Homosexuals. Are they accepted?

[Joanna]

What is the universalist's view on homosexuals, lesbians and transexuals as people? I understand they are all loved by  Jesus.  But they are condemned by the traditional church and Sodom and Gomorrah is preached to mean wickedness practised by homosexuals.

I watched a TV programme about a contraversal church,  the Westboro Baptist Church consisting mainly of one large extended family,  holds up God Hates Fags banners and say evangelist Billy Graham is going to hell.

[sheila]

 Hi Joanna  a few weeks back we had that as a discussion topic.  if you will check back a few pages on the forum..you will find a lot of

discussion on it.   :girlheart:

[JonesHenry]

This is like assuming were going to have ANY kind of sex in heaven :eek:

[newlove]

http://www.matthewvines.com/the-bible-and-homosexuality-why-i-left-college-and-spent-two-years-finding-out-what-the-scriptures-re/

I can not voice the ur position that i don t know.
But i think Matthew Vines and the above link is of
value. Hate is not the way .

[rosered]

Here is a good one to look into I believe   

and your right Jonesy !!!   :LH:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/how-to-treat-others/msg168853/#msg168853

[rosered]

 
  You know when your "perfect"   as the Father ion heaven is perfect , this word means complete   and entire and lack nothing  , Jesus told us in Matt 5     how we become perfect in the bond of Love      , not desires /lusts being  cravings   for meat / like the wilderness experience of Israel   instead of manna    or food or anything   , but love and they are different    , but most   think they are the same things  and clearly they are not .



  I don't think   these kinds of things pertain the the   heavens   or  Kingdom realm    of God    , we are told to have "pure " thoughts  and dwell on them and in them   holy things of God


  They are the earthly things used and   teaching of  judging and being judges in the earthly      realm  of thoughts and bring death  in judgment   

  not life     to me , just my opinion  though ...   I say let God judge   ,   He knows everything and  we sure do not ,,,,    a least I don't know   everything  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Groups can have some "right" beliefs, but deep down hate and not show the love of God due to their/our own brokenness.  Don't go one way or another on what just a TV show or particular group says.  What does the Bible say?

UR or not, the scriptures do not condone sin.  We are to confess it (admit it) and seek deliverance from it.  As sheila said, it's been discussed several times, including recently, so I'm not sure we're going to launch into a long thread again on it here.  Basically, a general understood consensus of "most" in the recent long discussion was that any sin is obviously wrong, we're not to reject or hate people, instead we are to love all and seek restoration of people to God and His will.  Jesus died for our sins.  He wants us out of them, not condoning them.  He wants us to overcome in and through Him.  We all fail, we all need grace and mercy and love and kindness.  But we also need truth, not condoning and excusing.  Truth in love.

To address specific point/questions, there are those who would twist the scriptures to their own demise (and the leading astray of others) 2 Peter 3:16, but the scriptures are clear.  Sin is sin. 

I Cor. 6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."  A true experience with God changes us.  Immediately, and also over time as we grow in Him.

Some try to convince that certain words don't mean what they truly mean, but Paul addressed it clearly in the following passage, without using "those words".  He used clear speech.  "Romans 1:26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.."

God loves, is compassionate..but He disciplines, saves and delivers.  We all are in need of forgiveness.

[joeteekay]

Right on, Jabcat.  :thumbsup:

[Psalm91:4]

Groups can have some "right" beliefs, but deep down hate and not show the love of God due to their/our own brokenness.  Don't go one way or another on what just a TV show or particular group says.  What does the Bible say?

UR or not, the scriptures do not condone sin.  We are to confess it (admit it) and seek deliverance from it.  As sheila said, it's been discussed several times, including recently, so I'm not sure we're going to launch into a long thread again on it here.  Basically, a general understood consensus of "most" in the recent long discussion was that any sin is obviously wrong, we're not to reject or hate people, instead we are to love all and seek restoration of people to God and His will.  Jesus died for our sins.  He wants us out of them, not condoning them.  He wants us to overcome in and through Him.  We all fail, we all need grace and mercy and love and kindness.  But we also need truth, not condoning and excusing.  Truth in love.

