Eternal Destruction

[shawn]

Jabcat I agree totally in what you said.
I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay." They will say that God is Love but just cant get past, in their belief, that that Love also includes a punishment far greater than the human mind can comprhend upon another human being doing to another human being. They truly forget that God FORGIVES and that HE is the POTTER, not the DESTROYER People who accept the teaching of an eternal hell of torment cannot possibly have known the LOVE OF GOD nor do they
know the LOVE OF GOD as they will call eternal torment punishment justified and good.
Theology and its seminarys have, well there I go....I believe Jehovah is very much in the front of all our actions...
Isa 45:7  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Is it possible that those that believe in ED just believe that's what the Bible supports?  If anyone should "pay" it should be me.  How could I even play with the notion of others "paying".  

[micah7:9]

Can you see when compared how dismal some translations make the Word of God?
Mar 3:29

(ASV)  but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:

(KJV)  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

(WNT)  but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."

(YLT)  but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

Eternal=G165/166=aiōnios= ages, duration
Damnation =G2920  krisis=a tribunal; by implication justice
Did you know that the words "eternal damnation" are found only that one time in the entire Bible?
To build a doctrine/teaching on a verse that has no witness, is by itself is an error and a false doctrine.

[WhiteWings]

Is it possible that those that believe in ED just believe that's what the Bible supports?  If anyone should "pay" it should be me.  How could I even play with the notion of others "paying".

Right before Jesus died on the cross, he said: "It is finished". In the Greek language for which the New Testament was written in, this short phrase is just one word. This same Greek word was sometimes written across bills of debt in the same way we stamp a bill today with the words, "Paid in Full". When Jesus uttered these words from the cross, he was announcing that mankind's debt of sin had been paid in full – by Him.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7yrpxWkP_Zg/TCE4ESk1jOI/AAAAAAAABAc/cIjynr89owo/s1600/paid-in-full.jpg)

John 19:30
"So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said "Finished!" {tetelestai} {eternal salvation life work complete --- substitutionary spiritual death on the cross}. And having pushed His head forward, He dismissed His spirit {physical death}".


Tetelestai - Perfect Passive Indicative - Teleo = To end, to be finished, completed, fully executed, concluded, to discharge a debt totally and completely.

Intensive Perfect - Tetelestai = "Finished in the past with the result that it stands finished forever" - A completed action with emphasis on existing results of that past action.

Passive Voice - Represents the subject, Jesus Christ, as being acted upon by someone else, God the father, who imputed our sins to Jesus Christ and judged everyone of them.

Indicative Mood - Tetelestai = Declarative for a dogmatic statement of doctrine; salvation is totally complete.

Present State = Eternal salvation life is available.

Past Action = Jesus Christ was judged for our sins.

[jabcat]

Amen White Wings.  What a blessing!  Praise God.

Micah, following up on your post - amen to what you said.  I found this;

Gary Amirault writes - "The "forever until" principle should really more accurately be termed "present time until" principle, NOT "forever-until. As the reader can plainly see from the many Scriptures we quoted, the terms "forever and ever," "eternal," "everlasting," etc., are MIStranslations which appear in many of our leading "selling" translations, but they never appeared in the original languages of the Scriptures. The wages of sin have always been DEATH, NOT "everlasting" punishment, "everlasting" destruction" or burning in a lake of fire "for ever and ever."
In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:

Jonah was in the fish forever [olam]. But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).

¨ Sodom's fiery judgment is eternal [olam]. But only until God returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).

¨ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation forever [olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).

¨ Hills are everlasting [olam]. But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).

¨ Mountains are everlasting [olam]. But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).

¨ A slave serves his master forever [olam]. But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).

¨ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam]. But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).

¨ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam]. But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).

¨ These "stones" are to be a memorial forever [olam]. Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?

¨ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam]. But only until his death, of course (2K. 5:27).

¨ God dwells in Solomon's temple forever [olam]. But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).

¨ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam]. But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).

¨ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).

¨ Israel's judgment lasts forever [olam]. But only until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).

¨ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence. But only until many generations (Is. 60:15).

As we can see, olam does not mean "eternal" though it can last a very long time.  [Present time until - "it WILL occur until its purpose has been served" - jabcat.]  Also, "forever and ever" is not an accurate translation. How can you add "ever" to "forever?"  - End Quote

[shawn]

Is it possible that those that believe in ED just believe that's what the Bible supports?  If anyone should "pay" it should be me.  How could I even play with the notion of others "paying".

