Does Jesus save us from correction, or just death?

[Farlsborough]

Please bear with me, I'm new to all this. I have tried to search for previous answers to this question but as you can imagine, lots of the same terminology comes up on most threads!

My understanding so far concerning U.R. is that:
-the wages of sin is death
-Jesus is the saviour of all, saving us from this - therefore we will all be resurrected and judged, some to kolasis, some to life in the age to come.
-To believe, to be a Christian etc. is of huge benefit, both because God will work His grace in your life, give you the HS to sanctify you, and enable you to "work out" your salvation immediately. There is also suggestion of responsibility and reward in the next age, and a role in preaching/healing those in the "lake of fire", outside the (open) gates.
-Those who are not believers will yet be divided into those who may enter the kingdom, and those for kolasis/apollumi... potentially on the basis of how they treat Christians? (I'm sketchy on this - sheep and goats etc).
-In the end, through self-crucifixion or destruction, all will be reconciled to God.


Please chip in with amendments/additions or corrections as you believe them to be. However, my question is this:

For the Christian, does Jesus' death spare us correction/fiery destruction/purification etc? In other words, for the weak, sinful person who nevertheless acknowledges their sin, do they still go to the lake of fire by virtue of their deeds - will King David be spending a long time there because of his fairly heinous sins? Or do people feel the lake of fire deals with people in the spiritual condition in which they are at that point, and that Christ's sacrifices atone for all past sins? (Like forgiving an alcoholic for the brawling he's done, but still needing to correct his current condition).

Likewise, what are people's views on those who do not acknowledge or accept Christ's sacrifice in this life, and yet lead a relatively virtuous life because they were brought up well? If I am correct in thinking that TM's collective opinion is that some "sheep" will avoid the lake of fire, have these people essentially achieved salvation through works? Have they achieved under their own steam what we seem to believe it takes repentance, grace and sanctification for the Christian to achieve?

I suppose I'm curious because what I can't disavow is the sense that when one becomes a Christian, *something* pretty big has happened. You have accepted something, something has changed, and that is going to have both worldly consequences and consequences in the age to come. But if all we are saying is that to become a Christian is to acknowledge the sifting and eventual reconciliation that is going to occur, it seems, well...

[Farlsborough]

I may have just answered my own question with a little thinking...! But surely Christ's sacrifice *must* do away with the need for humility through destruction, because otherwise (given that there are no perfect people), how could anyone be said to avoid the LoF?

[jabcat]

you're hitting on something i've been thinking about lately.  may have more to say later.  but the cross, jesus' death, His finished work on the cross, I BELIEVE means more for us than may be imagined - to those given faith to believe now, to "become children of God" - then to all at the restoration.  Still, all through the cross and grace. every knee will bow, every tongue confess - JESUS.  not "i came through this fire" or "i overcame this", or "i worked until i attained.."   i believe the faith He gives to bring us to Him also brings with it the grace to be sufficient, to sustain/maintain us, to compel us forward -  to work in us HIS works of righteousness - as we surrender - not our own.  thanks for your post.   

[gregoryfl]

Shalom,

My question would be, where is it taught in scripture that anyone avoids the lake of fire? I think most would look at two passages in Revelation to prove that:

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won't be hurt by the second death.  (Rev 2:11)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.  (Rev 20:6)

I believe that every teaching and doctrine has its foundation, its root, in the Tanakh, and that John was relating the reality of what occurred in type and shadow back in the book of Daniel, for it is only there where we find the same exact two expressions used that are found in Revelation. Here they are in Daniel:

He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.  (Dan 3:25)

The satraps, the deputies, and the governors, and the king's counselors, being gathered together, saw these men, that the fire had no power on their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed, neither were their pants changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them.  (Dan 3:27)

Here we have 3 overcomers, willing to die obeying God rather than man, and yet they did not avoid the fire, which incidentally, was heated 7 times (I believe another hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured).

It does not make normal sense to say someone is not hurt by something, nor that something has no power over them, unless they experienced it. In my opinion, all experience the lake of fire, and our experience of it depends on what burns, and what does not. The more that is burned up, the more we are hurt and overpowered by it.

Ronen

[jabcat]

yes, "not hurt by.."   covered by the blood of the Lamb

[anna274]

re: ... heated 7 times ... hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured.

I love the Psalms and devote a great deal of time and energy to studying them... always looking for comparable verses in the rest of the Bible...of course, I really appreciate any Bible that has cross references... such as Ps 12:6 --->Dan 3:19

Psalm 12:6
The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over.

Dan 3:19
Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury and his facial expression was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.  Therefore he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was usually heated.


and still wonder what the connection is... and certainly will lead to a deeper understanding of the fire.   Any ideas???

[gregoryfl]

re: ... heated 7 times ... hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured.

I love the Psalms and devote a great deal of time and energy to studying them... always looking for comparable verses in the rest of the Bible...of course, I really appreciate any Bible that has cross references... such as Ps 12:6 --->Dan 3:19

Psalm 12:6
The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over.

Dan 3:19
Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury and his facial expression was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.  Therefore he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was usually heated.


and still wonder what the connection is... and certainly will lead to a deeper understanding of the fire.   Any ideas???

The word 'seven' in Hebrew is based on the 2 letter marriage root (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png), which expresses the action of sitting. We get, from this root, the Hebrew words return, restore, sit, stillness, and seven, just to name a few. What these all have in common is they are a returning to a beginning. We started out still, before we had the breath of life breathed into us, animating us. When we sit, we return to that action of stillness, the opposite of standing and moving around. Shabbat is the marking of the end of the 6 day workweek cycle, serving as a returning point, before once again counting another 6 days of work. When we restore something, we are bringing it back to its original owner, returning it. And so, when scripture speaks of seven, it is speaking of that which is completed, a returning to an original state.

So when I read of a fire heated seven times, or of his words purified seven times over, I see it as a shuv, a returning to an original state, because the process is complete. That is not totally exclusive, for there are instances of something happening 10 times, which has its own separate Hebraic understanding, not discounting at all the completeness of something happening 7 times. Each number shares a facet of truth.

That Psalm you shared I think ties in wonderfully with Daniel, in describing on a deeper level what the fire is. I believe it is every bit connected to our Father.

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

yes, "not hurt by.."   covered by the blood of the Lamb

:thumbsup: Just as during that first Pesach when they covered all sides of the door with the blood of the lamb so as not to be harmed when he went through Mitsrayim.

[jabcat]

yes, "not hurt by.."   covered by the blood of the Lamb

:thumbsup: Just as during that first Pesach when they covered all sides of the door with the blood of the lamb so as not to be harmed when he went through Mitsrayim.

amen

[Cardinal]

The word 'seven' in Hebrew is based on the 2 letter marriage root (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png), which expresses the action of sitting. We get, from this root, the Hebrew words return, restore, sit, stillness, and seven, just to name a few. What these all have in common is they are a returning to a beginning. We started out still, before we had the breath of life breathed into us, animating us. When we sit, we return to that action of stillness, the opposite of standing and moving around. Shabbat is the marking of the end of the 6 day workweek cycle, serving as a returning point, before once again counting another 6 days of work. When we restore something, we are bringing it back to its original owner, returning it. And so, when scripture speaks of seven, it is speaking of that which is completed, a returning to an original state.

So when I read of a fire heated seven times, or of his words purified seven times over, I see it as a shuv, a returning to an original state, because the process is complete. That is not totally exclusive, for there are instances of something happening 10 times, which has its own separate Hebraic understanding, not discounting at all the completeness of something happening 7 times. Each number shares a facet of truth.

That Psalm you shared I think ties in wonderfully with Daniel, in describing on a deeper level what the fire is. I believe it is every bit connected to our Father.

Ronen

:cloud9:  :thumbsup:  Reminds me of Him sitting at the right hand of the Father, His returning to His original state. Blessings.....

[marie glen]

hello, it's my belief no one is going to the LOF. I have been a spiritual hermit and have lacked indoctrination into any set of beliefs.

Are death and the grave thrown to the LOF for purification??

My (VERY) strong conviction that no one goes to a LOF is based upon what I read in my Bible and by what the HS counsels and reveals. And really? it's the Word only which counts. Nevertheless I know this view is radical and hard for ppl to conceive of after the centuries of other teaching and belief.

It's SO easy for (some) Christians to imagine a 'gap' between Genesis one and two (a gap of 'million' er, now 'billions' of years which declares the Bible to be myth) yet very hard to perceive of "Judgment Day" lasting more than a day. (!!??? a day to examine and judge all things.. all human history.. do we realize how many 'ages', empires, towns, lives are to be reviewed and examined? ..oh the stories in that day.. (otherwise why all of this in the first place if it's not for teaching His creations good from evil?)

I get what you are saying about Christian terminology and pet phrases and beliefs. Plus any set of doctrines is hard to introduce anything new. I'm sure all of us here know about that..!

Notice (please) how the notorious statement "those not believing will go to the second death" (the same place death and the grave are thrown to! and two active institutions of man at Jesus' return, the world beast/body and the false prophet/teaching which turned Christendom on its ear) is the last verse of the chapter.

Now I need to show you something else. The 1st advent of Jesus fulfilled Israels' ancient Spring Holy Days of Passover, Unleavened/pure/sinless Bread and the Firstfruit (day of firstfruits where a single sheaf of wheat was "waved in the air".

So, if the Spring Holy Days prophesied His first advent, is it not reasonable to assume the ancient Fall Holy Days of - Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles - prophesy three main peaks of His long second advent??

Looking at those Holy Days, each fall there was/is Trumpets, then 10 days later DOA (day of atonement), and then 5 days later, Tabernacles. It's not hard at all to see "Trumpets" as prophesying His return and the 10 days representing the 1000 year millenium, and "Tabernacles" as prophesying when all is said and done, and the Father and His Throne come to the earth, and Revelation 21, verse 3 says He will now "Tabernacle" with man upon earth..

But what to do with that great peak in between - Day of Judgment - which begins with the "second resurrection" the one of all those who have not yet believed, nor perhaps even heard, thus they are "still in their sins"/imperfection, in essence still DOA-dead on arrival, so to speak..

My thought is (revealed by the HS as I am just not that clever) if the "10 days" coincides to the millenium, then the "5 days" coincides to the Day of Judgment/DOA-surprise! Day Of Atonement..

[color=orange]Do we realize what a day of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" this Holy Day was for ancient Israel????[/color]

[I can't believe how obvious it is and Christendom (what's left of it) cannot see it!!]

My point is, after experiencing being resurrected, and living through and witnessing what can only be an extremely long day of the examination and judging of all things, who?? is not going to "believe"??

Hence, I (veRy) strongly believe no person goes to the Lake Of Fire!! And I believe it is much more supported by the Bible than any other scenario.

I'd like to add just one more thing.. God Himself, surely? is Life itself, the spark, the life force itself.. who/what else would or could be?? "In the beginning God.."

And, He is also Perfection, surely?? (or else He too would fade? or would never have been!)

So you see when He endowed thinking ability, which includes the ability, sooner or later, to make choices.. w whole new world (er tree) of possibilities was born, for to choose any thing in thought, wordd or deed which disagrees with what He chooses, is to become im-perfect, the opposite of life. Hence He built the rescue in "from the beginning/foundation".

Because He endowed thinking ability, there is suffering.. but He, being Life, lives through, suffers and experiences all suffering which ever occur! why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His own family and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because ALL will fully realize good from evil, which is also LiFe from death/non-life. It will be deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche, that one simply cannot walk away from God. It simply cannot be done, but can only result in a self destructive puff of smoke, dust and ashes/apocalypse.

God bless you for your seeking!!

[anna274]

re: ... heated 7 times ... hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured.

I love the Psalms and devote a great deal of time and energy to studying them... always looking for comparable verses in the rest of the Bible...of course, I really appreciate any Bible that has cross references... such as Ps 12:6 --->Dan 3:19

Psalm 12:6
The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over.

Dan 3:19
Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury and his facial expression was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.  Therefore he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was usually heated.


and still wonder what the connection is... and certainly will lead to a deeper understanding of the fire.   Any ideas???

The word 'seven' in Hebrew is based on the 2 letter marriage root (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png), which expresses the action of sitting. We get, from this root, the Hebrew words return, restore, sit, stillness, and seven, just to name a few. What these all have in common is they are a returning to a beginning. We started out still, before we had the breath of life breathed into us, animating us. When we sit, we return to that action of stillness, the opposite of standing and moving around. Shabbat is the marking of the end of the 6 day workweek cycle, serving as a returning point, before once again counting another 6 days of work. When we restore something, we are bringing it back to its original owner, returning it. And so, when scripture speaks of seven, it is speaking of that which is completed, a returning to an original state.

So when I read of a fire heated seven times, or of his words purified seven times over, I see it as a shuv, a returning to an original state, because the process is complete. That is not totally exclusive, for there are instances of something happening 10 times, which has its own separate Hebraic understanding, not discounting at all the completeness of something happening 7 times. Each number shares a facet of truth.

That Psalm you shared I think ties in wonderfully with Daniel, in describing on a deeper level what the fire is. I believe it is every bit connected to our Father.

Ronen

Ronen, I'm so sorry for my delay in replying/thanking you for yet another quick and very helpful (esp. re: seven) post;  I became so involved in a study of "furnace" and the three men's names AND "bones" ... I'm thinking/praying about starting another thread on Bones: one flesh/one spirit as I don't want to go off topic... I sincerely appreciate your very helpful posts.

[gregoryfl]

Shalom Marie,

I love how you incorporate the Moedim (Appointed Times) into this discussion. We differ on some of the details, but I appreciate how you are working things out. Would you mind explaining a bit more of how you see it; that no one ends up in the lake of fire. I have never heard that understanding before. I take it that by your bolded statement in the beginning, you cannot see the lake of fire as something that purifies because death and hades are thrown into it, or are you saying it cannot serve that function for those two things?

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

I'm thinking/praying about starting another thread on Bones: one flesh/one spirit as I don't want to go off topic... I sincerely appreciate your very helpful posts.

Shalom Anna,

Looking forward to what He speaks through you concerning that. :)

[gregoryfl]

Shalom Farlsborough

With regard to your specific question, I personally see Yeshua saving us, redeeming us, etc, from the death in Isa 25:7,8, described in Hebrew poetic parallelism:

And He shall swallow up on this mountain the surface of the covering which covers all people, and the veil which is spread over all nations.  (Isa 25:7)

He shall swallow up death forever, and the Master יהוה shall wipe away tears from all faces, and take away the reproach of His people from all the earth. For יהוה has spoken.  (Isa 25:8)

This is not physical death, but the death I believe Adam and Chawa experienced the very day they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the same death Yeshua experienced, as an innocent man, for all humanity during the darkness while on the tree, when he cried out 'My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?', to which, sin being thus condemned in his flesh, he could state emphatically, BEFORE his physical death...IT IS FINISHED!

Ronen

[Seth]

For the Christian, does Jesus' death spare us correction/fiery destruction/purification etc? In other words, for the weak, sinful person who nevertheless acknowledges their sin, do they still go to the lake of fire by virtue of their deeds

Hi Farlsborough

Simple answer first: for the weak, sinful person who never acknowledges their sin, they are already in the fire.

There are things to understand before my answer makes sense. Jesus died to save us from something, and here is what that something is:

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

I believe from what scripture says, that to be saved from sin, is to be saved from the fire. In other words, I believe the "fire" in Christ's parables and the Lake of Fire represents our sin from which we need to be saved.

James 3
5Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell (Gehenna).

The word "Gehenna" erroneously translated as "hell" in the Bible, I believe represents "the course of one's life on fire" when they are not acknowledging their sin and taking pleasure in it. I believe it is compared to fire, because sin is destructive, and actually has humbling power in its destructiveness.

This is what we need salvation from, the need to be humbled by having to be worn down by our sin. For those who do not acknowledge their sin (an example of pride at work), they will remain in their destructive spiritual fire until they reach out for a savior from their sin, which God will bring about according to his sovereignty, so that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear an oath, surely they shall say in the Lord I have righteousness and strength." (Isaiah 45:22-24)

[Farlsborough]

Thank you Seth. I have read a lot of your website and it's very helpful; I certainly appreciate the direct and what one might call "doctrinal" approach, because I have to admit I find some of the answers on here a little like the Buddhist boy in The Matrix... "I've realised... There is no spoon!"

Can you clarify a couple of things? If Christ saves us from our sin, am I right in thinking that you see this in terms of a progressive salvation ("working it out"), which one can lose hold of? I.e. those few who enter by the narrow gate are those who persist/run the race to the end etc?

In that case, what benefit in terms of sin/release from sin do you see for the Christian, if any? And how do you see physical death and resurrection? Because surely this is the wage of sin, and resurrection a gift bought by Christ's sacrifice?

And how do you interpret verses like 2 Thess. 1:9 (and others), that seem to indicate some clear division, with some people going straight into the kingdom/God's presence?

[Seth]

Can you clarify a couple of things? If Christ saves us from our sin, am I right in thinking that you see this in terms of a progressive salvation ("working it out"), which one can lose hold of? I.e. those few who enter by the narrow gate are those who persist/run the race to the end etc?

Yes, the word salvation comes from the Greek "sozo" meaning to be healed or made whole. Sinfulness is like a sickness in the soul that one may again infect themselves again. Remember when Jesus cast the devils out of the person and said that the reason they return is because they find a clean well swept place? We must keep an inhospitable house for sin. I've failed to do that myself sometimes, and end up going down a road I don't want to walk, so I run back to the Lord and ask him to keep me well.

If my hand is healed from a burn, and I go out and foolishly place it in a boiling pot of water, well then I need healing for my hand again.

Peter talks about this in 2 Peter 2, saying it would have been better for people to have never known the way of righteousness than to know it and turn their back on it. Why? Not because they are "going to hell" (Peter never says that). But because they end up worse than they were before.

In that case, what benefit in terms of sin/release from sin do you see for the Christian, if any? And how do you see physical death and resurrection? Because surely this is the wage of sin, and resurrection a gift bought by Christ's sacrifice?

The benefit is HUGE. The Bible says that to be carnally minded is death, so in any discussion about salvation from death, we can't ignore carnal mindedness from the equation. Being delivered from the carnal mind is being saved from death.

And how do you interpret verses like 2 Thess. 1:9 (and others), that seem to indicate some clear division, with some people going straight into the kingdom/God's presence?

First, I want to say that the kingdom of God is at hand. It's not just something we wait for, but something that is being formed even today.

But, yes I do believe that there both is and will be a separation. That separation is what causes humility. In the Bible, God's method of judgment is to turn people over to slavery/captivity. Israel was turned over to Babylon for 70 years to cause them repentance.

If we check Romans 1, sin is no different. God uses sinfulness as a method of judgment. If people want sin, especially those who say "Lord, Lord," God will say "away from me ye who work iniquity" and will allow them to be turned over to their desires "to receive in themselves the due penalty for their error."

[marie glen]

Shalom Marie,

I love how you incorporate the Moedim (Appointed Times) into this discussion. We differ on some of the details, but I appreciate how you are working things out. Would you mind explaining a bit more of how you see it; that no one ends up in the lake of fire. I have never heard that understanding before. I take it that by your bolded statement in the beginning, you cannot see the lake of fire as something that purifies because death and hades are thrown into it, or are you saying it cannot serve that function for those two things?

Ronen

hi! I've actually had second thoughts ina small degree (yes, purifying) and was going to start a new topic (and still might) titled: the unable to be forgiven sin and the LOF

I think if one continuously hardens their heart against God their heart can become impenetrable and this is what I think of a the unable to be forgiven sin, called "blasphemy against the HS"

..and in this case I'm thinking Yes! the LOF must purify, because (God can only be perfect, and) perfect loses nothing..

The two of rev 19 who are thrown "alive" into the LOF are an institution of man and a strong delusion/teaching and latter age belief of man as to life's origins..

The nobody into the LOF belief is due to believing the Day of Judgement when all those who have never believed or heard, surely must be a very very long day - if the ancient fall holy days prophecy the 2nd advent like the spring ones did the 1st, I believe it will last 500 years - Day of Judgment, that is.

And I think of Day of Judgment when the 2nd resurrection arrives DOA (i.e. "still in their sins") as the middle peak of the long 2nd advent and represented by Day of Atonement (DOA) when Israel spent the day wailing (and gnashing their teeth?) over their sins..

I believe logically (and because of placement of the verse) that it's ONLY at the conclusion of that long day of the examination and judging of all things (a great 'day' of review) that is said (paraphrased) - those not "believing" will go to the 2nd death, the LOF - Where now I believe any who still "hate" God so much they still cannot "bend the knee" will go for purification..

I'm now thinking the grave and death having no ultimate "truth" to them will be consumed.. imo


-- My thought is, that God is all powerful (an attribute of Perfection) and no one can usurp His Will, so why would He need more strident measures for all those in the 2nd resurrection, than He did for those, who through no will, choice or act of their own (but His!) were "chosen" to be part of that 1st resurrection/faith b4 death? I believe the difference is simply for "drama" sake as this life is His proof drama proving good from evil/life from death,nonlife; the unavoidable foundation lesson, unavoidable if there's to be thinking ability, that is, as with thinking ability, sooner or later (surely?) comes the ability to make choices..

God bless!  :smile:

[Farlsborough]

Thanks Seth.

This is what we need salvation from, the need to be humbled by having to be worn down by our sin. For those who do not acknowledge their sin (an example of pride at work), they will remain in their destructive spiritual fire until they reach out for a savior from their sin, which God will bring about according to his sovereignty, so that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear an oath, surely they shall say in the Lord I have righteousness and strength." (Isaiah 45:22-24)

So in essence you see the division that seems to occur after judgement as being a vast cosmic version of what Paul talks about in terms of handing a church member over to Satan for his ultimate reconciliation?

Sorry to go over this again and again! I'm still trying to get to grips with this - I'm sure you guys are sick of seeing newbies like me going through this process all the time!

The difficulty I'm having - and probably because of the tradition in which I've grown up - is that, whilst I fully accept what you mean about the Kingdom of God being near, and accessible now, there does seem to be a separation at the time of judgement (you've acknowledged this). Now, my view (flexible...!) would have been that *nothing* imperfect can "enter the gates", but we can enter because we have had our robes dipped in the blood of the lamb.

So - do we still have to "pay off" our past sins before entering?! Or are those forgiven thanks to Jesus? And what about unbelievers? Isn't it weird to think that everyone is going to have to "do their time", or put the finishing touches to their healing (which happens by "kolasis" in your opinion) irrespective of whether they believe or not, when Christ is our sacrificial lamb?

I suppose I'm almost being selfish about this, but also I find it unnerving (which is fine, and necessary sometimes) - but the moments when I've experienced the most beautiful presence of God and felt like I've glimpsed His love is when it's dawned on me how sinful I am and how much He has forgiven me. But it feels like URers are essentially telling me: great, you're (possibly) elect and fitted for service in aeonian life... but you're still going to have to receive the justice/destruction/consequences due to you because of your sinful actions along with everyone else. Suddenly God seems less forgiving, not more (to me, anyway), and (selfishly) the fact that all people will end up reconciled to God doesn't remove my apprehension at re-shouldering the aeonian consequences of my actions.

I suppose one source of confusion is the distinction between wrong things you have done in the past, which surely require justice, and also the condition of your soul at the time of judgement - are you "fit for heaven", or are you quick tempered, greedy and so on. If I understand correctly, your view is that the latter - the fruits of the carnal mind - are what need to be removed (by "fire") in the next age, and that as Christians we can partake of that purification today. But no Christian is going to be able to be fully cleansed from these things in this age - does that mean all will be salted with fire in the next age as well? Do we just endure less of it because of the groundwork put in now?

And what of past sins - what about the "justification" type stuff? For instance, Hitler (the classic example) has all of that blood on his hands. Will there be any actual punishment for him for that? ("Vengeance is mine, I will repay") Or is his judgement the full crushing weight of the realisation of what he has done when he sees the Lord face to face?

I can't conceive of how this happens in any sort of time frame. You would think that as soon as someone saw God face-to-face, they would say "oh crap! I was wrong! I'll instantly change!". I suppose your answer might be that the greed, or lust, or fast tempter they have allowed to take hold will still need to be steadily dealt with, and this is the "lake of fire". And that they will also need to learn about Scripture, and that guiding them in these tasks will be the elect, carrying out the healing leaves... something like this?

Because the various bits of symbolism allow so many concepts to be packed in, it is so hard to get your head round!

