Morality is a vice

[jbertonbounds]

1 Corinthians 10.23 - "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.

In this passage, Paul had been talking about eating food sacrificed to idols. I believe he meant that eating such food is not a sin in itself, but that it would not be wise for him to do since it could be non-beneficial, harmful, to his ministry because it would offend the folks to which he was preaching.

We can take this principle a expand on it. For example, I do not believe in bad words; however, I abstain from using expletives because it may turn people away from my teaching of UR.

I think the principle that Paul is teaching here is that there are many things that people think are wrong, but that aren't really sins.  However, it is not commensurate with our teaching others about the true gospel if we disregard the "rules" to which our audience holds.  What Paul is definitely NOT teaching is that he was free to do anything his flesh beckoned him to do.  It is understood that he was not including immoral things in his statement, "all things are lawful."

[Seth]

Paul taught about deliverance from two things simultaneously: deliverance from "motions of sin" and therefore from the Law.

Romans 7
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? (we must be dead to be freed from the Law)
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should SERVE in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

It was by the "motions of sin" that one is held in bondage to the Law. Making one's self righteous BY the Law is impossible. HOWEVER, being wedded to Christ by the Spirit, puts away the "motions of sin" and thereby releases man from the Law itself which can no longer accuse them of immorality for the simple fact that Christ causes them to stop being immoral.

This is why Paul says IF YE BE LED BY THE SPIRIT, ye are not under the Law. What is the what is the logical converse of that?

1 John 3
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work[/b]. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

That is exactly what Paul is teaching in Romans 7 and throughout all his epistles. Be born of the seed of God and you will be delivered from immorality itself. By that new birth you will be delivered from that which once RIGHTLY accused us of being sinners in your old life.

One who is dead to sin, is not under the old contract. One who is alive is alive to Christ, born by the seed of God and CANNOT abide in sin because he is born of God, by the Spirit (God's seed).

[JulieTang84]

Who is not a sinner in this room? Who would gladly never ever sin again if it were possible? Who stares into the mirror each morning ashamed at the pathetic sinner they see? No one I hope, because Father knows us from the inside out, better than we know ourselves. We are his children, He knows that we are going to mess up and He loves us any way.

To concentrate on our short-comings is to ignore the increasing love Father has given. Each of us is an imperfect vessel, yet we are loved perfectly. Not in the hope that we will never sin again; rather, that we forget sin and live life to the fullest, living and loving, spreading peace and joy and giving Father thanks in everything unceasingly.

How could we do less and focus on Father more?

Just what has been given me, I hope, this odd taken on the spirit given.

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

How could we do less and focus on Father more?

I don't believe we should do less. We are called to serve "in newness of Spirit." To bring light to darkness, to heal the sick, to deliver from bondage. That's alot of doing.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

:thumbsup:

I think what you are describing is a false morality: clean cup on the outside, dirty cup on the inside. Spirit saves us from the inside condition so that morality becomes our natural state.

Yes, it certainly was a false morality.  And so is the type of morality-vice Jock described in the OP.
This type of so-called "morality" is man-made, not of Yahweh, and is false.

[JulieTang84]

How could we do less and focus on Father more?

I don't believe we should do less. We are called to serve "in newness of Spirit." To bring light to darkness, to heal the sick, to deliver from bondage. That's alot of doing.

:HeartThrob:

And how better than to do so as shining examples of the LOVE given us. If we do this, surely the Spirit will speak for us when we need to speak. Love as we sre loved, like we are commanded.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

How could we do less and focus on Father more?

I don't believe we should do less. We are called to serve "in newness of Spirit." To bring light to darkness, to heal the sick, to deliver from bondage. That's alot of doing.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Absolutely! :thumbsup:

[Seth]

I am trying to clarify. The Galatians verse in the OP does not tell us to be free from morality itself. False morality is not morality at all. We should be bonded to morality by the Spirit. Paul is telling us to be free from the yoke of bondage to sin, which then delivers us from the Law, which rightly accused us of sin.

[Seth]

Julie, yes, not by our own power, but by Grace.  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Of course, but if sin is transgression of the Law, then why was there sin in the world before Moses? Because there is a Divine Law in Christ always from the foundation of the world. Taking away the Law of Moses does not remove the commandment to Love. Disobedience of that Law is indeed sin. I don't take the removal of the Law of Moses as that sin does not exist at all.

[Warhawk17]

I agree with you too essentially  :laugh:, except there actually are some do's and don'ts in the scriptures (Jesus said much, Paul also in Romans and Corinthians to us, the ecclesia).  Still, I'm not advocating legalism, bondage, condemnation - I'm advocating obedience, as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :)

Great point!  :thumbsup: It also becomes easier once we remember that the "do's and don'ts" are laid out because it is what the Lord knows is best for us and will make us happy. Not ways to keep us in bondage and throw us into hell if we don't obey. We should certainly use our freedom in Christ to serve and live life to the fullest. Being legalistic and remaining in bondage will make us like the Pharisees (I've been there too), and we will also be miserable and miss out on the simple pleasures and blessings in our lives. Heck, this age is depressing and oppressive enough. Being like the Pharisees will just make it worse.

[Seth]

Oh yeah, the "do" got so much simpler.

Do love eachother. That's it  :HeartThrob:

[Warhawk17]

A certain type of "morality" is definitely a vice.
You don't want to be snared by that kind of so-called morality, as I once was.
I was a Pharisee many years ago.
I judged others and condemned others. :punish:
I hated divorced people. :punish:
I hated people who "cussed." :punish:
I hated people who had "illegitimate children." :punish:
I hated people who were of other religions. :punish:
I hated anyone who didn't meet my criteria for "morality." :punish:
I thought all of these people deserved the hell they were headed for! :gimmefive:
I only loved those who loved me, and I didn't really love all of them either.
I was an alcoholic and I was sexually immoral, but I was a Christian, by golly, because I deserved to be saved! - (so I thought)

That's the kind of so-called "morality" that is a vice!
I lived by what I now call "Pharisee rules."
All the do's and dont's that the common brand of so-called Christianity gives the world to live by (mostly dont's).
The don't smoke, don't drink, don't cuss, don't, don't, don't..........just ain't the real thing - that is not of the Father.

ABSOLUTELY, we should make every effort to abstain from immorality, and those things are clearly laid out in his word and written on our hearts.  Really all that is left for us to do is submit ourselves to the Spirit's leading, and to love our God and love our neighbors with our whole hearts!  That sums it all up.

Definitely been there too, especially when I was in high school. I even took pride in the fact that I was "righteous" and didn't do things a lot of my peers did like smoke, drink, promiscuity. I didn't really outwardly boast to other people about how good I was compared to other people, but there were times where I and some other classmates gossiped about what other people were doing and looked down on certain people such as girls we labeled as "whores." Yet I still cussed, had fits of rage, and even lusted over some of the classmates I labeled as whores. I looked good on the outside, but there was a lot of crap going on inside.

I definitely had a smug sense of self righteousness and frequently credited my Catholic education growing up for giving me better morals than the lifelong public school kids. No surprise I got this attitude because the attitude runs rampant in the Catholic community that kids who are Catholic educated are smarter, more successful, and have better morals than those raised in the "godless" public schools. My parents even got some backlash from family members for enrolling us in public high school, and the parents who pay insane amounts to send their kids to the Catholic high school 30 minutes away definitely have a high and mighty attitude.

[Jock]

The flesh is a rotten to the core, dead man! There's no point in trying to dress it up and put a soiled wedding dress on it and think that the Lord will find it acceptable. It is still a corpse!

What we need is a new heart, and that has been promised us, thank God! More His work than ours.  :Peace2:

Jock.

[WhiteWings]

The flesh is a rotten to the core, dead man! There's no point in trying to dress it up and put a soiled wedding dress

God gave Adam the first layer of a wedding dress in Eden.

[Jock]

Question: Do you think that God has set us to fail in our own "goodness" and strivings of the flesh, to be righteous?


O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[WhiteWings]

Question: Do you think that God has set us to fail in our own "goodness" and strivings of the flesh, to be righteous?

