Please bear with me, I'm new to all this. I have tried to search for previous answers to this question but as you can imagine, lots of the same terminology comes up on most threads!
My understanding so far concerning U.R. is that:
-the wages of sin is death
-Jesus is the saviour of all, saving us from this - therefore we will all be resurrected and judged, some to kolasis, some to life in the age to come.
-To believe, to be a Christian etc. is of huge benefit, both because God will work His grace in your life, give you the HS to sanctify you, and enable you to "work out" your salvation immediately. There is also suggestion of responsibility and reward in the next age, and a role in preaching/healing those in the "lake of fire", outside the (open) gates.
-Those who are not believers will yet be divided into those who may enter the kingdom, and those for kolasis/apollumi... potentially on the basis of how they treat Christians? (I'm sketchy on this - sheep and goats etc).
-In the end, through self-crucifixion or destruction, all will be reconciled to God.
Please chip in with amendments/additions or corrections as you believe them to be. However, my question is this:
For the Christian, does Jesus' death spare us correction/fiery destruction/purification etc? In other words, for the weak, sinful person who nevertheless acknowledges their sin, do they still go to the lake of fire by virtue of their deeds - will King David be spending a long time there because of his fairly heinous sins? Or do people feel the lake of fire deals with people in the spiritual condition in which they are at that point, and that Christ's sacrifices atone for all past sins? (Like forgiving an alcoholic for the brawling he's done, but still needing to correct his current condition).
Likewise, what are people's views on those who do not acknowledge or accept Christ's sacrifice in this life, and yet lead a relatively virtuous life because they were brought up well? If I am correct in thinking that TM's collective opinion is that some "sheep" will avoid the lake of fire, have these people essentially achieved salvation through works? Have they achieved under their own steam what we seem to believe it takes repentance, grace and sanctification for the Christian to achieve?
I suppose I'm curious because what I can't disavow is the sense that when one becomes a Christian, *something* pretty big has happened. You have accepted something, something has changed, and that is going to have both worldly consequences and consequences in the age to come. But if all we are saying is that to become a Christian is to acknowledge the sifting and eventual reconciliation that is going to occur, it seems, well...
I may have just answered my own question with a little thinking...! But surely Christ's sacrifice *must* do away with the need for humility through destruction, because otherwise (given that there are no perfect people), how could anyone be said to avoid the LoF?
you're hitting on something i've been thinking about lately. may have more to say later. but the cross, jesus' death, His finished work on the cross, I BELIEVE means more for us than may be imagined - to those given faith to believe now, to "become children of God" - then to all at the restoration. Still, all through the cross and grace. every knee will bow, every tongue confess - JESUS. not "i came through this fire" or "i overcame this", or "i worked until i attained.." i believe the faith He gives to bring us to Him also brings with it the grace to be sufficient, to sustain/maintain us, to compel us forward - to work in us HIS works of righteousness - as we surrender - not our own. thanks for your post.
Shalom,
My question would be, where is it taught in scripture that anyone avoids the lake of fire? I think most would look at two passages in Revelation to prove that:
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won't be hurt by the second death. (Rev 2:11)
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years. (Rev 20:6)
I believe that every teaching and doctrine has its foundation, its root, in the Tanakh, and that John was relating the reality of what occurred in type and shadow back in the book of Daniel, for it is only there where we find the same exact two expressions used that are found in Revelation. Here they are in Daniel:
He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods. (Dan 3:25)
The satraps, the deputies, and the governors, and the king's counselors, being gathered together, saw these men, that the fire had no power on their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed, neither were their pants changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them. (Dan 3:27)
Here we have 3 overcomers, willing to die obeying God rather than man, and yet they did not avoid the fire, which incidentally, was heated 7 times (I believe another hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured).
It does not make normal sense to say someone is not hurt by something, nor that something has no power over them, unless they experienced it. In my opinion, all experience the lake of fire, and our experience of it depends on what burns, and what does not. The more that is burned up, the more we are hurt and overpowered by it.
Ronen
yes, "not hurt by.." covered by the blood of the Lamb
re: ... heated 7 times ... hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured.
I love the Psalms and devote a great deal of time and energy to studying them... always looking for comparable verses in the rest of the Bible...of course, I really appreciate any Bible that has cross references... such as Ps 12:6 --->Dan 3:19
Psalm 12:6
The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over.
Dan 3:19
Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury and his facial expression was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Therefore he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was usually heated.
and still wonder what the connection is... and certainly will lead to a deeper understanding of the fire. Any ideas???
Quote from: anna274 on June 06, 2014, 01:53:07 AM
re: ... heated 7 times ... hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured.
I love the Psalms and devote a great deal of time and energy to studying them... always looking for comparable verses in the rest of the Bible...of course, I really appreciate any Bible that has cross references... such as Ps 12:6 --->Dan 3:19
Psalm 12:6
The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over.
Dan 3:19
Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury and his facial expression was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Therefore he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was usually heated.
and still wonder what the connection is... and certainly will lead to a deeper understanding of the fire. Any ideas???
The word 'seven' in Hebrew is based on the 2 letter marriage root (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png), which expresses the action of sitting. We get, from this root, the Hebrew words return, restore, sit, stillness, and seven, just to name a few. What these all have in common is they are a returning to a beginning. We started out still, before we had the breath of life breathed into us, animating us. When we sit, we return to that action of stillness, the opposite of standing and moving around. Shabbat is the marking of the end of the 6 day workweek cycle, serving as a returning point, before once again counting another 6 days of work. When we restore something, we are bringing it back to its original owner, returning it. And so, when scripture speaks of seven, it is speaking of that which is completed, a returning to an original state.
So when I read of a fire heated seven times, or of his words purified seven times over, I see it as a shuv, a returning to an original state, because the process is complete. That is not totally exclusive, for there are instances of something happening 10 times, which has its own separate Hebraic understanding, not discounting at all the completeness of something happening 7 times. Each number shares a facet of truth.
That Psalm you shared I think ties in wonderfully with Daniel, in describing on a deeper level what the fire is. I believe it is every bit connected to our Father.
Ronen
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2014, 12:54:46 AM
yes, "not hurt by.." covered by the blood of the Lamb
:thumbsup: Just as during that first Pesach when they covered all sides of the door with the blood of the lamb so as not to be harmed when he went through Mitsrayim.
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 06, 2014, 02:22:42 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2014, 12:54:46 AM
yes, "not hurt by.." covered by the blood of the Lamb
:thumbsup: Just as during that first Pesach when they covered all sides of the door with the blood of the lamb so as not to be harmed when he went through Mitsrayim.
amen
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 06, 2014, 02:15:28 AM
The word 'seven' in Hebrew is based on the 2 letter marriage root (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png), which expresses the action of sitting. We get, from this root, the Hebrew words return, restore, sit, stillness, and seven, just to name a few. What these all have in common is they are a returning to a beginning. We started out still, before we had the breath of life breathed into us, animating us. When we sit, we return to that action of stillness, the opposite of standing and moving around. Shabbat is the marking of the end of the 6 day workweek cycle, serving as a returning point, before once again counting another 6 days of work. When we restore something, we are bringing it back to its original owner, returning it. And so, when scripture speaks of seven, it is speaking of that which is completed, a returning to an original state.
So when I read of a fire heated seven times, or of his words purified seven times over, I see it as a shuv, a returning to an original state, because the process is complete. That is not totally exclusive, for there are instances of something happening 10 times, which has its own separate Hebraic understanding, not discounting at all the completeness of something happening 7 times. Each number shares a facet of truth.
That Psalm you shared I think ties in wonderfully with Daniel, in describing on a deeper level what the fire is. I believe it is every bit connected to our Father.
Ronen
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Reminds me of Him sitting at the right hand of the Father, His returning to His original state. Blessings.....
hello, it's my belief no one is going to the LOF. I have been a spiritual hermit and have lacked indoctrination into any set of beliefs.
Are death and the grave thrown to the LOF for purification??
My (VERY) strong conviction that no one goes to a LOF is based upon what I read in my Bible and by what the HS counsels and reveals. And really? it's the Word only which counts. Nevertheless I know this view is radical and hard for ppl to conceive of after the centuries of other teaching and belief.
It's SO easy for (some) Christians to imagine a 'gap' between Genesis one and two (a gap of 'million' er, now 'billions' of years which declares the Bible to be myth) yet very hard to perceive of "Judgment Day" lasting more than a day. (!!??? a day to examine and judge all things.. all human history.. do we realize how many 'ages', empires, towns, lives are to be reviewed and examined? ..oh the stories in that day.. (otherwise why all of this in the first place if it's not for teaching His creations good from evil?)
I get what you are saying about Christian terminology and pet phrases and beliefs. Plus any set of doctrines is hard to introduce anything new. I'm sure all of us here know about that..!
Notice (please) how the notorious statement "those not believing will go to the second death" (the same place death and the grave are thrown to! and two active institutions of man at Jesus' return, the world beast/body and the false prophet/teaching which turned Christendom on its ear) is the last verse of the chapter.
Now I need to show you something else. The 1st advent of Jesus fulfilled Israels' ancient Spring Holy Days of Passover, Unleavened/pure/sinless Bread and the Firstfruit (day of firstfruits where a single sheaf of wheat was "waved in the air".
So, if the Spring Holy Days prophesied His first advent, is it not reasonable to assume the ancient Fall Holy Days of - Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles - prophesy three main peaks of His long second advent??
Looking at those Holy Days, each fall there was/is Trumpets, then 10 days later DOA (day of atonement), and then 5 days later, Tabernacles. It's not hard at all to see "Trumpets" as prophesying His return and the 10 days representing the 1000 year millenium, and "Tabernacles" as prophesying when all is said and done, and the Father and His Throne come to the earth, and Revelation 21, verse 3 says He will now "Tabernacle" with man upon earth..
But what to do with that great peak in between - Day of Judgment - which begins with the "second resurrection" the one of all those who have not yet believed, nor perhaps even heard, thus they are "still in their sins"/imperfection, in essence still DOA-dead on arrival, so to speak..
My thought is (revealed by the HS as I am just not that clever) if the "10 days" coincides to the millenium, then the "5 days" coincides to the Day of Judgment/DOA-surprise! Day Of Atonement..
[color=orange]Do we realize what a day of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" this Holy Day was for ancient Israel????[/color]
[I can't believe how obvious it is and Christendom (what's left of it) cannot see it!!]
My point is, after experiencing being resurrected, and living through and witnessing what can only be an extremely long day of the examination and judging of all things, who?? is not going to "believe"??
