SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

#204 – A MESSAGE FROM GARY AMIRAULT (owner of the TENTMAKER website)
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://lovewins.us/
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/

"Hell is a myth! Jesus Christ saves all mankind. That is the growing view of Bible scholars, translators and Bible publishers. Hell is leaving the pages of many Bible translations.

Bible scholars and church historians are acknowledging that early Christians were taught by Jesus and the apostles that ALL mankind would ultimately be saved. Discover how the heathen concept of Hell crept into the church and then on to the pages of many Bible translations.

Tentmaker Ministries website contains hundreds of articles and books explaining how this happened and its horrible effect on mankind. We also make available many other resources for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry.

Experience your heavenly Father's unfailing love for you. Be set free from the fear that you or a loved one may be eternally damned to Hell."

Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

204

[marie glen]

 :Gclap:  :cheerleader:

[rodgertutt]

:Gclap:  :cheerleader:

:iagree:

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

An excellent website expounding Christian Biblical Universal Salvation

[marie glen]

That looks like an awesome site!! [ http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm ]
The very first page ya get to sets so much straight! right off the bat.. Love it! Now I'm going back to read more! :HeartThrob:

:ty: for posting that for us all

so far so good!~! I love how they set things straight that UR is NOT universalim or whatnot.. comparing the two.. excellent! - http://richardwaynegarganta.com/IsThisUniversalism.htm

..and I like this on the intro page: Quote: "Most people listen to preachers and basically say, "Tell me what to believe."  To get past traditions of men, dogmas and evolved error you will have to be diligent and study to get past it.  I have supplied you with the best of what I have found.  Don't expect to agree with or understand everything - just read and study prayerfully while keeping an open mind.  Your prison of "status quo" doctrine is about to be rattled!"

ALL BIBLE! (i say & onLy way to go) :gthumbsup:

[rodgertutt]

That looks like an awesome site!! [ http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm ]
The very first page ya get to sets so much straight! right off the bat.. Love it! Now I'm going back to read more! :HeartThrob:

:ty: for posting that for us all 

I thought someone might like that site. I'm glad I shared it.   :dsunny:

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #1

Some day everyone is going to learn that it was not even possible for them TO NOT start trusting in Jesus as their Saviour when they did start trusting in Him.

The reason we know that everyone will eventually be saved is because God "will have all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).

Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants" if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11

Job 23:13 "But He stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)

So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.

His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.

[marie glen]

Amen!! It is all without a doubt!

I think my brethren here at tentmaker forum, have misunderstood some of the things I post, and is the only reason I mention the following. :smile:

We can hear people of the world in mistaken perception, blame God, or rather,actually, hate God because of life as we presently know it, with all its sufferings and even horrors (wars, etc). But all things are PERFECT! Because it is, all, His powerful (very powerful) truth drama which is writing upon EVERY heart, mind and psyche` the full knowing and understanding of good from evil, which (btw, and imo) is also life(Him!) from death. And learning beyond the shadow of a doubt that God is all in all. Therefor this life and all history has been, and is, "perfect"! If, He was creating a universe where all will, would, could, go their own way, and each creature get to 'choose' good from evil -- what we would have, is what we do have.

It is all in God's will and choice. But, God is doing a very serious and important work. One we should not deny, for then we work against Him!

I'm a staunch literalist :smile: because I believe God is working out very important purpose.. from Genesis to Revelation.

hope you don't mind my trying to clarify here.. Perhaps I should repost this as a new discussion..
  :hiya:

[rodgertutt]

Thank you for your input Marie.  :thumbsup:

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #2

Why I believe that the Bible teaches that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's,  The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

Dean Hough wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

[marie glen]

Very informative and enlightening!

Quote: "kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) ...Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better"...!! :smile:

I, for one, will be checking out these other links! :mthumbsup:

...and what keeps repeating in my brain is, "age lasting fire - created for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41)

[rodgertutt]

...and what keeps repeating in my brain is, "age lasting fire - created for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41)

Marie, you might enjoy reading what a few teachers of universal reconciliation wrote.

