Does Jesus save us from correction, or just death?

[WhiteWings]

On the other hand, I believe each one, when God wills and gives the faith to believe/receive the free gift, will have their "personal moment", and their life in Christ begins from there.  To grow in grace and knowledge, learn to walk in the Spirit, etc...

I think what you call "personal movement", "walk" and "grow" is the purifying process that makes you avoid LoF.

The only bit I don't agree with in your post is "To grow in grace and knowledge".
I certainly believe/know someone can grow in knowledge. But not so in grace because grace is given by God. God is not a student that learns; He always operates at the same peak level. His amount of grace never varies.

:2c:

[Farlsborough]

I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.

Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?

Rather than open that can of worms here you can just read back through the "Soul Sleep" thread, which is still active :o)

Ha, OK, will do! Perhaps a different tack then:
Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?

[Seth]

On the other hand, I believe each one, when God wills and gives the faith to believe/receive the free gift, will have their "personal moment", and their life in Christ begins from there.  To grow in grace and knowledge, learn to walk in the Spirit, etc...

I think what you call "personal movement", "walk" and "grow" is the purifying process that makes you avoid LoF.

The only bit I don't agree with in your post is "To grow in grace and knowledge".
I certainly believe/know someone can grow in knowledge. But not so in grace because grace is given by God. God is not a student that learns; He always operates at the same peak level. His amount of grace never varies.

:2c:

I know that you and I seem to always be disagreeing, brother, but I do have to disagree with that.

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I think what Peter means is that we have been given grace, but WE need to grow within that grace. So when Paul says that "the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, chastening us to abandon ungodliness," I think that is what Peter means. It's not grace that needs to grow, but WE who need to grow within grace.

[jabcat]

yes, that's the reference...I sometimes quote that passage, but I guess it does lend itself to some delving into/explanation...thanks   :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.

Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?

Rather than open that can of worms here you can just read back through the "Soul Sleep" thread, which is still active :o)

Ha, OK, will do! Perhaps a different tack then:
Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?

Jesus said, " The kingdom of heaven is at hand". Its certainly not about luck :o) Its about calling and election. Those who are living in the kingdom are in heaven, "Seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus ", already. If anyone "goes straight to heaven" it is because thy were already living in it. Awake O sleeper, Arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine upon you.

[Farlsborough]

Hmm, OK. But I can't help but feel that doesn't answer the question!

Even the most love-filled, holy, heavenly people I know will have some speck of bitterness or such within them. Either this would prevent them from entering the gates, or it needs to somehow be removed before they do enter.

I've been reading some people's posts that very much take the line that we have died and been resurrected with Christ, spiritually reborn and are awaiting bodily resurrection. I agree with this, buuuut, clearly all Christians still sin! So the idea that we are all but fit for heaven apart from our physical bodies doesn't seem to correspond to reality.

Unless... I suppose one could say that our flesh is still mortal and flawed, and this is what drags us down (it usually is, isn't it?! Lust, greed...) so even though obeying our flesh leads us to sin, this will not be a problem after the resurrection. Therefore our bodily resurrection is the final stage of our perfection.

Seth, I'm interested in your view on this; how do you see it as possible for some to essentially go straight to heaven (or, "enter the gates") after resurrection and judgement?

[WhiteWings]

Unless... I suppose one could say that our flesh is still mortal and flawed, and this is what drags us down (it usually is, isn't it?! Lust, greed...)

Jesus had a real flesh body but wasn't dragged down.

[WhiteWings]

I know that you and I seem to always be disagreeing, brother, but I do have to disagree with that.

I'm aware of that  :winkgrin:
All I'm going to say about it, is that it would help greatly if you would really read posts with the aim of understanding them, instead of looking for attack vectors. I causes you to overlook the larger framework. You seem to see many trees but no forrest.   :handshake:

[Farlsborough]

Unless... I suppose one could say that our flesh is still mortal and flawed, and this is what drags us down (it usually is, isn't it?! Lust, greed...)

Jesus had a real flesh body but wasn't dragged down.

But Jesus was perfect; he didn't sin, he didn't deserve the "wage" of death. We all definitely do.

WW, what is your take on it? Are all those who can enter the gates immediately after resurrection and judgement those who are perfected in this life (is this even possible?)