Hence, I (veRy) strongly believe no person goes to the Lake Of Fire!! And I believe it is much more supported by the Bible than any other scenario.
I'd like to add just one more thing.. God Himself, surely? is Life itself, the spark, the life force itself.. who/what else would or could be?? "In the beginning God.."
And, He is also Perfection, surely?? (or else He too would fade? or would never have been!)
So you see when He endowed thinking ability, which includes the ability, sooner or later, to make choices.. w whole new world (er tree) of possibilities was born, for to choose any thing in thought, wordd or deed which disagrees with what He chooses, is to become im-perfect, the opposite of life. Hence He built the rescue in "from the beginning/foundation".
Because He endowed thinking ability, there is suffering.. but He, being Life, lives through, suffers and experiences all suffering which ever occur! why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His own family and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because ALL will fully realize good from evil, which is also LiFe from death/non-life. It will be deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche, that one simply cannot walk away from God. It simply cannot be done, but can only result in a self destructive puff of smoke, dust and ashes/apocalypse.
God bless you for your seeking!!
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 06, 2014, 02:15:28 AM
Quote from: anna274 on June 06, 2014, 01:53:07 AM
re: ... heated 7 times ... hint as to a deeper understanding of what this fire pictured.
I love the Psalms and devote a great deal of time and energy to studying them... always looking for comparable verses in the rest of the Bible...of course, I really appreciate any Bible that has cross references... such as Ps 12:6 --->Dan 3:19
Psalm 12:6
The words and promises of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in an earthen furnace, purified seven times over.
Dan 3:19
Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury and his facial expression was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Therefore he commanded that the furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was usually heated.
and still wonder what the connection is... and certainly will lead to a deeper understanding of the fire. Any ideas???
The word 'seven' in Hebrew is based on the 2 letter marriage root (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/bo.png)(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5638259/ah/shu.png), which expresses the action of sitting. We get, from this root, the Hebrew words return, restore, sit, stillness, and seven, just to name a few. What these all have in common is they are a returning to a beginning. We started out still, before we had the breath of life breathed into us, animating us. When we sit, we return to that action of stillness, the opposite of standing and moving around. Shabbat is the marking of the end of the 6 day workweek cycle, serving as a returning point, before once again counting another 6 days of work. When we restore something, we are bringing it back to its original owner, returning it. And so, when scripture speaks of seven, it is speaking of that which is completed, a returning to an original state.
So when I read of a fire heated seven times, or of his words purified seven times over, I see it as a shuv, a returning to an original state, because the process is complete. That is not totally exclusive, for there are instances of something happening 10 times, which has its own separate Hebraic understanding, not discounting at all the completeness of something happening 7 times. Each number shares a facet of truth.
That Psalm you shared I think ties in wonderfully with Daniel, in describing on a deeper level what the fire is. I believe it is every bit connected to our Father.
Ronen
Ronen, I'm so sorry for my delay in replying/thanking you for yet another quick and very helpful (esp. re: seven) post; I became so involved in a study of "furnace" and the three men's names AND "bones" ... I'm thinking/praying about starting another thread on Bones: one flesh/one spirit as I don't want to go off topic... I sincerely appreciate your very helpful posts.
Shalom Marie,
I love how you incorporate the Moedim (Appointed Times) into this discussion. We differ on some of the details, but I appreciate how you are working things out. Would you mind explaining a bit more of how you see it; that no one ends up in the lake of fire. I have never heard that understanding before. I take it that by your bolded statement in the beginning, you cannot see the lake of fire as something that purifies because death and hades are thrown into it, or are you saying it cannot serve that function for those two things?
Ronen
Quote from: anna274 on June 06, 2014, 06:43:42 PMI'm thinking/praying about starting another thread on Bones: one flesh/one spirit as I don't want to go off topic... I sincerely appreciate your very helpful posts.
Shalom Anna,
Looking forward to what He speaks through you concerning that. :)
Shalom Farlsborough
With regard to your specific question, I personally see Yeshua saving us, redeeming us, etc, from the death in Isa 25:7,8, described in Hebrew poetic parallelism:
And He shall swallow up on this mountain the surface of the covering which covers all people, and the veil which is spread over all nations. (Isa 25:7)
He shall swallow up death forever, and the Master יהוה shall wipe away tears from all faces, and take away the reproach of His people from all the earth. For יהוה has spoken. (Isa 25:8)
This is not physical death, but the death I believe Adam and Chawa experienced the very day they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the same death Yeshua experienced, as an innocent man, for all humanity during the darkness while on the tree, when he cried out 'My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?', to which, sin being thus condemned in his flesh, he could state emphatically, BEFORE his physical death...IT IS FINISHED!
Ronen
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 05, 2014, 09:56:28 PM
For the Christian, does Jesus' death spare us correction/fiery destruction/purification etc? In other words, for the weak, sinful person who nevertheless acknowledges their sin, do they still go to the lake of fire by virtue of their deeds
Hi Farlsborough
Simple answer first: for the weak, sinful person who never acknowledges their sin, they are already in the fire.
There are things to understand before my answer makes sense. Jesus died to save us from something, and here is what that something is:
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
for he shall save his people from their sins.
I believe from what scripture says, that to be saved from sin,
is to be saved from the fire. In other words, I believe the "fire" in Christ's parables and the Lake of Fire represents our sin from which we need to be saved.
James 3
5Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts
the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and
is itself set on fire by hell (Gehenna).
The word "Gehenna" erroneously translated as "hell" in the Bible, I believe represents "the course of one's life on fire" when they are not acknowledging their sin and taking pleasure in it. I believe it is compared to fire, because sin is destructive, and actually has humbling power in its destructiveness.
This is what we need salvation from, the need to be humbled by having to be worn down by our sin. For those who do not acknowledge their sin (an example of pride at work), they will remain in their destructive spiritual fire until they reach out for a savior from their sin, which God will bring about according to his sovereignty, so that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear an oath, surely they shall say in the Lord I have righteousness and strength." (Isaiah 45:22-24)
Thank you Seth. I have read a lot of your website and it's very helpful; I certainly appreciate the direct and what one might call "doctrinal" approach, because I have to admit I find some of the answers on here a little like the Buddhist boy in The Matrix... "I've realised... There is no spoon!"
Can you clarify a couple of things? If Christ saves us from our sin, am I right in thinking that you see this in terms of a progressive salvation ("working it out"), which one can lose hold of? I.e. those few who enter by the narrow gate are those who persist/run the race to the end etc?
In that case, what benefit in terms of sin/release from sin do you see for the Christian, if any? And how do you see physical death and resurrection? Because surely this is the wage of sin, and resurrection a gift bought by Christ's sacrifice?
And how do you interpret verses like 2 Thess. 1:9 (and others), that seem to indicate some clear division, with some people going straight into the kingdom/God's presence?
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 06, 2014, 10:50:50 PM
Can you clarify a couple of things? If Christ saves us from our sin, am I right in thinking that you see this in terms of a progressive salvation ("working it out"), which one can lose hold of? I.e. those few who enter by the narrow gate are those who persist/run the race to the end etc?
Yes, the word salvation comes from the Greek "sozo" meaning to be healed or made whole. Sinfulness is like a sickness in the soul that one may again infect themselves again. Remember when Jesus cast the devils out of the person and said that the reason they return is because they find a clean well swept place? We must keep an inhospitable house for sin. I've failed to do that myself sometimes, and end up going down a road I don't want to walk, so I run back to the Lord and ask him to keep me well.
If my hand is healed from a burn, and I go out and foolishly place it in a boiling pot of water, well then I need healing for my hand again.
Peter talks about this in 2 Peter 2, saying it would have been better for people to have never known the way of righteousness than to know it and turn their back on it. Why? Not because they are "going to hell" (Peter never says that). But because they end up worse than they were before.
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 06, 2014, 10:50:50 PMIn that case, what benefit in terms of sin/release from sin do you see for the Christian, if any? And how do you see physical death and resurrection? Because surely this is the wage of sin, and resurrection a gift bought by Christ's sacrifice?
The benefit is HUGE. The Bible says that to be carnally minded is death, so in any discussion about salvation from death, we can't ignore carnal mindedness from the equation. Being delivered from the carnal mind is being saved from death.
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 06, 2014, 10:50:50 PMAnd how do you interpret verses like 2 Thess. 1:9 (and others), that seem to indicate some clear division, with some people going straight into the kingdom/God's presence?
First, I want to say that the kingdom of God is at hand. It's not just something we wait for, but something that is being formed even today.
But, yes I do believe that there both is and will be a separation. That separation is what causes humility. In the Bible, God's method of judgment is to turn people over to slavery/captivity. Israel was turned over to Babylon for 70 years to cause them repentance.
If we check Romans 1, sin is no different. God uses sinfulness as a method of judgment. If people want sin, especially those who say "Lord, Lord," God will say "away from me ye who work iniquity" and will allow them to be turned over to their desires "to receive in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 06, 2014, 08:46:29 PM
Shalom Marie,
I love how you incorporate the Moedim (Appointed Times) into this discussion. We differ on some of the details, but I appreciate how you are working things out. Would you mind explaining a bit more of how you see it; that no one ends up in the lake of fire. I have never heard that understanding before. I take it that by your bolded statement in the beginning, you cannot see the lake of fire as something that purifies because death and hades are thrown into it, or are you saying it cannot serve that function for those two things?
Ronen
hi! I've actually had second thoughts ina small degree (yes, purifying) and was going to start a new topic (and still might) titled: the unable to be forgiven sin and the LOF
I think if one continuously hardens their heart against God their heart can become impenetrable and this is what I think of a the unable to be forgiven sin, called "blasphemy against the HS"
..and in this case I'm thinking Yes! the LOF must purify, because (God can only be perfect, and) perfect loses nothing..
The two of rev 19 who are thrown "alive" into the LOF are an institution of man and a strong delusion/teaching and latter age belief of man as to life's origins..
The nobody into the LOF belief is due to believing the Day of Judgement when all those who have never believed or heard, surely must be a very very long day - if the ancient fall holy days prophecy the 2nd advent like the spring ones did the 1st, I believe it will last 500 years - Day of Judgment, that is.
And I think of Day of Judgment when the 2nd resurrection arrives DOA (i.e. "still in their sins") as the middle peak of the long 2nd advent and represented by Day of Atonement (DOA) when Israel spent the day wailing (and gnashing their teeth?) over their sins..
I believe logically (and because of placement of the verse) that it's ONLY at the conclusion of that long day of the examination and judging of all things (a great 'day' of review) that is said (paraphrased) - those not "believing" will go to the 2nd death, the LOF - Where now I believe any who still "hate" God so much they still cannot "bend the knee" will go for purification..
