Morality is a vice

[Jock]

Back when I was in the churches, there was a bent towards morality which could be described as bondage.
Building law on top of grace, as they tend to do, I would turn the pages of my Bible seeing that I was a horrible inadequate Christian. But they seemed to have it all together. "don't smoke, drink, cuss, spit or chew or hang around with those who do" was pretty much their modus operandi.

I know a lot of people are smitten by this but the scriptures say that I am free to be free.

Gal 5:1  In the freedom, then, with which Christ did make you free -- stand ye, and be not held fast again by a yoke of servitude

Thank Christ for not only His sacrifice but for His grace and liberty!

Jock.   :icon_jokercolor:

[Jock]

Martin Zender on liberty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICLeyq8hjho

[ded2daworld]

You forgot the Baptist with their "Lips that touch wine will never touch mine."  :Pray:

and "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there."

[JulieTang84]

Yes, there is a huge difference walking through our "Valley of the Shadow od Death" and seeing nothing but laws of constraint and death untold, to that of seeing nothing but life to be enjoyed, blue skys and happy children, etc.


We have always been free to enjoy all that Father has given us, though is spirit of common sense should always prevail, with or without man made laws

[sheila]

Colossians 2;20,21 since you diedwith Christ tothe basic principlesofthis world,why

as i8f you still belongedtoit..do you submit toit's rules.........

   DO NOT HANDLE![lepers/sick? serpents?]]........they will trample/handle serpents!..they

will lay their handsonthe sickandthey willget well  DO NOT TOUCH

   Donot taste!  they will drink poisonandnot be harmed........

   see the differencebetweenthe carnal manandthe spiritual man?

   oneisovercome by things...andonehasovercome these things....

    All things are lawful!....there is no law against the spirit!

   nowif a carnal manattempts to cast out demons[see 7 sonsof sceva] itcausesharm

but thenewman is granted authority inChrist......tothe clean all things are clean

tthe defiled all things are defiled..........

   appearance ofwisdom...self-imposed worship...falsehumility..harsh treatmentofthe body

   it is always this way.....that appearing what itisnot! tares!!!

   imitators of the appearance[satantransforming himselfintoangeloflight]........

....

[sheila]

those that say...'Lord,Lrd..did we not......."  they namethe namebutdenythe powerof the name

     ....they slip in.....feed themselves..still trying to justify themselves under the law andit's

   ordinance's....but we died...and are raisedupin Christ....BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

[Jock]

Shiela

Your posts reminded me of our Lord speaking to the Pharisees as being "whitewashed sepulchres". I used to be one at times but then I discovered that only the surface was clean, then I repented and the Lord now sees all my warts but knows I love Him.

Cheers

Jock.  :winkgrin:

[marie glen]

I have never forgotten a lovely christian lady who insisted that the wine of the psalm verse which says "God made wine to make merry the heart of man" was most definitely NOT of the fermented sort.. i.e. what we kknow of as wine, she said the old testament verse was speaking of grape juice..

But I, smart aleck that I am looked it up in the Strong's concordance and sure enough it was "fermented" - I of course didn't feel the need to argue the case, I said originally I thought it was indeed "wine" and how the Word also points out "woe to they which chase after strong drink. In the end it will bite as a serpent". I'd already said it once and left it at that.

Personally i love how the Spirit of God 'trusts' His people with the truth.. "wine to make merry the heart of man" (see, 1st recorded miracle of Jesus turning water to wine at a wedding "party" John chapter (3?) But ALSO, "woe to the one who chases strong drink. In the end it will bite like a serpent". (Strong drink/much drink/drunkards are outside the city (Presence of God) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth..)

Truth not law.

Grace  = have confidence to "draw near to the Throne of God to recieve the help we need"

As there's only one source of goodness, we NeeD to draw near to God, for this is th transforming power.. not law.. Law shows what is sin.. Grace saves, and Grace transforms.. law does neither.

"Law mixed with Grace" Paul said "is no longer grace"

Law dilutes the Good News of the POWER to save (and transform). Yes?

Law, also, pushes ppl away from loving God..
:smile: :Peace2:

[jabcat]

IMO, it's an interesting question (and I don't know all the answers to it) of "what does liberty really mean" ("all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient").  I don't believe we're under the Law (it was the taskmaster that led us to Christ), or under bondage (except there are MANY scriptures that call followers of Christ "servants/slaves" of HIM).