Right before Jesus died on the cross, he said: "It is finished". In the Greek language for which the New Testament was written in, this short phrase is just one word. This same Greek word was sometimes written across bills of debt in the same way we stamp a bill today with the words, "Paid in Full". When Jesus uttered these words from the cross, he was announcing that mankind's debt of sin had been paid in full – by Him.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7yrpxWkP_Zg/TCE4ESk1jOI/AAAAAAAABAc/cIjynr89owo/s1600/paid-in-full.jpg)

My point wasn't really to debate ED.  My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.  I want forgiveness for all including satan himself.  I want all of creation reconciled and saved.  I want to know my best friend who died in a car accident when he was 17 will be in heaven waiting on me.  And while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.  In my journey to find truth I have been called worse than an atheist, of the devil, a heretic etc.  I am hoping to avoid the demonizing of my position and the position of others like me...here in this place where I have found some solace.  I think it's very important to be tolerant of other view points within the body of Christ.  Or we risk being religious, dogmatic and not spiritual.  In my mind there is little worse than judging our neighbor and his motivations.

[shawn]

Amen White Wings.  What a blessing!  Praise God.

Micah, following up on your post - amen to what you said.  I found this;

Gary Amirault writes - "The "forever until" principle should really more accurately be termed "present time until" principle, NOT "forever-until. As the reader can plainly see from the many Scriptures we quoted, the terms "forever and ever," "eternal," "everlasting," etc., are MIStranslations which appear in many of our leading "selling" translations, but they never appeared in the original languages of the Scriptures. The wages of sin have always been DEATH, NOT "everlasting" punishment, "everlasting" destruction" or burning in a lake of fire "for ever and ever."
In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:

Jonah was in the fish forever [olam]. But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).

¨ Sodom's fiery judgment is eternal [olam]. But only until God returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).

¨ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation forever [olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).

¨ Hills are everlasting [olam]. But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).

¨ Mountains are everlasting [olam]. But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).

¨ A slave serves his master forever [olam]. But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).

¨ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam]. But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).

¨ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam]. But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).

¨ These "stones" are to be a memorial forever [olam]. Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?

¨ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam]. But only until his death, of course (2K. 5:27).

¨ God dwells in Solomon's temple forever [olam]. But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).

¨ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam]. But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).

¨ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).

¨ Israel's judgment lasts forever [olam]. But only until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).

¨ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence. But only until many generations (Is. 60:15).

As we can see, olam does not mean "eternal" though it can last a very long time.  [Present time until - "it WILL occur until its purpose has been served" - jabcat.]  Also, "forever and ever" is not an accurate translation. How can you add "ever" to "forever?"  - End Quote

Let me tell you some of my issues.  When it comes to scripture I am a simple man.  I admit I am not even half as well versed as many of you concerning scripture.  I am not a Biblical scholar, nor a linguist.  I do not speak Greek or Hebrew.  I must take the work of others and try to sort it out.  I do so with prayer and the aid of the Holy Spirit.  I have only gotten relief from the belief in eternal torture.  I am swayed 60/40 with ED vs UR but haven't gotten clear revelation on that subject.

I see a trend.  Mormans, Jehovahs Witnesses etc all have issues with the translations.  They have done their own research and drawn their own conclusions.  While I do not consider this a bad thing I do not agree with some/many of their stances.  I believe they may have come to some faulty conclusions.  What I am trying to sort out is if the UR crowd falls in this same group.

With that said, I have seen more love of Christ within this community than most.  I like the fruit of this message board.  For me, that says alot.  I will continue to study, read and pray.  I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love.

[WhiteWings]

My point wasn't really to debate ED.  My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.

Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.

And while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.

And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only way to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.

So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.

[shawn]

My point wasn't really to debate ED.  My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.

Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.

And while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.

And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.

So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.

No, even though I responded to your post I wasn't referring to you.

It was this quote that set me back a bit.

I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."

[thinktank]

A lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.

ok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"

But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.

It says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.

To me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.

Also if  everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed, so what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.

With Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.

These are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.

[shawn]

A lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.

ok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"

But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.

It says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.

To me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.

Also if  everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed, so what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.

With Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.

These are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.

I think that is very fair.  I do wonder if some people would even want to be in heaven.  Is God going to "hurt" these individuals until they come to repentance?  Is this a process of self revelation that will bring all into the fold?  Will there be an option to opt out of heaven and just die?  If not where is the choice in the matter?  If there is no choice how is that true repentance?  Let me see...being hurt or living in heaven...seems like an easy choice to me.

With that said, maybe it's not how any of us imagine it.  I won't limit my thinking on the matter to my imagination because that's not fair to UR.  What I do like about UR is the fact that Jesus wins.  In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.   

[WhiteWings]

A lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.

I only use the words like terrible and insane for ET.
I think ED is justice.
But I also think Father's mercy combined with Son's sacrifice causes UR=mercey to be true.

ok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"
But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.