Personally I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.
Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).
Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16). (end quote)

"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote)
Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.

"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html 

THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.
'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." (end quote)

AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued. (end quote)

ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?
My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all." (end quote)

CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.
Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the lustre of the universe." (end quote)

Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.
In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.
As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself." (end quote)

COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion.
The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints." (end quote)

THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
"The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.
Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.
But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe. (end quote)

[marie glen]

..they won't get any argument from me! if someone reads the Bible a lot, I really don't know how they continue to miss it..!

I like this one best! :laugh2:

"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html 

I've seen his name before!
and I really like this:

CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
"I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator. " (nothing) "left to mar the lustre of the universe." (end quote)

And,

Personally I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.

Amen!!
At Matthew 25:41, Jesus said, the "..age lasting fire created for the devil and his angels.." - I'm assuming this is God's will.. created for the devil and his angels.. and who can thwart God's will? (twofold, one being to cleanse satan)

I don't believe it is in God's plan for any human to actually go to the age lasting LOF.
..."created for the devil and his angels"

To borrow some words from: CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor,
"I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish" (and hatred/blame of God) "as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator" during the long day of 'judgment'/review, after having experienced being resurrected, that is to say, before the end of that 'day' at which time is said "anyone not in the book of life" (still not believing) "will go to the LOF"... I don't believe it is in God's plan for any human to actually go to the age lasting LOF. Although I suppose there could possibly be some few very stubborn hold outs! But is this God's will? And can God's will be turned aside? made void? not done?

Both "the beast" and the "false prophet" thrown into the LOF (rev 19:20) at Christ's return are not persons but are active 'institutions' (namely, rev 13:1-10, not 11-18; and the false teaching,the "falling away"). Also, the goats and sheep at the end of the age are nations at armegeddon, Mt 25:31,32,41,45) Satan, the adversary is thrown to the age lasting LOF before the Great White Throne Judgment/Day of Review

Great articles, Rogertutt! :mthumbsup:

[marie glen]

FROM, http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html - 1st link from the post: "FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #2"

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -

QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST." -- Dr. Edwin Abbott
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..."The ages are often referred to in Scripture, and the study of the exact conditions and purposes of each of them are not fanciful; but it is rather the only adequate foundation for any true knowledge of the Bible." -- Dr. Lewis S. Chafer
----------------------------------------------------

"The word under examination" (aion) "is the foundation stone of that evil structure" --REV. JOHN WESLEY HANSON, A.M. [ http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml ]  "age lasting"  :gsmile:


"that evil structure" = hell, (which blasphemes God every day!)

[rodgertutt]

I had lost track of the quote by Abbott.
Thanks for posting it again Marie.
I shall put it in a document.

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #3

GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is a basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control, some sooner, the rest later.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement009.html
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
James Coram

[eaglesway]

IMO, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is doing in the universe, which is drawing every will into submission to Christ by the glory of His love.

In my opinion free will vs sovereign will is a very unfortunate place to set forth as the fundamental difference between UR and ET, as I have won "free will" believers to UR by simply showing them the translation issues and re-defining for them the meaning of, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- by the scriptures(ehp1:9-11, col 1:16-21, romans 8 and 1 cor 15, etc.).

I believe God is ultimately sovereign, but that He has set in place a much more complex, mysterious interaction between our will and His, than either of the extreme views allows.

[rodgertutt]

IMO, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is doing in the universe, which is drawing every will into submission to Christ by the glory of His love.

In my opinion free will vs sovereign will is a very unfortunate place to set forth as the fundamental difference between UR and ET, as I have won "free will" believers to UR by simply showing them the translation issues and re-defining for them the meaning of, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- by the scriptures(ehp1:9-11, col 1:16-21, romans 8 and 1 cor 15, etc.).

I believe God is ultimately sovereign, but that He has set in place a much more complex, mysterious interaction between our will and His, than either of the extreme views allows.