To address specific point/questions, there are those who would twist the scriptures to their own demise (and the leading astray of others) 2 Peter 3:16, but the scriptures are clear.  Sin is sin. 

I Cor. 6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."  A true experience with God changes us.  Immediately, and also over time as we grow in Him.

Some try to convince that certain words don't mean what they truly mean, but Paul addressed it clearly in the following passage, without using "those words".  He used clear speech.  "Romans 1:26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.."

God loves, is compassionate..but He disciplines, saves and delivers.  We all are in need of forgiveness.

  :goodpost:

I'd just like to add something that stood out to me in verse 6 , as it pertains to UR.

It's the word "inherit. "

Worse case scenario, those who persist in the particular sins of the flesh mentioned there, will not be ruling and reigning with Jesus ....losing that specific blessing, yet this does not at all prevent their ultimate salvation and deliverence. 

People can lose, give up, trample, waste their inheritance, and consequently suffer great loss because of it.   But in the end, even like the prodigal son who finally came to his senses, our Father sees him even while a far way off, and welcomes him home with great affection.

So, imo, this word "inherit" used there is very important.

[jabcat]

 :) Joe.   :thumbsup: psalm 91:4.  Your post led right into a post I'd been working on in the meantime, as the OP got me thinking about some things.  At first I said I didn't know if we'd launch into another long thread on this, and then here I go  :eek:   :laugh:.

Yes, psalm - rewards, position of service.  "Well-done good and faithful servant", or "saved as by fire".
------
"Accepted"

I don't believe it's incorrect to say that any sin is wrong.  The scriptures are clear on that IMO.

However, I could be open to correction from the Lord on some or all of the following details, as this is what I've come to believe over the years and after being in several different "camps" on some matters.

Some camps say "if you sin at all you're going to hell".  Others say "do anything you want, just love and be a good person and you're going to heaven".  Some say "if you sin at all Jesus isn't in you".  Others say "there is no sin, X,Y,Z isn't really sin, you're OK anyway".

I believe we all sin and are in need of the Savior.  Once knowing the Savior, I believe there's a difference between struggling with sin (not wanting it, admitting it, confessing it, seeking deliverance and to overcome) vs. excusing, accepting, ignoring, explaining away sin.  I believe true believers (those already saved by grace) to one degree or another can fall into the first group.  Here's where it gets controversial (to me), as I know many don't see it the same way or agree with it.  I believe a person can be given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and have very little change occur except something internally, i.e., their spirit saved.  They may not grow much.  They may even stay carnal, still living by the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit.  Can they be a Christian?  I believe 'yes'. So in that sense they're "accepted".   But can they also be living out of God's will?  Be rebellious, disobedient?  Yes.  Paul called a bunch of believers, who were allowing and participating in sin, "saints".  However, he also disciplined them, even shamed them;  casting one man out of fellowship, saying he'd be destroyed but his spirit saved.  He talked about being saved "as by fire".  I take that to mean many, even all works burned up/destroyed, nothing done that's worth keeping, except the grace of God that saved the spirit through belief in Jesus Christ.  So in another sense, not "accepted" (their/our sins excused, explained away, justified.)  I don't believe a person involved in any unrepentant ongoing sin is qualified for leadership or full "acceptance" in ministry, other than being in need of love, compassion, assistance, correction (in love and hope of restoration) of the body.  Finally, even though I don't believe it's our place to judge this, some may profess a belief on Jesus but never truly know Him.  It's just something said, not something experienced through being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  That's why we're called to judge and deal with obvious behavior within the body, not "see" inside someone's heart (only God does that).  Loving - always - but still being willing to call sin sin and encouraging ourselves and others to seek the Master Physician and Deliverer.