However each person is led to work out the specific details between themselves and the Lord, I don't believe being in the liberty of Christ means I can do whatever I want, except if I really love Him and have His Spirit in me, what I'll really want to do is please Him and be obedient.  I believe the Spirit leads us into obedience, i.e., into God's will.  And thankfully! to a willing heart that lives in a body of flesh that often fails, His grace is sufficient.

I Peter 2:16  Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

[JulieTang84]

I don't believe being in the liberty of Christ means I can do whatever I want, except if I really love Him and have His Spirit in me, what I'll really want to do is please Him and be obedient.  I believe the Spirit leads us into obedience.  And to a willing heart that lives in a body of flesh that often fails, His grace is sufficient.

I Peter 2:16  Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

Absolutely!!!  :HeartThrob: 


Thanks James

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

[Jock]

Jabcat,

I agree with you essentially but we can't read the Bible as a book of rules, do's and dont's otherwise as somebody said "law and grace is no longer grace"

I heard somebody long time ago explain liberty. A shepherd put his sheep into a new field to graze. They are free to go anywhere, eat anything, as long as they stay within earshot of the Shepherd

The other thing is that we must consider our brother is case he is stumbled by our liberty. The enemy comes to lie and steal our liberty even using the scriptures to do it. He wants to go back to the snare of making the Bible a book of rules and regulations.

Blessings

Jock. :winkgrin:




But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

[jabcat]

I agree with you too essentially  :laugh:, except there actually are some do's and don'ts in the scriptures (Jesus said much, Paul also in Romans and Corinthians to us, the ecclesia).  Still, I'm not advocating legalism, bondage, condemnation - I'm advocating obedience, as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :)

[Jock]

Yes, we shouldn't go places where the Spirit won't go. And Touche' on the do's and dont' :gimmefive:s

[jabcat]

 :Peace2:

[rosered]

I agree with you too essentially  :laugh:, except there actually are some do's and don'ts in the scriptures (Jesus said much, Paul also in Romans and Corinthians to us, the ecclesia).  Still, I'm not advocating legalism, bondage, condemnation - I'm advocating obedience, as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :)

  I love this !!   so true  the  truth is to  believe Him   is to obey 

  Believers DO as He says !!


to believe is to trust Jesus  and obey is the works  that follows  HIM


Jhn 5:34 Of course, I have no need of human witnesses, but I say these things so you might be saved. 


Jhn 5:35 John was like a burning and shining lamp, and you were excited for a while about his message. 


Jhn 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John—my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me. 
Jhn 5:37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face, 


Jhn 5:38 and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you. 
Jhn 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 
Jhn 5:40 Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.  


Jhn 5:41 "Your approval means nothing to me, 


Jhn 5:42 because I know you don't have God's love within you. 


Jhn 5:43 For I have come to you in my Father's name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them. 


Jhn 5:44 No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God. [fn] 


Jhn 5:45 "Yet it isn't I who will accuse you before the Father. Moses will accuse you! Yes, Moses, in whom you put your hopes. 


Jhn 5:46 If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. 


Jhn 5:47 But since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?" 
Jesus Christ is the perfect /complete  Spirit and Life  in God

[dajomaco]

The morally right thing to do?

People around you are full of joy and giving one another and sharing with one another
their possessions.

Is it immoral to sell a piece of property for $100,00.00 and give $90,000.00
to the church?

  Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.

[dajomaco]

Ananias not filled with the Holy Spirit.
Saw with his own eyes, the evidence of being filled with the Spirit
was to sell possessions and give the proceeds to the church.

He wanted to be a part of the move of the Holy Spirit.
His flesh, through this world's wisdom thought,
that by giving to the church he would be considered one of them.

The Holy Spirit filled the believers with a love greater than themselves.
Their own well-being was now so secure that they had no need of the things
that used to bring them security.

To fool yourself into believing that you are obedient to the cross.
Seems to be a far worse crime against the Holy Spirit.
Open rebellion is the safer way. 

I freely choose Jesus
I choose mercy.
The Holy Spirit can and will do as God pleases.

[sheila]

 those that had twohouses..sold the one andcameand lay it at thedisciplesfeet........

   itis the 'all' principle.........saying you give God Allthe fruit.........when your not......your holding

  back a portion[which is God's] for yourself.

    andthis isall the fruit..when He takes away all their sin

  whenwe don't hold allthings incommonwith ALL men...andrecognize All are savedby Grace

   norrecognize that those still at enmity withHim intheir delusion..is what we at onetime were

also...or measure outbig dosesofgrace toourselves and are stingy withHis grace to others

we turnthe House of prayer intoadenof robbers andtheives


    say the house sold is the law cvenant by which all men are condemned..and none shown

righteous.....andwe sell it..tohold all things in common with all men for the Grace

housecovenant....wouldn't the tenpercentbe us holding ontoself-righteousness..as aliar?

