I believe.....
Gal 2:20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
But trying not to be offensive or out of line, I came on this forum because I recieved the Tentmaker teaching and ministry of Gary. There are other sites that are aquainted with Tentmaker, I enjoy them all. Still this is the only one that I found that had a forum, I wanted to learn and grow. You all may consider me a weirdo with some of my questions and responses, and that is okay, I really dont mind, but I want you to know that a good many of the responses and the teachings that just seem to emit things that have turned me farther from wanting to go on.
I have a 40 year term thus far learning and studying His Wonderfull Word, falling at times, getting up, and going forward, slipping and giving up for a time, still He for His reasons always drew me back, I keep seeking the nugget or treasure He has for me. I know that all of us here believe that All will be reconciled, All will be saved, still, I say this with a boggled mind and hurt, this site has stolen much of my Joy, caused me to wonder just how far from the last move of God most have come. If much of what I have read on this site is all there is to go forward with, maybe I should just get out of the race.
What do you all think?
:cloud9: This site is like a buffet. Some people like fish, others prefer chicken.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 14, 2011, 08:11:47 AMWhat do you all think?
I don't think I completely understand what you're saying, could you be more specific about the things that have stolen your joy and what you mean by getting "out of the race"? I am sorry you feel this way, it sounds an unhappy place to be.
For myself, I find most of what I read fascinating, but I don't read everything here as I don't have the time, and I understand probably less than half of what I read. Sometimes this is due to the immense scholarship of the writers, which I don't have. Other times it is the one-liner posts that appear to me to be non sequiturs and have me thinking - "Eh???"
Quote from: Cardinal on May 14, 2011, 05:46:32 PM
:cloud9: This site is like a buffet. Some people like fish, others prefer chicken.
Agreed. Thankfully I like both chicken and fish. :)
I see all sorts, many different instruments in God's orchestra...playing different parts to one melody. For me to approach a trumpet, and ask him to quiet himself, or to ask a flute to sound more like a trumpet...would be overstepping my bounds. I am here to contribute where I can, absorb and learn. I appreciate most of the styles and approaches on this board. You have believers like Nathan who absolutely stretch me and force me to look into the spiritual meaning of life and scripture. You have WW, who really challenges my depth of knowledge and making me look at topics I would never look at if he didn't post here. Jab is the balance bringing a well rounded view of topics...I could go on and on. I appreciate all of you. And I find this site to be a breath of fresh air, and I believe God uses it to minister to my spirit. :2c:
"This site is like a buffet. Some people like fish, others prefer chicken." :cloud9:
Well Im here to state that I desire beef. Maybe thats my obstcale no beef. :sigh:
Plenty of beef on this ET siite (http://www.beefeatergrill.co.uk/beefeater.html)
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 14, 2011, 11:36:11 PM
"This site is like a buffet. Some people like fish, others prefer chicken." :cloud9:
Well Im here to state that I desire beef. Maybe thats my obstcale no beef. :sigh:
What's your beef, then, micah?
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 14, 2011, 11:48:00 PM
Plenty of beef on this ET siite (http://www.beefeatergrill.co.uk/beefeater.html)
O you are quite the funny man there WW :laughing7:
Quote from: Miriam on May 15, 2011, 12:05:20 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 14, 2011, 11:36:11 PM
"This site is like a buffet. Some people like fish, others prefer chicken." :cloud9:
Well Im here to state that I desire beef. Maybe thats my obstcale no beef. :sigh:
What's your beef, then, micah?
Thats just it there aint no beef :sigh:
Well Im here to state that I desire beef. Maybe thats my obstcale no beef. :sigh:
Getting out of the race, what does it mean? I mean quitting, stop running. I seemed to be "out of wind," He led me to know that Spirit that gives Life(Jo. 6:63) I remember way back last year I was asked by a brother after some discussion, what happeded to Jesus' physical body when He ascended, was is ate by jackels along side the road? I am still there questioning what it is that we must begin to know, we/man think physically, we/man think of a physical body, we think of the physical brick wall. We/man need that physical site, its a rock and we know it! Thats why I believe I stumble over what I know IS, thats a rock! But Jesus said Mat 17:20 And, he, saith unto them—Because of your little faith. For, verily, I say unto you—If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say to this mountain, remove hence yonder; and it shall be removed, and, nothing, shall be impossible to you.
We/man just seem to be looking at the physical and not realizing that we/believers are spirit! Yes we are physical and thinking like wise and we will remain so until we believe, have faith, and KNOW that what we/believers and have faith in SPIRITUAL, that is how He will work the work in us. We must begin to KNOW that we are born again, BORN FROM SPIRIT, we are above all this physical and literal, for we are working in the spirit, but we sure as heck dont look like it. So, I believe I will just go back to the Sun- Wed. religious socials, sit there and read The Word while the person up front goes on about how its all physical and when we all get to heaven, and well...you know.
Getting out of the race, what does it mean? I mean quitting, stop running. I seemed to be "out of wind,"
Micah,
Define beef.
My number stuff obviously is no beef.
Because you didn't find beef on this forum I must conclude the stuff Taffy and Nathan post is no beef either.
Cardinal's (slightly) different angle is no beef either.
Did WillieH with his 5 verses in every line he posted presented beef?
Etc
Consider this....
Perhaps there is prime beef on the menu on daily basis.
It's just that are let to believe McDonald's hamburger are beef and because of that you classify prime beef as junk food.
Signed,
A fishy guy :laughing7:
Okay lets change it to pork...Im trying to lay off the fish and chicken for a bit anyway.
You are only making it worse.... :winkgrin:
EBRLeviticus 11
7 And, the swine, because, though he, parteth the hoof, and is cloven–footed, yet, the cud, he cheweth not,––unclean, he is, to you;
Micah, I've read your post several times and I still don't understand what you feel is lacking... but that's nothing new because, as I said, I understand less than half of what I read here anyway. :mblush: I hope that you stay here and that you find what you're looking for. :HeartThrob:
If it's all about learning the only thing to do is keep pushing forward and never rest.
When joined this forum nearly 3 years ago I could hardly mention 2 books of the Bible. Now I can mention at least 3. So wisdom comes with the years :laughing7:
I remember I was reading the NT for the first time. (3 years ago) I started with Matthew. You have to know I very often read in bath. Some will call it blasphemy when they see the state of my "bath Bible" which looks more like a scroll :winkgrin:
I usually don't take a bath more than once a week because of lack of time (no no I also have a shower...) so the next week I picked up the Bible and began to read Mark.
I got that Deja Vu feeling. Hu? 'I picked up reading at the wrong page' I thought. I've already read this stuff. So I checked back on Matthew and noticed the story was the same. Possibly a misprint? :secret:
After clearing the bath foam out of my head it occurred to me those guys actually told the same story from the time they spend with Jesus...
So by determination I learned something!
:bgdance:
:cloud9: @ Shawn.....Amen, that's what I was trying to say.... :laughing7: :thumbsup:
Hi Micah,
I guess I am one of those who are divided between physical and spiritual. Hope I didn't add to your discouragement in any way. I read everything I can, whether it speaks of spiritual or physical things. I think they both go together.