Very true. Personally I haven't even found a vague reference to it.
But Jewish scholars are all convinced of 12 months at the max. (Likely the Hitler and Manson types)
The more common sinners awaits no more that 3 months.
But again: not a clue where to find it in OT....

It says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.

The smoke or their correction goes up for ages and ages.
And you are here long enough to know that many don't see the devil a the classical devil seen in cartoons.

To me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.

Firstly where does it say ED is instant. 5 years of roasting and then die is also ED.
Secondly, speaking for myself, there is no fire in that lake.
I can give you a long list with verses showing our God is a (refiners) fire.
Brimstone. The stuff to cleanse a defiled Temple. Brimstone that has as root word devine/godly.
What does LoF look like? Not a clue. But certainly not ET like.

Also if  everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed,

:thumbsup: God hates sin but loves the sinner....
So ED is true for sin.

so what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.

Good point. But consider this. A very bad person. (the Saul type) Somehow that person gets into religion and becomes a true saint. That person has become a Paul. Indeed it's no more Saul.
If we compare the old and new person how is that different from the before and after LoF person?

With Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.

I think it's the same with UR. UR also believes people need to be pure.
Dogs are not allowed in New Jerusalem...

These are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.

Yes both have their points. But Scripture doesn't contradict so both can't be true.
Imo in a way ED is part of UR. Sin gets utterly and permanently destroyed. And forever as the ETs say.
So perhaps anot ED discussion should be: What gets destroyed.

[LS]

In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.   

Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.

In Romans 2 we see this:

14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works.  I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few. 

[LS]

Imo in a way ED is part of UR. Sin gets utterly and permanently destroyed. And forever as the ETs say.
So perhaps anot ED discussion should be:

What

gets destroyed.

Go back to this thread, about Psalm 9.  I don't think there's any question about "what" gets destroyed in that one.

I acknowledge that sometimes one "could" read some of the passages as the sin being destroyed within someone (not the person), but I honestly don't think that case can be made in all passages.

So again I go back to the sheer number of scriptures that state the wicked are destroyed or perish, vs. the number that state everyone is saved in the end.   :mblush:

[shawn]

In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.   

Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.

In Romans 2 we see this:

14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works.  I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few. 

What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc?  Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy.   :happygrin: 

[LS]

In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.   

Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.

In Romans 2 we see this:

14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works.  I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few. 

What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc?  Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy.   :happygrin: 

LOL!  I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts.   :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

It's just a number ETs calculated. It's a good number I think.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
The world has 1-2 billion Christians. Sat 2.1 billion as the graph shows.
That 33%. So at least 67% ends in hell.
Many people that call themselfs Christians can't even mention one verse. Many are pure evil.
So let's halve the Christians. 84% in hell.
And of course only one denomination is correct.

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.

So in a way you say UR is 95% true? ==> 5% ED

[LS]

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.

So in a way you say UR is 95% true? ==> 5% ED

The Bible doesn't give numbers ... I don't attempt to, either.  While I am convicted that the Bible teaches eternal destruction, it is merely opinon that the actual number is "few."

[thinktank]

So again I go back to the sheer number of scriptures that state the wicked are destroyed or perish, vs. the number that state everyone is saved in the end.
Ls

Perhaps my mind blowing revelation will shed some light for you on this subject. I am preparing it and will show it to those who ask, so if you want it pm me and Ill send it when it is ready. But this is not for the faint hearted only for those who are strong.

[thinktank]

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.

So in a way you say UR is 95% true? ==> 5% ED

The Bible doesn't give numbers ... I don't attempt to, either.  While I am convicted that the Bible teaches eternal destruction, it is merely opinon that the actual number is "few."

This is what I believe too, the classical ED view is that people must repent in this age, but for me I belive one gets more chances in a future 1000 peace age. Because to me when the greatwhite throne judgment takes place, nobody is thrown in, only the beast and the false prophet and the devil are definite, the rest could be zero. Jesus might open the books and say, "well everyones in the book of life"
Jesus saved them all and nobody has to be thrown into eternal destruction. :2c:

I often use the word UR to describe universalism, but it can also mean universal reconciliation, thats what I belive currently.

[legoman]

A lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.

ok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"

But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.

It says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.

To me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.

Also if  everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed, so what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.

With Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.

These are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.

Hi thinktank,

Are you describing a UR type of belief where everyone is saved but some have to roast in a physical lake of fire for a while (ages perhaps)?  I know that is not what I believe.

Even though I believe many will go into the lake of fire, I don't believe it is literal fire for the purpose of torture/torment.  I believe it is symbolic of trials by fire and purifying by fire that will make one righteous.

In fact I believe we all go through this fire, some now in this life others later in the lake of fire.

One view which may be possible (but I haven't got my head around yet) is that we are all in the lake of fire RIGHT NOW. 

