How prophecy was sealed

[reFORMer]

That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.

That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?

If he says to go into the desert or in the secret chambers, don't go forth, Jesus will return as a flash of lightning.

Not only does the (1.) phrase "seven years great tribulation" never occur in Scripture, neither does (2.) the word "rapture."  If your looking toward the bringing of a people into complete victory, even over death, and are pressing into it yourself, then you are pursuing the goal the apostle says is the one thing he does.  But if you are expecting (3.) at any moment (4.) the sudden (5.) disappearance (6.) of racially gentile believers (7.) after which the devil will take over this earth, then you are expecting to occur several non-Biblical lies (even as I have enumerated.)

The translations that have Jesus saying either "return" or "flash of lightning" are misleading.  Here is more exactly what is actually said:  "For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." (Matthew 24:27, Concordant Literal Translation)  The  sun rises in the east and, in the rather short period we call "dawn," the whole sky lightens up, the light "appearing even as far as the west."  It is about the dawn of a new day, not a transitory electrical display.  Additionally, I think Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled, Jesus ascending and receiving the kingdom from His Father, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

To continue about this rather large topic it should probably be in another thread.  I mostly intend to mention something in passing about some things others have made passing remarks concerning.

[Molly]

That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.

That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?

If he says to go into the desert or in the secret chambers, don't go forth, Jesus will return as a flash of lightning.

Not only does the (1.) phrase "seven years great tribulation" never occur in Scripture, neither does (2.) the word "rapture."  If your looking toward the bringing of a people into complete victory, even over death, and are pressing into it yourself, then you are pursuing the goal the apostle says is the one thing he does.  But if you are expecting (3.) at any moment (4.) the sudden (5.) disappearance (6.) of racially gentile believers (7.) after which the devil will take over this earth, then you are expecting to occur several non-Biblical lies (even as I have enumerated.)

The translations that have Jesus saying either "return" or "flash of lightning" are misleading.  Here is more exactly what is actually said:  "For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." (Matthew 24:27, Concordant Literal Translation)  The  sun rises in the east and, in the rather short period we call "dawn," the whole sky lightens up, the light "appearing even as far as the west."  It is about the dawn of a new day, not a transitory electrical display.  Additionally, I think Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled, Jesus ascending and receiving the kingdom from His Father, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

To continue about this rather large topic it should probably be in another thread.  I mostly intend to mention something in passing about some things others have made passing remarks concerning.

I know. I know. lol

If your looking toward the bringing of a people into complete victory, even over death, and are pressing into it yourself, then you are pursuing the goal the apostle says is the one thing he does.

Yes, I am.  Your description of the whole sky lighting up at dawn is a perfect metaphor.  I have seen lightning go from one horizon to the other [in a Kansas field at night] which also lights up the whole sky.  I am expecting something spectacular.

But if you are expecting (3.) at any moment (4.) the sudden (5.) disappearance (6.) of racially gentile believers (7.) after which the devil will take over this earth, then you are expecting to occur several non-Biblical lies (even as I have enumerated.)

I understand.  But, I do expect evil to increase [which it is].  So I'm still somewhat open to the 7 years of tribulation thing--especially since every church in the country seems to preach it.  I have no particular Biblical proof of it, though.

As far as 'rapture' is concerned, what they call the rapture, I consider to be what you are describing, and that it will happen to everyone at the same time.

[thinktank]

I did some research and find out that holographic technology is being developed and being released by 2016. Holographic technology could be used to set the image of the beast that speaks.

I read somewhere that holographic tech was already used in the first Gulf war to scare the 'enemy' troops half to death.  Who knows if that's true, but remember how fast that war was won?  I know a type of holography was already available on the computer screens of thinktanks in the 70's [3 D representations, seen from all sides].  I am sure they are very advanced with this now.  I bet holographic email is right around the corner, where you open my email and I am sitting on your couch in 3 D talking to you.  Would that count for 'to and fro' in your book? :happygrin:

Wow I didn't even think of that. Holographic email, that is way advanced, sounds crazy. You should share your idea to to the makers of sci fi films.

Airplanes satisfies my definition of to and fro.  1.5 billion people travel by plane each year.  Then if you include train, bus, and car, that's a lot of to and fro'ing.

Yes but to and froing happened n the 18th century, there is nothing new today, perhaps I suppose commercial aircraft is new, I was thinking of war planes and blimps in the olden days. But individual flying transport is very new for the end times scenario, and I think that the to and froing happen at the same time the fourth iron beast arises. I don't think the 4th beast has arrived yet. Some say the fourth beast is the roman empire, but as a student of the book of Daniel I cannot see this being the case, I think a revived Roman empire, is an unlikely scenario, there is a possibility though that the Roman empire still exists, in the form of the UN today, both are very similar and share ceasars symbol, but I think the last iron beast where the 10 kings come from, is not the UN or Roman empire, but could coencide with the UN, work with it, so to speak, possibly even wage war against it and claim its dominion.

Be wary of 2012 and second coming predictions by pastors, who overthrow the faith of some.

yeah. you're probably right--they would fake it,  expecially if they have the technology to do it. :sigh:

Whoever calls upon the name of YAH shall be saved.

[thinktank]

TT,

A thief in the night doesn't mean unexpected. On the contrary.
Aren't most fallen away today?
1 billion Christians. That's 1:7.
I bet many know close to nothing about Christianity. And many never opened a Bible and just listen to that Tele Tubbie in from of church each sunday.
So how many are really Christian? Maybe just the famous 5%....

I got no problem with you making predictions.

Hi TT,

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't defending my calculation but I was asking you a question.
If you look around and count all real/sincere Christians in the world don't you conclude a very high percentage of humanity has already fallen away?

No, because everyone has already fallen away since Adam, so therefore one can only fall away, if they turn away from Christ after receiving him, otherwise why would Paul make his statment. Further if you look at what Christ said, he said that at the end many false christs will come and if possible deceive the elect. I have come accross these movements and they are very deceptive, it is enough to fool any Christian, only ones trust in instinct and certain scriptures can keep one from being deceived. I think that these false christs will come to seduce the elect, and then the man of sin is revealed, after faith is broken.

[WhiteWings]

I think that these false christs will come to seduce the elect, and then the man of sin is revealed, after faith is broken.

Bad luck then because it's impossible to decieve the elect.

[thinktank]

Depends on who the elect are though. Are they the chosen or are they the called?

[WhiteWings]

^YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.  (=elect)

^YLTEph 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

^YLTRev 2
1 `To the messenger of the Ephesian assembly write: These things saith he who is holding the seven stars in his right hand, who is walking in the midst of the seven lamp-stands--the golden:
2 I have known thy works, and thy labour, and thy endurance, and that thou art not able to bear evil ones, and that thou hast tried those saying themselves to be apostles and are not, and hast found them liars,
3 and thou didst bear, and hast endurance, and because of my name hast toiled, and hast not been weary.
4 `But I have against thee: That thy first love thou didst leave!

[thinktank]

e.g Paul was chosen, but the rich man was called by God to follow him, but he ran away in distress.

Some people feel they were called by God at an early age to be pastors etc, while others like the christian message and chose to follow Christ.

I feel that those who are chosen are special vessels prepared by God in order to change the world. eg Jeremiah, Moses, Saul, Jesus the seed of David.

[Aleax]

^YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.  (=elect)

You know, for a long time I used to read this passage like "so as to lead astray possibly even the chosen" iow. I thought it wasn't revealed whether the chosen can be deceived or not. However, recently I've discovered some Bibles translate it to "if it were possible, also the elect."

As for the rapture, if I don't remember it all wrong Cardinal once said she had heard the Holy Spirit audibly state there will be no rapture. She had reacted like "I can't believe it! Everything I have been taught as truth is false, and everything I thought was false turns out to be true." (Card if you're reading this and I'm wrong, correct me)

[WhiteWings]

^YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.  (=elect)

You know, for a long time I used to read this passage like "so as to lead astray possibly even the chosen" iow. I thought it wasn't revealed whether the chosen can be deceived or not. However, recently I've discovered some Bibles translate it to "if it were possible, also the elect."

I just checked a dozen translations and the all have "if it were"
Including the KJV.

Code Select Expand

24 For there will arise, false Christs, and false prophets,––and they will show great signs and wonders, so that, if possible, even the chosen, should be deceived:––
24 For @ there shall arise @ false Christs @, and @ false prophets @, and @ shall shew @ great @ signs @ and @ wonders @; insomuch that @, if @ it were possible @, they shall deceive @ the very @ elect @.
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.
24 For there will arise FALSE Christs and FALSE prophets, and they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will come up false Christs, and false prophets, who will do great signs and wonders; so that if possible even the saints might be tricked.
24 For there will arise false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they will deceive the very elect.
24 For false christs and false prophets will be raised up, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will arise false Christs and false prophets. And they will produce great signs and wonders, so much so as to lead into error even the elect (if this could be).
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall give great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
24 For pseudo messiahs and pseudo prophets rise; and they give mega signs and omens; so as, if possible, to seduce the very select.
24 For there shall arise false Christs pseudo messiahs , and false pseudo prophets, and shall shew give great mega signs and wonders omens ; In so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive seduce the very elect select .
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the elect's sake.
24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders in such a manner that they shall deceive, if possible, the very elect.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 For there will arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 For there will rise up false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders, so that, if possible, even the chosen will be deceived.
24 »There will be false Christs and false prophets. They will show great signs and wonders so that many will be misled. This includes some of the chosen ones.
24 For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect.
24 For false Christs, and false prophets, shall be raised up, and give great signs and wonders; so as to deceive, if possible, also the chosen.
24 For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect.


So translations seem to agree on that point.

[thinktank]

^YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.  (=elect)

You know, for a long time I used to read this passage like "so as to lead astray possibly even the chosen" iow. I thought it wasn't revealed whether the chosen can be deceived or not. However, recently I've discovered some Bibles translate it to "if it were possible, also the elect."

As for the rapture, if I don't remember it all wrong Cardinal once said she had heard the Holy Spirit audibly state there will be no rapture. She had reacted like "I can't believe it! Everything I have been taught as truth is false, and everything I thought was false turns out to be true." (Card if you're reading this and I'm wrong, correct me)

I think the chosen will be deceived BUT, also NOT. I.e they will initially be seduced and then after experiencing the miracles and the manifestations smehting will resonate within them that something is not quite right, then they will leave and not be deceived. Hence the reason why Jesus mentions "if it were possible". Interesting to note that in the church you might have heard of a guy named Todd Bentley. This guy was someone who seduced the elect into his miracles, and emphasis on angels, such as Emma, and also his unusual healings of violence. After a while the people began to suspect something was wrong, and then suddenly the movement went sour and there was divorce between Todd and his wife. This lead to people questioning the movement and found many of the things were not scriptural. The good thing about this failed movement was that it brought to light the fact that healing miracles do take place and that the spirit behind them is not necessarily the Holy spirit. It also helps arm the body of christ against the false prophets and christ who utilize similar phenemona to take people away from Christ and dwelving into angels and miracles etc. Correct formula is seek Christ first then the kingdom shall be given to you.






If I remember correctly I think she said there would be a taking up, but not the same as churches teach it. I interpret this to mean there will be a resurection ,but it will not be as simple as just saying Jesus is lord, but one must live a holy life and not live like a devil. I have also had my own vision on this if you want to hear it pm me.

[Doug]

The translations that have Jesus saying either "return" or "flash of lightning" are misleading.  Here is more exactly what is actually said:  "For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." (Matthew 24:27, Concordant Literal Translation)  The  sun rises in the east and, in the rather short period we call "dawn," the whole sky lightens up, the light "appearing even as far as the west."  It is about the dawn of a new day, not a transitory electrical display.  Additionally, I think Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled, Jesus ascending and receiving the kingdom from His Father, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

In the Olivet Discourse the questions the disciples asked Jesus were, when would the things he said would happen to the temple occur? and, what was the sign of his coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples would have been well aware of Old Testament prophecies about the "day of the Lord," for example, it is mentioned in Joel 2:1, and Zechariah 14:1. Zechariah's prophecy foretold the cleaving of the mount of Olives, half of it moving to the north, and half of it moving to the south.