I'm now thinking the grave and death having no ultimate "truth" to them will be consumed.. imo
-- My thought is, that God is all powerful (an attribute of Perfection) and no one can usurp His Will, so why would He need more strident measures for all those in the 2nd resurrection, than He did for those, who through no will, choice or act of their own (but His!) were "chosen" to be part of that 1st resurrection/faith b4 death? I believe the difference is simply for "drama" sake as this life is His proof drama proving good from evil/life from death,nonlife; the unavoidable foundation lesson, unavoidable if there's to be thinking ability, that is, as with thinking ability, sooner or later (surely?) comes the ability to make choices..
God bless! :smile:
Thanks Seth.
Quote from: Seth on June 06, 2014, 10:26:35 PM
This is what we need salvation from, the need to be humbled by having to be worn down by our sin. For those who do not acknowledge their sin (an example of pride at work), they will remain in their destructive spiritual fire until they reach out for a savior from their sin, which God will bring about according to his sovereignty, so that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear an oath, surely they shall say in the Lord I have righteousness and strength." (Isaiah 45:22-24)
So in essence you see the division that seems to occur after judgement as being a vast cosmic version of what Paul talks about in terms of handing a church member over to Satan for his ultimate reconciliation?
Sorry to go over this again and again! I'm still trying to get to grips with this - I'm sure you guys are sick of seeing newbies like me going through this process all the time!
The difficulty I'm having - and probably because of the tradition in which I've grown up - is that, whilst I fully accept what you mean about the Kingdom of God being near, and accessible now, there does seem to be a separation at the time of judgement (you've acknowledged this). Now, my view (flexible...!) would have been that *nothing* imperfect can "enter the gates", but we can enter because we have had our robes dipped in the blood of the lamb.
So - do we still have to "pay off" our past sins before entering?! Or are those forgiven thanks to Jesus? And what about unbelievers? Isn't it weird to think that everyone is going to have to "do their time", or put the finishing touches to their healing (which happens by "kolasis" in your opinion) irrespective of whether they believe or not, when Christ is our sacrificial lamb?
I suppose I'm almost being selfish about this, but also I find it unnerving (which is fine, and necessary sometimes) - but the moments when I've experienced the most beautiful presence of God and felt like I've glimpsed His love is when it's dawned on me how sinful I am and how much He has forgiven me. But it feels like URers are essentially telling me: great, you're (possibly) elect and fitted for service in aeonian life... but you're still going to have to receive the justice/destruction/consequences due to you because of your sinful actions along with everyone else. Suddenly God seems less forgiving, not more (to me, anyway), and (selfishly) the fact that all people will end up reconciled to God doesn't remove my apprehension at re-shouldering the aeonian consequences of my actions.
I suppose one source of confusion is the distinction between wrong things you have done in the past, which surely require justice, and also the condition of your soul at the time of judgement - are you "fit for heaven", or are you quick tempered, greedy and so on. If I understand correctly, your view is that the latter - the fruits of the carnal mind - are what need to be removed (by "fire") in the next age, and that as Christians we can partake of that purification today. But no Christian is going to be able to be fully cleansed from these things in this age - does that mean all will be salted with fire in the next age as well? Do we just endure less of it because of the groundwork put in now?
And what of past sins - what about the "justification" type stuff? For instance, Hitler (the classic example) has all of that blood on his hands. Will there be any actual punishment for him for that? ("Vengeance is mine, I will repay") Or is his judgement the full crushing weight of the realisation of what he has done when he sees the Lord face to face?
I can't conceive of how this happens in any sort of time frame. You would think that as soon as someone saw God face-to-face, they would say "oh crap! I was wrong! I'll instantly change!". I suppose your answer might be that the greed, or lust, or fast tempter they have allowed to take hold will still need to be steadily dealt with, and this is the "lake of fire". And that they will also need to learn about Scripture, and that guiding them in these tasks will be the elect, carrying out the healing leaves... something like this?
Because the various bits of symbolism allow so many concepts to be packed in, it is so hard to get your head round!
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 08, 2014, 11:19:02 PM
The difficulty I'm having - and probably because of the tradition in which I've grown up - is that, whilst I fully accept what you mean about the Kingdom of God being near, and accessible now, there does seem to be a separation at the time of judgement (you've acknowledged this). Now, my view (flexible...!) would have been that *nothing* imperfect can "enter the gates", but we can enter because we have had our robes dipped in the blood of the lamb.
I've actually committed more detail to a 2 part paper I wrote about it if that helps: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html
When it comes to the kingdom, it says in Revelation that nothing imperfect may enter. But also, remember in the parables, for example, that the kingdom is compared to a fisherman who pulls in both good fish and bad fish, and examines them and throws away the bad fish. Also, the kingdom is compared to wheat and tares that grow together until such a time that the tares are gathered from the wheat and thrown into the "fire."
I believe in Revelation, we are seeing the kingdom of
perfected saints which shall judge the world, and receive the rest of creation into their glorious liberty. Until the final putting away of the flesh and resurrection into new bodies, we will never be perfect.
Consider the parable of the Vine and branches as a good example:
John 15
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit
he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
You see that believers still need "pruning" to bear more fruit. That's because they aren't perfect. But they only receive that correction if they remain in him. If they don't remain in him, their destiny is the "fire," again the natural result of sinfulness. It results in humility, but what a rough and joyless road. The saints are to have joy in their tribulations, but a person who is like a "branch" that "withers" for lack of "water" and is "burned" is joyless and troubled. I'd rather be humbled now, than need to be humbled later.
QuoteSo - do we still have to "pay off" our past sins before entering?! Or are those forgiven thanks to Jesus? And what about unbelievers? Isn't it weird to think that everyone is going to have to "do their time", or put the finishing touches to their healing (which happens by "kolasis" in your opinion) irrespective of whether they believe or not, when Christ is our sacrificial lamb?
I don't see it as a "paying off." I see it exactly as with the Prodigal Son. Those who receive the inheritance of the Kingdom may very well waste it in this life. This is what I believe the "fire" represents. The destruction of the Prodigal Son until he desired a savior and remembered his father. I believe judgment is for humbling, not for payback.
QuoteI suppose I'm almost being selfish about this, but also I find it unnerving (which is fine, and necessary sometimes) - but the moments when I've experienced the most beautiful presence of God and felt like I've glimpsed His love is when it's dawned on me how sinful I am and how much He has forgiven me. But it feels like URers are essentially telling me: great, you're (possibly) elect and fitted for service in aeonian life... but you're still going to have to receive the justice/destruction/consequences due to you because of your sinful actions along with everyone else.
Every action has consequences though, right? We are not saved from the natural consequences of sin just because we believe in Christ. If we do drugs, or watch pornography, etc those things have direct consequences in our spiritual lives, don't they? Even if we believe in Jesus, if we go out sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, will we not receive exactly what we sow? The purpose of Jesus' death, along with other things, is a signifier of the death of sinful flesh, in a spiritual way in our minds, unto freedom from sin. That is why Jesus tells us to take up our cross and follow him to our own death. He gives us the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to follow him, through belief, to do that, so that we receive much better fruit by walking according to the Spirit.
QuoteIf I understand correctly, your view is that the latter - the fruits of the carnal mind - are what need to be removed (by "fire") in the next age, and that as Christians we can partake of that purification today. But no Christian is going to be able to be fully cleansed from these things in this age - does that mean all will be salted with fire in the next age as well? Do we just endure less of it because of the groundwork put in now?
The best way to get rid of a condemned house is to let it burn to the ground. What I believe, concerning the Biblical application of "fire," is that it represents the natural destructive consequences of sin. Jesus wants to save us from that, by giving believers the Holy Spirit and telling us to walk according to the Spirit. That way, we can learn and grow without the need for destruction.
For the stubborn and unrepentant, they will have to face the inevitable destruction of their houses through the spiritual fire that is sin. I hope that clarifies a bit.
I do not believe God is waiting to smack us with a stick for past sins. I believe God's method of judgment is revealed in the parable of the Prodigal Son, where we don't see an emotionally angry God, but we do see the father allowing destruction to come upon his son for the purpose of humbling him. He didn't send his men out to find him, or go out himself. He simply waited until the son found out that his sin was his own betrayer. And then he received him when he ran back to his father's house.
That I believe is the wrath of God.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
If I remember right, even "wrath" of God in the original word language is more a yearning toward.. wanting to gather, than it is anger (not to say actions like hitler, etc, don't 'anger' and strongly affront Him, I figure whatever we feel about such acts He feels a million fold)
Amen! "resurrection" - I am a new creation in Christ now, but I will "put on incorruption" and also "immortality"
Corinthians 15:21-24 (NKJV)
"21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power."
...when God the Father will say "behold I make all things new"
I think if we truly "rest in Him" and in the finished work of Jesus, we have nothing to 'worry' about..
How far can a believer fall? the more worldly.. the more they will suffer the results (called curses) which befall the world of mankind and his empires.. (especially ones alive at Jesus' return)
but will they lose their place in the 1st resurrection? and instead rise in the 2nd, still in their sins? that's a question I have..
If a believer lives a sinful lifestyle, does he/she truly believe? won't they draw near to God and experience liberation and transformation out of the sinful lifestyle? As James wrote, "by works showing faith"?
The "Seal of God" which is "upon our heart" "is the proof we are His". This is the Spirit in our heart "which cries, abba! Father!" - this is the "stamp of His ownership"! And "what He has begun, He is faithful to bring to completion"..
The "separation at the time of judgment" I believe is not a reference to a 'Judgment Day' for believers but I believe is a reference to the world at His return.. for one's allotment to be with the unbelievers, to me, would be to be caught "unawares" and suffer more with the world as it is crashing.. the same "learning through humbling" occurring on a large scale.. the same collectively as individually..
I think perhaps some of the error is due to tradition seeing death as another form of life, and seeing a 'hereafter' (and death) as a sort of floaty place and sees us as 'going to heaven' rather than heaven coming to us & the earth.
:smile:
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2014, 12:54:46 AM
yes, "not hurt by.." covered by the blood of the Lamb
Everyone is covered by His blood, but still it's clear many will be cast in LoF.
Jesus saves from death, not correction.
The only way to avoid the second death is by being corrected before God decides who will be cast into LoF.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2014, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2014, 12:54:46 AM
yes, "not hurt by.." covered by the blood of the Lamb
Everyone is covered by His blood, but still it's clear many will be cast in LoF.
Jesus saves from death, not correction.
The only way to avoid the second death is by being corrected before God decides who will be cast into LoF.
:iagree: but the Book does say, CLV(i) 11 '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may
under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
Quote from: marie glen on June 09, 2014, 05:53:59 PM
If I remember right, even "wrath" of God in the original word language is more a yearning toward.. wanting to gather, than it is anger (not to say actions like hitler, etc, don't 'anger' and strongly affront Him, I figure whatever we feel about such acts He feels a million fold)
Yeah, wrath is not separate from caring. My daughter (5 years old) is sometimes convinced that I don't love her when I correct her. It's the way she perceives it. She doesn't yet realize that I only come across as wrathful because I care about her wellbeing. I think understanding God's wrath requires a certain amount of growth in us. Someday, she will look back and discover that I was not nearly as wrathful as she had thought.
QuoteHow far can a believer fall? the more worldly.. the more they will suffer the results (called curses) which befall the world of mankind and his empires.. (especially ones alive at Jesus' return)
but will they lose their place in the 1st resurrection? and instead rise in the 2nd, still in their sins? that's a question I have..
Personally I think a believer can fall all the way. Even Peter said that it would have been better for some people never to have known the way of righteousness than to know and fall away, because they turn out worse than they were before.
QuoteIf a believer lives a sinful lifestyle, does he/she truly believe? won't they draw near to God and experience liberation and transformation out of the sinful lifestyle? As James wrote, "by works showing faith"?
Yes, exactly, faith without works is dead. Faith is something that needs to be finished. If left unfinished, it then becomes useless.
James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?
can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.Can faith alone save him? Nope. Salvation from sin requires more than faith. It requires walking according to the Spirit. A believer who believes but does not obey is already in death.
QuoteI think perhaps some of the error is due to tradition seeing death as another form of life, and seeing a 'hereafter' (and death) as a sort of floaty place and sees us as 'going to heaven' rather than heaven coming to us & the earth.
:smile:
Yes, I also think that too much theology about death focuses too much on passing away in the body, rather than "to be carnally minded is death."
Quote from: marie glen on June 09, 2014, 05:53:59 PM
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
If I remember right, even "wrath" of God in the original word language is more a yearning toward.. wanting to gather, than it is anger (not to say actions like hitler, etc, don't 'anger' and strongly affront Him, I figure whatever we feel about such acts He feels a million fold)
Amen! "resurrection" - I am a new creation in Christ now, but I will "put on incorruption" and also "immortality"
Corinthians 15:21-24 (NKJV)
"21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power."
...when God the Father will say "behold I make all things new"
I think if we truly "rest in Him" and in the finished work of Jesus, we have nothing to 'worry' about..
How far can a believer fall? the more worldly.. the more they will suffer the results (called curses) which befall the world of mankind and his empires.. (especially ones alive at Jesus' return)
but will they lose their place in the 1st resurrection? and instead rise in the 2nd, still in their sins? that's a question I have..
If a believer lives a sinful lifestyle, does he/she truly believe? won't they draw near to God and experience liberation and transformation out of the sinful lifestyle? As James wrote, "by works showing faith"?
The "Seal of God" which is "upon our heart" "is the proof we are His". This is the Spirit in our heart "which cries, abba! Father!" - this is the "stamp of His ownership"! And "what He has begun, He is faithful to bring to completion"..
The "separation at the time of judgment" I believe is not a reference to a 'Judgment Day' for believers but I believe is a reference to the world at His return.. for one's allotment to be with the unbelievers, to me, would be to be caught "unawares" and suffer more with the world as it is crashing.. the same "learning through humbling" occurring on a large scale.. the same collectively as individually..
:smile:
marie, i really like this post, and so much agree with it. the sethster and I are friends, and agree on MANY things. He disagrees with me on some of this, and vice versa. We see some of it differently, and he's probably right about some of the disagreement and I MAY be right about some of it. But we still see many of the basics the same, and can have unity. :thumbsup: I've spent "a lifetime" (I'm going on 56 now) struggling with a lot of this stuff. Long history of from legalism to living in shame that I won't discuss in detail. But here are some of my thoughts on it.
I believe the context of being grafted in/cut, was about Israel and the nations/gentiles – having to do with God's administration of times moreso rather than a primary statement to an individual that "you can be lost again". I believe if disobedient, we do lose anything not of God, suffer loss. I believe there may be a difference in obedience/overcoming through the blood of the Lamb vs. walking according to the flesh, in terms of resurrections and/or position/privilege of service.
I do NOT believe that a truly called, drawn, chosen, regenerated believer, given the faith to accept the gift of grace, can any longer live comfortably, carefree, in total disregard of God. I believe if they "fall", it as the prodigal son; miserable, in rebellion, suffering, knowing they need to return to their Father. In essence, they may walk in defeat and carnality, but it's not their nature. They're rebelling against their family blood-line, their new nature that was brought by Holy Spirit when they were saved and sealed unto that Day. I DO believe in obedience, surrender, yielding of my will, "crucifying" my flesh. But I don't believe I can do any of those things without His empowerment – Him working HIS works in and through me. Otherwise, I'm just struggling, trying in my flesh to please Him and earn something He gives freely to the surrendered heart/spirit/will.
Some questions I consider;
If I fall, don't I fall on his grace that brought me to Him in the first place?
If I can
completely fall away;
hasn't a 'son' become an 'un-son"? (a blood-line child become a bastard?)
what did Jesus do for me?
What did the cross accomplish for me?
How is He the author and finisher of my faith?
How is He completing a good work in me?
Aren't I working for my free gift?
Aren't I in charge of salvation rather than "it doesn't depend on him who runs or wills, but on God Who shows mercy"?
I grew up in legalism – "one mistake and you're lost and you'll split hell wide open". I reject it, and seek to trust in Him rather than my own strength or works. Only He is sufficient. "Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith". Heb. 12:2
P.S. seth :handshake: I think we see much of even what it may APPEAR we disagree on the same or near the same - with some nuance differences perhaps. I also very much appreciate how you shared in your last post, even if we do understand some of it differently right now.
Just something I'd like to say in general and forgot. Most of my life, even as a believer, I've spent focused on me, what I've done right or wrong, how I've failed or pleased Him, etc...every now and then I get a little glimpse of, it's not about me but it's about Him...it's at those times my eyes can well up and I can appreciate maybe just a LITTLE bit of Who He is and what He's done for me. :2c:
I think, if we love and trust SomeOne, can't we more likely truly serve Him (obedience/surrender)? "We love Him because He first loved us"... blessings.
Hi James,
I don't think that we are far off, but I do want to clarify a bit about what I am saying.
QuoteI do NOT believe that a truly called, drawn, chosen, regenerated believer, given the faith to accept the gift of grace, can any longer live comfortably, carefree, in total disregard of God. I believe if they "fall", it as the prodigal son; miserable, in rebellion, suffering, knowing they need to return to their Father. In essence, they may walk in defeat and carnality, but it's not their nature.
I agree with all that. But Marie's question was whether a believer could fall. You added "truly called, drawn, chosen, regenerated believer." I believe the choosing happens after the race is run (from a human perspective, God already knows). So I believe that not all believers are truly regenerated or chosen.
When John says "They went out from us but were not really of us" to me that shows that belief is not the ONLY ingredient to whether anyone falls, along with "It is not everyone that says to me, 'My Lord, my Lord", who enters the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does the will of my Father who is in Heaven."
If not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" enters the Kingdom of Heaven, then where are they?
QuoteI grew up in legalism – "one mistake and you're lost and you'll split hell wide open". I reject it, and seek to trust in Him rather than my own strength or works. Only He is sufficient. "Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith". Heb. 12:2
There's legalism (which comes by the Law) then there's Love, which comes by the Spirit. I think the Bible shows that walking in Love is not only beneficial, it is absolutely required. I don't believe in making ONE mistake is what does this. It's the overall fruit.
Quote from: jabcat on June 10, 2014, 03:05:20 AM
P.S. seth :handshake: I think we see much of even what it may APPEAR we disagree on the same or near the same - with some nuance differences perhaps. I also very much appreciate how you shared in your last post, even if we do understand some of it differently right now.
Just something I'd like to say in general and forgot. Most of my life, even as a believer, I've spent focused on me, what I've done right or wrong, how I've failed or pleased Him, etc...every now and then I get a little glimpse of, it's not about me but it's about Him...it's at those times my eyes can well up and I can appreciate maybe just a LITTLE bit of Who He is and what He's done for me. :2c:
I think, if we love and trust SomeOne, can't we more likely truly serve Him (obedience/surrender)? "We love Him because He first loved us"... blessings.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it. To me, from my perspective, focusing on God means to focus on those he loves, the stranded and abandoned. That is why I believe James is telling us that faith alone cannot save us, from sin. A hard heart is not healed simply by "Lord Lord," but by receiving and walking by the Spirit. Faith is where it begins, like a seed. But some seeds remain dead and produce no tree.
When Jesus asked Peter, do you love me, three times, and the answer came back, yes. The reply was "then feed my sheep." What I am saying is that those who say "Lord, Lord" but do not walk in love, are not really focused on Him at all.
Thanks for the good replies.
Quote from: Seth on June 10, 2014, 03:48:03 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 10, 2014, 03:05:20 AM
P.S. seth :handshake: nuance ..perhaps.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it. To me, from my perspective, focusing on God means to focus on those he loves, the stranded and abandoned.
Some more things I consider. Although I believe in showing kindness to those (
everyone, if possible), my "nuance" :wink2: is, that focusing on Him means thanking, praising, worshiping Him directly ("drawing" myself "close" to God) - "walking in relationship" - and then works such as helping the stranded and abandoned flow out of that relationship; His Spirit doing God's works through me. Not saying I'm good at it, just that's what I believe.
Quote from: Seth on June 10, 2014, 03:48:03 AM
..that's why I believe James is telling us that faith alone cannot save us, from sin. A hard heart is not healed simply by "Lord Lord," but by receiving and walking by the Spirit. Faith is where it begins, like a seed. But some seeds remain dead and produce no tree.
I've been considering the James and Paul thing. Not sure I've 100% reconciled it all in my
own mind, but I'll say some things I've been thinking... Paul says clearly we're saved by grace, not works. He says the one not working is justified by believing. James talks about faith being dead without works. I've read your thoughts on it, am not saying there's no agreement. But something did occur to me the other night. I don't believe (I may be wrong) that James ever says a person isn't saved
* if their "faith is dead". As far as I know, he never says "grace is no longer in effect, the sealing of the Holy Spirit has been removed". He says
faith is dead (not working, not active, producing nothing) - they have a faith problem - not that they are no longer a child of God through the blood of Jesus being applied in their life (the miracle of new spiritual birth, done only by the Holy Spirit). Anyway, there could probably be denominations started over this (oh, too late)...that's just some things I've been thinking lately. :) Blessings.