[Seth]

The difficulty I'm having - and probably because of the tradition in which I've grown up - is that, whilst I fully accept what you mean about the Kingdom of God being near, and accessible now, there does seem to be a separation at the time of judgement (you've acknowledged this). Now, my view (flexible...!) would have been that *nothing* imperfect can "enter the gates", but we can enter because we have had our robes dipped in the blood of the lamb.

I've actually committed more detail to a 2 part paper I wrote about it if that helps: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html

When it comes to the kingdom, it says in Revelation that nothing imperfect may enter. But also, remember in the parables, for example, that the kingdom is compared to a fisherman who pulls in both good fish and bad fish, and examines them and throws away the bad fish. Also, the kingdom is compared to wheat and tares that grow together until such a time that the tares are gathered from the wheat and thrown into the "fire."

I believe in Revelation, we are seeing the kingdom of perfected saints which shall judge the world, and receive the rest of creation into their glorious liberty. Until the final putting away of the flesh and resurrection into new bodies, we will never be perfect.

Consider the parable of the Vine and branches as a good example:

John 15
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

You see that believers still need "pruning" to bear more fruit. That's because they aren't perfect. But they only receive that correction if they remain in him. If they don't remain in him, their destiny is the "fire," again the natural result of sinfulness. It results in humility, but what a rough and joyless road. The saints are to have joy in their tribulations, but a person who is like a "branch" that "withers" for lack of "water" and is "burned" is joyless and troubled. I'd rather be humbled now, than need to be humbled later.

So - do we still have to "pay off" our past sins before entering?! Or are those forgiven thanks to Jesus? And what about unbelievers? Isn't it weird to think that everyone is going to have to "do their time", or put the finishing touches to their healing (which happens by "kolasis" in your opinion) irrespective of whether they believe or not, when Christ is our sacrificial lamb?

I don't see it as a "paying off." I see it exactly as with the Prodigal Son. Those who receive the inheritance of the Kingdom may very well waste it in this life. This is what I believe the "fire" represents. The destruction of the Prodigal Son until he desired a savior and remembered his father. I believe judgment is for humbling, not for payback.

I suppose I'm almost being selfish about this, but also I find it unnerving (which is fine, and necessary sometimes) - but the moments when I've experienced the most beautiful presence of God and felt like I've glimpsed His love is when it's dawned on me how sinful I am and how much He has forgiven me. But it feels like URers are essentially telling me: great, you're (possibly) elect and fitted for service in aeonian life... but you're still going to have to receive the justice/destruction/consequences due to you because of your sinful actions along with everyone else.

Every action has consequences though, right? We are not saved from the natural consequences of sin just because we believe in Christ. If we do drugs, or watch pornography, etc those things have direct consequences in our spiritual lives, don't they? Even if we believe in Jesus, if we go out sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, will we not receive exactly what we sow? The purpose of Jesus' death, along with other things, is a signifier of the death of sinful flesh, in a spiritual way in our minds, unto freedom from sin. That is why Jesus tells us to take up our cross and follow him to our own death. He gives us the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to follow him, through belief, to do that, so that we receive much better fruit by walking according to the Spirit.

If I understand correctly, your view is that the latter - the fruits of the carnal mind - are what need to be removed (by "fire") in the next age, and that as Christians we can partake of that purification today. But no Christian is going to be able to be fully cleansed from these things in this age - does that mean all will be salted with fire in the next age as well? Do we just endure less of it because of the groundwork put in now?

The best way to get rid of a condemned house is to let it burn to the ground. What I believe, concerning the Biblical application of "fire," is that it represents the natural destructive consequences of sin. Jesus wants to save us from that, by giving believers the Holy Spirit and telling us to walk according to the Spirit. That way, we can learn and grow without the need for destruction.

For the stubborn and unrepentant, they will have to face the inevitable destruction of their houses through the spiritual fire that is sin. I hope that clarifies a bit.

I do not believe God is waiting to smack us with a stick for past sins. I believe God's method of judgment is revealed in the parable of the Prodigal Son, where we don't see an emotionally angry God, but we do see the father allowing destruction to come upon his son for the purpose of humbling him. He didn't send his men out to find him, or go out himself. He simply waited until the son found out that his sin was his own betrayer. And then he received him when he ran back to his father's house.