What I'm trying to get at is that if some go to humbling destruction and some go into the city, God has a cut-off. Are you declared pure only by virtue of Christ's sacrifice (in which case how do you claim this for yourself?)

[WhiteWings]

Jesus most certainly is/was perfect. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.
My point was, and still is, that He lived a perfect life with a body just like yours and mine.
So can we really (only) blame our/the body?

WW, what is your take on it? Are all those who can enter the gates immediately after resurrection and judgement those who are perfected in this life (is this even possible?)

What I'm trying to get at is that if some go to humbling destruction and some go into the city, God has a cut-off. Are you declared pure only by virtue of Christ's sacrifice (in which case how do you claim this for yourself?)

I'm still trying to figure it out.

So if you don't mind I give you a list of some points I'm using to figure out my final answer.

I'm not so sure the overcomers enter the city immediately because the city descents a little later. But that's your main point so until you registered I would have answered yes.
But you made a very good point by stating nobody is purified 100% so not ready for the city.
Maybe the answer can be found in this verse:

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'

The verse says "not hurt" but it doesn't say they won't be touched by the second death at all. ??? :dontknow:
To be clear I don't see the second death as real death, but as all the bad habits dying. Washed away; because imo LoF is the Temple laver.




Hurt
ἀδικέω
adikeō
Thayer Definition:
1) absolutely
1a) to act unjustly or wickedly, to sin
1b) to be a criminal, to have violated the laws in some way
1c) to do wrong
1d) to do hurt
2) transitively
2a) to do some wrong or sin in some respect
2b) to wrong some one, act wickedly towards him
2c) to hurt, damage, harm
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G94
Citing in TDNT: 1:157, 22

[Seth]

I know that you and I seem to always be disagreeing, brother, but I do have to disagree with that.

I'm aware of that  :winkgrin:
All I'm going to say about it, is that it would help greatly if you would really read posts with the aim of understanding them, instead of looking for attack vectors. I causes you to overlook the larger framework. You seem to see many trees but no forrest.   :handshake:

Attack vectors? That's not what I do. Was I wrong to disagree back there?
I tend to always try to find areas of agreement where they are in my conversations with people.

If you recall, most of our interactions have been when you have challenged me, like with the Law etc. You've never told me when you agree with me that I can recall.

[gregoryfl]

Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?

Shalom Farlsborough,

I take you you are equating absolute purity or perfection with not sinning, would that be correct?

Perhaps this illustration will shed some light on your question. If I saw a lamb which had no blemish run around and wallow in a mud pit, would it be no longer without blemish?

Ronen

[marie glen]

how do you see it as possible for some to essentially go straight to heaven (or, "enter the gates") after resurrection and judgement?

hi! I'm not sure I get the question.. when Jesus returns "we meet the Lord in the air" all dead and living believers/followers, then it's my thinking that Zechariah 14:4 says His feet then touch down upon the Mt of Olives.. "just as He was seen leaving, the Mt of Olives (Acts 1:19) so shall He be seen returning..

Zechariah 14:4 - New International Version (NIV)

4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Then, I believe, the thousand year "millenium" of our Lord begins.. while satan&co are restricted, or in the abyss/bottomless pit..

I think believers will need the respite before what I think can only be, then, an extremely long and difficult day of the thorough examination of all human history.. every dastardly, inhumane horror, all error.. a great day of review for both 1st and 2nd resurrection.. a day of wailing and weeping as the ancient Day of Atonement/collective repentance was for ancient Israel..

It's only after all this that the New Jerusalem with its gates comes to the planet, along with God's very throne and the Father Almighty Himself who will then Tabernacle with mankind upon earth.. "the lion will eat straw like the ox; the bear will be seen grazing with the cow" Is 11:7

I am not sure what is meant by the "judgment seat of Christ" if it is different from the Day of Judgment following the 2nd resurrection.. unless it is the judgment of nations at His return when He judges between mighty nations and they beat their weapons into plows and gardening tools..

It is at the first resurrection that all believers/followers will "put on immortality and incorruption"

Then I believe the 2nd resurrection puts on immortality and incorruption when the Father "makes all things new" (Rev 21:3)

{the ancient fall holy days as prophesy of the three major peaks of the long 2nd advent --
Trumpets - (10days later) -Day of Atonement - (5days later) - Tabernacles & the gates
                   1000yrs                                         500yrs?

