Does Jesus save us from correction, or just death?

[jabcat]

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If I remember right, even "wrath" of God in the original word language is more a yearning toward.. wanting to gather, than it is anger (not to say actions like hitler, etc, don't 'anger' and strongly affront Him, I figure whatever we feel about such acts He feels a million fold)

Amen! "resurrection" - I am a new creation in Christ now, but I will "put on incorruption" and also "immortality"

Corinthians 15:21-24 (NKJV)

"21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power."
...when God the Father will say "behold I make all things new"

I think if we truly "rest in Him" and in the finished work of Jesus, we have nothing to 'worry' about..

How far can a believer fall? the more worldly.. the more they will suffer the results (called curses) which befall the world of mankind and his empires.. (especially ones alive at Jesus' return)

but will they lose their place in the 1st resurrection? and instead rise in the 2nd, still in their sins? that's a question I have..

If a believer lives a sinful lifestyle, does he/she truly believe? won't they draw near to God and experience liberation and transformation out of the sinful lifestyle? As James wrote, "by works showing faith"?

The "Seal of God" which is "upon our heart" "is the proof we are His". This is the Spirit in our heart "which cries, abba! Father!" -  this is the "stamp of His ownership"! And "what He has begun, He is faithful to bring to completion"..

The "separation at the time of judgment" I believe is not a reference to a 'Judgment Day' for believers but I believe is a reference to the world at His return.. for one's allotment to be with the unbelievers, to me, would be to be caught "unawares" and suffer more with the world as it is crashing.. the same "learning through humbling" occurring on a large scale.. the same collectively as individually..

    :smile:

marie, i really like this post, and so much agree with it.  the sethster and I are friends, and agree on MANY things.  He disagrees with me on some of this, and vice versa.  We see some of it differently, and he's probably right about some of the disagreement and I MAY be right about some of it.  But we still see many of the basics the same, and can have unity.   :thumbsup:   I've spent "a lifetime" (I'm going on 56 now) struggling with a lot of this stuff.  Long history of from legalism to living in shame that I won't discuss in detail.  But here are some of my thoughts on it.

I believe the context of being grafted in/cut, was about Israel and the nations/gentiles – having to do with God's administration of times moreso rather than a primary statement to an individual that "you can be lost again".  I believe if disobedient, we do lose anything not of God, suffer loss.  I believe there may be a difference in obedience/overcoming through the blood of the Lamb vs. walking according to the flesh, in terms of resurrections and/or position/privilege of service. 

I do NOT believe that a truly called, drawn, chosen, regenerated believer, given the faith to accept the gift of grace, can any longer live comfortably, carefree, in total disregard of God.  I believe if they "fall", it as the prodigal son;  miserable, in rebellion, suffering, knowing they need to return to their Father.  In essence, they may walk in defeat and carnality, but it's not their nature.  They're rebelling against their family blood-line, their new nature that was brought by Holy Spirit when they were saved and sealed unto that Day.  I DO believe in obedience, surrender, yielding of my will, "crucifying" my flesh.  But I don't believe I can do any of those things without His empowerment – Him working HIS works in and through me.  Otherwise, I'm just struggling, trying in my flesh to please Him and earn something He gives freely to the surrendered heart/spirit/will.

Some questions I consider;
If I fall, don't I fall on his grace that brought me to Him in the first place?

If I can completely fall away;
hasn't a 'son' become an 'un-son"?  (a blood-line child become a bastard?)

what did Jesus do for me?

What did the cross accomplish for me?

How is He the author and finisher of my faith?

How is He completing a good work in me?

Aren't I working for my free gift?

Aren't I in charge of salvation rather than "it doesn't depend on him who runs or wills, but on God Who shows mercy"?

I grew up in legalism – "one mistake and you're lost and you'll split hell wide open".  I reject it, and seek to trust in Him rather than my own strength or works.  Only He is sufficient.  "Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith".  Heb. 12:2

[jabcat]

P.S. seth  :handshake:  I think we see much of even what it may APPEAR we disagree on the same or near the same - with some nuance differences perhaps.    I also very much appreciate how you shared in your last post, even if we do understand some of it differently right now. 

