Back when I was in the churches, there was a bent towards morality which could be described as bondage.
Building law on top of grace, as they tend to do, I would turn the pages of my Bible seeing that I was a horrible inadequate Christian. But they seemed to have it all together. "don't smoke, drink, cuss, spit or chew or hang around with those who do" was pretty much their modus operandi.
I know a lot of people are smitten by this but the scriptures say that I am free to be free.
Gal 5:1 In the freedom, then, with which Christ did make you free -- stand ye, and be not held fast again by a yoke of servitude
Thank Christ for not only His sacrifice but for His grace and liberty!
Jock. :icon_jokercolor:
Martin Zender on liberty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICLeyq8hjho
You forgot the Baptist with their "Lips that touch wine will never touch mine." :Pray:
and "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there."
Yes, there is a huge difference walking through our "Valley of the Shadow od Death" and seeing nothing but laws of constraint and death untold, to that of seeing nothing but life to be enjoyed, blue skys and happy children, etc.
We have always been free to enjoy all that Father has given us, though is spirit of common sense should always prevail, with or without man made laws
Colossians 2;20,21 since you diedwith Christ tothe basic principlesofthis world,why
as i8f you still belongedtoit..do you submit toit's rules.........
DO NOT HANDLE![lepers/sick? serpents?]]........they will trample/handle serpents!..they
will lay their handsonthe sickandthey willget well DO NOT TOUCH
Donot taste! they will drink poisonandnot be harmed........
see the differencebetweenthe carnal manandthe spiritual man?
oneisovercome by things...andonehasovercome these things....
All things are lawful!....there is no law against the spirit!
nowif a carnal manattempts to cast out demons[see 7 sonsof sceva] itcausesharm
but thenewman is granted authority inChrist......tothe clean all things are clean
tthe defiled all things are defiled..........
appearance ofwisdom...self-imposed worship...falsehumility..harsh treatmentofthe body
it is always this way.....that appearing what itisnot! tares!!!
imitators of the appearance[satantransforming himselfintoangeloflight]........
....
those that say...'Lord,Lrd..did we not......." they namethe namebutdenythe powerof the name
....they slip in.....feed themselves..still trying to justify themselves under the law andit's
ordinance's....but we died...and are raisedupin Christ....BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
Shiela
Your posts reminded me of our Lord speaking to the Pharisees as being "whitewashed sepulchres". I used to be one at times but then I discovered that only the surface was clean, then I repented and the Lord now sees all my warts but knows I love Him.
Cheers
Jock. :winkgrin:
I have never forgotten a lovely christian lady who insisted that the wine of the psalm verse which says "God made wine to make merry the heart of man" was most definitely NOT of the fermented sort.. i.e. what we kknow of as wine, she said the old testament verse was speaking of grape juice..
But I, smart aleck that I am looked it up in the Strong's concordance and sure enough it was "fermented" - I of course didn't feel the need to argue the case, I said originally I thought it was indeed "wine" and how the Word also points out "woe to they which chase after strong drink. In the end it will bite as a serpent". I'd already said it once and left it at that.
Personally i love how the Spirit of God 'trusts' His people with the truth.. "wine to make merry the heart of man" (see, 1st recorded miracle of Jesus turning water to wine at a wedding "party" John chapter (3?) But ALSO, "woe to the one who chases strong drink. In the end it will bite like a serpent". (Strong drink/much drink/drunkards are outside the city (Presence of God) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth..)
Truth not law.
Grace = have confidence to "draw near to the Throne of God to recieve the help we need"
As there's only one source of goodness, we NeeD to draw near to God, for this is th transforming power.. not law.. Law shows what is sin.. Grace saves, and Grace transforms.. law does neither.
"Law mixed with Grace" Paul said "is no longer grace"
Law dilutes the Good News of the POWER to save (and transform). Yes?
Law, also, pushes ppl away from loving God..
:smile: :Peace2:
IMO, it's an interesting question (and I don't know all the answers to it) of "what does liberty really mean" ("all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient"). I don't believe we're under the Law (it was the taskmaster that led us to Christ), or under bondage (except there are MANY scriptures that call followers of Christ "servants/slaves" of HIM).