[..I think the gnostics made the mistake of thinking all flesh/matter as what was fallen into, and arose sects both ascetic and licentious, as if all matter, flesh; eating, sleeping, was evil, then, what the hey-which was what the "Nicolaitans" were into "which thing Jesus hates".. They forgot how after each night and day of creation God said "it's all good!" what was fallen into was choices made other than what God chooses, i.e. imperfection, corruption, death]

The being made perfect being a supernatural and miraculous act of God... all having been thoroughly convinced of the futility of walking away from God/Life/Perfection.. (can only end as collapse/apocalypse)

[marie glen]

...to me, it's a matter of true belief! If someone extends an emerald, as a gift to me, if I truly believe it's an emerald and is a gift, I will take it, if I don't really believe, I will soon  forget about it..

And also, true "belief" will, and cannot avoid, bearing fruit/works.. If Mary Magdalene had not truly believed, she would not have received deliverance from seven demons..

If Paul had not truly "believed" when he "saw Jesus" he would have continued his persecution and murder of saints/believers.

"Judge nothing before its time" I personally think there are lots of folks through the centuries, who have "believed" lived a basically good life of raising children, tilling the soil.. they may not have been great evangelists, but yet we have no idea how their life and days touched others or whatnot.. I know folks like that today too.. sometimes they surprise me..

[Seth]

"Judge nothing before its time" I personally think there are lots of folks through the centuries, who have "believed" lived a basically good life of raising children, tilling the soil.. they may not have been great evangelists, but yet we have no idea how their life and days touched others or whatnot..

Me too. I don't think being a great evangelist is what the factor is. In fact, when Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" he says that to people who probably would identify themselves as evangelists, having performed great miracles.

1 Thess 4:11
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you

Nothing against evangelists, as I would consider Gary to be an evangelist of sorts, but I don't think needs to be everyone's call.

[eaglesway]

...to me, it's a matter of true belief! If someone extends an emerald, as a gift to me, if I truly believe it's an emerald and is a gift, I will take it, if I don't really believe, I will soon  forget about it..

And also, true "belief" will, and cannot avoid, bearing fruit/works.. If Mary Magdalene had not truly believed, she would not have received deliverance from seven demons..

If Paul had not truly "believed" when he "saw Jesus" he would have continued his persecution and murder of saints/believers.

"Judge nothing before its time" I personally think there are lots of folks through the centuries, who have "believed" lived a basically good life of raising children, tilling the soil.. they may not have been great evangelists, but yet we have no idea how their life and days touched others or whatnot.. I know folks like that today too.. sometimes they surprise me..

I agree. The gift to be an evangelist(not like a contemporary preacher, but someone who just has a special facility for lifting up Jesus and ministering the good news) is one of many, many gifts God gives. I am personally certain more people have seen Jesus through the means Marie mentioned than hav been won by evenagelists.

[Farlsborough]

Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?

Shalom Farlsborough,

I take you you are equating absolute purity or perfection with not sinning, would that be correct?

Perhaps this illustration will shed some light on your question. If I saw a lamb which had no blemish run around and wallow in a mud pit, would it be no longer without blemish?

Hi Ronen, and thanks for your reply. I see what you're getting at... I think! We can be blemish-free through Christ but sullied by sin? Yet ultimately at the end of all things we are justified... Perhaps?

It is less the sinful acts so much as the weakness and flaws. Well, I suppose these lead to sinful acts. But what I mean is, Paul had a "thorn", he did not do the things he wanted to do and those things he wished not to do - he did! This is a hugely encouraging verse for me as it speaks of hope even as I battle against sinful aspects of my nature. But because of this experience which I see as being shared with Paul, I have little credulity for those who you might call "salvation (or sanctification) preterists" as demonstrated on this thread... The view that we are all but ready for heaven, and just await our resurrected bodies.

The only way I can see this to be true is if somehow, it is our corruptible and corrupted flesh, still under the curse of Adam, that tempts us and lets us down. If that is the case, then yes, I can see how the only thing we need to be fit to enter the city is our resurrection bodies.

For instance, I like many men feel the thorn of lustful thoughts and temptations. It is an ongoing battle for me, and I very much hope that the battle will not rage in the age to come. Through the Holy Spirit, this sin nature is steadily being purged from me, and yet neither I nor any Christian (in my opinion) will succeed in defeating this sort of thing to the extent that we are fit to enter the gates.

So how do we enter the gates? Either, as Seth seems to suggest, no one enters immediately and we are all chastened to a degree in the age to come - in which case, how are we to understand the passages which seem to speak of a division with some immediately meeting God's standard? Or, we are cleansed by the blood of the lamb, we are perfected by faith in Him - in which case, how does one become one of those people for whom God perfects you by His grace, compared to those who are chastened/pruned to "destruction"/sent to Gehenna? Is this back to the intellectual assent-style faith of orthodoxy?

There is a gap between the state we are in when we die, and the state we are required to be in to enter the gates. My question is, how is that gap filled - by chastening or by grace? And how do you get to be in one group rather than the other?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This is being discussed in the "soul sleep" thread. Just fyi....Blessings....

[sheila]

imo..first/foremost grace..to come into His presence..then the chastening[for He chastens all He

receives as sons]  that they not be condemned with the wicked[demons/satan into LOF]

...the chastening is the 'correction" [zeal for thine house consumed me]

when He made a whip/cords and drove out those who made His Father's house into a den

of robbers/thieves....a severe 'chastising took place there"  to show us  the pattern. Temple

cleansed.........   House of Prayer/Communion with God....ten lavers..for washing our minds with

living pure water's of truth....firey altars= our understandin/misunderstandings cleansed to

accept the 'thoughts of God/communion"

   if we are not atoned for/grace/ corrected we are as good as dead..for we would continue/remain in error.... a 'marred' vessel

   when He writes in your minds His royal laws...your hearts will begin burning.....the spirit in your

heart..as He opens up His words to you[ God's temple in heaven opened..the ark of the testimony ]

       you have 'many' strpes..and few stripes..but 40 less one! 1 Kings 7;38  he then made 10

bronze basins.[atonement].each holding forty baths[washed with the water of His word of truth]

  think of it this was..the stripes..as a big X..or...wrong/answer as to what is His true word..and

   what we may have mis-understood/or had a lower[man's] understanding of [think et's being told

   the truth of salvation of all  the error/et a big 'stripe' that needs to be bathed/washed/healed]

   ...it was 'granted' she be arrayed in clean white lines...which stand for 'righteous acts'

    holy 'acts' of conduct and deeds. we are healed by His stripes when we see the error of not

understanding the thoughts of God led to His recieving stripes/crucified by  men and become

the 'appearance of sin..'marred'

   Now weknow thrugh the temple pattern..that priests minister in the temple..they wash sacrifices

etc...  men of little to no understanding are likened to beasts...and the Holyspirit told Peter..to

rise,Peter,kill and eat[though unclean reptiles/birds etc...not to call any man unclean]  what the

Holy Ghost was showing..was for Peter to 'put to death 'ignrance' of those men with little to no

understanding[gentiles]  to commune with them...that they may rise on that sheet to commune

with God.

[Farlsborough]

:cloud9: This is being discussed in the "soul sleep" thread. Just fyi....Blessings....

Ah, sorry. Would you be kind enough to link to this, as I've tried to forum search and google-forum-search "soul sleep" and there is no thread with such a name...!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It's under the "Judgment and Punishment" section of the board, and initial title is "Re: soul sleep".

[Seth]

So how do we enter the gates? Either, as Seth seems to suggest, no one enters immediately and we are all chastened to a degree in the age to come - in which case, how are we to understand the passages which seem to speak of a division with some immediately meeting God's standard? Or, we are cleansed by the blood of the lamb, we are perfected by faith in Him - in which case, how does one become one of those people for whom God perfects you by His grace, compared to those who are chastened/pruned to "destruction"/sent to Gehenna? Is this back to the intellectual assent-style faith of orthodoxy?

To clarify, I don't believe the point of the gospel is primarily to go to heaven. I think that believers are being chastened in this life, and maybe after resurrection too. Paul said he had a crown waiting for him after his race was over. So, I don't think chastening is what he was looking forward to, because he judged himself in his life rather than be condemned with the world.

I don't think that ANY believer who is walking according to the spirit has ANY part in Gehenna. I believe that Gehenna is ONLY for those who did the opposite and that they are already in Gehenna, and that when they hear the Sons of God speaking the Gospel, they will be saved from their sin.

The reason I believe those things, is because I believe that Gehenna represents sinfulness itself. Being turned over to one's own sin is not a method of judgment for those who have run the race and have a crown of righteousness laid up for them.

We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and maybe to receive a final kind of chastening, but those who have finished the race will never have to endure the Gehenna that they were already saved from in their lives.

[gregoryfl]

My question is, how is that gap filled - by chastening or by grace?

I believe it is both, based on an often overlooked passage from Paul:

For the grace of God, the life giver of all, was revealed to all the children of men and trains us that we would deny the wickedness and the cravings of this world and to live in this world with moderation and justice and with reverence for Alaha
(Tit 2:11-12)

His grace is what trains us. Lest we think that this training is all nice and soft, here are some other uses of the word to show how it is used elsewhere:

Pilate told the crowd concerning Yeshua:

"Therefore I am training him and I am forgiving him."
(Luk 23:16)

What kind of training was he planning on giving Yeshua?

Not every form takes such a drastic usage, here are some more gentler uses:

Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egypt, and was prepared in his words and also in his deeds."
(Act 7:22)

and I was trained, perfectly polished in the law of our forefathers.
(Act 22:3)

Yet, when our Father corrects us, as Paul said:

Anyone that is trained is not always expecting joy, but it has grief. But in the end, those that have word-wrestled with Him are granted the fruit of peace and righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)

Ronen

[eaglesway]

My question is, how is that gap filled - by chastening or by grace?

I believe it is both, based on an often overlooked passage from Paul:

For the grace of God, the life giver of all, was revealed to all the children of men and trains us that we would deny the wickedness and the cravings of this world and to live in this world with moderation and justice and with reverence for Alaha
(Tit 2:11-12)

His grace is what trains us. Lest we think that this training is all nice and soft, here are some other uses of the word to show how it is used elsewhere:

Pilate told the crowd concerning Yeshua:

"Therefore I am training him and I am forgiving him."
(Luk 23:16)

What kind of training was he planning on giving Yeshua?

Not every form takes such a drastic usage, here are some more gentler uses:

Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egypt, and was prepared in his words and also in his deeds."
(Act 7:22)

and I was trained, perfectly polished in the law of our forefathers.
(Act 22:3)

Yet, when our Father corrects us, as Paul said:

Anyone that is trained is not always expecting joy, but it has grief. But in the end, those that have word-wrestled with Him are granted the fruit of peace and righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)

Ronen

Humble youselves under the mighty hand of God and in due time He will lift you up. :o)

[FreeAtLast]

There are many kinds of Salvation

Saved from Sin(which brought in Death through Adam)all mankind is already saved from this through Yahshua (we have ALL been bought with a price!!!)
Saved from Punishment(LOF)those who Love Yahshua and keep his commandments will escape this--Those who don't repent will pay for their own Sins in the LOF--Which in turn they will be purified by the same fire that will burn the works but save the man--for what a man Sows he also Reaps(in this life and the next)
Saved from the Wrath that fell on the Jewish people and nation in ad 70--Yahshua was sent unto the Jewish people only--his teachings and judgements were directed towards the jewish people and nation only in the gospels--when you read the gospels keep this very important knowledge in mind--The wrath of the new testament was poured out on the jewish people and nation in ad 70--killing over 1 million jewish people and destroying their temple(way of worship and lifestyle)
Those who believed in Yahshua escaped this wrath and they were commanded to flee into the mountains(which was a safe haven prepared for them)
those who remained unbelievers were the ones taken away in destruction just like at the flood when they were taken away in destruction
the ones left behind were the believers who escaped both events and lived through the age.

Many scriptures deal with all mankind being judged according to their Works--for those that have done good(Works that were good) and those that have done evil(works were evil)Works does matter---either make the tree good or make it evil--for you will receive accordingly either Good or Evil(remember the parable of the rich man and lazarus ??)

But I also believe that through being punished for evil works---that the purpose of it is Glorious --to purify and bring the persons unto Yahshua(in essence by paying for their own sins and not repenting--they will through the LOF have their eyes opened and being purified--will when the purpose is complete-- will all at once bow the knee and falling upon their faces confessing with their mouth  Yahshua is Master unto the Glory of Yah !!!