Just something I'd like to say in general and forgot.  Most of my life, even as a believer, I've spent focused on me, what I've done right or wrong, how I've failed or pleased Him, etc...every now and then I get a little glimpse of, it's not about me but it's about Him...it's at those times my eyes can well up and I can appreciate maybe just a LITTLE bit of Who He is and what He's done for me.   :2c:

I think, if we love and trust SomeOne, can't we more likely truly serve Him (obedience/surrender)?  "We love Him because He first loved us"... blessings.

[Seth]

Hi James,
I don't think that we are far off, but I do want to clarify a bit about what I am saying.

I do NOT believe that a truly called, drawn, chosen, regenerated believer, given the faith to accept the gift of grace, can any longer live comfortably, carefree, in total disregard of God.  I believe if they "fall", it as the prodigal son;  miserable, in rebellion, suffering, knowing they need to return to their Father.  In essence, they may walk in defeat and carnality, but it's not their nature.

I agree with all that. But Marie's question was whether a believer could fall. You added "truly called, drawn, chosen, regenerated believer." I believe the choosing happens after the race is run (from a human perspective, God already knows). So I believe that not all believers are truly regenerated or chosen.

When John says "They went out from us but were not really of us" to me that shows that belief is not the ONLY ingredient to whether anyone falls, along with "It is not everyone that says to me, 'My Lord, my Lord", who enters the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does the will of my Father who is in Heaven."

If not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" enters the Kingdom of Heaven, then where are they?

I grew up in legalism – "one mistake and you're lost and you'll split hell wide open".  I reject it, and seek to trust in Him rather than my own strength or works.  Only He is sufficient.  "Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith".  Heb. 12:2

There's legalism (which comes by the Law) then there's Love, which comes by the Spirit. I think the Bible shows that walking in Love is not only beneficial, it is absolutely required. I don't believe in making ONE mistake is what does this. It's the overall fruit.

[Seth]

P.S. seth  :handshake:  I think we see much of even what it may APPEAR we disagree on the same or near the same - with some nuance differences perhaps.    I also very much appreciate how you shared in your last post, even if we do understand some of it differently right now. 

Just something I'd like to say in general and forgot.  Most of my life, even as a believer, I've spent focused on me, what I've done right or wrong, how I've failed or pleased Him, etc...every now and then I get a little glimpse of, it's not about me but it's about Him...it's at those times my eyes can well up and I can appreciate maybe just a LITTLE bit of Who He is and what He's done for me.   :2c:

I think, if we love and trust SomeOne, can't we more likely truly serve Him (obedience/surrender)?  "We love Him because He first loved us"... blessings.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it. To me, from my perspective, focusing on God means to focus on those he loves, the stranded and abandoned. That is why I believe James is telling us that faith alone cannot save us, from sin. A hard heart is not healed simply by "Lord Lord," but by receiving and walking by the Spirit. Faith is where it begins, like a seed. But some seeds remain dead and produce no tree.

When Jesus asked Peter, do you love me, three times, and the answer came back, yes. The reply was "then feed my sheep." What I am saying is that those who say "Lord, Lord" but do not walk in love, are not really focused on Him at all.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the good replies.

P.S. seth  :handshake:  nuance ..perhaps. 

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it. To me, from my perspective, focusing on God means to focus on those he loves, the stranded and abandoned.

Some more things I consider.  Although I believe in showing kindness to those (everyone, if possible), my "nuance"  :wink2: is, that focusing on Him means thanking, praising, worshiping Him directly ("drawing" myself "close" to God) - "walking in relationship" - and then works such as helping the stranded and abandoned flow out of that relationship;  His Spirit doing God's works through me.  Not saying I'm good at it, just that's what I believe.

..that's why I believe James is telling us that faith alone cannot save us, from sin. A hard heart is not healed simply by "Lord Lord," but by receiving and walking by the Spirit. Faith is where it begins, like a seed. But some seeds remain dead and produce no tree.

