Eternal Destruction

[Molly]

Yes indeed I can, however, I've seen other scriptures where God tells his followers to wipe out entire villages etc (verses that when I went to church, they avoided like the plague) as well as others that paint a ghastly picture that I won't address here, so I'm confused to say the least, hopefully that confusion will disappear with the passage of time

Yes, well, I'm going to avoid those passages, too, lol.  There have been whole threads here about those passages, and I don't want to get sidetracked by them now.  But, you say you are confused.  Confusion comes from not having all the facts.  So if we see that God is kind and loving to the stranger, and even commands it, in both the Old and New Testament,  [I'm assuming you would agree with that] could we at least admit we don't have all the facts on those passages if they are causing us confusion?  Confusion denotes an apparent contradiction.

So my approach is to lay those aside and continue to trust God at his word, at least until all the facts are known.  In other words, if there is something we don't understand, give God the benefit of the doubt and lay it aside, because that is the only way we have any hope of eventually getting all the facts.


Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

[WhiteWings]

But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?

I think he was right. I also think the standard 5%=elect is correct. (or even to high)
What I disagree with is: What is the elect? What is their destiny and the destiny of the non-elect?
It's not about heaven or hell.

Exactly, although you can see why Calvin might have thought that.

In particular, you don't need priests unless there are people who are not priests [at least at the moment] to minister to.  A priest stands in the gap between man and God.

Where did you get that number of 5 percent? lol

I'm a liar I've read such numbers on ET sites. Even calculations of how many plunge into hell per minute... 
99% 99 sheep is not enough :winkgrin:

[Molly]

Even calculations of how many plunge into hell per minute... 

Sheesh.  Don't these people have anything better to do?


Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

[jabcat]

Right or wrong, the 5% is a very common estimate of those who have actually "heard and responded to the gospel".  Throughout history, including the whole world, every nation, every tribe?  I think it may be close to being right.  Maybe 10-15 %?  Either way, if there's not a plan to save the rest in the age(s) to come, then Jesus' mission of "I came to seek and to save the lost"...well, it might make one wonder about the success of the mission.   :2c:

[shawn]

People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)

Calvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible.  I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.

Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.

Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.

The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as

We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message

I have to agree Shadow.  I grew up engulfed in Calvanist teachings.  I accepted their concept of predestination.  But, I have to say after actually examining the concept it makes no sense.

So, what I'm supposed to believe is we are to preach the gospel to the whole world.  But, God has already picked who would turn and who would burn?  Then why bother?  We can't change anything by preaching either way.  God's will be done even if we sit on our hands.  What is the purpose?  Then they would have me believe God tortures these individuals that never had a chance for eternity?  Come on.  I'm not sure how anyone could accept or believe such a concept.  It must seem absolutely barbaric and counterintuitive to 90% of mankind.  I'm starting to wonder why it doesn't to the other 10%.  Bad doctrine doesn't make you seperate from the world it just makes you in error.

But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


And election?


Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)



If so, then what might it mean?  Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.

I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge.  But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination.  If I am to create 10 different medicines and I know 9 of them won't work yet I continue to make them...I have created 9 drugs predestined for failure.

So, yes I believe God picks and chooses as I believe in God's sovereignty. I do not believe man can twart God's will.  This is the main issue I have will free will and ED.  It's the reason I continue to explore.  UR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones.   :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

UR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones.   :bigGrin:

UR is also a glass darkly. But lighter than ED and even more as ET.
:2c:

The most important thing is to figure out the framework of Fathers plan/promise.
The details we will never know I think.

[shawn]

UR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones.   :bigGrin:

UR is also a glass darkly. But lighter than ED and even more as ET.
:2c:

The most important thing is to figure out the framework of Fathers plan/promise.
The details we will never know I think.

I remember when I first read about UR.  I began weeping.  Something in my spirit had always told me ET is wrong.  A great weight was lifted from my chest and I knew true relationship with God for the first time.  Since that was only a little over a year ago and I have been "saved" since I was 7 you can guess what went on in those in between years.  Alot of law, a ton of lashing of self, failure, misery, depression and all the actions that go along with that.  I can't describe the amount of mental/spiritual anguish ET has brought me.

With that said, I initially refused to go into more depth because I sooo needed to believe it.  Once I got the courage to look I continued to see more and more evidence that ET was indeed not true and fundamentally unsound doctrine.  But, I have been torn since between ED and UR.  I am able to reconcile both with a loving God.  I will say though that UR answers more questions for me.  IMO ED from the english texts is more supported...or at the very least its more apparent to the naked eye.  I'm hoping I will get further clarification as I go along.  So, the journey continues with a new outlook on life and relationship with Jesus.

[Lefein]

Good grief...Thou generation of hypocrites and vipers!  Pharisees!

They have enough time to calculate how many people are going to the Hell they say is so horrid and everlasting, but they won't lift more than a finger to go out and use that time to fill the Earth with loving Gospel.

Shows the kind of God they are trying to mimic I suppose.  Indirect judgement via condone-ment of the many going into Hell fire, even to the point of cold, cruel, statistical calculation, demoting mankind into mere numbers that burn forever! -_-

[jabcat]

UR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones.   :bigGrin:

UR is also a glass darkly. But lighter than ED and even more as ET.
:2c:

The most important thing is to figure out the framework of Fathers plan/promise.
The details we will never know I think.

I remember when I first read about UR.  I began weeping.  Something in my spirit had always told me it's wrong.  A great weight was lifted from my chest and I knew true relationship with God for the first time.  Since that was only a little over a year ago and I have been "saved" since I was 7 you can guess what went on in those in between years.  Alot of law, a ton of lashing of self, failure, misery, depression and all the actions that go along with that.  I can't describe the amount of mental/spiritual anguish ET has brought me.

With that said, I initially refused to go into more depth because I sooo needed to believe it.  Once I got the courage to look I continued to see more and more evidence that ET was indeed not true and fundamentally unsound doctrine.  But, I have been torn since between ED and UR.  I am able to reconcile both with a loving God.  I will say though that UR answers more questions for me.  IMO ED from the english texts is more supported...or at the very least its more apparent to the naked eye.  I'm hoping I will get further clarification as I go along.  So, the journey continues with a new outlook on life and relationship with Jesus.

:thumbsup:  Praise God.

[LS]

I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge.  But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination.  

For me, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing.  

Think of it as a person driving on a road with choices to turn right, left, go straight, or stop.  Imagine God hovering above - He sees the entire road; He sees every turn we choose. He does not force us to make any of those turns, He allows us to choose.

He is outside of time (and we are within it). It's part of being omnipotent and omniscient - He can see me at this moment as well as 20 years ago as well as at the moment of my death all at once. Seeing all those moments (and every one in-between) and knowing everything I will say or do or think, doesn't mean I had no choice in the matter; He didn't cause me to sin and then punishes me for doing what He scripted for me to do.

He is God - why couldn't He tell the prophets in OT times what was going to unfold centuries later? He is God - why can't He allow us all complete freedom to choose good or evil, and still accomplish His plans?  He is God; the Bible is filled how He uses what people meant for evil, to accomplish good.

That is how I see prophecy and foreknowledge.   :2c:

[thinktank]

I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge.  But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination.  

For me, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing.  

Think of it as a person driving on a road with choices to turn right, left, go straight, or stop.  Imagine God hovering above - He sees the entire road; He sees every turn we choose. He does not force us to make any of those turns, He allows us to choose.

He is outside of time (and we are within it). It's part of being omnipotent and omniscient - He can see me at this moment as well as 20 years ago as well as at the moment of my death all at once. Seeing all those moments (and every one in-between) and knowing everything I will say or do or think, doesn't mean I had no choice in the matter; He didn't cause me to sin and then punishes me for doing what He scripted for me to do.

He is God - why couldn't He tell the prophets in OT times what was going to unfold centuries later? He is God - why can't He allow us all complete freedom to choose good or evil, and still accomplish His plans?  He is God; the Bible is filled how He uses what people meant for evil, to accomplish good.

That is how I see prophecy and foreknowledge.   :2c:

Spot on  :thumbsup: Although when it comes to whether God knows how our lives are going to be regardless, I'm not sure about that. I think time is so complex and the ways of God. I think the program called Dr who has some great ideas about how time works. This program shows how a man can travel back in time and change certain events, but some events cannot be changed no matter what he tries to do to fix things. So if man went back in time to try and save Jesus, there is nothing we could do to stop it, somehow God will find a way to get the plan unfolded, perhaps certain details could be changed about history, e.g maybe dr who could I don't know, change a small aspect without interfering with the scriptures, for ultimately it's God who fullfills scripture and not man, yet man can go against Gods word and make the word not come to pass or change Gods mind about that word.

[jabcat]

I agree that predestination and foreknowledge are 2 different things, and I believe your post does not preclude that, Shawn.  I understand you to say if God predestined, then He's in control - and if He foreknew, then He's still in control - because even with that foreknowledge, He still did what He did and does what He does.  I agree.

The mind of man plans his way, but God directs His steps.  Pr. 16:9

God is greater than our heart and knows all things.  I Jn 3:20


Ps. 139

3 You ...are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
        But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
        It is high, I cannot attain it.
       
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
        Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
        If I make my bed in sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
        And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
        And Your right hand shall hold me.    
13 For You formed my inward parts;
        You covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
        Marvelous are Your works,
        And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
        When I was made in secret,
        And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
    ... When I awake, I am still with You.   Pr. 16:9


He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.. Ephesians 1:5   (His will is 'thelema', much stronger than  echomai (sp?) which means 'wish')

So I believe the firstfruits are predestined, and the rest are destined – when all is under Jesus' authority, and He hands it over and  God is All in All.

[micah7:9]

I agree that predestination and foreknowledge are 2 different things, and I believe your post does not preclude that, Shawn.  I understand you to say if God predestined, then He's in control - and if He foreknew, then He's still in control - because even with that foreknowledge, He still did what He did and does what He does.  I agree.

The mind of man plans his way, but God directs His steps.  Pr. 16:9

God is greater than our heart and knows all things.  I Jn 3:20


Ps. 139

3 You ...are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
        But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
        It is high, I cannot attain it.
       
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
        Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
        If I make my bed in sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
        And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
        And Your right hand shall hold me.    
13 For You formed my inward parts;
        You covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
        Marvelous are Your works,
        And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
        When I was made in secret,
        And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
    ... When I awake, I am still with You.   Pr. 16:9


He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.. Ephesians 1:5   (His will is 'thelema', much stronger than  echomai (sp?) which means 'wish')

So I believe the firstfruits are predestined, and the rest are destined – when all is under Jesus' authority, and He hands it over and  God is All in All.

:thumbsup:

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin: micah.  God bless and continue to comfort you, brother.

[WhiteWings]

I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge.  But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination.  

For me, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing.

For me they are the same.

Think of it as a person driving on a road with choices to turn right, left, go straight, or stop.  Imagine God hovering above - He sees the entire road; He sees every turn we choose. He does not force us to make any of those turns, He allows us to choose.

Let's say one road leads to hell and the other to heaven. Because of His foreknowledge He knew what road you would take. With that knowledge in mind He still decided to create you. So He predestined you to a certain road. And with that road he predistined an outcome.

[micah7:9]

Aint all this your beginnning to post a taboo subject?  If not....

The way I see it, whether it be foreknowledge or presdestination, God is the cause behind whatever choice a man makes.(Psa. 103:14) So His foreknowledge is the cause in how you will chose.   And as for presdestination, well if you are predestinated, by
Him, you aint making no choices to the contrary, right?

[thinktank]

Aint all this your beginnning to post a taboo subject?  If not....

The way I see it, whether it be foreknowledge or presdestination, God is the cause behind whatever choice a man makes.(Psa. 103:14) So His foreknowledge is the cause in how you will chose.   And as for presdestination, well if you are predestinated, by
Him, you aint making no choices to the contrary, right?

What do you mean by God is the cause behind every choice? Do you mean God is the influencer or God is the one who made that choice for you?

I belive that man has a destiny but sometimes the disobedience of man means that destiny is posponed or even lost, I think it sometimes changes too if God plans to do something new.

[WhiteWings]

What do you mean by God is the cause behind every choice? Do you mean God is the influencer or God is the one who made that choice for you?

I don't remeber the exact words but something along this line: Man makes his own choices but God guides man's steps.

I belive that man has a destiny but sometimes the disobedience of man means that destiny is posponed or even lost, I think it sometimes changes too if God plans to do something new.

You mean mankind forces Father into backup plans. Father changes plans?
^KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

[thinktank]

What do you mean by God is the cause behind every choice? Do you mean God is the influencer or God is the one who made that choice for you?

I don't remeber the exact words but something along this line: Man makes his own choices but God guides man's steps.

I belive that man has a destiny but sometimes the disobedience of man means that destiny is posponed or even lost, I think it sometimes changes too if God plans to do something new.

You mean mankind forces Father into backup plans. Father changes plans?
^KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

That's a good analogy. God is the guide of my footsteps and prepares the way before me, that where he is I may be there also, so that we may meet, I am there waiting for you to ascend higher than the eagle, come up hither, let my words guide you and my fire burn away the dross.

Yeah I think man does force God into backup plans. Are we not beings of inperfection, do we not fail? But when we fail God picks up the pieces and turns our evil into good. For his plans towards us are not evil but plans to prosper us and to be in good health. But when we go astray the lord chastizes us for our benefit, which is grevious but is for our good. Israel sins God casts them out, Gods word say I will never again abandon you, but yet send judgements upon Israel and scatters them across the nation. the prophecy says that the redemer will come to Israel and Israel will rejoice, but the hard hearted Isrealis rejected the words of Jesus so that the apostle Paul no longer preaches to Israel but to the gentiles.

[Lefein]

Life, and existence is a bit like a living book.  We are the characters that God has written, and designed, and created for us a plot to follow.  It is not a plot of robotic control, but is a story where God's glory shines through the deep characters that all of us are.

Predestiny you might say, is God's inspiration being written; he has the story already planned out, from cover to endless cover.  The freewill of man is only in the writing as the pen of God moves across the page, the ink that is man, flowing forth freely from the nib - But always the nib has its purpose, its course, the words being written shall not be hindered, nor halted by the will of ink, however freely it may flow upon the page.

God even put his own character into the living book.  Jesus Christ, God the Author made manifest in the story he has created.  The idea of Christ being God's "character" in his own book is quite a revelation, and a neat way to explain the idea behind the trinity I think, I'll probably have to write something on it and post it here later! :D

[WhiteWings]

Yeah I think man does force God into backup plans.

My opinion is opposite. It's totally against all other teachings. For me it's simple; there are 2 choices:
a] God is not all powerful. God has flaws. An therefore mankind can thwart His plan.
b] God is endlessly powerful, smart, etc, etc. And therefore we can not change his plan.

Are we not beings of inperfection, do we not fail?

a] Man fails -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
b] Man is imperfect -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
c] Man is imperfect -> According to plan -> Design is succesful -> Perfect designer.

I pick option 'c'.
You seem to pick option 'a' and 'b'
You know even God has His limits.... ^KJVPsa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect:
He can't be perfect and a failure at the same time...  :winkgrin:

But when we fail God picks up the pieces and turns our evil into good.

Agreed. But picking up the pieces is as planned. Not a backup plan.

For his plans towards us are not evil but plans to prosper us and to be in good health.

Agreed. (unchanged plans)

But when we go astray the lord chastizes us for our benefit, which is grevious but is for our good.

Again agreed. But not as a backup plan.

For me it's very handy to always remember God's unlimited power, skills, intelligence, etc
Quite often I see choices considered and idea's defend of which I think: How can even be a question? It points to imperfect ways of God.
It makes me think of THIS list of Christian double talk.

[WhiteWings]

Life, and existence is a bit like a living book.  We are the characters that God has written, and designed, and created for us a plot to follow.  It is not a plot of robotic control, but is a story where God's glory shines through the deep characters that all of us are.

Sorry Lefein it isn't allowed to discuss free will.
But there isn't ban on discussions about animals. So I tell you something I've recently read on a fortune cookie :winkgrin:
Long ago someone build a huge maze for his sheep. The maze was really very huge. Millions of corridors. The maze had only one exit. Above the doorway was written "The fold". Anyway that man put his sheep in that maze. The sheep scattered all took their own route. Left. Right. Dead end. Reverse. And finally... one by one they entered the fold. They freely chose their own route within the design limitations of the maze. But did they really chose the exit?

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:FE6o8ETJt2JOFM:http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/divid3d/sheep_shepherd_maze.gif)

[Lefein]

That makes it difficult to discuss the nature of  the destiny of man, and his predestination unfortunately...

The maze makes sense however, it is a good illustration.

[shawn]

Just a thought for discussion...

What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.  I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will.  I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.  God knows point A and point B of our lives.  How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance.  I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner?  Did he will me to scratch my head?  Am I merely a puppet on a string?  While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will.  I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins.  Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.  

[shawn]

Life, and existence is a bit like a living book.  We are the characters that God has written, and designed, and created for us a plot to follow.  It is not a plot of robotic control, but is a story where God's glory shines through the deep characters that all of us are.

Sorry Lefein it isn't allowed to discuss free will.
But there isn't ban on discussions about animals. So I tell you something I've recently read on a fortune cookie :winkgrin:
Long ago someone build a huge maze for his sheep. The maze was really very huge. Millions of corridors. The maze had only one exit. Above the doorway was written "The fold". Anyway that man put his sheep in that maze. The sheep scattered all took their own route. Left. Right. Dead end. Reverse. And finally... one by one they entered the fold. They freely chose their own route within the design limitations of the maze. But did they really chose the exit?

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:FE6o8ETJt2JOFM:http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/divid3d/sheep_shepherd_maze.gif)

Then I apologize for my post.  But, it appears many skirt around the topic and make their points on fw.  Either we should discuss free will or totally leave the concept out of our posts.  If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor then I don't see the issue.  Free will is a subject that I would most certainly like to discuss because I don't have a firm grasp on the concept.