I feel another "Did God create evil?" thread coming up....  :winkgrin:

My view is that God was very well aware that His creating would be very capable to mess up and enjoy the dark side. God could have created humanity as holy as Jesus was. Then the discussion shifts to free will  : winkgrin: because God wanted humanity to be free to choose hell.

My answer to your question is yes. We can discuss this at great length but for me it boils down to this: God wants all to be in heaven with Him. Yet He created mankind with so many flaws even He has a hard time counting them all :winkgrin: He could have created otherwise. Does His design choice contradict His own will. Think not.


It makes me think of:
Exod 21
33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money to the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.

:2c:

[Jock]

To concentrate on our short-comings is to ignore the increasing love Father has given. Each of us is an imperfect vessel, yet we are loved perfectly. Not in the hope that we will never sin again; rather, that we forget sin and live life to the fullest, living and loving, spreading peace and joy and giving Father thanks in everything unceasingly.

Very good, Julie. Anything good that comes out of me, is Christ. Anything else is me and ends up in dead works.

Jock.  :gimmefive:

[anna274]

Re:  Anything good that comes out of me, is Christ.

Rom 8:37-39
v 37 in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.  v 38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,  v 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love  :HeartThrob: of God, WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

John 15:13
No one has greater love :HeartThrob: than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.

Rom 5:8
But God proves His own love :HeartThrob: for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!

John 3:16
FOR GOD SO LOVED :HeartThrob: THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

[Jock]

Ded2daworld

Is this off a car bumber?    "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there."  :laugh:


Anna 274. Great verses, thanks.  :banana:

[jbertonbounds]

Ded2daworld

Is this off a car bumber?    "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there."  :laugh:


Anna 274. Great verses, thanks.  :banana:

I think it's from the bible.
Hesitations 15:23  "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there."

:laugh: :winkgrin: :laughing7: :mock:

[marie glen]

   "Love the fulfilling of the law" as has been mentioned.. and.. "Love worketh no ill"

I was thinking about this thread this morning.. how Jesus in His sermon on the mountain said "you've heard do not commit adultery? I tell you don't look to lust" one not one's mate..

and, "You've heard, do not murder? I say do not be angry without reason" (hate/dislike?)

So I was thinking "the law" (laws of Moses and the Old Testament) even if we could fulfill them, which we can't seeing we are imperfect and imperfect can't make itself perfect, and also of course the only source of Goodness is God.. "the law" isn't good enough. We must be "born again" (as we know).

We must have boldness to draw near to God.. so He rubs off on us! The more we pursue Him and spend time with Him and pray to Him (and read His word).. the better off we'll be?
peace and blessings..

[rosered]

   "Love the fulfilling of the law" as has been mentioned.. and.. "Love worketh no ill"

I was thinking about this thread this morning.. how Jesus in His sermon on the mountain said "you've heard do not commit adultery? I tell you don't look to lust" one not one's mate..

and, "You've heard, do not murder? I say do not be angry without reason" (hate/dislike?)

So I was thinking "the law" (laws of Moses and the Old Testament) even if we could fulfill them, which we can't seeing we are imperfect and imperfect can't make itself perfect, and also of course the only source of Goodness is God.. "the law" isn't good enough. We must be "born again" (as we know).

We must have boldness to draw near to God.. so He rubs off on us! The more we pursue Him and spend time with Him and pray to Him (and read His word).. the better off we'll be?
peace and blessings..

:thumbsup:   you made me think of Romans 7   with this post sis!
Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; 


Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; 


Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, 

Its seems the Lord Himself judged  sin in  the flesh   already when Christ  come  , having been sent   for this very purpose , God made a  way

Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.   

  this Spirit  being   Holy of God and the Son, Jesus Christ   we   now have a new and living way

  :girlheart:

[Lazarus Short]

This thread reminds me of what Mike Warnke said:

"It's not enough to not do the dont's - you've got to do some of the do's!"

[jbertonbounds]

This thread reminds me of what Mike Warnke said:

"It's not enough to not do the dont's - you've got to do some of the do's!"

:thumbsup: