SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

Butch Cassidy

To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."

But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.

On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "

[Tom]

I agree Rodger.

[rodgertutt]

I agree Rodger.

:thumbsup:

CHARLES SLAGLE

Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.

If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 76 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm

You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle

In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.

If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.

After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?

[eaglesway]

Most of the extreme developments of systematic theology surround these simple questions about why God would create billions of souls and either

1) Choose most of them to burn forever

2) Allow most of them to choose to burn forever.

The real reason for teaching Eternal Torment is to keep people bound, through fear, in the exclusive religions of man.

I see the Salvation of All in the scriptures as being simply demonstrated to either view.

[Abigail]

I agree Rodger.

:thumbsup:

CHARLES SLAGLE

Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.

If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 76 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm

You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle

:iagree:
I found this website with some articles and read them all:
http://sigler.org/slagle/
Are there any more? Or do you mean these books: http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Slagle/e/B001IXMK3I

[rodgertutt]

I agree Rodger.

:thumbsup:

CHARLES SLAGLE

Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.

If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 76 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm

You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle

:iagree:
I found this website with some articles and read them all:
http://sigler.org/slagle/
Are there any more? Or do you mean these books: http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Slagle/e/B001IXMK3I

That first link is the one I was referring to Abigail.
I hope you enjoyed those articles as much as I did. :-)
I wasn't aware of the Amazon link.
Thanks for your input Tom.

THE FOLLOWING IS BY BRIAN ON CITY-DATA CHRISTIAN FORUM

pcamps has been very scripturally bringing us back to the fact that God is not holding men's sins against them. Can you believe it? Can God just forgive people freely? Is that fair? Is that "just??"

Well, it's not only fair. It's GRACE!!

Now, from this link here: Sovereignty Scriptures
I was truly blessed this morning.
Here's what I feel the LORD was showing me this morning, verse-by-verse:

Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now many refers to the whole world. Just as the "many" in Romans 5 refers to all mankind, so here too, many are indeed called by God, in God's time. However, only a few are chosen in this life (such as Paul the apostle) to declare His Grace and His Glory to the world.

Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."

When God makes the sinner to hear His word, He causes the man to be converted and healed. Without this intervention of God directly in a person's life, there can be no healing and conversion. God does it all, in His time. When one person is "saved," that's God at work. If a person is "not saved," it's simply that God is not yet doing work in that person.

Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.

Again, it is GOD who TURNS us AWAY from our sin. He does it in His time. It is an active work on His part, and until He works in the individual, that person can do nothing.

Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

See that? God added the Law on purpose, in order to increase the transgression. Do you believe that God is for us? If you do, then you must know by now that God increased transgression, in order that His grace would supercede it. It's all GOD's doing!! Praise God!
Let's continue:

Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Here again we see clearly, that justification is God's gift, brought in by His Own Hand, and has been extended to ALL mankind. That includes Hitler and Bundy, like it or not!

Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Yes, God made vessels of wrath. But He doesn't show His wrath on them, but brings them unto salvation by grace, according to His timing.

11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.

Here is God's final plan. He has made all people sinners, in order to have mercy upon them all! His grace is what saves us, not any works we have done. It is G-R-A-C-E which He bestows upon each sinner, one-by-one, reviving each one as He sees fit!

Grace means that man has no part in it whatsoever. Grace means that, one day, God comes to you and draws you unto Him, giving you conversion and healing. It is by grace that we are saved. As He called Saul, so He will do to each one, in His own time.

Praise God!!
I hope someone out there can hear this!!

Blessings,
Brian

A little more on grace:

Jesus told His disciples that no one would be able to come to Him without the Father's drawing power. (Like a spiritual tractor beam..)