However each person is led to work out the specific details between themselves and the Lord, I don't believe being in the liberty of Christ means I can do whatever I want, except if I really love Him and have His Spirit in me, what I'll really want to do is please Him and be obedient. I believe the Spirit leads us into obedience, i.e., into God's will. And thankfully! to a willing heart that lives in a body of flesh that often fails, His grace is sufficient.
I Peter 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2013, 08:50:23 PM
I don't believe being in the liberty of Christ means I can do whatever I want, except if I really love Him and have His Spirit in me, what I'll really want to do is please Him and be obedient. I believe the Spirit leads us into obedience. And to a willing heart that lives in a body of flesh that often fails, His grace is sufficient.
I Peter 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
Absolutely!!! :HeartThrob:
Thanks James
:thumbsup:
Jabcat,
I agree with you essentially but we can't read the Bible as a book of rules, do's and dont's otherwise as somebody said "law and grace is no longer grace"
I heard somebody long time ago explain liberty. A shepherd put his sheep into a new field to graze. They are free to go anywhere, eat anything, as long as they stay within earshot of the Shepherd
The other thing is that we must consider our brother is case he is stumbled by our liberty. The enemy comes to lie and steal our liberty even using the scriptures to do it. He wants to go back to the snare of making the Bible a book of rules and regulations.
Blessings
Jock. :winkgrin:
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
I agree with you too essentially :laugh:, except there actually are some do's and don'ts in the scriptures (Jesus said much, Paul also in Romans and Corinthians to us, the ecclesia). Still, I'm not advocating legalism, bondage, condemnation - I'm advocating obedience, as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :)
Yes, we shouldn't go places where the Spirit won't go. And Touche' on the do's and dont' :gimmefive:s
:Peace2:
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2013, 09:28:20 PM
I agree with you too essentially :laugh:, except there actually are some do's and don'ts in the scriptures (Jesus said much, Paul also in Romans and Corinthians to us, the ecclesia). Still, I'm not advocating legalism, bondage, condemnation - I'm advocating obedience, as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :)
I love this !! so true the truth is to believe Him is to
obey Believers DO as He says !!
to believe is to trust Jesus and obey is the works that follows HIM
Jhn 5:34 Of course, I have no need of human witnesses, but I say these things so you might be saved.
Jhn 5:35 John was like a burning and shining lamp, and you were excited for a while about his message.
Jhn 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John—my teachings and my miracles.
The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me. Jhn 5:37 And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face,
Jhn 5:38
and you do not have his message in your hearts, because you do not believe me—the one he sent to you. Jhn 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Jhn 5:40
Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life. Jhn 5:41 "Your approval means nothing to me,
Jhn 5:42 because I know you don't have God's love within you.
Jhn 5:43 For I have come to you in my Father's name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them.
Jhn 5:44 No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from the one who alone is God. [fn]
Jhn 5:45 "Yet it isn't I who will accuse you before the Father. Moses will accuse you! Yes, Moses, in whom you put your hopes.
Jhn 5:46 If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.
Jhn 5:47 But since you don't believe what he wrote
, how will you believe what I say?"
Jesus Christ is the perfect /complete Spirit and Life in God
The morally right thing to do?
People around you are full of joy and giving one another and sharing with one another
their possessions.
Is it immoral to sell a piece of property for $100,00.00 and give $90,000.00
to the church?
Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
Ananias not filled with the Holy Spirit.
Saw with his own eyes, the evidence of being filled with the Spirit
was to sell possessions and give the proceeds to the church.
He wanted to be a part of the move of the Holy Spirit.
His flesh, through this world's wisdom thought,
that by giving to the church he would be considered one of them.
The Holy Spirit filled the believers with a love greater than themselves.
Their own well-being was now so secure that they had no need of the things
that used to bring them security.
To fool yourself into believing that you are obedient to the cross.
Seems to be a far worse crime against the Holy Spirit.
Open rebellion is the safer way.
I freely choose Jesus
I choose mercy.
The Holy Spirit can and will do as God pleases.
those that had twohouses..sold the one andcameand lay it at thedisciplesfeet........
itis the 'all' principle.........saying you give God Allthe fruit.........when your not......your holding
back a portion[which is God's] for yourself.
andthis isall the fruit..when He takes away all their sin
whenwe don't hold allthings incommonwith ALL men...andrecognize All are savedby Grace
norrecognize that those still at enmity withHim intheir delusion..is what we at onetime were
also...or measure outbig dosesofgrace toourselves and are stingy withHis grace to others
we turnthe House of prayer intoadenof robbers andtheives
say the house sold is the law cvenant by which all men are condemned..and none shown
righteous.....andwe sell it..tohold all things in common with all men for the Grace
housecovenant....wouldn't the tenpercentbe us holding ontoself-righteousness..as aliar?
.....if you seesilverandgold asrighteousness under law...........throwitinthe streets for our
ownrighteousness can't deliver us............
....or this, you can'tserve God and mammon
LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART,ALL YOUR MIND ALL YOUR STRENGTH
AND LOVE YOUR BROTHER AS YOURSELF
Quote from: Jock on October 23, 2013, 07:33:03 PM
Shiela
Your posts reminded me of our Lord speaking to the Pharisees as being "whitewashed sepulchres". I used to be one at times but then I discovered that only the surface was clean, then I repented and the Lord now sees all my warts but knows I love Him.
Cheers
Jock. :winkgrin:
LIKEI used to be a pharisee too!
Galatians 5
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But IF (this is a big "if" coming up) you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
If morality is a vice, let me be so ensnared by it.
A certain type of "morality" is definitely a vice.
You don't want to be snared by that kind of so-called morality, as I once was.
I was a Pharisee many years ago.
I judged others and condemned others. :punish:
I hated divorced people. :punish:
I hated people who "cussed." :punish:
I hated people who had "illegitimate children." :punish:
I hated people who were of other religions. :punish:
I hated anyone who didn't meet my criteria for "morality." :punish:
I thought all of these people deserved the hell they were headed for! :gimmefive:
I only loved those who loved me, and I didn't really love all of them either.
I was an alcoholic and I was sexually immoral, but I was a Christian, by golly, because I deserved to be saved! - (so I thought)
That's the kind of so-called "morality" that is a vice!
I lived by what I now call "Pharisee rules."
All the do's and dont's that the common brand of so-called Christianity gives the world to live by (mostly dont's).
The don't smoke, don't drink, don't cuss, don't, don't, don't..........just ain't the real thing - that is not of the Father.
ABSOLUTELY, we should make every effort to abstain from immorality, and those things are clearly laid out in his word and written on our hearts. Really all that is left for us to do is submit ourselves to the Spirit's leading, and to love our God and love our neighbors with our whole hearts! That sums it all up.
Quote from: Seth on October 23, 2013, 10:59:00 PM
Galatians 5
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But IF (this is a big "if" coming up) you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
If morality is a vice, let me be so ensnared by it.
The flesh can produce : sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
The Spirit and only the Spirit can produce is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
Morality says train your flesh not to have fits of rage.
Not having a fit of rage is not the equivalent of gentleness.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 23, 2013, 11:26:42 PM
Morality says train your flesh not to have fits of rage.
Not having a fit of rage is not the equivalent of gentleness.
Alot of Christians think that Paul taught freedom from the Law means freedom from morality. Paul actually taught that freedom from SIN (immorality) means freedom from Law. The Law cannot rightly accuse you of being immoral if you are not. That is why he says
IF ye be led by the Spirit ye are free from the Law. Since the Law held man in bondage to sin, being healed of sin means freedom from Law by default. If they are not led by the Spirit? Then the law will accuse them rightly of being exactly what they are.
1 Tim 1
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9Knowing this,
that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on October 23, 2013, 11:25:16 PM
A certain type of "morality" is definitely a vice.
You don't want to be snared by that kind of so-called morality, as I once was.
I was a Pharisee many years ago.
I judged others and condemned others. :punish:
I hated divorced people. :punish:
I hated people who "cussed." :punish:
I hated people who had "illegitimate children." :punish:
I hated people who were of other religions. :punish:
I hated anyone who didn't meet my criteria for "morality." :punish:
I thought all of these people deserved the hell they were headed for! :gimmefive:
I only loved those who loved me, and I didn't really love all of them either.
I was an alcoholic and I was sexually immoral, but I was a Christian, by golly, because I deserved to be saved! - (so I thought)
That's the kind of so-called "morality" that is a vice!
I lived by what I now call "Pharisee rules."
All the do's and dont's that the common brand of so-called Christianity gives the world to live by (mostly dont's).
The don't smoke, don't drink, don't cuss, don't, don't, don't..........just ain't the real thing - that is not of the Father.
