..
Yes, you're right. At the end of the day - it's tough. A call to discipleship is often something I personally fight against, because carrying a cross ain't easy. For me it's often more "natural" to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Mercifully for us, as psalm91 alluded to, Jesus carried the "big" cross, and His mercy and strength is available for us if we trust, rest in Him and walk in Him. Blessings. :2c:
Coming from a heterosexual guy with plenty of experience who has been celibate by choice for over seven years, celibacy is not "great misery and alienation." You just concentrate on the higher vibration of spiritual love and deny the desire of soulish satisfaction.
"The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22,23)
PS: I even humbly rejected another marriage proposal today.
Thanks Tom. You said in a couple of sentences what I struggled to say in half a book. :mblush:
Quote from: Joanna on May 10, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
What is the universalist's view on homosexuals, lesbians and transexuals as people? I understand they are all loved by Jesus. But they are condemned by the traditional church and Sodom and Gomorrah is preached to mean wickedness practised by homosexuals.
I watched a TV programme about a contraversal church, the Westboro Baptist Church consisting mainly of one large extended family, holds up God Hates Fags banners and say evangelist Billy Graham is going to hell.
Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most ungodly, cultic groups there are operating as Christians, but full of hate and great champions of eternal torment.
An absolute blight on the name of Jesus Christ.
Jabcat : I must be brief but I do apreciate your replies honesty and modesty included . I note the process you state re facing sin and for myself shall renew efforts to fight by those steps..
Tom : yes celibacy I m sure has fine points and value may it bring you joy It depends where you re at
By alienation and misery I meant the lack of allowing a relationship in wholer sense not just sex Probably harder for a younger man which is not my case but is for MV . He did nt seem to happy with the idea of denying
himself and I too would find it hard as a young man .
God bless . Goodnight .
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Tom on January 15, 1970, 10:50:23 PM
Coming from a heterosexual guy with plenty of experience who has been celibate by choice for over seven years, celibacy is not "great misery and alienation." You just concentrate on the higher vibration of spiritual love and deny the desire of soulish satisfaction.
"The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22,23)
PS: I even humbly rejected another marriage proposal today.
Inquiring minds want to know..since you brought it up here. Was it that neighbor? :)
I like that you brought up the fruits of the Spirit, Tom, because self-control is such a FREEING fruit in areas such as are being discussed in this thread.
And it's not like an empty life just because the Lord is crucifying our sins of the flesh....the empty tomb is right around the corner from the cross, consisting of life more abundant.
There is no substitute for pure JOY, a fruit of His Spirit. Though man tries in so many unfulfilling ways, bringing harm to himself....
He is the life and he came to give us his life in abundance.
:HeartThrob:
I'm not sure which neighbor you're talking about, sis, but it wasn't them. It was another lady I've known for awhile who asked me before too. There's a lot of widows and divorcees here where I live, but so far I've managed to fight them all off. A guy could just take his pick if he wanted to though. Never say never, right?
I actually experienced celibacy before in my life for awhile when I was a "younger man" and decided to get away from it all up in the mountains to clean up my act and get into God. I lived in a teepee for awhile and later in an old cabin without any indoor plumbing or electricity. I was poor by worldly standards, but I was rich with the blessing of being in the spirit alone in the woods just me and God. I had to walk long distances to get to civilization when I wanted to. For awhile I had to walk a couple of miles down off a mountain in deep snow to get to a road and hitchhike/walk another seven miles to town to go to a little church on Sunday. I almost married a lady in that church, but I decided to hitch back east to look for some steady work. When I was a kid I used to wonder how the nuns and priests could live without having lovers, but now I understand. It's not for everybody, but celibacy can be a blessing just as marriage can be. The thing is that even married folks have to exercise self-control because they have to resist temptation to hook up with other folks. So either way you're going to have to be faithful to a commitment. I'm not saying I'll never get together with another lady, but right now it's just me and God again.
May 5, 12:37 letter. :)
You've lived a very adventurous life and I still think you should write an autobiography. It truly is amazing all the things the Lord brought you through to where you are now, and serving him like you do on the board, and willing to discuss anything with whoever walks through the doors.
You are a very cool brother. :friendstu:
God bless ya, sis, but I'm just a humble regular guy who tries to speak the truth.
Quote from: jabcat on May 10, 2015, 06:01:34 PM
Groups can have some "right" beliefs, but deep down hate and not show the love of God due to their/our own brokenness. Don't go one way or another on what just a TV show or particular group says. What does the Bible say?
UR or not, the scriptures do not condone sin. We are to confess it (admit it) and seek deliverance from it. As sheila said, it's been discussed several times, including recently, so I'm not sure we're going to launch into a long thread again on it here. Basically, a general understood consensus of "most" in the recent long discussion was that any sin is obviously wrong, we're not to reject or hate people, instead we are to love all and seek restoration of people to God and His will. Jesus died for our sins. He wants us out of them, not condoning them. He wants us to overcome in and through Him. We all fail, we all need grace and mercy and love and kindness. But we also need truth, not condoning and excusing. Truth in love.
To address specific point/questions, there are those who would twist the scriptures to their own demise (and the leading astray of others) 2 Peter 3:16, but the scriptures are clear. Sin is sin.
I Cor. 6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." A true experience with God changes us. Immediately, and also over time as we grow in Him.
Some try to convince that certain words don't mean what they truly mean, but Paul addressed it clearly in the following passage, without using "those words". He used clear speech. "Romans 1:26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.."
God loves, is compassionate..but He disciplines, saves and delivers. We all are in need of forgiveness.
:thumbsup:
Hello Jabcat ,Hello Everyone
The sun is out strong this morning in France.
Jabcat : I have been re reading all posts on this thread
and wish to clarify something about this phraseof mine :
Quote
"Most though not all posts i have seen do see homosexuality as a sin though it is too unfairly picked
on as if worse than others"
What i meant was most posters agree that it is unfairly seen as worse (by others)and NOT that they think it is
worse. Perhaps you read me wrong i think judging
by your reply which alarmed me.
Regarding this question my posts are chiefly exoratoryi see myself on the way to understanding
but not fully there on this.
I hope joanna will say what she thinks
after all this.
Tom, congratulations on your almost engagement! :laughing7:
:cloud9: We look at what Eve (the stony heart of Adam taken out so he could see what it looked like) did, and assume that it was a one time mistake, but it is the NATURE of Eve to choose the flesh (what she could see and touch, the natural realm), instead of the Spirit she couldn't see. This is the very root of respect of persons and it goes all the way back into the garden. The serpent was more SUBTLE than all the other beasts of the field.
We've all been given this same heart that will ALWAYS choose the natural realm over the spiritual, because that's the nature of the beast. Only the grace and mercy of God expressed thru the restraining hand of the Spirit keeps us from doing/manifesting what is in our hearts, ie. if not for the grace of God, there go I.
Most people would be shocked to know that they have a homosexual spirit residing in their heart, that they have chosen not to give life to, but it is there none the less, because ALL SIN IS COMMON TO MAN. He made us from the dust of the earth, and the serpent and his seed were already cast down to the earth. That was not an accident; He planned it because we needed something to overcome. These are the HIDDEN things of the heart that He wants us to allow Him to cleanse us of in this hour. If it's hidden, you don't know it's there unless it's manifested outwardly.
Therefore if you judge them and it's in your heart, by the same measure you are judged. My :2c:
Good post Card. As I have said before, ( I think I am agreeing with you here) there is a difference between judging/discerning and judging/condemning. There are three different Greek words that are interchangeably translated "judge/judging/damnation/condemnation" which causes some confusion. To discern is to be aware, and rightly so, that sin in the flesh is the culprit, which we have all walked in in its various forms- where to judge/condemn is not given to man, to condemn the person.
While it is given to man to condemn sin, in a measure- it is not until his own sins are fully condemned in Christ through the death of the flesh(I have died, yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me). Then having that heart of love one may discern for others, and offer what the Spirit leads.....Sometimes reproof but most often mercy, which bears its own reproof of sin as it brings light.
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,...
Forgiveness received for sin in the flesh becomes a spirit of reconciliation towards those who are still in the flesh- while discerning sin and offering deliverance through the One who has condemned sin in the flesh - offering His own flesh on a cross to receive the condemnation.
Therefore judgement is automatic for those who are in the flesh. Sometimes we think they need the re-inforcement of our condemnation, but God does not ask or command that of us. "I did not come to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved(delivered/healed/restored).
He does ask and command our discernment, and where much is forgiven there is much love, and the love must be there first, or the judgment is perverted into condemnation, which activates back to the condemner in "Woe unto you who condemns another while doing the same things yourself- for if you are breaking the law in one point, you are a lawbreaker".
A friend of mine used to say, "I am a beggar who was given bread, leading other beggars to the Giver, who found me".
I am a leper who was healed, offering this healing to other leppers- not in denying their leprosy- but leading them to the healer of it. This is the leprosy of sin. All are born with it. It manifests in various ways and at various times in the lives of those who are in Adam. It is conquered in Christ.
Picked this up on the net
"JUDGY & JUDGIER" OR "IT'S ELEMENTARY"
James 2:1-13
Krinos, Anakrinos, Diakrinos
Krites, Hupo-Krites
DISCERNING THINGS ON THE OUTSIDE
Discerning signs – (Matthew 16:1-4)
Discerning actions – (Matthew 7:15-20)
DISCERNING THINGS THAT ARE ON THE INSIDE (PICTURE OF AVOCADOS)
Desires – (James 1:14)
Motives – ((Hebrews 4:12)
We strive for objectivity, but must confess levels of subjectivity in most of our judgments.
Our judgments and discernments are meant for up-building the Kingdom of God and the individuals that make up that
community
.
How we judge and live with others is a reflection of the faith that we are living out.
We all have to make judgments. We do not have to be judgmental.
In this life, our default when it comes to judgment should be mercy. (James 2:13)
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
"So speak and so act" means we must first consider our own motives, and allow the word to sort them out in us, so that we are walking in the law that brings freedom.
I agree that sin is common to all mankind, and it just manifests differently in different people. I also agree that judgment is not just about condemnation. I think we use judgment every time we make any decision about anything. I also agree that we need to walk the walk if we talk the talk to provide a good example of the reality that God's love changes lives.
:2c: I'm just wondering if there was as much coverage and a "movement" going on for say child molesters, cold blooded murders, rapists if our thoughts and speech would be different? We all know, no one "sin" is greater or lesser....would there be this reaching out and understanding?
I personally think it would be quite different, it just seems that the sin of homosexuality is not looked on with the same view as a cold blooded killer, homosexuality is not a violent "sin" so it can be embraced with more reaching out in love? I guess I am just looking at homosexuality as a "trojan horse." I will say that it's troubling times and my glass darkly is not getting any clearer. Again just my :2c: :HeartThrob:
I agree that all sin is sin regardless of what kind of sin, and we should always try to deal with the sin of our brothers and sisters in love not condemnation being ever mindful that we're also guilty of sin while doing so. I think some sin may be more severe than other sin though, but God is the judge. I think the reason some sin may be talked about more is because it may be politically controversial and more publicized in the news as is what's going on right now with recent legal issues. I agree that we're all guilty of sin, and there are various forms of sexual sin that aren't talked about as much as another. I think most folks have agreed that we all sin, and we shouldn't condemn anybody else for their sin. But I think we need to be honest about any sin when it's discussed, and not rationalize it by saying either somebody was born that way or that's just what they desire because that's the way they've always been. Behavior can be changed especially if you're inspired to do so. I know from experience in my own life. I've always been a practicing heterosexual, but there are other things in my life that needed to be changed. God's love changes lives. I'm far from perfect, but I'm in a lot better shape now than I used to be only by the grace of God. I don't think anybody here is saying anybody else should be condemned for their sin, just that they should keep it real about what is sin and what to do about it.
Quote from: Tom on May 11, 2015, 12:33:52 AM
...decided to get away from it all up in the mountains to clean up my act and get into God. I lived in a teepee for awhile and later in an old cabin without any indoor plumbing or electricity. I was poor by worldly standards, but I was rich with the blessing of being in the spirit alone in the woods just me and God. I had to walk long distances...
I never lived in a teepee, but always wanted to.. did live in a cabin minus plumbing and heating tho and to this day it's still my favorite place I ever lived.. It was short lived though, and I only walked short distances.. But I did find God, or rather He found me, in the mountains, some few hundred miles away from that cabin locale.. And then some time later I really became a hermit, well part time - just me and God, when I was raising my kids, and they went to school, hubby was driving over the road then.. lots of time for seeking, for prayer, reading, study and listening in the quietness of (which we all know as) His voice..
:smile:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 12, 2015, 06:44:45 PM
:2c: I'm just wondering if there was as much coverage and a "movement" going on for say child molesters, cold blooded murders, rapists if our thoughts and speech would be different? We all know, no one "sin" is greater or lesser....would there be this reaching out and understanding?
I personally think it would be quite different, it just seems that the sin of homosexuality is not looked on with the same view as a cold blooded killer, homosexuality is not a violent "sin" so it can be embraced with more reaching out in love? I guess I am just looking at homosexuality as a "trojan horse." I will say that it's troubling times and my glass darkly is not getting any clearer. Again just my :2c: :HeartThrob:
I would hope, that after the rapist has been put in prison, there would be the same reaching out. Predatory sins must be handled at law first, to restrain the predator. And homosexuality is still a serious sin. Like adultery, it was a stoning offense under the Old Covenant. But in my opinion, the opposite of what you are saying is tru. Among Christians, homosexuality is the "singled out sin" that is viewed with greater hostility, while greed, obesity, jealous ambition, gossip, etc- get little attention. Ministers who have affairs are rehabilitated and put back in the ministry. Ministers who get rich on the gospel and steal from the saints do just fine. A minister or a saint who has a problem with homosexual tendencies is done for for good if exposed. Homosexuals are demonized among Christians. They are just sinners. We dont stone adulterers any more. Or homosexuals. Its a new covenant based on better promises and a word of reconciliation, as well as a word of repentance. But the power is in a changed life. I don't believe in homosexual Christians anymore than I agree with adulterous Christians. I believe in redeemed people reconciled, converted and then progressively growing into disciples of Christ, through both the mercy and the chastisements of a loving father.
It's peaceful out there in the mountains. So you can concentrate on "His voice."
Quote from: Tom on May 12, 2015, 07:10:04 PM
I agree that all sin is sin regardless of what kind of sin, and we should always try to deal with the sin of our brothers and sisters in love not condemnation being ever mindful that we're also guilty of sin while doing so. I think some sin may be more severe than other sin though, but God is the judge. I think the reason some sin may be talked about more is because it may be politically controversial and more publicized in the news as is what's going on right now with recent legal issues. I agree that we're all guilty of sin, and there are various forms of sexual sin that aren't talked about as much as another. I think most folks have agreed that we all sin, and we shouldn't condemn anybody else for their sin. But I think we need to be honest about any sin when it's discussed, and not rationalize it by saying either somebody was born that way or that's just what they desire because that's the way they've always been. Behavior can be changed especially if you're inspired to do so. I know from experience in my own life. I've always been a practicing heterosexual, but there are other things in my life that needed to be changed. God's love changes lives. I'm far from perfect, but I'm in a lot better shape now than I used to be only by the grace of God. I don't think anybody here is saying anybody else should be condemned for their sin, just that they should keep it real about what is sin and what to do about it.
That sounds reasonable and down to earth to me.. Practical.. :smile:
..."love not condemnation" :iagree: I consider myself to have one commandment - love
..but this doesn't mean I have to throw discernment out the door and say there is no sin, or sin is relative, that's man's thinking! No one I know is perfect! Including (or especially) me.. I don't speak a list of sins. Some of the nicest folks I know are gay. I don't say either way to them what I think about homosexuality, as they've never asked me. They know I'm a christian and hopefully, they know I love them. Until i detect the Spirit of the Lord directing me otherwise, that's the only seed I can plant.. If I get the chance to tell them about the Lord, i can surely do that w/o even addressing the issue of homosexuality.. It's not my job to convince anyone of sin, that, to me, is the Holy spirit's job/working
Quote from: Tom on May 12, 2015, 08:03:02 PM
It's peaceful out there in the mountains. So you can concentrate on "His voice."
:smile: :smile:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 08:02:47 PM
I would hope, that after the rapist has been put in prison, there would be the same reaching out. Predatory sins must be handled at law first, to restrain the predator. And homosexuality is still a serious sin. Like adultery, it was a stoning offense under the Old Covenant. But in my opinion, the opposite of what you are saying is tru. Among Christians, homosexuality is the "singled out sin" that is viewed with greater hostility, while greed, obesity, jealous ambition, gossip, etc- get little attention. Ministers who have affairs are rehabilitated and put back in the ministry. Ministers who get rich on the gospel and steal from the saints do just fine. A minister or a saint who has a problem with homosexual tendencies is done for for good if exposed. Homosexuals are demonized among Christians. They are just sinners. We dont stone adulterers any more. Or homosexuals. Its a new covenant based on better promises and a word of reconciliation, as well as a word of repentance. But the power is in a changed life. I don't believe in homosexual Christians anymore than I agree with adulterous Christians. I believe in redeemed people reconciled, converted and then progressively growing into disciples of Christ, through both the mercy and the chastisements of a loving father.
:Gclap: :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 08:02:47 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 12, 2015, 06:44:45 PM
:2c: I'm just wondering if there was as much coverage and a "movement" going on for say child molesters, cold blooded murders, rapists if our thoughts and speech would be different? We all know, no one "sin" is greater or lesser....would there be this reaching out and understanding?
I personally think it would be quite different, it just seems that the sin of homosexuality is not looked on with the same view as a cold blooded killer, homosexuality is not a violent "sin" so it can be embraced with more reaching out in love? I guess I am just looking at homosexuality as a "trojan horse." I will say that it's troubling times and my glass darkly is not getting any clearer. Again just my :2c: :HeartThrob:
I would hope, that after the rapist has been put in prison, there would be the same reaching out. Predatory sins must be handled at law first, to restrain the predator. And homosexuality is still a serious sin. Like adultery, it was a stoning offense under the Old Covenant. But in my opinion, the opposite of what you are saying is tru. Among Christians, homosexuality is the "singled out sin" that is viewed with greater hostility, while greed, obesity, jealous ambition, gossip, etc- get little attention. Ministers who have affairs are rehabilitated and put back in the ministry. Ministers who get rich on the gospel and steal from the saints do just fine. A minister or a saint who has a problem with homosexual tendencies is done for for good if exposed. Homosexuals are demonized among Christians. They are just sinners. We dont stone adulterers any more. Or homosexuals. Its a new covenant based on better promises and a word of reconciliation, as well as a word of repentance. But the power is in a changed life. I don't believe in homosexual Christians anymore than I agree with adulterous Christians. I believe in redeemed people reconciled, converted and then progressively growing into disciples of Christ, through both the mercy and the chastisements of a loving father.
I really meant no more than putting down thoughts that wandered into my thinking of the subject. I do not have an argument nor wish one as to your response. :Peace2:
I agree that holy spirit will convince people that they need to change their ways, and that applies to all of us. I think that's why it's important to walk the walk when we talk the talk to provide the proper example, not of a perfect person, but a person who believes God and tries to serve God in everything we not only say, but everything we do. We are all going to fail from time to time, but you can't give up. You have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep on truckin.
We are all in the same boat.
We can decide who we sit next to.
Those who are not in the boat are the ones who can walk on water.
Well, I'm glad I'm in the boat, bro, because I ain't holy enough to walk on water.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 12, 2015, 08:27:47 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 12, 2015, 08:02:47 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 12, 2015, 06:44:45 PM
:2c: I'm just wondering if there was as much coverage and a "movement" going on for say child molesters, cold blooded murders, rapists if our thoughts and speech would be different? We all know, no one "sin" is greater or lesser....would there be this reaching out and understanding?
I personally think it would be quite different, it just seems that the sin of homosexuality is not looked on with the same view as a cold blooded killer, homosexuality is not a violent "sin" so it can be embraced with more reaching out in love? I guess I am just looking at homosexuality as a "trojan horse." I will say that it's troubling times and my glass darkly is not getting any clearer. Again just my :2c: :HeartThrob:
I would hope, that after the rapist has been put in prison, there would be the same reaching out. Predatory sins must be handled at law first, to restrain the predator. And homosexuality is still a serious sin. Like adultery, it was a stoning offense under the Old Covenant. But in my opinion, the opposite of what you are saying is tru. Among Christians, homosexuality is the "singled out sin" that is viewed with greater hostility, while greed, obesity, jealous ambition, gossip, etc- get little attention. Ministers who have affairs are rehabilitated and put back in the ministry. Ministers who get rich on the gospel and steal from the saints do just fine. A minister or a saint who has a problem with homosexual tendencies is done for for good if exposed. Homosexuals are demonized among Christians. They are just sinners. We dont stone adulterers any more. Or homosexuals. Its a new covenant based on better promises and a word of reconciliation, as well as a word of repentance. But the power is in a changed life. I don't believe in homosexual Christians anymore than I agree with adulterous Christians. I believe in redeemed people reconciled, converted and then progressively growing into disciples of Christ, through both the mercy and the chastisements of a loving father.
I really meant no more than putting down thoughts that wandered into my thinking of the subject. I do not have an argument nor wish one as to your response. :Peace2:
As Eaglesway said
Quote:
Homosexuals are demonized among Christians. They are just sinners. We dont stone adulterers any more"
Very well put.
Though re some sins being worse (and i m not saying
anyone here said that about homosexuality)
Cs Lewis said pride was the worst
and aren t some sins termed "mortal " or "deadly"
or is that just catholic stuff ?(or of the tradition ?)
There could be a homosexual in a relationship with a gay partner reading this forum and he wants to be accepted by God.
one assurance we have..and can take comfort in..is just this.. No matter what state of being a slave to sin any fellowman/brother
is in......he/she,too....will also bear the image of the incorrupt one...and be delivered from it.
my daughter is bipolar and drug addict/with the lifestyle that is associated with it......and God has comforted me greatly in the salvation
of all. So,too....all people may hope in HIM...and not reckon themselves as the 'cursed' of God.But blessed through Christ
God has waived His judgement...through His son...and chosen to show mercy unto all men. To bind up all sin wounds of man
and restore man into the image of HIS SON. Jesus..when on the cross..while they were in the VERY ACT of killing him.....
prayed the Father...'Father forgive them..they know not what they do" Following His lead..we should also have this mind in us.
I think my heart and mind is finally settled regarding this. As I have an inner peace about this issue,now. And am no more
wrestling in my thoughts regarding the matter.
I have comfort in that you shared sister ,as you do
But I still know that the troubles of Jacob follow all who wrestle with the Angel of the Lord in the days of their flesh
Jesus cursed the fig tree because it was still lacking after it was inspected
We know God looks upon the heart and the seeds fall on all types of soil , rocks and heat
Maybe they need the seed[Christ] to start in their heart , by the planters and waterers like Paul and apollos were in their day
as we should be in our DAY but it is nothing unless God gives the increase
Amen, sis. I pray for you and your daughter. I was once a lost soul, strung out on dope, and on the street, but God's love changed my life. Keep the faith. You may not realize it, but your faith is affecting your daughter. She may not show it, but God is working on her through you.
Galations 3;10 Mark 11;25 let he who has no sin..cast the first stone[law on stoney hearts of unforgiveness of some-one
caught in the act of sin]
I guess what I am trying to say is this , I thought I was strong in the Lord and when put to the test , the lacking is proof !! not
Even after all these years and the Word of God Love is not as solid as I had hoped it was , this is so discouraging
I had one of the worst weeks ...
and the flood come down and knocked me down to the face of dust and ashes , even when you try
I know that THEY too will become disheartened with the whole mess of right and wrong and temptation and fighting against some thing inside them that leaves them utterly destroyed and broken over and over and over and over again
There is nothing worse than feeling God does not love you and everyone else just tolerates you , Because God made you in a image of corruption and that is all anyone ever sees .
Alot of them have suicidal tendencies and they sure have shared in the reckless lifestyle to prove its value as many of us have and do still
I just want to say I believe its very easy to say and very very hard to do .
You can beg GOD to change you , but it is like a leopard changing his spots , it dont work like that
There is only , Gods grace as sufficient , and that is the only thing you can trust in .... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Joanna on May 13, 2015, 04:30:09 PM
There could be a homosexual in a relationship with a gay partner reading this forum and he wants to be accepted by God.
If that is true i say please come in and say hello. You
have friends here .
....take comfort....for WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE....til then..keep 'putting up with" one another
in love.
Sheila, getting back to your family's struggle with addiction that came up earlier, I just read this article that made me think it's about time that the authorities started getting real about treatment like they are about smokes and booze because it's the same thing except for the political pressure involved. Now maybe junkies will start getting some medical help instead of getting locked up. But I know from experience that you have to fill that hole in your soul with the spirit of God not just secular counseling because that's the only way to really be free from the demon. All the overcrowded prisons in the corporate prison industry could free a lot of folks that are in there for non-violent crimes related to drugs, and the USA could save a lot of money being wasted on bustin folks for simply trying to medicate themselves. They all need spiritual counseling from folks who believe in universal reconciliation not incarceration with violent criminals who will force them to hate to survive, and that's not to mention how the DEA legally robs folks who have nothing to do with drugs simply because they're carrying cash.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2015/05/05/gloucester-cops-addicts-ask-for-help-and-won-arrest-you/9nrZEse0deDpPqt1t1VozI/story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/05/11/how-the-dea-took-a-young-mans-life-savings-without-ever-charging-him-of-a-crime/
Quote from: sheila on May 13, 2015, 04:32:19 PM
one assurance we have..and can take comfort in..is just this.. No matter what state of being a slave to sin any fellowman/brother
is in......he/she,too....will also bear the image of the incorrupt one...and be delivered from it.
:thumbsup: :banana:
Quote from: sheila on May 13, 2015, 04:32:19 PM
my daughter is bipolar and drug addict/with the lifestyle that is associated with it......and God has comforted me greatly in the salvation
Praise the Lord.. He is faithful.. always..
Quote from: sheila on May 13, 2015, 04:32:19 PM
of all. So,too....all people may hope in HIM...and not reckon themselves as the 'cursed' of God.But blessed through Christ
God has waived His judgement...through His son...and chosen to show mercy unto all men. To bind up all sin wounds of man
"God waived His judgment"!! :Gclap: :iagree: :iagree:
Quote from: sheila on May 13, 2015, 04:32:19 PM
and restore man into the image of HIS SON. Jesus..when on the cross..while they were in the VERY ACT of killing him.....
prayed the Father...'Father forgive them..they know not what they do" Following His lead..we should also have this mind in us.
I think my heart and mind is finally settled regarding this. As I have an inner peace about this issue,now. And am no more
wrestling in my thoughts regarding the matter.
:goodpost: :goodpost:
Are you baiting JH?
with bated breath , the condition of waiting for something to happen; subdued breathing due to high emotions
No Hate just dont like the flesh part of anyone , it stinks, it reeks , its an abomination in the Sight of God so those that live to the flesh are not considered alive to Him .. the smell of death is still reigning being the kings of the earth and all
1 Corinthians 4 (WEB)
4 So let a man think of us as Christ's servants, and stewards of God's mysteries.
2 Here, moreover, it is required of stewards, that they be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you,
or by man's judgment. Yes, I don't judge my own self.
4 For I know nothing against myself.
Yet I am not justified by this, but he who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each man will get his praise from God.
6 Now these things, brothers, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to think beyond the things which are written, that none of you be puffed up against one another.
7 For who makes you different? And what do you have that you didn't receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us. Yes, and I wish that you did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For, I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last of all, like men sentenced to death.
For we are made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You have honor, but we have dishonor.
11 Even to this present hour we hunger, thirst, are naked, are beaten, and have no certain dwelling place.
12 We toil, working with our own hands. When people curse us, we bless. Being persecuted, we endure.
13 Being defamed, we entreat. We are made as the filth of the world, the dirt wiped off by all, even until now.
14 I don't write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
15 For though you have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet not many fathers.
For in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the Good News.
16 I beg you therefore, be imitators of me.
17 Because of this I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every assembly
. 18 Now some are puffed up, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord is willing. And I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power.
20 For God's Kingdom is not in word, but in power.
21 What do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?
Sounds like a choice to me , unruly children get the rod , correction and the obedient ones get a loving gentle Spirit
Like the Holy Spirit and fire teaches , corrects and comforts , Its the Lord who judges as we judge for ourselves what is right
unless we falltrip ourselves into temptation ... weakness and error , being called sin and missing the mark of a much higher calling to come up here and be with the Lord in Spirit and truth
Everything done in the right Spirit which is LOVE is a beautiful thing !! :HeartThrob:
If we don't look upon the flesh any longer , but the motive of the heart we can see Gods glory in the earth still , it is all a matter of perspective
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 14, 2015, 03:44:20 PM
Well...you know when Paul says that all those dirty & wicked Arsenokoite will SURELY not inherit the kindom that is to come!
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men"
1 Corinthians 6:9
Tell me this: Will these people fail to inherit entirely, or will they experience correction/punishment/repentance and then inherit? If our tares/wood/hay/stubble are burned away, and our chaff carried off by the wind/spirit, we are no longer wrongdoers are we??
But that is what some of you were...but we shall ALL BE CHANGED! :banana: :banana:
saviour of ALL..specially those who believe.
Jones..no flesh will boast..not even the saints[ecclesia] Israel failed to keep her end of the covenant...as,too, christendom...
so that no flesh would boast and it all be a free gift of grace.
the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman that took leavening[grace] and hid it in a bowl of 3 measures of flour until all was leavened
this is how He does it...Israel's failure is a blessing unto the gentiles=grace extended to those despised......gentile
church/christendom failure = a blessing grace to all those sinner men she despised.......
the saints were overcome....and He allowed this.......so that mercy be extended to all and not on works/flesh etc. to stop all
boasting of flesh..and the worship of ones hands...and to praise God for the works of His hands...
THEY WILL KNOW ME WHEN I FORGIVE>>>>ALL THEIR SINS....
the flesh counts for nothing....GOD'S SPIRITUAL DNA SUPERCEDES ANY FLESHLY DIVISIONS.[sword that seperates]
sin is what He says it is.......and as we have all been bound up in disobedience..so,too, all shall be set free into the glorious
liberty of the sons of God.
I disagree that homosexual practices are not sin..it's a sin just like all other sexual immorality.I WON"T JUSTIFY IT[SIN}
BUT WILL LEAVE IT IN THE HANDS OF HE WHO JUSTIFIES THE WICKED THROUGH HIS SON![that's a whole other topic]
satan's been twisting/perverting the word of God a long time. Many will follow with loose acts of conduct...and because of these
the gospel will be spoken of abusively[and God,too]
there are bigot haters that come in the name of Christ...robbers and theives that turn HIS HOUSE OF PRAYER UNTO ALL NATIONS
INTO A DEN OF ROBBERS AND THEIVES
Quote from: rosered on May 14, 2015, 04:16:55 PM
Are you baiting JH?
JH's last couple of posts have been removed and a ban is in place. Forewarned multiple times.
good move
Thank you :dsunny:
16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.... John 3:17
This is my answer to the homosexual issue. And, actually, many other issues. If Jesus did not come here to judge, and we are told not to judge, but to look at the log in our own eye, then I am more than happy to not judge. I cannot see in people's hearts.....only God can do that, and only the Creator knows how each of us began and what we are capable of.
I cannot fathom how much differently God sees judgement, than I would.
A good friend of mine often quotes Mother Teresa, as saying: "If you judge people, you don't have time to love them." Enuf said.
Quote from: Dandilion on May 15, 2015, 05:58:18 AM
I cannot fathom how much differently God sees judgement, than I would.
I think we understand but a tad of it. There have been a few different posts about not judging, etc., and I've been thinking about it.
Judging in general could probably use its own thread. The whole subject is a big one, isn't it, and difficult to understand - reconciling
all the scriptures that apply and their intent as best we understand them.
We're told to not judge, but also told to judge rightly. We're told to love, but to also speak the truth. The scriptures are full of instructions on righteous living and the consequences of not doing so (truth), but also
how the body is to share the truth and help each other with it (love). I'm also thinking though (and requires more thought) that sometimes love may not even look like what we think it does or how the world defines it (full acceptance, inclusion, "whatever floats your boat"). I think of Paul "shaming" the church at Corinth for their sinful behavior and putting up with it in their midst, as well as turning the one in sin over to satan for the destruction of his flesh so his spirit would be saved. Did he not love them? :Chinscratch:
The scriptures also say this;
I Corinthians 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked one from among yourselves."
I'm usually feeling around for the right balance, but for me, loving and a blanket "judge not" doesn't preclude my responsibility to attempt to know from scripture and discern what's right and wrong, and being willing to,
when appropriate and LED, say so. Never militantly, or with the intent to just criticize or injure, but always with the intent of doing what's right and helping the person. Believe it or not, I usually just either cop out and say nothing/say something stupid, or on betters days just try to encourage or "share a helpful nugget" in person. Tough issues, but one thing that concerns me when we discuss "ideas and ideals" online is that I believe much of the "church" is sliding over to the world's view, which is where some of my "axe grinding" comes from. Anyway, I usually fail to one degree or another and sure need lots of help, but I believe I need to be willing to stand for and be faithful to the truth - in the right way as led, in the right spirit and attitude. :2c:
I'm usually feeling around for the right balance, but for me, loving and a blanket "judge not" doesn't preclude my responsibility to attempt to know from scripture and discern what's right and wrong, and being willing to, when appropriate and LED, say so. Never militantly, or with the intent to just criticize or injure, but always with the intent of doing what's right and helping the person. Believe it or not, I usually just either cop out and say nothing/say something stupid, or on betters days just try to encourage or "share a helpful nugget" in person. Tough issues, but one thing that concerns me when we discuss "ideas and ideals" online is that I believe much of the "church" is sliding over to the world's view, which is where some of my "axe grinding" comes from. Anyway, I usually fail to one degree or another and sure need lots of help, but I believe I need to be willing to stand for and be faithful to the truth - in the right way as led, in the right spirit and attitude. Jabcat
Sorry, I don't know how to put the quotes from others on here, as the rest of you do. Please forgive me for placing it like this.
Yes, I do know what you mean. And, I agree, in a theological sense. However, I find this topic especially difficult in that respect, because I know several people well, who are homosexuals. Some, I have been very close to, and none of those I know wanted to be homosexuals; were extremely young when they demonstrated tendencies towards it and were in a position which caused them much grief, depression, and one close friend committed suicide when he was 17, over this issue. Not that I ever had homosexual tendencies, but, God, for whatever reason put them in my path. I did not know any of them were homosexuals when I first got to know them, though, I might have had some vague thoughts that it was a possibility.
They all know/knew the Gospel, as well as I did. It tore them apart, that they were homosexuals. There was nothing I could say, that they did not know, already.
So, in my own personal experiences, I left that unsaid. What I told them was that I believe the ideal God intended was for marriage to be between a man and a woman. That is pretty much where I stopped. Of course, I pray for them, and love them a lot, as they are hurting and need to know they are accepted, as a person of worth, as they are.
I did not always think this way. Raised a Catholic, in a controlling family, I was taught and encouraged to be very judgemental, by my family....not by my Catholic school, though. I am no longer a Catholic......and no longer judgemental.....as far as is humanly possible. I am a Lutheran, and their take is this.....Law and Gospel...heavy on the Gospel.
Well, this is where I am at at this point in time, with this issue.
Hey Dandilion. Thanks for clarifying. I actually agree with that approach. I'm not talking about being militant or hateful, just have a concern that we as the "church" still know the difference between right and wrong and light and darkness, and are willing to share that light in whatever form we're led instead of perpetuating the darkness. I'm not the judge :laugh2: :wink2: but it sounds to me like you shared some truth, then loved them. I'm guessing if they needed to talk to you further about their struggles, asked for help and guidance from the scriptures on overcoming sin and looking to Jesus for comfort and deliverance etc., you'd help them with that rather than telling them don't worry about it, their sin is OK and God doesn't care, etc., which is the path of least resistance and tickling of ears I'm afraid is being taken by so many today. That's what saddens me corporately.
So that's the difference for me. Not are we blasting people with both barrels, but do we still know the difference and are we willing to help in the "right" way, rather than accepting and placating sin. And I agree, and it's been said over and over - but not just about active homosexual behavior. We all sin, and some sins are what Paul called "besetting'..those that just dog us, and some more persistent and damaging than others. And not to just pick at each other's imperfections either, because we're all clay. But anything that's obviously spelled out as "needing dealt with" in our flesh. I think it's a fine line, and love and encouragement to seek the Savior is a best overall approach. As long as we know the difference, aren't just passive and accepting and encouraging of sin. Then the Spirit can lead us into how and when to help. :2c:
Beautifully said James :HeartThrob: I also :iagree: speaking the Truth in Love is warning them of the wrath to Come in the earth .
We see all matter of sin already rising up as an evil upon the land ,
Once you are warned , just as the days of the prophets , so are the days of Gods Son speaking and those whom are His by the Spirit of prophecy SAME TESTIMONY OF MERCY , till its all worked out in the end .
:thumbsup: ty
I believe we are to invite them all , where ever they may be to the marriage supper of the Lamb James , and it on them if they make excuses Not to attend :HeartThrob:
Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'"
And he said to me, "These are true words of God."
10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that;
I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Matthew 22:1-14 ESV
And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying,
"The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.
Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.
' But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, ...
Invite everyone and all on the by ways and Highways being the other nations / Gentiles till the fulness of the Gentiles comes in
We are all called in a general sense to spread the Gospel the good news.
Like the prophets of old, only a few where called to warn peoples.
I think it is only a clear calling of the Holy Spirit that sends someone out to warn.
The rest of us are called to share the good news without the (or else God will get you)
Quote from: dajomaco on May 15, 2015, 09:05:57 PM
We are all called in a general sense to spread the Gospel the good news.
Like the prophets of old, only a few where called to warn peoples.
I think it is only a clear calling of the Holy Spirit that sends someone out to warn.
The rest of us are called to share the good news without the (or else God will get you)
I agree but we forget the warnings Jesus said in Love and how the temple fell and all those died without being under His Wing as a mother hen gatheres he chicks under her wings for protection ...
Matt 23 37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,
and you were unwilling. 38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!...
Or go out into the world as a witness preaching the gospel of the good news
shake the dust off your feet Matt 10 13"If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace.
But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
14"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city,
shake the dust off your feet. 15
"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. we see the need for the foot washing here because the dust clings to the feet , teaching and the image of corruption has the feet made with clay
that the rod of Iron strikes to burst the shards
I say this in Truth and not in hate or fear but in Love
same as TO Day That is the helping hand of Love we are still in the world and not of it , see the chaos in the world it also is a witness to what is going on too
heaven earth witness http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1973154/jewish/Heaven-and-Earth-on-the-Witness-Stand.htm
those that are with the Lord have the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb , the fulfillment of all things in Christ include the old and to be made new
1COR 3 Worldly Wisdom is Foolishness to God
...21
So then let no one boast in men.
For all things belong to you,
22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come;
all things belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. Weare to be inviting them to the marriage supper of the Lamb and bride / body of Christ to say come all that thirst come to the waters of life freely
come bride says come 17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Hope they hear what the Spirit and bride are saying , the opportunity of a lifetime is waiting for them ...
We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.[f] 14 But the unbeliever[g] does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated[h] spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated[j] by anyone.
I believe to warn a brother or sister requires an abundance of spiritual maturity.
There is a fine line between warning and accusing.
This is an area where the enemy can cause great divisions among believers.
I hear ya, bro. That's why I think it can help if you share your own struggle with sin to show that you're not condemning them, just trying to help a fellow brother or sister get with the program and encouraging them.
Quote from: dajomaco on May 15, 2015, 10:28:23 PM
We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.[f] 14 But the unbeliever[g] does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated[h] spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated[j] by anyone.
I believe to warn a brother or sister requires an abundance of spiritual maturity.
There is a fine line between warning and accusing.
This is an area where the enemy can cause great divisions among believers.
I so agree with you ..... Spiritual maturity , full of age
which I dont have , But Paul said come from those whom were young men and than fathers
though the gospel Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ,
you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
Part of Paul in maturity in the Spiritual growth was to become all things to all men that he could save some ...
He saved some by the Word of God Paul has that to his credit
fathered though the gospel
Now that we know He spoke up as saying imitate me as HE imitated Christ and said also he spoke boldly
I am just testifying of the truth in the Bible that is all...
Accepting sin IS not a option
Saying you can do whatever you want STILL and your accepted is not fair to them , and makes you a liar and held accountable before God
as teaching men so 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law
until all is accomplished.
19"
Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same,
shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20"For I say to you that unless your righteousness
surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We Are all workers and builders on our own house first , that beam in our own eye is for the foundational use of building upon the Rock removing the blindness of our own lack and mercy given
You do not lust after the same ways and things you have done before Christ come , do we ? :gimmefive:
well..the ministry of the law was supposed to have condemned all [sin in flesh] without having understood His law as to what sin is
.....they say it is not sin/and justify themselves. the law has to complete it's purpose to lead to Christ/repentant heart and request for grace through
your saviour. Grace is not saying sin is not sin[calling God a liar]...but God's long-suffering and patience and forgiveness of it through
His son. the man of sin/lawless one can not be revealed to him who is blinded and says 'I have no sin" seeking to justify ourselves
is a great barrier to the God of heaven justifying us through His son.
add to all this the many many false prophets,false doctrines..evil spirit activity to decieve the entire inhabited earth..and men become
faint as to what is coming upon the earth. God will certainly straighten out this mess..
:thumbsup:
:icon_flower: Yes!!! they sure did suffer for their part and agreement as predicted , as the example in Matt 24 Jesus warning and telling them what to expect
Isaiah 28 14Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we have made a pact.
The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,
For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.
" 16Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed....
AS THE OVERFLOWING SCOURGE /CHASTENING PASSES THOUGH..........
:cloud9: God has had me deal with both child molesters and homosexuals. He prepared me about 16 years ago for the homosexuals by making me watch a movie about one whose partner was run over by a truck.
It was very well done movie, no physical scenes, the partner was run over in the beginning of the movie and therefore it dealt more with the grief of his partner and the lack of his family understanding or comforting him in it. I confess I didn't want to watch it, I considered them "unclean" and I didn't want to get my hands "dirty," to be perfectly honest. After it was over, He told me to let Him show me how they feel. I resisted 3 times, finally agreeing, knowing that if I did I was likely going to be used with them.
What I felt in my heart I would not wish on my worst enemy. If was the most empty, deep loneliness I have ever felt, defies explanation. He said because Satan has corrupted their ability to connect to another human in the creator's way, they are unable to really connect, period. It's as if a chasm in them remains unfilled, growing in intensity, never satisfied. And I got my chance to minister to some of them.
As for the child molesters, the Lord brought one to my bible study over a decade ago. Of course, we didn't know that at first; all we saw at first was the brokenness of a man who finally found God and we got to see the Christ in him before he confessed he had molested his little girl. Before I came to God, I could have cut their heart out with a dull spoon and thought nothing of it. I was amazed as I hugged this man and really felt God's love for him swell up in my heart.
Point is, both the forgiven and the forgivers gain a spiritual blessing. It's always a two way street with God, and in my experience it's usually the ones you least want to deal with that bring the greatest blessing to YOU. My :2c: Blessings....
"The ignoble and the contemptible things of the world God chooses, and that which is not, that He should be discarding that which is, so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight." (1 Corinthians 1:28,29)
An interesting point a friend of mine made with me was as follows..... Out of Ro. 1
They worshipped the creation rather than the creator, so they became fools, and their understanding was darkened, so they were given over to depraved behavior of various kinds, homosexuality being one of them.
Every man sins when he is drawn away by his own heart and enticed. Lust conceives sin and sin conceives death. A cycle of sin that can only be stopped by returning to the worship of the Creator-restoring understanding(discerment).
When a person i committing sin-they are worshipping the creation over the Creator. That thing i want is more important than He is to me. By stealing, or commiting adultery, or being greedy or envious, by homosexual sin or heterosexual sin- I am worshipping the creation over the Creator.
By pride, strife, vainglory- I worship my own image rather than the image of God- which is Christ and Him crucified.
What is the source of your wars? You lust and do not hav so you fight and steal and kill. Woe unto you, you aduterers and adultresses..... Clense your hands you sinners..... Draw nigh unto God and He will draw nigh unto you.
Return to me says the Lord, with all of your heart.
The privilege of carrying the light is based on that intense love for Him that is true service and worship. If we return, our light rises in obscurity(Let there b light! :o).
As the Psalmist says(ps51), Then I will teach transgressors your ways and sinners will b converted unto thee.
Or as the revelator says;
You have tried them that called themselves apostles and exposed the false, but this i hav against you- you hav left your first love. Return to me with all your hearts or I will remove your lampstand from its place(revoke the privilege of carrying the light).
Sobering words for all. The highways and hedges await the light. Grace Lord, grace.
Let me not worship the creation over the Creator in anyway.
I agree. I'm thinking there were probably a bunch of folks who didn't want to receive Paul as a brother after he'd been rounding up and killing their brothers and sisters, but God chose Paul to show the power of grace to transform a life of even what Paul himself admitted was the foremost of sinners. That's why God has changed each and every one of us because I'm guessing we all came from similar backgrounds in the sense that we experienced the darkness for real and probably couldn't even believe God loved us so much when we first realized it. That's why God chooses people like us though because it blows the minds of folks to see the change in our lives. I have no problem confessing my past craziness because it is a testimony to the power of God that I am even alive right now to type this. There was a time in my life when I didn't think I would even live to be 21, and now I'm a crazy old fool just as surprised I'm still here as everybody who knew anything about me during my life. But I know I'm nothing special because I think God works a miracle in everybody's life one way or another. We just have to see our brothers and sisters as fellow victims of sin struggling to survive in this wicked eon, and have compassion for them regardless of how sin is manifested in them. That's why Jesus hung out with the folks society put down. That really bugged the self-righteous folks who were respected by society, but God shows his power to save people most in those who obviously seem to need it the most. And who are the most thankful when they're saved? It's always those of us who know we were really messed up and didn't deserve it. I think that's the purpose of evil that most people don't seem to understand. It gives us an opportunity to see God really work in our lives so we don't just take his saving grace for granted. When you're saved from something traumatic in your life like gut wrenching drug withdrawal, there's no doubt in your mind about the power of God, and you love him a whole lot more. We who once may have been the "ignoble and contemptible" of society are the best examples of the grace of God. So take advantage of that to share God's grace with those in society who you know may be considered to be the "ignoble and contemptible" right now so they too can be shining examples of the light of God's love in this world of darkness. It's God's love that's going to overcome the evil in this world, not condemnation by self-righteous people who may even be spouting off verses of scripture but not in the spirit of love. It's not the words. It's the power that comes through the word of God that changes people. Love is the most powerful force in the universe. God is love.
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. 1 Corinthians 9: 19 - 23
I think this one is appropriate for this discussion.
To win all for Christ, by becoming one with them. To be Christ in the flesh, for each person, we encounter. :handshake:
Yesterday was international LGB day. On the news here in France the current position on same sex marriage was explained. owing to the separation
of church and state only the state can marry so the law compels equal rights here. However re the church
marriage (not official though many have the ceremony
too) it is down to pastors conscience. Not allowed by
Rc and broadly policy with the prots.
I have been contemplating all this and intend to decide. I heard some convincing points from Jabcat
and that was on the practice of homosex not
marriage.
Since then i will say this. I was touched by a message
in a health forum from a person of hs orientation(no need to say which sex it adds little to the polemic.
Owing to a progressive uncurable illness in a late stage they were on the verge of suicide and of a sudden began an online relationship ,then met.
The other person too was ill they managed to aid each other in Practical ways as well has claim to have renewed joy in life. That someone comes along
ans turns someone around is great news that the people were hs seems secondary .
I really don t like to have to object to peoples conduct
when it touches the heart so strongly.
I could simply say its between them and God.
I would not feel comfortable or right to say to the people in the tale i outlined they are doing wrong.
I think it's good that they loved and helped each other through some hard times, but love is something different than a sexual relationship. And scripture tells us that God considers certain sexual relationships sin.
:cloud9: I couldn't say it was God or that it wasn't, but I will say that God's love is not an emotion, it's a Spirit. Just my :2c:....Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 18, 2015, 04:40:15 PM
:cloud9: I couldn't say it was God or that it wasn't, but I will say that God's love is not an emotion, it's a Spirit. Just my :2c:....Blessings.....
The Word and Spirit and those whom worship God in Spirit and Truth are the LOVE OF GOD expressed, in faith , as living and active works of HIM , not the dead works in old Adam
of Hebrews 6 as God gives the increase , adding daily a number that cannot be counted or fathomed in human minds :HeartThrob:
I do not wish to make myself look unbalanced.. However consider this : i wonder why on earth out of
the blue that person chose me in a health forum.
I have never discussed sexuality or religion. Why would they want to share with me ? Might God have
been trying to tell me attitudes should be softened thatwhat counts chiefly in a couple is love respect
I mean we readily admit that given all the translations
and versions and translations truth is hard to elicit.
Do we really think that if love and respect are in Place God takes such a dim view of what two cosenting adults do ?
Quote from: rosered on May 18, 2015, 05:16:55 PM
The Word and Spirit and those whom worship God in Spirit and Truth are the LOVE OF GOD expressed, in faith , as living and active works of HIM , not the dead works in old Adam
of Hebrews 6 as God gives the increase , adding daily a number that cannot be counted or fathomed in human minds :HeartThrob:
I hope that I may be permitted to express my opinion... it does seem like talking into the wind to try and explain what it is like to be filled with Jesus Christ, even once for a day perhaps, is enough for a person never to forget that which does not exist in time and which is not subservient to words or man's doctrines.
It is not being filled with sacred words or spiritual ideas or religious concepts or happy thoughts of a blissful future.
It is being filled with Jesus Christ.
It is not being filled with the things that Jesus said,
Or it is not being filled with gratitude for salvation,
Or it is not being filled with exuberant joy and feelings of bliss.
It is being filled with Jesus Christ.
It is being filled with the Jesus Christ, whose Blood, mixed with water, fell on and blessed the earth upon which all humans live.
It is being filled with that Jesus Christ.
Then does a person know something, even but a little, of the never-ending Divine Love that has awakened within, in Christ.
When that happens, the legalistic words of the religionist become meaningless, because Truth and Life is experienced.
When that happens, the man of letters appears like a ghost trying to feebly disqualify the endlessness of Divine Love which he has never experienced - for if he had done so, he would not be living with the God of the letter but the GOD of the Spirit, in my opinion.
PEACE
I don't think some consenting adults may take a "dim view" of the word of God. I don't think it's a matter of "translations and versions" as you say because the ancient scriptures say God created man and woman to be one flesh, not man and man. As I said before, the couple that you communicated with may have genuine love for each other, but that's a separate issue from a sexual relationship.
Leave aside the translation and version argu.ent. I realize for some scripture should never be argued with
But my chief point is simply as a human i am addressing the point what harm does it do.
Everyone wants to know the why behind rules .
Is there no place for evolved conscience being able to
say i m a christian and i want live respect and all good things in my same sex couple. The sex serves as expression thereof.
I am straight and arguing this with the view we are
all german jews i wo. t explain more there. Simply put iit concerns us all. You can point to scripture Tom but
with respect in the world people need inspiration on other levels where is the place for that?
I know about reproduction but vast amounts of sex has not been had for reproduction. I m sure you may have heard the commo. Sense argument that hs is natures way of keeping the population down and we do have issues there.
OK, so I guess it's all right for me to hook up with my pet nanny goat then, right? If men can marry men, why shouldn't people be allowed to marry their pets? Animals have been declared legally sentient beings.
http://www.animalequality.net/node/703
http://www.vegan.com/blog/europe-grants-animals-legal-status-of-sentient-beings/
Who cares if it's a different species if they're consenting adults because it's just for pleasure not procreation? And I guess the same would apply to siblings and parents, right? Why should gay folks have all the fun? Why should everybody else be discriminated against? Let's just open the floodgates, and let anybody hook up with anybody else. Why not? We could eliminate marriage and the prohibition against adultery, and we could all just have a big old non-stop party. What do ya think? I tried the swinger lifestyle for awhile, and that's what it's all about. If it feels good, do it. Nobody gets hurt, and nobody gets jealous. Let's all just have a ball!
Now who is getting tense?
It s not fair what you said. You serm a knowledgeable
and experienced man but frankly if you answer my verycommon questions like that you surprise.
I along with many others would never ever touch animal child or anything un consenting.
And surely you see that? I said consenting !
i m not sur e folk would like to be lumped together
as you did. No i was talking about love and respect
That can not by definition include goats having a ball etc.
Why don t you take a derp breath and have the decency to respect me and my efforts to tackle a difficult questio. With the respect it deserves.
I was seeking a serious answer.
I'm not "tense." I said "consenting," and I didn't say anything about a "child." I do respect you, and I am being serious. Some people love their pets and treat them just like humans. People's pets love them. The links I posted show that animals are even now considered to be legally sentient beings just like humans. So why should you discriminate against pets? I'm just thinking outside the box like you. I think the point is that who is to say where to draw the line? Some people may not agree with others about this or that. So there should be a reference point at which you say this is cool, but that ain't, and that's what the word of God is. If some folks don't want to agree to live according to that standard, that's their choice as long as they don't violate any secular laws and get caught, but some secular laws have "evolved," as you say, due to political correctness. The word of God remains constant though, and that's a good thing. You may have sympathy for certain individuals because you've become acquainted with them, but it seems to me that it's just a matter of confusing love with desire which is quite common especially in our permissive western culture.
I don't think life in Christ is about whatever two people may be consenting to. I think it is about what the Lord consents to or blesses in any given situation that is the most important thing.
It's not like the Lord was silent on this matter of "becoming one flesh." He told us exactly what He meant by that...creating man and woman to be one flesh. Plain and simple words.
People can deviate from that all they want to and it won't change His clear words on the matter....
Mary once told some people at a wedding the Lord attended, "Whatever He tells you to do, do it."
That applies to all things really, the way I see it. Our flesh doesn't like to be crucified with Christ....wants our own will not His....when things get down to the nitty gritty..the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak. But trying to wrestle with the Lord and His word on any matter when He is dealing with us.... we're gonna lose. And that's a good thing!! :)
Quote from: lastpost on May 18, 2015, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: rosered on May 18, 2015, 05:16:55 PM
The Word and Spirit and those whom worship God in Spirit and Truth are the LOVE OF GOD expressed, in faith , as living and active works of HIM , not the dead works in old Adam
of Hebrews 6 as God gives the increase , adding daily a number that cannot be counted or fathomed in human minds :HeartThrob:
I hope that I may be permitted to express my opinion... it does seem like talking into the wind to try and explain what it is like to be filled with Jesus Christ, even once for a day perhaps, is enough for a person never to forget that which does not exist in time and which is not subservient to words or man's doctrines.
It is not being filled with sacred words or spiritual ideas or religious concepts or happy thoughts of a blissful future.
It is being filled with Jesus Christ.
It is not being filled with the things that Jesus said,
Or it is not being filled with gratitude for salvation,
Or it is not being filled with exuberant joy and feelings of bliss.
It is being filled with Jesus Christ.
It is being filled with the Jesus Christ, whose Blood, mixed with water, fell on and blessed the earth upon which all humans live.
It is being filled with that Jesus Christ.
Then does a person know something, even but a little, of the never-ending Divine Love that has awakened within, in Christ.
When that happens, the legalistic words of the religionist become meaningless, because Truth and Life is experienced.
When that happens, the man of letters appears like a ghost trying to feebly disqualify the endlessness of Divine Love which he has never experienced - for if he had done so, he would not be living with the God of the letter but the GOD of the Spirit, in my opinion.
PEACE
PEACE to all your house LastPost , I totally agree with you , I know when the SPIRIT SPEAKS
It can come out of anyones mouth at any time , and they themselves many not even be aware it ..
We are always underestimating the POWER OF GOD to whom all things are possible .
with the impossibility of men trampling under foot .
Thus the Lord says , Heaven is My Throne and the earth is My footstool :HeartThrob:
Quote from: newlove on May 18, 2015, 07:04:01 PM
Do we really think that if love and respect are in Place God takes such a dim view of what two cosenting adults do ?
Yes I do, based on what I understand the scriptures to say about it.
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on May 18, 2015, 09:26:24 PM
I don't think life in Christ is about whatever two people may be consenting to. I think it is about what the Lord consents to or blesses in any given situation that is the most important thing.
It's not like the Lord was silent on this matter of "becoming one flesh." He told us exactly what He meant by that...creating man and woman to be one flesh. Plain and simple words.
IMO, these aren't difficult obscure Greek words or concepts, nor are they subjective.
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,...
Just as lying, stealing, murdering, adultery, envying, gluttony, fornication, pride, hate, jeolousy etc.. - any sin of the flesh - all to be taken before the Lord, admitted as sin (God gives grace to the humble ["Lord have mercy on me a sinner"]) surrendering to His will, looking to Him for forgiveness, cleansing, and deliverance.
Is there anything new (and truly useful/edifying) to add to this thread folks?
I don't think active homosexual activity or any other sin is going to be "officially" accepted here as "OK" and to be excused or accepted. I really think the pertinent questions have been answered in this thread. Is there anything further that's of benefit? If not, it might be time to lock this and move on, rather than engage in circular arguments. Thanks.
I agree because it just keeps coming down to us being requested to compromise on what God says plainly in scripture simply because it is now politically correct to accept the gay lifestyle as a civil right which is not really the issue here even though that's what keeps clouding the issue. We can have compassion for our brothers and sisters in this world without saying their sin is no longer sin just because they may have more political power now. God has good reason for prohibiting certain kinds of fleshly relationships, and we shouldn't try to doubt what God says or think it may be out of date or something that just doesn't apply anymore for whatever reason. People in denial about their sin, any sin, will never take the first step to change their ways. Everybody has to come to the decision of being honest with themselves and want to change to please God and honor God, and God will give you the power to change if you just ask him. I know from experience in my own life that I don't deserve God's love, but God loves me anyway. And God saved me from a life of sin because he loves me. That makes me feel very humble because I know I'm not worthy, but God is love.
I do take Tom s point there. And by all means lock it.
But let me say this .
Consider when the pope made some concession on condoms. Yes to prevent aids. People should not do many things yet they do and it is comensurate with compassion and facing human frailty that the pope acted pragmatically. That people sin sexually is no reason to prevent them from protection.
If this gets locked before someone answers my final question please pm me but i hope it
remains open for this :
What did christ himself say about homosexuality
and if it is absent shouldn t we be considering what that means ? Because don t we see evolution from o.t
law to New T with Christ as foremost?
First, I think "evolution" is a loaded word that shouldn't even be associated with scripture, and second, I think all of scripture is what Jesus Christ said because he is the word of God. And the fact is that in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures we see clear teaching about what is sin even if we don't understand why something is sin or still considered sin after somebody might think scripture should have experienced an "evolution" to now sanction some sin. A man and woman become one flesh in marriage the way God intended it regardless of what the courts say. Those are the same courts that say it's all right to kill unborn children too, but that's not right either. I think there are many crazy laws on the books that I don't think are morally right. I think everybody needs to use their own conscience, but you ought to have that harmonize with God's will not just civil law. By the way, I meant no personal offense to any brother or sister or to Tentmaker, as I never do, even though I may use an unorthodox method to get a point across sometimes. And sometimes I may find some humor in something when I think it gets to the point of being ridiculous, instead of getting upset about it, but I realize sometimes my humor isn't perceived as such. So I'm sorry for being the crazy old fool I am who prefers to look at life with a smile rather than a frown, but, hey, I gotta be me.
Quote from: newlove on May 19, 2015, 12:50:35 AM
What did christ himself say about homosexuality
and if it is absent shouldn t we be considering what that means ?
I believe Christ addressed it in Romans chapter 1 and elsewhere.
I think we could come up with a whole list of things that aren't recorded as Jesus Himself saying during His specific earthly ministry to the Jews - leading up to His sacrifice for us all. But Jesus and God are present in every word of scripture that's inspired by the Holy Spirit. So IMO, He addresses it.
http://www.aglassdimly.com/2009/12/29/jesus-never-talked-about-x/
"Jesus Never Talked About X"
Jesus was a Jew. He didn't come to begin a religion; he came as the culmination of the Old Testament, in its prophecies & promises.
With that in mind, does anybody really think Jesus had to repeat everything from the Old Testament in his teachings–or we can dismiss it? That would be a pretty odd expectation.
And yet, modern religious discussion seems to have a new trump-card: "Jesus never talked about ______." If Jesus never talked about [insert traditional/conservative/disliked belief], then supposedly it has no place in true Christianity–it's just man-made.
The Problems
Does anyone really think that if Jesus didn't explicitly, directly mention something, it's not sin? Did he talk about rape? Child abuse? Did he mention the common infanticide practiced in the Roman Empire? Did he mention bestiality?
We know he spoke about murder, and sexual immorality in general. But we don't know that he ever mentioned these others. Does that mean he condoned them?
So where does this thinking go wrong?
The first problem: The written gospel accounts don't pretend to record everything Jesus said. We can't say, "Jesus never mentioned X." We can only say, "The gospel writers didn't include anything about it." Each gospel writer included and emphasized different portions of Jesus' teaching; they don't claim to include all of it.
Even if Jesus himself actually did directly mention every moral issue during his time on earth, we don't have everything he said.
The second problem: Red-letter Christianity.
Sometimes, modern printings of the Bible put the words of Jesus in red letters. And some people view the red letters as the only part that's really Scripture, really God's word. Oddly, people will reject Jesus' own view of the Scriptures. He appealed to the Old Testament as the word of God; he affirmed Moses and the Psalms and the prophets. They spoke by the Spirit of God–the same Spirit by whom the apostles & prophets of the New Testament spoke.
And that takes us back to the first problem: Jesus didn't come to create a new religion. He's not dropping in out of the blue and starting with a blank slate. Jesus is a Jew; Christianity continues & builds on Judaism. And according to Jesus, he didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.
The Law was from the Father, with whom Jesus is one. When he criticized the prevailing morality, it was because they departed from the Law for the sake of man-made traditions. But the Law itself was the word of God.
If we take Jesus in the gospels seriously, we have to take the rest of the Bible seriously. Jesus, the Word of God, affirmed Scripture as the word of God. You can't separate its teachings from his.
Amen
:2thumbs:
:cloud9: Amen.
I would like to add to the conversation, that newlove's first language I believe is French, so posters please be thoughtful of this as well as with other posters on this board from other countries whose first language is not English. Their choice of words may or may not be what we are used to for the same thought to be expressed and may lead to misunderstandings of meaning when there may or may not be any at all. Thanks
And newlove, maybe you crossed paths because God wanted you to display His love and Jesus Christ to him/them. That would be my guess.... :dontknow:
I think newlove is a compassionate believer, and I hope you and newlove understand I meant no offense. Sometimes I may seem like a bull in a China shop with my method of operation. I don't even deny being crazy, but I'm harmless. So peace to you, brother or sister newlove, whatever the case may be. It's a mystery to me.
:cloud9: Yes, I agree. Never hurts to post a reminder from time to time that we do have an international fellowship on here. Blessings... :thumbsup:
Thankyou all . That s ok Tom. To sort it out and remain civil at the end counts for a lot.
Cardinal thanks for your thoughts there on why they contacted me. Actually i am a
Native speaker from Uk but with
30 years away the English can get a bit ropey In the heat of the moment.
I am really fairly new as a christian and simply do not know all these things . Perhaps you think i must be perversely trying to undermine what is held sacred? That s certainly not true though. I took no delight and actually found this all rather nervewracking .Not to say absent of value though.
Neither am i pro PC,its something that exasperates me. (i know you didn t say that )
I am concerned though that lgbt people certainly never appear in our church and think it is broadly true
and fear that will persist.
This is my chief sticking point the other is hell so
we re all ok there !
Peace.
Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2015, 12:34:54 AM
I agree because it just keeps coming down to us being requested to compromise on what God says plainly in scripture simply because it is now politically correct to accept the gay lifestyle as a civil right which is not really the issue here even though that's what keeps clouding the issue. We can have compassion for our brothers and sisters in this world without saying their sin is no longer sin just because they may have more political power now. God has good reason for prohibiting certain kinds of fleshly relationships, and we shouldn't try to doubt what God says or think it may be out of date or something that just doesn't apply anymore for whatever reason. People in denial about their sin, any sin, will never take the first step to change their ways. Everybody has to come to the decision of being honest with themselves and want to change to please God and honor God, and God will give you the power to change if you just ask him. I know from experience in my own life that I don't deserve God's love, but God loves me anyway. And God saved me from a life of sin because he loves me. That makes me feel very humble because I know I'm not worthy, but God is love.
Tom, I agree with everything you say here but I think what you said here ....
"Everybody has to come to the decision of being honest with themselves and want to change to please God and honor God,"....will only become a reality when every knee will bow.
CHB
I agree because those who don't believe will obviously not get with the program until then.
Hi folks, interesting thread. Is homosexuality ok? Is murder ok? Is stealing ok? They are all sin! All of these things and countless others caused Christ to suffer and die. Can we change? Can we stop sinning? no. Dear brothers and sisters, what we all need (the accused and the accuser) is a new heart
Here is a video by Clyde Pilkington that may shed some light on the matter Christ came for sinners and I am one.
Shalom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nugau884htc
Jock.
we shall all be changed...and be a new creature. no matter how marred or what form of sin..we have bore in the image
of the corrupt one. Because of His GREAT LOVE...... Take heart all people. OUR GOD REIGNS!!!
Sheila
Amen and Amen! :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
Absolutely....that is what this blog is really all about. That, eventually, we will all know our God and He will save us....totally and completely.....forever.
For, lo, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart. Isaiah 65:17
:cheerleader:
The judges ruled.....it is law. I would like to know what law of 10 was has been obeyed and which laws[of many] are held to? Laws seem to disfigure the carnal nature in thought, like a "no trespassing sign" which seems to bring out the worst of man's disobedience.
I cannot admit to clear understanding, yet should I continue to believe in Jesus Christ, I must, through my seeing in a glass darkly, embrace the depth and width of my Savoir's LOVE for all His children. :2c: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
My problem is I believe in the nuclear family as the building block of community. Male and female He created them. I condemn no one, but I know one symptom of the disintegration of a society is the loss of respect for the connection between a mother, a father and their children. The answer is not to condemn gay people, but it is not to approve homosexuality either. Acknowledging that we, as acommunity, as a nation, have forsaken the Creator and become fools, darkened in our understanding, would be a beginning point, but although I pray in faith, sometimes I think the die is cast and it is just too late, beyond out intercessions for the individuals we are connected to in our own lives.
:iagree:
The mystery of the Creator's plan is yet unfolding and Wisdom is revealed beneath the clearing away of the rumble from earthquakes. :2c: :dsunny:
One more reason why "Jesus never talked about homosexuality" is irrelevant:
Unlike Paul, Jesus' audience almost always consisted of Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, zealots and/or garden variety Jews. Regarding homosexuality, all of these groups would have agreed with Jesus because they agreed with the Law (Matt. 5:17). Therefore there was simply nothing to say.
:cloud9: What most denominations fail to recognize is that it's a demonic spirit controlling them, and condemning them only makes it stronger, because condemnation ministers death to the hearer. We have to love unconditionally regardless of the sin, and pray for the one caught in the trap of the enemy, otherwise we ourselves are judged.
Because most don't understand that the enemy of our soul works thru thoughts so subtle we can't discern the difference between the two without the Word in our hearts to mediate, the enemy comes in, sometimes from the womb (thus some claim they were born that way and in a fashion they were but not the way they think) and begins speaking. A thought eventually becomes an attitude, if entertained, and an attitude becomes an action that anchors it to the flesh even more.
This is true of any sin. Thus we are told to bring all thoughts into captivity to the mind of Christ. But if they don't know the mind of Christ (the Spirit breathed Word), they have nothing to compare it to.
The individual thinks because their flesh body senses respond to stimuli the way it was created to, that that is a sure sign that they are gay or lesbian because they enjoyed the senses, but it's just another lie of the enemy that create an attitude, then another and another action follows, until they are so bound they can't escape without the direct intervention of the Lord Jesus Christ.
And as someone used of the Lord for deliverance over the decades, I can tell you personally I know it's a strong unclean spirit, and does not like to leave it's host.
I have brought this situation to the Lord for understanding many times because of being used to minister to some, and you can't minister without wisdom from above.
The same principle has worked on the masses, regarding creating an attitude and an action, if you look at what has happened to the USA in the last 30 years regarding this topic. Back then it was rarely discussed, hidden. Now there is a gay or lesbian character on nearly every television sitcom, they have their own cable channel and programming, and have managed to overturn laws to suit themselves while convincing nearly everyone that differs with their views on it, that they are "narrow minded, homophobic, discriminatory, unfair, ect.".
It's desensitizing and a form of brainwashing. Hitler said something along the lines of, give me your children at 6 and they will be mine forever. The head of the main gay organization in NYC said that several years ago, right after they managed to get books into kindergarden classes with titles like, "Why Joanie has 2 mommies or Why David has 2 daddies". This has been a spiritual war for decades and most have slept thru it.
I don't think they have ever considered this fact, but GOD "discriminates" and it is not a dirty word, it's called righteousness and it's His prerogative to define it's characteristics. My :2c: Blessings....
:thumbsup: exactly Bex!
Cardinal,
You have written a very thought provoking piece, thank you.
Would you explain in a little further depth the following: "What most denominations fail to recognize is that it's a demonic spirit controlling them, and condemning them only makes it stronger, because condemnation ministers death to the hearer."?
Thanks,
Pat
:cloud9: @ Patinak.....Sure will. Here's the gist of what I meant. The law is good, but the motive of the heart of men defiled it and continues to do so today. The purpose of the law is to put to death the flesh and it does a great job of it, but the problem arises in that without the Spirit administering it, all it does is kill/bring death to the hearer. Only the Spirit is a two-edged sword and that can both kill AND make alive (quicken) that same Word.
So apart from the anointing which breaks every yoke administering that law, the condemnation to the flesh hits the mark, BUT without the Spirit quickening it, no new life comes from that. Ever sit thru a church service and felt worse than before you went in? I guarantee you the law was preached but without the anointing to quicken once the flesh was killed. This is why Christians have been running from churches in droves, so how much more would those in obvious outright sin, refuse to come and be bashed?
If I take it further, the reason we (and when I saw we I mean the spiritual priesthood, ie. those baptized into His Spirit not just water) can't judge them, is because the heart of the priesthood has not yet been cleansed (but is being cleansed in this season as ALL is being required to be laid down) and this same spirit resides in the heart of all men, usurping the one on one relationship all men are meant to have with the Most High God, nothing withheld, no other man in the middle save the RISEN Lord, all false coverings removed.
For this reason, because whatever judgment WE mete out, by the same measure we are judged. The Pharisees, made to be as one with the Head in their season also, had the same problem. They washed the outside of the cup (soul, the repository of the Spirit), but not the inside. So has it been our fates for the last 2 days (a day is like a thousand years) of Pentecost, because it was not in the Lord's timing yet, because it was not the dawning of the 3rd day as it is now. Remember, He said tell Herod that fox, that the first two days I will do cures and cast out devils, but the third day I will be perfected. My :2c: Blessings....
This is my dilemma with Homosexuality.
God has put many homosexual people in my life. I did not know any of them were homosexuals when I first got to know them. There are all different stories. All very interesting, I might add. All the homosexual people I know and knew, showed signs from birth, but many were denying those feelings/signs, initially, or just did not realize they were homosexuals, but 'knew something was wrong'. Many of the people I know suffer(ed) mental illness, depression, suicide attempts, and one of my dearest, 'like a brother' friend, killed himself many years ago at 17 years of age, due to his homosexual feelings.
I understand, it was not God's plan. But, many times, people speak as though homosexuals made this decision to be so. I have never heard or seen this happen. All the people I know, were fighting 'tooth and nail' against being homosexual, and did extraordinary things to stop themselves from this lifestyle.
They are so saddened by the way many people view them.......as wanting to be gay or lesbian, when, in fact, none of the many people I know want or wanted this lifestyle. They are thought of as perverts and to be avoided, frequently. I know their deep and on-going pain, very well, at this point. Watching them try to live their lives as fruitful and as normal as they can, can be excruciatingly painful. They pray continually, to be delivered from this.
The world tells them they are sinning, but they have tried everything to not be homosexuals. And, all I know have tried everything at their disposal. Many are some of the most faithful, trusting in God, and caring Christian people I have ever known. Many of my homosexual friends are in Christian ministry of some sort, usually 'in the closet' still. Some not. Some had been married before coming to the realization and had watched spouses and children pay a very high price because of their homosexual inclinations.
There is nothing I or anyone else can say that they don't know or haven't thought of. And it haunts them, continually.
Honestly, it breaks my heart to watch it all. It is so sad to be in church with them, when the Pastor gives a sermon or makes a comment about homosexuality. I see the tremendous pain on their faces, and it brings me to tears sometimes. In fact, I know Pastors who are homosexual, themselves.
So, that is my dilemma. I was a hard-liner for many years, about homosexuality. That was what I was taught and what I believed. I come from a lower-middle class, Catholic school background, in a very old-fashioned, Irish/Italian neighborhood in the Bronx. Homosexuality was not looked upon well. Actually, it was basically a non-issue, as it was never even spoken about, as though it did not exist. Again, I still believe, that it is not God's plan. But, I just don't see it as a choice people make, either, at this point.
So, I love my friends and family who are homosexuals, and accept them as they are. I try very hard to be there for them.
This is where I am at. God knows what I have seen and heard and He knows how it pulls at my heart, for many reasons. I give my conflict to Him.
:dunno2: :Pray:
Honestly, I keep being disappointed this issue keeps being brought back up, but it does. I guess it's the current "hot topic", and there may be a good reason for it.
I believe the preacher or anyone else that is concerned and speaks up about where society and the "church" is heading, what it accepts and believes and "pushes" for, is right to do so as long as it's scripturally sound and done in the right spirit - not bashing, yet telling the truth in love. Not strangling people to death with it, but not compromising either. Nothing wrong with teaching the truth - all of it.
For me the main issue is not whether our tendencies, including to sin, are choice or not. The main issue is what is done with and about them. i may have inherited personality traits, or had things happen to me early on that shaped me to have desires and tendencies, rather than my sitting and consciously choosing them. For instance, that could include an intense sexual lusting after other women, that when cultivated would end up in my being unfaithful to my wife. Did I choose to be initially overly attracted to women, have a deep desire to be intimate with them, somehow seeking acceptance, intimacy, love (or what I might call love) apart from God's intention for me, or was I "driven" by something to try to fill some void in my life that was there "without my permission"? IMO, even though those might be important questions, the main thing is how do I approach the problem. Do I follow my own desires and tendencies, whether in-bred or not, fulfilling the lust of the flesh and doing clearly what God forbids, or approach it in some other manner?
That's where I believe the choice comes in, with about any sin that comes against us. I can give in to it (and have missed the mark many times in many ways in my life) or I can recognize my weakness, recognize my tendency to sin, seek God's face for help and deliverance. Not try to deny it and justify it, insisting it's not sin (that doesn't really work, because a conscience knows [unless/until it's seared] but instead say to God "whatever I have to do to please you, help me do it". Even (or especially) "I can't do this myself. You have to carry me, pick me up, deliver me". And often, "forgive me, because I've failed again". But NOT, "this is just the way I'm made, I was born this way, so it must be OK". Further, "the Bible must not really mean x,y,z [because it doesn't suit my flesh - or society's wishes - increasingly including the "church's".]"
Basically, we're born with the built-in, genetically-coded propensity to sin. We don't have to be taught how to do it. It comes naturally. Somehow, someway, that seems to manifest itself differently for different people, but it's still there - naturally. So personally, I know people are hurting with many issues (I am, I struggle constantly with my flesh). And this current issue under discussion is a huge one and it's sad. But justifying it isn't the way to go. Maybe that increasingly makes one sound like they're "out of touch", bigoted, etc. I see where the UR "hero" Rob Bell is now saying we should embrace active homosexuality, that the church is "one minute from doing so". Also he says that we are in trouble/error if we live our lives "based on 2,000 year old letters" - THE BIBLE. Well, if folks increasingly decide that's outdated and we must be politically correct to be "good, accepting, loving Christians", then count me out. I believe God still means what He said and says - our sin is sin and is nothing to be proud of or accepted. It's to be brought to the foot of the cross for forgiveness, cleansing, and deliverance. And that may require me to have some discomfort. Paul said he died daily, that he struck a blow to his flesh to bring it under submission (yes, I interpret that figuratively). But it's still not necessarily pleasant. It may require me resisting that urge to over eat and say "God help me'. It may require us to turn our eyes and not look at something on TV or how someone's dressed in the store when looking would feed our lust. It may require me to live without something in this life that hurts my flesh.
For instance, regarding this specific issue; I believe that if someone (either born or developed) has the tendency/drive/attraction to same sex, they may not be able to "help" that (within themselves). If God doesn't deliver the desire/tendency, He can still help us live for Him. If we have a propensity, that doesn't mean we're required to act on it and practice it. In this case, with God's help, seeking faithfulness to Him through celibacy. That could be painful. It's an inconvenience. But God says many things, including that He will comfort us and be our all if we seek and look to Him. That this life is temporary, and our home is in the heavenlies. That the struggles and pain of this life don't compare to what He has in store for those who love Him.
I don't think it's even debatable that we are to love and treat with kindness everyone around us who possibly allows it. But I also don't think we should fail to differentiate between what God says is right and wrong, just because it's not popular or doesn't "feel right" ("lean not to your [my] own understanding"). Also, scripture makes clear a distinction between struggling with sin (not wanting it, not trying to justify it, seeking help with it ["the things i don't want to do, I do, etc."]) vs. accepting it, justifying it, denying it. God told David "you are the man", and I've had Him say that to me as well. If anyone is deliberately sinning, without repentance, standing "proud" in their sin, I believe scripture teaches the church to deal with that by confronting it and encouraging repentance and a return to God, including restoration into the fellowship.
I believe each must decide, in each circumstance, how God would have us deal with each person in each situation. Always loving, always looking for restoration. I personally don't go around slamming people for anything, including their lifestyle. But I believe we ought to know the difference, and be ready to minister a word of reconciliation that's scripturally sound when led by the Spirit to do so.
It's been said by someone earlier that we should love people into the kingdom. I agree with that. However, I also see a difference between the "world" [those that don't know God, have never been spiritually reborn] and those within the church who are teaching and living blatant error and trying to get others to accept it as "their truth". Scripture says we don't judge the world. His Words have already done that. We love them and point them to Christ. However, scripture also says we are to rightly judge things within the church, i.e., those naming the name of Christ. I don't believe that means harshness or being unloving, but that it does mean being willing to take a stand against a wave of popularity if necessary, and IF and WHEN led, be willing to minister "here's what God says, and He'll forgive and restore if we ask Him and turn to Him".
God help me and help us all.
:iagree:
Excellent. Balanced. Comprehensive.
Loving sinners into the kingdom does not mean justifying sin.
There is deliverance and victory available for those who desire to be pleasing to the Father.
Also, I would add that God established the family as the fabric of the creation. The destruction of families is the single greatest cause of the disruption of communities and individual lives. Where God is there is always family, but He instituted the way of multiplying mankind- not just as some kind of method for growth. Fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers- all ordaind for the security and safety and wholeness of little ones growing strong in a secure environment. "Because iniquity abounds the love of many will grow cold"... this flood of sin in our nation is loosening the bonds of familial affection and the result is a level of torment and confusion among our children such as has never before been known.
But the flood did not begin with homosexuality. We are seeing the latter end of greed and arrogance and lust and worshipping the creation over the creator manifest as a level of confusion that penetrates even the simplist knowledge- like "what gender i am"- and erodes it. This celebration of homosexuality and transgenderism is the tail end of the fall of a house built upon sand.
I do understand dandelion's post tho. I am assuming many of these folks are Christians struggling with homosexuality, and having ministered to them also, I can bear witness that many of them are not celebrating their gayness, but tormented by it. As Cardinal shared, it is a difficult thing to overcome, requirng the help and power of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it is demonic, sometimes it is due to early childhood abuse and trauma, always it is destructive confusion.
We do have to walk in the Spirit, and we ought to be able to minister deliverance and healing to any believer who is in bondage to things like this... but that requires a dedication to the ministry of prayer and counsel - and a unity and love between believers in ministry that is rare in these times.
Thanks John, much agreement. :thumbsup:
Sorry to re-open this discussion, jabcat.
I am not one to follow any trends, trust me. God just had me know many homosexuals in my lifetime, for whatever His purpose was. I did not look for this niche, nor am I concerned with the political correctness of it.
I understand what you are saying. Almost all the homosexuals I know, who are active in ministry, are not vocal about their sexual preference. They are not trying to get the church to accept homosexuality, as they don't speak about it, except with family and close friends. I also understand we are born with tendencies and that we have temptations. The issue of homosexuality often makes people outcasts of society...... often, within their own family, church, and community. It is not really something that can be explained simply, in a blog.
I believe we are all born dead in our sin.....only through our identity with Christ are we then righteous. Absolutely. I believe all the things you said about sin and not giving into what the world dictates. I am considered conservative in my religious thinking. My life is an open book and I walk the 'straight and narrow', by anyone's criteria. My recreation is spent doing ministry or attending Christian events, or with family/friends. My association with homosexuals does not bring me into worldly activities. So, for me to say this, is very 'out of character'. But, it is hard to ignore what I have seen, observed, prayed about and watched unfold over my lifetime, as well.
I will end the discussion here. I apologize for taking this discussion a place you would have rather it not go. My life's goal is to surrender and trust my life to God, so, I take this, and every spiritual matter, very seriously.
Thanks for your responses, jabcat and eaglesway. I saw your response after taking a while to write this one, EW, so forgive me for not directly addressing your points, as well.
I haven't read all your post in detail D, I was working on this one as well then saw you'd posted; but I'll go ahead and post this then read it carefully :)
Quote from: eaglesway on August 04, 2015, 09:37:28 AM
I do understand dandelion's post tho. I am assuming many of these folks are Christians struggling with homosexuality, and having ministered to them also, I can bear witness that many of them are not celebrating their gayness, but tormented by it. As Cardinal shared, it is a difficult thing to overcome, requirng the help and power of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, and when that's the case, our hearts should break for them and cry out in support of them. We're all clay. God just wants us to admit it and submit to the Potter to continue shaping us [and His grace cover us] rather than deny it and continue to do what's right in our own eyes. :2c:
You didn't re-open it D, and I'm yacking away too LOL :LH:. Hey, once it's back on the table, well, "here we go". :coffee: Probably something good comes of it, one way or another.
I don't personally always (hardly ever) know how to do this or do it well. I'm more so talking about ideas, ideals, things I believe we should stand for and encourage, as I understand from the scriptures and hopefully the Spirit's leading.
Again, if someone's struggling, then God bless and help them. We should love and encourage them/each other.
If someone's deceived, blatantly rebellious and being deceiving, then I think there's a place for correction - but only as scripturally sound, in love/the right spirit, and as LED by the SPIRIT.
Cardinal,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry. I will be thinking about what you wrote.
I also wanted to say that I appreciate 'hearing' the thoughts and ideas of everyone who writes on the forum.
I wish I could meet all of you guys.
Pat
Mixed up?
I learned of the Spirit through experience with the Spirit. The Book came into play afterwards.
Sure, I was raised in a legalistic fundamentalist church, but I did not meet Christ there. I met Christ searching for love.
I learned to stick with the Spirit even in my sin. As an adolescent, I struggled with the same flesh struggle all of us boys do. I condemned myself for it, but I stuck with Christ and found that Christ stuck with me.
I'm 50 now and sex pretty much is not the struggle. I struggle with a wife who struggles with faith. I understand her and love her, and I may be the only one who does, aside from Christ who carries her. I struggle with a step son who has no conscious of stealing and boundaries and can not overcome addiction...........his son is the reason he still abides in my house. I have to learn to not hate in the midst of being taken advantage of. I'd be happier if the boy was gay and had a sound mind. The only relief I find is to love, and not hate. I must overlook the sin, in order to love. "Love covers the multitude of sin".
Christ ministers to us in the midst of our sin, and not half heatedly, we get all of His love. He does not care if you are gay, He loves, and wants you to do the same.
The SCOTUSA has done us all a favor. There is no gender in Christ, there is no sex in Christ, there is no marriage in the kingdom of heaven other then us to Christ.
Politics can infuriate people, but in Christ there is no politics. We always get back to the Kingdom within each individual. No one individual is better then another, all of us are united in that one Word of God, Jesus Christ.
Have to clock in, I'm sure I did not get to my point if I had one.
Enjoyed all of your sharing.
Quickly, in response. To my knowledge, there is no really effective program for assisting homosexuals out there. There are some attempts, but with little good results.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
This is a pattern I see most often. The child grows up, different and confused. Gets to adolescence or adulthood, and realizes they are homosexual. They and their family are in chaos. The person becomes seriously depressed, often attempting suicide, going to extensive counseling, all kinds of programs, shock-therapy out of state, and so on. This could go on for years. Then one day, they realize if they don't accept who they are on some level, they will either kill themselves or destroy themselves from medication for depression and so on. So, they try to come to grips with the situation, as best as they can. They often resent now, the rest of the world telling them to just stop being a homosexual, after they have gone through all the emotional issues they have had to deal with, and all the treatments that did not work. They have watched their family struggle, as well, and sometimes their parents, spouse or children almost be destroyed.