I'm sure some find this hard and unacceptable, while others may actually have sound reason to see some of it a bit differently.  But hopefully anyone who disagrees can stand on solid scriptural foundation to say otherwise and show where some things may need to be reconsidered in light of rightly divided scripture (like I said, I could be wrong about some of it) rather than just an emotional/"logical" response.

[rosered]

 

  Good word, James  :HeartThrob:

  sin is error and we all have gone astray from the  straight path    that leads to Life    ,, Jesus Christ  foot steps       walking  in the Spirit of Love

  it is not so much  of saying it    and understanding  it  as it is in doing it    , but we can if the Spirit of truth  is within us
   

[Tom]

Scripture says homosexuality is sin just like other sexual sins and indeed like all sin which is what Jesus Christ died for, and Jesus Christ's blood on the cross will eventually reconcile all on the earth and in the heavens to God. So, despite the fact that the secular court system is slowly but surely legitimizing the homosexual lifestyle, it is still sin, but other sinners, which includes all of us, don't have the right or the authority to condemn any other sinners, including homosexuals, because we're all guilty of sin. We believers just happen to be justified through Christ, but that doesn't give us the right to condemn others. Christ will judge unbelievers before the great white throne who will then go into the second death-the lake of fire. Christ will also judge believers at the dais of Christ where our unworthy works will be burned up, but we'll be saved and rewarded for our good works. Eventually though even unbelievers will be saved at the consummation of the eons when all evil is nullified and even death is abolished. It is then that God will be all in all. I believe all this because it is what the word of God says. I think, regardless of whether the Supreme Court legitimizes homosexual marriage or not, the word of God still says homosexuality is sin, but we need to remember that we're sinners too. So we need to teach our children well about why it may be legal for people of the same gender to get married, God says it's sin. But that doesn't mean we should picket events like funerals condemning homosexuals with signs that say "God Hates Fags" because that sends the wrong message about God who loves all his creatures even though God will eventually remove all evil from the universe. I think people like the Westboro Baptist Church are misguided and preaching hate instead of love, and they're dishonoring God in the process. I think we just have to know that some civil laws don't harmonize with the word of God. Abortion and homosexual marriage may be legal, but that doesn't mean they're right. If we live in society, we have to abide by the laws of society, but we still have the right to believe what we want and live our lives according to our beliefs as long as we don't violate the laws of the society in which we live. I'm not surprised that homosexual marriage is legal now because the law is based on civil rights not the word of God. If people think secular civil law should be based on the law of God, they might want to consider the fact that sharia law is supposed to be based on somebody's idea of what God's law is. Then others might want to base the law on what Hebrew law says in the Hebrew scriptures which would put a lot of other folks besides homosexuals in jeopardy of actually be killed for committing certain sins. So, I guess maybe we should just try to survive in the society we're in, but we need to stay mindful that we need to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet because that's supposedly what all the law boils down to.

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)

[newlove]

Most though not all posts i have seen do see homosexuality as a sin though it is too unfairly picked
on as if worse than others. I am a little surprised because what i really apreciated here is a cocern for
original greek meanings. Once again i put here MatthewVine s link where in (the video ) he offers original insight  into greek text to argue that it was more a promiscuous sexual activity in the corinthian
verse and thus  reckons that there is scope forand no condemnation of loving relations even homosexual ones. If you are really interested in a fresh angle watch the video in link and comment after that.

http://www.matthewvines.com/the-bible-and-homosexuality-why-i-left-college-and-spent-two-years-finding-out-what-the-scriptures-re/

[jabcat]

newlove, I'm sure there are many who haven't as yet heard the "fresh angle", but to many that argument is known, ie., those "contested" words in the greek,.  As far as "the greek", there's a difference between understanding and rightly dividing the scriptures vs. "wresting the scriptures" as Peter speaks about in the reference I provided.