.....if you seesilverandgold asrighteousness under law...........throwitinthe streets for our

ownrighteousness can't deliver us............

....or this, you can'tserve God and mammon

    LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART,ALL YOUR MIND ALL YOUR STRENGTH

  AND LOVE YOUR BROTHER AS YOURSELF

   

[jbertonbounds]

Shiela

Your posts reminded me of our Lord speaking to the Pharisees as being "whitewashed sepulchres". I used to be one at times but then I discovered that only the surface was clean, then I repented and the Lord now sees all my warts but knows I love Him.

Cheers

Jock.  :winkgrin:

LIKE

I used to be a pharisee too!

[Seth]

Galatians 5
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But IF (this is a big "if" coming up) you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.  I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love,  joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law  24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited,  provoking and envying each other.

If morality is a vice, let me be so ensnared by it.

[jbertonbounds]

A certain type of "morality" is definitely a vice.
You don't want to be snared by that kind of so-called morality, as I once was.
I was a Pharisee many years ago.
I judged others and condemned others. :punish:
I hated divorced people. :punish:
I hated people who "cussed." :punish:
I hated people who had "illegitimate children." :punish:
I hated people who were of other religions. :punish:
I hated anyone who didn't meet my criteria for "morality." :punish:
I thought all of these people deserved the hell they were headed for! :gimmefive:
I only loved those who loved me, and I didn't really love all of them either.
I was an alcoholic and I was sexually immoral, but I was a Christian, by golly, because I deserved to be saved! - (so I thought)

That's the kind of so-called "morality" that is a vice!
I lived by what I now call "Pharisee rules."
All the do's and dont's that the common brand of so-called Christianity gives the world to live by (mostly dont's).
The don't smoke, don't drink, don't cuss, don't, don't, don't..........just ain't the real thing - that is not of the Father.

ABSOLUTELY, we should make every effort to abstain from immorality, and those things are clearly laid out in his word and written on our hearts.  Really all that is left for us to do is submit ourselves to the Spirit's leading, and to love our God and love our neighbors with our whole hearts!  That sums it all up.

[dajomaco]

Galatians 5
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But IF (this is a big "if" coming up) you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.  I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love,  joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law  24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited,  provoking and envying each other.

If morality is a vice, let me be so ensnared by it.

The flesh can produce : sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.


The Spirit and only the Spirit can produce is love,  joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.

Morality says train your flesh not to have fits of rage.
Not having a fit of rage is not the equivalent of gentleness.

[Seth]

Morality says train your flesh not to have fits of rage.
Not having a fit of rage is not the equivalent of gentleness.

Alot of Christians think that Paul taught freedom from the Law means freedom from morality. Paul actually taught that freedom from SIN (immorality) means freedom from Law.  The Law cannot rightly accuse you of being immoral if you are not. That is why he says IF ye be led by the Spirit ye are free from the Law. Since the Law held man in bondage to sin, being healed of sin means freedom from Law by default. If they are not led by the Spirit? Then the law will accuse them rightly of being exactly what they are.


1 Tim 1
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

[Seth]

A certain type of "morality" is definitely a vice.
You don't want to be snared by that kind of so-called morality, as I once was.
I was a Pharisee many years ago.
I judged others and condemned others. :punish:
I hated divorced people. :punish:
I hated people who "cussed." :punish:
I hated people who had "illegitimate children." :punish:
I hated people who were of other religions. :punish:
I hated anyone who didn't meet my criteria for "morality." :punish:
I thought all of these people deserved the hell they were headed for! :gimmefive:
I only loved those who loved me, and I didn't really love all of them either.
I was an alcoholic and I was sexually immoral, but I was a Christian, by golly, because I deserved to be saved! - (so I thought)

That's the kind of so-called "morality" that is a vice!
I lived by what I now call "Pharisee rules."
All the do's and dont's that the common brand of so-called Christianity gives the world to live by (mostly dont's).
The don't smoke, don't drink, don't cuss, don't, don't, don't..........just ain't the real thing - that is not of the Father.

ABSOLUTELY, we should make every effort to abstain from immorality, and those things are clearly laid out in his word and written on our hearts.  Really all that is left for us to do is submit ourselves to the Spirit's leading, and to love our God and love our neighbors with our whole hearts!  That sums it all up.

:thumbsup:

I think what you are describing is a false morality: clean cup on the outside, dirty cup on the inside. Spirit saves us from the inside condition so that morality becomes our natural state.