I wish I was able to post more but I just don't have the time. I like reading post that go against what I understand because it causes me to search the scriptures to see whether those things be true. As far as meat goes, I think you have to get a little here and a little there. I have learned from many different sources. Not one person has the whole truth.
Hope you are not talking about leaving the forum? I use to get upset because people couldn't see what I was saying and the truth that I thought they should see but now I understand that God is the one who gives us what we know. Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". Sometimes God allows me to glean something from different points of view about a subject. Is this considered beef? Beef is expensive and sometimes it comes with a lot of fat. :bigGrin:
CHB
Thanks. I hear what you are saying its good word. I would say beef for me is looking at what men and woman of faith I have read, heard, and recieved, then studying that understanding that I may have believed for years, then seeing it is not so, at least not to me.
I suppose what "I let" get to me most is that there are established things that the Lord has confirmed is sound doctrine....God through Jesus Christ created all things Col. 1:16. Jesus was crucified, died, and rose from that death, Jesus gave His life Jo.3:16-17, we must be born again Jo.3:7 and that all men will be saved I Tim.2:4, and that we learn thru a mirror darkly and we know in part I Cor.13:12, thru teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness 2Ti 3:16, and Rev 1:8 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.' There is no debate for me hear, its so.
Example, (and I get in trouble with this) "that man is 3 fold...body-soul-spirit" when the Bible is very clear Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
it is dust made flesh, and by breath(spirit) becomes a living soul. And I do understand the "change" in the meaning of soul going into the NT. But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Anyway, it seems no one is led to look into this, it seems that the building on the 3 fold man is the only building thats gonna happen.
Hope I didnt mess up your mind. I know that .. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. Gal 2:20
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2011, 08:26:00 PMAs far as meat goes, I think you have to get a little here and a little there. I have learned from many different sources. Not one person has the whole truth.
Yeah. Just small bites at the time. Chew, swallow and repeat. But give it time to digest otherwise.
QuoteHope you are not talking about leaving the forum? I use to get upset because people couldn't see what I was saying
In a way that's good. It shows you like the message. Maybe you should just try to explain the message in a different way. Jesus use fish parable when taking to fishermen. Sheep parables for shepherds. And wheat parable for farmers. So it would be fine if you make up your own parable.
QuoteSometimes God allows me to glean something from different points of view about a subject. Is this considered beef? Beef is expensive and sometimes it comes with a lot of fat.
Dunno about the shops you buy in; but here beef with fat should be cheap. :laughing7:
Take, WillieH, Nathan and Cardinal. Three totally different styles. Does it mean at least 2 are ungodly or selling junk meat?
I'm missing the knowledge to accurately measure depth but I would say they all sell beef but baked with a different recipe.
Beef with spicy herbs is still beef. For me spicy food makes my mouth numb. It makes my taste go away. Literally. I avoid such food.
Quote from: Micah7:9
Example, (and I get in trouble with this) "that man is 3 fold...body-soul-spirit" when the Bible is very clear Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
it is dust made flesh, and by breath(spirit) becomes a living soul. And I do understand the "change" in the meaning of soul going into the NT. But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Anyway, it seems no one is led to look into this, it seems that the building on the 3 fold man is the only building thats gonna happen.
Micah, you said "But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Micah, I want to understand and learn so, explain why you said you can no longer except that man has a living soul. Are you saying that man IS a living soul, {soul and body are the same} not that he has one? Please explain. I think we are in agreement with this.
Here is how I see this now: God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul, before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul. I am always open to suggestions though.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2011, 10:00:07 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2011, 08:26:00 PMAs far as meat goes, I think you have to get a little here and a little there. I have learned from many different sources. Not one person has the whole truth.
Yeah. Just small bites at the time. Chew, swallow and repeat. But give it time to digest otherwise.
QuoteHope you are not talking about leaving the forum? I use to get upset because people couldn't see what I was saying
In a way that's good. It shows you like the message. Maybe you should just try to explain the message in a different way. Jesus use fish parable when taking to fishermen. Sheep parables for shepherds. And wheat parable for farmers. So it would be fine if you make up your own parable.
Good idea.
QuoteSometimes God allows me to glean something from different points of view about a subject. Is this considered beef? Beef is expensive and sometimes it comes with a lot of fat.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Dunno about the shops you buy in; but here beef with fat should be cheap. :laughing7:
It's like everything else you buy, smaller packages, bigger prices.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Take, WillieH, Nathan and Cardinal. Three totally different styles. Does it mean at least 2 are ungodly or selling junk meat?
I'm missing the knowledge to accurately measure depth but I would say they all sell beef but baked with a different recipe.
Beef with spicy herbs is still beef. For me spicy food makes my mouth numb. It makes my taste go away. Literally. I avoid such food.
Yes, and I have learned something from each of them. Don't like spicy foods either, they don't do anything good for my acid reflux.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 15, 2011, 10:00:07 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2011, 08:26:00 PMAs far as meat goes, I think you have to get a little here and a little there. I have learned from many different sources. Not one person has the whole truth.
Yeah. Just small bites at the time. Chew, swallow and repeat. But give it time to digest otherwise.
QuoteHope you are not talking about leaving the forum? I use to get upset because people couldn't see what I was saying
In a way that's good. It shows you like the message. Maybe you should just try to explain the message in a different way. Jesus use fish parable when taking to fishermen. Sheep parables for shepherds. And wheat parable for farmers. So it would be fine if you make up your own parable.
QuoteSometimes God allows me to glean something from different points of view about a subject. Is this considered beef? Beef is expensive and sometimes it comes with a lot of fat.
Dunno about the shops you buy in; but here beef with fat should be cheap. :laughing7:
Take, WillieH, Nathan and Cardinal. Three totally different styles. Does it mean at least 2 are ungodly or selling junk meat?
I'm missing the knowledge to accurately measure depth but I would say they all sell beef but baked with a different recipe.
Beef with spicy herbs is still beef. For me spicy food makes my mouth numb. It makes my taste go away. Literally. I avoid such food.
Its the only other meat in line after one has led with fish and chicken. And has NOTHING to do with beef the meat.
Isa 43:19 Behold Me doing
a new thing. Now is it sprouting. Are you not knowing it? Indeed,
I am placing a way in the wilderness, tracks in the desolation."All Im have been saying is that there are many good posts for learning and good debate, but it is all build on what we "had" known.
The "body of Moses" as it went through the wilderness those 40 years never stayed in one place to long, HE led them, always moving them to something NEW. Now To Day the "body of Christ" is in the wilderness and must keep moving, led. I dont understand many things that I post, they all lead away from what I have followed for so long, dont seem to make sense. O well :sigh:
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2011, 10:07:38 PM
Quote from: Micah7:9
Example, (and I get in trouble with this) "that man is 3 fold...body-soul-spirit" when the Bible is very clear Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
it is dust made flesh, and by breath(spirit) becomes a living soul. And I do understand the "change" in the meaning of soul going into the NT. But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Anyway, it seems no one is led to look into this, it seems that the building on the 3 fold man is the only building thats gonna happen.
Micah, you said "But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Micah, I want to understand and learn so, explain why you said you can no longer except that man has a living soul. Are you saying that man IS a living soul, {soul and body are the same} not that he has one? Please explain. I think we are in agreement with this.
Here is how I see this now: God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul, before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul. I am always open to suggestions though.
CHB
How is body and soul the same? It reads in Gen.2:7 that man became a lilving soul. Now as far as there being a dead soul, dont you have to be alive before you are dead? Actually a lving soul is a breathing creature, which includes all the beast of the field, cattle, fish, fowl, it is being alive.
The souls of Jonathan and David were knit together. Their bodies weren't knit together, their souls were. Soul is separate from body in man. This bond passed through the ages as the tribe of Benjamin and the tribe of Judah always stuck together. Even Jesus, from the tribe of Judah, chose all his disciples save one from the tribe of Benjamin.
So not only is soul separate from body, here we see a soul bond that transcends and influences the ages.
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
--1 Sam 1:8
I see the soul as a sort of half way mark between a brain and the spirit, almost like a gateway between the two.
Genesis MAn+Breath+ Dirt = Our being spirit consciousness(Man)+Our living product of memories and experiences(soul)+ our functional body(Dust clay body).
That's why I think there are many kind souls in this world, but yet their spirit does not believe in God, has not been illuminated to receive the truth, but yet they are still kind souls, because they choose to eat from the tree of good, rather than evil. Some might even eat the tree of good, but deny the tree of life and operate under the influence of the antichrist spirit, who you have heard is in the world, working in the spirits of disobedience.
But I don't see any verse in the bible that suggest a souls can be seperated and functional from the body, but I belive the spirit of man that is within him can be seperated, whether good or evil.
- "O my soul...all that is within me...Bless the Lord, O my soul...Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things"
"None can keep alive his own soul"ps22:29
Quote from: TT"None can keep alive his own soul"ps22:29
Psalm 86:2
Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 15, 2011, 10:30:55 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 15, 2011, 10:07:38 PM
Quote from: Micah7:9
Example, (and I get in trouble with this) "that man is 3 fold...body-soul-spirit" when the Bible is very clear Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
it is dust made flesh, and by breath(spirit) becomes a living soul. And I do understand the "change" in the meaning of soul going into the NT. But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Anyway, it seems no one is led to look into this, it seems that the building on the 3 fold man is the only building thats gonna happen.
Micah, you said "But teaching (I once excepted myself) that man has a soul I can no longer except. Micah, I want to understand and learn so, explain why you said you can no longer except that man has a living soul. Are you saying that man IS a living soul, {soul and body are the same} not that he has one? Please explain. I think we are in agreement with this.
Here is how I see this now: God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul, before God breathed into Adam he was a dead soul. I am always open to suggestions though.
CHB
How is body and soul the same? It reads in Gen.2:7 that man became a lilving soul. Now as far as there being a dead soul, dont you have to be alive before you are dead? Actually a lving soul is a breathing creature, which includes all the beast of the field, cattle, fish, fowl, it is being alive.
Micah, Molly, what do you think a soul is? Don't think I worded my last post too good. I am trying to figure it all out. Be patient God isn't finished with me yet.
Here is an article that I agree with. http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess018a.htm
Haven't really studied this subject a lot but Eby seems to think that we existed before we became human, doesn't that mean that Adam was dead when God breathed into him?
CHB
Preserve, which suggests that it is held in safe keeping when it dies. I believe that, God shall not forget, the parts we left behind when our inner man reaches the pearly gates and in time will raise them from the dead.
I see our spirit as that vehicle which gives us connection to God. It is also the vehicle which through God gives life to our soul and body.
CHB I tend to agree with you because that verse of God breathing into Adam is so similar to this one:
After he had said this, he breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
--John 20:22
I believe that Adam had the HS which is why he was not deceived.
The resurrected Christ is a quickening spirit, able to give life [to quicken] the spirit and the soul of others. To be quickened in spirit is the meaning of born from above [born again].
The manifested sons of God will be quickening spirits, like Christ--which will also cause their own body and soul to be immortally alive, kept alive by the quickening spirit.
16The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;
--Psa 104:16
Molly, what do you think our soul is? You mentioned the spirit but not the soul.
Sorry Micah, maybe you would rather talk about something else? I thought since you mentioned that soul was one of the subjects you disagreed with that maybe we could work through it? I am open for correction on any of this. I would like to understand this subject more. If you can give me something to work with I would appreciate it. Please tell me what you think the soul is?
CHB
Hairy-tick guess. Soul is teh interface between body and spirit. Soul possibly is the great fixed guld/divide.
Interesting article: http://www.contendingforthefaith.com/responses/bible-answer-man/appendix/are-soul-spirit-same.html
First, let's look at a verse that tells us body and soul are separate--two different things.
Mathew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Isn't that telling me that men can kill my body but they cannot kill my soul? Doesn't that mean that my soul can survive the death of my body?
This next verse says God can separate our soul from our spirit. So, our soul and our spirit are two different things.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This verse says that God has a soul and spirit and that he can give us His spirit.
Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Here the apostle prays that all 3 parts of us--spirit, soul, and body--be sanctified and preserved blameless.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
"spirit"
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
"soul"
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
"body"
G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.
Interesting points Molly. I'd like to check later what the Christian Bible translation says re: the soul, spirit, and body, what terminology they use in an extremely literal translation. (I'd guess 'sentient being' is used for soul, which would likely mean the same thing. But I'm not sure - don't have my translation with me right now.)
Tony, I lifted this from your article. Pretty direct information;
The Human Soul
Not only does man possess a spirit which enables him to function in the spiritual realm; he also possesses a soul which is the organ of his self-consciousness. The soul is the seat of the human personality. The ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. The intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul. The three main functions of the soul are the will (Job 7:15), the mind (Lam. 3:20, RSV), and the emotion (2 Sam. 5:8; Deut. 6:5). The will is the instrument for making decisions and choices. The second function of the soul is the mind, the instrument for thinking. It is in this part of the soul that man reasons and has knowledge (Prov. 2:10). The third function of the soul is the emotion. This is the instrument of likes and dislikes. Through the emotions we are able to express love or hatred, joyfulness, anger, sadness, or happiness. A shortage in this area will render us insensitive. By a careful study of the Bible we cannot help but be impressed that these three primary functions of the personality belong to the soul.
Vital to Christian Experience
This matter of distinguishing the spirit from the soul is not just something of academic or doctrinal interests. It is vital to our Christian experience. .... Even serving the Lord must be done in and with our spirit (Rom. 1:9). Many today are satisfied simply to find an open door to serve the Lord, but Paul was regulated rather by the rest in his spirit (2 Cor. 2:12-13).
If you are a Christian, your spirit has been made alive by the Spirit (John 3:6), and today Jesus Christ is with your spirit (2 Tim. 4:22). There is not one verse in the whole Bible which says that your soul was born again or that Christ today is in your soul. Neither is there a single verse which says that we should worship God with our soul (although many Christians try it). But there is a verse which says that if we are going to worship God, we must worship Him in spirit (John 4:24).
contendingforthefaith.com
Quote from: CHB on May 16, 2011, 06:21:41 PM
Molly, what do you think our soul is? You mentioned the spirit but not the soul.
Sorry Micah, maybe you would rather talk about something else? I thought since you mentioned that soul was one of the subjects you disagreed with that maybe we could work through it? I am open for correction on any of this. I would like to understand this subject more. If you can give me something to work with I would appreciate it. Please tell me what you think the soul is?
CHB
Man IS a living soul, a person or living creature is a soul, how many souls died in that fire. The Christian Bible uses the word "sentient" (to preceive by the senses) for soul, which I believe is better for me. Now I do well understand how the word soul is used in the NT to expain what ego,self,appitite,heart, mind, senses, but it is the person who is the soul. Without a body and breath there is no soul.
"Haven't really studied this subject a lot but Eby seems to think that we existed before we became human, doesn't that mean that Adam was dead when God breathed into him?"
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
If you are a Christian, your spirit has been made alive by the Spirit (John 3:6), and today Jesus Christ is with your spirit (2 Tim. 4:22). There is not one verse in the whole Bible which says that your soul was born again or that Christ today is in your soul. Neither is there a single verse which says that we should worship God with our soul (although many Christians try it). But there is a verse which says that if we are going to worship God, we must worship Him in spirit (John 4:24).
contendingforthefaith.com
jabcat
There is a verse which says the soul magnifies the lord.
Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
This is after Mary is inspired by the Holy spirit.
I see the soul as a product of the spirit. The Spirit leads and commands, while the soul is the womb to be nourished and to grow up on the words we have feed it. Our soul is an entity that has developed over our entire life, so there are in fact parts of your soul that operate, that your not even aware of. Some people might say, your' in touch with your inner child etc, I see this to mean that there is a part of our soul that still remembers what it is to be a child.
In fact if I borrow that Adam/ Eve souls analogy, we can see this verse
Ephesians 5:29
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
The wife being the soul reverences the husband which is the spirit, and of course for the husband to love his own soul, just as much as he loves himself(The spirit man)
[/quote]
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 16, 2011, 06:21:41 PM
Molly, what do you think our soul is? You mentioned the spirit but not the soul.
Sorry Micah, maybe you would rather talk about something else? I thought since you mentioned that soul was one of the subjects you disagreed with that maybe we could work through it? I am open for correction on any of this. I would like to understand this subject more. If you can give me something to work with I would appreciate it. Please tell me what you think the soul is?
CHB
Man IS a living soul, a person or living creature is a soul, how many souls died in that fire. The Christian Bible uses the word "sentient" (to preceive by the senses) for soul, which I believe is better for me. Now I do well understand how the word soul is used in the NT to expain what ego,self,appitite,heart, mind, senses, but it is the person who is the soul. Without a body and breath there is no soul.
"Haven't really studied this subject a lot but Eby seems to think that we existed before we became human, doesn't that mean that Adam was dead when God breathed into him?"
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Interesting. The first man Adam became a soul, while the second Adam Jesus, becomes resurected and becomes a life giving spirit poured out on all flesh.
Quote from: jabcat on May 16, 2011, 09:11:10 PM
Interesting points Molly. I'd like to check later what the Christian Bible translation says re: the soul, spirit, and body, what terminology they use in an extremely literal translation. (I'd guess 'sentient being' is used for soul, which would likely mean the same thing. But I'm not sure - don't have my translation with me right now.)
Mat 12:18 ...My sentient being is delighted! I will place My Spirit upon Him....
Note the caps that point to divinity. Spirit and spirit i not the same in TCB
I think 1 Thes 5:23 is the most clear verse of alll Molly listed.
Now may the God of peace Himself purify you+ completely throughout your+ whole being; and may your+ whole being in all its parts (spirit, sentient being, and body) be kept blameless at the Presense of our Master Yesu (the Anoited One) [at the beginning of the Last Age]
Again watche the caps.
[....] = translator added commentary
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Not according to this verse:
ACVEcclesiastes 127 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Hi jabcat,
From reading your post, it sounds like the soul is hard to distinguish from the spirit?
Here are a few verses that speak of the soul. What I get from them is, the soul can die, can be without knowledge. You can satisfy it with water. Can feel sorrow, plus many other things.
(Psalms 33:19-20) To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
Verse 20 Our soul waiteth for the Lord.
(Psalms 116:8) For you hath delivered my soul from death.
(Prov. 19:2) Also that the soul be without knowledge.
(Prov. 25:25 As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.
(Jer. 20:13) he hath delivered the soul of the poor
(Jer. 31:12) Their soul shall be as a watered garden.
(Ezek. 18:4) all souls are mine.
(Hab. 2:10) thou hast sinned against thy soul.
(Mark 26:38) my soul is exceeding sorrowful.
(Luke21:19) in your patience possess ye your soul.
(Acts 4:32) of one heart and soul.
Does the above verse mean that the heart and soul are two different things?
(1Thess. 5:23) soul and body be preserved.
(James 5:20) shall save a soul from death.
(1Peter 2:11) abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.
(Rom. 13:1) Let every soul be subject to the higher powers.
Could our soul be our minds?
(1Thess. 5:23) soul and body be preserved
(Heb 6:19) Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul.
(Heb. 13:17)Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls.
(James 5:20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death.
Is this talking about seperation from God/spiritual death?
(3John 2) Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Can a soul prosper apart from the body? How? Maybe my mind would be in good shape but the body is not?
(1Peter 4:19) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing.
(Ezek. 3:19) Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; BUT THOU HAST DELIVERED THY SOUL.
(Acts 15:24) WE HAVE HEARD THAT CERTAIN WHICH WENT OUT FROM US HAVE TROUBLED YOU WITH WORDS, SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS.
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 16, 2011, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Not according to this verse:
ACVEcclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Not according to what? The
dust returns to the earth and
the breath returns to the one who gave it.
SOUL H5315 nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature H5314 to breathe
LIVING H2416 chay From H2421; alive; H2421 to live
Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.
Lev 17:11 ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood: forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 10:11:39 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 16, 2011, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Not according to this verse:
ACVEcclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Not according to what? The dust returns to the earth and the breath returns to the one who gave it.
? Seems pretty clear to me.
Eby says we pre-existed as a spirit.
You tried to refute Eby with ICo 15:45 --> I
Then I showed you a very clear verse of pre-existance. Simply because it's impossible to return to someplace you never have been before.
If the spirit didn't pre-exist then the correct word would have "goes" instead of "returns"
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 16, 2011, 10:18:45 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 10:11:39 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 16, 2011, 09:57:19 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
Yes I have read Eby for 20 years and believed what he stated that we existed as spirit before we became human. But as I have said before if that is true then was Paul in error when he wrote
1Co 15:45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Not according to this verse:
ACVEcclesiastes 12
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Not according to what? The dust returns to the earth and the breath returns to the one who gave it.
? Seems pretty clear to me.
Eby says we pre-existed as a spirit.
You tried to refute Eby with ICo 15:45 --> I
Then I showed you a very clear verse of pre-existance. Simply because it's impossible to return to someplace you never have been before.
If the spirit didn't pre-exist then the correct word would have "goes" instead of "returns"
:2c:
As I said, then Paul reported incorrectly. I believe that you undertstand the word spirit in Ecc. as something more than it is. Gen. 2:7 said He breathed the breath of life......that is what returns or goes back to the one who gave it.
I agree with micah on this one, that the spirit is this verse = breath, that returns to the one who gave IT
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
SOUL H5315 nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature H5314 to breathe
LIVING H2416 chay From H2421; alive; H2421 to live
Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.
Lev 17:11 ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood: forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315
Hi Micah,
So, are you saying that life is our soul? If that is true is it reasonable to say that our breath is our spirit and our body is flesh?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on May 16, 2011, 10:10:00 PM
Hi jabcat,
From reading your post, it sounds like the soul is hard to distinguish from the spirit?
Here are a few verses that speak of the soul. What I get from them is, the soul can die, can be without knowledge. You can satisfy it with water. Can feel sorrow, plus many other things.
Hi C. What I posted was a quote from the link Tony posted. I see it as saying the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God". Whereas, the spirit is a deeper level, something placed within us that can involve an interaction with God that is "beyond" our own efforts - i.e., God working
through us, as opposed to us working "for" God.
It's that place that I personally need to function at, not struggling with my own thoughts and emotions to "please" Him, but being more of a vessel, a conduit, which He can flow through. I'm seldom walking in the spirit in that manner, but when I do, it [He] "works".
Quote from: CHB on May 17, 2011, 12:44:41 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
SOUL H5315 nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature H5314 to breathe
LIVING H2416 chay From H2421; alive; H2421 to live
Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.
Lev 17:11 ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood: forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315
Hi Micah,
So, are you saying that life is our soul? If that is true is it reasonable to say that our breath is our spirit and our body is flesh?
CHB
I'm not sure the spirit and soul is interchangeable (I don't believe they are). As Molly posted scrips earlier, they show the separation of spirit, soul, and body - 3 things, perhaps not interchangeable.The link Tony gave addresses this in detail. It was educational for me to read.
It makes me think, "so what was Jesus saying when He said 'who is able to destroy your soul in Gehenna' "... Was He talking about 'life', or was He talking about the temporary/earthly part of us that contains our emotions, tendencies, personality (subconscious), or
both.
Whichever, it
doesn't mean what mainstream teaches it to mean, i.e., "you're going to hell for eternity". :2c:
Quote from: CHB on May 17, 2011, 12:44:41 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
SOUL H5315 nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature H5314 to breathe
LIVING H2416 chay From H2421; alive; H2421 to live
Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My life doth magnify the Lord,
And Mary said My breath is to magnify the Lord, Psa 150:6 May all that has breath praise Yah. Praise Yah.
Lev 17:11 ForH3588 the lifeH5315 of the fleshH1320 is in the blood: forH5921 your souls:H5315 forH3588 itH1931 is the bloodH1818 that maketh an atonementH3722 for the soul.H5315
Hi Micah,
So, are you saying that life is our soul? If that is true is it reasonable to say that our breath is our spirit and our body is flesh?
CHB
I understand it as the Bible says. As I reason spirit and breath are the same, unless it is speaking of The Spirit Gen.1:2 that I recieve as SPIRIT. Heb 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living."
I understand this as the Father of breaths/spirits G4151 G4154
Im different I will say that, but the way I now, understand it the body/flesh/dust when it received the breath of life/spirit and man/adam became a living soul, that combination of body and breath ignited the appitities, self, ego, senses. The NT calls appitities, self, ego, senses the soul. I do not.
Quote from: jabcat on May 17, 2011, 12:49:15 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 16, 2011, 10:10:00 PM
Hi jabcat,
From reading your post, it sounds like the soul is hard to distinguish from the spirit?
Here are a few verses that speak of the soul. What I get from them is, the soul can die, can be without knowledge. You can satisfy it with water. Can feel sorrow, plus many other things.
Hi C. What I posted was a quote from the link Tony posted. I see it as saying the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God". Whereas, the spirit is a deeper level, something placed within us that can involve an interaction with God that is "beyond" our own efforts - i.e., God working through us, as opposed to us working "for" God.
It's that place that I personally need to function at, not struggling with my own thoughts and emotions to "please" Him, but being more of a vessel, a conduit, which He can flow through. I'm seldom walking in the spirit in that manner, but when I do, it [He] "works".
Hi jabcat,
You said, " the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God".
Do our feelings, tendencies, personalities, die?
(Psalms 33:19-20) To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
Hab. 2:10) thou hast sinned against thy soul.
How do we sin against our feelings, personalities, and so forth?
Thanks in advance for your answer.
CHB
:cloud9: The soul is as water in a cistern, a container, but the water does not flow out of it, the cistern contains it. The Spirit, on the other hand, comes and troubles the water so to speak, until like a river, it overflows it's banks.
Not a coincidence there was river under the temple, that went under the INNER court part = out of your belly (word means, INNER MOST being/soul) shall FLOW rivers of living water.
The thing about water is, when you add two sources together, they become indisquishable from one another. So it is with our soul when knitted to Him, over time they are to become indisquishable from one another also.
This is why it is said, one was a living soul (or a soul that had life), and one was a life-GIVING Spirit. One must receive, and one gives, just as one (woman) must receive seed, and one (man) give it, for there to be new life brought forth.
A cistern that is broken refers to the vessel of man no longer being a vehicle for the expression of His Spirit (because non-moving water becomes stagnant and a breeding ground for undesirable things) and so like pottery, is broken and cast out into the potter's field. God's Spirit will not tarry (wait on man to move with Him) with man always. Blessings....
Quote from: CHB on May 17, 2011, 01:25:07 AM
Quote from: jabcat on May 17, 2011, 12:49:15 AM
Quote from: CHB on May 16, 2011, 10:10:00 PM
Hi jabcat,
From reading your post, it sounds like the soul is hard to distinguish from the spirit?
Here are a few verses that speak of the soul. What I get from them is, the soul can die, can be without knowledge. You can satisfy it with water. Can feel sorrow, plus many other things.
Hi C. What I posted was a quote from the link Tony posted. I see it as saying the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God". Whereas, the spirit is a deeper level, something placed within us that can involve an interaction with God that is "beyond" our own efforts - i.e., God working through us, as opposed to us working "for" God.
It's that place that I personally need to function at, not struggling with my own thoughts and emotions to "please" Him, but being more of a vessel, a conduit, which He can flow through. I'm seldom walking in the spirit in that manner, but when I do, it [He] "works".
Hi jabcat,
You said, " the soul is the part of us that contains our feelings, tendencies, personality - and can contain "our own works, our own attempts to function, including, to attempt to please/serve God".
Do our feelings, tendencies, personalities, die?
(Psalms 33:19-20) To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
Hab. 2:10) thou hast sinned against thy soul.
How do we sin against our feelings, personalities, and so forth?
Thanks in advance for your answer.
CHB
hey C., really not sure about all this, had never worried about it a lot before, really. again (as often is the case) I wonder what other translations say in the Habbakuk verse, if it's consistently rendered 'soul'? I'm not sure all the translators have known the difference either - but once again, I'm just not sure. Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on May 17, 2011, 02:17:32 AM
again (as often is the case) I wonder what other translations say in the Habbakuk verse, if it's consistently rendered 'soul'? I'm not sure all the translators have known the difference either - but once again, I'm just not sure. Blessings.
Took a quick look. It appears most of the older translations say 'soul', while the newer ones say 'life'...one even says "sin against yourself".
(Rotherham) Thou hast counseled shame to thy house—making an end of many peoples, and endangering thine own life.
Hab.2:10
Hab 2:10 Thou hast devised shame for thine house; By destroying many nations, thou hast brought ruin upon thyself.
Geo. Noyes 1869
Hab 2:10 "You have devised a shameful thing for your house
By cutting off many peoples;
So you are sinning against yourself. Amp. and NASB
. 10 By scheming to destroy many peoples, you have brought shame to your house and forfeited your life (Complete Jewish Bible D. Stern 1998)
Quote from: thinktank on May 16, 2011, 09:45:19 PM
If you are a Christian, your spirit has been made alive by the Spirit (John 3:6), and today Jesus Christ is with your spirit (2 Tim. 4:22). There is not one verse in the whole Bible which says that your soul was born again or that Christ today is in your soul. Neither is there a single verse which says that we should worship God with our soul (although many Christians try it). But there is a verse which says that if we are going to worship God, we must worship Him in spirit (John 4:24).
contendingforthefaith.com
jabcat
There is a verse which says the soul magnifies the lord.
Luke 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
This is after Mary is inspired by the Holy spirit.
I see the soul as a product of the spirit. The Spirit leads and commands, while the soul is the womb to be nourished and to grow up on the words we have feed it. Our soul is an entity that has developed over our entire life, so there are in fact parts of your soul that operate, that your not even aware of. Some people might say, your' in touch with your inner child etc, I see this to mean that there is a part of our soul that still remembers what it is to be a child.
In fact if I borrow that Adam/ Eve souls analogy, we can see this verse
Ephesians 5:29
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
The wife being the soul reverences the husband which is the spirit, and of course for the husband to love his own soul, just as much as he loves himself(The spirit man)
[my soul]
"doth magnify" [the Lord]
G3170
μεγαλύνω
megalunōmeg-al-oo'-no
From G3173; to make (or declare) great, that is,
increase or (figuratively) extol: -
enlarge, magnify, shew great.
What a concept, huh? The soul as the increaser of God!
His soul becomes knit together with ours. In this way are we saved because only he has immortality, only he has righteousness. Hereby-we-know-the-love-of-God: because-He-laid-down-his-soul-for-us.
Make no mistake. Jesus is the lover of my soul! :bigGrin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvHDlDZOtbE
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 16, 2011, 10:44:00 PMAs I said, then Paul reported incorrectly.
Are you aware that you are saying Paul wasn't inspired?
Another thing to consider is that all mentioned verses are 100% inspired and in agreement but you overlook a crucial detail...
:2c:
Quote from: jabcat
hey C., really not sure about all this, had never worried about it a lot before, really. again (as often is the case) I wonder what other translations say in the Habbakuk verse, if it's consistently rendered 'soul'? I'm not sure all the translators have known the difference either - but once again, I'm just not sure.
Me neither jabcat. I haven't thought about or studied this subject a lot. might be a good idea if I did. This is why I ask so many questions. I read the article WW posted and found this interesting.
Below is from the article WW, posted.
("But he himself never did explain what the point is in the verse which says that the Word of God divides the soul from the spirit. The point is very simple: in man there is the realm of the soul which is natural, and the realm of the spirit which can receive, appropriate, and understand the things of God. These two realms must be clearly divided asunder so that man can know the difference between the realm of the soul and the realm of the spirit".)
It sounds like he is saying that the soul is the part of man that is natural and doesn't recognize or care about the spiritual things. Could the soul and spirit be the good and bad in man. Just a thought. :dontknow: But then we have this verse that seems to contridict this (Psalms 49:8)
"For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever". So, it sounds like the soul can be redeemed?
(Heb. 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even TO THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT.
This verse sounds like God's word cuts the soul and spirit apart as if they are joined together. Have to look this up in other translations.
CHB
O Lord, thou hast pleaded the causes of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.
Lam:3:58
Oh draw near to my soul and redeem it; Ransom me because of my enemies!
Psa 69:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEb5kkksbSQ
Jesus, Redeemer of my soul,
O gracious God of Israel!
Quote from: CHB on May 17, 2011, 07:01:55 PM
(Heb. 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even TO THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT.
I asked it in my first post and got no answer so I ask again.
Does anybody see a paralel with Rich man and Lazarus.
The dividing asunder in Hebrews = the fixed gulf in RaL
????
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2011, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 17, 2011, 07:01:55 PM
(Heb. 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even TO THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT.
I asked it in my first post and got no answer so I ask again.
Does anybody see a paralel with Rich man and Lazarus.
The dividing asunder in Hebrews = the fixed gulf in RaL
????
I would think you could if you wanted to see the richman as flesh and Lazarus as spirit.
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (http://levendwater.org/companion/append13.html)
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT. (http://levendwater.org/companion/append9.html)
I think that aligns pretty well with the Jewish view a man has two souls. (or spirits. I don't remember exactly)
I think we should for a moment stop quibbling about the defenitions of spirit and soul.
Take a look at the first link. Animal and man have a soul.
Take a look at the second link. Only higher lifeforms have a spirit.
That's Biblical and should be our starting point.
I think it simply means that soul equals life (force) and instict.
Spirit is everything else.
:cloud9: You did it again, WW..... :thumbsup: yes there is a correlation between the rich man and Lazarus. The word for wound (as in wound in His SIDE) and wide gulf are related. The side speaks of the inner court, as does the wide gulf between man (outer court) and God (Holy of Holies).
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2011, 07:51:15 PM
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (http://levendwater.org/companion/append13.html)
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT. (http://levendwater.org/companion/append9.html)
I think that aligns pretty well with the Jewish view a man has two souls. (or spirits. I don't remember exactly)
I think we should for a moment stop quibbling about the defenitions of spirit and soul.
Take a look at the first link. Animal and man have a soul.
Take a look at the second link. Only higher lifeforms have a spirit.
That's Biblical and should be our starting point.
I think it simply means that soul equals life (force) and instict.
Spirit is everything else.
If you want to look at it that way fine. I m not quibling and the Biblical starting point is "man became a breathing creature."
Animal and man ARE souls = breathing creatures.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2011, 07:51:15 PM
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (http://levendwater.org/companion/append13.html)
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT. (http://levendwater.org/companion/append9.html)
I think that aligns pretty well with the Jewish view a man has two souls. (or spirits. I don't remember exactly)
I think we should for a moment stop quibbling about the defenitions of spirit and soul.
Take a look at the first link. Animal and man have a soul.
Take a look at the second link. Only higher lifeforms have a spirit.
That's Biblical and should be our starting point.
I think it simply means that soul equals life (force) and instict.
Spirit is everything else.
Makes sense to me. I may change my mind later though. :winkgrin:
CHB
Quote from: Cardinal on May 17, 2011, 08:05:25 PM
:cloud9: You did it again, WW..... :thumbsup: yes there is a correlation between the rich man and Lazarus. The word for wound (as in wound in His SIDE) and wide gulf are related. The side speaks of the inner court, as does the wide gulf between man (outer court) and God (Holy of Holies).
:idea2:
ACVGenesis 221 And LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept. And [God] took one of his
ribs, and closed up the flesh in place of it.
/ צלע
tsêlâ‛ / tsal‛âh
BDB Definition:
1)
side, rib, beam
1a) rib (of man)
1b) rib (of hill, ridge, etc)
1c) side-chambers or cells (of temple structure)
1d) rib, plank, board (of cedar or fir)
1e) leaves (of door)
1f) side (of ark)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H6760
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1924a
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2011, 07:51:15 PM
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (http://levendwater.org/companion/append13.html)
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT. (http://levendwater.org/companion/append9.html)
I think that aligns pretty well with the Jewish view a man has two souls. (or spirits. I don't remember exactly)
I think we should for a moment stop quibbling about the defenitions of spirit and soul.
Take a look at the first link. Animal and man have a soul.
Take a look at the second link. Only higher lifeforms have a spirit.
That's Biblical and should be our starting point.
I think it simply means that soul equals life (force) and instict.
Spirit is everything else.
Animals have spirits, too. Ask the American Indian.
Ecc 3:21
Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 17, 2011, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2011, 07:51:15 PM
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (http://levendwater.org/companion/append13.html)
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT. (http://levendwater.org/companion/append9.html)
I think that aligns pretty well with the Jewish view a man has two souls. (or spirits. I don't remember exactly)
I think we should for a moment stop quibbling about the defenitions of spirit and soul.
Take a look at the first link. Animal and man have a soul.
Take a look at the second link. Only higher lifeforms have a spirit.
That's Biblical and should be our starting point.
I think it simply means that soul equals life (force) and instict.
Spirit is everything else.
If you want to look at it that way fine. I m not quibling and the Biblical starting point is "man became a breathing creature."
Animal and man ARE souls = breathing creatures.
You keep insisting on this, but the actual starting point is
Genesis 1:27 (New International Version)
27 So God
created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
God created man Here before a soul is even mentioned, before a body also.
Quote from: thinktank on May 17, 2011, 09:58:07 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 17, 2011, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 17, 2011, 07:51:15 PM
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (http://levendwater.org/companion/append13.html)
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT. (http://levendwater.org/companion/append9.html)
I think that aligns pretty well with the Jewish view a man has two souls. (or spirits. I don't remember exactly)
I think we should for a moment stop quibbling about the defenitions of spirit and soul.
Take a look at the first link. Animal and man have a soul.
Take a look at the second link. Only higher lifeforms have a spirit.
That's Biblical and should be our starting point.
I think it simply means that soul equals life (force) and instict.
Spirit is everything else.
If you want to look at it that way fine. I m not quibling and the Biblical starting point is "man became a breathing creature."
Animal and man ARE souls = breathing creatures.
You keep insisting on this, but the actual starting point is
Genesis 1:27 (New International Version)
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
God created man Here before a soul is even mentioned, before a body also.
Good point, TT.
We also know that God has a Spirit, a soul [Christ], and a body [us]. :winkgrin:
"Good point, TT." Yes, it is something to consider thanks, still the way I must reason, the entire first chapter of Genesis, is The Word spoken, there is nothing formed until chapter 2 correct?
" We also know that God has a Spirit, a soul [Christ], and a body [us]. Molly
Where does it teach God has a Spirit?
And where does it teach that His(God's) soul is Christ?
I do not doubt the American Indian's beliefs.
Quote from: thinktank on May 17, 2011, 09:58:07 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 17, 2011, 08:06:11 PM
You keep insisting on this, but the actual starting point is
Genesis 1:27 (New International Version)
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
God created man Here before a soul is even mentioned, before a body also.
:cloud9: Please note.......MALE AND FEMALE He created THEM. Your mind is translating that scripture, according to what you can observe with your natural eyes, but what He is saying here is, He created BOTH OF THEM male and female = spirit and soul in each.
Not if we preexisted. Eby teaches this....
:cloud9: Don't understand your comment, and I don't know what Eby teaches..... :dontknow:
Well if we preexisted as spirit beings before we came to physical Earth. Male and Female God created THEM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 17, 2011, 11:34:51 PM
Quote from: thinktank on May 17, 2011, 09:58:07 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 17, 2011, 08:06:11 PM
You keep insisting on this, but the actual starting point is
Genesis 1:27 (New International Version)
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
God created man Here before a soul is even mentioned, before a body also.
:cloud9: Please note.......MALE AND FEMALE He created THEM. Your mind is translating that scripture, according to what you can observe with your natural eyes, but what He is saying here is, He created BOTH OF THEM male and female = spirit and soul in each.
Card, you speak this " He created BOTH OF THEM male and female = spirit and soul in each." as though thats it, anyone else that may reason it another way is not getting it.
I know and believe "...Male and female, created he, them. "
Its the last part that I do not accept. Neither spirit or soul is mentioned in Gen.1:27 and in Gen. 2:7 we find out what a soul is, it is a living creature.
I understand that your words are to be understood as spirit, but it seems to me that you take a NT word and use it in the OT where we do not have that same meaning. Or am I way off base.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
GOD HAS A SOUL
11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
--Lev 26:11
30And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
--Lev 26:30
1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
--Isa 42:1
8Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
--Zech 11:8
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.--Mat 12:18
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
--Heb 10:38
Jesus, Redeemer of my soul,
O gracious God of Israel.
Yes, and when he/God spoke these words he wasn't even human. Wow!!! I believe this was Jesus speaking, he just wasn't Jesus at that time.
CHB
You tell me, the same soul as Gen.2:7 is used in Lev. Isa. Zech. is God a nephesh?
H5315 nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal...H5314 nâphash A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed
Yes. Nephesh.
His creation is stunning and, most particularly, in its reflection of Him.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Come to think of it, he was both, or could be either one he chose to be. He walked in the garden in the cool of the day. He talked with Abraham. I believe he was Melchizedek. After he was resurrected he eat and told his disciples that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have".
CHB
Quote from: CHB on May 18, 2011, 01:25:03 AM
Come to think of it, he was both, or could be either one he chose to be. He walked in the garden in the cool of the day. He talked with Abraham. I believe he was Melchizedek. After he was resurrected he eat and told his disciples that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have".
CHB
It kind of knocks your socks off, doesn't it?
It's like standing with Simeon in the Temple as he held the child in his arms and knowing how he felt--
27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30For mine eyes have seen [Y'shuah] thy salvation,
--Luke 2
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 01:16:32 AM
Yes. Nephesh.
His creation is stunning and, most particularly, in its reflection of Him.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Here I am being stupid again, I do not understand.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 17, 2011, 11:34:51 PM
:cloud9: Please note.......MALE AND FEMALE He created THEM. Your mind is translating that scripture, according to what you can observe with your natural eyes, but what He is saying here is, He created BOTH OF THEM male and female = spirit and soul in each.
There seem to be a lot of translation issues regarding Adam.
Man and mankind is frequently mixed up. So it's a bit of question if man refers to a single person or mankind.
CLV
And creating is Elohim humanity in His Image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them
ISA2
and.he-is-creating Elohim (ath) the.human in.image-of.him Elohim he-created (ath) .him male and.female he-created (ath) them
The ISA2 translation is in the Hebrew word order. Each 'color block' is one word in Hebrew.
(ath) is the mysterious untranslated word discussed in THIS thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/the_fourth_word_8391.msg99558.html#msg99558)
Cardinal, I understand your opinion but I have trouble figuring out if male and female points to a single person or to humanity as a group (that roughly consists of 50% males and 50% females)
"it" in the CLV translation seems to point to mankind instead of an individual.
ah, translations.
lately i've wondered if sometimes when we post our beliefs, we're really using accurately translated scripture. I'm wondering if we've (as a general group) researched hell, eternal, etc., so we know of those mistranslations related to UR - but are just now getting to searching out some of the other words, concepts, phrases. for example, the whole "soul" discussions, and how different translations have come into play and say different things about that. it may be at least part of the reason for still so many variances in beliefs on many things. (I know there are many other reasons, but just wondering lately about translations.) I also know the Spirit can and does reveal to us, but also, if we have many mistranslations - whether minor or major things - seems that could add confusion to an issue. :Chinscratch:
or maybe this is another thread...
alright, carry on :bigGrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 18, 2011, 07:49:03 AM
CLV
And creating is Elohim humanity in His Image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them
ISA2
and.he-is-creating Elohim (ath) the.human in.image-of.him Elohim he-created (ath) .him male and.female he-created (ath) them
The ISA2 translation is in the Hebrew word order. Each 'color block' is one word in Hebrew.
(ath) is the mysterious untranslated word discussed in THIS thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/the_fourth_word_8391.msg99558.html#msg99558)
Cardinal, I understand your opinion but I have trouble figuring out if male and female points to a single person or to humanity as a group (that roughly consists of 50% males and 50% females)
"it" in the CLV translation seems to point to mankind instead of an individual.
Have been led to accept that it is mankind-humanity. But thats just me.
Quote from: jabcat on May 18, 2011, 07:57:35 AM
ah, translations.
lately i've wondered if sometimes when we post our beliefs, we're really using accurately translated scripture. I'm wondering if we've (as a general group) researched hell, eternal, etc., so we know of those mistranslations related to UR - but are just now getting to searching out some of the other words, concepts, phrases. for example, the whole "soul" discussions, and how different translations have come into play and say different things about that. it may be at least part of the reason for still so many variances in beliefs on many things. (I know there are many other reasons, but just wondering lately about translations.) I also know the Spirit can and does reveal to us, but also, if we have many mistranslations - whether minor or major things - seems that could add confusion to an issue. :Chinscratch:
or maybe this is another thread...
alright, carry on :bigGrin:
I began to wonder question just that about the translations just about 6 months ago, and it has had me put away many of the teachings I found to be sound for years. And this is a positive statement, " I also know the Spirit can and does reveal to us" :bigGrin:
:thumbsup: micah
A.P. Adams -
"The common idea is that God created man perfect and complete in the garden of Eden, and thus started him all right; but evil invaded that peaceful and blessed retreat, successfully assailed the man and the woman, and the dreadful consequences were sin, alienation, the loss of Paradise and universal death. Thus was God's handiwork marred and his plans disarranged, and now he must commence all over again, as it were, first, to repair damages and then to carry out his original plan as best he can. This is the common idea among the great mass of Christians, and yet the simple statement of it as above is enough to make one suspect that the idea cannot be just exactly right. Is it so?-that God is altogether such an one as ourselves?-whose plans may be upset?-whose will may be thwarted?-who may be compelled to change his plan because of some interfering agency or evil power entering in and for the time being getting the better of him? Is it so? Why, no, we say; and yet what shall we do with the Bible story of the "fall of man" as we term it? Shall we make God responsible for it? If his will was not thwarted in that terrible fall, must we say that it was in accordance with his will? Many cannot say that, it seems blasphemous; and yet either that is true, or else his will was thwarted and his plans disarranged and upset by an evil power, mightier, or for the time being more cunning than himself. What shall we do in this dilemma? How shall we untangle this seeming snarl?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TrueBasisOfRedemption-APAdams.html
QuoteIf his will was not thwarted in that terrible fall, must we say that it was in accordance with his will? Many cannot say that, it seems blasphemous; and yet either that is true, or else his will was thwarted and his plans disarranged and upset by an evil power, mightier, or for the time being more cunning than himself. What shall we do in this dilemma? How shall we untangle this seeming snarl?"
I think many here would say it was in accordance with his will, but I think there are other alternatives. Creation is a messy business. It's not so much that things don't go according to plan, as that there are a myriad of consequences to deal with as the creation becomes more complex.
But as water relentlessly finds it way downhill and meets the occasional obstruction causing it to change course, so will the act of creation appear to branch to the left or the right because of an obstacle. But, the water will find its course to the lowest point, eventually even eroding the obstacle itself. Just so, the original intent of the Creator will be realized, not so much because he wills it, but because given the parameters of the creation, it has to be.
:cloud9: Yes He does and we were made in His image..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 11:53:12 AM
QuoteIf his will was not thwarted in that terrible fall, must we say that it was in accordance with his will? Many cannot say that, it seems blasphemous; and yet either that is true, or else his will was thwarted and his plans disarranged and upset by an evil power, mightier, or for the time being more cunning than himself. What shall we do in this dilemma? How shall we untangle this seeming snarl?"
I think many here would say it was in accordance with his will, but I think there are other alternatives. Creation is a messy business. It's not so much that things don't go according to plan, as that there are a myriad of consequences to deal with as the creation becomes more complex.
But as water relentlessly finds it way downhill and meets the occasional obstruction causing it to change course, so will the act of creation appear to branch to the left or the right because of an obstacle. But, the water will find its course to the lowest point, eventually even eroding the obstacle itself. Just so, the original intent of the Creator will be realized, not so much because he wills it, but because given the parameters of the creation, it has to be.
Just who/what do you consider to be, "
occasional obstruction causing it to change course..?"
Quote from: Cardinal on May 18, 2011, 08:18:33 PM
:cloud9: Yes He does and we were made in His image..... :thumbsup:
I am amazed that I find myself in these positions and I know that I am awkward, but I still ask. "We are made in HIS image," I for one have a great desire to know just what that image is. We are also made in His likeness, again I stumble, for just what is the likeness .....who we have been told we are the image and likeness of?
Are there two distinct creations, or works of God revealed in chapters one and two of Genesis?
Is the image of God the nature of God reproduced in man?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on May 20, 2011, 07:18:06 AM
Are there two distinct creations, or works of God revealed in chapters one and two of Genesis?
Is the image of God the nature of God reproduced in man?
Ive found out that you are an editor of sorts. That immediatlly makes me nervous, but I post anyway. So, are there two distinct creations revealed in Gen.1 and 2? Yes. I believe that there are.
That's also how I read it.
:bigGrin: Glory! :HeartThrob: HE is Good!