Also, re: specific words, please consider the words Paul used in the Romans verses I also posted.  Even IF MV was correct about a different interpretation of those specific words (which I don't believe he is [primarily and exclusively so]) there's still much other contextual scripture to reconcile.  It all has to fit together to form a whole.   In Romans, Paul didn't use those "contested" words.  He used plain speech.  Man with man, woman with woman, lusting for each other, being with each other.

Also, I personally think most posters actually go out of their way to include any sin, not just single out a specific one - although that's what this thread was specifically started as.  I'll add the seemingly required notation :)  we all sin and need a Savior, and love is vital. 

I don't know if Matthew Vines knows Jesus or not.  That's between Him and God.  But I do believe he's wrong about this topic and is twisting the scripture to try to justify the unjustifiable (except through deliverance through the cross of Christ).   

from Christianity Today - "Vines's new book, God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships, expounds further on the arguments made in his video. His aim is not to present new information, but to synthesize gay-affirming arguments and make them accessible for a broader and younger audience. Vines does a good job fulfilling this goal. Unfortunately, his book consists of some logical and exegetical fallacies, and it does not address the shortcomings of the authors to whom it is most indebted. And although Vines professes a "high view" of the Bible, he ultimately fails to apply uncomfortable biblical truths in a way that embraces a costly discipleship.

Vines notes the use of arsenokoitai in the vice lists of three second-century texts. Even though he admits the vice lists are of limited help, he tries to link arsenokoitai to economic exploitation through word association. Vines might have a case if every vice in each list is related to economic exploitation. But these lists contain a variety of vices, related and unrelated. For instance, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 mentions idolaters, adulterers, drunkards, and slanderers.

Vines also asserts that arsenokoitai is only minimally associated with sexual sin because it is not always mentioned alongside other sexual sins—and when it is, it is separated by three words. This is insignificant, and ignores other, more relevant historical information. The Greek Old Testament was probably the most widely read piece of literature among first-century Jews and Christians. The two words, arsen (male) and koite (bed), occur together six times in its pages. On four occasions, the reference is to women lying with men, and on the other two (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13) the reference is to men lying with men. Vines and others who rely upon second-century texts to explain arsenokoitai, dismissing the Greek Old Testament, are inconsistent in applying background information. Again, their biases prevail in their attempt to interpret Scripture.

For Vines, Leviticus 20:13 is not a universal condemnation against same-sex intercourse. Rather, it is "centered around the proper ordering of gender roles in a patriarchal society." Men were not to act like women by taking the receptive role. Ironically, Vines dismisses Philo (a first century Jewish philosopher) for explicitly linking Sodom's sins to same-sex behavior, but then affirms Philo for linking the sin of Leviticus 20:13 to "being treated like women." This is another example of bias and an inconsistent use of background information. If the sin of Leviticus 20:13 is merely a matter of men adopting the woman's sexual role, then only the man in the receptive role should be condemned. However the verse states that "both of them have committed an abomination." Both men are condemned."

[Psalm91:4]

:) Joe.   :thumbsup: psalm 91:4.  Your post led right into a post I'd been working on in the meantime, as the OP got me thinking about some things.  At first I said I didn't know if we'd launch into another long thread on this, and then here I go  :eek:   :laugh:.

Yes, psalm - rewards, position of service.  "Well-done good and faithful servant", or "saved as by fire".
------
"Accepted"

I don't believe it's incorrect to say that any sin is wrong.  The scriptures are clear on that IMO.

However, I could be open to correction from the Lord on some or all of the following details, as this is what I've come to believe over the years and after being in several different "camps" on some matters.

Some camps say "if you sin at all you're going to hell".  Others say "do anything you want, just love and be a good person and you're going to heaven".  Some say "if you sin at all Jesus isn't in you".  Others say "there is no sin, X,Y,Z isn't really sin, you're OK anyway".