I've been considering the James and Paul thing.  Not sure I've 100% reconciled it all in my own mind, but I'll say some things I've been thinking... Paul says clearly we're saved by grace, not works.  He says the one not working is justified by believing.  James talks about faith being dead without works.  I've read your thoughts on it, am not saying there's no agreement.  But something did occur to me the other night.  I don't believe (I may be wrong) that James ever says a person isn't saved* if their "faith is dead".  As far as I know, he never says "grace is no longer in effect, the sealing of the Holy Spirit has been removed".  He says faith is dead (not working, not active, producing nothing) - they have a faith problem - not that they are no longer a child of God through the blood of Jesus being applied in their life (the miracle of new spiritual birth, done only by the Holy Spirit).  Anyway, there could probably be denominations started over this (oh, too late)...that's just some things I've been thinking lately.  :)  Blessings.

* God deciding it's their time, drawing them by the Holy Spirit, giving them faith to believe on Jesus AS SAVIOR [not just a lip/philosophical "Lord, Lord" - He says He NEVER knew that group], i.e., they were never given the gift, the "old things have passed away and behold all things are become new" had never occurred for them.  IMO, they were still in their darkness and sins, the blood not as yet applied to their lives.  I see it as not just a "I'm going to say 'Lord, Lord' and I'll be OK.  But that it's the miracle of the new spiritual birth - only as God arranges and accomplishes, in each heart in HIS timing.  (My understanding).

[Seth]

Some more things I consider.  Although I believe in showing kindness to those (everyone, if possible), my "nuance"  :wink2: is, that focusing on Him means thanking, praising, worshiping Him directly ("drawing" myself "close" to God) - "walking in relationship" - and then works such as helping the stranded and abandoned flow out of that relationship;  His Spirit doing God's works through me.  Not saying I'm good at it, just that's what I believe.

I agree and I approach it similarly, and not always successfully myself either. But my overall point, is that by doing all that, we've gone far beyond belief alone.

I've been considering the James and Paul thing.  Not sure I've 100% reconciled it all in my own mind, but I'll say some things I've thinking... Paul says clearly we're saved by grace, not works.

Right, but we should consider what we are saved from by grace. In Titus 2:11, Paul states that grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness. It's not the belief alone that causes salvation, but that we access grace through faith, and grace is what causes us to be saved from sin.

He says the one not working is justified by believing.  James talks about faith being dead without works.  I've read your thoughts on it, am not saying there's no agreement.  But something did occur to me the other night.  I don't believe (I may be wrong) that James ever says a person isn't saved* if their "faith is dead".

In context, though, Paul is talking about not working according to the LAW. Again, James is not preaching salvation by the Law. He is saying that, for example, if we claim to be saved from walkiing in WRATH, show it. Show it with your love. Don't say "Lord, Lord" then turn away a hungry brother and shut the door on him, then walk away thinking you are justified. James is saying, in that case, you aren't That is why his example is about RAHAB. Rahab was not under the Law, but she still obeyed God and was saved. I believe the crumbling city she was saved from represents the destructiveness of sin.

James does say "can that faith save him?" No it can't. We aren't justified by faith alone. Abraham was justified by faith...but not faith ALONE. He was justified through faith because faith caused him to obey God.

* God deciding it's their time, drawing them by the Holy Spirit, giving them faith to believe on Jesus AS SAVIOR [not just a lip/philosophical "Lord, Lord" - He says He NEVER knew that group], i.e., they were never given the gift, the "old things have passed away and behold all things are become new" had never occurred for them.  IMO, they were still in their darkness and sins, the blood not as yet applied to their lives.  I see it as not just a "I'm going to say 'Lord, Lord' and I'll be OK.  But that it's the miracle of the new spiritual birth - only as God arranges and accomplishes, in each heart in HIS timing.  (My understanding).

My understanding too. But, again, at that point, we've gone past belief, past "faith alone."

[WhiteWings]

yes, "not hurt by.."   covered by the blood of the Lamb

Everyone is covered by His blood, but still it's clear many will be cast in LoF.

Jesus saves from death, not correction.
The only way to avoid the second death is by being corrected before God decides who will be cast into LoF.

