I believe

[Molly]

"None can keep alive his own soul"ps22:29

Psalm 86:2
Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.

[CHB]

Example, (and I get in trouble with this) "that man is 3 fold...body-soul-spirit" when the Bible is very clear Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
it is dust made flesh, and by breath(spirit) becomes a living soul. And I do understand the "change" in the meaning of soul going into the NT. But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Anyway, it seems no one is led to look into this, it seems that the building on the 3 fold man is the only building thats gonna happen.

Micah, you said  "But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except.  Micah, I want to understand and learn so, explain why you said you can no longer except that man has a living soul. Are you saying that man IS a living soul, {soul and body are the same} not that he has one?  Please explain. I think we are in agreement with this.

Here is how I see this now: God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul, before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul. I am always open to suggestions though.

CHB

How is body and soul the same? It reads in Gen.2:7 that man became a lilving soul. Now as far as there being a dead soul, dont you have to be alive before you are dead? Actually a lving soul is a breathing creature, which includes all the beast of the field, cattle, fish, fowl, it is being alive.

Micah, Molly, what do you think a soul is?  Don't think I worded my last post too good. I am trying to figure it all out. Be patient God isn't finished with me yet.

Here is an article that I agree with.  http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess018a.htm

Haven't really studied this subject a lot but Eby seems to think that we existed before we became human, doesn't that mean that Adam was dead when God breathed into him?

CHB

[thinktank]

Preserve, which suggests that it is held in safe keeping when it dies. I believe that, God shall not forget, the parts we left behind when our inner man reaches the pearly gates and in time will raise them from the dead.

[Molly]

I see our spirit as that vehicle which gives us connection to God.  It is also the vehicle which through God gives life to our soul and body.

CHB  I tend to agree with you because that verse of God breathing into Adam is so similar to this one:

After he had said this, he breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

--John 20:22

I believe that Adam had the HS which is why he was not deceived.

The resurrected Christ is a quickening spirit, able to give life [to quicken] the spirit and the soul of others.  To be quickened in spirit is the meaning of born from above [born again].

The manifested sons of God will be quickening spirits, like Christ--which will also cause their own body and soul to be immortally alive, kept alive by the quickening spirit.

16The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;
--Psa 104:16

[CHB]

Molly, what do you think our soul is? You mentioned the spirit but not the soul.

Sorry Micah, maybe you would rather talk about something else?  I thought since you mentioned that soul was one of the subjects you disagreed with that maybe we could work through it? I am open for correction on any of this. I would like to understand this subject more. If you can give me something to work with I would appreciate it. Please tell me what you think the soul is?

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Hairy-tick guess. Soul is teh interface between body and spirit. Soul possibly is the great fixed guld/divide.


Interesting article: http://www.contendingforthefaith.com/responses/bible-answer-man/appendix/are-soul-spirit-same.html

[Molly]

First, let's look at a verse that tells us body and soul are separate--two different things.

Mathew 10:28

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Isn't that telling me that men can kill my body but they cannot kill my soul?  Doesn't that mean that my soul can survive the death of my body?

This next verse says God can separate our soul from our spirit.  So, our soul and our spirit are two different things.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.




This verse says that God has a soul and spirit and that he can give us His spirit.

Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.


Here the apostle prays that all 3 parts of us--spirit, soul, and body--be sanctified and preserved blameless.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


"spirit"

G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.


"soul"

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


"body"
G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

[jabcat]

Interesting points Molly.  I'd like to check later what the Christian Bible translation says re: the soul, spirit, and body, what terminology they use in an extremely literal translation.  (I'd guess 'sentient being' is used for soul, which would likely mean the same thing.  But I'm not sure - don't have my translation with me right now.)

Tony, I lifted this from your article.  Pretty direct information;


The Human Soul

Not only does man possess a spirit which enables him to function in the spiritual realm; he also possesses a soul which is the organ of his self-consciousness. The soul is the seat of the human personality. The ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. The intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul. The three main functions of the soul are the will (Job 7:15), the mind (Lam. 3:20, RSV), and the emotion (2 Sam. 5:8; Deut. 6:5). The will is the instrument for making decisions and choices. The second function of the soul is the mind, the instrument for thinking. It is in this part of the soul that man reasons and has knowledge (Prov. 2:10). The third function of the soul is the emotion. This is the instrument of likes and dislikes. Through the emotions we are able to express love or hatred, joyfulness, anger, sadness, or happiness. A shortage in this area will render us insensitive. By a careful study of the Bible we cannot help but be impressed that these three primary functions of the personality belong to the soul.

Vital to Christian Experience

This matter of distinguishing the spirit from the soul is not just something of academic or doctrinal interests. It is vital to our Christian experience. .... Even serving the Lord must be done in and with our spirit (Rom. 1:9). Many today are satisfied simply to find an open door to serve the Lord, but Paul was regulated rather by the rest in his spirit (2 Cor. 2:12-13).

If you are a Christian, your spirit has been made alive by the Spirit (John 3:6), and today Jesus Christ is with your spirit (2 Tim. 4:22). There is not one verse in the whole Bible which says that your soul was born again or that Christ today is in your soul. Neither is there a single verse which says that we should worship God with our soul (although many Christians try it). But there is a verse which says that if we are going to worship God, we must worship Him in spirit (John 4:24).

contendingforthefaith.com

[micah7:9]

Molly, what do you think our soul is? You mentioned the spirit but not the soul.

Sorry Micah, maybe you would rather talk about something else?  I thought since you mentioned that soul was one of the subjects you disagreed with that maybe we could work through it? I am open for correction on any of this. I would like to understand this subject more. If you can give me something to work with I would appreciate it. Please tell me what you think the soul is?

CHB

Man IS a living soul, a person or living creature is a soul, how many souls died in that fire. The Christian Bible uses the word "sentient" (to preceive by the senses) for soul, which I believe is better for me. Now I do well understand how the word soul is used in the NT to expain what ego,self,appitite,heart, mind, senses, but it is the person who is the soul. Without a body and breath there is no soul.
"Haven't really studied this subject a lot but Eby seems to think that we existed before we became human, doesn't that mean that Adam was dead when God breathed into him?"
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

[thinktank]

If you are a Christian, your spirit has been made alive by the Spirit (John 3:6), and today Jesus Christ is with your spirit (2 Tim. 4:22). There is not one verse in the whole Bible which says that your soul was born again or that Christ today is in your soul. Neither is there a single verse which says that we should worship God with our soul (although many Christians try it). But there is a verse which says that if we are going to worship God, we must worship Him in spirit (John 4:24).

contendingforthefaith.com

jabcat




There is a verse which says the soul magnifies the lord.

Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

This is after Mary is inspired by the Holy spirit.


I see the soul as a product of the spirit. The Spirit leads and commands, while the soul is the womb to be nourished and to grow up on the words we have feed it. Our soul is an entity that has developed over our entire life, so there are in fact parts of your soul that operate, that your not even aware of. Some people might say, your' in touch with your inner child etc, I see this to mean that there is a part of our soul that still remembers what it is to be a child.

In fact if I borrow that Adam/ Eve souls analogy, we can see this verse

Ephesians 5:29
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

The wife being the soul reverences the husband which is the spirit, and of course for the husband to love his own soul, just as much as he loves himself(The spirit man)
[/quote]

[thinktank]

Molly, what do you think our soul is? You mentioned the spirit but not the soul.

Sorry Micah, maybe you would rather talk about something else?  I thought since you mentioned that soul was one of the subjects you disagreed with that maybe we could work through it? I am open for correction on any of this. I would like to understand this subject more. If you can give me something to work with I would appreciate it. Please tell me what you think the soul is?

CHB

Man IS a living soul, a person or living creature is a soul, how many souls died in that fire. The Christian Bible uses the word "sentient" (to preceive by the senses) for soul, which I believe is better for me. Now I do well understand how the word soul is used in the NT to expain what ego,self,appitite,heart, mind, senses, but it is the person who is the soul. Without a body and breath there is no soul.
"Haven't really studied this subject a lot but Eby seems to think that we existed before we became human, doesn't that mean that Adam was dead when God breathed into him?"
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Interesting. The first man Adam became a soul, while the second Adam Jesus, becomes resurected and becomes a life giving spirit poured out on all flesh.

[WhiteWings]

Interesting points Molly.  I'd like to check later what the Christian Bible translation says re: the soul, spirit, and body, what terminology they use in an extremely literal translation.  (I'd guess 'sentient being' is used for soul, which would likely mean the same thing.  But I'm not sure - don't have my translation with me right now.)

Mat 12:18 ...My sentient being is delighted! I will place My Spirit upon Him....
Note the caps that point to divinity. Spirit and spirit i not the same in TCB

I think 1 Thes 5:23 is the most clear verse of alll Molly listed.

Now may the God of peace Himself purify you+ completely throughout your+ whole being; and may your+ whole being in all its parts (spirit, sentient being, and body) be kept blameless at the Presense of our Master Yesu (the Anoited One) [at the beginning of the Last Age]

Again watche the caps.

[....] = translator added commentary

[WhiteWings]

Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Not according to this verse:

^ACVEcclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

[CHB]

Hi jabcat,

From reading your post, it sounds like the soul is hard to distinguish from the spirit?

Here are a few verses that speak of the soul. What I get from them is, the soul can die, can be without knowledge. You can satisfy it with water. Can feel sorrow, plus many other things.

(Psalms 33:19-20) To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
Verse 20 Our soul waiteth for the Lord.
(Psalms 116:8) For you hath delivered my soul from death.
(Prov. 19:2) Also that the soul be without knowledge.
(Prov. 25:25 As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.
(Jer. 20:13) he hath delivered the soul of the poor
(Jer. 31:12) Their soul shall be as a watered garden.
(Ezek. 18:4) all souls are mine.
(Hab. 2:10) thou hast sinned against thy soul.
(Mark 26:38) my soul is exceeding sorrowful.
(Luke21:19) in your patience possess ye your soul.

(Acts 4:32) of one heart and soul.
Does the above verse mean that the heart and soul are two different things?

(1Thess. 5:23) soul and body be preserved.
(James 5:20) shall save a soul from death.
(1Peter 2:11) abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.

(Rom. 13:1) Let every soul be subject to the higher powers.
Could our soul be our minds?

(1Thess. 5:23) soul and body be preserved
(Heb 6:19) Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul.
(Heb. 13:17)Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls.

(James 5:20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death.
Is this talking about seperation from God/spiritual death?

(3John 2) Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Can a soul prosper apart from the body? How? Maybe my mind would be in good shape but the body is not?

(1Peter 4:19) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing.
(Ezek. 3:19) Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; BUT THOU HAST DELIVERED THY SOUL.
(Acts 15:24) WE HAVE HEARD THAT CERTAIN WHICH WENT OUT FROM US HAVE TROUBLED YOU WITH WORDS, SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS.

CHB

[micah7:9]

Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Not according to this verse:

^ACVEcclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Not according to what?  The dust returns to the earth and the breath returns to the one who gave it.

[micah7:9]

SOUL H5315  nephesh  From H5314; properly a breathing creature  H5314  to breathe

LIVING H2416 chay  From H2421; alive; H2421  to live

Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.


Lev 17:11  ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood:     forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315

[WhiteWings]

Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Not according to this verse:

^ACVEcclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Not according to what?  The dust returns to the earth and the breath returns to the one who gave it.

? Seems pretty clear to me.
Eby says we pre-existed as a spirit.
You tried to refute Eby with  ICo 15:45  --> I
Then I showed you a very clear verse of pre-existance. Simply because it's impossible to return to someplace you never have been before.

If the spirit didn't pre-exist then the correct word would have "goes" instead of "returns"
:2c:

[micah7:9]

Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Not according to this verse:

^ACVEcclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Not according to what?  The dust returns to the earth and the breath returns to the one who gave it.

? Seems pretty clear to me.
Eby says we pre-existed as a spirit.
You tried to refute Eby with  ICo 15:45  --> I
Then I showed you a very clear verse of pre-existance. Simply because it's impossible to return to someplace you never have been before.

If the spirit didn't pre-exist then the correct word would have "goes" instead of "returns"
:2c:

As I said, then Paul reported incorrectly. I believe that you undertstand the word spirit in Ecc. as something more than it is. Gen. 2:7 said He breathed the breath of life......that is what returns or goes back to the one who gave it.

[thinktank]

I agree with micah on this one, that the spirit is this verse = breath, that returns to the one who gave IT

[CHB]

SOUL H5315  nephesh  From H5314; properly a breathing creature  H5314  to breathe

LIVING H2416 chay  From H2421; alive; H2421  to live

Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.


Lev 17:11  ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood:     forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315

Hi Micah,

So, are you saying that life is our soul? If that is true is it reasonable to say that our breath is our spirit and our body is flesh?

CHB

[jabcat]

Hi jabcat,

From reading your post, it sounds like the soul is hard to distinguish from the spirit?

Here are a few verses that speak of the soul. What I get from them is, the soul can die, can be without knowledge. You can satisfy it with water. Can feel sorrow, plus many other things.

Hi C.  What I posted was a quote from the link Tony posted.  I see it as saying the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God".  Whereas, the spirit is a deeper level, something placed within us that can involve an interaction with God that is "beyond" our own efforts - i.e., God working through  us, as opposed to us working "for" God.

It's that place that I personally need to function at, not struggling with my own thoughts and emotions to "please" Him, but being more of a vessel, a conduit, which He can flow through.  I'm seldom walking in the spirit in that manner, but when I do, it [He] "works".

[jabcat]

SOUL H5315  nephesh  From H5314; properly a breathing creature  H5314  to breathe

LIVING H2416 chay  From H2421; alive; H2421  to live

Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.


Lev 17:11  ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood:     forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315

Hi Micah,

So, are you saying that life is our soul? If that is true is it reasonable to say that our breath is our spirit and our body is flesh?

CHB

I'm not sure the spirit and soul is interchangeable (I don't believe they are).  As Molly posted scrips earlier, they show the separation of spirit, soul, and body - 3 things, perhaps not interchangeable.The link Tony gave addresses this in detail.  It was educational for me to read.

It makes me think, "so what was Jesus saying when He said 'who is able to destroy your soul in Gehenna' "...  Was He talking about 'life', or was He talking about the temporary/earthly part of us that contains our emotions, tendencies, personality (subconscious), or both.   

Whichever, it doesn't  mean what mainstream teaches it to mean, i.e., "you're going to hell for eternity".   :2c:

[micah7:9]

SOUL H5315  nephesh  From H5314; properly a breathing creature  H5314  to breathe

LIVING H2416 chay  From H2421; alive; H2421  to live

Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.


Lev 17:11  ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood:     forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315

Hi Micah,

So, are you saying that life is our soul? If that is true is it reasonable to say that our breath is our spirit and our body is flesh?

CHB

I understand it as the Bible says. As I reason spirit and breath are the same, unless it is speaking of The Spirit Gen.1:2 that I recieve as SPIRIT. Heb 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living."
I understand this as the Father of breaths/spirits G4151 G4154
Im different I will say that, but the way I now, understand it the body/flesh/dust when it received the breath of life/spirit and man/adam became a living soul, that combination of body and breath ignited the appitities, self, ego, senses. The NT calls  appitities, self, ego, senses the soul. I do not.

[CHB]

Hi jabcat,

From reading your post, it sounds like the soul is hard to distinguish from the spirit?

Here are a few verses that speak of the soul. What I get from them is, the soul can die, can be without knowledge. You can satisfy it with water. Can feel sorrow, plus many other things.

Hi C.  What I posted was a quote from the link Tony posted.  I see it as saying the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God".  Whereas, the spirit is a deeper level, something placed within us that can involve an interaction with God that is "beyond" our own efforts - i.e., God working through  us, as opposed to us working "for" God.

It's that place that I personally need to function at, not struggling with my own thoughts and emotions to "please" Him, but being more of a vessel, a conduit, which He can flow through.  I'm seldom walking in the spirit in that manner, but when I do, it [He] "works".

Hi jabcat,

You said, " the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God".

Do our feelings, tendencies, personalities, die?

(Psalms 33:19-20) To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
Hab. 2:10) thou hast sinned against thy soul.

How do we sin against our feelings, personalities, and so forth?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The soul is as water in a cistern, a container, but the water does not flow out of it, the cistern contains it. The Spirit, on the other hand, comes and troubles the water so to speak, until like a river, it overflows it's banks.

Not a coincidence there was river under the temple, that went under the INNER court part = out of your belly (word means, INNER MOST being/soul) shall FLOW rivers of living water.

The thing about water is, when you add two sources together, they become indisquishable from one another. So it is with our soul when knitted to Him, over time they are to become indisquishable from one another also.

This is why it is said, one was a living soul (or a soul that had life), and one was a life-GIVING Spirit. One must receive, and one gives, just as one (woman) must receive seed, and one (man) give it, for there to be new life brought forth.

A cistern that is broken refers to the vessel of man no longer being a vehicle for the expression of His Spirit (because non-moving water becomes stagnant and a breeding ground for undesirable things) and so like pottery, is broken and cast out into the potter's field. God's Spirit will not tarry (wait on man to move with Him) with man always. Blessings....