* God deciding it's their time, drawing them by the Holy Spirit, giving them faith to believe on Jesus AS SAVIOR [not just a lip/philosophical "Lord, Lord" - He says He NEVER knew that group], i.e., they were never given the gift, the "old things have passed away and behold all things are become new" had never occurred for them. IMO, they were still in their darkness and sins, the blood not as yet applied to their lives. I see it as not just a "I'm going to say 'Lord, Lord' and I'll be OK. But that it's the miracle of the new spiritual birth - only as God arranges and accomplishes, in each heart in HIS timing. (My understanding).
Quote from: jabcat on June 10, 2014, 04:20:49 AM
Some more things I consider. Although I believe in showing kindness to those (everyone, if possible), my "nuance" :wink2: is, that focusing on Him means thanking, praising, worshiping Him directly ("drawing" myself "close" to God) - "walking in relationship" - and then works such as helping the stranded and abandoned flow out of that relationship; His Spirit doing God's works through me. Not saying I'm good at it, just that's what I believe.
I agree and I approach it similarly, and not always successfully myself either. But my overall point, is that by doing all that, we've gone far beyond belief alone.
QuoteI've been considering the James and Paul thing. Not sure I've 100% reconciled it all in my own mind, but I'll say some things I've thinking... Paul says clearly we're saved by grace, not works.
Right, but we should consider what we are saved from by grace. In Titus 2:11, Paul states that grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness. It's not the belief alone that causes salvation, but that we access grace through faith, and grace is what causes us to be saved from sin.
QuoteHe says the one not working is justified by believing. James talks about faith being dead without works. I've read your thoughts on it, am not saying there's no agreement. But something did occur to me the other night. I don't believe (I may be wrong) that James ever says a person isn't saved* if their "faith is dead".
In context, though, Paul is talking about not working according to the LAW. Again, James is not preaching salvation by the Law. He is saying that, for example, if we claim to be saved from walkiing in WRATH, show it. Show it with your love. Don't say "Lord, Lord" then turn away a hungry brother and shut the door on him, then walk away thinking you are justified. James is saying, in that case, you aren't That is why his example is about RAHAB. Rahab was not under the Law, but she still obeyed God and was saved. I believe the crumbling city she was saved from represents the destructiveness of sin.
James does say "can that faith save him?" No it can't. We aren't justified by faith alone. Abraham was justified by faith...but not faith ALONE. He was justified through faith because faith caused him to obey God.
Quote* God deciding it's their time, drawing them by the Holy Spirit, giving them faith to believe on Jesus AS SAVIOR [not just a lip/philosophical "Lord, Lord" - He says He NEVER knew that group], i.e., they were never given the gift, the "old things have passed away and behold all things are become new" had never occurred for them. IMO, they were still in their darkness and sins, the blood not as yet applied to their lives. I see it as not just a "I'm going to say 'Lord, Lord' and I'll be OK. But that it's the miracle of the new spiritual birth - only as God arranges and accomplishes, in each heart in HIS timing. (My understanding).
My understanding too. But, again, at that point, we've gone past belief, past "faith alone."
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2014, 06:37:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2014, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2014, 12:54:46 AM
yes, "not hurt by.." covered by the blood of the Lamb
Everyone is covered by His blood, but still it's clear many will be cast in LoF.
Jesus saves from death, not correction.
The only way to avoid the second death is by being corrected before God decides who will be cast into LoF.
:iagree: but the Book does say, CLV(i) 11 '"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
I see no conflict between that verse and my statement which you agreed with.
The group of people mentioned in that verse will not be hurt by LoF because they "conquered" or "overcame".
Overcame what? I think they overcame listening "to the voice of their flesh". They now listen to the voice of Father/Son/HS.
Sometimes I think believers are closer in opinion than we might think.. Like the book of James, talking about "works showing belief" - I think "works" is also the changes which occur in the life.. and the fruit which appears and grows through union with Jesus.. But these "works" and fruit are different than struggling in our own strength for self improvement, which apparently doesn't work. :smile: (Or Christ died for no reason?)
I grew up in a very very strict household and perhaps this is why I have always shied away from the idea of lots of rules and struggling..
When I first became a christian my first puzzlement was discerning the voice of the Lord from the voice of the church(es)... It seemed to me that the voice of the Lord was "love" for those around me, etc.
But the voice I thought I was perceiving from the church(es) was a sort of "disapproval so they will know they are sinners".. It was obvious to me I could not have both attitudes..
Then too, I realized if out flowing love was the energy toward others, from Jesus.. then it was the same toward me. I, like many others more than likely, was very easily able to perceive/imagine disapproval and criticism. I believe all human hearts yearn for acceptance and this is something Jesus liberally has, and I believe it is an attitude I should have toward others. (I believe in letting the HS convince, in the KJ translated convict, ppl of their sins, not me.)
Later I realized a new depth to this as a realizing that I basically have one commandment.
To love God. (With all my strength and ability, or that is, sincerely.) If I love God I will of course 'pursue' Him.. think about Him, desire union with Him.. And, imo, will desire to feed and feast upon His Word/theTruth.
By loving God sincerely, I will draw near to Him and he, to use a pat phrase, "rubs off on us"! That is to say, if I love God truly, His Spirit will be in my heart and i WILL love my fellow person-"the fulfilling of the law". ("Love works no ill.")
This to me, speaks of the "freedom" and "liberality" which the gospel speaks of.. Not freedom to sin, of course, with those things is death.. (and 'yuckiness':)
It's a paradox that the more we mature in Jesus, the more glaring our faults.. and we will have faults until resurrection day.. But we can confess them to our Lord.. shaking our head over them, wishing and praying for improvement, but to stay focused upon them, or to 'worry' over them, to me is a form of self-ishness and also futility..
I am to "let my eye be single" which is to have my eye on Jesus, not self.. It's not all about me.. (haha, couldn't resist). Now if the flaw was unfaithfulness to my marriage, or I was a drunkard, etc, i would need to be much more serious about faults of this nature! But, keeping my eye on Jesus and "Loving God" and thus drawing near, would surely deliver me from such grievous error.. surely?? (I had a friend once who came to the Lord and still was a little loose in attitude about men.. I resisted the temptation to lecture her and gave it to the Lord, she responded to a man who gazed lovingly into her eyes, spent the night with him and never heard from him again.. it stung.. she reformed perfectly after that.. Perhaps I should have lectured her, but I find ppl don't listen.. whereas the HS cAn convince.)
I have seen people have faith and believe, for a short while, and then they don't anymore.. I do not believe they were true believers, they fit, imo, in the parable of the gospel did not take root in their heart..
I do believe "bitterness" in the heart of a believer (over life and its difficulties, especially as latter days progress) can possibly be a hindrance, and we need to root out any evidence of it in our heart.. And I believe dark forces try to trip us up in any way they can.. so there is still struggle..
But I think many believers needlessly beat themselves up over things which do not matter. And here is where discernment comes in. For instance, I believe it is a bad, bad thing to look upon one not my husband in desire. But to see a person and think they are an attractive person, simply in passing, does not strike me as sinful. I know this because the idea of getting close to any other than hubby would be repulsive.. I only mention this because I think many go overboard on blaming and convicting their self..
Maybe I'm wrong.. but I believe we need to lighten up! And keep our eyes on Jesus.. (perhaps it depends upon the person and circumstances, outlined in the Sermon on the Mount, granted some can fall into license :eek: ). Also "the word" is the answer to everything.. if we are saturating our self daily in His Word and in prayer and praise, there is not so much room for grievous sins to snake their way in.. (and also of course the answers to every question is in "the word".. every new testament letter goes into grace and law.. except perhaps Philemon and Jude(?)
"Fruit" - grows by abiding on the vine.. by soaking up the Sonlight.. :2c: :friendstu:
Quote
The group of people mentioned in that verse will not be hurt by LoF because they "conquered" or "overcame".
Overcame what? I think they overcame listening "to the voice of their flesh". They now listen to the voice of Father/Son/HS.
:iagree:
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."[a]
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.
Jesus saves from correction, through correction. The corrected one becomes broken and contrite of heart, and is accepted. The blood flows.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgives us our sins AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
Their is no correction for a truly contrite heart, only forgiveness, acceptance, cleansing, restoration.
It will only be those who have not "bowed the knee" who will endure aionian kolassis, and it will only endure until their knee bends and they confess the Lordship of Jesus.
Among believrs, I think that only those who have not allowed the sword of the Spirit to divide asunder soul and spirit to make manifest the motivations of their hearts(Heb 4), to come out into the Day to have their works manifest as wood hay and stubble or gold silver and precious stone will endure the correction of having their works consumed at the judgment seat of Christ where Paul says we must all give account for the deeds done in our bodies. I personally do not believe this is the lake of fire, which I believe is only reserved for the wicked and impenitent ones of the ages, who do not bow the knee at the great white throne.
If we endure correction, we escape correction. The result is contrition, which is the well-source of the obedience that is acceptable to God. (Rom 12)
You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2014, 07:52:03 PM
You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.
:iagree:
I would even say that even (spiritual) death itself can be corrective.
Jeremiah 2:19
Your own wickedness
will correct you, And your apostasies will reprove you;
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2014, 07:52:03 PM
You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.
If you would have written: "Jesus saves from
the second death through correction"
I could agree.
Likely our different view is rooted in the question "Do believers/overcomers die?"
I think everybody dies. For that reason I can't agree with your conclusion.
Does Jesus save us
from or
out of death? (Heb 5:7)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. – John 5:24
Quote from: Marie GlenI am to "let my eye be single" which is to have my eye on Jesus, not self.. It's not all about me..
I guess for me, it's like what James (Jabcat) said earlier, it's about nuances, seeing the prism from a different angle, rather than seeing it differently altogether.
Is it all about us? Take a look at a scripture that came to mind.
1 Corinthians 13
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.From my perspective, being "in the faith" is much more than simply believing Jesus Christ exists, or that he is the savior of the world, or any other intellectual proposition. Even the devils believe and they tremble.
We don't know if we are in the faith, except we examine ourselves. Jesus gave us a good benchmark:
Matthew 7
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Self examination is a good thing, and one that Paul highly recommends to us.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 10, 2014, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2014, 07:52:03 PM
You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.