ABSOLUTELY, we should make every effort to abstain from immorality, and those things are clearly laid out in his word and written on our hearts. Really all that is left for us to do is submit ourselves to the Spirit's leading, and to love our God and love our neighbors with our whole hearts! That sums it all up.
:thumbsup:
I think what you are describing is a false morality: clean cup on the outside, dirty cup on the inside. Spirit saves us from the inside condition so that morality becomes our natural state.
1 Corinthians 10.23 - "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.
In this passage, Paul had been talking about eating food sacrificed to idols. I believe he meant that eating such food is not a sin in itself, but that it would not be wise for him to do since it could be non-beneficial, harmful, to his ministry because it would offend the folks to which he was preaching.
We can take this principle a expand on it. For example, I do not believe in bad words; however, I abstain from using expletives because it may turn people away from my teaching of UR.
I think the principle that Paul is teaching here is that there are many things that people think are wrong, but that aren't really sins. However, it is not commensurate with our teaching others about the true gospel if we disregard the "rules" to which our audience holds. What Paul is definitely NOT teaching is that he was free to do anything his flesh beckoned him to do. It is understood that he was not including immoral things in his statement, "all things are lawful."
Paul taught about deliverance from two things simultaneously: deliverance from "motions of sin" and therefore from the Law.
Romans 7
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? (we must be dead to be freed from the Law)
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should SERVE in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
It was by the "motions of sin" that one is held in bondage to the Law. Making one's self righteous BY the Law is impossible. HOWEVER, being wedded to Christ by the Spirit, puts away the "motions of sin" and thereby releases man from the Law itself which can no longer accuse them of immorality for the simple fact that Christ causes them to stop being immoral.
This is why Paul says IF YE BE LED BY THE SPIRIT, ye are not under the Law. What is the what is the logical converse of that?
1 John 3
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work[/b]. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
That is exactly what Paul is teaching in Romans 7 and throughout all his epistles. Be born of the seed of God and you will be delivered from immorality itself. By that new birth you will be delivered from that which once RIGHTLY accused us of being sinners in your old life.
One who is dead to sin, is not under the old contract. One who is alive is alive to Christ, born by the seed of God and CANNOT abide in sin because he is born of God, by the Spirit (God's seed).
Who is not a sinner in this room? Who would gladly never ever sin again if it were possible? Who stares into the mirror each morning ashamed at the pathetic sinner they see? No one I hope, because Father knows us from the inside out, better than we know ourselves. We are his children, He knows that we are going to mess up and He loves us any way.
To concentrate on our short-comings is to ignore the increasing love Father has given. Each of us is an imperfect vessel, yet we are loved perfectly. Not in the hope that we will never sin again; rather, that we forget sin and live life to the fullest, living and loving, spreading peace and joy and giving Father thanks in everything unceasingly.
How could we do less and focus on Father more?
Just what has been given me, I hope, this odd taken on the spirit given.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
How could we do less and focus on Father more?
I don't believe we should do less. We are called to serve "in newness of Spirit." To bring light to darkness, to heal the sick, to deliver from bondage. That's alot of doing.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on October 23, 2013, 11:35:18 PM
:thumbsup:
I think what you are describing is a false morality: clean cup on the outside, dirty cup on the inside. Spirit saves us from the inside condition so that morality becomes our natural state.
Yes, it certainly was a false morality. And so is the type of morality-vice Jock described in the OP.
This type of so-called "morality" is man-made, not of Yahweh, and is false.
Quote from: Seth on October 24, 2013, 12:30:42 AM
How could we do less and focus on Father more?
I don't believe we should do less. We are called to serve "in newness of Spirit." To bring light to darkness, to heal the sick, to deliver from bondage. That's alot of doing.
:HeartThrob:
And how better than to do so as shining examples of the LOVE given us. If we do this, surely the Spirit will speak for us when we need to speak. Love as we sre loved, like we are commanded.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on October 24, 2013, 12:30:42 AM
How could we do less and focus on Father more?
I don't believe we should do less. We are called to serve "in newness of Spirit." To bring light to darkness, to heal the sick, to deliver from bondage. That's alot of doing.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Absolutely! :thumbsup:
I am trying to clarify. The Galatians verse in the OP does not tell us to be free from morality itself. False morality is not morality at all. We should be bonded to morality by the Spirit. Paul is telling us to be free from the yoke of bondage to sin, which then delivers us from the Law, which rightly accused us of sin.