ET denys this. ET says that man can draw himself to God at any time. But that is not scriptural. Grace means that it is God's doing, not man's. Here's more:
Quote:
"Lk. 8:10 To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables; in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand."
God purposely opens the eyes of some people, and blinds other people. Why? To show His Grace in His time!
Quote:
"Lk. 10:21-22 No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Here again, Jesus shows us plainly that it is the decision of the Father and the Son, not man.
Quote:
"Mk. 4:10-12 To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables.... lest they return again and be forgiven."
Question: Have you repented and been forgiven?? If yes, then you must know that it was GOD who made you to understand it. Men who have not been drawn yet do not understand that they have been forgiven! Hallelujah! BUT, when the Father DRAWS you, He spontaneously converts and forgives and heals you!! It is HIS doing, not man's. This is what is so important to understand. Otherwise, you cannot understand what is meant by God's grace.
Quote:
"Jn. 6:65 For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Does the Father "grant" it to everyone? Yes, but not at the same time! That's why some are saved now. "Many are called, but few are chosen." That doesn't mean that most are rejected! That means that a few are chosen in this life. But all are called eventually.
Quote:
"Jn. 12:32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself."
Here's the promise! Jesus will indeed draw all men. Some now, the rest later. Count on it! 
Quote:
"Jn. 17:2 Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give life eonian."
Does Jesus have authority over all mankind? YES, and He knows how to use it to our advantage, folks! It's called GRACE!
Quote:
"Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."
Did God do something here without man's permission?!?  YES! He BLESSED us by turning us from our wickedness!
Does that include Ted Bundy?? YES! (But Bundy didn't know it, poor fellow.. But by now he probably already knows it!  )

THAT is God's GRACE. He reveals His Power to us individually, according to when He so chooses. Individually. And when He does, we are set free!
Quote:
"Acts 11:18 God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Repentance IS GRANTED, NOT CHOSEN. By GRACE we are saved. God's decision, NOT ours!
Quote:
"Acts 18:27 On arriving, he [Paul] was a great help to those who by grace had believed."
and this:
Quote:
"Acts 16:14 And the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
Now do you see it???? Oh, I do hope so!!!   

Blessings of God's grace to all!!!
Brian

Men are afraid of God. And death.

Why?

Because they haven't yet been shown by the Father that they have been blessed with Life! And when He draws them to Himself, they will automatically convert and be revived from the dead! All this, by God's grace!

Jesus told the centurion that he would be "thrust down to hell." Was he? I believe he was. But not in the afterlife, but while on Earth, when he saw people receiving God's grace to know Life! What Life? Eternal Life? It is a quality of life. And others were receiving it, and he was tormented because he was not yet drawn by the Father.

But when the Father decides to draw him individually, he will spontaneously repent, be healed and revived into that same Eternal Life.

All according to God's grace.

May God's grace touch each of us today!
Brian

[rodgertutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker...Prevailing.html

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."

And they were reading the Bible in its original language. 

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html   

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM

GOD'S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://web.archive.org/liveweb/http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/ 

IN THE GARDEN
http://web.archive.org/liveweb/http://web.archive.org/web/20110702091239/http://gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, "I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it's what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer." That's why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I'm 76 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html 

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html   

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm 

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Don't kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm 

[rodgertutt]

Infant Salvation

Believers in eternal torment are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.

Some, who believe in God's sovereign election of the "few", also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin said, "There are babies a span long in hell".
Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It's true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if evangelicals are right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.

Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies' eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 102 year old Dad often says, "That's what makes Him God!"

(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!

* Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!

[rodgertutt]

IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson

"For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!'" Lk. 14:28-30. God's perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.

God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God "wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:4. And "All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss" Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.

Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. "Not stronger than He are we!" 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.

[Dandelion]

The real reason for teaching Eternal Torment is to keep people bound, through fear, in the exclusive religions of man.    :iagree:

I agree with this, eaglesway.

I also think that many people look at ET and ED as the way things should be.....partly because it has been taught that way, and has permeated our thoughts, collectively, almost since the early Christians, and partly because, when we think in the flesh, this paradigm seems to suit our earthly sense of 'fairness'.

Sometimes, I read articles that say, why do we need to evangelize, if we are all eventually going to heaven? This makes no sense to me. Shouldn't everyone know about God's love, now, or as soon as possible? God pours His everlasting love on us, and gave us His Son, who died for us. He created us, sustains us, gave us the Story of Salvation in the Bible, gives us all good things, and on and on. Our response should be to just want to love Him, simply for being who He is......not thinking whether or not we need to love Him, for our own benefits. If that is the way people think it should be, then what kind of love do we promote for God....or even the concept of what love is? How we will then love one another?

'Love never fails'. It is looking like that is going to become my 'slogan'. Simple, to the point, and very clear.   :Gclap:

1 John 4:18 - 19

...18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us.

The above quote is also starting to take on a whole new meaning for me. A very Christian UR meaning, if you know what I mean.  Do any of you see it this way, too?  :cheerleader:

[Dandelion]

Infant Salvation

Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this "the age of accountability".
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn't matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don't try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies' eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of "saving souls". Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say "I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God's provision." God will get all of the glory for everyone's salvation.
The important issue never should be "what is right or what is wrong". The only really important issue is, "What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !" The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 102 year old Dad often says, "That's what makes Him God!"

(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective "soul-savers" in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!

* Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!

Very funny, yet tragically 'logical' rodgertutt! 

I am a very, very new convert to Christian UR, of only a few weeks, but, more and more, I am seeing the need for getting this view out there.

I also am realizing the implications, more and more, of doing so.

Good thing I was never an 'in the box' person, anyway. It makes it easier for me to be willing to take risks with this. Still, quite a challenge, however. I can think of more than a few friends, who will be alientated, and/ or thinking I have lost my mind....or even better, now going to Hell!    :LH:

[rodgertutt]

ITCHING EARS

Sometimes believers in eternal torment and annihilation like to say that 2Tim. 4:3&4 about a time coming when people will have "itching ears" and will turn to believing myths or fables, refers to believers in universal salvation.
But I think it refers to believers in eternal torment and annihilation instead because most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation.

ETers and ANers like to have their itching ears scratched by listening to sermons based on the myth or fable that only people who believe like they do before they die are going to avoid suffering forever in "hell" or be annihilated.

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm

[rodgertutt]

TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT

My wife Helen and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub 

See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.  Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
or
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/

[rodgertutt]

JACOB AND ESAU

http://blogs.christianpost.com/engaging-the-culture/jacob-i-loved-esau-i-hated-8030/

[rosered]

JACOB AND ESAU

http://blogs.christianpost.com/engaging-the-culture/jacob-i-loved-esau-i-hated-8030/

I love the fact being RODGER  ..........

You share so much   !! reminds me of Finelinen    '' in his time'' ...   a beloved brother in the Lord like you !! :HeartThrob:
God always supplies,,, the faithful   regular  distributors  of His word

   The LORD BLESSED     a  discovery of Jacob and  Esau     to me   many years ago  that I have never forgotten      and GODS WORD  IS   ENDLESS  applying for all     and for all times............. being   that  we are here    and faith    pleases God     !!  It  moves mountains     and raises the dead    to life again   and  makes a plain     a highway

for easier travel and walking in the Spirit    .   All  though '''Jesus Christ  ''  the BODY OF LIFE     ..

But to  the point here on the twins       ...........   just as the twins of Cain and Abel     ,  We can see a pattern      representing the good and evil in everyone [men as trees walking ]   Mark 8 ;24   and making the tree good and its fruit good 



Esau (ISO 259-3 ʕeśaw ; Greek: Ἡσαῦ Hēsau ; Arabic: عِيسُو ‎ 'Īsaw ; meaning "Hairy" or "Rough"), in the Jewish Bible, is the older son of Isaac.  hunter

Jacob being the younger and the smooth skinned man      and heel supplanter [holder  catcher ] That supplants, undermines, the heel sheep herder

and  the  one whom lifts up his  heel   against ME   being the very thing that JESUS SAID  would happen ..  as we see  in the old as Jacob and Esau ,,

Jacob to me represents the Spirit within  a man       whom the first  is the  carnal and beastly man [Esau] representing all flesh and we know no FLESH pleases God [    God hates Esau ?]    no good thing in the flesh it profits nothing    is actually  the body of death ] dead know nothing about God .. darkness , night , grave etc , many examples of the flesh 

    and We also know that faith   is what does please God      by the Spirit in a man  , and Jacob is that man      whom   was the Christ or anointed  one   for that time to prove  the younger being the spiritual man born   last would rule as first and the   first being Esau  would  loose his place [birthright]    as  ruler

  the first shall be last and the last shall be first   ,  Spirit ruling over the flesh [ cain was  warned of this sin lying at the door  to enslave him, but should  dominate it , I see killing his brother  Abel  as  destroying his spiritual breath self '' himself ''    making him   a slave to the sin nature ...