I believe we all sin and are in need of the Savior.  Once knowing the Savior, I believe there's a difference between struggling with sin (not wanting it, admitting it, confessing it, seeking deliverance and to overcome) vs. excusing, accepting, ignoring, explaining away sin.  I believe true believers (those already saved by grace) to one degree or another can fall into the first group.  Here's where it gets controversial (to me), as I know many don't see it the same way or agree with it.  I believe a person can be given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and have very little change occur except something internally, i.e., their spirit saved.  They may not grow much.  They may even stay carnal, still living by the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit.  Can they be a Christian?  I believe 'yes'. So in that sense they're "accepted".   But can they also be living out of God's will?  Be rebellious, disobedient?  Yes.  Paul called a bunch of believers, who were allowing and participating in sin, "saints".  However, he also disciplined them, even shamed them;  casting one man out of fellowship, saying he'd be destroyed but his spirit saved.  He talked about being saved "as by fire".  I take that to mean many, even all works burned up/destroyed, nothing done that's worth keeping, except the grace of God that saved the spirit through belief in Jesus Christ.  So in another sense, not "accepted" (their/our sins excused, explained away, justified.)  I don't believe a person involved in any unrepentant ongoing sin is qualified for leadership or full "acceptance" in ministry, other than being in need of love, compassion, assistance, correction (in love and hope of restoration) of the body.  Finally, even though I don't believe it's our place to judge this, some may profess a belief on Jesus but never truly know Him.  It's just something said, not something experienced through being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  That's why we're called to judge and deal with obvious behavior within the body, not "see" inside someone's heart (only God does that).  Loving - always - but still being willing to call sin sin and encouraging ourselves and others to seek the Master Physician and Deliverer.

I'm sure some find this hard and unacceptable, while others may actually have sound reason to see some of it a bit differently.  But hopefully anyone who disagrees can stand on solid scriptural foundation to say otherwise and show where some things may need to be reconsidered in light of rightly divided scripture (like I said, I could be wrong about some of it) rather than just an emotional/"logical" response.

Nothing but agreement here from me on what you have shared, particularly the " qualified for leadership " part. Because I do think that is what Paul is specifically targeting here, pertaining to the reign of God.

Bottom line, as I see it, sons of God walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit of God, and crucify the flesh and it's lusts and desires as we grow by His grace,  His chastening  and humbling of us.  It seems an impossible thing to do in our own strength, and is !

This is one of the reasons why our good Father gives us His Spirit to abide with and in us, to mature us and grow us up in Christ.... and as our clay yields to the pressures of this Potter's work,  even our very thoughts are changed and made new!  Our minds are conformed to the way He thinks about things!   Which, since He created us...is the way He intended us to be viewing things. 

We are to present our very bodies to Him as a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service.  Ok Lord, here I am. Your will be done.  It's really that simple. He'll show you the way!  :)

[rosered]

 

Yes I see what you mean  James like those whom try to ''change the   times  and  laws ''   spoken of in Daniel   ..

  the Laws of God are pretty straightforward  and nothing is to be judged before the time  when the Lord comes to rebuke     such things  ,

Even Michael   did not  make  railings and fights and such things  against satan  , but had the Lord rebuke   him    over the body of Moses       being the laws   of God  given to mankind to keep him right with God  in that  space  of time .


  and those whom do not allow marriage  !    when Paul says it is better to marry than to burn   

  I believe he meant burning lusts  inside themselves   to go off and do unthinkable acts .


   and yet they  ,,     claim  chastity in the Church   before men
  and are doing those vile things in secret     that are a shame to  nature itself  .


petophiles   and homosexual acts  sodomy    with women and men    and the like     ,,   considered   acts   , deeds  sinning  against  their own bodies   !

   I dont like to think about this  stuff   , but it is what it is ... :sigh:

[jabcat]

..and sorry newlove if I come across as harsh...it all needs to be about help and restoration, and sometimes we get caught up in the details..we're all struggling with something...i struggle every day...we just need to surrender in His presence..love to you

[rosered]

:) Joe.   :thumbsup: psalm 91:4.  Your post led right into a post I'd been working on in the meantime, as the OP got me thinking about some things.  At first I said I didn't know if we'd launch into another long thread on this, and then here I go  :eek:   :laugh:.