Julie, yes, not by our own power, but by Grace. :HeartThrob:
Of course, but if sin is transgression of the Law, then why was there sin in the world before Moses? Because there is a Divine Law in Christ always from the foundation of the world. Taking away the Law of Moses does not remove the commandment to Love. Disobedience of that Law is indeed sin. I don't take the removal of the Law of Moses as that sin does not exist at all.
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2013, 09:28:20 PM
I agree with you too essentially :laugh:, except there actually are some do's and don'ts in the scriptures (Jesus said much, Paul also in Romans and Corinthians to us, the ecclesia). Still, I'm not advocating legalism, bondage, condemnation - I'm advocating obedience, as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. :)
Great point! :thumbsup: It also becomes easier once we remember that the "do's and don'ts" are laid out because it is what the Lord knows is best for us and will make us happy. Not ways to keep us in bondage and throw us into hell if we don't obey. We should certainly use our freedom in Christ to serve and live life to the fullest. Being legalistic and remaining in bondage will make us like the Pharisees (I've been there too), and we will also be miserable and miss out on the simple pleasures and blessings in our lives. Heck, this age is depressing and oppressive enough. Being like the Pharisees will just make it worse.
Oh yeah, the "do" got so much simpler.
Do love eachother. That's it :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on October 23, 2013, 11:25:16 PM
A certain type of "morality" is definitely a vice.
You don't want to be snared by that kind of so-called morality, as I once was.
I was a Pharisee many years ago.
I judged others and condemned others. :punish:
I hated divorced people. :punish:
I hated people who "cussed." :punish:
I hated people who had "illegitimate children." :punish:
I hated people who were of other religions. :punish:
I hated anyone who didn't meet my criteria for "morality." :punish:
I thought all of these people deserved the hell they were headed for! :gimmefive:
I only loved those who loved me, and I didn't really love all of them either.
I was an alcoholic and I was sexually immoral, but I was a Christian, by golly, because I deserved to be saved! - (so I thought)
That's the kind of so-called "morality" that is a vice!
I lived by what I now call "Pharisee rules."
All the do's and dont's that the common brand of so-called Christianity gives the world to live by (mostly dont's).
The don't smoke, don't drink, don't cuss, don't, don't, don't..........just ain't the real thing - that is not of the Father.
ABSOLUTELY, we should make every effort to abstain from immorality, and those things are clearly laid out in his word and written on our hearts. Really all that is left for us to do is submit ourselves to the Spirit's leading, and to love our God and love our neighbors with our whole hearts! That sums it all up.
Definitely been there too, especially when I was in high school. I even took pride in the fact that I was "righteous" and didn't do things a lot of my peers did like smoke, drink, promiscuity. I didn't really outwardly boast to other people about how good I was compared to other people, but there were times where I and some other classmates gossiped about what other people were doing and looked down on certain people such as girls we labeled as "whores." Yet I still cussed, had fits of rage, and even lusted over some of the classmates I labeled as whores. I looked good on the outside, but there was a lot of crap going on inside.
I definitely had a smug sense of self righteousness and frequently credited my Catholic education growing up for giving me better morals than the lifelong public school kids. No surprise I got this attitude because the attitude runs rampant in the Catholic community that kids who are Catholic educated are smarter, more successful, and have better morals than those raised in the "godless" public schools. My parents even got some backlash from family members for enrolling us in public high school, and the parents who pay insane amounts to send their kids to the Catholic high school 30 minutes away definitely have a high and mighty attitude.
The flesh is a rotten to the core, dead man! There's no point in trying to dress it up and put a soiled wedding dress on it and think that the Lord will find it acceptable. It is still a corpse!
What we need is a new heart, and that has been promised us, thank God! More His work than ours. :Peace2:
Jock.
Quote from: Jock on October 24, 2013, 10:10:42 AM
The flesh is a rotten to the core, dead man! There's no point in trying to dress it up and put a soiled wedding dress
God gave Adam the first layer of a wedding dress in Eden.
Question: Do you think that God has set us to fail in our own "goodness" and strivings of the flesh, to be righteous?
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Quote from: Jock on October 24, 2013, 11:40:27 AMQuestion: Do you think that God has set us to fail in our own "goodness" and strivings of the flesh, to be righteous?
I feel another "Did God create evil?" thread coming up.... :winkgrin:
My view is that God was very well aware that His creating would be very capable to mess up and enjoy the dark side. God could have created humanity as holy as Jesus was. Then the discussion shifts to free will : winkgrin: because God wanted humanity to be free to choose hell.
My answer to your question is yes. We can discuss this at great length but for me it boils down to this: God wants all to be in heaven with Him. Yet He created mankind with so many flaws even He has a hard time counting them all :winkgrin: He could have created otherwise. Does His design choice contradict His own will. Think not.
It makes me think of:
Exod 21
33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money to the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.
:2c:
To concentrate on our short-comings is to ignore the increasing love Father has given. Each of us is an imperfect vessel, yet we are loved perfectly. Not in the hope that we will never sin again; rather, that we forget sin and live life to the fullest, living and loving, spreading peace and joy and giving Father thanks in everything unceasingly.
Very good, Julie. Anything good that comes out of me, is Christ. Anything else is me and ends up in dead works.
Jock. :gimmefive:
Re: Anything good that comes out of me, is Christ.
Rom 8:37-39
v 37 in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us. v 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, v 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love :HeartThrob: of God, WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.
John 15:13
No one has greater love :HeartThrob: than this, that someone would lay down his life for his friends.
Rom 5:8
But God proves His own love :HeartThrob: for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
John 3:16
FOR GOD SO LOVED :HeartThrob: THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.
Ded2daworld
Is this off a car bumber? "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there." :laugh:
Anna 274. Great verses, thanks. :banana:
Quote from: Jock on October 24, 2013, 04:15:24 PM
Ded2daworld
Is this off a car bumber? "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there." :laugh:
Anna 274. Great verses, thanks. :banana:
I think it's from the bible.
Hesitations 15:23 "Smoking doesn't send you to hell, but it sure smells like you've been there." :laugh: :winkgrin: :laughing7: :mock:
"Love the fulfilling of the law" as has been mentioned.. and.. "Love worketh no ill"
I was thinking about this thread this morning.. how Jesus in His sermon on the mountain said "you've heard do not commit adultery? I tell you don't look to lust" one not one's mate..
and, "You've heard, do not murder? I say do not be angry without reason" (hate/dislike?)
So I was thinking "the law" (laws of Moses and the Old Testament) even if we could fulfill them, which we can't seeing we are imperfect and imperfect can't make itself perfect, and also of course the only source of Goodness is God.. "the law" isn't good enough. We must be "born again" (as we know).
We must have boldness to draw near to God.. so He rubs off on us! The more we pursue Him and spend time with Him and pray to Him (and read His word).. the better off we'll be?
peace and blessings..
Quote from: marie glen on October 25, 2013, 01:30:34 AM
"Love the fulfilling of the law" as has been mentioned.. and.. "Love worketh no ill"
I was thinking about this thread this morning.. how Jesus in His sermon on the mountain said "you've heard do not commit adultery? I tell you don't look to lust" one not one's mate..
and, "You've heard, do not murder? I say do not be angry without reason" (hate/dislike?)
So I was thinking "the law" (laws of Moses and the Old Testament) even if we could fulfill them, which we can't seeing we are imperfect and imperfect can't make itself perfect, and also of course the only source of Goodness is God.. "the law" isn't good enough. We must be "born again" (as we know).
We must have boldness to draw near to God.. so He rubs off on us! The more we pursue Him and spend time with Him and pray to Him (and read His word).. the better off we'll be?
peace and blessings..
:thumbsup: you made me think of Romans 7 with this post sis!
Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
Rom 8:3
for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, Its seems the Lord Himself judged sin in the flesh already when Christ come , having been sent for this very purpose , God made a way
Rom 8:4
that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. this Spirit being Holy of God and the Son, Jesus Christ we now have a new and living way
:girlheart:
This thread reminds me of what Mike Warnke said:
"It's not enough to not do the dont's - you've got to do some of the do's!"
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 27, 2013, 11:21:19 PM
This thread reminds me of what Mike Warnke said:
"It's not enough to not do the dont's - you've got to do some of the do's!"
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on October 25, 2013, 01:55:27 AM
Quote from: marie glen on October 25, 2013, 01:30:34 AM
"Love the fulfilling of the law" as has been mentioned.. and.. "Love worketh no ill"
I was thinking about this thread this morning.. how Jesus in His sermon on the mountain said "you've heard do not commit adultery? I tell you don't look to lust" one not one's mate..
and, "You've heard, do not murder? I say do not be angry without reason" (hate/dislike?)