Then, they decide, I am a homosexual, let me live my life as faithful to God as I can, which can take a few different turns, at this point. They still are on anti-depressents their entire life; go to therapy and struggle, every single day. They dodge the bullets of fellow Christians, continually, both individually and corporately.
They live a lonely existence, with few people who know who they really are. Sometimes, they are a Pastor or some type of Christian minister, and the bullets are more plentiful and more frequent then. But, they go on and praise the Lord, and try to make their lives count for something to bring about God's kingdom. They love the people who, if they really knew who they were, would do whatever they could to stop them from ministering in a Christian setting. They love and honor a God, whom they sometimes feel bewildered by, as they don't know what to do with their dilemma. They are perplexed why, if they are not to be homosexual, there seems no answer to stop them from being so.
With all the praying, Christian counseling, serving God, and so on, there seems no respite to them.
And they are often very, very alone and lonely people.
This is what the Lord has given me a front seat to.
Perhaps that better explains my own struggle and upset. As I said, I love them, am there for them, and keep my belief that God wanted a union between a man and a woman, to make a family. I don't understand all the reasons homosexuality happens. Sometimes, I have no good answers for my friends. I must remember not to focus on their storm, but on Christ, as in every aspect of life. It is not always easy for me, I will admit. Their pain is so intense and permeating............ But, I believe God can do the impossible.....I never lose hope, for any situation, and keep the door open for the miracles that could happen.
Thank you again jabcat and eaglesway, for your input. Thanks to ed, as well. It is appreciated.
Please keep myself and my dear friends and family in prayer. We all could so use it.
D.
:cloud9: Thanks Dandelion for pointing out something I didn't cover. I didn't mean to imply that all of them are happy with their "choice" or that to them it was as "easy" as a choice. I had a friend from High School who was one of 20 boys molested by their postman, who gave in to it in college, ended up calling his mother at 3am lots of times, crying saying he didn't want to be that way. He ended up abandoned by his family when he got AIDS, dying in another State. My heart broke for him when I heard his story from a family friend.
As to why most Christian ministries trying to deal with the situation are not effective, I recently discovered some spiritual truths. A 3 way cord is needed to get people released out of the pit of their emotions, where Leviathan drags them down the bottom. Ever try to get 3 people to agree to fast and pray for someone for months? God blessed me to have someone that agreed with me and did for my daughter, and she was finally released (not homosexual, but serious drug addiction).
The root problem lies in the emotions, part of what was alluded to in Peter's sinking into the whipped up waves. As a result of this, my daughter was set free in one hour on my living room couch, and ONLY God gets the glory because no rehab, ect. was used. She is the beginning of what I believe is many like miracles as she knows her God and walks in her calling. To God be all the glory.
I believe this applies because I've personally never met a homosexual or lesbian that was not molested as a child. The emotional pain and shame this brings onto the victim, is the hold Leviathan gets and dragging down begins.
This homosexual phenonmenon is one of the last gasps of a dying nation, and I agree with EW about the flood. All major civilizations that fell had 3 things in common. 1) Homosexuality became rampant, 2) abuse or murder of children became the norm, 3) abuse or euthanasia of the elderly became rampant.
This topic should be on the prayer lists of all Christians because they are openly being taken over by darkness and most Christians seem to only be content with either condemning them or standing idly by and watching their destruction. Who is our brother's keeper?
I am so grieved in my Spirit right now over what is happening to Bruce Jenner as he continues to fall prey to this thing, mutilating his body to it's fulfillment, the whole time being deceived to the extent that he honestly believes he is doing some great thing for humanity, while all the audience to this Satanic plan cheers him for his "courage" and "honesty". Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of others, many of them children, trying to wrestle with this thing without a clue what they are up against.
I cannot help but think of what a horror it will be in the Lord's return when he is restored to his right mind, to realize he has mutilated himself at the unction of a demonic spirit that attached itself to him in childhood. God help us all, for we will give an accounting as well. This nation will be judged and that judgment will not be forthcoming much longer.
I think there is a way to discuss this subject that is spiritually fruitful and maybe helpful to someone struggling with it behind this screen, and a way to discuss it that is titillating to the flesh. I believe we are currently in the former category, and so I can't apologize for adding my :2c: Blessings....
Jesus was ministering the Law to the Jews because they had to struggle with it until they reached out for a Savior.
Paul on the other hand was ministering to gentiles most of whom were morally bankrupt. In many city states in Greece, homosexuality was practiced wantonly. The same goes for the women/lesbians. They worshiped false idols/gods and, imo the women were very outspoken in the temple, which carried over into the church.
I figure that Paul was laying things out so the church would have a testimony of godliness. The sinner is welcomed but not the sin however, a grace period should be given because we know the struggles! I just think that a lot of sinful practices were remnants that were finding their way into the church.
Shalom :Peace2:
Jock.
Quote from: ed on August 04, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
Mixed up?
I learned of the Spirit through experience with the Spirit. The Book came into play afterwards.
Sure, I was raised in a legalistic fundamentalist church, but I did not meet Christ there. I met Christ searching for love.
I learned to stick with the Spirit even in my sin. As an adolescent, I struggled with the same flesh struggle all of us boys do. I condemned myself for it, but I stuck with Christ and found that Christ stuck with me.
I'm 50 now and sex pretty much is not the struggle. I struggle with a wife who struggles with faith. I understand her and love her, and I may be the only one who does, aside from Christ who carries her. I struggle with a step son who has no conscious of stealing and boundaries and can not overcome addiction...........his son is the reason he still abides in my house. I have to learn to not hate in the midst of being taken advantage of. I'd be happier if the boy was gay and had a sound mind. The only relief I find is to love, and not hate. I must overlook the sin, in order to love. "Love covers the multitude of sin".
Christ ministers to us in the midst of our sin, and not half heatedly, we get all of His love. He does not care if you are gay, He loves, and wants you to do the same.
The SCOTUSA has done us all a favor. There is no gender in Christ, there is no sex in Christ, there is no marriage in the kingdom of heaven other then us to Christ.
Politics can infuriate people, but in Christ there is no politics. We always get back to the Kingdom within each individual. No one individual is better then another, all of us are united in that one Word of God, Jesus Christ.
Have to clock in, I'm sure I did not get to my point if I had one.
Enjoyed all of your sharing.
Hi brother ed, please consider, I believe you are actually mixing the kingdom now with the kingdom coming in some of your thoughts you shared, as well as an interpretation issue with the following. Although you quote him :) ("neither male nor female") I know you don't care for, or necessarily believe Paul's teachings, but he (and other scriptures) have much to say about sexual function within the church - based on male and female distinctions and what God has ordained and sanctified. And per this topic, it's not functioning in an active, unrepentant homosexual capacity. For instance, I would contend if your step-son was [actively, accepting] "gay", he would not have a sound mind. The scriptures clearly say that those who practice such things reap the consequences. Also, that others should not approve of them. It's there in scripture, I can't take it out. What I have to do is adjust myself to the written Word, not adjust the written Word to me and my wishes.
So IMO, the "no male or female in Christ" must be applied to what is contextually accurate, not attempt to make it mean things that are direct conflict with other plain scripture. I don't believe this can be spiritualized away.
I do believe there have been many loving, scripturally sound things said about this over the days, including dandelion's, Cardinal's, and Jocks posts today. Many things you said ed are edifying as well, I just don't think all of what you said can be backed up with attempts at reconciliation of all scripture - the whole. IMO however, the issue of whether practicing homosexual behavior is a sin or not is not a debatable topic on TM. TM is a Christ and Biblical-based site (they're not separated or divided) and will always lean toward scripture vs. someone's individual preference apart from scripture.
That said, I'll ask that if there's anything further anyone would like to add in order to either 1) help the individual who might be struggling with a besetting sin they don't want or 2) shed light on how as a body to better help those who are struggling and need support, love, and victory, then please do. Otherwise, I'm considering locking the thread and having it as one we can refer people to who may come with either honest questions, as well as those wishing to stir dissension through objection or sowing confusion. Thanks, have a blessed day. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on August 04, 2015, 08:44:04 PM
That said, I'll ask that if there's anything further anyone would like to add in order to either 1) help the individual who might be struggling with a besetting sin they don't want or 2) shed light on how as a body to better help those who are struggling and need support, love, and victory, then please do. Otherwise, I'm considering locking the thread and having it as one we can refer people to who may come with either honest questions, as well as those wishing to stir dissension through objection or sowing confusion. Thanks, have a blessed day. :HeartThrob:
It is a good thread Jabcat.............I'd support any way you want to go with it.
:thumbsup:
thanks ed..we can see how it goes. if it remains productive/helpful, that's what we're here for. if we start going around in circles we may jump off before we get too dizzy :)
Amen :dsunny:
I think that there are different kinds of homosexuality. One is genuine, ie there are men and women who are simply not fit for a marriage to the opposite sex because they do not have the proper sexual orientation by birth. This is the kind of people that experienced same-sex attraction even as children, and they had another puberty also than heterosexual people. It would be wrong to force them to engage in heterosexuality when for them that would feel like rape. And because their orientation is genuine by birth, I think there is no sin in their homosexuality even if they act it out in gay marriage.
But there is also homosexuality that is not genuine and means a straying from your real self. This one is lust based and in essence it is just fornication in another way. This means, if you have a wife, you can't simply leave her even if you are bisexual or desire strongly someone of the same sex. That would be just a new habit and we are demanded to be faithful to our marriage partners.
In both cases however we are called by Christ not to judge and to be compassionate. You cannot make homosexuals the scapegoats of the world and remember that even if you consider it a sin, it is not a sin againt goodness or against love. Humans are supposed to be brothers and there are definetly worse things than homosexuality and remember that homosexuals often love their partners and want to marry them. Paul also calls sexual sins sins against the self. So it's not something that hurts other people and would constitute a crime. So do not judge and be accepting.
God bless you!
People who do not understand the purpose for, and glory of, marriage and the union of a man and a woman- in the scheme of God's creation, often seem to stumble at the point of "why" and "who with" regarding sex partners.
Sex outside of marriage is sin(fornication or adultery or homosexuality).
Sexual sin is something many people deal with from childhood for a variety of reasons- hetero and homo sexual.
The solution is to acknowledge the will of God in whatever state of the fallen creation we find ourselves in- again, hetero or homo.... God did not give sex for a source of random sensual fulfillment but as the privilege of a man and a woman committed for life, become one flesh.
Therefore we do not condemn anyone, and offer salvation to all, having once all been sinners of various kinds ourselves, but we do adhere to the truth of God's word concerning creation, that He created them male and female and the purpose of that is to become one flesh.
Sex outside of marriage is sin, and God does not recognize marriage between members of the same sex, altho the state may. For the state it is a legal issue connected tto human responsibilities and priveleges related to long term relationships and the disposition of their practical affairs and the laws regarding such. OK. So be it. Call it marriage- it doesnt make it so.
In the body of Christ, ideally(and as Christians we must deal with the ideal of God's plan for us- acknowledging it even if we have failed or been thwarted in the pursuit of it), we are only to have sexual relations within the sanctity of the marriage bed, between a man and a woman, committed through marriage before God and become one flesh.
What the world does, as they stumble about in darkness, is just the crescendo of confusion and destruction as they pull further and further away from knowing God....."In the last days the love of many will grow cold, because iniquity will abound".
:thumbsup:
anti, I don't believe the view you have expressed is scripturally sound. Please see eaglesway's response for a balanced, scriptural view; i.e., rightly dividing the scripture to be able to accurately reflect the believer's view toward sin. Recognizing it for what the scriptures say it is, and not condoning it, while still loving the person and offering them respect and a hand toward the Savior for forgiveness, deliverance, strength for endurance, grace for sustenance, as the Lord offers to honest and yielded souls.
I believe plenty has been said in this thread; room given for alternative views (including pretty clearly non-scriptural) as well as scriptural-based views presented as in eaglesway's response above. IMO, this thread keeps popping up like a bad rash and I'm locking it. I believe there's plenty here we can refer people to when the topic comes up again. I believe most if not all questions have been answered in the thread if one is truly open to look.