Thanks for your input eaglesway.

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #4

ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST ETERNAL TORMENT BELIEF

ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."

Christ's apparent mission: To save from eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also are smart enough to properly cooperate with Him before they die.

CALVINIST ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."

Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone suffer eternal torment without any say in the matter, except the few He rescues by His irresistible grace.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."

Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).

I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.

Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"

My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will include the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.

[eaglesway]

The error of religion is categorization. my experience of calvinism is that calvinists think everyone is either calvinist or armenian. Of course this is just the limit of their experience blinding them to the wide range of the variety of positions and degrees and measures of belief about the will of God and the will of man and how they interact- between the two extremes- that honest, seeking, honorable christian disciples may hold.

the extension of this calvinistic type of approach would be that anyone who comes out of a calvinist or preterist background believes that their understanding of how the soveriegnity of God works MUST BE the foundation for why UR makes sense.

This is simply presumption, and a presumption upon which a UR understanding need not be built. A presumptio that should not be forced at the frnt end of teaching UR beyond the degree of the excellent example given in the preceding post


"Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will."

As a proponent of stewardship and a measure of free will- i believe that God in his sovereignty ordained that His love is the "will" that WILL win all men to Himself through the sacrifice of Christ. I have declared the "restoration of all things" and the "salvation of all" to Christians of various backgrounds for years and had much success, being neither Calvinistic or Armenian. :o)

Faith in faith is in vain. The faith that God gives is faith in Jesus Christ Himself, and in His death, burial ad resurrection.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[rodgertutt]

Thank you again for your input eaglesway.

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #5

A.E. KNOCH

One of the great Christian Biblical Universalist of the last century was A.E. Knoch.

My attitude towards the frequent threats of believers in eternal torment is summed up beautifully by his response.

An eternal torment critic said "Mr. Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."

In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:

"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace. It is only natural for one who thinks Him capable of tormenting His own creatures eternally, to seek to follow His example, and torture His servants here and now. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so.

The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.

Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.

So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. We recall with joy and satisfaction the great truth that, by God's grace, it is impossible for you to enter into condemnation, no matter how much you may offend Him (Rom.8:1) and the still greater truth that we are saved for grace (Eph.2:8). While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.

We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart." A.E. Knoch

[marie glen]

IMO, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is doing in the universe, which is drawing every will into submission to Christ by the glory of His love.

In my opinion free will vs sovereign will is a very unfortunate place to set forth as the fundamental difference between UR and ET, as I have won "free will" believers to UR by simply showing them the translation issues and re-defining for them the meaning of, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"- by the scriptures(ehp1:9-11, col 1:16-21, romans 8 and 1 cor 15, etc.).

I believe God is ultimately sovereign, but that He has set in place a much more complex, mysterious interaction between our will and His, than either of the extreme views allows.

Absolutely, we do have to rightly divide the Word, and have discernment. I 'talk' a lot to nonbelievers, and many times it concerns talking about the world and the shape it's in, so of course that takes a different discernment, as of course, even though HE is in complete control and all things are perfect because all is the working out of His will and HIS PERFECT ultimate BLUEPRINT. But folks of the world think HE is like a cosmic joker enjoying a good time laughing at sufferings, war, etc! Talk about blasphemous doctrine or ideas! Of course it's just crazy and as highly illogical as thinking FOR EVEN ONE MOMENT -- that we choose God! rofl!! There's ONLY ONE source of goodness! And it ain't us! :laughing7:  :Peace2: :smile:

I have told people, since God is Life itself He suffers and experiences ALL sufferings which ever occur!! Now why would HE put Himself through all that? Logic tells me because He has a wonderful blueprint in mind and working out, and nothing can stay His hand.

"..age lasting fire, created for the devil and his angels.."
that too is God's will --> "created for the devil and his angels" not man. I suppose there will be some stubborn hold outs.. perhaps some of the crowd in ancient days who thought it was good religion to lay their babes alive in fires of baal or molech.. BUT, as Roger posted :smile: "even if He casts some into the lake of fire which is the second death it will include the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it."

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit.." John 15:16

"Let NO ONE say when he is tempted, "I am tempted BY God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone" James 1:13

"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" - reaLLy does say it aLL!
  :hiya:

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #6

AION -- AIONIOS

In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God's plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words ("ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world" to translate this one word.

And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as "ages."

Talk about confusion compounded!

Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God's truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!

Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God's glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionion" is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man's image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

[marie glen]

I didn't know that about the seven translations of aion in the 1st 3 chapters of Ephesians alone! As "ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world"!

I'll never forget the 1st time I looked up and investigated the word "forever"! I could not find it in either of my lexicons! I thought "did they make a mistake? and forget this word??" Til (dah!:)) I thought to look for "ever" and LO & BeHoLd! there it was "age"!! "Aion - properly, an age"..

There's nothing wrong with God's Word only Man's interpretation and some few translations of a few KEY words! :mthumbsup: :smile:

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #7

ALL IN ALL – A.E. Knoch

A.E. Knoch's book ALL IN ALL
Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of A.E Knoch's ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments he used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.                 

Regarding the book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch. In spite of the claim that there are contradictions in it, and in spite of "cult-buster" Don Hewey's other attempts to discredit it, (arguments to which Richard Condon has responded), ALL IN ALL remains, in my opinion, one of the best of all the many books that I have read in support of the Bible teaching universal transformation.

Don Hewey is a believer in the inspiration of the King James Version. When he accuses A.E. Knoch of "contradicting the Bible," in many cases what he really means is that A.E. Knoch contradicts the KJV, because the Concordant Translation does not rely on the Received Text from which the KJV was translated. Don Hewey therefore also attacks the RSV, the NIV, and other modern translations. For this reason much of what Don writes just doesn't make any sense.

As far as Knoch calling the life that Lazarus will be raised to as it being eonian and unending, it is both. Lazarus will have unending life and that life will allow him to live through the oncoming eons which is called '"eonian life."

But even if Don Hewey's criticisms had any merit, (and Richard Condon proves they don't), they would still not detract from the fact that this book proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

Richard Condon's detailed rebuttal of Don Hewey's criticisms of ALL IN ALL can be read at
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm
They are the very same arguments he used against A. C. Thomas and E. H. Lake.                 

ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/
Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.

The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ's cross. (Col.1-20).

Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God's purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). "In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Col.1:19,20)

The terms translated "forever" and "everlasting" and "never" are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.

Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God's grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."

ALL IN ALL can be read on the internet here

Copy and paste the following url into the server address bar or click on
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

[eaglesway]

I didn't know that about the seven translations of aion in the 1st 3 chapters of Ephesians alone! As "ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world"!

I'll never forget the 1st time I looked up and investigated the word "forever"! I could not find it in either of my lexicons! I thought "did they make a mistake? and forget this word??" Til (dah!:)) I thought to look for "ever" and LO & BeHoLd! there it was "age"!! "Aion - properly, an age"..

There's nothing wrong with God's Word only Man's interpretation and some few translations of a few KEY words! :mthumbsup: :smile:

Aion comes from Olam- a time of unknown duration measured by the subject it is attached too.

Olam was used to describe the length of a life (you shall be his servant olam- as long as yu live)

Olam was used to describe a time far back into antiquity (they were the men of old(men olam))

Olam was used to describe the eternal God (God is great olam- forever)

Olam was used to desribe the duration of hills (the olam hills)

and many other things- always an indefinite adjective defined by the subject it is attached to.......

My point? :o)   it is in the Hebrew that the issue of "forever" comes clearest.

My example? It is not really aionian kolassis( for an age)

It is 'olam' kolassis(corrective tribulation)- meaning, however long it takes till the purpose is accomplished. "You shall not be released until you have payed the last penny". What is the last penny? Bowing the knee, confessing with the mouth- "Jesus is Lord"- from an position of adoration and enlightenment.

Many stripes? Few stripes? How many stripes will it take?  Till you relent and return to the Father of spirits :o)


Where else shall you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion?(Isaiah 1)

[rodgertutt]

I didn't know that about the seven translations of aion in the 1st 3 chapters of Ephesians alone! As "ages," "course," "end," "eternal," and "world"!

I'll never forget the 1st time I looked up and investigated the word "forever"! I could not find it in either of my lexicons! I thought "did they make a mistake? and forget this word??" Til (dah!:)) I thought to look for "ever" and LO & BeHoLd! there it was "age"!! "Aion - properly, an age"..

There's nothing wrong with God's Word only Man's interpretation and some few translations of a few KEY words! :mthumbsup: :smile:

Aion comes from Olam- a time of unknown duration measured by the subject it is attached too.

Olam was used to describe the length of a life (you shall be his servant olam- as long as yu live)

Olam was used to describe a time far back into antiquity (they were the men of old(men olam))

Olam was used to describe the eternal God (God is great olam- forever)

Olam was used to desribe the duration of hills (the olam hills)

and many other things- always an indefinite adjective defined by the subject it is attached to.......

My point? :o)   it is in the Hebrew that the issue of "forever" comes clearest.

My example? It is not really aionian kolassis( for an age)

It is 'olam' kolassis(corrective tribulation)- meaning, however long it takes till the purpose is accomplished. "You shall not be released until you have payed the last penny". What is the last penny? Bowing the knee, confessing with the mouth- "Jesus is Lord"- from an position of adoration and enlightenment.

Many stripes? Few stripes? How many stripes will it take?  Till you relent and return to the Father of spirits :o)

Where else shall you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion?(Isaiah 1)

eaglesway, what do you think of this link concerning the word olam?
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY – G.T. Stevenson 
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/

[marie glen]

Very interesting! "however long it takes till the purpose is accomplished. "You shall not be released until you have payed the last penny".. "Many stripes? Few stripes? How many stripes will it take?"

And also in the articles about "Olam" it's intriguing that associated with it is the meaning of "hidden", "not disclosed or revealed".. I've come to think of 'Judgment' Day as an 'age' but we only see the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.. and the 2nd advent of Messiah Jesus as having 3 peaks.. (1)the last trumpet/1st resurrection/His return, (2)the 2nd resurrection, and (3)when "ALL things are made new and God Himself comes to Earth to live with (Tabernacle with) man. So "olam" in its association with "hidden" makes me think of this stretch of time which we are actually told not a lot about..

It's comforting to (now) see that the time in the cleansing, purifying LOF is not likely of a definite time or duration! As all cases I'm sure will be very individual.. What a wise God we have to do with!!

[eaglesway]

Yes, that is how I see it too, thru the glass darkly of course. Three peaks or three streams of the second advent.

the LOF, i my opinion, is being suspended in overwhelming light, in the presence of God( it is written the devil and his angels will be punished "in the presence of God ad His holy angels").

God is light. Light is fire to darkness. The fire is God's all consuming love. God is love. Our God is a consuming fire. Every man will be salted with fire, every sacrifice seasoned with salt.

Every thing hidden in darkness will be brought to light.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.

He that hides his transgression will not prosper, he that confesses and forsakes his sin will obtain mercy.

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrigteousness.

John preached and they were baptized in the Jordan, "confessing their sins."

Every one will "come clean" eventually- every man will salted with fire. Some now, some in the ages to come.Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, every heart be broken/pierced, every spirit made contrite.

The blood will cover all, reconcile all, cleanse all.

The veil of Adam's guilt and shame(hiding from the face/presence) will be gone from all, God will be all in all, all will be forgiven- all set free....GLORY!

[rodgertutt]

FROM THE DOCUMENTS OF RODGER TUTT #8

ARGUMENTS

I believe that the Bible teaches that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.

I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 74 years old now.

People who can love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will not be interested in the following information
Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

But people who cannot love an "eternal torment" or "annihilationist" god will discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.

Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Also Google up TENTMAKER, and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/