If you would have written: "Jesus saves from the second death through correction"
I could agree.
Likely our different view is rooted in the question "Do believers/overcomers die?"
I think everybody dies. For that reason I can't agree with your conclusion.
Does Jesus save us from or out of death? (Heb 5:7)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. – John 5:24
Well, actually WW I think we are pretty much in agreement there. I know believers die, physically. I was using "death" in the broader sense of all that we experience as the result of being "in death" through Adam. Jesus delivers us from the fruit of death through correction- among many other ways. I would say correction is one thing that opens the way for more grace to grow, flow. It is all in the Potter's hands.
"And we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the glory may be of God and not of ourselves."
Forgiveness makes us children/sons. Correction testifies that we are indeed legitimate. Forgiveness exceeds correction, of course. :o)
Being found by the Savior Jesus the Christ, imo, and which I believe, the very process of saving begins. That being found begins our correction and that correction leads us to know that death has no victory. Oh how I love Jesus. :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 11, 2014, 03:02:08 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 10, 2014, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2014, 07:52:03 PM
You could say, Jesus saves from death through correction, I think.
If you would have written: "Jesus saves from the second death through correction"
I could agree.
Likely our different view is rooted in the question "Do believers/overcomers die?"
I think everybody dies. For that reason I can't agree with your conclusion.
Does Jesus save us from or out of death? (Heb 5:7)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. – John 5:24
Well, actually WW I think we are pretty much in agreement there. I know believers die, physically. I was using "death" in the broader sense of all that we experience as the result of being "in death" through Adam. Jesus delivers us from the fruit of death through correction- among many other ways. I would say correction is one thing that opens the way for more grace to grow, flow.
It's still not entirely clear to me what you mean. Personally, I never heard anyone claim people don't die physically. Neither am I talking about the sinful nature (which we all have). I think it all boils down to the soul sleep question. Personally, I think even the best overcoming saint walking on this planet will be "atheistic dead" for a while. The only exception I can see is when Jesus returned.
Maybe I have to explain the difference between 'from' and 'out of'. English isn't my first language so I may assume making a clear statement which isn't so clear at all...
Out of: People are really completely 'atheisticly' dead. They get resurrected in one of Revelations resurrections.
From: This one is basically cheating death. Your body dies, but your 'essense' instantly moves on to the 'after world'
The fact that the resurrection occurs at all is because Jesus paid the wages of death. (that's what grace is all about)
Correction is a process everyone has to endure. This life, the next life and in many cases both lives.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 11, 2014, 05:56:06 AM
Being found by the Savior Jesus the Christ, imo, and which I believe, the very process of saving begins. That being found begins our correction and that correction leads us to know that death has no victory. Oh how I love Jesus. :dsunny:
Jesus knows exactly where you are all the time. So need to be found :LH:
I think there is no process of saving besides Jesus's earthly life.
Salvation was completed the moment Jesus died on the cross.
A process of correction I can fully agree with. I'm all verses about refining and washing are about that process...
:2c:
"sirs what must I do to be saved?" acts 16:30
Jesus saves from death. He also, in a measure saves us from correction, because mercy triumphs over judgment. He, also saves us through correction, because he chastises every son He receives, yet- He also saves us ultimately, from every aspect of death and all correction, presenting us to the Father, spotless and without blemish, because of Hiis death on the cross. :2c:
And they, being pricked to the heart,cried out, "Men and brethren, what must we do!?" Peter replied, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Chrst for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and you're children and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord will call to Himself."
James good verse.
It's difficult to explain what I mean. Maybe I didn't use the right words above.
I'll try again....
Imo there are 2 different kinds of "saved".
Because the wages of sin is death, and we are all sinners our destiny is death.
Jesus saved every person that ever existed and will exist from that destiny. He did so by buying us on the cross.
Perhaps this kind of saved would be better called "bought"?
But we can also be saved from the second death. Become an overcomer. Rule in the millennial Kingdom with Jesus, etc.
I'm not wanting to divert this thread in another works/faith thread so I just say one thing we should do to get saved is become a Christian and not be a muslim, atheist, satanist, etc
It would be too easy if one verse or another explained all there is to being saved. I agree tho, the place we begin is at Jesus Christ and faith in Him, and submission to Him as Lord.
Salvation is like a seed. "The good husbandmen is patient over his field, awaitng both the early and the latter rains, first the shoot, then the stalk, then the full head of grain(ready to reap/gather).
I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.
Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 11, 2014, 03:32:53 PM
I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.
:thumbsup:
Acts 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying,
Save (sozo - heal) yourselves from this untoward generation.
Reconciled by his death...saved by his LIFE ("and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"). Peter wasn't acting like they were already saved from the corruption of his generation.
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 11, 2014, 03:32:53 PM
I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.
Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?
Rather than open that can of worms here you can just read back through the "Soul Sleep" thread, which is still active :o)
Yes I know it's hard to explain :)
The "universality", finality, comprehensiveness of what Jesus did on the cross is, I believe, beyond our ability to fully explain or comprehend.
On the other hand, I believe each one, when God wills and gives the faith to believe/receive the free gift, will have their "personal moment", and their life in Christ begins from there. To grow in grace and knowledge, learn to walk in the Spirit, etc... But again, what He did on the cross is still paramount and the lynch-pin to it all. Nothing earned - freely given. In due time. His righteousness not ours...
Yes, hard to explain :)
Quote from: jabcat on June 11, 2014, 10:05:40 PM
On the other hand, I believe each one, when God wills and gives the faith to believe/receive the free gift, will have their "personal moment", and their life in Christ begins from there. To grow in grace and knowledge, learn to walk in the Spirit, etc...
I think what you call "personal movement", "walk" and "grow" is the purifying process that makes you avoid LoF.
The only bit I don't agree with in your post is "To grow in grace and knowledge".
I certainly believe/know someone can grow in knowledge. But not so in grace because grace is given by God. God is not a student that learns; He always operates at the same peak level. His amount of grace never varies.
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 11, 2014, 08:05:31 PM
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 11, 2014, 03:32:53 PM
I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.
Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?
Rather than open that can of worms here you can just read back through the "Soul Sleep" thread, which is still active :o)
Ha, OK, will do! Perhaps a different tack then:
Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2014, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 11, 2014, 10:05:40 PM
On the other hand, I believe each one, when God wills and gives the faith to believe/receive the free gift, will have their "personal moment", and their life in Christ begins from there. To grow in grace and knowledge, learn to walk in the Spirit, etc...
I think what you call "personal movement", "walk" and "grow" is the purifying process that makes you avoid LoF.
The only bit I don't agree with in your post is "To grow in grace and knowledge".
I certainly believe/know someone can grow in knowledge. But not so in grace because grace is given by God. God is not a student that learns; He always operates at the same peak level. His amount of grace never varies.
:2c:
I know that you and I seem to always be disagreeing, brother, but I do have to disagree with that.
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
I think what Peter means is that we have been given grace, but WE need to grow within that grace. So when Paul says that "the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, chastening us to abandon ungodliness," I think that is what Peter means. It's not grace that needs to grow, but WE who need to grow within grace.
yes, that's the reference...I sometimes quote that passage, but I guess it does lend itself to some delving into/explanation...thanks :thumbsup:
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 11, 2014, 11:15:24 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 11, 2014, 08:05:31 PM
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 11, 2014, 03:32:53 PM
I guess this is where the "reconciled by His death, saved by His life" bit comes in.
Out of interest, who believes our essence goes to be "with the lord" when "absent from the body", and who believes that "the dead know nothing" until resurrection?
Rather than open that can of worms here you can just read back through the "Soul Sleep" thread, which is still active :o)
Ha, OK, will do! Perhaps a different tack then:
Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?
Jesus said, " The kingdom of heaven is at hand". Its certainly not about luck :o) Its about calling and election. Those who are living in the kingdom are in heaven, "Seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus ", already. If anyone "goes straight to heaven" it is because thy were already living in it. Awake O sleeper, Arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine upon you.
Hmm, OK. But I can't help but feel that doesn't answer the question!
Even the most love-filled, holy, heavenly people I know will have some speck of bitterness or such within them. Either this would prevent them from entering the gates, or it needs to somehow be removed before they do enter.
I've been reading some people's posts that very much take the line that we have died and been resurrected with Christ, spiritually reborn and are awaiting bodily resurrection. I agree with this, buuuut, clearly all Christians still sin! So the idea that we are all but fit for heaven apart from our physical bodies doesn't seem to correspond to reality.
Unless... I suppose one could say that our flesh is still mortal and flawed, and this is what drags us down (it usually is, isn't it?! Lust, greed...) so even though obeying our flesh leads us to sin, this will not be a problem after the resurrection. Therefore our bodily resurrection is the final stage of our perfection.
Seth, I'm interested in your view on this; how do you see it as possible for some to essentially go straight to heaven (or, "enter the gates") after resurrection and judgement?
QuoteUnless... I suppose one could say that our flesh is still mortal and flawed, and this is what drags us down (it usually is, isn't it?! Lust, greed...)
Jesus had a real flesh body but wasn't dragged down.
Quote from: Seth on June 12, 2014, 05:20:05 AM
I know that you and I seem to always be disagreeing, brother, but I do have to disagree with that.
I'm aware of that :winkgrin:
All I'm going to say about it, is that it would help greatly if you would really read posts with the aim of understanding them, instead of looking for attack vectors. I causes you to overlook the larger framework. You seem to see many trees but no forrest. :handshake:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 12, 2014, 11:32:17 AM
QuoteUnless... I suppose one could say that our flesh is still mortal and flawed, and this is what drags us down (it usually is, isn't it?! Lust, greed...)
Jesus had a real flesh body but wasn't dragged down.
But Jesus was perfect; he didn't sin, he didn't deserve the "wage" of death. We all definitely do.
WW, what is your take on it? Are all those who can enter the gates immediately after resurrection and judgement those who are perfected in this life (is this even possible?)
What I'm trying to get at is that if some go to humbling destruction and some go into the city, God has a cut-off. Are you declared pure only by virtue of Christ's sacrifice (in which case how do you claim this for yourself?)
Jesus most certainly is/was perfect. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.
My point was, and still is, that He lived a perfect life with a body just like yours and mine.
So can we really (only) blame our/the body?
QuoteWW, what is your take on it? Are all those who can enter the gates immediately after resurrection and judgement those who are perfected in this life (is this even possible?)
What I'm trying to get at is that if some go to humbling destruction and some go into the city, God has a cut-off. Are you declared pure only by virtue of Christ's sacrifice (in which case how do you claim this for yourself?)
I'm still trying to figure it out.
So if you don't mind I give you a list of some points I'm using to figure out my final answer.
I'm not so sure the overcomers enter the city immediately because the city descents a little later. But that's your main point so until you registered I would have answered yes.
But you made a very good point by stating nobody is purified 100% so not ready for the city.
Maybe the answer can be found in this verse:
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.'
The verse says "not hurt" but it doesn't say they won't be touched by the second death at all. ??? :dontknow:
To be clear I don't see the second death as real death, but as all the bad habits dying. Washed away; because imo LoF is the Temple laver.
Hurt
ἀδικέω
adikeō
Thayer Definition:
1) absolutely
1a) to act unjustly or wickedly, to sin
1b) to be a criminal, to have violated the laws in some way
1c) to do wrong
1d) to do hurt
2) transitively
2a) to do some wrong or sin in some respect
2b) to wrong some one, act wickedly towards him
2c) to hurt, damage, harm
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G94
Citing in TDNT: 1:157, 22
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 12, 2014, 11:52:30 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 12, 2014, 05:20:05 AM
I know that you and I seem to always be disagreeing, brother, but I do have to disagree with that.
I'm aware of that :winkgrin:
All I'm going to say about it, is that it would help greatly if you would really read posts with the aim of understanding them, instead of looking for attack vectors. I causes you to overlook the larger framework. You seem to see many trees but no forrest. :handshake:
Attack vectors? That's not what I do. Was I wrong to disagree back there?
I tend to always try to find areas of agreement where they are in my conversations with people.
If you recall, most of our interactions have been when you have challenged me, like with the Law etc. You've never told me when you agree with me that I can recall.
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 11, 2014, 11:15:24 PM
Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?
Shalom Farlsborough,
I take you you are equating absolute purity or perfection with not sinning, would that be correct?
Perhaps this illustration will shed some light on your question. If I saw a lamb which had no blemish run around and wallow in a mud pit, would it be no longer without blemish?
Ronen
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 12, 2014, 11:29:24 AM
how do you see it as possible for some to essentially go straight to heaven (or, "enter the gates") after resurrection and judgement?
hi! I'm not sure I get the question..
when Jesus returns "we meet the Lord in the air" all dead and living believers/followers, then it's my thinking that Zechariah 14:4 says His feet then touch down upon the Mt of Olives.. "just as He was seen leaving, the Mt of Olives (Acts 1:19) so shall He be seen returning..
Zechariah 14:4 - New International Version (NIV)
4
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.Then, I believe, the
thousand year "millenium" of our Lord begins.. while satan&co are restricted, or in the abyss/bottomless pit..
I think believers will need the respite before what I think can only be,
then, an extremely long and difficult day of the thorough examination of all human history.. every dastardly, inhumane horror, all error.. a great day of review for both 1st and 2nd resurrection..
a day of wailing and weeping as the ancient Day of Atonement/collective repentance was for ancient Israel..It's
only after all this that the New Jerusalem with its gates comes to the planet, along with God's very throne and the Father Almighty Himself who will then Tabernacle with mankind upon earth.. "the lion will eat straw like the ox; the bear will be seen grazing with the cow" Is 11:7
I am not sure what is meant by the "judgment seat of Christ" if it is different from the Day of Judgment following the 2nd resurrection.. unless it is the judgment of nations at His return when He judges between mighty nations and they beat their weapons into plows and gardening tools..
It is at the first resurrection that all believers/followers will "put on immortality and incorruption"Then I believe the 2nd resurrection puts on immortality and incorruption when the Father "makes all things new" (Rev 21:3){the
ancient fall holy days as prophesy of the
three major peaks of the long 2nd advent --
Trumpets - (10days later) -
Day of Atonement - (5days later) -
Tabernacles & the gates
1000yrs 500yrs?
[..I think the gnostics made the mistake of thinking all flesh/matter as what was fallen into, and arose sects both ascetic and licentious, as if all matter, flesh; eating, sleeping, was evil, then, what the hey-which was what the "Nicolaitans" were into "which thing Jesus hates".. They forgot how after each night and day of creation God said "it's all good!" what was fallen into was choices made other than what God chooses, i.e. imperfection, corruption, death]
The being made perfect being a supernatural and miraculous act of God... all having been thoroughly convinced of the futility of walking away from God/Life/Perfection.. (can only end as collapse/apocalypse)
...to me, it's a matter of true belief! If someone extends an emerald, as a gift to me, if I truly believe it's an emerald and is a gift, I will take it, if I don't really believe, I will soon forget about it..
And also, true "belief" will, and cannot avoid, bearing fruit/works.. If Mary Magdalene had not truly believed, she would not have received deliverance from seven demons..
If Paul had not truly "believed" when he "saw Jesus" he would have continued his persecution and murder of saints/believers.
"Judge nothing before its time" I personally think there are lots of folks through the centuries, who have "believed" lived a basically good life of raising children, tilling the soil.. they may not have been great evangelists, but yet we have no idea how their life and days touched others or whatnot.. I know folks like that today too.. sometimes they surprise me..
Quote from: marie glen on June 13, 2014, 12:35:14 AM
"Judge nothing before its time" I personally think there are lots of folks through the centuries, who have "believed" lived a basically good life of raising children, tilling the soil.. they may not have been great evangelists, but yet we have no idea how their life and days touched others or whatnot..
Me too. I don't think being a great evangelist is what the factor is. In fact, when Jesus says "away from me ye who work iniquity" he says that to people who probably would identify themselves as evangelists, having performed great miracles.
1 Thess 4:11
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you
Nothing against evangelists, as I would consider Gary to be an evangelist of sorts, but I don't think needs to be everyone's call.
Quote from: marie glen on June 13, 2014, 12:35:14 AM
...to me, it's a matter of true belief! If someone extends an emerald, as a gift to me, if I truly believe it's an emerald and is a gift, I will take it, if I don't really believe, I will soon forget about it..
And also, true "belief" will, and cannot avoid, bearing fruit/works.. If Mary Magdalene had not truly believed, she would not have received deliverance from seven demons..
If Paul had not truly "believed" when he "saw Jesus" he would have continued his persecution and murder of saints/believers.
"Judge nothing before its time" I personally think there are lots of folks through the centuries, who have "believed" lived a basically good life of raising children, tilling the soil.. they may not have been great evangelists, but yet we have no idea how their life and days touched others or whatnot.. I know folks like that today too.. sometimes they surprise me..
I agree. The gift to be an evangelist(not like a contemporary preacher, but someone who just has a special facility for lifting up Jesus and ministering the good news) is one of many, many gifts God gives. I am personally certain more people have seen Jesus through the means Marie mentioned than hav been won by evenagelists.
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 12, 2014, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 11, 2014, 11:15:24 PM
Though we be steadily sanctified, none of us will reach absolute purity or perfection on earth, correct?
So how can some people - even a lucky few who find the narrow gate - be resurrected, judged and then (seemingly) go *straight* into the gates of heaven?
Shalom Farlsborough,
I take you you are equating absolute purity or perfection with not sinning, would that be correct?
Perhaps this illustration will shed some light on your question. If I saw a lamb which had no blemish run around and wallow in a mud pit, would it be no longer without blemish?
Hi Ronen, and thanks for your reply. I see what you're getting at... I think! We can be blemish-free through Christ but sullied by sin? Yet ultimately at the end of all things we are justified... Perhaps?
It is less the sinful acts so much as the weakness and flaws. Well, I suppose these lead to sinful acts. But what I mean is, Paul had a "thorn", he did not do the things he wanted to do and those things he wished not to do - he did! This is a hugely encouraging verse for me as it speaks of hope even as I battle against sinful aspects of my nature. But because of this experience which I see as being shared with Paul, I have little credulity for those who you might call "salvation (or sanctification) preterists" as demonstrated on this thread... The view that we are all but ready for heaven, and just await our resurrected bodies.
The only way I can see this to be true is if somehow, it is our corruptible and corrupted flesh, still under the curse of Adam, that tempts us and lets us down. If that is the case, then yes, I can see how the only thing we need to be fit to enter the city is our resurrection bodies.
For instance, I like many men feel the thorn of lustful thoughts and temptations. It is an ongoing battle for me, and I very much hope that the battle will not rage in the age to come. Through the Holy Spirit, this sin nature is steadily being purged from me, and yet neither I nor any Christian (in my opinion) will succeed in defeating this sort of thing to the extent that we are fit to enter the gates.
So how do we enter the gates? Either, as Seth seems to suggest, no one enters immediately and we are all chastened to a degree in the age to come - in which case, how are we to understand the passages which seem to speak of a division with some immediately meeting God's standard? Or, we are cleansed by the blood of the lamb, we are perfected by faith in Him - in which case, how does one become one of those people for whom God perfects you by His grace, compared to those who are chastened/pruned to "destruction"/sent to Gehenna? Is this back to the intellectual assent-style faith of orthodoxy?
There is a gap between the state we are in when we die, and the state we are required to be in to enter the gates. My question is, how is that gap filled - by chastening or by grace? And how do you get to be in one group rather than the other?
:cloud9: This is being discussed in the "soul sleep" thread. Just fyi....Blessings....
imo..first/foremost grace..to come into His presence..then the chastening[for He chastens all He
receives as sons] that they not be condemned with the wicked[demons/satan into LOF]
...the chastening is the 'correction" [zeal for thine house consumed me]
when He made a whip/cords and drove out those who made His Father's house into a den
of robbers/thieves....a severe 'chastising took place there" to show us the pattern. Temple
cleansed......... House of Prayer/Communion with God....ten lavers..for washing our minds with
living pure water's of truth....firey altars= our understandin/misunderstandings cleansed to
accept the 'thoughts of God/communion"
if we are not atoned for/grace/ corrected we are as good as dead..for we would continue/remain in error.... a 'marred' vessel
when He writes in your minds His royal laws...your hearts will begin burning.....the spirit in your
heart..as He opens up His words to you[ God's temple in heaven opened..the ark of the testimony ]
you have 'many' strpes..and few stripes..but 40 less one! 1 Kings 7;38 he then made 10
bronze basins.[atonement].each holding forty baths[washed with the water of His word of truth]
think of it this was..the stripes..as a big X..or...wrong/answer as to what is His true word..and
what we may have mis-understood/or had a lower[man's] understanding of [think et's being told
the truth of salvation of all the error/et a big 'stripe' that needs to be bathed/washed/healed]
...it was 'granted' she be arrayed in clean white lines...which stand for 'righteous acts'
holy 'acts' of conduct and deeds. we are healed by His stripes when we see the error of not
understanding the thoughts of God led to His recieving stripes/crucified by men and become
the 'appearance of sin..'marred'
Now weknow thrugh the temple pattern..that priests minister in the temple..they wash sacrifices
etc... men of little to no understanding are likened to beasts...and the Holyspirit told Peter..to
rise,Peter,kill and eat[though unclean reptiles/birds etc...not to call any man unclean] what the
Holy Ghost was showing..was for Peter to 'put to death 'ignrance' of those men with little to no
understanding[gentiles] to commune with them...that they may rise on that sheet to commune
with God.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 13, 2014, 09:21:33 PM
:cloud9: This is being discussed in the "soul sleep" thread. Just fyi....Blessings....
Ah, sorry. Would you be kind enough to link to this, as I've tried to forum search and google-forum-search "soul sleep" and there is no thread with such a name...!
:cloud9: It's under the "Judgment and Punishment" section of the board, and initial title is "Re: soul sleep".
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 13, 2014, 06:41:03 PMSo how do we enter the gates? Either, as Seth seems to suggest, no one enters immediately and we are all chastened to a degree in the age to come - in which case, how are we to understand the passages which seem to speak of a division with some immediately meeting God's standard? Or, we are cleansed by the blood of the lamb, we are perfected by faith in Him - in which case, how does one become one of those people for whom God perfects you by His grace, compared to those who are chastened/pruned to "destruction"/sent to Gehenna? Is this back to the intellectual assent-style faith of orthodoxy?
To clarify, I don't believe the point of the gospel is primarily to go to heaven. I think that believers are being chastened in this life, and maybe after resurrection too. Paul said he had a crown waiting for him after his race was over. So, I don't think chastening is what he was looking forward to, because he judged himself in his life rather than be condemned with the world.
I don't think that ANY believer who is walking according to the spirit has ANY part in Gehenna. I believe that Gehenna is ONLY for those who did the opposite and that they are already in Gehenna, and that when they hear the Sons of God speaking the Gospel, they will be saved from their sin.
The reason I believe those things, is because I believe that Gehenna represents sinfulness itself. Being turned over to one's own sin is not a method of judgment for those who have run the race and have a crown of righteousness laid up for them.
We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and maybe to receive a final kind of chastening, but those who have finished the race will never have to endure the Gehenna that they were already saved from in their lives.
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 13, 2014, 06:41:03 PMMy question is, how is that gap filled - by chastening or by grace?
I believe it is both, based on an often overlooked passage from Paul:
For the grace of God, the life giver of all, was revealed to all the children of men and
trains us that we would deny the wickedness and the cravings of this world and to live in this world with moderation and justice and with reverence for Alaha
(Tit 2:11-12)
His grace is what trains us. Lest we think that this training is all nice and soft, here are some other uses of the word to show how it is used elsewhere:
Pilate told the crowd concerning Yeshua:
"Therefore I am
training him and I am forgiving him."
(Luk 23:16)
What kind of training was he planning on giving Yeshua?
Not every form takes such a drastic usage, here are some more gentler uses:
Moses was
trained in all the wisdom of the Egypt, and was prepared in his words and also in his deeds."
(Act 7:22)
and I was
trained, perfectly polished in the law of our forefathers.
(Act 22:3)
Yet, when our Father corrects us, as Paul said:
Anyone that is
trained is not always expecting joy, but it has grief. But in the end, those that have word-wrestled with Him are granted the fruit of peace and righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 14, 2014, 04:03:39 AM
Quote from: Farlsborough on June 13, 2014, 06:41:03 PMMy question is, how is that gap filled - by chastening or by grace?
I believe it is both, based on an often overlooked passage from Paul:
For the grace of God, the life giver of all, was revealed to all the children of men and trains us that we would deny the wickedness and the cravings of this world and to live in this world with moderation and justice and with reverence for Alaha
(Tit 2:11-12)
His grace is what trains us. Lest we think that this training is all nice and soft, here are some other uses of the word to show how it is used elsewhere:
Pilate told the crowd concerning Yeshua:
"Therefore I am training him and I am forgiving him."
(Luk 23:16)
What kind of training was he planning on giving Yeshua?
Not every form takes such a drastic usage, here are some more gentler uses:
Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egypt, and was prepared in his words and also in his deeds."
(Act 7:22)
and I was trained, perfectly polished in the law of our forefathers.
(Act 22:3)
Yet, when our Father corrects us, as Paul said:
Anyone that is trained is not always expecting joy, but it has grief. But in the end, those that have word-wrestled with Him are granted the fruit of peace and righteousness.
(Heb 12:11)
Ronen
Humble youselves under the mighty hand of God and in due time He will lift you up. :o)
There are many kinds of Salvation
Saved from Sin(which brought in Death through Adam)all mankind is already saved from this through Yahshua (we have ALL been bought with a price!!!)
Saved from Punishment(LOF)those who Love Yahshua and keep his commandments will escape this--Those who don't repent will pay for their own Sins in the LOF--Which in turn they will be purified by the same fire that will burn the works but save the man--for what a man Sows he also Reaps(in this life and the next)
Saved from the Wrath that fell on the Jewish people and nation in ad 70--Yahshua was sent unto the Jewish people only--his teachings and judgements were directed towards the jewish people and nation only in the gospels--when you read the gospels keep this very important knowledge in mind--The wrath of the new testament was poured out on the jewish people and nation in ad 70--killing over 1 million jewish people and destroying their temple(way of worship and lifestyle)
Those who believed in Yahshua escaped this wrath and they were commanded to flee into the mountains(which was a safe haven prepared for them)
those who remained unbelievers were the ones taken away in destruction just like at the flood when they were taken away in destruction
the ones left behind were the believers who escaped both events and lived through the age.
Many scriptures deal with all mankind being judged according to their Works--for those that have done good(Works that were good) and those that have done evil(works were evil)Works does matter---either make the tree good or make it evil--for you will receive accordingly either Good or Evil(remember the parable of the rich man and lazarus ??)
But I also believe that through being punished for evil works---that the purpose of it is Glorious --to purify and bring the persons unto Yahshua(in essence by paying for their own sins and not repenting--they will through the LOF have their eyes opened and being purified--will when the purpose is complete-- will all at once bow the knee and falling upon their faces confessing with their mouth Yahshua is Master unto the Glory of Yah !!!
Perhaps the pig pen was the LOF for the prodigal son.
:thumbsup: EW ...........follyis tied up with the heart of a youth.....see Proverbs 5 in the end she is
bitter as gall..her feet go down to death[my son was dead!] the prodigals sin was failing to love his
father with all his heart souland mind[I will teach you what is the best for you] the elder's was failing
to love his brother as himself. One receive a fiery trial of which he suffered much...until he realized
the folly of his ways..returned humbled and repentant. The other missed out on the joy of the family re-union
[there is more joy at the repentance of one sinner]
many today have not this great joy of the Kingdom at the salvation of all men..due to not loving their
fellowman as themselves. Goodnews of a great joy. Psalms 45;7 You love righteousness and hate
wickedness;therefore God,your God,has set you above your companions by anointing you with the
oil of joy. it is the wedding song/supper.....that the elder son class refuse to attend..
here is the righteousness...as all men have born the image of the corruptible.so,too,shall all men
bear the image of the incorruptible one...here is the wickedness you hate..a cheating pair of scales.
not loving your Father with your whole heart mind and soul..is folly....and not loving your brother[fellowman]
as yourself is folly also. Both sons 'missed the mark' of love...and theie own iniquity rebuked them.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 29, 2014, 10:25:38 AM
Perhaps the pig pen was the LOF for the prodigal son.
I can agree EW. I have also asked this question, we know that the story is a parable, so do we know how long the son was it that pig pen?
The reason I ask, we see and hear of people "that get saved" and said to be "born again." Then we may see those same people later back "in the world" so to speak. So, are those folks still in the pig pen, and have not came to themselves, yet? Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself,....
For me imo, we don't know the length of time that is spent in the pig pen. Just asking. :Chinscratch:
I think whatever the pigpen was to the prodigal, the LOF is, and will be to those who bow the knee in the next age.
One thing is for certain, when the pgpen had accomplished its purpose, the prodigal left it.
As a state of being I think most people fall back into it from time to time. Maybe Peter was in it between when the cock crowed and the Lord comissioned him to "feed my sheep".
Maybe he was in it again when he was consorting with the Jewish believers against the gentile believers before Paul brought Peter to his senses.
I tend to see it as something with layers, in time and out of time.
:cloud9: Exactly. I do, too. The Master refiner will refine all to where none is lost, whether while in this clay vessel, or not, His hand is not too short to reach the furthest point. Blessings....
Quote from: eaglesway on June 30, 2014, 08:44:07 AM
I think whatever the pigpen was to the prodigal, the LOF is, and will be to those who bow the knee in the next age.
One thing is for certain, when the pgpen had accomplished its purpose, the prodigal left it.
As a state of being I think most people fall back into it from time to time. Maybe Peter was in it between when the cock crowed and the Lord comissioned him to "feed my sheep".
Maybe he was in it again when he was consorting with the Jewish believers against the gentile believers before Paul brought Peter to his senses.
I tend to see it as something with layers, in time and out of time.
I agree with this viewpoint. When we look at all the descriptions of Gehenna and the LOF, that viewpoint does address many of the descriptions of that pig pen:
Gehenna is a
lowvalley contrasted against a
high point, which is Zion. Weeping and knashing of teeth (knashing of teeth signifies hating God, railing against him). Outer darkness (with the irony that Jesus says that men love the darkness.) New Jerusalem is the bride, everyone outside is not. Being tormented in the presence of the Lamb, not the presence of a ferocious beast, signifying to me that the torment is a result of self-action, not Jesus. The second death (to be carnally minded is death) and so on, coupled with the Romans 1 description that God's wrath is revealed as God turning man over to his own sin to "recieve in themselves the due recompense for their error."
Sin is its own punishment.
There's a scripture I read n my memory isn't good, but it states that everyone will be tested with fire. Idk if that what's ur talking about but I so believe even We would have to answer for our actions & recieve our doses of corrective punishment.
Idk if being saved = avoidance of that test because technically even as Christians we still are far from perfect, I don't think anyone here would deny that. However now knowing that Gods purpose is not to get revenge on mine or anyone imperfect state but to correct, purify & make whole, I don't fear being dipped in a warm firy bath. I'm aware my sins in this life will need to be answered too & I am not ashamed because in all my imperfection my daddy loves me anyway :)