Anyway just some thoughts - UR isn't about torturing people until they submit... IMHO...

[shawn]

In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.   

Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.

In Romans 2 we see this:

14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works.  I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few. 

What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc?  Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy.   :happygrin: 

LOL!  I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts.   :cloud9:

Now you are talking.   :thumbsup:

[legoman]

I often use the word UR to describe universalism, but it can also mean universal reconciliation, thats what I belive currently.

What do you mean here?  IMHO UR is the same as Christian universalism (all saved through Christ, all reconciled to Christ)

(unless you were talking about something like unitarian universalism...)

[jabcat]

In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.    

Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.

In Romans 2 we see this:

14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works.  I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.  

What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc?  Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy.   :happygrin:  

LOL!  I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts.   :cloud9:

Now you are talking.   :thumbsup:

6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  John 14:6

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.  John 10:1

Since the scriptures clearly state anyone coming coming to the Father must do so through Jesus, then in my understanding, it in fact is the majority who go down the broad road of destruction (Jesus said so).  And since a very small minority of people who ever lived have had any understanding whatsoever of Who Jesus is (including those He Himself blinded and spoke in parables to so they wouldn't understand!), then to me it doesn't fit.

I also don't believe it's how many scriptures say destruction vs. how many are connected UR (although there are over 600).  It's how all the scriptures reconcile with each other.  So IMO, to assert that only a few, or even the majority are eternally dead, flies in the face of Jesus being the resurrection and the life;  Him holding the keys to death and the grave;  Him being victorious;  and leads us back again to, how do the destruction verses reconcile with all the many UR scriptures - and vice versa.  But IMO, as in Adam all died, and as in Jesus THE SAME ALL are made alive.  I don't see how all that fits with most of humanity being eternally dead.

Jesus is the Victor.  

[jabcat]

THE BELIEF OF THREE WAYS 0F SALVATION.  (Tentmaker books)

    One way, clearly revealed in the Bible and declared to be the only way, whereby man is to be saved through repentance and faith in the Saviour. By this method only a very small portion of the race have thus far been saved; for this way has never been made known to the vast majority of the race, and of the comparative few to whom it has been made known, only a very small minority, a very few of the few, accept it. Another way, whereby half of the human race, dying in infancy, are saved unconditionally. And still a third way where a portion (according to some, the majority) of the heathen are to be saved by living up to the light they have. Thus there are three distinct ways of salvation. One revealed, by which a very few comparatively will be saved. Two unrevealed, by which the majority of the race will be saved. You cannot escape this conclusion if you reason from the "orthodox" standpoint. Is the conclusion true? Are God's ways thus unequal?

    Nay, verily, but man's ways are unequal. God's word is made void by human tradition. Infants and heathen and "all men" are to be saved indeed, but not according to the above absurdities of human tradition, but according to the one only way of salvation "by grace through faith," to be made known to the great majority of the race "in the ages to come" (Eph. 2:7), for "God our Saviour will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth; for there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified [to all] in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6).

[shawn]

In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.    

Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.

In Romans 2 we see this:

14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works.  I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.

I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.  

What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc?  Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy.   :happygrin:  

LOL!  I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts.   :cloud9:

Now you are talking.   :thumbsup:

6Jesus said to him, "I am (A)the way, and (B)the truth, and (C)the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  John 14:6

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.  John 10:1

Since the scriptures clearly state anyone coming coming to the Father must do so through Jesus, then in my understanding, it in fact is the majority who go down the broad road of destruction (Jesus said so).  And since a very small minority of people who ever lived have had any understanding whatsoever of Who Jesus is (including those He Himself blinded and spoke in parables to so they wouldn't understand!), then to me it doesn't fit.

I also don't believe it's how many scriptures say destruction vs. how many are connected UR (although there are over 600).  It's how all the scriptures reconcile with each other.  So IMO, to assert that only a few, or even the majority are eternally dead, flies in the face of Jesus being the resurrection and the life;  Him holding the keys to death and the grave;  Him being victorious;  and leads us back again to, how do the destruction verses reconcile with all the many UR scriptures - and vice versa.  But IMO, as in Adam all died, and as in Jesus THE SAME ALL are made alive.  I don't see how all that fits with most of humanity being eternally dead.

Jesus is the Victor.  

The only way to salvation is through the blood of Christ.  If you believe in UR then this idea of judgement LS discussed becomes a moot point.  But, if you believe in ED this becomes significant.  But, if a man would have accepted Christ but didn't because of cultural/religious differences it makes sense that person would be judged according to the law written on his heart and still saved by the blood of Christ.  I have no issue with this stance scripturally.  I have more of an issue forcing salvation upon those who don't want it.