That I believe is the wrath of God.

[marie glen]

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If I remember right, even "wrath" of God in the original word language is more a yearning toward.. wanting to gather, than it is anger (not to say actions like hitler, etc, don't 'anger' and strongly affront Him, I figure whatever we feel about such acts He feels a million fold)

Amen! "resurrection" - I am a new creation in Christ now, but I will "put on incorruption" and also "immortality"

Corinthians 15:21-24 (NKJV)

"21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power."
...when God the Father will say "behold I make all things new"

I think if we truly "rest in Him" and in the finished work of Jesus, we have nothing to 'worry' about..

How far can a believer fall? the more worldly.. the more they will suffer the results (called curses) which befall the world of mankind and his empires.. (especially ones alive at Jesus' return)

but will they lose their place in the 1st resurrection? and instead rise in the 2nd, still in their sins? that's a question I have..

If a believer lives a sinful lifestyle, does he/she truly believe? won't they draw near to God and experience liberation and transformation out of the sinful lifestyle? As James wrote, "by works showing faith"?

The "Seal of God" which is "upon our heart" "is the proof we are His". This is the Spirit in our heart "which cries, abba! Father!" -  this is the "stamp of His ownership"! And "what He has begun, He is faithful to bring to completion"..

The "separation at the time of judgment" I believe is not a reference to a 'Judgment Day' for believers but I believe is a reference to the world at His return.. for one's allotment to be with the unbelievers, to me, would be to be caught "unawares" and suffer more with the world as it is crashing.. the same "learning through humbling" occurring on a large scale.. the same collectively as individually..

I think perhaps some of the error is due to tradition seeing death as another form of life, and seeing a 'hereafter' (and death) as a sort of floaty place and sees us as 'going to heaven' rather than heaven coming to us & the earth.
    :smile:

[WhiteWings]

yes, "not hurt by.."   covered by the blood of the Lamb

Everyone is covered by His blood, but still it's clear many will be cast in LoF.

Jesus saves from death, not correction.
The only way to avoid the second death is by being corrected before God decides who will be cast into LoF.

[micah7:9]

yes, "not hurt by.."   covered by the blood of the Lamb

Everyone is covered by His blood, but still it's clear many will be cast in LoF.

Jesus saves from death, not correction.
The only way to avoid the second death is by being corrected before God decides who will be cast into LoF.

:iagree: but the Book does say, CLV(i) 11 '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

[Seth]

If I remember right, even "wrath" of God in the original word language is more a yearning toward.. wanting to gather, than it is anger (not to say actions like hitler, etc, don't 'anger' and strongly affront Him, I figure whatever we feel about such acts He feels a million fold)

Yeah, wrath is not separate from caring. My daughter (5 years old) is sometimes convinced that I don't love her when I correct her. It's the way she perceives it. She doesn't yet realize that I only come across as wrathful because I care about her wellbeing. I think understanding God's wrath requires a certain amount of growth in us. Someday, she will look back and discover that I was not nearly as wrathful as she had thought.

How far can a believer fall? the more worldly.. the more they will suffer the results (called curses) which befall the world of mankind and his empires.. (especially ones alive at Jesus' return)

but will they lose their place in the 1st resurrection? and instead rise in the 2nd, still in their sins? that's a question I have..

Personally I think a believer can fall all the way. Even Peter said that it would have been better for some people never to have known the way of righteousness than to know and fall away, because they turn out worse than they were before.

If a believer lives a sinful lifestyle, does he/she truly believe? won't they draw near to God and experience liberation and transformation out of the sinful lifestyle? As James wrote, "by works showing faith"?

Yes, exactly, faith without works is dead. Faith is something that needs to be finished. If left unfinished, it then becomes useless.

James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Can faith alone save him? Nope. Salvation from sin requires more than faith. It requires walking according to the Spirit. A believer who believes but does not obey is already in death.

I think perhaps some of the error is due to tradition seeing death as another form of life, and seeing a 'hereafter' (and death) as a sort of floaty place and sees us as 'going to heaven' rather than heaven coming to us & the earth.
    :smile:

Yes, I also think that too much theology about death focuses too much on passing away in the body, rather than "to be carnally minded is death."