So I was thinking "the law" (laws of Moses and the Old Testament) even if we could fulfill them, which we can't seeing we are imperfect and imperfect can't make itself perfect, and also of course the only source of Goodness is God.. "the law" isn't good enough. We must be "born again" (as we know).
We must have boldness to draw near to God.. so He rubs off on us! The more we pursue Him and spend time with Him and pray to Him (and read His word).. the better off we'll be?
peace and blessings..
:thumbsup: you made me think of Romans 7 with this post sis!
Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Its seems the Lord Himself judged sin in the flesh already when Christ come , having been sent for this very purpose , God made a way
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
this Spirit being Holy of God and the Son, Jesus Christ we now have a new and living way
:girlheart:
Yes, and it makes me think of Romans 2
Romans 2
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles,
who do not have the law, do
BY NATURE things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
And...
2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as
His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be
partakers of the divine nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Quote from: Seth on October 28, 2013, 05:11:40 PM
partakers of the divine nature
Glory! and Amen!!! :dsunny: How wonderful and awesome! and happy are we! "Spirit of holiness and beauty from ashes"
"what the law was not able to do"
Quote from: rosered on October 25, 2013, 01:55:27 AM
Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Its seems the Lord Himself judged sin in the flesh already when Christ come , having been sent for this very purpose , God made a way
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
this Spirit being Holy of God and the Son, Jesus Christ we now have a new and living way
:girlheart:
"we now have a new and living way"! Not the way of "license" as Paul said he was accused of! ("God forbid"!!!)
"ye have heard do not murder..? but.." --- showing it is "Christ" who "is the fulfilling of the law"
"we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.." "not of works"/the law "lest any should boast"
"That He will be glorified and magnified" and not any of us.. If I'm in a hurry and want to tie my little grand daughter's shoe, and she keeps trying to do it (but she can't) all she does is get her hands in my way.. that's how I think it is when law is mixed with grace.. sort of like "standing in the door, and not going in and blocking the way of anyone else going in"
...not of us, lest anyone should boast.. but "By His Spirit.."
"Humble thyself to walk with the LORD thy God.." Micah 4:6
Great thread guys and gals!! :dsunny:
P.S - as if any of us could earn communion with God...!
the Law says I am not 'good' enough.. but grace says I am forgiven and my standing is (not because I'm good, or good enough) but because Jesus paid my debt and the judge has set me free.. now I am to live and walk in Jesus.. I've been bought.. no longer a slave to sin, but now a slave to righteousness by grace.. not a tho I have already attained..but it's a gift.. hence my heart's love, I can draw near to God to recieve the help I need.. not hide like Adam and Eve did.. or think I am good enough and don't need to walk in the Spirit.. haha.. as if..
at the same time, not license as with the gnostic Nicolaitans.. which thing the Lord hates.. narrow way.. with two major big ditches on either side which the ditches lack POWER to transform, the ditch of the law, and the ditch of license.. Both dead ends..
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2013, 07:26:39 PM
P.S - as if any of us could earn communion with God...!
Amen ! to the all above
Thanks be to God for one and all !! :HeartThrob:
Blessings Seth and Marie
JBB
You said: "I think what you are describing is a false morality: clean cup on the outside, dirty cup on the inside. Spirit saves us from the inside condition so that morality becomes our natural state"
I say Yea and Amen.
Quote from: Jock on October 28, 2013, 07:53:50 PM
JBB
You said: "I think what you are describing is a false morality: clean cup on the outside, dirty cup on the inside. Spirit saves us from the inside condition so that morality becomes our natural state"
I say Yea and Amen.
I would love to take credit for that great statement, but it was Seth who said that. Thanks anyway. :winkgrin:
Immorality and morality =mortality.
Immortality is not part of the above equation.
Seth and Marie
Great posts!
Thanks
Jock. :banana:
Quote from: Jock on October 29, 2013, 09:06:21 AM
Seth and Marie
Great posts!
Thanks
Jock. :banana:
Thanks, Jock. That banana has to be the best thing the internet ever gave mankind.
Thanks, Jock. That banana has to be the best thing the internet ever gave mankind.
HaHaHa. I agree.