:iagree: but the Book does say, CLV(i) 11 '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

I see no conflict between that verse and my statement which you agreed with.
The group of people mentioned in that verse will not be hurt by LoF because they "conquered" or "overcame".
Overcame what? I think they overcame listening "to the voice of their flesh". They now listen to the voice of Father/Son/HS.

[marie glen]

Sometimes I think believers are closer in opinion than we might think.. Like the book of James, talking about "works showing belief" - I think "works" is also the changes which occur in the life.. and the fruit which appears and grows through union with Jesus.. But these "works" and fruit are different than struggling in our own strength for self improvement, which apparently doesn't work. :smile: (Or Christ died for no reason?)

I grew up in a very very strict household and perhaps this is why I have always shied away from the idea of lots of rules and struggling..

When I first became a christian my first puzzlement was discerning the voice of the Lord from the voice of the church(es)... It seemed to me that the voice of the Lord was "love" for those around me, etc.

But the voice I thought I was perceiving from the church(es) was a sort of "disapproval so they will know they are sinners".. It was obvious to me I could not have both attitudes..

Then too, I realized if out flowing love was the energy toward others, from Jesus.. then it was the same toward me. I, like many others more than likely, was very easily able to perceive/imagine disapproval and criticism. I believe all human hearts yearn for acceptance and this is something Jesus liberally has, and I believe it is an attitude I should have toward others. (I believe in letting the HS convince, in the KJ translated convict, ppl of their sins, not me.)

Later I realized a new depth to this as a realizing that I basically have one commandment.

To love God. (With all my strength and ability, or that is, sincerely.) If I love God I will of course 'pursue' Him.. think about Him, desire union with Him.. And, imo, will desire to feed and feast upon His Word/theTruth.

By loving God sincerely, I will draw near to Him and he, to use a pat phrase, "rubs off on us"! That is to say, if I love God truly, His Spirit will be in my heart and i WILL love my fellow person-"the fulfilling of the law". ("Love works no ill.")

This to me, speaks of the "freedom" and "liberality" which the gospel speaks of.. Not freedom to sin, of course, with those things is death.. (and 'yuckiness':)

It's a paradox that the more we mature in Jesus, the more glaring our faults.. and we will have faults until resurrection day.. But we can confess them to our Lord.. shaking our head over them, wishing and praying for improvement, but to stay focused upon them, or to 'worry' over them, to me is a form of self-ishness and also futility..

I am to "let my eye be single" which is to have my eye on Jesus, not self.. It's not all about me.. (haha, couldn't resist). Now if the flaw was unfaithfulness to my marriage, or I was a drunkard, etc, i would need to be much more serious about faults of this nature! But, keeping my eye on Jesus and "Loving God" and thus drawing near, would surely deliver me from such grievous error.. surely?? (I had a friend once who came to the Lord and still was a little loose in attitude about men.. I resisted the temptation to lecture her and gave it to the Lord, she responded to a man who gazed lovingly into her eyes, spent the night with him and never heard from him again.. it stung.. she reformed perfectly after that.. Perhaps I should have lectured her, but I find ppl don't listen.. whereas the HS cAn convince.)

I have seen people have faith and believe, for a short while, and then they don't anymore.. I do not believe they were true believers, they fit, imo, in the parable of the gospel did not take root in their heart..

I do believe "bitterness" in the heart of a believer (over life and its difficulties, especially as latter days progress) can possibly be a hindrance, and we need to root out any evidence of it in our heart.. And I believe dark forces try to trip us up in any way they can.. so there is still struggle..

But I think many believers needlessly beat themselves up over things which do not matter. And here is where discernment comes in. For instance, I believe it is a bad, bad thing to look upon one not my husband in desire. But to see a person and think they are an attractive person, simply in passing, does not strike me as sinful. I know this because the idea of getting close to any other than hubby would be repulsive.. I only mention this because I think many go overboard on blaming and convicting their self..

Maybe I'm wrong.. but I believe we need to lighten up! And keep our eyes on Jesus.. (perhaps it depends upon the person and circumstances, outlined in the Sermon on the Mount, granted some can fall into license :eek: ). Also "the word" is the answer to everything.. if we are saturating  our self daily in His Word and in prayer and praise, there is not so much room for grievous sins to snake their way in.. (and also of course the answers to every question is in "the word".. every new testament letter goes into grace and law.. except perhaps Philemon and Jude(?)

"Fruit" - grows by abiding on the vine.. by soaking up the Sonlight..  :2c: :friendstu:

[eaglesway]

The group of people mentioned in that verse will not be hurt by LoF because they "conquered" or "overcame".
Overcame what? I think they overcame listening "to the voice of their flesh". They now listen to the voice of Father/Son/HS.

:iagree:

[eaglesway]

Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
    and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."[a]
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

Jesus saves from correction, through correction. The corrected one becomes broken and contrite of heart, and is accepted. The blood flows.

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgives us our sins AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

Their is no correction for a truly contrite heart, only forgiveness, acceptance, cleansing, restoration.

It will only be those who have not "bowed the knee" who will endure aionian kolassis, and it will only endure until their knee bends and they confess the Lordship of Jesus.

Among believrs, I think that only those who have not allowed the sword of the Spirit to divide asunder soul and spirit to make manifest the motivations of their hearts(Heb 4), to come out into the Day to have their works manifest as wood hay and stubble or gold silver and precious stone will endure the correction of having their works consumed at the judgment seat of Christ where Paul says we must all give account for the deeds done in our bodies. I personally do not believe this is the lake of fire, which I believe is only reserved for the wicked and impenitent ones of the ages, who do not bow the knee at the great white throne.

If we endure correction, we escape correction. The result is contrition, which is the well-source of the obedience that is acceptable to God. (Rom 12)

You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.

[Seth]

You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.

:iagree: 

I would even say that even (spiritual) death itself can be corrective.

Jeremiah 2:19
Your own wickedness will correct you, And your apostasies will reprove you;

[WhiteWings]

You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.

If you would have written: "Jesus saves from the second death through correction"
I could agree.

Likely our different view is rooted in the question "Do believers/overcomers die?"
I think everybody dies. For that reason I can't agree with your conclusion.

Does Jesus save us from or out of death? (Heb 5:7)


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment,  but has passed out of death into life. – John 5:24

[Seth]

I am to "let my eye be single" which is to have my eye on Jesus, not self.. It's not all about me..

I guess for me, it's like what James (Jabcat) said earlier, it's about nuances, seeing the prism from a different angle, rather than seeing it differently altogether.

Is it all about us? Take a look at a scripture that came to mind.

1 Corinthians 13
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

From my perspective, being "in the faith" is much more than simply believing Jesus Christ exists, or that he is the savior of the world, or any other intellectual proposition. Even the devils believe and they tremble.

We don't know if we are in the faith, except we examine ourselves. Jesus gave us a good benchmark:

Matthew 7
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Self examination is a good thing, and one that Paul highly recommends to us.

[eaglesway]

You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.

If you would have written: "Jesus saves from the second death through correction"
I could agree.

Likely our different view is rooted in the question "Do believers/overcomers die?"
I think everybody dies. For that reason I can't agree with your conclusion.

Does Jesus save us from or out of death? (Heb 5:7)


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment,  but has passed out of death into life. – John 5:24

Well, actually WW I think we are pretty much in agreement there. I know believers die, physically. I was using "death" in the broader sense of all that we experience as the result of being "in death" through Adam. Jesus delivers us from the fruit of death through correction- among many other ways. I would say correction is one thing that opens the way for more grace to grow, flow. It is all in the Potter's hands.

"And we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the glory may be of God and not of ourselves."

Forgiveness makes us children/sons. Correction testifies that we are indeed legitimate. Forgiveness exceeds correction, of course. :o)

[micah7:9]

Being found by the Savior Jesus the Christ, imo, and which I believe, the very process of saving begins. That being found begins our correction and that correction leads us to know that death has no victory. Oh how I love Jesus. :dsunny:

[WhiteWings]

You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.

If you would have written: "Jesus saves from the second death through correction"
I could agree.

Likely our different view is rooted in the question "Do believers/overcomers die?"
I think everybody dies. For that reason I can't agree with your conclusion.