I can see this in every human      born on the earth whom is  conceived   of the tree of knowledge of good and evil      and what they have represented throughout the old testament

JESUS CHRIST represents the tree of Life    growing   within us all   
I know this may sound odd   to some    ,  But the Bible is very much  our example
the WORD OF GOD testifies of Jesus Christ   and we can see Him  in the Spirit   in every called man to serve the LIVING GOD    from the beginning to the end and it is Love being  what conquers all    .... :HeartThrob: 

  I AM THE GOD OF  ABRAHAM   ISAAC AND JACOB   , THE GOD OF THE LIVING   , and not the dead ... 

 

[rodgertutt]

Thanks rosered  :HeartThrob:

John 3:16
DESTRUCTION IS NOT ETERNAL

Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas.
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?" http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm

[rodgertutt]

DRAW / DRAG?

In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).

When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram  http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex5.html#115a

It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen

[eaglesway]

I believe yes, He will draw them. The love of God expressed in Christ crucified is the love song that woos the entire universe into His fold.

"Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"

"Behold, I am making all things new"

[rosered]

  :iagree:   The overwhelming  LOVE  of God,  is what will cause all to surrender   gladly

  God Himself is the source of all  Love.

Love  conquers all  , the gift of Jesus Christ   being sent to mankind proves  it .

It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.)

All will know , for me , dying in the physical death is not the end all  , but actually the beginning  of knowing the Love of God in His fulness [true birthing  out of the earth ] and  discovering what a true,''  new creature in Christ ''  really is and means    and KNOWN
  The real binding and loosing   will be complete   in God   

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

1Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,


it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.


7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

I love it that    GOD would not expect this from us   if it were not possible to achieve

and Knowing  He would never expect   anything less   than to complete   this in us   ,

and We KNOW HE IS COMPLETE AND PERFECT IN LOVE  :HeartThrob:

Always considering the source of all power is of Him by HOLY SPIRIT

Mark 12  "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.


30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."



  1 John 4 God's Love and Ours



7 Dear friends, let us love one another,

for love comes from God.

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


9 This is how God showed his love among us:

He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.


10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.


12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us:

He has given us of his Spirit.



14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.


15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.


16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.


17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment:

In this world we are like Jesus.


18 There is no fear in love.

But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.

The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us.


20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar.

For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

[Dandelion]

  :iagree:   The overwhelming  LOVE  of God,  is what will cause all to surrender   gladly

  God Himself is the source of all  Love.

Love  conquers all  , the gift of Jesus Christ   being sent to mankind proves  it .

It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.)

All will know , for me , dying in the physical death is not the end all  , but actually the beginning  of knowing the Love of God in His fulness [true birthing  out of the earth ] and  discovering what a true,"  new creature in Christ "  really is and means    and KNOWN
 
The real binding and loosing   will be complete   in God   

I love it that    GOD would not expect this from us   if it were not possible to achieve

and Knowing  He would never expect   anything less   than to complete   this in us   ,

and We KNOW HE IS COMPLETE AND PERFECT IN LOVE  :HeartThrob:

:iagree:      :banana:

Yes, rosered! Thank you!

Beautiful!

When we encounter Christ, face to face, we will not only be convinced of his sovereignty, if we are not already, but we will feel His tremendous love for us.....and truly appreciate the sacrifice He made for us, on Calvary! 

LOVE NEVER FAILS!

Psalm 139 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

139 To the Overseer. -- A Psalm by David. Jehovah, Thou hast searched me, and knowest.
2 Thou -- Thou hast known my sitting down, And my rising up, Thou hast attended to my thoughts from afar.
3 My path and my couch Thou hast fanned, And [with] all my ways hast been acquainted.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, Lo, O Jehovah, Thou hast known it all!
5 Behind and before Thou hast besieged me, And Thou dost place on me Thy hand.
6 Knowledge too wonderful for me, It hath been set on high, I am not able for it.
7 Whither do I go from Thy Spirit? And whither from Thy face do I flee?
8 If I ascend the heavens -- there Thou [art], And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!
9 I take the wings of morning, I dwell in the uttermost part of the sea,
10 Also there Thy hand doth lead me, And Thy right hand doth hold me.
11 And I say, `Surely darkness bruiseth me, Then night [is] light to me.
12 Also darkness hideth not from Thee, And night as day shineth, as [is] darkness so [is] light.
13 For Thou -- Thou hast possessed my reins, Thou dost cover me in my mother's belly.
14 I confess Thee, because that [with] wonders I have been distinguished. Wonderful [are] Thy works, And my soul is knowing [it] well.
15 My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth.
16 Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them.
17 And to me how precious have been Thy thoughts, O God, how great hath been their sum!
18 I recount them! than the sand they are more, I have waked, and I am still with Thee.
19 Dost Thou slay, O God, the wicked? Then, men of blood, turn aside from me!
20 Who exchange Thee for wickedness, Lifted up to vanity [are] Thine enemies.
21 Do not I hate, Jehovah, those hating Thee? And with Thy withstanders grieve myself?
22 [With] perfect hatred I have hated them, Enemies they have become to me.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart, Try me, and know my thoughts,
24 And see if a grievous way be in me, And lead me in a way age-during!

Exodus 33:

19 And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

21 Then the Lord said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."


Our incredible God.....who never fails us; who is with us always.....deserving about all else to be loved, and who loves us, with an everlasting love. To Him, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess......

Amen!  :Peace2:

[joeteekay]

Very good point about draw vs. drag.
Love draws, does not drag.
Jas_3:17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

[rosered]

  Amen Dandi  ! and thanks to you all     
  God bless you all    :HeartThrob:

[lastpost]

I also believe that if anyone can look deeply and long enough into the Eyes of Christ, then they will see there that His Love is so completely overwhelming that by the very all-powerful nature of His Love, such a thing as forgiveness not only ceases to have any meaning from His side, but that it becomes unreasonable from an unbiased point of view to think of One who is Divine Love actually harbouring the trivial pettiness of withholding forgiveness from a child created through Himself.

The concept of Forgiveness is given, in my opinion, for the sake of human beings who need to learn how to forgive each other, and also to draw closer to an understanding of the Endless Complete Love of God, because they cannot properly entertain the state of never needing to forgive another because their love covers everything for those they love, and that this love never changes.

Being accustomed to traditional human conceptions, it might help to picture a mother looking down upon the new born child she holds lovingly in her arms, then to think of all such love given by all mothers - and then to amass that love together in one, then to contribute that love as a whole to Christ and how He feels towards the life that was brought into being through Him. In such a scenario where Love Himself is concerned, in my opinion, the giving or the withholding of forgiveness is merely an academic point of discussion.

As I see it, man must learn by stages. Man can only progress to the New by finding something of the Old there with which he is familiar and with which he can assess the New. And so it is, I believe, with the understanding of a Divine Love which far surpasses man's present ability - with his easily shaken temperament over the smallest of things which can not only destroy relationships but which can even start violence - to take in.

Peace

[rodgertutt]

Is God a Failure? - Eleanor Garrod

Now that's a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I'm certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.

Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don't accept Jesus, you'll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I'd touch a raw nerve. You have, haven't you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.
If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you've heard that God is a failure. 
If you've heard that man's puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man's will can paralyze God's will, then you have heard that God is a failure.
If you've heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you've heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you've heard that God is a failure.
If you've ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He's placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you've clearly heard that God is a failure.
If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that's lost, then you know that God is a failure.
If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.

What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, "Nay, a billion nays." My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become 'All in All' and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.
By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, "Thank you, Jesus." I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!
In Love with Him, Eleanor Garrod

[ed]

Very good point about draw vs. drag.
Love draws, does not drag.
Jas_3:17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Well the dragging has been gentile.

:LH:

I think that we give permission to be dragged as well.  Lord help where I can not help myself, I'm willing to drop doctrines that get in the way.  We get dragged along because we seek it.

I guess I prefer dragged over draw, because I know I'm hardheaded and slow.

I expect it to get a little rough, and that is ok..............love has teeth, as I've heard it said.