Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks was intended to seal up prophecy, so it would not be understood by most of the world, but only by those who Daniel refers to as the "wise." The sealing up of Daniel's prophecies is mentioned in Daniel 12:4, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
To "seal up the vision and prophecy" was one of the things the 70 weeks in Daniel 9 were to accomplish.
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel was told that the prophecies he was given were not to be understood till the end of the age, at which time the wise would understand, but none of the wicked.
Daniel 12:8-10
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
How does the 70 weeks prophecy seal up other prophecies? One of the most common mistakes people make when interpreting this prophecy is to assume that the three sections of the prophecy all have the same units. The prophecy consists of three parts, which are groups of "sevens." These sevens are usually called "weeks." The prophecy does not say what kind of sevens they are, and no time units are mentioned at all.
Dispensationalists insist that all the 70 "sevens" or weeks are years, so that the prophecy consists of 490 years, and then they insert a gap of thousands of years between the 69th and the 70th week, to make the 70th week future. This style of interpretation, while it is followed by many, is seriously flawed. I suggest those who follow the doctrine of the dispensationalists have been deceived, and dispensationalism has helped fulfil Daniel's prophecy that "none of the wicked shall understand."
If the units in the three sections of the prophecy can differ, what might they be? The first two sections span the time from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the appearance of the Messiah. This decree was given by Cyrus in the first year of his reign, the year 538 BC. In fact, the prophet Isaiah said the Cyrus would be the one to issue the decree.
Isaiah 44:23-28
23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
The statement in the last verse quoted above shows that Cyrus, the Persian king who captured Babylon, would give the word or the decree to build Jerusalem, and the temple. This points to a date of 538 BC for the beginning of the 70 weeks prophecy. But using that start date, and taking the units in the first two sections as ordinary years, does not work out; it points to a date of about 48 BC for the coming of the Messiah, and no Messiah appeared at that time.
If the units in the first seven weeks are taken to be leap years, having an extra month, which occurred every second or third year in the Hebrew and Babylonian calendars, the first section, of 49 leap years, would span 133 years. Taking the units in the second section to be regular years, the second section is 62x7, or 434 years. Thus the first two sections together span 567 years, which fits the time from the decree of Cyrus to the coming of Christ in 28 AD precisely. This amazing fact was hidden from the Bible scholars, and the "wise" of the world, and it demonstrates how Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy has sealed up prophecy, as while the 70 weeks prophecy is one of the most studied and best known of all the prophecies in the Bible, and has been studied carefully for thousands of years, it was not fully understood. As Daniel foretold, "the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."
The 70th week has also been misunderstood by many, and especially by dispensationalists. This last week is the time in which Christ confirms his covenant with his saints, which of course is the New Covenant or the gospel. The 70th week is not a literal seven years, but it corresponds to "seven times," and for its interpretation, we may consider the four periods of "seven times" mentioned in Leviticus 26. These are referred to as the "curse" in Daniel 9:11, where Daniel says in his prayer of confession that the curse of the law of Moses had been poured out upon Israel. This must refer to the first of the four periods of seven times, which was poured out on the Jews during their captivity in Babylon. The three sections in the prophecy of the 70 weeks correspond to the other three periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26. In the last of these, God would remember his covenant with Abraham, and become reconciled to Israel.
The 70th week corresponds to the last of the four periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26. In both of these periods, God's covenant with Abraham is confirmed, which is what Christ came to accomplish.
The 70th week is when Christ "confirms the covenant with many." Paul identified God's covenant with Abraham as the gospel in Galatians 3:8; Christ's "week" of confirming the covenant began when he was baptized by John the Baptist. God's promise to remember his covenant with Abraham was mentioned in a prophecy given by John's father Zacharias.
Luke 1:67-75
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
One thing to notice is that there can be no gap in the 70 weeks, such as the one proposed by dispensationalists, as the four periods of "seven times" correspond to the duration of the curse in Leviticus, and in Daniel, to the duration of the desolation of Jerusalem. A gap would imply a lapse in the curse, and that God was temporarily reconciled to his people. But that has not happened; any reconciliation between God and his people must be permanent.
Daniel 9:27 shows that the abolition of sacrifices and oblations was to occur "in the midst of the week." It occurred as a result of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. But the last half-week continues, as Christ still confirms his covenant with us. The final half of the 70th week is the "time, times, and a half," and is symbolic, and includes the entire time of the church, in which the gospel goes to the world. It is the duration of the age in which we are now.
Other prophecies in the Bible refer to the "time, times, and a half," in various ways. It is mentioned in Revelation 12:14, where the woman, who represents the church, flees to the wilderness for that period of time. It is referred to in the same chapter as 1,260 days, and also in Revelation 11:3. And the references to 42 months in Revelation 11:2, and 13:5, are to the same prophetic time period. These are some of the ways that Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks seals other prophecies of the Bible. Understanding the 70 weeks prophecy opens up several other prophecies that have been previously obscure.
Doug
I know this is a couple months old, but I'd like to throw a few things out on it anyway. For me, it's kind of like the other thread that questioned whether or not things literally happened as Old Testament passages depict. And this really is the same pattern as that in that it "was" meant to be understood literally to those to whom it was literally written to.
There was a definite beginning to this 490 years as explained in Daniel.
Daniel 9:25
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
It began by the decree of a natural king who held them in captivity at the time. God used a natural man to release a spiritual plan upon a natural nation. 7 weeks added to threescore and two is 69 weeks. This really is uncanny when you do take the time to really and ACCURATELY get into the literal understanding of what was actually going on. But the 69 weeks was actually the preparation for what Jesus was about to do on the 70th week.
And using the week = year principle, you can actually follow the timeline from the day king Cyrus actually issued the decree. That's what moved Daniel to pray, he was reading the prophecy of Jerimiah regarding this and what Danile recorded was the response to the prayer. This is why the books of Ezra and Nehemiah are so important. They are documenting the rebuilding of both the temple and the city. From the decree given, this timetable of the 70 weeks began.
Ezra 5
13'However, (A)in the first year of Cyrus king of Babylon, King Cyrus (B)issued a decree to rebuild this house of God.
If there is a beginning, there is also an ending.
Daniel 9
26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be (AZ)cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will (BA)destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a (BB)flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of (BC)abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a (BD)complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate
When Jesus came on the scene, Israel was not it's own nation. They were governed by Rome. That all actually began at the end of the 62 weeks which is 434 years after the original decree was given. (62 x 7 = 434) From then until Jesus it would be another
49 years (the remaining 7 of the 69 years, 7 x7 = 49)
Then Jesus ministry begins. Not his birth, but his ministry. Do you know what the year of Jubilee is? It's the year following the 49th Sabbath year. I'm beginning to feel like Cardinal here just a little bit. Okay, at the beginning of the 70th week, the last set of 7's a firm covenant was made to many for one week which is what Jesus' ministry did.
"But wait . . .Jesus ministry didn't last seven years . . ." And that's absolutely right, but it's also exactly what the prophecy says. 27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. Jesus ministry went for 3 1/2 years before he was murdered. But it was also when the sacrifices ended. Thus the tearing of the veil.
So there are still 3 1/2 years left that are unaccounted for.
Nuts . . .I'm at work and my break is over . . .I'll finish this in a bit.
To finish the thought of where I left off . . .3 1/2 days of the 70th week are still unaccounted for. The crucifixion was the event that interrupted the last week. In the 70th week, the firm covenant was the New Covenant Jesus brought upon his shoulders. His message was originally to who? That's the same thing the 70 weeks were set aside for. The ministry of Jesus originally came to the Jews.
Daniel 9
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
This is what Jesus was declaring from the cross when he said "It is finished". He finished the transgression. He put an end to sin. He atoned for our wickedness and he brought in everlasting righteousness. And for me, the sealing up was not closing away, but fulfilling "in" him. I like the way the Message translation puts this verse.
24 "'Seventy sevens are set for your people and for your holy city to throttle rebellion, stop sin, wipe out crime, set things right forever, confirm what the prophet saw, and anoint The Holy of Holies
Jeremiah could very well be simply saying when the Messiah comes, he will fulfill what he, the prophet, Jeremiah was seeing and saying. Either way, Jesus did all of that in the middle of the last week. But even though he stopped the sacrifices and he died, there were still 3 1/2 years where there was still a time-line unfolding for the Jews alone . . primarily.
It's even recorded as to when this changed. it began when Peter fell asleep with an appetite and saw the sheet come down to him. Up to that point remember it wasn't even lawful for a Jew to congregate with a Gentile. But yet, Peter experienced the change. He saw with his own eyes the spirit poured out upon the Gentiles. There was a shifting already taking place. The act that sealed it and ended the 70 week prophecy came with the murdering of the "1st" martyr.
The last thing Stephen said before he gave up his spirit was that he saw Jesus . .not seated, but standing. Positioning is everything. I believe the reason why he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God and not seated at the right hand of God is because this event was the culmination of 490 years of promise. Later in Scripture we find Christ is once again seated at the right hand with the Father.
But for me, the 70 weeks definitely does have a literal application and Jesus fulfilled it literally to the letter. And no, there was no break of 2000 years or any break of any kind.
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2010, 07:00:26 PM
27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of (BC)abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a (BD)complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate
When Jesus came on the scene, Israel was not it's own nation. They were governed by Rome. That all actually began at the end of the 62 weeks which is 434 years after the original decree was given. (62 x 7 = 434) From then until Jesus it would be another
49 years (the remaining 7 of the 69 years, 7 x7 = 49)
Then Jesus ministry begins. Not his birth, but his ministry. Do you know what the year of Jubilee is? It's the year following the 49th Sabbath year. I'm beginning to feel like Cardinal here just a little bit. Okay, at the beginning of the 70th week, the last set of 7's a firm covenant was made to many for one week which is what Jesus' ministry did.
"But wait . . .Jesus ministry didn't last seven years . . ." And that's absolutely right, but it's also exactly what the prophecy says. 27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. Jesus ministry went for 3 1/2 years before he was murdered. But it was also when the sacrifices ended. Thus the tearing of the veil.
So there are still 3 1/2 years left that are unaccounted for.
Hmm.. The sacrifices and oblations ceased when the temple was destroyed, which was 70 AD. So, that event must have occurred "in the midst of the week." The 70th "week" continues today. It corresponds to the last of the four periods of "seven times" in Leviticus 26, in which God is reconciled to Israel. The last half-week, called "a time, times, and a half," spans the entire period since the crucifixion. It is also the age in which the "little horn" of Daniel 7 dominates the saints. [Daniel 7:25] Its "eyes like the eyes of a man" suggest it represents a "human point-of-view."
Your approach, that the last half-week is a
literal three and a half years, implies the 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled, without any of the apostles of the Lord being aware of it. But, how likely is that, considering that they had the Spirit, wrote scripture, and some among them had the gift of prophecy, etc?
Doug
This is partly why it's difficult to emphasize the natural implications only. There's a lot left to the "unknown". Who's to say the disciples "didn't" know it was the fulfillment of the 70 weeks? But at the same time, it's simply another event that literally took place that the most one can do with it is observe and imagine. If my observation is accurate, now what? If my observation is not accurate . .same question.
This kinda falls back on the other thread where the question was raised about the benefit of debates. If all they are is disputing points of view then I'm not accomplishing much. But if debating the natural things lead us into seeing the spiritual principles then we've accomplished much. So what would be the implications of the 70 weeks spiritually?
As I was laying out what I saw, what struck me the most was that the 70th week was the year of Jubilee. That is where the quickening was in that it led to the very thing Christ proclaimed the moment he left the wilderness in power, he went to the temple and gave notice to the religious system that change was coming. All debts were about to be paid in full. The year of Jubilee had arrived and it wasn't just about a span of time, but it was about the nature of God manifesting redemption to man.
7 as even traditional mainline churches understand, is the number of completion and fulfillment. 10 is the number of law. This event transpiring had much deeper qualities to it than meet the eye. The fulfillment of law had come. Again, Jesus proclaimed that as well. He didn't come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it.
I guess the reason why I choose to believe to see it as I explained it is because as I saw it coming together, nothing was left out of place. There really "is" a change of emphasis in Acts where the targeted group of people went from Jew to Gentile and at the introductory of the 70 week thing in Daniel, it specifically stated that it was established to focus on Jews only . . .which is just what Jesus ministry did. But then when the emphasis went to Gentile . . .it could only mean one thing, the time set aside for Jews only had come to an end.
The other literal issue to this is . . .how did the priests continue to carry out their sacrificial duties if the veil, the most sacred artical that separated God's glory from the labors of the church . . .was now opened for all the world to see?? And is there any "proof" that they actually "did" continue in their sacrifices?
I'm just curious really. Not looking to prove or disprove. I just always assumed they carried on with their sacrifices . . . but to my knowledge, Scripture never really mentions that they did.
Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 03:46:01 PM
This is partly why it's difficult to emphasize the natural implications only. There's a lot left to the "unknown". Who's to say the disciples "didn't" know it was the fulfillment of the 70 weeks? But at the same time, it's simply another event that literally took place that the most one can do with it is observe and imagine. If my observation is accurate, now what? If my observation is not accurate . .same question.
How can a "week" be a "year"? That makes no sense!
There is some evidence the ministry of John the Baptist began in a sabbatical year of the 7 year cycle. This was supported in an article by Ben Zion Wacholder, Professor of Talmud and Rabbinics at Hebrew Union College, Cincinnati, Ohio.
It would fit the idea of the 62 weeks being 7-year sabbatical cycles.
The first section of 7 weeks, IMO, are best understood as 49 leap years, with an extra month. 49 of them span 133 years. With this approach, the 70 weeks begin with the decree of Cyrus, 538 BC, and the first two sections end in 27-28 AD, the period when John the Baptist was preaching in the wilderness.
See my "70 Weeks Calculator," where you can try various start dates for calculating the 70 weeks.
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/calc70a.html
Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 03:46:01 PM
This kinda falls back on the other thread where the question was raised about the benefit of debates. If all they are is disputing points of view then I'm not accomplishing much. But if debating the natural things lead us into seeing the spiritual principles then we've accomplished much. So what would be the implications of the 70 weeks spiritually?
Perhaps it is as Daniel said, they "sealed up" prophecy so it would not be understood till the end time.
Doug
I really enjoyed what you shared Nathan... I had never heard that before and I thought you brought up some interesting points regarding Stephen.
QuoteHow can a "week" be a "year"? That makes no sense!
I think Nathan's calculations were a day for a year - 70 weeks = 490 years is a day for a year.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Prophetic language seldom means what it literally says. It's intended to be spiritually applied before it can be naturally observed.
Yes I agree. I was merely pointing out why we can apply the "day" for a "year" in prophetic interpretation.
The 69 th week is exactly at His baptism
:2c:
Quote from: Nathan on February 14, 2011, 07:56:06 PM
Prophetic language seldom means what it literally says. It's intended to be spiritually applied before it can be naturally observed.
Good! :bigGrin: :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 14, 2011, 11:08:08 PM
The 69 th week is exactly at His baptism
:2c:
That's reasonable, and it would fit the statements of Jesus about "the acceptable year of the Lord," being in that year.
At the synagogue in Nazareth, where he had been brought up, Jesus read from the book of Isaiah a prophecy that refers to "the acceptable year of the Lord," which Jesus said was fulfilled on that very day.
Luke 4:17-22
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
What was special about that particular year? The "acceptable year of the Lord" was the year that Jesus began his ministry. It has to do with the beginning of the last of the four periods of seven times in Leviticus 26, when God would be reconciled to Israel.
Luke 4:20-21
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
The occasion was during the first year of his ministry, soon after his baptism by John. It was after the first two sections of the prophecy of Daniel about the 70 weeks had been fulfilled.
In his prayer of confession, Daniel referred to the covenant.
Daniel 9:4
And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
At the end of the first two sections of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, the Messiah would appear.
Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
During the 70th week, Daniel said, Christ would "confirm the covenant with many for one week." [vs. 27]
The word "covenant" refers to all the revelations and promises of God. Examples are:
* the "everlasting covenant" which is represented by a rainbow; [Genesis 9:16]
* God's covenant with Abraham represented by circumcision, [Genesis 17:4-10] which was to be established with Isaac; [Genesis 17:18-19]
* the Sabbath; [Exodus 31:16]
* the Mosaic legislation; [Jeremiah 34:13-14]
* the "sure mercies of David;" [Isaiah 55:3]
* the regular succession of day and night; [Jeremiah 33:20-22]
* etc.
The covenant includes the promises; the promise of the land, which Abraham did not receive in his lifetime, was the basis for his confidence in a resurrection. Paul said the covenant had been confirmed to Abraham. [Galatians 3:17] He used this as the basis of his argument about the role of the law which was given centuries later.
All the promises of God are included in the covenant that Christ confirms with the saints in the 70th week; and it includes his righteous life, that was offered up as a sacrifice to take away the sin of the world.
Daniel said:
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,...
The "midst of the week" includes the death of Jesus on the cross, and the end of the sacrificial system, when the city and temple were destroyed.
Jesus was baptized during the ministry of John the Baptist. The date for the beginning of John's ministry was given by Luke.
Luke 3:1-3
Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
The first year of Tiberius was 14 AD. So we have:
1st year of Tiberius 14 AD
2nd year of Tiberius 15 AD
3rd year of Tiberius 16 AD
4th year of Tiberius 17 AD
5th year of Tiberius 18 AD
6th year of Tiberius 19 AD
7th year of Tiberius 20 AD
8th year of Tiberius 21 AD
9th year of Tiberius 22 AD
10th year of Tiberius 23 AD
11th year of Tiberius 24 AD
12th year of Tiberius 25 AD
13th year of Tiberius 26 AD
14th year of Tiberius 27 AD
15th year of Tiberius 28 AD
The year 28 AD was the start of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. It also began a new sabbatical cycle. It was when Jesus read from Isaiah's prophecy in the synagogue at Nazareth on a sabbath day. Jesus said:
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
The year 28 AD marked the beginning of a new era, the seven times of the reconciliation of God with his people, when God remembers his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Leviticus 26:42
Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
The 70th week is the week when Jesus confirms the covenant. It began in 28 AD.
Beginning with the decree of Cyrus, the first two sections of the 70 weeks work out correctly to 28 AD, when the first 7 weeks are 49 leap years having an extra month. Seven weeks of leap years spans 133 years. The second section is 62 x 7 = 434 years, and together that is 567 years, the time from the decree of Cyrus in 538 BC, to the beginning of the ministry of Jesus in 28 AD.
Some claim that the fulfillment of the first 69 weeks occurred at the end of the ministry of Jesus, rather than the beginning of it, but their interpretations require one or more gaps, and some offer dubious manipulations of historical dates, or spurious schemes contrived in order to get the dates to work out to the year of the crucifixion, which was probably 30 AD.
Daniel said, of the 70th week, "In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." [vs. 27, NIV]
This seems to mean the Mosaic temple sacrifices. They ended when the temple was destroyed, in 70 AD. So that must be the middle of the seven, which makes sense, since the first three and a half years were natural, but the last three and a half years apply to the heavenly Jerusalem, and so are symbolic. Earth days, earth months, earth years do not apply to things divine and spiritual. Rather, they are symbols or types.
The 69th week ended in 28 AD, if one counts from the decree of Cyrus, 538 BC, and if leap years are used in the first section, of 7 weeks. This avoids invoking a gap between the end of the 70 years of Jeremiah, and the beginning of the 70 weeks. In fact, Daniel said the "curse" written in the Law of Moses had been poured out, Daniel 9:11, which alludes to the curse that is outlined in Leviticus 26. This consisted of four periods of seven times. In the last of the four periods of seven times, God would be reconciled to his people.
The beginning of the last of the four periods of seven times, the one during which God would be reconciled to his people, was the "acceptable year of the Lord," that Jesus referred to.
If the captivity in Babylon was the first of these four periods of "seven times," the three sections of the 70 weeks correspond to the remaining three periods of seven times. There can be no gap in the curse, as that would imply that God was temporarily reconciled to Israel. The curse does not lapse, and resume again. Any reconciliation with God is a permanent one.
The 70 years of Jeremiah, plus the three sections of the 70 weeks, are the four periods of seven times described in Leviticus 26, and they are continuous, right to the end of the age, and "the times of restitution of all things."
Acts 3:20
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Doug
Quote from: Beth on February 13, 2011, 08:46:25 PM
I really enjoyed what you shared Nathan... I had never heard that before and I thought you brought up some interesting points regarding Stephen.
QuoteHow can a "week" be a "year"? That makes no sense!
I think Nathan's calculations were a day for a year - 70 weeks = 490 years is a day for a year.
I think my comment quoted above was in response to this statement by Nathan:
Quote from: Nathanwhat struck me the most was that the 70th week was the year of Jubilee.
The 70th week may have been the beginning of a 7 year sabbatical cycle. But it is a "week" of some kind; that is, "seven times" where the units of "times" is not stated. They turn out to be years, but there are two kinds; real years, and symbolic ones. The first half-week, of course, is the ministry of Jesus. Those are natural years. The last half-week is represented by a three and a half years that is represented by various numbers of days: 1,335, 1,290, 1,260, and three and a half. They imply years that are not natural. In a real three and a half years, the number of days is about 1,278 for solar years; and about 1,240 for 42 months. If a leap year is included, then it is about 1,270 days. So for the last half-week, the prophetic numbers used to represent the three and a half years, 1,335 days, 1,290 days, and 1,260 days, do not correspond to literal years. The numbers not corresponding to reality indicates that they represent a symbolic and figurative period, to which earthly units do not apply. They are used for describing time schedules for building the heavenly Jerusalem, which is the city built "without hands." Its "builder and maker is God." [Hebrews 11:10]
Doug
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 14, 2011, 11:08:08 PM
The 69 th week is exactly at His baptism
:2c:
I like that!!!
QuoteI think my comment quoted above was in response to this statement by Nathan:
Quote from: Nathan
what struck me the most was that the 70th week was the year of Jubilee.
Thanks for clarifying that... I admit I wasn't sure what you were talking about which was why I responded. Obviously you've done a bit of studying on this subject, but I also admit, it is rather difficult for me to follow. I do agree the gap theory of 2,000 years is not "sound doctrine". I can see the connection you are making with Lev. 26, however, the calculations seem to be going over my head.
That a year is given for a day and a day for a year is from Moses.
The Seed, the head is planted in the midst of the week. The crop, His many membered body (His Spirit sent in His name from the throne having entered into them) is represented til the martyrdom of Steven at the end of the week. (???????)
Quote from: Doug on February 14, 2011, 11:49:29 PM
The 70th week may have been the beginning of a 7 year sabbatical cycle. But it is a "week" of some kind; that is, "seven times" where the units of "times" is not stated.
The other question: is it about the start or end of the 69th or 70th week?
I think the end of the 69th is baptism. End of 69th is of course the start of the 70th week. That's 1 week of ministry to the Jews. Halfway that week Jesus is cut off/dies. That's 3.5 year of ministry by Jesus. The other 3.5 years by His apostles.
When the 70th week ends the Gospel to the Genitles starts???
Why should a week only be either 7 days, months, years etc?
It just as well can be a double phropesy.
So when we use years we find very significant dates (see above)
But I think the 70 weeks can ALSO be Jubilee years.
But that's perhaps a bit of topic so please look here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_decending_dove_his_baptism_is_new_jerusalem_9156.0.html
Quote from: Beth...however, the calculations seem to be going over my head.
You're doing better than I am. The whole thing is going over my head.
I just want the bottom line--the [rough] date when Jesus is going to return to take over
the rule of this world.
Somebody give me a date. :laughing7:
Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 03:46:01 PMAs I was laying out what I saw, what struck me the most was that the 70th week was the year of Jubilee.
I think that's not true. The start of the 70th week was sabbath year. The end of that week is a regular year. The start of the 71th week is a sabbath year.
Most important events took place in a Sabbath year.
The Jubilee cycle causes much confusion. Some say it's 49 years others say 50 year.
I think it's possible both...
If I read quotes by Jews (historians) then a 49 year cycle seems to be real Jubilee cycle.
I would say the birth or death is of Jesus is some importance in Christianity....
But no Sabbath or Jubilee years on those years.
But if we take a 50 year cycle then things look different (still working on it)
Then we find multiples of 1000s all over the place.
I have some proof some event in Jesus life was on the year 4000 (4th day) since creation. I say some because it needs to be aligned to contradicting dates from secular sources.
Quote from: Beth on February 15, 2011, 04:10:04 AM
Obviously you've done a bit of studying on this subject, but I also admit, it is rather difficult for me to follow. I do agree the gap theory of 2,000 years is not "sound doctrine". I can see the connection you are making with Lev. 26, however, the calculations seem to be going over my head.
In Daniel 12:7 a swearing angel declares that when the time period called "a time, times and a half" is fulfilled, all the things in Daniel's prophecies will be fulfilled. This period, then, must extend to the end of the age, and to the resurrection of the saints. At the end of the chapter he gives two numbers, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, that are somehow connected with the "time, times and a half." [Daniel 12:11-12]
I mentioned previously that these numbers do not fit any real, earthly three and a half years. The same is true of the 1,260 days that John introduces in Revelation. But they all fit the pattern of "a time, times and a half," or three and a half symbolic years, where months are 30 days, and there are various combinations of regular years of 12 months, and leap years of 13 months.
1,335 days = 12 x 30 + 2 x 13 x 30 + 13 x 30 / 2
1,290 days = 13 x 30 + 2 x 12 x 30 + 12 x 30 / 2
1,260 days = 12 x 30 + 2 x 12 x 30 + 12 x 30 / 2
These all represent an "unreal" or non-literal three and a half years.
Now we need to consider why these numbers, which seem to allude to three and a half years, have an
unreal character. The explanation is because they apply to things that are
spiritual, rather than to the
earthly Jerusalem. The first two sections of the 70 weeks, the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks, apply to the
earthly Jerusalem. The first half of the last week, that represents the ministry of Jesus, does also. These times are all natural years. But the last half-week applies to the
heavenly city,
Isaiah said, Mount Zion and Jerusalem would be raised up, to the tops of the mountains [Isa. 2:1-3] and in the New Testament, Jerusalem is located in
heaven. So Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled.
Hebrews 12:22-23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
This is also seen in Galatians 4:26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
The "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25 & 12:7, and Revelation 12:14 apply to the heavenly Jerusalem, the Church. When Christ ascended to heaven, the Jerusalem to which Daniel's prophecy applies was the heavenly city which is the saints. Thus it is invalid to apply those numbers to the
earthly city of Jerusalem. The times that apply to the
heavenly city are not like the previous ones; the units are symbolic. The 1,335 days, the 1,290 days, the 1,260 days represent the diminishing time remaining for the age of the church, the last half week of the 70th week, when Christ continues to confirm the covenant with his saints. He reigns in the heavenly Jerusalem, which is a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. And so the time units for its duration are not given in terms of earthly years, or months, or days, but in divine language, that is, in symbolic units.
The "time, time and a half" represents the whole age of the church, and the expression also applies to the remaining part of it. The three days and a half of Revelation 11:11 fits the same pattern. Below, I have listed the numbers in decreasing order. The largest one is the 1,335 days. It is the time for which the angel says, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Daniel 12:12] This seems to refer to Christ, the bridegroom who waits for his bride, and the marriage supper, at the end of the age. Next is the 1,290 days. It represents the remaining time after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the sacrifices are taken away. The end of the sacrificial system was in 70 AD. After that is a smaller number, 1,260 days, representing the remaining time, after John wrote the book of Revelation, probably in the last decade of the first century AD. And near the end of the church age, there is a short period, which he represents by 3.5 days, when the two witnesses are lying like corpses in the street.
Time, times and a half
_____________________________________________________
| |
| 1,335 days |
|_____________________________________________________|
| |
| 1,290 days |
|___________________________________________________|
| |
| 1,260 days |
|________________________________________________|
| |
| 3.5 days |
|____________|
All these numbers are symbolic, and apply to the heavenly city, where time is not determined by the period of the earth's rotation, or by the period of its orbit around the sun; Jesus said, heaven is God's throne, and earth his footstool. Would God order his works according to things happening in his footstool? The units of days, and years, and times, when they apply to heavenly and spiritual things, are not earthly units. That is why, I think, the character of the last half-week of the 70 weeks differs from the previous 69.5 weeks.
Doug
Quote from: reFORMer on February 15, 2011, 07:32:43 AM
That a year is given for a day and a day for a year is from Moses.
The Seed, the head is planted in the midst of the week. The crop, His many membered body (His Spirit sent in His name from the throne having entered into them) is represented til the martyrdom of Steven at the end of the week. (???????)
A bit of history, from Paul:
Galatians 1:15-24
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
And they glorified God in me.
Galatians 2:1-2
Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
There are two trips to Jerusalem mentioned above. The first three years after Paul's conversion, mentioned in Acts 9:26. The second visit was 14 years after his conversion. It is the one described in Acts 11:29-30.
Acts 11:27-30
And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
Notice that this visit was "by revelation." Prophets had come and foretold a famine.
While Paul and Barnabas were in Jerusalem, Herod Agrippa died. [Acts 12:23]
After that, Paul returned from Jerusalem. [Acts 12:25]
The death of Herod Agrippa occurred in 44 AD. The visit to Jerusalem was said to have occurred 14 years after Paul was converted. It is likely that the counting was inclusive (see note below), thus Paul was converted in the year 31 AD. Before that, he persecuted the church. And Stephen's death occurred
before Paul's conversion. [Acts 7:58] So clearly, the death of Stephen was not the end of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, as Stephen must have died in 31 AD.
Doug
NoteInclusive counting is usually encountered when counting days in a calendar. Normally when counting "8" days from Sunday, Monday will be day 1, Tuesday day 2, and the following Monday will be the eighth day. When counting "inclusively," the Sunday (the start day) will be day 1 and therefore the following Sunday will be the eighth day. For example, the French phrase for "fortnight" is quinze jours (15 days), and similar words are present in Greek (δεκαπενθήμερο, dekapenthímero), Spanish (quincena) and Portuguese (quinzena). This practice appears in other calendars as well; in the Roman calendar the nones (meaning "nine") is 8 days before the ides; and in the Christian calendar Quinquagesima (meaning 50) is 49 days before Easter Sunday.
The Jewish people also counted inclusively. For instance, Jesus announced he would die and resurrect "on the third day," i.e. two days later. Scholars most commonly place his crucifixion on a Friday afternoon and his resurrection on Sunday before sunrise, spanning three different days but a period of around 36–40 hours.[citation needed]
Musical terminology also uses inclusive counting of intervals between notes of the standard scale: going up one note is a second interval, going up two notes is a third interval, etc., and going up seven notes is an octave.
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting")
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 15, 2011, 12:33:50 PM
Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 03:46:01 PMAs I was laying out what I saw, what struck me the most was that the 70th week was the year of Jubilee.
I think that's not true. The start of the 70th week was sabbath year. The end of that week is a regular year. The start of the 71th week is a sabbath year.
Most important events took place in a Sabbath year.
The Jubilee cycle causes much confusion. Some say it's 49 years others say 50 year.
I think it's possible both...
If I read quotes by Jews (historians) then a 49 year cycle seems to be real Jubilee cycle.
I would say the birth or death is of Jesus is some importance in Christianity....
But no Sabbath or Jubilee years on those years.
But if we take a 50 year cycle then things look different (still working on it)
Then we find multiples of 1000s all over the place.
I have some proof some event in Jesus life was on the year 4000 (4th day) since creation. I say some because it needs to be aligned to contradicting dates from secular sources.
Whoa!! I stand corrected. You are right WW, it is the 50th year that is the year of Jubilee . . .however, what Jesus proclaimed in the temple . . .the favorable year of the Lord . . .and understanding that the Sabbath is a depiction of Jesus himself and not only is he just the fullness of days which is what the number 7 is connected to concerning the Sabbath day, but he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . .the King of kings, the Lord of lords . . .we are the Lords and Kings He is Lord and King over. And we are the Sabbath's that He is Sabbath "of". He is the Sabbath "of" Sabbaths, which is the Jubilee.
So I would "still" say that the last day of the 70th week and the year of Jubilee could very well have fallen on the same year as God's patterns have no loose ends, everything is folded into everything. Just as the 3rd day and the 7th day are the same day . . .Jesus proclaimed the "favorable year" of the Lord . . .not a literal day, but a spiritual experience had come. What we see Scripture to portray in the literal sense, God was revealing what he'd already done in the spiritual sense.
70 weeks . . .490 years were set aside for the Jews ONLY . . .Gentiles were left out of it. Jubilee may have been established "in" the Jewish culture, but it affected Gentiles as well, but not the 70 weeks . .the 70 weeks were Jews Only. But once the 70 weeks were complete, the emphasis changed from Jew to Gentile . . .WW . . .there is a pinpoint event in Acts that subltly marks the end of the 70 weeks . . . it's when Scripture states that Stephen was the "first" martyr, that's why that particular event is so important in Acts. It is the milestone marker that brings closure to the focus of the Jew and turns to the day of the Gentile, the year of Jubilee had finally come to ALL men.
Acts starts out with Peter's ministry to the Jews, but at the stoning of Stephen, we are introduced to Saul, who later becomes Paul, who is the Patriarch of the New Testament sent to the Gentiles. The switch from Jew to Gentile is quite visible.
Quote from: Nathan on February 15, 2011, 04:46:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 15, 2011, 12:33:50 PM
Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 03:46:01 PMAs I was laying out what I saw, what struck me the most was that the 70th week was the year of Jubilee.
I think that's not true. The start of the 70th week was sabbath year. The end of that week is a regular year. The start of the 71th week is a sabbath year.
Most important events took place in a Sabbath year.
The Jubilee cycle causes much confusion. Some say it's 49 years others say 50 year.
I think it's possible both...
If I read quotes by Jews (historians) then a 49 year cycle seems to be real Jubilee cycle.
I would say the birth or death is of Jesus is some importance in Christianity....
But no Sabbath or Jubilee years on those years.
But if we take a 50 year cycle then things look different (still working on it)
Then we find multiples of 1000s all over the place.
I have some proof some event in Jesus life was on the year 4000 (4th day) since creation. I say some because it needs to be aligned to contradicting dates from secular sources.
Whoa!! I stand corrected. You are right WW, it is the 50th year that is the year of Jubilee . . .however, what Jesus proclaimed in the temple . . .the favorable year of the Lord . . .and understanding that the Sabbath is a depiction of Jesus himself and not only is he just the fullness of days which is what the number 7 is connected to concerning the Sabbath day, but he's the Sabbath of Sabbaths . . .the King of kings, the Lord of lords . . .we are the Lords and Kings He is Lord and King over. And we are the Sabbath's that He is Sabbath "of". He is the Sabbath "of" Sabbaths, which is the Jubilee.
Every Sabbath is a year of the Lord.
I don't have the details at hand but the diffrence is something like:
On a Sabbath and Jubilee years all debts are canceled but in a Jubilee year also slaves are set free.
There is a disagrement among scholars what years a Sabbath years. But the difference is only a year.
The Jubilee cycle is obviously linked to the Sabbath cycle but doesn't even come near teh date of the verse you mentioned.
The closed 49 year Jubilee cycle is 3.5 years after He died.
But POSSIBLY the 50 year cycle is on that date.
A day is like a 1000 years. Jesus ministry was around year 4000 or day 4.
80th Jubilee since creation
QuoteSo I would "still" say that the last day of the 70th week and the year of Jubilee could very well have fallen on the same year as God's patterns have no loose ends, everything is folded into everything.
But it would be equally logicial if not.
For example the start of His ministry is of lesser value than His resurrection. (I think)
So perhaps ministry=Sabbath and resurrection is 4th day (aka start of 5th day)
Carnally speaking we are now at Friday evening minutes before sunset.
J
Quoteust as the 3rd day and the 7th day are the same day . . .Jesus proclaimed the "favorable year" of the Lord . . .not a literal day, but a spiritual experience had come. What we see Scripture to portray in the literal sense, God was revealing what he'd already done in the spiritual sense.
70 weeks . . .490 years were set aside for the Jews ONLY . . .Gentiles were left out of it.
Didn't the Gospel to the Gentiles started at the start of week 71?
QuoteJubilee may have been established "in" the Jewish culture, but it affected Gentiles as well, but not the 70 weeks . .the 70 weeks were Jews Only. But once the 70 weeks were complete, the emphasis changed from Jew to Gentile . . .WW . . .there is a pinpoint event in Acts that subltly marks the end of the 70 weeks . . . it's when Scripture states that Stephen was the "first" martyr, that's why that particular event is so important in Acts. It is the milestone marker that brings closure to the focus of the Jew and turns to the day of the Gentile, the year of Jubilee had finally come to ALL men.
Seems I got my answer...
QuoteActs starts out with Peter's ministry to the Jews, but at the stoning of Stephen, we are introduced to Saul, who later becomes Paul, who is the Patriarch of the New Testament sent to the Gentiles. The switch from Jew to Gentile is quite visible.
That's what I always thought. I tend to find dates by secular records (no other choice with no dates in the Bible). That often is quite hard because most dates are "about".
But once I find one that falls on a special year and date I know enough.
BTW I think the dove at baptism was New Jerusalem....
Hi,
This may be a dumb question but does any one know how many Jubilees there has been up until now? Also, when does the next one start or end? If I am not mistaken, a Jubilee is 49 years.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 15, 2011, 07:36:14 PM
Hi,
This may be a dumb question but does any one know how many Jubilees there has been up until now? Also, when does the next one start or end? If I am not mistaken, a Jubilee is 49 years.
CHB
There are 3 variations.
a] 7x7=49 Sabbath years. The 49th year is also a Jubilee year.
b] 7x7=49 Sabbath years. The Jubilee year that follows is the first year of the next 49 year cycle.
c] 7x7=49 Sabbath years. 50th year is the Jubilee year. The 51th year is the first year of the new cycle.
How many Jubilees is not a dumb question. Actually it's a difficult question.
Imo around Jesus it was the year 4000 After Creation.
That's 80 Jubiliees of 50 years.
I think we are now near to the 120th Jubilee. (2027...2031)
But there are also views that the Jubilee clock stopped during Exodus.
The above is a 50 year cycle.
Right now the 123th 49 year cycle recently started.
But not if the clock stopped at exodus... :mshock:
Genesis 6
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."
I'll give you the short version . . .I've spoken of this before. In God's eyes, all things are measured according to the Son . . Christ. And . . . what I'm seeing is, Jesus is the Jubilee, which as we've been discussing is 50. So, using that measurement, 120 x 50 equals . . .6000 years. From Adam to Jesus was roughly 4000, from Jesus to us is another 2000 . . .after the end of the 6000 years (6th days of labor) comes the Sabbath . . .Rest overcomes reasoning . . .and I think that's what this new millenium is coming into, the age of the Sabbath Rest. That's why the rules have changed. It's no longer about laboring minds, but now it's about personal intimacy. All things become restored, all accounts are paid in full. We no longer "live for Jesus" out of a debt we owed but could not pay. Now, we merely LET Jesus live in and through us in our intimate walk in Him.
To be totally honest, the natural measurment is irrelevant. The spiritual application is what quickens life from within to manifest without. It really doesn't bother me if people's math doesn't show the 70 weeks ending according to their understanding of calendars or time, are we not told to rely "not" on our understanding? Again, it's clear that there is a shift of ministry from Jew to Gentile in Acts at the martyrdom of Stephen. Clearly that is the end of one age and the beginning of another. The end of the minstry to just the Jews and the beginning emphasis on the Gentiles. Just as when in A.D. 70 is another end to another age and the beginning of a new one. The end of the old covenant system and the begining of the new covenant in the hearts of men. There truly are so many outside factors that can easily throw the math off when trying to rely solely on intellect No one will ever really come to agreement as to the literal dates and calendars. But I think that's because the signs themselves have no power, it's what they point to that we should be striving toward.
Quote from: Nathan on February 15, 2011, 08:01:10 PMFrom Adam to Jesus was roughly 4000
I think exactly would be more exact...
QuoteThere truly are so many outside factors that can easily throw the math off when trying to rely solely on intellect No one will ever really come to agreement as to the literal dates and calendars.
I think it is possible to pinpoint many things with great accuracy. Even up to a day.
Creation was 1 Tishri. Jesus born 1 Tishri. Baptism 1 Tishri.
2 years ago I started with nothing. I have put many hours in calender stuff. I pinpointed many events. Some of my calculations still have flaws. But when really studying "time" one will quickly get a feeling that everything does exactly fit. Patterns. Even the 2 Temples were destroyed on the very same day.
My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be 6000 years.
I never know for sure how to word it because I've said "exact" to others in other converations and rather than see what's attempting to be said, they counter with an argument against the "exactness" . . .so I try to skirt around that by saying "roughly" because usually most can accept the roughly more than the exactly.
I've played with the calendar "some" not nearly as extensive as you, but I've found many argue the validity of calendars in general due to the fact that the Hebrews themselves apparently didn't live by them, the Chronicles refer to events in time by which king was in rule when the event took place. And when the Calendar "did" take shape, it still isn't the same calendar we use today . . .the names of all the days on our Calendars are names of gods and godesses of pagans . . . and the number of days in each month is different now than then . . .and they've even added months since first originating the first calendar . . .that's why I say there are so many factors that can change the outcome of the one trying to pinpoint with any level of accuracy, when exactly things happened.
The greatest things that happened to our religious world with the birth and death of Jesus and we "still" don't have a completely clear handle on exactly what day it was. :dontknow:
But I do agree with you when it comes to the patterns. I'll stand by a thought or a belief much more steadfast if I see a pattern with it, much more than I would try to support something that all I have is a Bible verse . . .patterns reveal the nature of God on many levels.
Quote from: Nathan on February 15, 2011, 10:31:00 PM
I never know for sure how to word it because I've said "exact" to others in other converations and rather than see what's attempting to be said, they counter with an argument against the "exactness" . . .so I try to skirt around that by saying "roughly" because usually most can accept the roughly more than the exactly.
I've played with the calendar "some" not nearly as extensive as you, but I've found many argue the validity of calendars in general due to the fact that the Hebrews themselves apparently didn't live by them,
I'm talking about God's calendar. The Jews should follow it but didn't always. Or they changed little things. For example they currently celebrate (their version of) Pentecost on a fixed date. Leviticus doesn't agree...
Their year is 5771. I would say it's about 5984. My calculations are verified and agree quite wel with for example teh calculations of Bisshop Usher (sp?). OTOH Jews aren't stupid. Why the difference?
Quotethe Chronicles refer to events in time by which king was in rule when the event took place. And when the Calendar "did" take shape, it still isn't the same calendar we use today . . .the names of all the days on our Calendars are names of gods and godesses of pagans . . .
And the days are mostly Nosk gods.
Quoteand the number of days in each month is different now than then . . .and they've even added months since first originating the first calendar . . .that's why I say there are so many factors that can change the outcome of the one trying to pinpoint with any level of accuracy, when exactly things happened.
Not really. They Jewish calendar is vastly more accurate as our calendar. But it doesn't give much differences of a period of a few millenia. The problem is that our calendar and the Jewish one get out of sync for a while and then they get into sync again. Over a 19 period their calendar is very accurate. So quite often only a few days are missing. And yes.... always near a festival day. Great for verification.
But yes calendars are sometimes wrong. But astronomy often comes to the rescue. Historians often wrote about solar and lunar eclipses.
They wrote about constelation and planet settings. With today's astronomy software we can exactly calculate for example all past solar eclipses. So sometimes the start of the reaign of a say Pharao can't be pinpointed within 10 year accuracy. But then someone finds adocument that on the 5th year of his reign there was a solar eclipse because their god Ra was angry. That suddenly solves the 10 year accuracy problem in my made up example. The problem is that that discovery was for example made in 2005 but people are still using guesswork dates based on information of before 2005. So internet is swarmed with wrong articles. Not because those people lie or are not serious in their studies. No just because data is missing.
QuoteThe greatest things that happened to our religious world with the birth and death of Jesus and we "still" don't have a completely clear handle on exactly what day it was. :dontknow:
I give you 2 handles :winkgrin:
Born: 11 September 3BC between 6:15pm and 7:45 PM The lady standing on the moon gives this accuracy. New moon -> darkest hour
Death 27/28 March 31 AD. Middle of the sabbath cycle. But dare I say Thursday. Last Supper however was exactly to the hour in the middle of the week.
Just use Google to verify and you will find 20 other dates
QuoteBut I do agree with you when it comes to the patterns. I'll stand by a thought or a belief much more steadfast if I see a pattern with it, much more than I would try to support something that all I have is a Bible verse . . .patterns reveal the nature of God on many levels.
Then I'm totally confused how you can claim:
QuoteTo be totally honest, the natural measurment is irrelevant.
I think if a spiritual pattern doesn't align with a natural pattern it's time to reexamine the verses.
I'm getting a bit curious what's gonna happen at 2016 or 2027. My 2 end time dates :icon_jokercolor:
According to the book of Daniel, many shall go to and fro, which suggests that the transport at the time of the end will be flying objects of some kind so I bet that 2016 is to early for the end date.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 15, 2011, 07:56:37 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 15, 2011, 07:36:14 PM
Hi,
This may be a dumb question but does any one know how many Jubilees there has been up until now? Also, when does the next one start or end? If I am not mistaken, a Jubilee is 49 years.
CHB
There are 3 variations.
a] 7x7=49 Sabbath years. The 49th year is also a Jubilee year.
b] 7x7=49 Sabbath years. The Jubilee year that follows is the first year of the next 49 year cycle.
c] 7x7=49 Sabbath years. 50th year is the Jubilee year. The 51th year is the first year of the new cycle.
How many Jubilees is not a dumb question. Actually it's a difficult question.
Imo around Jesus it was the year 4000 After Creation.
That's 80 Jubiliees of 50 years.
I think we are now near to the 120th Jubilee. (2027...2031)
But there are also views that the Jubilee clock stopped during Exodus.
The above is a 50 year cycle.
Right now the 123th 49 year cycle recently started.
But not if the clock stopped at exodus... :mshock:
Thanks WW,
That was good information, something I have been wondering about for a while.
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on February 16, 2011, 12:51:05 AM
According to the book of Daniel, many shall go to and fro, which suggests that the transport at the time of the end will be flying objects of some kind so I bet that 2016 is to early for the end date.
Like airplanes?
Below is another chart illustrating the 70th week. Earlier events are shown at the top, and later events at the bottom. The numbers provided in Daniel 12, and in Revelation 11 & 12, that represent the age of the church, and the time, times and a half, are each provided a vertical column, terminating at the end of the age. The largest number, 1,335 days, extends from the crucifixion of Jesus to the end of the age. The 1,290 days represents the remaining time of the church after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the sacrifices are ended. The 1,260 days represents the remaining time after the book of Revelation was written, which was probably about 95 AD. This corresponds to the 42 months. The 3.5 days, when the two witnesses lie as corpses in the street, is also shown.
Chart of the 70th week
Jesus' baptism______________________________________________
| |
| ministry of Jesus |
| |
|_______________ Crucifixion_________________________________|
| | |
| | |
| |______________ Abomination of desolation____|
| | | |
| 1,335 | | |
| days | |______________ Apocalypse____|
| | 1,290 | | |
| | days | | |
| | | 1,260 | |
| | | days | |
| | | | |
| | | & | |
| | | | |
| | | 42 months | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | |______________|
| | | | |
| | | | 3.5 days |
| | | | |
|_______________|______________|______________|______________|
End of the age
The abomination of desolation is identified as the spirit of antichrist, which was present already in John's lifetime. Revelation 20:1-3 says that Satan was bound in a bottomless pit; Jesus said, referring to Satan, that he had bound the "strong man." In the apostolic age, Satan was bound; his influence in the church was limited. But towards the end of the first century, he began to ascend out of the pit, as John described in Revelation 11:7. Jesus said to his disciples, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [Matthew 18:18]
Writing late in the first century, John said that the antichrist spirit was already present. [1 John 4:3] He said that it was the "last time." [1 John 2:18] The "last time" refers to the "time, times and a half" which is the last half-week of the 70th week. Because he represented the remaining time of the church by a number smaller than the 1,290 days of Daniel, John indicated that the abomination of desolation had been set up in the temple, which is the church. Its influence has continued, often unnoticed, since then. Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy shows that something is to be "poured out" upon the abomination of desolation, the antichrist spirit that causes desolation in the church. The spirit of Christ leads us to the truth, and banishes darkness.
Doug
Doug, thanks for the additional posts and clarification, I'm gettinga clearer picture of what you are sharing because of them.
BTW really good posts and interesting information offered in this thread.
Quote from: wwI'm getting a bit curious what's gonna happen at 2016 or 2027. My 2 end time dates
ugh. I have to wait until 2016? I was counting on 2012.
That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.
That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?
Ok I could handle that. :happygrin:
2027 just won't do. :thumbdown: Gotta go back to the drawing board with that one.
These guys are very interesting. It's in 6 parts. They say 2015 is a possibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJYI6yoefg&NR=1
Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2011, 07:00:52 AM
Quote from: wwI'm getting a bit curious what's gonna happen at 2016 or 2027. My 2 end time dates
ugh. I have to wait until 2016? I was counting on 2012.
That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.
That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?
Ok I could handle that. :happygrin:
2027 just won't do. :thumbdown: Gotta go back to the drawing board with that one.
These guys are very interesting. It's in 6 parts. They say 2015 is a possibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJYI6yoefg&NR=1
There are 2 things to this game.
Calculate a date and figure out what it means. So; is 2027 the start or end of something? I think the end.
2027 is 120x50=6000 years. (Or as Nathan wrote 120 years are appointed to man)
1000 years is a day for the Lord. 6000 is the end of the 6th day.
The 7th day is the Sabbath day. Jesus is the King of the Sabbath day. (1000 years)
So your rapture is 2027-7=2020.
Personally I'm sure all the calculations have to match. So indeed back to the drawing board.
Maybe the clock stopped 3 days/years while Jesus was in the grave. Something with 360 day years. Could be so many thing. But that's the joy of puzzling :icon_jokercolor:
2016/2020 that's only 4 years so it's getting better. I'm not a fan of all sort of theories that state a clock stopped (to make a theory fit)
And here are a few things that will surely put a hitch in your calculations.
2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What [shall be] the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?
2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.
It's interesting that these things occur in the chapter after this is said:
2Ki 19:3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day [is] a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and [there is] not strength to bring forth.
And then, of course, there is this:
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Quote from: Beth on February 16, 2011, 03:02:54 PM
And here are a few things that will surely put a hitch in your calculations.
I hope not.... :mblush:
I've been looking at the shadow going 10 degrees/steps back.
How do you think it would affect my calculation?
The calculations I've shown are all verified by different ways of determining dates.
That said I'm sure the 10 steps isn't just a isolated story.
The question is if the shortened days are already included in the other prophesies or not.
:dontknow:
Forgive me White Wings, I did not mean to imply that what I noted above have put a hitch in your calculations. I've never seen your calculations so I would have no idea whether you accounted for them or not. Sorry for the confusion.
Nothing to forgive Beth. :thumbsup:
I'm not saying my calculations aren't flawed.
Maybe they are fine but for example your 10 steps back verse is valuble for something that I never even tried to calculate and/or consider.
Do you, or anybody else, sees the relevance of the 10 degrees/steps?
I don't; but at the same time I'm sure they should be used in some calculation....
I don't think this article accurately portrays what Ussher, Kepler, and others were doing with their calculations, necessarily. They were all doing calculations, using the Bible, tracing it back to the date of the creation of Adam. Adam wasn't necessarily created at the beginning of the creation of the earth, so all this talk of young earth seems a diversion from that to me. However, by some of these calculations, we are now already 6000 years [6 days] from Adam and at the beginning of the 7th day. So--
Our own ww has now thrown his hat into the ring with Ussher, Kepler, and Newton, and seems to have a better chance of being accurate then they were, assuming something BIG is supposed to happen on the day the 6000 year mark is reached. Is there any reason to assume that? [The Jewish day begins at night. Is this relevant?]
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Bible by James Ussher, the Anglican Archbishop of Armagh (in what is now Northern Ireland). The chronology is sometimes associated with Young Earth Creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago.
Ussher's work, more properly known as the Annales veteris testamenti, a prima mundi origine deducti (Annals of the Old Testament, deduced from the first origins of the world), was his contribution to the long-running theological debate on the age of the Earth. This was a major concern of many Christian scholars over the centuries.
The chronology is sometimes called the Ussher-Lightfoot chronology because John Lightfoot published a similar chronology in 1642–1644. This, however, is a misnomer, as the chronology is based on Ussher's work alone and not that of Lightfoot. Ussher deduced that the first day of creation began at nightfall preceding Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC, in the proleptic Julian calendar, near the autumnal equinox. Lightfoot similarly deduced that Creation began at nightfall near the autumnal equinox, but in the year 3929 BC.
Ussher's proposed date of 4004 BC differed somewhat from other Biblically based estimates, such as those of Jose ben Halafta (3896 BC), Bede (3952 BC), Ussher's near-contemporary Scaliger (3949 BC), Johannes Kepler (3992 BC) or Sir Isaac Newton (c. 4000 BC).[1] Ussher's specific choice of starting year may have been influenced by the then-widely-held belief that the Earth's potential duration was 6,000 years (4,000 before the birth of Christ and 2,000 after), corresponding to the six days of Creation, on the grounds that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8). This view had been almost completely abandoned by 1997[citation needed], six thousand years after 4004 BC. Today some biblical scholars, as well as a number of literalist evangelical Christians, believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible calling for a 6000-year-old Earth.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology
Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2011, 06:07:36 PMOur own ww has now thrown his hat into the ring with Ussher, Kepler, and Newton, and seems to have a better chance of being accurate then they were,
Not exactly. It's just as time passes by new info is found. As we all know information can be abused and misunderstood.
I once was sure He died in 30AD. Now I'm even more sure it was 31AD. And all that in 1 year time. So....
Quoteassuming something BIG is supposed to happen on the day the 6000 year mark is reached. Is there any reason to assume that? [The Jewish day begins at night. Is this relevant?]
Why not? Jesus was a real man. The temple really burned down. Sodom was really destroyed. Etc. There can be a billion spiritual meanings to it but still it literally happend.
QuoteFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Bible by James Ussher, the Anglican Archbishop of Armagh (in what is now Northern Ireland). The chronology is sometimes associated with Young Earth Creationism, which holds that the universe was created only a few millennia ago.
Maybe the truth is in the middle. Jews believe in 2 calendars. The calendar of God. A vast number of years before Adam.
And "our" calendar is at 5984. Jews are at 5771. Big question.... explain the 213 year difference.
QuoteThe chronology is sometimes called the Ussher-Lightfoot chronology because John Lightfoot published a similar chronology in 1642–1644. This, however, is a misnomer, as the chronology is based on Ussher's work alone and not that of Lightfoot. Ussher deduced that the first day of creation began at nightfall preceding Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC,
I would say 4003 BC
1 Tishri to be exact. Read "in the beginning" backward in Hebrew and you get Tishri 1
It should be noted Jesus was born on 1 Tishri too. Jewish new Year. At night fall.
Adam#1 was born at night ----> Last Adam was reborn at daybreak. Patterns.... :mblush:
(http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/bere-tishriA.jpg)
:2c:
Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2011, 07:00:52 AM
Quote from: wwI'm getting a bit curious what's gonna happen at 2016 or 2027. My 2 end time dates
ugh. I have to wait until 2016? I was counting on 2012.
That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.
That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?
Ok I could handle that. :happygrin:
2027 just won't do. :thumbdown: Gotta go back to the drawing board with that one.
These guys are very interesting. It's in 6 parts. They say 2015 is a possibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJYI6yoefg&NR=1
Do you think Christ will return on 2012, when the world is watching?
He comes as a thief, therefore watch
If a christ does appear on 2012 its more likely to be the false prophet, or the many who come in my name.
If he says to go into the desert or in the secret chambers, don't go forth, Jesus will return as a flash of lightning.
I think 2012 is a big part in the falling away of faith, so that many scofers will say, "where is the promise of his coming, allt things continue as the begining of creation"
Be wary of 2012 and second coming predictions by pastors, who overthrow the faith of some.
TT,
A thief in the night doesn't mean unexpected. On the contrary.
Aren't most fallen away today?
1 billion Christians. That's 1:7.
I bet many know close to nothing about Christianity. And many never opened a Bible and just listen to that Tele Tubbie in from of church each sunday.
So how many are really Christian? Maybe just the famous 5%....
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2011, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2011, 07:00:52 AM
Quote from: wwI'm getting a bit curious what's gonna happen at 2016 or 2027. My 2 end time dates
ugh. I have to wait until 2016? I was counting on 2012.
That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.
That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?
Ok I could handle that. :happygrin:
2027 just won't do. :thumbdown: Gotta go back to the drawing board with that one.
These guys are very interesting. It's in 6 parts. They say 2015 is a possibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJYI6yoefg&NR=1
There are 2 things to this game.
Calculate a date and figure out what it means. So; is 2027 the start or end of something? I think the end.
2027 is 120x50=6000 years. (Or as Nathan wrote 120 years are appointed to man)
1000 years is a day for the Lord. 6000 is the end of the 6th day.
The 7th day is the Sabbath day. Jesus is the King of the Sabbath day. (1000 years)
So your rapture is 2027-7=2020.
Personally I'm sure all the calculations have to match. So indeed back to the drawing board.
Maybe the clock stopped 3 days/years while Jesus was in the grave. Something with 360 day years. Could be so many thing. But that's the joy of puzzling :icon_jokercolor:
2016/2020 that's only 4 years so it's getting better. I'm not a fan of all sort of theories that state a clock stopped (to make a theory fit)
Interesting that I had a dream, where I was in America in 2020, I was suprised at how peacefull it was. There were few cars on the road, I talked to a tramp and he said because petrol prices were so high, there were also cool new vehicles available because of this. I also noticed new technogies, such as one where I walked into a bar and saw this woman dancing on a platform, turns out it was a hologram.
I did some research and find out that holographic technology is being developed and being released by 2016. Holographic technology could be used to set the image of the beast that speaks.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2011, 08:41:30 PM
TT,
A thief in the night doesn't mean unexpected. On the contrary.
Aren't most fallen away today?
1 billion Christians. That's 1:7.
I bet many know close to nothing about Christianity. And many never opened a Bible and just listen to that Tele Tubbie in from of church each sunday.
So how many are really Christian? Maybe just the famous 5%....
I got no problem with you making predictions. I think some transparency is needed. For God to not give us some clues is unfair, that's a bit like saying, "Watch your back, because a thief might stab you any minute", gee thanks for that amazing advice mate.
He said that we can know the seasons of time we are in. I don't think we are near the end because the season, says otherwise. E.g where are the false christs etc, I have seen some movements, but it is not widely recognized yet.
Also Jesus is not finished with the church. Now is the time to show off his power, when the world is in a bad condition. To show it off at the millenium is awsome, but it is so much better to have grace and His power now, while were are in suffering.
Quote from: shawn on February 16, 2011, 02:01:09 AM
Quote from: thinktank on February 16, 2011, 12:51:05 AM
According to the book of Daniel, many shall go to and fro, which suggests that the transport at the time of the end will be flying objects of some kind so I bet that 2016 is to early for the end date.
Like airplanes?
That could be the case. However very few people use airplanes, even a lot of westerners, have not been on a plane and those that do might travel maybe once a year, only a few travel by air dozens or hundreds of times a year. So I think that it means that most people will have access to flying transport, similar to how the devil, who in the book of Job goes to and fro, the same language suggests that, we will go to and fro quite regularly, just as the devil did.
Quote from: thinktank on February 16, 2011, 08:51:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2011, 08:41:30 PM
TT,
A thief in the night doesn't mean unexpected. On the contrary.
Aren't most fallen away today?
1 billion Christians. That's 1:7.
I bet many know close to nothing about Christianity. And many never opened a Bible and just listen to that Tele Tubbie in from of church each sunday.
So how many are really Christian? Maybe just the famous 5%....
I got no problem with you making predictions.
Hi TT,
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't defending my calculation but I was asking you a question.
If you look around and count all real/sincere Christians in the world don't you conclude a very high percentage of humanity has already fallen away?
Quote from: TTI did some research and find out that holographic technology is being developed and being released by 2016. Holographic technology could be used to set the image of the beast that speaks.
I read somewhere that holographic tech was already used in the first Gulf war to scare the 'enemy' troops half to death. Who knows if that's true, but remember how fast that war was won? I know a type of holography was already available on the computer screens of thinktanks in the 70's [3 D representations, seen from all sides]. I am sure they are very advanced with this now. I bet holographic email is right around the corner, where you open my email and I am sitting on your couch in 3 D talking to you. Would that count for 'to and fro' in your book? :happygrin:
Airplanes satisfies my definition of to and fro. 1.5 billion people travel by plane each year. Then if you include train, bus, and car, that's a lot of to and fro'ing.
QuoteBe wary of 2012 and second coming predictions by pastors, who overthrow the faith of some.
yeah. you're probably right--they would fake it, expecially if they have the technology to do it. :sigh:
Quote from: thinktank on February 16, 2011, 08:32:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2011, 07:00:52 AM
That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.
That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?
If he says to go into the desert or in the secret chambers, don't go forth, Jesus will return as a flash of lightning.
Not only does the (1.) phrase "seven years great tribulation" never occur in Scripture, neither does (2.) the word "rapture." If your looking toward the bringing of a people into complete victory, even over death, and are pressing into it yourself, then you are pursuing the goal the apostle says is the one thing he does. But if you are expecting (3.) at any moment (4.) the sudden (5.) disappearance (6.) of racially gentile believers (7.) after which the devil will take over this earth, then you are expecting to occur several non-Biblical lies (even as I have enumerated.)
The translations that have Jesus saying either "return" or "flash of lightning" are misleading. Here is more exactly what is actually said: "For even as
the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be
the presence of the Son of Mankind." (Matthew 24:27, Concordant Literal Translation) The sun rises in the east and, in the rather short period we call "dawn," the whole sky lightens up, the light "appearing even as far as the west." It is about the dawn of a new day, not a transitory electrical display. Additionally, I think Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled, Jesus ascending and receiving the kingdom from His Father, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
To continue about this rather large topic it should probably be in another thread. I mostly intend to mention something in passing about some things others have made passing remarks concerning.
Quote from: reFORMer on February 17, 2011, 08:38:14 AM
Quote from: thinktank on February 16, 2011, 08:32:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2011, 07:00:52 AM
That means the tribulation has started already, according to Tim Lahey.
That means we will be raptured in late 2012, early 2013?
If he says to go into the desert or in the secret chambers, don't go forth, Jesus will return as a flash of lightning.
Not only does the (1.) phrase "seven years great tribulation" never occur in Scripture, neither does (2.) the word "rapture." If your looking toward the bringing of a people into complete victory, even over death, and are pressing into it yourself, then you are pursuing the goal the apostle says is the one thing he does. But if you are expecting (3.) at any moment (4.) the sudden (5.) disappearance (6.) of racially gentile believers (7.) after which the devil will take over this earth, then you are expecting to occur several non-Biblical lies (even as I have enumerated.)
The translations that have Jesus saying either "return" or "flash of lightning" are misleading. Here is more exactly what is actually said: "For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." (Matthew 24:27, Concordant Literal Translation) The sun rises in the east and, in the rather short period we call "dawn," the whole sky lightens up, the light "appearing even as far as the west." It is about the dawn of a new day, not a transitory electrical display. Additionally, I think Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled, Jesus ascending and receiving the kingdom from His Father, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
To continue about this rather large topic it should probably be in another thread. I mostly intend to mention something in passing about some things others have made passing remarks concerning.
I know. I know. lol
QuoteIf your looking toward the bringing of a people into complete victory, even over death, and are pressing into it yourself, then you are pursuing the goal the apostle says is the one thing he does.
Yes, I am. Your description of the whole sky lighting up at dawn is a perfect metaphor. I have seen lightning go from one horizon to the other [in a Kansas field at night] which also lights up the whole sky. I am expecting something spectacular.
QuoteBut if you are expecting (3.) at any moment (4.) the sudden (5.) disappearance (6.) of racially gentile believers (7.) after which the devil will take over this earth, then you are expecting to occur several non-Biblical lies (even as I have enumerated.)
I understand. But, I do expect evil to increase [which it is]. So I'm still somewhat open to the 7 years of tribulation thing--especially since every church in the country seems to preach it. I have no particular Biblical proof of it, though.
As far as 'rapture' is concerned, what they call the rapture, I consider to be what you are describing, and that it will happen to everyone at the same time.
Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2011, 12:25:40 AM
Quote from: TTI did some research and find out that holographic technology is being developed and being released by 2016. Holographic technology could be used to set the image of the beast that speaks.
I read somewhere that holographic tech was already used in the first Gulf war to scare the 'enemy' troops half to death. Who knows if that's true, but remember how fast that war was won? I know a type of holography was already available on the computer screens of thinktanks in the 70's [3 D representations, seen from all sides]. I am sure they are very advanced with this now. I bet holographic email is right around the corner, where you open my email and I am sitting on your couch in 3 D talking to you. Would that count for 'to and fro' in your book? :happygrin:
Wow I didn't even think of that. Holographic email, that is way advanced, sounds crazy. You should share your idea to to the makers of sci fi films.
Airplanes satisfies my definition of to and fro. 1.5 billion people travel by plane each year. Then if you include train, bus, and car, that's a lot of to and fro'ing.
Yes but to and froing happened n the 18th century, there is nothing new today, perhaps I suppose commercial aircraft is new, I was thinking of war planes and blimps in the olden days. But individual flying transport is very new for the end times scenario, and I think that the to and froing happen at the same time the fourth iron beast arises. I don't think the 4th beast has arrived yet. Some say the fourth beast is the roman empire, but as a student of the book of Daniel I cannot see this being the case, I think a revived Roman empire, is an unlikely scenario, there is a possibility though that the Roman empire still exists, in the form of the UN today, both are very similar and share ceasars symbol, but I think the last iron beast where the 10 kings come from, is not the UN or Roman empire, but could coencide with the UN, work with it, so to speak, possibly even wage war against it and claim its dominion.
QuoteBe wary of 2012 and second coming predictions by pastors, who overthrow the faith of some.
yeah. you're probably right--they would fake it, expecially if they have the technology to do it. :sigh:
Whoever calls upon the name of YAH shall be saved.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2011, 10:27:32 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 16, 2011, 08:51:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 16, 2011, 08:41:30 PM
TT,
A thief in the night doesn't mean unexpected. On the contrary.
Aren't most fallen away today?
1 billion Christians. That's 1:7.
I bet many know close to nothing about Christianity. And many never opened a Bible and just listen to that Tele Tubbie in from of church each sunday.
So how many are really Christian? Maybe just the famous 5%....
I got no problem with you making predictions.
Hi TT,
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't defending my calculation but I was asking you a question.
If you look around and count all real/sincere Christians in the world don't you conclude a very high percentage of humanity has already fallen away?
No, because everyone has already fallen away since Adam, so therefore one can only fall away, if they turn away from Christ after receiving him, otherwise why would Paul make his statment. Further if you look at what Christ said, he said that at the end many false christs will come and if possible deceive the elect. I have come accross these movements and they are very deceptive, it is enough to fool any Christian, only ones trust in instinct and certain scriptures can keep one from being deceived. I think that these false christs will come to seduce the elect, and then the man of sin is revealed, after faith is broken.
Quote from: thinktank on February 17, 2011, 05:56:00 PMI think that these false christs will come to seduce the elect, and then the man of sin is revealed, after faith is broken.
Bad luck then because it's impossible to decieve the elect.
Depends on who the elect are though. Are they the chosen or are they the called?
YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen. (=elect)
YLTEph 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
YLTRev 2
1 `To the messenger of the Ephesian assembly write: These things saith he who is holding the seven stars in his right hand, who is walking in the midst of the seven lamp-stands--the golden:
2 I have known thy works, and thy labour, and thy endurance, and that thou art not able to bear evil ones, and that thou hast tried those saying themselves to be apostles and are not, and hast found them liars,
3 and thou didst bear, and hast endurance, and because of my name hast toiled, and hast not been weary.
4 `But I have against thee: That thy first love thou didst leave!
e.g Paul was chosen, but the rich man was called by God to follow him, but he ran away in distress.
Some people feel they were called by God at an early age to be pastors etc, while others like the christian message and chose to follow Christ.
I feel that those who are chosen are special vessels prepared by God in order to change the world. eg Jeremiah, Moses, Saul, Jesus the seed of David.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 17, 2011, 09:08:43 PM
YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen. (=elect)
You know, for a long time I used to read this passage like "so as to lead astray possibly even the chosen" iow. I thought it wasn't revealed whether the chosen can be deceived or not. However, recently I've discovered some Bibles translate it to "if
it were possible, also the elect."
As for the rapture, if I don't remember it all wrong Cardinal once said she had heard the Holy Spirit audibly state there will be no rapture. She had reacted like "I can't believe it! Everything I have been taught as truth is false, and everything I thought was false turns out to be true." (Card if you're reading this and I'm wrong, correct me)
Quote from: Aleax on February 17, 2011, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 17, 2011, 09:08:43 PM
YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen. (=elect)
You know, for a long time I used to read this passage like "so as to lead astray possibly even the chosen" iow. I thought it wasn't revealed whether the chosen can be deceived or not. However, recently I've discovered some Bibles translate it to "if it were possible, also the elect."
I just checked a dozen translations and the all have "if it were"
Including the KJV.
24 For there will arise, false Christs, and false prophets,––and they will show great signs and wonders, so that, if possible, even the chosen, should be deceived:––
24 For @ there shall arise @ false Christs @, and @ false prophets @, and @ shall shew @ great @ signs @ and @ wonders @; insomuch that @, if @ it were possible @, they shall deceive @ the very @ elect @.
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.
24 For there will arise FALSE Christs and FALSE prophets, and they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will come up false Christs, and false prophets, who will do great signs and wonders; so that if possible even the saints might be tricked.
24 For there will arise false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they will deceive the very elect.
24 For false christs and false prophets will be raised up, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will arise false Christs and false prophets. And they will produce great signs and wonders, so much so as to lead into error even the elect (if this could be).
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall give great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
24 For pseudo messiahs and pseudo prophets rise; and they give mega signs and omens; so as, if possible, to seduce the very select.
24 For there shall arise false Christs pseudo messiahs , and false pseudo prophets, and shall shew give great mega signs and wonders omens ; In so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive seduce the very elect select .
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the elect's sake.
24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders in such a manner that they shall deceive, if possible, the very elect.
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
24 For there will arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 For there will arise false messiahs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 For there will rise up false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders, so that, if possible, even the chosen will be deceived.
24 »There will be false Christs and false prophets. They will show great signs and wonders so that many will be misled. This includes some of the chosen ones.
24 For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect.
24 For false Christs, and false prophets, shall be raised up, and give great signs and wonders; so as to deceive, if possible, also the chosen.
24 For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
24 For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect.
So translations seem to agree on that point.
Quote from: Aleax on February 17, 2011, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 17, 2011, 09:08:43 PM
YLTMatt 24
24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen. (=elect)
You know, for a long time I used to read this passage like "so as to lead astray possibly even the chosen" iow. I thought it wasn't revealed whether the chosen can be deceived or not. However, recently I've discovered some Bibles translate it to "if it were possible, also the elect."
As for the rapture, if I don't remember it all wrong Cardinal once said she had heard the Holy Spirit audibly state there will be no rapture. She had reacted like "I can't believe it! Everything I have been taught as truth is false, and everything I thought was false turns out to be true." (Card if you're reading this and I'm wrong, correct me)
I think the chosen will be deceived BUT, also NOT. I.e they will initially be seduced and then after experiencing the miracles and the manifestations smehting will resonate within them that something is not quite right, then they will leave and not be deceived. Hence the reason why Jesus mentions "if it were possible". Interesting to note that in the church you might have heard of a guy named Todd Bentley. This guy was someone who seduced the elect into his miracles, and emphasis on angels, such as Emma, and also his unusual healings of violence. After a while the people began to suspect something was wrong, and then suddenly the movement went sour and there was divorce between Todd and his wife. This lead to people questioning the movement and found many of the things were not scriptural. The good thing about this failed movement was that it brought to light the fact that healing miracles do take place and that the spirit behind them is not necessarily the Holy spirit. It also helps arm the body of christ against the false prophets and christ who utilize similar phenemona to take people away from Christ and dwelving into angels and miracles etc. Correct formula is seek Christ first then the kingdom shall be given to you.
If I remember correctly I think she said there would be a taking up, but not the same as churches teach it. I interpret this to mean there will be a resurection ,but it will not be as simple as just saying Jesus is lord, but one must live a holy life and not live like a devil. I have also had my own vision on this if you want to hear it pm me.
Quote from: reFORMer on February 17, 2011, 08:38:14 AM
The translations that have Jesus saying either "return" or "flash of lightning" are misleading. Here is more exactly what is actually said: "For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." (Matthew 24:27, Concordant Literal Translation) The sun rises in the east and, in the rather short period we call "dawn," the whole sky lightens up, the light "appearing even as far as the west." It is about the dawn of a new day, not a transitory electrical display. Additionally, I think Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled, Jesus ascending and receiving the kingdom from His Father, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
In the Olivet Discourse the questions the disciples asked Jesus were, when would the things he said would happen to the temple occur? and, what was the sign of his coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples would have been well aware of Old Testament prophecies about the "day of the Lord," for example, it is mentioned in Joel 2:1, and Zechariah 14:1. Zechariah's prophecy foretold the cleaving of the mount of Olives, half of it moving to the north, and half of it moving to the south.
It cannot be an accident that Jesus' prophecies about the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem, and the end of the world, were associated with the mount of Olives. Jesus stood on the mount of Olives many times during his ministry, and even lived there, which fulfilled the part of Zechariah's prophecy that said "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east." [Zechariah 14:4]
When the Romans besieged Jerusalem, the mount of Olives did not cleave in its midst, in any sense whatsoever. If any Jews at the time thought that the Roman armies besieging Jerusalem might be the ones Zechariah had foretold, and that God would soon fight on their behalf, and cleave the mount of Olives, and send awful plagues on the Romans and even upon their horses, mules, asses, and camels, they were mistaken. Many were killed, or became slaves.
No doubt, Jesus included the Jewish war when he said, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." [Matthew 24:6]
When Jesus said, "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh," [Luke 21:20] it is unlikely he meant the earthly Jerusalem. Consider, where were those apostles when Jerusalem was under siege by the Roman armies? Many of them were probably already dead. And how could any but Jews living in the immediate area have seen Jerusalem compassed by the Roman armies?
At that time, the church was established in many nations; most Christians had probably never been to the earthly Jerusalem, and would not get to see any armies camped around it. This applies to most Christians who have ever lived. But every Christian, in every age, has come to the heavenly Jerusalem. [Hebrews 12:22] And that one has been compassed by armies, not of flesh and blood, but the armies of "the rulers of the darkness of this world," who promote "spiritual wickedness in high places."
The armies that compass the holy city of the saints are those described in prophecies such as Isaiah 34:2; Ezekiel 38:4; Joel 2:11; Zechariah 14:2; Revelation 9:16; 20:8-9.
These are the armies Jesus referred to!
I suggest the Mount of Olives represents the Olivet Discourse of Jesus. His prophecy has been figuratively "cleaved in the midst," and displaced to the north, and to the south, by the two opposite interpretations, preterism and dispensationalism!
Zechariah said to flee to the valley between those two mountains; that is, apply the things Jesus taught in his Olivet Discourse to the whole age of the church, not to Jews of the first century, or to the Jews in a hypothetical future seven year tribulation. The church is the "Jerusalem" of Zechariah's prophecies, which God promised to defend!
If there is anything that the history of the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD should teach us, it is that the Jerusalem of prophecy is
not the earthly Jerusalem. But, both preterism and dispensationalism apply most prophecies about Jerusalem to the
earthly city. After Jesus ascended to heaven, the Jerusalem to which those prophecies apply is the
heavenly city, the Church. This explains why Jews living in the first century, who hoped for the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecies, were disappointed.
Jesus referred to the
blowing of a trumpet; "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call," [Matthew 24:31] which connects the Olivet Discourse to the book of Revelation, and the seven trumpets described there. These allude to the trumpets at Jericho, which stood at the gateway to the promised land. The trumpets in Revelation precede the resurrection, when the saints of all ages are to be raised up, and inherit the promise of life, and be rewarded for their works.
Jesus included many people, "all the tribes of the earth," among those affected by the events that he described in the Olivet Discourse. But the events of 70 AD were local to the area of Judea. He said, "all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." [Matthew 24:30]
The scope of the events Jesus described is universal. Isaiah said, "the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations." [Isaiah 34:2] The armies described by Ezekiel and by Joel also involve
many people. [Ezekiel 38:6; Joel 2:2; 3:12]
Zechariah said, "And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people." [Zechariah 12:3] All nations would gather against it. [Zechariah 14:2] This did not apply to the events of 70 AD, where the armies were Roman armies. And the Jerusalem to which these prophecies apply is the heavenly one. Jerusalem has been raised up, as Isaiah had said it would be. [Isaiah 2:1-3]
Jesus said, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." [Luke 21:24] This is the captivity foretold by the prophets. Joel spoke of it; [Joel 3:1, 3, 6] Zechariah said, "half of the city shall go forth into captivity." [Zechariah 14:2] But this prophecy was not fulfilled in 70 AD; instead, the entire city was captured. It applies to the heavenly city, not the earthly one; people have been taken captive in sects, and cults, and denominations, and they are captive to various flawed interpretations and traditions.
Jesus warned his disciples to watch; he warned about thieves, and becoming victims of theft. Peter said, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night." [2 Peter 3:10] Jesus spoke of our
spiritual house being broken up, and the loss of potential eternal rewards. This is the house he spoke of in the sermon on the mount, when he compared the person who did what he taught to a man who built his house on a rock. [Matthew 7:24] Jesus said: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up." [Matthew 24:43]
When we compare what he said here to other prophecies, the members of the army described in Joel "climb up upon the houses," and "enter in at the windows like a thief." The hordes of Gog and Magog seek "To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land." [Ezekiel 38:12] Zechariah said, "thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee." [Zechariah 14:1]
According to these prophecies, the saints have been "spoiled" in some fashion, by the invading armies. Evidently, there are spiritual blessings available that they are missing. Some of the gifts of the spirit are absent; the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Luke 21:24] Compare with Revelation 11:2, "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
Mountains are very prominent in the Olivet Discourse. The mount of Olives gives its name to the prophecy. Jesus said, when you see the abomination of desolation, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." [Matthew 24:16]
Most people reading this think he meant, flee for self-preservation. But Jesus also said, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." [Luke 17:33] Clearly his warning to flee to the mountains was
not for self-preservation.
Joel wrote: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim." [Joel 3:18]
When Jesus spoke of new wine in his parable, it represented new teaching, and new understanding. [Matthew 9:17] The mountains of Israel represent revelations of God, and promises, and covenants. The promises of God are the mountains that Jesus meant we should flee to.
Ezekiel said an enemy had claimed the mountains as a possession, and had made them desolate, and swallowed them up on every side, so they were "taken up in the lips of talkers," and were "an infamy of the people." They had become "a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about." [Ezekiel 36:2-4]
God promised that the mountains would "shoot forth branches," and "yield fruit to my people of Israel." "I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it."
These mountains represent the invisible spiritual things promised to the saints. Understanding prophecy is one of them. The enemy will be overcome. "And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD." [Ezekiel 38:21]
Another feature of the Olivet Discourse, that this prophecy shares with other prophecies, is that it refers to clouds. Christ is revealed "coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." [Matthew 24:30]
Clouds and thick darkness are associated with "a great people and a strong," in Joel 2:2. The hordes of Gog and Magog "come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days." [Ezekiel 38:16]
John wrote, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." [Revelation 1:7] Peter described false teachers as "clouds that are carried with a tempest." [2 Peter 2:17] Similarly, Jude wrote: "clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots." [Jude 1:12]
These contrast with clouds such as Zechariah described, bright clouds, that give showers of rain, the rain representing the word of God. "Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field." [Zechariah 10:1]
Jesus said, "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn." [Matthew 24:30] This is about universal repentance. Joel wrote, "Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:" [Joel 2:12] "Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?" [Joel 2:17]
Zechariah said, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." [Zechariah 12:10] The ones who pierced him are not Jews who lived in the first century, but everyone who truly repents. Isaiah said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." [Isaiah 53:5]
Doug
As the more accurate Concordant Literal Translation quoted below indicates, it is not, "all the tribes of the earth (or, entire world,) rather it is, "all the tribes of the land" (ie., "land" of Israel.")
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory." (Matthew 2430; Concordant Literal Translation)
Moreover, Jesus Himself says:
"Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." (Matthew 2434; Concordant Literal Translation)
(I think we may have to form another thread. Nothing like eschatology to derail a topic! Let's get back to, "How Prophecy Was Sealed."
Quote from: reFORMer on February 19, 2011, 06:08:38 AM
As the more accurate Concordant Literal Translation quoted below indicates, it is not, "all the tribes of the earth (or, entire world,) rather it is, "all the tribes of the land" (ie., "land" of Israel.")
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory." (Matthew 2430; Concordant Literal Translation)
I think the Greek for "tribes of the earth" is the same as in Revelation 1:7. "Ge" can be translated either "earth" or "land;" we have words like "geology" and "geography" which are based on the Greek word for earth. In most translations the meaning seems to include far more than the tiny area of Palestine, although some preterists apparently prefer to read it in the more local and limited sense. But IMO, that destroys the meaning, in either or both passages. How can "every eye"
not be universal?
| |
Matthew 24:30 | |
Revelation 1:7 |
KJV | |
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn
| |
and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
|
NIV | |
And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn
| |
and "every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him";
and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him."
|
Young | |
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
| |
and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him,
and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land.
|
NKJV | |
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
| |
and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.
|
NASB | |
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn
| |
and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him;
and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.
|
Wycliffe | |
and then all the kindreds of the earth shall wail
| |
and each eye shall see him, and they that pricked him;
and all the kindreds of the earth shall bewail themselves on him
|
Holman | |
and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn
| |
and every eye will see Him,
including those who pierced Him.
And all the families of the earth
will mourn over Him.
|
Weymouth | |
and then will all the nations of the earth lament
| |
and every eye will see Him, and so will those who pierced Him;
and all the nations of the earth will gaze on Him and mourn.
|
Quote from: reFORMer on February 19, 2011, 06:08:38 AM
Moreover, Jesus Himself says:
"Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring." (Matthew 2434; Concordant Literal Translation)
Jesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever. And this is how he continues to "confirm the covenant," spoken of in Daniel 9:17. The week includes his three and a half year ministry, plus a symbolic three and a half years, symbol of the whole age of the church. It must be symbolic since it is the time in which he builds his church, the temple built
without hands, and the city whose builder and maker is God. Earthly time units do not apply to the work of God.
Doug
Quote from: DougJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
yes! I totally agree. That word refers to a type or a kind, as in, each after its own kind.
[this]
"generation"G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of)
G1085; a generation;
by implication an age (the period or
the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.
G1085
γένος
genosghen'-os
From G1096;
"kin" (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation,
kind (-red), nation, offspring,
stock.
PS I loved your long post above, Doug.
Quote from: Molly on February 19, 2011, 04:35:02 PM
PS I loved your long post above, Doug.
Good for you.
You may be interested in this too: http://tiny.cc/2zome (http://tiny.cc/2zome)
Doug
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
Tony, have you read this? Gary's NOT a full preterist, yet he, as I, believe some very significant things happened in 70 AD that need to be taken into account.
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html
Quote from: jabcat on February 20, 2011, 10:12:36 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
Tony, have you read this? Gary's NOT a full preterist, yet he, as I, believe some very significant things happened in 70 AD that need to be taken into account.
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html
I didn't. Is punishment awaiting now? :winkgrin:
Maybe you should start a new thread about that article.
I'm not saying it's flawed but I can't accept Gary's view until some things are cleared up :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 20, 2011, 10:12:36 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
Tony, have you read this? Gary's NOT a full preterist, yet he, as I, believe some very significant things happened in 70 AD that need to be taken into account.
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html
I didn't. Is punishment awaithing now? :winkgrin:
Maybe you should start a new thread about that article.
I'm not saying it's flawed but I can't accept Gary's view until some things are cleared up :winkgrin:
You can start it if you want. You may have some specific questions/points to make. :thumbsup:
At least it's more to consider in the whole discussion, and I think this article is just a quick summary, with many lines to be filled in. For instance, I still personally expect Jesus to return as He ushers in the next age. This may be all I have to say about it for now, still, I believe 70 A.D. was
extremely significant and is often over-looked. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
Or the only one to die of that generation?
Galatians 3:13:
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, ...The curse of the law is death.
Maybe this is of some use to someone:
The priests on regular bases heard a voice/voices coming from the Holy of Holies.
In 67, 68 or 69 AD they heard "Hence we depart"
I have to look up the exact year if it;s of interest to someone.
(the Jewish revolt began in 66
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2011, 10:46:04 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
Or the only one to die of that generation?
Galatians 3:13: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, ...
The curse of the law is death.
I always wonder when exactly that 'new system' started.
Death? Resurrection? Pentecost? When the temple op stone and wood was destroyed?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2011, 10:46:04 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
Or the only one to die of that generation?
Galatians 3:13: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, ...
The curse of the law is death.
I always wonder when exactly that 'new system' started.
Death? Resurrection? Pentecost? When the temple op stone and wood was destroyed?
Here?
21 He began by saying to them,
"Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."--Luke 4
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 10:53:24 AM
Maybe this is of some use to someone:
The priests on regular bases heard a voice/voices coming from the Holy of Holies.
In 67, 68 or 69 AD they heard "Hence we depart"
I have to look up the exact year if it;s of interest to someone.
(the Jewish revolt began in 66
Yes, that is very interesting.
Here's what Gary said in his article:
"The majority of the Jews read the signs wrong, which produced their destruction. There was a small group who read them right. They escaped the destruction and were allowed to enter into a new period of time. The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria. They were believers in the Messiah. "
I'd like to know more about that, too.
Eusebius (325)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)
"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)
"Their sect began after the capture of Jerusalem. For when all those who believed in Christ settled at that time for the most part in Peraea, in a city called Pella belonging to the Decapolis mentioned in the gospel, which is next to Batanaea and the land of Bashan, then they moved there and stayed.." (Panarion 30:2:7)
"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis " (On Weights and Measures 15)
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html
"Hence we depart"
I always assumed "we" was Father and some angels.
QuoteThey went to a place named Pella in Syria.
But reading your quote "we" just as well could be small exodus.
Do you have an exact (as possible) date of when people left to pella.
At Pentecost perhaps....
QuoteBut the occasion of this multitude being assembled for holy baptism was also much more sublime than the second occasion, which Josephus relates: how that on the day of Pentecost a quaking and panic took hold first of the priests and then of the whole congregation. Then also on a sudden a voice was heard from the very depths of the temple, saying these words: We depart hence, we depart.
Found it. It was on Pentecost 66 AD
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 11:47:20 AM
"Hence we depart"
I always assumed "we" was Father and some angels.
QuoteThey went to a place named Pella in Syria.
But reading your quote "we" just as well could be small exodus.
Do you have an exact (as possible) date of when people left to pella.
At Pentecost perhaps....
QuoteBut the occasion of this multitude being assembled for holy baptism was also much more sublime than the second occasion, which Josephus relates: how that on the day of Pentecost a quaking and panic took hold first of the priests and then of the whole congregation. Then also on a sudden a voice was heard from the very depths of the temple, saying these words: We depart hence, we depart.
From that link given above:
The conditions described by Josephus suggest a gradual migration starting in CE 64. In any case, some suggest the flight of the last remaining members of the Jerusalem congregation may have been on the Feast of Pentecost in CE 69. The details as recorded by Flavius Josephus were:
Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the temple...they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking and heard a sound as of a multitude saying, 'Let us remove hence.' (Josephus Wars bk. VI, ch. v, sec. 3, Whiston 1957:825.)
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 20, 2011, 09:55:56 AM
Quote from: Doug on February 19, 2011, 03:26:11 PMJesus included himself in that generation, and he remains alive, since he rose from the grave. His generation is unique; it is to last forever.
If Jesus included Himself in that generation He was the first one to die of that generation. The resurrected Jesus is another generation.
That seems a bit like reincarnation to me. In that doctrine the soul or spirit, after the death of the body, comes back to life in a newborn body. I.e, it is another generation.
In the case of Jesus, we have the fact of the empty tomb. What became of the body?
Luke 24:1-3
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
If the resurrected Jesus was another generation, why would his body need to be raised?
Luke shows that it was indeed the same Jesus that died, who was raised up.
Luke 24:6-7
He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
According to Luke, Jesus demonstrated to the disciples that he was the same Jesus who they knew, as he bore the marks of the crucifixion in his hands and feet.
Luke 24:39-40
Behold my hands and my feet, that
it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
IMO, to say that "the resurrected Jesus is another generation" misses the significance of his saying, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." [John 2:19] He did
not say, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise up a
different one."
So that idea is quickly slain. "The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword." [Hebrews 4:12]
Preterism is founded upon a mistaken interpretation of the saying of Jesus, that "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Of course not all was fulfilled in the first century. Jesus remains alive, and is part of that generation of which he spoke. His generation has not passed away.
Doug
Quote from: DougJesus remains alive, and is part of that generation of which he spoke. His generation has not passed away.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,...
--Heb 12
Quote from: Doug
Preterism is founded upon a mistaken interpretation of the saying of Jesus, that "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Of course not all was fulfilled in the first century. Jesus remains alive, and is part of that generation of which he spoke. His generation has not passed away.
Hi Doug,
Since Jesus is eternal, does this mean that the generation in which Jesus lived will never pass away? If this is true then, nothing in that generation will ever be fulfilled.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 20, 2011, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: Doug
Preterism is founded upon a mistaken interpretation of the saying of Jesus, that "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Of course not all was fulfilled in the first century. Jesus remains alive, and is part of that generation of which he spoke. His generation has not passed away.
Hi Doug,
Since Jesus is eternal, does this mean that the generation in which Jesus lived will never pass away?
Yes.
Quote from: CHB on February 20, 2011, 06:46:04 PM
If this is true then, nothing in that generation will ever be fulfilled.
CHB
You seem to have "shot yourself in the foot" here :laughing7:
Doug
Quote from: Molly on February 20, 2011, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: DougJesus remains alive, and is part of that generation of which he spoke. His generation has not passed away.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,...
--Heb 12
Luke 21:20-28
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.These days of vengeance were not the events of the first century, because
not all things were fulfilled in the first century. Therefore, the above scripture must refer to some other time frame, and perhaps events of a different kind, and a different nature than the conflict at the earthly Jerusalem in 70 AD. Perhaps it does not refer to the earthly Jerusalem or the earthly Judea at all. Today, the heavenly Jerusalem is compassed on every side, by armies who seek to entice Christians to accept their teachings. There are tens of thousands of denominations and sects, and various schools of interpretation of prophecy, eschatological views such as, Classical dispensationalism, Revised dispensationalism, Progressive dispensationalism, Mid-Acts dispensationalism, Ultra-dispensationalism, Partial preterism, Hyper-preterism, Transmillennialism, Historicism, and Idealism, etc.
Revelation 20 tells us that when Satan is loosed from his prison, he "shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
When that happens, what side will we be on? Among those who "compass the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city"? Or will we be in the city that is attacked? The heavenly Jerusalem is "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." [Hebrews 11:10]
Doug
I'm not sure about a gap, but I do know that when speaking of the advents of Jesus, they are often blended or continue from one to the other without there seeming to be any 'gap', yet of course there is. (Although I know there are some folks who do not believe Jesus ever returns physically to earth to restore paradise). I've also noticed that prophecy does the same thing. With usually an 'immediate' fulfillment and an end of man's ways/system fulfillment, and therein too is a gap..
:2c: :Sparkletooth:
The "camp of the saints" is compassed by "armies," which offer competing interpretations of the gospel, and of eschatology, and all of scripture.
If Luke 21:20-22 and related prophecies apply to the heavenly Jerusalem, it would account for the tens of thousands of denominations, and the rather sad state of the churches, declining interest in church, and the Bible, the endless scandals, etc. The church has been made desolate.
When Jesus began his ministry, in the town of Nazareth where he grew up, when he read the scriptures on the sabbath day, he quoted from Isaiah 61:1-2, and left half of verse 2 out. The first 3 verses of the chapter are:
Isaiah 61:1-3
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
The "day of vengeance of our God" in verse 2 must correspond to the "days of vengeance" that Jesus spoke of in Luke 21:20-22. In that case, it would not refer to the earthly Jerusalem; "to comfort all that mourn," and "To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;" are the kinds of things that apply to the church, when it has become desolate, not to the Jews of Jerusalem in 70 AD, for the simple reason that most of those Jews died, or were enslaved, and they were not comforted, and did not put on a garment of praise, nor were they anointed with "oil of joy." These things have never applied to ethnic Jews. They are promises to the saints.
The promises in the prophecy apply to the church, at the time of its desolation, when people recognize the desolate state to which the church has come, and respond appropriately. Daniel 9:27 says something is to be poured out on the desolator.
Isaiah 61:4 speaks of "building the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations." It is similar to the prophecy that James quoted in Acts 15, and applied to the church. That prophecy was also about building up ruins, those of the tabernacle of David.
Acts 15:14-18
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
The whole of the church age has been a time of building the tabernacles of the saints, their eternal tabernacles, in the heavenly Jerusalem. So we should look for the fulfillment of Isaiah 61:2-4, the comforting of the saints, the building up and repairing of 'desolations of many generations.'
Doug
Quote from: Doug on February 15, 2011, 02:53:05 PM
In Daniel 12:7 a swearing angel declares that when the time period called "a time, times and a half" is fulfilled, all the things in Daniel's prophecies will be fulfilled. This period, then, must extend to the end of the age, and to the resurrection of the saints. At the end of the chapter he gives two numbers, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, that are somehow connected with the "time, times and a half." [Daniel 12:11-12]
I mentioned previously that these numbers do not fit any real, earthly three and a half years. The same is true of the 1,260 days that John introduces in Revelation. But they all fit the pattern of "a time, times and a half," or three and a half symbolic years, where months are 30 days, and there are various combinations of regular years of 12 months, and leap years of 13 months.
1,335 days = 12 x 30 + 2 x 13 x 30 + 13 x 30 / 2
1,290 days = 13 x 30 + 2 x 12 x 30 + 12 x 30 / 2
1,260 days = 12 x 30 + 2 x 12 x 30 + 12 x 30 / 2
These all represent an "unreal" or non-literal three and a half years.
Depends on how you look at it. Is a leap year on the Gregorian calendar not a real year?
There are many calendars and as you wrote the Jewish calendar has leap months.
But I think the years of Daniel might be prophetic years.
A prophetic year is 360 days. 360x3.5=
1260 days
The twist is that prophetic years also have Sabbath and Jubilee years. Both have a leap month.
1260+30 (leap month) =
1290 days
So 1260 and 1290 align the 7 years align exactly with a Sabbath cycle.
But I think we can narrow down the possible years even more.
A Jubilee year follows the last 7th Sabbath year in a cycle. Again a year with a 13th month.
1290+30=1320
The civil year starts at 1 Tishri (usually September)
But the religious year starts is in Nisan (usually April)
It's the month of Passover. Passover is always on 14 and 15 Nisan.
There seems to be (or have been) a custom to 'wait' the first 15 days of the religious year until passover.
1320+15=
1335 days
or
1260+30+30+15=1335 days
I'm not saying the above with absolute certainty because I'm still studying it.
But it surely makes sense.
The big finally of a religious book uses a prophetic calendar.
Sabbath always was very prominent in the whole Bible.
And Jubilee even more so.
So those 3 numbers are not 7 years.
They are 7 years plus a small part of the 8th year.
Salvation begins at Jubilee when debts are forgiven and slaves (of sin) are set free.