It cannot be an accident that Jesus' prophecies about the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, and the end of the world, were associated with the mount of Olives. Jesus stood on the mount of Olives many times during his ministry, and even lived there, which fulfilled the part of Zechariah's prophecy that said "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east." [Zechariah 14:4]

When the Romans besieged Jerusalem, the mount of Olives did not cleave in its midst, in any sense whatsoever. If any Jews at the time thought that the Roman armies besieging Jerusalem might be the ones Zechariah had foretold, and that God would soon fight on their behalf, and cleave the mount of Olives, and send awful plagues on the Romans and even upon their horses, mules, asses, and camels, they were mistaken. Many were killed, or became slaves.

No doubt, Jesus included the Jewish war when he said, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." [Matthew 24:6]

When Jesus said, "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh," [Luke 21:20] it is unlikely he meant the earthly Jerusalem. Consider, where were those apostles when Jerusalem was under siege by the Roman armies? Many of them were probably already dead. And how could any but Jews living in the immediate area have seen Jerusalem compassed by the Roman armies?

At that time, the church was established in many nations; most Christians had probably never been to the earthly Jerusalem, and would not get to see any armies camped around it. This applies to most Christians who have ever lived. But every Christian, in every age, has come to the heavenly Jerusalem. [Hebrews 12:22] And that one has been compassed by armies, not of flesh and blood, but the armies of "the rulers of the darkness of this world," who promote "spiritual wickedness in high places." 

The armies that compass the holy city of the saints are those described in prophecies such as Isaiah 34:2; Ezekiel 38:4; Joel 2:11; Zechariah 14:2; Revelation 9:16; 20:8-9. These are the armies Jesus referred to!

I suggest the Mount of Olives represents the Olivet Discourse of Jesus. His prophecy has been figuratively "cleaved in the midst," and displaced to the north, and to the south, by the two opposite interpretations, preterism and dispensationalism!

Zechariah said to flee to the valley between those two mountains; that is, apply the things Jesus taught in his Olivet Discourse to the whole age of the church, not to Jews of the first century, or to the Jews in a hypothetical future seven year tribulation. The church is the "Jerusalem" of Zechariah's prophecies, which God promised to defend!

If there is anything that the history of the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD should teach us, it is that the Jerusalem of prophecy is not the earthly Jerusalem. But, both preterism and dispensationalism apply most prophecies about Jerusalem to the earthly city. After Jesus ascended to heaven, the Jerusalem to which those prophecies apply is the heavenly city, the Church. This explains why Jews living in the first century, who hoped for the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecies, were disappointed.

Jesus referred to the blowing of a trumpet; "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call," [Matthew 24:31] which connects the Olivet Discourse to the book of Revelation, and the seven trumpets described there. These allude to the trumpets at Jericho, which stood at the gateway to the promised land. The trumpets in Revelation precede the resurrection, when the saints of all ages are to be raised up, and inherit the promise of life, and be rewarded for their works.

Jesus included many people, "all the tribes of the earth," among those affected by the events that he described in the Olivet Discourse. But the events of 70 AD were local to the area of Judea. He said, "all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." [Matthew 24:30]

The scope of the events Jesus described is universal. Isaiah said, "the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations." [Isaiah 34:2] The armies described by Ezekiel and by Joel also involve many people. [Ezekiel 38:6; Joel 2:2; 3:12]

Zechariah said, "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people." [Zechariah 12:3] All nations would gather against it. [Zechariah 14:2] This did not apply to the events of 70 AD, where the armies were Roman armies. And the Jerusalem to which these prophecies apply is the heavenly one. Jerusalem has been raised up, as Isaiah had said it would be. [Isaiah 2:1-3]

Jesus said, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." [Luke 21:24] This is the captivity foretold by the prophets. Joel spoke of it; [Joel 3:1, 3, 6] Zechariah said, "half of the city shall go forth into captivity." [Zechariah 14:2] But this prophecy was not fulfilled in 70 AD; instead, the entire city was captured. It applies to the heavenly city, not the earthly one; people have been taken captive in sects, and cults, and denominations, and they are captive to various flawed interpretations and traditions.

Jesus warned his disciples to watch; he warned about thieves, and becoming victims of theft. Peter said, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night." [2 Peter 3:10] Jesus spoke of our spiritual house being broken up, and the loss of potential eternal rewards. This is the house he spoke of in the sermon on the mount, when he compared the person who did what he taught to a man who built his house on a rock. [Matthew 7:24]  Jesus said: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." [Matthew 24:43]

When we compare what he said here to other prophecies, the members of the army described in Joel "climb up upon the houses," and "enter in at the windows like a thief." The hordes of Gog and Magog seek "To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land." [Ezekiel 38:12] Zechariah said, "thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee." [Zechariah 14:1]

According to these prophecies, the saints have been "spoiled" in some fashion, by the invading armies. Evidently, there are spiritual blessings available that they are missing. Some of the gifts of the spirit are absent; the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Luke 21:24] Compare with Revelation 11:2, "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Mountains are very prominent in the Olivet Discourse. The mount of Olives gives its name to the prophecy. Jesus said, when you see the abomination of desolation, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." [Matthew 24:16]

Most people reading this think he meant, flee for self-preservation. But Jesus also said, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." [Luke 17:33] Clearly his warning to flee to the mountains was not for self-preservation.

Joel wrote: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim." [Joel 3:18]

When Jesus spoke of new wine in his parable, it represented new teaching, and new understanding. [Matthew 9:17] The mountains of Israel represent revelations of God, and promises, and covenants. The promises of God are the mountains that Jesus meant we should flee to.

Ezekiel said an enemy had claimed the mountains as a possession, and had made them desolate, and swallowed them up on every side, so they were "taken up in the lips of talkers," and were "an infamy of the people." They had become "a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about." [Ezekiel 36:2-4]

God promised that the mountains would "shoot forth branches," and "yield fruit to my people of Israel." "I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it."

These mountains represent the invisible spiritual things promised to the saints. Understanding prophecy is one of them. The enemy will be overcome. "And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD." [Ezekiel 38:21]

Another feature of the Olivet Discourse, that this prophecy shares with other prophecies, is that it refers to clouds. Christ is revealed "coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." [Matthew 24:30]

Clouds and thick darkness are associated with "a great people and a strong," in Joel 2:2. The hordes of Gog and Magog "come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days." [Ezekiel 38:16]

John wrote, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." [Revelation 1:7] Peter described false teachers as "clouds that are carried with a tempest." [2 Peter 2:17] Similarly, Jude wrote: "clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots." [Jude 1:12]

These contrast with clouds such as Zechariah described, bright clouds, that give showers of rain, the rain representing the word of God. "Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field." [Zechariah 10:1]

Jesus said, "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn." [Matthew 24:30] This is about universal repentance. Joel wrote, "Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:" [Joel 2:12] "Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?" [Joel 2:17]

Zechariah said, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." [Zechariah 12:10] The ones who pierced him are not Jews who lived in the first century, but everyone who truly repents. Isaiah said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." [Isaiah 53:5]

Doug

[reFORMer]

As the more accurate Concordant Literal Translation quoted below indicates, it is not, "all the tribes of the earth (or, entire world,) rather it is, "all the tribes of the land" (ie., "land" of Israel.")

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory." (Matthew 24³⁰; Concordant Literal Translation)

Moreover, Jesus Himself says:
"Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." (Matthew 24³⁴; Concordant Literal Translation)

(I think we may have to form another thread.  Nothing like eschatology to derail a topic!  Let's get back to, "How Prophecy Was Sealed."

[Doug]

As the more accurate Concordant Literal Translation quoted below indicates, it is not, "all the tribes of the earth (or, entire world,) rather it is, "all the tribes of the land" (ie., "land" of Israel.")

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory." (Matthew 24³⁰; Concordant Literal Translation)

I think the Greek for "tribes of the earth" is the same as in Revelation 1:7. "Ge" can be translated either "earth" or "land;" we have words like "geology" and "geography" which are based on the Greek word for earth. In most translations the meaning seems to include far more than the tiny area of Palestine, although some preterists apparently prefer to read it in the more local and limited sense. But IMO, that destroys the meaning, in either or both passages. How can "every eye" not be universal?

		Matthew 24:30		Revelation 1:7
KJV		and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn		and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
NIV		And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn		and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him."
Young		and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,		and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land.
NKJV		and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,		and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.
NASB		and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn		and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.
Wycliffe		and then all the kindreds of the earth shall wail		and each eye shall see him, and they that pricked him; and all the kindreds of the earth shall bewail themselves on him
Holman		and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn		and every eye will see Him, including those who pierced Him. And all the families of the earth will mourn over Him.
Weymouth		and then will all the nations of the earth lament		and every eye will see Him, and so will those who pierced Him; and all the nations of the earth will gaze on Him and mourn.

Moreover, Jesus Himself says:
"Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." (Matthew 24³⁴; Concordant Literal Translation)

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever. And this is how he continues to "confirm the covenant," spoken of in Daniel 9:17. The week includes his three and a half year ministry, plus a symbolic three and a half years, symbol of the whole age of the church. It must be symbolic since it is the time in which he builds his church, the temple built without hands, and the city whose builder and maker is God. Earthly time units do not apply to the work of God.   

Doug

[Molly]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

yes!  I totally agree.  That word refers to a type or a kind, as in, each after its own kind.

[this] "generation"
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; "kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.


PS I loved your long post above, Doug.

[Doug]

PS I loved your long post above, Doug.

Good for you.

You may be interested in this too: http://tiny.cc/2zome

Doug

[WhiteWings]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected  Jesus is another generation.

[jabcat]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected  Jesus is another generation.

Tony, have you read this?  Gary's NOT a full preterist, yet he, as I, believe some very significant things happened in 70 AD that need to be taken into account.

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

[WhiteWings]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected  Jesus is another generation.

Tony, have you read this?  Gary's NOT a full preterist, yet he, as I, believe some very significant things happened in 70 AD that need to be taken into account.

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

I didn't. Is punishment awaiting now? :winkgrin:
Maybe you should start a new thread about that article.
I'm not saying it's flawed but I can't accept Gary's view until some things are cleared up :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected  Jesus is another generation.

Tony, have you read this?  Gary's NOT a full preterist, yet he, as I, believe some very significant things happened in 70 AD that need to be taken into account.

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html

I didn't. Is punishment awaithing now? :winkgrin:
Maybe you should start a new thread about that article.
I'm not saying it's flawed but I can't accept Gary's view until some things are cleared up :winkgrin:

You can start it if you want.  You may have some specific questions/points to make.  :thumbsup:

At least it's more to consider in the whole discussion, and I think this article is just a quick summary, with many lines to be filled in.  For instance, I still personally expect Jesus to return as He ushers in the next age.  This may be all I have to say about it for now, still, I believe 70 A.D. was extremely significant and is often over-looked.   :2c:   

[Molly]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected  Jesus is another generation.

Or the only one to die of that generation?


Galatians 3:13: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, ...

The curse of the law is death.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe this is of some use to someone:
The priests on regular bases heard a voice/voices coming from the Holy of Holies.
In 67, 68 or 69 AD they heard "Hence we depart"
I have to look up the exact year if it;s of interest to someone.
(the Jewish revolt began in 66

[WhiteWings]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected  Jesus is another generation.

Or the only one to die of that generation?


Galatians 3:13: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, ...

The curse of the law is death.

I always wonder when exactly that 'new system' started.
Death? Resurrection? Pentecost? When the temple op stone and wood was destroyed?

[Molly]

Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.

If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected  Jesus is another generation.

Or the only one to die of that generation?


Galatians 3:13: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, ...

The curse of the law is death.

I always wonder when exactly that 'new system' started.
Death? Resurrection? Pentecost? When the temple op stone and wood was destroyed?

Here?

21 He began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

--Luke 4

[Molly]

Maybe this is of some use to someone:
The priests on regular bases heard a voice/voices coming from the Holy of Holies.
In 67, 68 or 69 AD they heard "Hence we depart"
I have to look up the exact year if it;s of interest to someone.
(the Jewish revolt began in 66

Yes, that is very interesting.

Here's what Gary said in his article:


"The majority of the Jews read the signs wrong, which produced their destruction. There was a small group who read them right. They escaped the destruction and were allowed to enter into a new period of time. The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria. They were believers in the Messiah. "


I'd like to know more about that, too.