Does Jesus save us from or out of death? (Heb 5:7)


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment,  but has passed out of death into life. – John 5:24

Well, actually WW I think we are pretty much in agreement there. I know believers die, physically. I was using "death" in the broader sense of all that we experience as the result of being "in death" through Adam. Jesus delivers us from the fruit of death through correction- among many other ways. I would say correction is one thing that opens the way for more grace to grow, flow.

It's still not entirely clear to me what you mean. Personally, I never heard anyone claim people don't die physically. Neither am I talking about the sinful nature (which we all have). I think it all boils down to the soul sleep question. Personally, I think even the best overcoming saint walking on this planet will be "atheistic dead" for a while. The only exception I can see is when Jesus returned.

Maybe I have to explain the difference between 'from' and 'out of'. English isn't my first language so I may assume making a clear statement which isn't so clear at all...

Out of: People are really completely 'atheisticly' dead. They get resurrected in one of Revelations resurrections.

From: This one is basically cheating death. Your body dies, but your 'essense'  instantly moves on to the 'after world'


The fact that the resurrection occurs at all is because Jesus paid the wages of death. (that's what grace is all about)
Correction is  a process everyone has to endure. This life, the next life and in many cases both lives.

[WhiteWings]

Being found by the Savior Jesus the Christ, imo, and which I believe, the very process of saving begins. That being found begins our correction and that correction leads us to know that death has no victory. Oh how I love Jesus. :dsunny:

Jesus knows exactly where you are all the time. So need to be found  :LH:
I think there is no process of saving besides Jesus's earthly life.
Salvation was completed the moment Jesus died on the cross.

A process of correction I can fully agree with. I'm all verses about refining and washing are about that process...

:2c:

[jabcat]

"sirs what must I do to be saved?" acts 16:30

[eaglesway]

Jesus saves from death. He also, in a measure saves us from correction, because mercy triumphs over judgment. He, also saves us through correction, because he chastises every son He receives, yet- He also saves us ultimately, from every aspect of death and all correction, presenting us to the Father, spotless and without blemish, because of Hiis death on the cross.  :2c:

And they, being pricked to the heart,cried out, "Men and brethren, what must we do!?" Peter replied, "Repent, and let everyone  of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Chrst for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and you're children and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord will call to Himself."

[WhiteWings]

James good verse.

It's difficult to explain what I mean. Maybe I didn't use the right words above.
I'll try again....

Imo there are 2 different kinds of "saved".

Because the wages of sin is death, and we are all sinners our destiny is death.
Jesus saved every person that ever existed and will exist from that destiny. He did so by buying us on the cross.
Perhaps this kind of saved would be better called "bought"?

But we can also be saved from the second death. Become an overcomer. Rule in the millennial Kingdom with Jesus, etc.
I'm not wanting to divert this thread in another works/faith thread so I just say one thing we should do to get saved is become a Christian and not be a muslim, atheist, satanist, etc

[eaglesway]

It would be too easy if one verse or another explained all there is to being saved. I agree tho, the place we begin is at Jesus Christ and faith in Him, and submission to Him as Lord.

Salvation is like a seed. "The good husbandmen is patient over his field, awaitng both the early and the latter rains, first the shoot, then the stalk, then the full head of grain(ready to reap/gather).

[Farlsborough]

I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.

Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?

[Seth]

I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.

:thumbsup:

Acts 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save (sozo - heal) yourselves from this untoward generation.

Reconciled by his death...saved by his LIFE ("and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"). Peter wasn't acting like they were already saved from the corruption of his generation.

[eaglesway]

I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.

Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?

Rather than open that can of worms here you can just read back through the "Soul Sleep" thread, which is still active :o)

[jabcat]

Yes I know it's hard to explain :)

The "universality", finality, comprehensiveness of what Jesus did on the cross is, I believe, beyond our ability to fully explain or comprehend. 

On the other hand, I believe each one, when God wills and gives the faith to believe/receive the free gift, will have their "personal moment", and their life in Christ begins from there.  To grow in grace and knowledge, learn to walk in the Spirit, etc... But again, what He did on the cross is still paramount and the lynch-pin to it all.  Nothing earned - freely given.  In due time.  His righteousness not ours...

Yes, hard to explain :)