Yes, psalm - rewards, position of service.  "Well-done good and faithful servant", or "saved as by fire".
------
"Accepted"

I don't believe it's incorrect to say that any sin is wrong.  The scriptures are clear on that IMO.

However, I could be open to correction from the Lord on some or all of the following details, as this is what I've come to believe over the years and after being in several different "camps" on some matters.

Some camps say "if you sin at all you're going to hell".  Others say "do anything you want, just love and be a good person and you're going to heaven".  Some say "if you sin at all Jesus isn't in you".  Others say "there is no sin, X,Y,Z isn't really sin, you're OK anyway".

I believe we all sin and are in need of the Savior.  Once knowing the Savior, I believe there's a difference between struggling with sin (not wanting it, admitting it, confessing it, seeking deliverance and to overcome) vs. excusing, accepting, ignoring, explaining away sin.  I believe true believers (those already saved by grace) to one degree or another can fall into the first group.  Here's where it gets controversial (to me), as I know many don't see it the same way or agree with it.  I believe a person can be given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, and have very little change occur except something internally, i.e., their spirit saved.  They may not grow much.  They may even stay carnal, still living by the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit.  Can they be a Christian?  I believe 'yes'. So in that sense they're "accepted".   But can they also be living out of God's will?  Be rebellious, disobedient?  Yes.  Paul called a bunch of believers, who were allowing and participating in sin, "saints".  However, he also disciplined them, even shamed them;  casting one man out of fellowship, saying he'd be destroyed but his spirit saved.  He talked about being saved "as by fire".  I take that to mean many, even all works burned up/destroyed, nothing done that's worth keeping, except the grace of God that saved the spirit through belief in Jesus Christ.  So in another sense, not "accepted" (their/our sins excused, explained away, justified.)  I don't believe a person involved in any unrepentant ongoing sin is qualified for leadership or full "acceptance" in ministry, other than being in need of love, compassion, assistance, correction (in love and hope of restoration) of the body.  Finally, even though I don't believe it's our place to judge this, some may profess a belief on Jesus but never truly know Him.  It's just something said, not something experienced through being drawn by the Holy Spirit and being given faith to believe on Jesus as Savior.  That's why we're called to judge and deal with obvious behavior within the body, not "see" inside someone's heart (only God does that).  Loving - always - but still being willing to call sin sin and encouraging ourselves and others to seek the Master Physician and Deliverer.

I'm sure some find this hard and unacceptable, while others may actually have sound reason to see some of it a bit differently.  But hopefully anyone who disagrees can stand on solid scriptural foundation to say otherwise and show where some things may need to be reconsidered in light of rightly divided scripture (like I said, I could be wrong about some of it) rather than just an emotional/"logical" response.

Nothing but agreement here from me on what you have shared, particularly the " qualified for leadership " part. Because I do think that is what Paul is specifically targeting here, pertaining to the reign of God.

Bottom line, as I see it, sons of God walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit of God, and crucify the flesh and it's lusts and desires as we grow by His grace,  His chastening  and humbling of us.  It seems an impossible thing to do in our own strength, and is !

This is one of the reasons why our good Father gives us His Spirit to abide with and in us, to mature us and grow us up in Christ.... and as our clay yields to the pressures of this Potter's work,  even our very thoughts are changed and made new!  Our minds are conformed to the way He thinks about things!   Which, since He created us...is the way He intended us to be viewing things. 

We are to present our very bodies to Him as a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service.  Ok Lord, here I am. Your will be done.  It's really that simple. He'll show you the way!  :)

  Amen!!! to the both of you  :iagree:    :HeartThrob: so true  , so very true

[newlove]

Jabcat : I do not have knowledge of greek to argue
against your points. Although i feel you know what you are talking about and would never march with a
" God hates fags " placard. Mark Vines appeared to mea sincere young man intersted in durability of relations. Standing by what you are saying what can you suggest he does ? Merely stop acting on his impulses and remain celibate. I fear you do and you dorealize this means great misery and alienation for him and many more. I never had to live with an interdiction against my (straight) sex.uality. Is that
it at the end of the day  : "tough" ! As It is indeed very tough.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the kind reply.  I'll answer point by point, fair questions :).

Some things I believe I know what I'm talking about, many other things not so sure.  A whole bunch of things I know I don't.

No, I wouldn't march with such a sign.  I believe it's shameful and reprehensible.  I'm not much of a "marcher" or protester anyways.  My such sins fall along the lines of not caring enough, not loving enough, not praying enough for those hurting. 

My answer regarding Mr. Vines, myself, and anyone regarding sin is, admit it, confess it, resist it, ask God for healing and deliverance.  As we're often likely to fail, ask for forgiveness when we do, accept that forgiveness, and continue looking to Jesus for help.  I believe he forgives us, carries us, and covers us when we're honest and broken before Him.  He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble" James 4:6.  I take that to mean, to us, when we come as "God have mercy upon me a sinner".  With everything and with all sin and weakness, we are to look to Him for filling and fulfillment.  Desiring nothing outside His will.  Sometimes I'm personally able to do that, probably most often, not.  But the statement to us is "looking to Jesus, the author and finisher [completer, perfecter] of our faith".  So let me answer TO me, instead of MV;  if I'm a glutton, should I accept it and pursue that?  or should I turn away from the cabinet or table when I've had enough, and look to Jesus for strength to resist and do without what I don't need?  I think the latter.  I fail often.  But I still think the latter.  If I think my neighbor has something I want, should i sit and look at it and lust after it?  Or stop looking at it, confess to God my coveteousness and unthankfulness, get my thoughts on Jesus, thank Him for what He's already given me, ask Him for strength and grace to be more thankful and less worldly-minded?  I think the latter.  I fail, but I still think the latter...etc..

Yes, you're right.  At the end of the day - it's tough.  A call to discipleship is often something I personally fight against, because carrying a cross ain't easy.  For me it's often more "natural" to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.  Mercifully for us, as psalm91 alluded to, Jesus carried the "big" cross, and His mercy and strength is available for us if we trust, rest in Him and walk in Him.  Blessings. :2c:

[Tom]

Coming from a heterosexual guy with plenty of experience who has been celibate by choice for over seven years, celibacy is not "great misery and alienation." You just concentrate on the higher vibration of spiritual love and deny the desire of soulish satisfaction.

"The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22,23)

PS: I even humbly rejected another marriage proposal today.

[jabcat]

Thanks Tom.  You said in a couple of sentences what I struggled to say in half a book.   :mblush:

[eaglesway]

What is the universalist's view on homosexuals, lesbians and transexuals as people? I understand they are all loved by  Jesus.  But they are condemned by the traditional church and Sodom and Gomorrah is preached to mean wickedness practised by homosexuals.

I watched a TV programme about a contraversal church,  the Westboro Baptist Church consisting mainly of one large extended family,  holds up God Hates Fags banners and say evangelist Billy Graham is going to hell.

Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most ungodly, cultic groups there are operating as Christians, but full of hate and great champions of eternal torment.

An absolute blight on the name of Jesus Christ.

[newlove]

Jabcat :  I must be  brief  but I do apreciate your replies honesty and modesty included . I note the process you state re facing sin and for myself shall renew efforts to fight by those steps..

Tom :  yes celibacy I m sure has fine points and value  may it bring you joy It depends where you re at
By alienation and misery I meant the lack of allowing a relationship in wholer sense not just sex Probably harder for a younger man which is not my case but is for  MV . He did nt seem to happy with the idea of denying
himself and I too would find it hard as a young man .

God bless . Goodnight .

[jabcat]

 :HeartThrob: