I sometimes see people on this board wonder how anyone could believe in eternal destruction, and I see others who are prayerfully considering universal salvation but have not been lead to a firm belief one way or another. So I thought I would simply show you scripturally why I believe that not all are saved, and those who are not will be destroyed.
First, scriptures that are explicit in saying that some are destroyed, perish, or "are no more."
(Note: In this first, Paul is literally in tears ... if he believed all are saved, why would he be in such distress?)
Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Act 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."
Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
Psalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."
Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."
Psa 73:27 But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.
Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.
Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.
Psalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.
Obadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed;
The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.
Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
Psa 28:5 They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
Rev 21:8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
These passages are not as direct about destruction itself, but I think that each one of them indicates that not "all" are saved.
1 Chron 28
9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
10 Consider now, for the LORD has chosen you to build a temple as a sanctuary. Be strong and do the work."
Jas 1:13 No one experiencing temptation should say, I am being tempted by God; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.
Jas 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
Jas 5:20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has he ever said: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Heb 2:2 For if the word announced through angels proved firm, and every transgression and disobedience received its just recompense,
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? Announced originally through the Lord, it was confirmed for us by those who had heard.
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the leader to their salvation perfect through suffering.
Heb 5:9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Job 20:4 Do you not know this from olden time, since man was placed upon the earth,
Job 20:5 That the triumph of the wicked is short and the joy of the impious but for a moment?
Job 20:6 Though his pride mount up to the heavens and his head reach to the clouds,
Job 20:7 Yet he perishes forever like the fuel of his fire, and the onlookers say, Where is he?
Job 20:8 Like a dream he takes flight and is not found again; he fades away like a vision of the night.
Job 20:9 The eye which saw him does so no more; nor shall his dwelling again behold him.
Dan 12:1 At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time. At that time your people shall escape, everyone who is found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace.
Jud 1:5 I wish to remind you, although you know all things, that (the) Lord who once saved a people from the land of Egypt later destroyed those who did not believe.
Jud 1:6 The angels too, who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains, in gloom, for the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 just as (Sodom and Gomorrah and the (cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Going back to the lake of fire in Revelation ...
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
1 Corinthians 15:26 tells us that "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
If that takes place in this passage of Revelation - where death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire - then those in verse 15 must also be destroyed, "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life."
"The book of life" is also mentioned here:
Php 4:3 Yes, and I ask you also, my true yokemate, to help them, for they have struggled at my side in promoting the gospel, along with Clement and my other co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Also, "the book" (although not specifically the book of life) is mentioned in quite a few OT passages. Here are only a few, but often it is used in narrations where names are "written in" or "blotted out."
Dan 12:1 At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time. At that time your people shall escape, everyone who is found written in the book.
Psa 69:28 Strike them from the book of the living; do not count them among the just!
I'm not going to attempt to tackle all of this in detail. Others will join in. I'll just present these thoughts as sort of prompts while looking at LS' posts more closely.
I believe, almost without exception, that threatenings in the Old Testament were of a temporal, earthly nature - not having to do with eternal destiny.
Things described as "eternal" in the Old Testament, at least often seem to be talking in terms of "until it had served its purpose". The "eternal" fire burning at the altar, is no longer burning. The "eternal" fire at the gate of Jerusalem is no longer burning. Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever", etc.
Destroyed is from apollumi. There are whole studies on that, but basically that things can be lost, destroyed, but there still be redemption. Things not of God destroyed, yet the man "saved as by fire". Maybe some such as Hitler won't have much if anything left, other than the spirit God gave them - which returns to God upon death. (See WW's thread about the lost sheep and lost coin - it's the same word - apollumi.)
Accurate translation is also vital. Some translations are hopelessly confusing with their uses of forever, ever, eternal, hell, etc. (I don't know that I've ever seen "pool of fire".) :dontknow:
Some things to consider just as a piece of the whole. James.
Jabcat I agree totally in what you said.
I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay." They will say that God is Love but just cant get past, in their belief, that that Love also includes a punishment far greater than the human mind can comprhend upon another human being doing to another human being. They truly forget that God FORGIVES and that HE is the POTTER, not the DESTROYER People who accept the teaching of an eternal hell of torment cannot possibly have known the LOVE OF GOD nor do they
know the LOVE OF GOD as they will call eternal torment punishment justified and good.
Theology and its seminarys have, well there I go....I believe Jehovah is very much in the front of all our actions...
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Eternal Death (Conditional Mortality, Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
By Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
I've sharpened my :swordfight: and cleaned my :Shoot:. Let go!
Just kidding. Thanks for taking the time to put this together :thumbsup:
I'll answer in parts. Just the things I can answer. I have no illusion I'l able to refute them all. But still I'l give it a honest attempt. :winkgrin:
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 06:26:23 AM
I sometimes see people on this board wonder how anyone could believe in eternal destruction, and I see others who are prayerfully considering universal salvation but have not been lead to a firm belief one way or another. So I thought I would simply show you scripturally why I believe that not all are saved, and those who are not will be destroyed.
First, scriptures that are explicit in saying that some are destroyed, perish, or "are no more."
(Note: In this first, Paul is literally in tears ... if he believed all are saved, why would he be in such distress?)
I think it's twofold. The correction of Father can be hash so Paul felt sorry for those people. Just as parents don't enjoy slapping a kid on the b*tt to discipline them.
Secondly I think Paul was sad humanity does so much evil against/in the name of God.
QuotePhp 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.
Clear. But what exactly is destruction? See the thread about the lost coin/son/sheep. All destroyed but still a happy end for all of them.
Quote2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Eternal=age-during. Weird... For me that can only mean a few thing's:
a] Destruction is not what you believe it is. -> Like sin (=tars) is destroyed but not the sinner (wheat)
b] Complete destruction but not permanent. -> Sodom was set as an example but is promised to be restored.
c] Combination of the two above.
God used a word (destruction) that sounds warning, firm and angry. But why 'soften the blow' by adding a limiter (age) in the same verse?
QuoteEze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
All have sinned...
In Adam
all die...
ED for all?
QuoteSir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.
Sir? What book is that?
Quote2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."
I think that "only" means be part of the first (fruit) resurrection. Be part of the Son's millenium Kingdom.
QuotePsalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."
KJVLam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
Arent those cast (off) into LoF for ED cast of for ever?
QuotePsalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
This seems to be one of the very few time YLT uses for ever instead of age.
YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.
ever=ad
Anyone?
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2010, 06:46:44 AM
Accurate translation is also vital. Some translations are hopelessly confusing with their uses of forever, ever, eternal, hell, etc. (I don't know that I've ever seen "pool of fire".) :dontknow:
Pool here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6864.0
Are you up White Wings, I have troubles big time, if you are can we talk?
I am sitting up waiting on word that my son may have died in a gold mine accident in Elko Nevada. Only two men have not been acounted for and my son is one. Ive been estranged from him for over 30 years, we have met and he has five wonderful grandchildren, No one has said yet that he is dead. His mother and one of his sisters is there I am letting the Lord keep me.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 09:20:12 AM
Are you up White Wings, I have troubles big time, if you are can we talk?
I'm up. The day just started where I live (8:40 am) I'm at office doing all sort of things beside work :laughing7:
What can I say Micah... when there is hope there is life.
Many miners have be found days after they got trapped.
I know of one event that it was 1 or 2 full weeks. Little to no food but they drank water that dripped in the mine.
So don't give up yet. There is still hope. Even if it doesn't feel like that at all.
Amen. Hope and trust.
Thank you, I have only the knowledge that God is Love, I just have not figured out how He administers it so that I can understand it.
Praying for you and for your son, Micah...
LS,
This post goes a little off-topic for a reason. Then it ends on-topic again.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 09:02:53 AM
QuotePsalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
This seems to be one of the very few time YLT uses for ever instead of age.
YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.
ever=ad
Anyone?
KJVGen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.
KJVPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.
That's weird the same word has 2 different Strong numbers. And very different meanings although the note in Strong say it's similar
The reason I quotes from YLT was to prove all those ever verses are about age; so refute ED.
But then I read "age and ever" very odd. "Even to the age" would make more sense.
But if I look H5703 and especially it's root H5710 the verse seems to say:
WWPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name until the end of the age.
If we don't know the meaning of words how can we understand the verse....
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 07:11:51 AM
it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."
Micah, I assure you - nothing could be further from the truth. I am a commited believer in non-violence; pro-life from conception to natural death, and I have no desire to make anyone "pay."
I simply believe that any person, no matter how uneducated, can hear the word read and understand, without all of the dictionaries and lexicons and study tools we have today. I also believe that the writers of the Bible were easily as able to express "in the end all are saved" in plain language, as they expressed that some are destroyed in the examples I posted.
I mentioned in another thread that
for me, there are at most 3 passages that give me pause in regards to universal salvation. And then there are all of these that I posted, that I believe indicate the wicked are destroyed.
We can reason that God is Love and "wouldn't destroy them" But let's be honest here -
how many of us would have done anything the way that God did it? OT or NT - isn't there an awful lot that we would never have thought to do, and don't really understand now?
And yet we TRUST and have FAITH that He is God, His ways are not our ways, that some day we will understand, and we choose to follow Him.
That is where I am, in my walk now. I am simply accepting what I see the Bible saying. I know you all do the same, and I have no quarrel with those who believe differently. I didn't post this to argue or to beat anybody up, but I hope that as you study these and come to your own conclusions, you also don't make broad assumptions about me or why "I" see destruction.
In Peace :cloud9:
Oh dear Micah - I hadn't read entirely through the thread. I am praying for you and your beloved son. My heart goes out to you as you wait. :grouppray:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 02:54:47 PM
LS,
This post goes a little off-topic for a reason. Then it ends on-topic again.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 09:02:53 AM
QuotePsalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
This seems to be one of the very few time YLT uses for ever instead of age.
YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.
ever=ad
Anyone?
KJVGen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.
KJVPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.
That's weird the same word has 2 different Strong numbers. And very different meanings although the note in Strong say it's similar
The reason I quotes from YLT was to prove all those ever verses are about age; so refute ED.
But then I read "age and ever" very odd. "Even to the age" would make more sense.
But if I look H5703 and especially it's root H5710 the verse seems to say:
WWPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name until the end of the age.
If we don't know the meaning of words how can we understand the verse....
Hi WhiteWings - that particular passage in Psalms uses two different words for each "ever" (for ever and ever), as you noted. I note how you chose the definitions that most fit what you already believe; you could just as easily have chosen "perpetuity, eternity, ever." How do you determine which to use? Not asking as an attack - it's just something I see over and over; I know many people here distrust translations as tainted, but I tend to think that most translations are honest renderings from people with a lot more knowledge of proper usage and customs than I have.
Also, to you & Jabcat, there probably are several Bible versions used in the passages I posted; as I read and study I drop different passages into a file, but I read and study out of different Bibles. Some of those are probably NASB, many of them would be NAB which is the Catholic bible. "Sir" is the book of Sirach from the Catholic Bible, and I think there is a passage I quoted from Maccabees, which is also in the Catholic bible. There are other passages in those books that would apply to this topic, but I know not everyone accepts those as sacred scripture, as I do. I assume each is able to accept or dismiss them from their own discernment, so I included a few.
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 03:55:15 PMHi WhiteWings - that particular passage in Psalms uses two different words for each "ever" (for ever and ever), as you noted. I note how you chose the definitions that most fit what you already believe; you could just as easily have chosen "perpetuity, eternity, ever." How do you determine which to use? Not asking as an attack - it's just something I see over and over;
Three fold answer:
1.
I can chose between H5703 and H5704. A 50-50 change I'm right.
The above word orginates from H5710. And that defention edges much more to UR
So my change to be right simply is better that yours. Just speaking about this single verse.
But I didn't like. That's why I put an effort in it to discuss it.
2.
Logic.
For the age and ever. Lets say an age is 5 years.
So Father judges some: I sentence you to eternal destruction. Erm, and 5 year extra!
3.
Commentaries and views.
The vast majority of church fathers was UR. Few possibly leaned to ED. And none or 1 to ET.
Jews, the guys who read Hebrew :winkgrin: , see a clear UR message in OT. AFAIK it's agreed on by the very orthodox to the more liberal ones.
So that combined determins my choice. But no doctrine is based in one verse. So for me it's statistics. Stacking the odds in my favor.
Let's say the above verse is 75% in favor of UR. I mentally collect such stats for everything I read. Combined=my opinion
I don't rule out ED. It's just that it's chances are bad. Someting like: 70%-UR, 15%-ED and 5%-ET (and then I'm generous to the ET camp)
QuoteI know many people here distrust translations as tainted, but I tend to think that most translations are honest renderings from people with a lot more knowledge of proper usage and customs than I have.
That's also easy to anwer. The the early translators had no clue about the meaning of many Greek words they where translating.
Not to mention Augustine who what less skilled in Greek that the average young Greek child.
A quote from this thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6620.msg73392#msg73392)
The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") were written in the
Greek language. However it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle;
rather, they were written in Koine ("Coin-A" or everyday) Greek, which
was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First
Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman
Empire. Our Savior talked plainly to people, the way we would talk to
one another. Therefore, plain everyday English has been used in this
Bible to properly translate the everyday Greek that the writers used,
instead of using the religious and theological terms found in the other
Bible translations, which distort the original meaning.
The translators of the King James Version (KJV) were unaware of
the differences between Koine Greek and Classical Greek. The relevant
manuscripts had not yet been discovered.
As late as 1886 Joseph Henry
Thayer could still list 767 distinctively "New Testament" words with no
known parallels in any known Greek literature. But now, because of
recent discoveries and research over the past 100 years, well over 99%
of the words of the New Contract Writings have been found in other
Greek literature. Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators followed the
syntax of Classical Greek; but we now know that the Greek of the New
Contract Writings corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek.
This makes
a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.Until 1895 the language of the New Contract Writings was known
as "Tired Greek," "Bad Greek," "Jewish Greek," "Biblical Greek," "New
Testament Greek," or "Holy Ghost language," because it was different
from Classical Greek. But in 1895 (284 years after the KJV was first
published) the Greek and Bible Scholar Adolf Deissmann discovered
that the New Contract Writings were written in Koine (everyday) Greek.While studying some recently discovered collections of nonliterary
documents, he suddenly recognized a great similarity between what he
was reading there and what he was accustomed to reading in the
Greek New Contract Writings. These nonliterary documents that he was
studying were many different types of legal documents, business letters,
personal letters, love letters, diaries, horoscopes, magic formulas, etc.
However, even though almost a century has passed since this universally
accepted great discovery, not until now has a translation into true
everyday English been accomplished.
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 03:55:15 PM
Also, to you & Jabcat, there probably are several Bible versions used in the passages I posted; as I read and study I drop different passages into a file, but I read and study out of different Bibles. Some of those are probably NASB, many of them would be NAB which is the Catholic bible. "Sir" is the book of Sirach from the Catholic Bible, and I think there is a passage I quoted from Maccabees, which is also in the Catholic bible. There are other passages in those books that would apply to this topic, but I know not everyone accepts those as sacred scripture, as I do. I assume each is able to accept or dismiss them from their own discernment, so I included a few.
Yeah I figure out Sir=Sirah.
Not much to say about it besides I don't like such books. Mainly because Strong is not linked to them (in my software) So it's getting hard to check word meanings.
And for me; no word meanings means impossible to study.... :happygrin:
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 03:46:08 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 07:11:51 AM
it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."
Micah, I assure you - nothing could be further from the truth.
Listen up you two!!! :laughing7:
The bill has been payed nearly 2000 years ago (or even at the foundation of the world) :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 05:07:56 PM
Yeah I figure out Sir=Sirah.
Not much to say about it besides I don't like such books. Mainly because Strong is not linked to them (in my software) So it's getting hard to check word meanings.
And for me; no word meanings means impossible to study.... :happygrin:
I hear you! I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's. I did find an online link that might help you somewhat; it's at home and I'll send it later if you'd like.
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 05:20:33 PMI hear you! I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's.
Problem solved for free: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
It's all a matter of taste. All are fine. e-sword has the most resources (AFAIK)
I greatly prefer programs but many on this forum use sites like Blue letter Bible.
If you can't choose try e-Sword or The Word
While they have great overlap in functionality they are also complementary (sp?)
Personally I use www.bibleworks.com
Just choose one and if you have problems... ask.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 05:59:58 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 05:20:33 PMI hear you! I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's.
Problem solved for free: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
It's all a matter of taste. All are fine. e-sword has the most resources (AFAIK)
I greatly prefer programs but many on this forum use sites like Blue letter Bible.
If you can't choose try e-Sword or The Word
While they have great overlap in functionality they are also complementary (sp?)
Personally I use www.bibleworks.com
Just choose one and if you have problems... ask.
I mean, I wish I had some of those for the deuterocanonical books like Sirach, Wisdom, Macabees.
I have eSword and I use it all the time - I have the NAB module but it doesn't have a Strong's type translator associated with it; it's just the text.
Your link is AWESOME and I'll be poking around there too!
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 13, 2010, 07:11:51 AM
Jabcat I agree totally in what you said.
I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay." They will say that God is Love but just cant get past, in their belief, that that Love also includes a punishment far greater than the human mind can comprhend upon another human being doing to another human being. They truly forget that God FORGIVES and that HE is the POTTER, not the DESTROYER People who accept the teaching of an eternal hell of torment cannot possibly have known the LOVE OF GOD nor do they
know the LOVE OF GOD as they will call eternal torment punishment justified and good.
Theology and its seminarys have, well there I go....I believe Jehovah is very much in the front of all our actions...
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Is it possible that those that believe in ED just believe that's what the Bible supports? If anyone should "pay" it should be me. How could I even play with the notion of others "paying".
Can you see when compared how dismal some translations make the Word of God?
Mar 3:29
(ASV) but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:
(KJV) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
(WNT) but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."
(YLT) but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness--to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'
Eternal=G165/166=aiōnios= ages, duration
Damnation =G2920 krisis=a tribunal; by implication justice
Did you know that the words "eternal damnation" are found only that one time in the entire Bible?
To build a doctrine/teaching on a verse that has no witness, is by itself is an error and a false doctrine.
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 06:43:01 PMIs it possible that those that believe in ED just believe that's what the Bible supports? If anyone should "pay" it should be me. How could I even play with the notion of others "paying".
Right before Jesus died on the cross, he said: "It is finished". In the Greek language for which the New Testament was written in, this short phrase is just one word. This same Greek word was sometimes written across bills of debt in the same way we stamp a bill today with the words, "Paid in Full". When Jesus uttered these words from the cross, he was announcing that mankind's debt of sin had been paid in full – by Him.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7yrpxWkP_Zg/TCE4ESk1jOI/AAAAAAAABAc/cIjynr89owo/s1600/paid-in-full.jpg)
John 19:30
"So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said "Finished!" {tetelestai} {eternal salvation life work complete --- substitutionary spiritual death on the cross}. And having pushed His head forward, He dismissed His spirit {physical death}".
Tetelestai - Perfect Passive Indicative - Teleo = To end, to be finished, completed, fully executed, concluded, to discharge a debt totally and completely.
Intensive Perfect - Tetelestai = "Finished in the past with the result that it stands finished forever" - A completed action with emphasis on existing results of that past action.
Passive Voice - Represents the subject, Jesus Christ, as being acted upon by someone else, God the father, who imputed our sins to Jesus Christ and judged everyone of them.
Indicative Mood - Tetelestai = Declarative for a dogmatic statement of doctrine; salvation is totally complete.
Present State = Eternal salvation life is available.
Past Action = Jesus Christ was judged for our sins.
Amen White Wings. What a blessing! Praise God.
Micah, following up on your post - amen to what you said. I found this;
Gary Amirault writes - "The "forever until" principle should really more accurately be termed "present time until" principle, NOT "forever-until. As the reader can plainly see from the many Scriptures we quoted, the terms "forever and ever," "eternal," "everlasting," etc., are MIStranslations which appear in many of our leading "selling" translations, but they never appeared in the original languages of the Scriptures. The wages of sin have always been DEATH, NOT "everlasting" punishment, "everlasting" destruction" or burning in a lake of fire "for ever and ever."
In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:
Jonah was in the fish forever [olam]. But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
¨ Sodom's fiery judgment is eternal [olam]. But only until God returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).
¨ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation forever [olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).
¨ Hills are everlasting [olam]. But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
¨ Mountains are everlasting [olam]. But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).
¨ A slave serves his master forever [olam]. But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).
¨ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam]. But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
¨ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam]. But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
¨ These "stones" are to be a memorial forever [olam]. Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?
¨ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam]. But only until his death, of course (2K. 5:27).
¨ God dwells in Solomon's temple forever [olam]. But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
¨ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam]. But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
¨ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).
¨ Israel's judgment lasts forever [olam]. But only until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).
¨ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence. But only until many generations (Is. 60:15).
As we can see, olam does not mean "eternal" though it can last a very long time. [Present time until - "it WILL occur until its purpose has been served" - jabcat.] Also, "forever and ever" is not an accurate translation. How can you add "ever" to "forever?" - End Quote
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 08:51:07 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 06:43:01 PMIs it possible that those that believe in ED just believe that's what the Bible supports? If anyone should "pay" it should be me. How could I even play with the notion of others "paying".
Right before Jesus died on the cross, he said: "It is finished". In the Greek language for which the New Testament was written in, this short phrase is just one word. This same Greek word was sometimes written across bills of debt in the same way we stamp a bill today with the words, "Paid in Full". When Jesus uttered these words from the cross, he was announcing that mankind's debt of sin had been paid in full – by Him.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7yrpxWkP_Zg/TCE4ESk1jOI/AAAAAAAABAc/cIjynr89owo/s1600/paid-in-full.jpg)
My point wasn't really to debate ED. My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED. I want forgiveness for all including satan himself. I want all of creation reconciled and saved. I want to know my best friend who died in a car accident when he was 17 will be in heaven waiting on me. And while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it. In my journey to find truth I have been called worse than an atheist, of the devil, a heretic etc. I am hoping to avoid the demonizing of my position and the position of others like me...here in this place where I have found some solace. I think it's very important to be tolerant of other view points within the body of Christ. Or we risk being religious, dogmatic and not spiritual. In my mind there is little worse than judging our neighbor and his motivations.
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2010, 08:53:42 PM
Amen White Wings. What a blessing! Praise God.
Micah, following up on your post - amen to what you said. I found this;
Gary Amirault writes - "The "forever until" principle should really more accurately be termed "present time until" principle, NOT "forever-until. As the reader can plainly see from the many Scriptures we quoted, the terms "forever and ever," "eternal," "everlasting," etc., are MIStranslations which appear in many of our leading "selling" translations, but they never appeared in the original languages of the Scriptures. The wages of sin have always been DEATH, NOT "everlasting" punishment, "everlasting" destruction" or burning in a lake of fire "for ever and ever."
In History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution, Edward Beecher, D.D., pointed out:
Jonah was in the fish forever [olam]. But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
¨ Sodom's fiery judgment is eternal [olam]. But only until God returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).
¨ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation forever [olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).
¨ Hills are everlasting [olam]. But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
¨ Mountains are everlasting [olam]. But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).
¨ A slave serves his master forever [olam]. But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).
¨ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam]. But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
¨ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam]. But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
¨ These "stones" are to be a memorial forever [olam]. Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?
¨ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam]. But only until his death, of course (2K. 5:27).
¨ God dwells in Solomon's temple forever [olam]. But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
¨ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam]. But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
¨ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).
¨ Israel's judgment lasts forever [olam]. But only until the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).
¨ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence. But only until many generations (Is. 60:15).
As we can see, olam does not mean "eternal" though it can last a very long time. [Present time until - "it WILL occur until its purpose has been served" - jabcat.] Also, "forever and ever" is not an accurate translation. How can you add "ever" to "forever?" - End Quote
Let me tell you some of my issues. When it comes to scripture I am a simple man. I admit I am not even half as well versed as many of you concerning scripture. I am not a Biblical scholar, nor a linguist. I do not speak Greek or Hebrew. I must take the work of others and try to sort it out. I do so with prayer and the aid of the Holy Spirit. I have only gotten relief from the belief in eternal torture. I am swayed 60/40 with ED vs UR but haven't gotten clear revelation on that subject.
I see a trend. Mormans, Jehovahs Witnesses etc all have issues with the translations. They have done their own research and drawn their own conclusions. While I do not consider this a bad thing I do not agree with some/many of their stances. I believe they may have come to some faulty conclusions. What I am trying to sort out is if the UR crowd falls in this same group.
With that said, I have seen more love of Christ within this community than most. I like the fruit of this message board. For me, that says alot. I will continue to study, read and pray. I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love.
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:03:57 PMMy point wasn't really to debate ED. My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.
Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.
QuoteAnd while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.
And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only way to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.
So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 10:19:40 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:03:57 PMMy point wasn't really to debate ED. My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.
Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.
QuoteAnd while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.
And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.
So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.
No, even though I responded to your post I wasn't referring to you.
It was this quote that set me back a bit.
I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."
A lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.
ok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"
But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.
It says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.
To me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.
Also if everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed, so what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.
With Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.
These are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.
Quote from: thinktank on August 13, 2010, 10:37:54 PM
A lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.
ok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"
But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.
It says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.
To me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.
Also if everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed, so what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.
With Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.
These are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.
I think that is very fair. I do wonder if some people would even want to be in heaven. Is God going to "hurt" these individuals until they come to repentance? Is this a process of self revelation that will bring all into the fold? Will there be an option to opt out of heaven and just die? If not where is the choice in the matter? If there is no choice how is that true repentance? Let me see...being hurt or living in heaven...seems like an easy choice to me.
With that said, maybe it's not how any of us imagine it. I won't limit my thinking on the matter to my imagination because that's not fair to UR. What I do like about UR is the fact that Jesus wins. In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.
Quote from: thinktank on August 13, 2010, 10:37:54 PMA lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.
I only use the words like terrible and insane for ET.
I think ED is justice.
But I also think Father's mercy combined with Son's sacrifice causes UR=mercey to be true.
Quoteok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"
But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.
Very true. Personally I haven't even found a vague reference to it.
But Jewish scholars are all convinced of 12 months at the max. (Likely the Hitler and Manson types)
The more common sinners awaits no more that 3 months.
But again: not a clue where to find it in OT....
QuoteIt says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.
The smoke or their correction goes up for ages and ages.
And you are here long enough to know that many don't see the devil a the classical devil seen in cartoons.
QuoteTo me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.
Firstly where does it say ED is instant. 5 years of roasting and then die is also ED.
Secondly, speaking for myself, there is no fire in that lake.
I can give you a long list with verses showing our God is a (refiners) fire.
Brimstone. The stuff to cleanse a defiled Temple. Brimstone that has as root word devine/godly.
What does LoF look like? Not a clue. But certainly not ET like.
QuoteAlso if everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed,
:thumbsup: God hates sin but loves the sinner....
So ED is true for sin.
Quoteso what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.
Good point. But consider this. A very bad person. (the Saul type) Somehow that person gets into religion and becomes a true saint. That person has become a Paul. Indeed it's no more Saul.
If we compare the old and new person how is that different from the before and after LoF person?
QuoteWith Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.
I think it's the same with UR. UR also believes people need to be pure.
Dogs are not allowed in New Jerusalem...
QuoteThese are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.
Yes both have their points. But Scripture doesn't contradict so both can't be true.
Imo in a way ED is part of UR. Sin gets utterly and permanently destroyed. And forever as the ETs say.
So perhaps anot ED discussion should be:
What gets destroyed.
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:46:53 PM
In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.
Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.
In Romans 2 we see this:
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works. I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.
I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 11:02:40 PM
Imo in a way ED is part of UR. Sin gets utterly and permanently destroyed. And forever as the ETs say.
So perhaps anot ED discussion should be: QuoteWhat
gets destroyed.
Go back to this (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8358.0) thread, about Psalm 9. I don't think there's any question about "what" gets destroyed in that one.
I acknowledge that sometimes one "could" read some of the passages as the sin being destroyed within someone (not the person), but I honestly don't think that case can be made in all passages.
So again I go back to the sheer number of scriptures that state the wicked are destroyed or perish, vs. the number that state everyone is saved in the end. :mblush:
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:46:53 PM
In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.
Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.
In Romans 2 we see this:
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works. I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.
I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc? Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy. :happygrin:
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 11:13:49 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:46:53 PM
In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.
Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.
In Romans 2 we see this:
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works. I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.
I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc? Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy. :happygrin:
LOL! I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts. :cloud9:
It's just a number ETs calculated. It's a good number I think.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
The world has 1-2 billion Christians. Sat 2.1 billion as the graph shows.
That 33%. So at least 67% ends in hell.
Many people that call themselfs Christians can't even mention one verse. Many are pure evil.
So let's halve the Christians. 84% in hell.
And of course only one denomination is correct.
QuoteI honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
So in a way you say UR is 95% true? ==> 5% ED
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 11:17:41 PM
QuoteI honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
So in a way you say UR is 95% true? ==> 5% ED
The Bible doesn't give numbers ... I don't attempt to, either. While I am convicted that the Bible teaches eternal destruction, it is merely opinon that the actual number is "few."
So again I go back to the sheer number of scriptures that state the wicked are destroyed or perish, vs. the number that state everyone is saved in the end.
Ls
Perhaps my mind blowing revelation will shed some light for you on this subject. I am preparing it and will show it to those who ask, so if you want it pm me and Ill send it when it is ready. But this is not for the faint hearted only for those who are strong.
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:21:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 11:17:41 PM
QuoteI honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
So in a way you say UR is 95% true? ==> 5% ED
The Bible doesn't give numbers ... I don't attempt to, either. While I am convicted that the Bible teaches eternal destruction, it is merely opinon that the actual number is "few."
This is what I believe too, the classical ED view is that people must repent in this age, but for me I belive one gets more chances in a future 1000 peace age. Because to me when the greatwhite throne judgment takes place, nobody is thrown in, only the beast and the false prophet and the devil are definite, the rest could be zero. Jesus might open the books and say, "well everyones in the book of life"
Jesus saved them all and nobody has to be thrown into eternal destruction. :2c:
I often use the word UR to describe universalism, but it can also mean universal reconciliation, thats what I belive currently.
Quote from: thinktank on August 13, 2010, 10:37:54 PM
A lot of people here think ED is terrible. But to me UR is just as terrible or similar.
ok in UR non Christian people are thrown into the lake of fire and are "hurt"
But then we are not told how long they are "hurt" for.
It says concerning the devil the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever.
To me Id rather ED than the idea of a x time amount of roasting.
Also if everything about the carnal non beliver is purified as gold purifies in the fire, then it means that more or less the person is ED because their entire carnal personality is being destroyed, so what is left is nothing more than an image of who they use to be. So what is the point? God may as well just create another person. ITs a bit like deleting all the memories of the person away and all is left is their image.
With Ed the people get purified upon the earth in a gradual manner and then also get another chance during the 1000 millenium peace to willingly get this thing right. Rather than being cast hand and foot into the fire without consent.
These are some of the issues I have with UR, I do not hate Ur otherwise I would not be here and sometimes I lean towards this direction but I am making the point that those who hate ED don't realize what they are saying. To me both viewpoints have good points and bad points.
Hi thinktank,
Are you describing a UR type of belief where everyone is saved but some have to roast in a physical lake of fire for a while (ages perhaps)? I know that is not what I believe.
Even though I believe many will go into the lake of fire, I don't believe it is literal fire for the purpose of torture/torment. I believe it is symbolic of trials by fire and purifying by fire that will make one righteous.
In fact I believe we all go through this fire, some now in this life others later in the lake of fire.
One view which may be possible (but I haven't got my head around yet) is that we are all in the lake of fire RIGHT NOW.
Anyway just some thoughts - UR isn't about torturing people until they submit... IMHO...
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 11:13:49 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:46:53 PM
In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.
Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.
In Romans 2 we see this:
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works. I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.
I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc? Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy. :happygrin:
LOL! I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts. :cloud9:
Now you are talking. :thumbsup:
Quote from: thinktank on August 13, 2010, 11:28:51 PM
I often use the word UR to describe universalism, but it can also mean universal reconciliation, thats what I belive currently.
What do you mean here? IMHO UR is the same as Christian universalism (all saved through Christ, all reconciled to Christ)
(unless you were talking about something like unitarian universalism...)
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 11:46:07 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 11:13:49 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:46:53 PM
In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.
Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.
In Romans 2 we see this:
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works. I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.
I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc? Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy. :happygrin:
LOL! I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts. :cloud9:
Now you are talking. :thumbsup:
6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. John 10:1
Since the scriptures clearly state anyone coming coming to the Father must do so through Jesus, then in my understanding, it in fact is the majority who go down the broad road of destruction (Jesus said so). And since a very small minority of people who ever lived have had any understanding whatsoever of Who Jesus is (including those He Himself blinded and spoke in parables to so they wouldn't understand!), then to me it doesn't fit.
I also don't believe it's how many scriptures say destruction vs. how many are connected UR (although there are over 600). It's how all the scriptures reconcile with each other. So IMO, to assert that only a few, or even the majority are eternally dead, flies in the face of Jesus being the resurrection and the life; Him holding the keys to death and the grave; Him being victorious; and leads us back again to, how do the destruction verses reconcile with all the many UR scriptures - and vice versa. But IMO, as in Adam all died, and as in Jesus THE SAME ALL are made alive. I don't see how all that fits with most of humanity being eternally dead.
Jesus is the Victor.
THE BELIEF OF THREE WAYS 0F SALVATION. (Tentmaker books)
One way, clearly revealed in the Bible and declared to be the only way, whereby man is to be saved through repentance and faith in the Saviour. By this method only a very small portion of the race have thus far been saved; for this way has never been made known to the vast majority of the race, and of the comparative few to whom it has been made known, only a very small minority, a very few of the few, accept it. Another way, whereby half of the human race, dying in infancy, are saved unconditionally. And still a third way where a portion (according to some, the majority) of the heathen are to be saved by living up to the light they have. Thus there are three distinct ways of salvation. One revealed, by which a very few comparatively will be saved. Two unrevealed, by which the majority of the race will be saved. You cannot escape this conclusion if you reason from the "orthodox" standpoint. Is the conclusion true? Are God's ways thus unequal?
Nay, verily, but man's ways are unequal. God's word is made void by human tradition. Infants and heathen and "all men" are to be saved indeed, but not according to the above absurdities of human tradition, but according to the one only way of salvation "by grace through faith," to be made known to the great majority of the race "in the ages to come" (Eph. 2:7), for "God our Saviour will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth; for there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified [to all] in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6).
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 12:10:44 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 11:46:07 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 11:13:49 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:46:53 PM
In ED 95% of the earths population being destroyed doesn't seem much like defeating sin and death.
Hi Shawn - I know we aren't given numbers or percentages in scripture, but I don't believe it's anything like 95%.
In Romans 2 we see this:
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
To me, this is saying that people who have not heard of God but who by their actions have acted rightly, are judged by their works. I believe this judgement is described in Matthew 25:31-46 ... I don't think that is a judgement of believers, but of everyone else.
I honestly believe that the number of people who have chosen destruction are very few.
What about those who have lived their life for spiritual principles but are Islamic, Buddhists etc? Careful, you are starting to sound like a Universalist rather than a UR guy. :happygrin:
LOL! I know ... but I think they are included and are judged by what they knew and how they followed the law written on their hearts. :cloud9:
Now you are talking. :thumbsup:
6Jesus said to him, "I am (A)the way, and (B)the truth, and (C)the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. John 10:1
Since the scriptures clearly state anyone coming coming to the Father must do so through Jesus, then in my understanding, it in fact is the majority who go down the broad road of destruction (Jesus said so). And since a very small minority of people who ever lived have had any understanding whatsoever of Who Jesus is (including those He Himself blinded and spoke in parables to so they wouldn't understand!), then to me it doesn't fit.
I also don't believe it's how many scriptures say destruction vs. how many are connected UR (although there are over 600). It's how all the scriptures reconcile with each other. So IMO, to assert that only a few, or even the majority are eternally dead, flies in the face of Jesus being the resurrection and the life; Him holding the keys to death and the grave; Him being victorious; and leads us back again to, how do the destruction verses reconcile with all the many UR scriptures - and vice versa. But IMO, as in Adam all died, and as in Jesus THE SAME ALL are made alive. I don't see how all that fits with most of humanity being eternally dead.
Jesus is the Victor.
The only way to salvation is through the blood of Christ. If you believe in UR then this idea of judgement LS discussed becomes a moot point. But, if you believe in ED this becomes significant. But, if a man would have accepted Christ but didn't because of cultural/religious differences it makes sense that person would be judged according to the law written on his heart and still saved by the blood of Christ. I have no issue with this stance scripturally. I have more of an issue forcing salvation upon those who don't want it.
Did you "want" salvation? Maybe you did. If so, another question would be, "did Saul want salvation"? I believe God sets the conditions. He is Lord.
From J. Preston Eby - "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16).
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. ... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Romans 11:32
Strange as it may seem there are many today who insist that they believe in salvation by grace, yet they insist that man has the power to "make a decision for Christ." They affirm that the Bible teaches that the Creator of all things is surely omnipotent, but they are also quite confident that finite man is fully capable of obstructing the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5). Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart, nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides.- End quote
Also Brother Shawn, please explain how you see the idea of judgment being a moot point if one believes in UR, but not if ED? Maybe I'm just missing what you mean.
I believe in UR, and I don't believe that way at all. I have a fear of my Father's discipline. Just because God loves us doesn't mean He won't spank. In fact, the scriptures say that's why He does discipline, and that we are to not despise it.
Couple of random points based on various posts in this thread;
Quote Shawn; "I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love." Amen. :2thumbs:
As far as the scriptures being easy to understand, simple - "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter". Pr. 25:2
Paraphrasing Jesus - "I spoke to them in parables, because if I didn't they would understand and come to me. It hasn't been given them to understand the...kingdom".
JWs, Mormons, etc., and their interest in translations - are UR people in the same group? Both of those groups mentioned do not believe in Jesus as the Savior, as in His sacrifice is sufficient. There are Unitarian Universalists, that IMO, generally is not a Christ-centered organization. They are not Biblical Universalists, Christian Universalists, Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ UR believers.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8094.msg95116#msg95116
Hopefully that will help in all our search.
Thanks, James.
The Wicked are Brought to Destruction without Remedy.
The Wicked is He/She that Defiles the Temple of God which He/She is. We ( All of Us ) are the Temple of God. There is a Carnal ( Natural ) Man/Women and a Spiritual Man/Women. Whichever One is Sitting on the Throne of One's Heart is He/She which either Defiles the Temple of God or Sanctifies the Temple of God. That which Defiles the Temple of God shall be Destroyed and Blotted out of Existence. The Sinner Sitting on the Throne of One's Heart shall be utterly Destroyed and shall Perish Forever. God shall Cleanse His Temple ( All of Us ) with Fire.
Amen Mosh. :thumbsup:
A couple of posts relevant to this discussion I found;
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8145.msg96446#msg96446
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8145.msg96458#msg96458
"There remains faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love". Amen. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 01:25:04 AM
Also Brother Shawn, please explain how you see the idea of judgment being a moot point if one believes in UR, but not if ED? Maybe I'm just missing what you mean.
I believe in UR, and I don't believe that way at all. I have a fear of my Father's discipline. Just because God loves us doesn't mean He won't spank. In fact, the scriptures say that's why He does discipline, and that we are to not despise it.
Couple of random points based on various posts in this thread;
Quote Shawn; "I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love." Amen. :2thumbs:
As far as the scriptures being easy to understand, simple - "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter". Pr. 25:2
Paraphrasing Jesus - "I spoke to them in parables, because if I didn't they would understand and come to me. It hasn't been given them to understand the...kingdom".
JWs, Mormons, etc., and their interest in translations - are UR people in the same group? Both of those groups mentioned do not believe in Jesus as the Savior, as in His sacrifice is sufficient. There are Unitarian Universalists, that IMO, generally is not a Christ-centered organization. They are not Biblical Universalists, Christian Universalists, Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ UR believers.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8094.msg95116#msg95116
Hopefully that will help in all our search.
Thanks, James.
I think you took my post wrong. I was talking about UR concerning those of faith but not of the Christian faith. Because ultimately everyone is saved. The only place judgement comes into play with UR is with the notion of "burning" out the impurities. I would suppose the time in the "flame" would be the judgement.
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 01:25:04 AM
Also Brother Shawn, please explain how you see the idea of judgment being a moot point if one believes in UR, but not if ED? Maybe I'm just missing what you mean.
I believe in UR, and I don't believe that way at all. I have a fear of my Father's discipline. Just because God loves us doesn't mean He won't spank. In fact, the scriptures say that's why He does discipline, and that we are to not despise it.
Couple of random points based on various posts in this thread;
Quote Shawn; "I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love." Amen. :2thumbs:
As far as the scriptures being easy to understand, simple - "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter". Pr. 25:2
Paraphrasing Jesus - "I spoke to them in parables, because if I didn't they would understand and come to me. It hasn't been given them to understand the...kingdom".
JWs, Mormons, etc., and their interest in translations - are UR people in the same group? Both of those groups mentioned do not believe in Jesus as the Savior, as in His sacrifice is sufficient. There are Unitarian Universalists, that IMO, generally is not a Christ-centered organization. They are not Biblical Universalists, Christian Universalists, Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ UR believers.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8094.msg95116#msg95116
Hopefully that will help in all our search.
Thanks, James.
I understand all that as I am fairly well versed on the viewpoints of UR. I think you missed my point here as well.
I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"? (Or maybe not. :mshrug:)
Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that. I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later. Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.
If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:
Speaking of which :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts. :mblush:
Hi thinktank,
Are you describing a UR type of belief where everyone is saved but some have to roast in a physical lake of fire for a while (ages perhaps)? I know that is not what I believe.
Even though I believe many will go into the lake of fire, I don't believe it is literal fire for the purpose of torture/torment. I believe it is symbolic of trials by fire and purifying by fire that will make one righteous.
In fact I believe we all go through this fire, some now in this life others later in the lake of fire.
One view which may be possible (but I haven't got my head around yet) is that we are all in the lake of fire RIGHT NOW.
Anyway just some thoughts - UR isn't about torturing people until they submit... IMHO...
legoman
Hello legoman there is some indication in the bible that the lake of fire could be some kind of fire.
The fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us, but changes us to his glory as we submit to him. But the lake of fire is something where people are thrown into by Gods anger/displease.
e.g Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation speaks of a lake of fire and also contains references to smoke. If this means anhilation then it means the devil will be roasted and the smoke of him will rise up a quick death, the reason I say quick death whitewings is because God has already used fire as a judgment in the old testmant and he quickly makes a short work of them. e.g lots wife, vaporized in seconds, Sodom and Gomorah cast down in an instant. However how does smoke in the passage of revelation about the devil relate to UR?
What does smoke mean in the context of the lord purifying gold from inpurities?
Currently we reside upon the earth and there are prophecies in malachi and in psalms that the lord will come to baptize us with fire and refine us., which has happened and is happening now to those that belive. If this is what happens to people in Universalism in a future age then that is great and is similar to what I belive in that, people will be purified upon the earth, some now , while others will be purified after the lord comes back to set his kingdom up, and my argument here is that people have the right to reject this purging fire because God is a gentleman, which means from my view it is possible for someone to reject the lord if they wish. But the classic view of UR as described by Garry is that the people who do not know the lord, will spiritually be taken up to Gods throne and then thrown into some kind of spiritual fire. So if indeed there is such a thing as a spiritual fire,
1. Causes the devil to be thrown in which causes smoke, but in Universalism people don't die, so what does this smoke mean?
2. Also the scripture says that God himself is a puryfying fire, when we accept God as saviour that fire purges us from sin, but the non christian does not ask for this fire and so does not change spiritually as Christians do. But in the book of revelation the lake of fire is seperate thing from God, whereas the baptism of fire or the purging fire is God himself purging us with the holy spirit.
3.Jesus also talks about someone (actually a parable, so not a real person, but an example) who entered in without a robe and says to bind him hand and foot and cast him into fire. (I need to read that passage again to make things clearer.)
So to me I find it hard to believe in classic universalism and I think the lake of fire is annhilation, which I belive is consistent with the old testament scriptures and consistent with fire being destruction. Otherwise we have torment for x amount of time. unless I have missed something about the lake of fire,as I continue to learn about this.
So to me the great hope of universalism and my belief is not the lake of fire but that Jesus will save all people from ever going into that fire and this is the faith that he will.
Brother thinktank, you questioned the place of smoke...I remembered some of Brother Eby's thoughts on this; hope it's meaningful. :thumbsup:
In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.
I realize that the above thoughts define the subject very briefly, but let us summarize the meanings thus: BURN means combustion; to change the form of. FIRE means heat and light. BRIMSTONE means divine. Putting these three together can we not see that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is, actually, DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!
Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9). And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory." Judgment, therefore, is not an eternal condition, but it is given to produce that victory. Judgments of themselves do not save anyone, but they are used by God to bring one to one's self, to effect a change of attitude and will, to consume away the stubbornness and rebellion of men. Punishment by fire is a beneficent one. "Our GOD is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). The basic purpose of this divine fire of God is to cleanse, purify, purge, temper and change. It is to rid of impurities, of filth, of undesirable elements. There is no better way to deal with filth than to deal with it by fire.
I thought the above was more specific to smoke :mblush:. It alludes to it, but I think he said something even more direct. I'll try to find it.
Getting closer :laughing7:
"Thus, to burn means to change. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up! It seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 10:19:40 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:03:57 PMMy point wasn't really to debate ED. My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.
Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.
QuoteAnd while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.
And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.
So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.
No, even though I responded to your post I wasn't referring to you.
It was this quote that set me back a bit.
I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."
That would be me Micah, and what suggests to you that people who profess that not all will be saved, that that it is not so? Any theolgy that imposes a punishment such as Eternal Damnation and Eternal Torment in and of it self is saying..."Im good and you are bad and you dont get the good stuff, you get the really bad stuff." The Gospel of Jesus Christ is He died for the sins of world, (mankind creation) and when you, mankind, are dragged (if need be) to the Truth you will be judged, be that now, while you have a space on the earth, or later at the resurrection. The Good News is you will be made ONE with the Father.
Thats Good News! Find the Good News in an eternal damnation or eternal torment, from a God WHO IS LOVE?
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 03:14:59 AM
Getting closer :laughing7:
"Thus, to burn means to change. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up! It seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."
Glory! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 03:14:59 AM
Getting closer :laughing7:
"Thus, to burn means to change. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up! It seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."
I think I see your point and thank you for your gracious reply and efforts, but is it really that complicated? Why didn't God simply say I will wash you with soap
I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.
But the ed view has scriptural and natural backing based on the old testament. I think the best support for the lake of fire being a spiritual fire are the scriptures that say he's like a refiners fire etc but I'm not sure how it can tie up with what I said about God being seperate from the lake of fire.
God bless.
:bigGrin:
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 03:51:57 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 03:14:59 AM
Getting closer :laughing7:
"Thus, to burn means to change. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up! It seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."
I think I see your point and thank you for your gracious reply and efforts, but is it really that complicated? Why didn't God simply say I will wash you with soap
I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.
But the ed view has scriptural and natural backing based on the old testament. I think the best support for the lake of fire being a spiritual fire are the scriptures that say he's like a refiners fire etc but I'm not sure how it can tie up with what I said about God being seperate from the lake of fire.
God bless.
1. Its all spiritual fire.
2. God purposely made it hard for us to figure it out.
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:13:18 AM
I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"? (Or maybe not. :mshrug:)
Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that. I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later. Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.
If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:
Speaking of which :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts. :mblush:
I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 14, 2010, 03:49:55 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 10:19:40 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 13, 2010, 10:03:57 PMMy point wasn't really to debate ED. My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.
Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.
QuoteAnd while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.
And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.
So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.
No, even though I responded to your post I wasn't referring to you.
It was this quote that set me back a bit.
I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."
That would be me Micah, and what suggests to you that people who profess that not all will be saved, that that it is not so? Any theolgy that imposes a punishment such as Eternal Damnation and Eternal Torment in and of it self is saying..."Im good and you are bad and you dont get the good stuff, you get the really bad stuff." The Gospel of Jesus Christ is He died for the sins of world, (mankind creation) and when you, mankind, are dragged (if need be) to the Truth you will be judged, be that now, while you have a space on the earth, or later at the resurrection. The Good News is you will be made ONE with the Father.
Thats Good News! Find the Good News in an eternal damnation or eternal torment, from a God WHO IS LOVE?
ED isn't eternal damnation it's eternal death big difference. And it's not what I think...it's what God thinks. I am not judge and jury but you seem to think that's my belief. I have already stated I want everyone saved. I am amongest the greatest of sinners. I do not deserve heaven. I judge no man. But, I am looking at scripture and coming up with conclusion based on what I believe has been written. So, to extrapolate my interpretation as something more sinister is insulting.
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 02:27:44 AM
Hello legoman there is some indication in the bible that the lake of fire could be some kind of fire.
The fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us, but changes us to his glory as we submit to him. But the lake of fire is something where people are thrown into by Gods anger/displease.
"the fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us" - disagree here. While I guess it depends what you mean by "hurt" - we go through trials by fire every day of our life. And they certainly do "hurt" us in the sense that they change us and refine us. Watch a loved one suffer through cancer for 10 years - it hurts, and it teaches you compassion, caring, patience, and understanding.
Burning unbelievers in physical fire is useless and purposeless. But putting them through a spiritual lake of fire that is designed to teach them godly character - character traits like patience, kindness, love - that is a great thing.
Where's willieH when you need him - he firmly believes we are all in the lake of fire right now. I'm undecided, but certainly we go through fire in this life and the lake of fire will provide the same effects.
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:13:18 AM
I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"? (Or maybe not. :mshrug:)
Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that. I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later. Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.
If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:
Speaking of which :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts. :mblush:
I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Thanks for the chance to reason through some things Shawn. Let me share how I look at this piece you've brought up. God made all, the just and the unjust. Vessels of honor and dishonor. He creates good and evil ("I the Lord do all these things".) He says when he judges, it brings righteousness. Also, that the end of the Lord is merciful. It's not the best terminology, but I'll say it like this. I see it as "God created all (turned all to disobedience/futility...) and He'll "fix" it all (...so that He may have mercy on ALL). So as far as forced to do so, because the above sentence (scripture) is His plan. HOWEVER, I actually never say God forces someone...I say He creates the conditions necessary for repentance - bringing us to the end of ourselves, which leaves a view of Him.
Which brings me to this; As I've shared in so many words with my agnostic brother - "Bill, I believe you
will believe. When you're standing in the
direct presence of the most beautiful, awesome Being you could ever behold, and you realize what you've missed - it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out to SomeOne Who is pure love, beauty, and has everything you could ever possibly need or want - and you finally realize it?"
God is Love.
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:13:18 AM
I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"? (Or maybe not. :mshrug:)
Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that. I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later. Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.
If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:
Speaking of which :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts. :mblush:
I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Hi Shawn,
If I may interject... it is a strange idea to say that some would reject God when confronted with the full weight of His love and power in their face. Again think Saul/Paul - that is the model for every conversion.
Does God force people to repent? The word force is interesting. Love is a force. Does my wife force me to love her? Well her beauty, kindness, and good cooking sure is a force to deal with!
I'm not sure what you mean when you say those who endured pain in this life would be forced to endure pain in the next life... again that is not what UR proposes.
IMHO I see it like this. God will show each one of us exactly what we need in order to willingly repent so we will learn godly character and come to Him. Should be an easy job since He designed us and knows our innermost thoughts.
Again I say: UR is not "torture Him until He loves God". That is some strange hybrid ET beliefs that perhaps you are still stuck with (or not). God is not in the business of torturing people.
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 05:20:06 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:13:18 AM
I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"? (Or maybe not. :mshrug:)
Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that. I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later. Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.
If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:
Speaking of which :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts. :mblush:
I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Thanks for the chance to reason through some things Shawn. Let me share how I look at this piece you've brought up. God made all, the just and the unjust. Vessels of honor and dishonor. He creates good and evil ("I the Lord do all these things".) He says when he judges, it brings righteousness. Also, that the end of the Lord is merciful. It's not the best terminology, but I'll say it like this. I see it as "God created all (turned all to disobedience/futility...) and He'll "fix" it all (...so that He may have mercy on ALL). So as far as forced to do so, because the above sentence (scripture) is His plan. HOWEVER, I actually never say God forces someone...I say He creates the conditions necessary for repentance - bringing us to the end of ourselves, which leaves a view of Him.
Which brings me to this; As I've shared in so many words with my agnostic brother - "Bill, I believe you will believe. When you're standing in the direct presence of the most beautiful, awesome Being you could ever behold, and you realize what you've missed - it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out to SomeOne Who is pure love, beauty, and has everything you could ever possibly need or want - and you finally realize it?"
God is Love.
I have debated the UR side on this issue when I was feeling a bit froggy. :bigGrin: I stated that the Bible is merely telling us the end of the story. He forces no one into salvation. He just knows the ending. And like you said, anyone presented with the true beauty and magnificance of the Lord will repent...even the most hardened of hearts.
With that said, where is the purgatory like Gehenna in all of that? I don't see it. If we stand before God and marvel, confess and worship (every knee shall bow...) then why the need for the lake of fire?
Quote from: legoman on August 14, 2010, 05:29:20 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:13:18 AM
I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"? (Or maybe not. :mshrug:)
Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that. I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later. Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.
If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:
Speaking of which :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts. :mblush:
I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Hi Shawn,
If I may interject... it is a strange idea to say that some would reject God when confronted with the full weight of His love and power in their face. Again think Saul/Paul - that is the model for every conversion.
Does God force people to repent? The word force is interesting. Love is a force. Does my wife force me to love her? Well her beauty, kindness, and good cooking sure is a force to deal with!
I'm not sure what you mean when you say those who endured pain in this life would be forced to endure pain in the next life... again that is not what UR proposes.
IMHO I see it like this. God will show each one of us exactly what we need in order to willingly repent so we will learn godly character and come to Him. Should be an easy job since He designed us and knows our innermost thoughts.
Again I say: UR is not "torture Him until He loves God". That is some strange hybrid ET beliefs that perhaps you are still stuck with (or not). God is not in the business of torturing people.
Do we not suffer here while on earth? And UR proposes that nonbelievers will also suffer by the "fire" in the afterlife at least for a season...purification. If the glory of God up close and personal brings about repentence...why the need for Gehenna?
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:39:16 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 05:20:06 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2010, 02:13:18 AM
I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"? (Or maybe not. :mshrug:)
Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that. I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later. Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.
If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:
Speaking of which :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts. :mblush:
I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Thanks for the chance to reason through some things Shawn. Let me share how I look at this piece you've brought up. God made all, the just and the unjust. Vessels of honor and dishonor. He creates good and evil ("I the Lord do all these things".) He says when he judges, it brings righteousness. Also, that the end of the Lord is merciful. It's not the best terminology, but I'll say it like this. I see it as "God created all (turned all to disobedience/futility...) and He'll "fix" it all (...so that He may have mercy on ALL). So as far as forced to do so, because the above sentence (scripture) is His plan. HOWEVER, I actually never say God forces someone...I say He creates the conditions necessary for repentance - bringing us to the end of ourselves, which leaves a view of Him.
Which brings me to this; As I've shared in so many words with my agnostic brother - "Bill, I believe you will believe. When you're standing in the direct presence of the most beautiful, awesome Being you could ever behold, and you realize what you've missed - it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out to SomeOne Who is pure love, beauty, and has everything you could ever possibly need or want - and you finally realize it?"
God is Love.
I have debated the UR side on this issue when I was feeling a bit froggy. :bigGrin: I stated that the Bible is merely telling us the end of the story. He forces no one into salvation. He just knows the ending. And like you said, anyone presented with the true beauty and magnificance of the Lord will repent...even the most hardened of hearts.
With that said, where is the purgatory like Gehenna in all of that? I don't see it. If we stand before God and marvel, confess and worship (every knee shall bow...) then why the need for the lake of fire?
You said one time we were both searching. Agreed. That's one I've searched on, and for right now, am at this point; I personally see the Lake of Fire as "standing in the direct presence of God" (our God is a Consuming Fire) - which NO ONE has ever done in this lifetime - we could not have that experience and live to tell about it.
That's where this line from my above post comes in - "it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out". I believe there's spiritual, figurative language involved. He may use literal fire in some instance(s) for some purpose, on
things. Father forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe in the next age that an all sovereign God has to have literal fire to deal with spiritual matters.
Quote from: legoman on August 14, 2010, 05:10:24 AM
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 02:27:44 AM
Hello legoman there is some indication in the bible that the lake of fire could be some kind of fire.
The fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us, but changes us to his glory as we submit to him. But the lake of fire is something where people are thrown into by Gods anger/displease.
"the fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us" - disagree here. While I guess it depends what you mean by "hurt" - we go through trials by fire every day of our life. And they certainly do "hurt" us in the sense that they change us and refine us. Watch a loved one suffer through cancer for 10 years - it hurts, and it teaches you compassion, caring, patience, and understanding.
Quote
I agree with you in that sense, that we have trials, tribulations etc. However you made a classic mistake to think that God gives cancer or sickness to a person to help us grow godly character. Sickness is an enemy and God came to give us health. However you probably didn't mean that I don't know, but I agree that we go through fiery trials as christians to grow and change which are painful. However these trials are brought by living the game of life, but what sense of living do those have in the lake of fire?
Perhaps there will be some kind of spiritual school in heaven, but the trouble is now we are going into unscriptural territory, for the verses say that the devil are cast in, the beast are cast in and they become tormented in that flame. I do wonder why the devil is tormented, and I will need to look at translations to find out the original language.
Burning unbelievers in physical fire is useless and purposeless. But putting them through a spiritual lake of fire that is designed to teach them godly character - character traits like patience, kindness, love - that is a great thing.
I disagree, I think it gets rid of them as being unfit for life, that God made the universe to be for light and not for darkness, so anyone who is of darkness such as the devil and the beast (the antichrist} they are cast into the fire to be disposed of. Whos gonna complain that the devil is defeated?
Who will miss the antichrist?
Is the antichrist going to complain? How can he, hes not God and not in charge and he won't be in misery when hes destroyed, so where's the evil.
Where's willieH when you need him - he firmly believes we are all in the lake of fire right now. I'm undecided, but certainly we go through fire in this life and the lake of fire will provide the same effects.
I don't think he'd be of much help, we are talking about the book of revelation and willie doesn't take that book seriously. I also belive we are going through a fire right now, but that fire is a fire of baptism. Jesus said I came to send fire upon the earth, what if I be kindled. But the lake of fire at the great white throne happens after the first earth and heaven pass away and there is no more room for them.
Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall never pass.
I don't see why Jesus cannot save all of man without throwing them into the lake of fire, the scripture is conclusive that the antichrist will be thrown in and the false prophet and the devil, but what is the false prophet, im not even sure if the false prophet is a man, it could be a nation, or some kind of robot, system.
This might be of interest, my first introduction to UR was this great booklet I read and it one of the best books I have ever read, in that book it had this idea.
Jesus said at his last prayer none of them is lost except the son of perdition, this is so that scriptures might be fullfiled.
Now in scriptural context he was talking about his disciples, but what if he meant all mankind, except that one man the son of perdition. Now the scriptures do say that one of the name of the antichrist is the son of perdition.
That's what this booklet taught and it does make some sense. Something to ponder on.
What's the book? Sounds interesting.
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 03:51:57 AMWhy didn't God simply say I will wash you with soap
He did :laughing7:
KJVMal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 03:51:57 AM
I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.
IMO pastors are not spiritual clean. They are bound by doctrine. Imagine what happens to teh job of a protestant preacher that suddenly starts preaching Catholic things.
I think the truth was availble to all who spoke Greek. But then during translation things got lost. Doctrines of pagan origin poluted things even more. And today it's even blasphemy to consider Father could be that lake. And because that fear of investigation the truth fades away.
2303 qei/on theion {thi'-on}
Meaning: 1) brimstone 1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Origin: probably of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); TDNT - 3:122,*; n n
Usage: AV - brimstone 7; 7
KJVRev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and THEION: which is the second death.
...he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb... - Revelation 14:10 (YLT)
Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, BASANIZO (torment): "to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"
As the primary meaning of noun, THEION (brimstone), Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"
Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms this and states that THEION was "anciently regarded as divine incense to purify and prevent contagion."
E.W. Bullinger defined THEION as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "THEIA," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "THEION.")
This definition is corraborated by the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon which defines the verb THEIOO thus:
"to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god"
This makes sense considering that THEION is the neuter singular of the adjective THEIOS, which means "divine." THEIOS is, of course, derived from THEOS, the word for 'God' or 'gods'.
When we add to this mix the image of fire, aren't we reminded of the common attestation to God as a purifying fire?
It seems evident, then, that to be "tormented with fire and brimstone" is to be tried and purified by Divine Fire.
FIRE is the heat and light that you feel and see when something burns. It takes heat to start a fire, but once the fire is started it produces heat that keeps the process going. Thus, fire is really HEAT and LIGHT. In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.
From THIS article (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html)
QuoteBut the ed view has scriptural and natural backing based on the old testament.
And still Jews are not ETs. Most are URs. There are a few EDs that believe only the very very very wicked (tiny percentage) gets killed. Just saying not all agree with ED in OT.
QuoteI think the best support for the lake of fire being a spiritual fire are the scriptures that say he's like a refiners fire etc
Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
1 Chronicles 21:26 And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
1 Corinthians 3:13 .... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Ezekiel 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, .... saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about ....
Genesis 15:17 .... behold a smoking furnace (God), and a burning lamp (God) that passed between those pieces (cut up sacrificial animals).
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire
Isaiah 4:4 .... and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isaiah 4:5 .... a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
Luke 3:16 .... he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Þ Baptism is a positive act.
Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mark 9:49-50 or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Matthew 3:11 .... whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried (=tested) with fire ....
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Psalm 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his (God) nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psalm 66:10-12 .... thou hast tried us, as silver is tried (=tested) .... we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.
Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him (=love); if he thirst, give him drink (=love): for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire (=love) on his head.
Quotebut I'm not sure how it can tie up with what I said about God being seperate from the lake of fire.
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AMI see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Good points I agree with. They most certainly would be true for submitting to earthly rulers. But what if you just change your mind because of something I can't explain/know.
Not promoting NDEs here but I just use a returning 'event' from them to give a possible way how that converstion happens.
People go to a certain place. They feel fine. The feel at peace. Then the meet a "very bright light" (like Saul???)
At that point they get complely soaked with feelings of peace and rest. Are those people be forced to be happy?
Happy is black or white. Either you are happy or not. You can fake happiness but that's not truely happy.
Lets assume God cheated and used some magic so the person started to feel happy completly against his or her will.
Is the person happy or not....? :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2010, 07:19:57 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 05:05:55 AMI see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out. So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved? Why should they be forced to do so? Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after? It's one of the main issues I have with UR. It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord. But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.
Good points I agree with. They most certainly would be true for submitting to earthly rulers. But what if you just change your mind because of something I can't explain/know.
Not promoting NDEs here but I just use a returning 'event' from them to give a possible way how that converstion happens.
People go to a certain place. They feel fine. The feel at peace. Then the meet a "very bright light" (like Saul???)
At that point they get complely soaked with feelings of peace and rest. Are those people be forced to be happy?
Happy is black or white. Either you are happy or not. You can fake happiness but that's not truely happy.
Lets assume God cheated and used some magic so the person started to feel happy completly against his or her will.
Is the person happy or not....? :dontknow:
I really can go either way on this debate as I can debate both sides equally well. I would be more able to believe that being in the presence of a holy and all power God would break through the most steely cold of hearts. Some of us were able to find repentance while here on earth because Jesus opened our eyes and we seen him in his splendor. But, for those who he chose to harden this enlightenment will come after death when they are in his presence. And then every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord. Torturing those who he chose to harden for eternity makes no sense. Gehenna makes little sense to me as well as I feel being in the presence of God would instantanously burn out all impurities.
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 10:24:43 PM
for those who he chose to harden this enlightenment will come after death when they are in his presence. And then every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord. Torturing those who he chose to harden for eternity makes no sense.
While there clearly are occasions where God hardened hearts, I don't think it is always His doing or His will for hearts to be hardened. If it were, why all of the passages that caution us
not to harden our hearts?
1 Samuel 6:6
Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did?
Psalm 95:8
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah
Mark 8:17
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?
Hebrews 3:8
do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert,
Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
Hebrews 4:7
Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
There are passages that tell us that God turns us over to the things we pursue, such as Romans 1:18-32.
You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God." I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away. God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.
Quote from: LS
You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God." I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away. God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.
That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him, then all will be in all. How do you understand this verse?
(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}
CHB
Quote from: LS on August 14, 2010, 11:29:54 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 14, 2010, 10:24:43 PM
for those who he chose to harden this enlightenment will come after death when they are in his presence. And then every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord. Torturing those who he chose to harden for eternity makes no sense.
While there clearly are occasions where God hardened hearts, I don't think it is always His doing or His will for hearts to be hardened. If it were, why all of the passages that caution us not to harden our hearts?
1 Samuel 6:6
Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did?
Psalm 95:8
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah
Mark 8:17
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?
Hebrews 3:8
do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert,
Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
Hebrews 4:7
Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
There are passages that tell us that God turns us over to the things we pursue, such as Romans 1:18-32.
You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God." I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away. God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.
I believe it's possible for a believer to harden their own heart and ignore what they know. But, a nonbeliever can't even know they need God without his hand to open their eyes. Therefore, if God chooses not to open their eyes then he has at the very least allowed their hearts to stay hard. This is a condition which we are born into.
Quote from: CHB on August 15, 2010, 02:07:27 AM
Quote from: LS
You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God." I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away. God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.
That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him, then all will be in all. How do you understand this verse?
(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}
CHB
I can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture. If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire. Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth. I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.
Quote from: CHB on August 15, 2010, 02:07:27 AM
That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him
If that is true then why these?
Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!" ?
As silly as that sounds, it is an honest question. The way those passages makes sense to me, is if the one was in danger of not being saved.
Hey, I just want to thank you all for listening to my thoughts and for challenging me and being so kind even in disagreement. I hope we challenged each other in good ways. Shawn, WhiteWings, jabcat and thinktank especially took time to converse with me and I enjoyed that. I'll continue reading here, but I really do appreciate that you all share a more common belief and this place is a safe haven for ya'll and I wish you nothing but peace and joy in our LORD.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: LS on August 15, 2010, 03:40:27 AM
Quote from: CHB on August 15, 2010, 02:07:27 AM
That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him
If that is true then why these?
Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!" ?
As silly as that sounds, it is an honest question. The way those passages makes sense to me, is if the one was in danger of not being saved.
Hey, I just want to thank you all for listening to my thoughts and for challenging me and being so kind even in disagreement. I hope we challenged each other in good ways. Shawn, WhiteWings, jabcat and thinktank especially took time to converse with me and I enjoyed that. I'll continue reading here, but I really do appreciate that you all share a more common belief and this place is a safe haven for ya'll and I wish you nothing but peace and joy in our LORD.
:HeartThrob:
Is it possible they rejoice not because they would have been destroyed but for some other reason? We know there is still judgement...for the believer and nonbeliever alike. Is the rejoicing possibly over an issue relating to judgement yet not be destruction?
Quote from: shawn on August 15, 2010, 03:23:54 AM(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}
Shawn I understand what you wrote isn't your view. So this message are just thoughts concerning the various views.
QuoteI can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture. If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire. Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth. I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.
That's a way of look at it I guess. Bit weird that all verses took place in either heaven or earth. But this one verse suddenly is taking place somewhere else in the universe. I've read views that LoF is in the core of the sun.
I've also seen the view that LoF is in the center of the earth. The verse states
on the earth so that excludes LoF because that is in the earth.
Then I ask myself: What about the saints that a buried
in the earth
The weird thing is that lot's of ETs hold KJV as the measuring stick for all translations. KJV and other translations include "under the earth"....
BTW for me under the earth = in the earth
The original Greek also has in/under the earth. From Strong:
5270 u`poka,tw hupokato {hoop-ok-at'-o}
Meaning: 1) under, underneath
Below the verse in all Bibles I have in electronic format. No picking and chosing done to endorse any view.
ASV Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.
BBE Revelation 5:13 And to my ears came the voice of everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and of all things which are in them, saying, To him who is seated on the high seat, and to the Lamb, may blessing and honour and glory and power be given for ever and ever.
CJB Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea- yes, everything in them- saying, "To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb belong praise, honor, glory and power forever and ever!"
CSB Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say: Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to the One seated on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!
ERV Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.
ESV Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
GWN Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea. Every creature in those places was singing, "To the one who sits on the throne and to the lamb be praise, honor, glory, and power forever and ever."
KJG Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
KJV Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
NAB Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."
NAS Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
NAU Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
NET Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature– in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them– singing: "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!"
NIB Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
NIV Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
NJB Revelation 5:13 Then I heard all the living things in creation -- everything that lives in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, crying: To the One seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be all praise, honour, glory and power, for ever and ever.
NKJ Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
NLT Revelation 5:13 And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: "Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever."
NRS Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
RSV Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"
RWB Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.
WEB Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, {be} to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.
YLT Revelation 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'
Quote from: LS on August 15, 2010, 03:40:27 AMIf it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!"?
People even rejoice winter has ended and spring set in. But why? It was certain spring would return.
Why did you rejoce at the resurrection of Jesus? Wasn't it a 100% certainty?
KJVRev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
==> Did those people doubt prophesy and feared the marriage never would take place?
KJV1Co 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJVAct 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
For incorruptible people ED simply can't be true because incorruptible things can't be destroyed. The question is: Is this verse only about the brethren?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/Charles_Russell/
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2010, 07:53:12 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 15, 2010, 03:23:54 AM(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}
Shawn I understand what you wrote isn't your view. So this message are just thoughts concerning the various views.
QuoteI can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture. If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire. Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth. I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.
That's a way of look at it I guess. Bit weird that all verses took place in either heaven or earth. But this one verse suddenly is taking place somewhere else in the universe. I've read views that LoF is in the core of the sun.
I've also seen the view that LoF is in the center of the earth. The verse states on the earth so that excludes LoF because that is in the earth.
Then I ask myself: What about the saints that a buried in the earth
The weird thing is that lot's of ETs hold KJV as the measuring stick for all translations. KJV and other translations include "under the earth"....
BTW for me under the earth = in the earth
The original Greek also has in/under the earth. From Strong:
5270 u`poka,tw hupokato {hoop-ok-at'-o}
Meaning: 1) under, underneath
Below the verse in all Bibles I have in electronic format. No picking and chosing done to endorse any view.
ASV Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.
BBE Revelation 5:13 And to my ears came the voice of everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and of all things which are in them, saying, To him who is seated on the high seat, and to the Lamb, may blessing and honour and glory and power be given for ever and ever.
CJB Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea- yes, everything in them- saying, "To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb belong praise, honor, glory and power forever and ever!"
CSB Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say: Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to the One seated on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!
ERV Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.
ESV Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
GWN Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea. Every creature in those places was singing, "To the one who sits on the throne and to the lamb be praise, honor, glory, and power forever and ever."
KJG Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
KJV Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
NAB Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."
NAS Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
NAU Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
NET Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature– in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them– singing: "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!"
NIB Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
NIV Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
NJB Revelation 5:13 Then I heard all the living things in creation -- everything that lives in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, crying: To the One seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be all praise, honour, glory and power, for ever and ever.
NKJ Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
NLT Revelation 5:13 And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: "Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever."
NRS Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
RSV Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"
RWB Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.
WEB Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, {be} to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.
YLT Revelation 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'
I have a feeling anything heavenly and possibly Gehenna like doesn't occur in our 4D universe. I believe timelessness exists in another brane outside of our observable world.
Nothing more fun than combining sciencific theory and Bible. :happygrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 14, 2010, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: thinktank on August 14, 2010, 03:51:57 AM
I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.
IMO pastors are not spiritual clean. They are bound by doctrine. Imagine what happens to teh job of a protestant preacher that suddenly starts preaching Catholic things.
I think the truth was availble to all who spoke Greek. But then during translation things got lost. Doctrines of pagan origin poluted things even more. And today it's even blasphemy to consider Father could be that lake. And because that fear of investigation the truth fades away.
Quote
I think you are right on the money. I have a pastor friend phd in Old Testament. Sharp guy. But, try to pin him down on free will or eternal torture and he grows very uncomfortable and becomes very careful with his language. He believes in "eternal punishment" but I believe that is in the form of ED not ET. But, he is a southern baptist preacher and no way will he come out and say that. I believe these pastors are put in a spot if they do investigate. Once they realize the truth how do they deal with it? Do they give up their calling?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 15, 2010, 08:10:54 AM
Quote from: LS on August 15, 2010, 03:40:27 AMIf it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!"?
People even rejoice winter has ended and spring set in. But why? It was certain spring would return.
Why did you rejoce at the resurrection of Jesus? Wasn't it a 100% certainty?
KJVRev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
==> Did those people doubt prophesy and feared the marriage never would take place?
Good response. I think it's possible to rejoice over a soul who finds Christ not because they would have been destroyed but because they found Christ.
Quote from: shawn on August 15, 2010, 04:46:56 PM
I think you are right on the money. I have a pastor friend phd in Old Testament. Sharp guy. But, try to pin him down on free will or eternal torture and he grows very uncomfortable and becomes very careful with his language. He believes in "eternal punishment"
There is a difference between:
Eternal punishment => ED
and
Eternal punishing => ET
Quotebut I believe that is in the form of ED not ET. But, he is a southern baptist preacher and no way will he come out and say that. I believe these pastors are put in a spot if they do investigate. Once they realize the truth how do they deal with it? Do they give up their calling?
I think most just chose their sermon topics differently.
Looking at it from a human point of view [for we are made in his image]--
If people come on this board and make a lot of trouble, what do the mods do?
warnings, warnings, warnings, and--
a)eternal torment
b)eternal destruction
c)aionian banishment
Aren't mods like God? :happygrin:
Why would God do differently?
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22
Blessings.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
The Lake of Fire is involved, serving its purpose (21:8)
Rev. 21
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
Rev. 22
2in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come " And let the one who hears say, "Come " And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2010, 06:07:42 PMAren't mods like God? :happygrin:
There is a God of creation. A god of the world. So perhaps.... gods of the cyberworld :laughing7:
Quote...and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
That's us. :Sparkletooth:
Quoteits gates will never be closed;
But this doesn't mean that everyone can enter. In fact, it only specifically mentions the kings of the earth entering.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. "without"G1854
εξω
exōex'-o
Adverb from G1537;
out (side, of doors), literally or figuratively: - away, forth, (with-) out (of, -ward), strange.
This is very similar to what happened to Cain. He is sent out of the presence of God.
a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. --Gen 4
27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie:
--Rev 21
Clarification from my understanding; the kings bring their treasures into it. I believe that's one reason the ecclesia are saved now - to participate in bringing the rest in - God's work of the ages.
Following up my previous post;
If God punishes most of humanity forever, He is sovereign and His will be done. If He wipes most of it out forever, again, He is sovereign and His will be done - and we need to bow before Him. However, for some reason not of my own merit, I believe he's allowed me to see that He will do everything He says in the scriptures, including punishing and destroying absolutely everything that's not of God - but that His Plan is to ultimately redeem and reconcile His whole creation - even though much of it will be as through fire.
The Lake of Fire is right in the middle of the occurrences in the verses quoted above. A key then seems to be, what is the ultimate purpose of the Lake of Fire? To torture, to completely annihilate, or to renew? In my mind though, there are many other things to take into account - like hundreds of verses that must reconcile.
So, is God's Plan "I have created all this" to torture most of it [redeem a little], completely annihilate most of it [redeem a little], or redeem and reconcile all of it.
He will help us all know in His timing, whether the end of the Lord is retribution, annihilation, or restoration/full of mercy.
Since you have kept My Word with the endurance that I give you.. Rev. 3:10
We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful. Js. 5:11
Even though most will take the broad road to destruction [of all that cannot enter in] I believe through Jesus, God brings life - not just for the select few - but that He will reconcile His creation and be, not all in some, but All in All as the scriptures proclaim.
Blessings and love to the saints, and praise and glory be to Him alone Who is worthy.
Quote from: shawn on August 15, 2010, 03:23:54 AM
Quote from: CHB on August 15, 2010, 02:07:27 AM
Quote from: LS
You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God." I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away. God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.
That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him, then all will be in all. How do you understand this verse?
(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}
CHB
I can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture. If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire. Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth. I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.
Where do you think the lake of fire is located? Maybe there isn't any forever torturing or destruction that is why it isn't mentioned?
CHB
Quote from: LS on August 15, 2010, 03:40:27 AM
Quote from: CHB on August 15, 2010, 02:07:27 AM
That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him
If that is true then why these?
Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!" ?
As silly as that sounds, it is an honest question. The way those passages makes sense to me, is if the one was in danger of not being saved.
Hey, I just want to thank you all for listening to my thoughts and for challenging me and being so kind even in disagreement. I hope we challenged each other in good ways. Shawn, WhiteWings, jabcat and thinktank especially took time to converse with me and I enjoyed that. I'll continue reading here, but I really do appreciate that you all share a more common belief and this place is a safe haven for ya'll and I wish you nothing but peace and joy in our LORD.
:HeartThrob:
First thing I try to remember when reading Jesus words is, while Jesus was alive there was no Savior as yet. It was after Jesus was crucified that sins were forgiven.
CHB
Brother thinktank, you questioned the place of smoke...I remembered some of Brother Eby's thoughts on this; hope it's meaningful.
Jabcat
I think I made a mistake, I was convinced that the devil passage contianed refererences to smoke, but I can't find it. The smoke reference was earlier in the book and that's talking about the plagues of revelation, which is a different event to the lake of fire.
I don't belive this down below but something I looked at.
If we have a seperate spirit being and are thrown into some kind of spiritual fire then there's some kind of torment happening, because it says the devil is tormented, the demons who speak to Jesus said, "art thou come to torment us before our time"
The letters to the churches say he that overcome will not be hurt by the second death. So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now.
That's what bothers me about the lake of fire is theres not much info about it, but just got to trust God.
Quote from: thinktank on August 16, 2010, 07:42:18 PM
Brother thinktank, you questioned the place of smoke...I remembered some of Brother Eby's thoughts on this; hope it's meaningful.
Jabcat
I think I made a mistake, I was convinced that the devil passage contianed refererences to smoke, but I can't find it. The smoke reference was earlier in the book and that's talking about the plagues of revelation, which is a different event to the lake of fire.
I don't belive this down below but something I looked at.
If we have a seperate spirit being and are thrown into some kind of spiritual fire then there's some kind of torment happening, because it says the devil is tormented, the demons who speak to Jesus said, "art thou come to torment us before our time"
The letters to the churches say he that overcome will not be hurt by the second death. So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now.
That's what bothers me about the lake of fire is theres not much info about it, but just got to trust God.
Rev 14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction. Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing? For me, this is counterintuitive. While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.
Quote from: thinktank on August 16, 2010, 07:42:18 PMIf we have a seperate spirit being and are thrown into some kind of spiritual fire then there's some kind of torment happening, because it says the devil is tormented, the demons who speak to Jesus said, "art thou come to torment us before our time"
The letters to the churches say he that overcome will not be hurt by the second death. So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now.
That's what bothers me about the lake of fire is theres not much info about it, but just got to trust God.
The Strong defenion of "hurt" is weird.
91 avdike,w adikeo {ad-ee-keh'-o}
Meaning: 1) absolutely 1a) to act unjustly or wickedly, to sin, 1b) to be a criminal, to have violated the laws in some way 1c) to do wrong 1d) to do hurt 2) transitively 2a) to do some wrong or sin in some respect 2b) to wrong some one, act wickedly towards him 2c) to hurt, damage, harm
5686 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Subjunctive (See 5792) Count - 219
Whatever happens in LoF is not pleasant.
Death is only about the death of the body:
2288 qa,natoj thanatos {than'-at-os}
Meaning: 1) the death of the body 1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended 1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell 1b1) the power of death 1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin 2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name, 2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell 3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell 4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 06:02:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 13, 2010, 05:59:58 PM
Quote from: LS on August 13, 2010, 05:20:33 PMI hear you! I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's.
Problem solved for free: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
It's all a matter of taste. All are fine. e-sword has the most resources (AFAIK)
I greatly prefer programs but many on this forum use sites like Blue letter Bible.
If you can't choose try e-Sword or The Word
While they have great overlap in functionality they are also complementary (sp?)
Personally I use www.bibleworks.com
Just choose one and if you have problems... ask.
I mean, I wish I had some of those for the deuterocanonical books like Sirach, Wisdom, Macabees.
I have eSword and I use it all the time - I have the NAB module but it doesn't have a Strong's type translator associated with it; it's just the text.
Your link is AWESOME and I'll be poking around there too!
You need the KJV+ for Strong links.
Even better is KJV+TVM => Tense Mood Voice
KVJA includes Apocryptica.
I can upload all my v9 modules (363 MByte)
http://www.thelostbooks.com/
Quote from: shawn on August 16, 2010, 08:42:15 PM
Quote thinktank - "So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now."
------
Rev 14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction. Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing? For me, this is counterintuitive. While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.
Good points/questions. I can only share from the best I understand at this time.
I tend to believe we all die a second death. We're born into this life, first death. We die to self, a process of "old things passing away, all things becoming new" [lit. trans.] begins - the second death. Some now, the rest later, taking the broad road to destruction. The ecclesia in this lifetime are not hurt of the second death, and are part of the first resurrection. The rest, are "hurt" by the second death, and are part of the second resurrection. The ecclesia are used to "help" bring the rest in, as in "the kings of the nations bring their treasures into" the New Jerusalem.
I'll know more later. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 16, 2010, 08:42:15 PM
Quote thinktank - "So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now."
------
Rev 14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction. Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing? For me, this is counterintuitive. While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.
Good points/questions. I can only share from the best I understand at this time.
I tend to believe we all die a second death. We're born into this life, first death. We die to self, a process of "old things passing away, all things becoming new" [lit. trans.] begins - the second death. Some now, the rest later, taking the broad road to destruction. The ecclesia in this lifetime are not hurt of the second death, and are part of the first resurrection. The rest, are "hurt" by the second death, and are part of the second resurrection. The ecclesia are used to "help" bring the rest in, as in "the kings of the nations bring their treasures into" the New Jerusalem.
I'll know more later. :bigGrin:
That sounds great. I really hope you are right on.
Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 16, 2010, 08:42:15 PM
Quote thinktank - "So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now."
------
Rev 14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction. Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing? For me, this is counterintuitive. While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.
Good points/questions. I can only share from the best I understand at this time.
I tend to believe we all die a second death. We're born into this life, first death. We die to self, a process of "old things passing away, all things becoming new" [lit. trans.] begins - the second death. Some now, the rest later, taking the broad road to destruction. The ecclesia in this lifetime are not hurt of the second death, and are part of the first resurrection. The rest, are "hurt" by the second death, and are part of the second resurrection. The ecclesia are used to "help" bring the rest in, as in "the kings of the nations bring their treasures into" the New Jerusalem.
I'll know more later. :bigGrin:
jabcat,
This is the way I understand this as well.
CHB
Good, thanks for the witness, C.
This question/issue prompted me to do some looking about people leaving the Lake of Fire. (I believe it's spiritual).
Anyway, first of all, I saw a Q&A website, and actually saw this quote -
3. Norm Geisler said, "Hell is the most glorious of all Christian doctrines, because it proves that man is truly free." What do you think he meant by that? Do you agree?
[Answer] Completely. (editorial comment - :thumbdown:)
Well, on to things that are honest, pure, and of a good report (think on these things). From http://www.godsplanforall.com/lakeoffire1
This excerpt was taken;
Please note that the nations are saved and walk in the light of the Holy City. Who are these nations? These nations are none other than those who have undergone the Second Death through the Lake of Fire judgement. The gates of the Holy City are never closed, which means that the offer of salvation remains open. The kings of the earth bring their glory into the Holy City, New Jerusalem, as they become birthed in the Bride, the Lamb's Wife. The only way the kings of the earth can bring their glory into the Holy City is for them to become Righteous with God's Righteousness through repentance and God given faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to glorify God the Father.
This is a wonderful and glorious picture of a continuous flow of people ascending from the Lake of Fire to enter through the gates of the Holy City to be born into the Bride of Christ, the Lamb's Wife, as they repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They leave behind them the Lake of Fire where the wicked are still being judged until they too come to repentance and enter the gates of Righteousness to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
Along with your sentiments Shawn, God let it be true, amen.
Just curious Jab was that one authors opinion or does that have scriptural support?
I'd need to look more closely at the rest of what he's written about it. Without scouring his info any more than I have at this point, and without any further direct evidence of where he gets his thoughts, my guesstimates on his thoughts would be;
based on all the many scriptures that do talk of ultimate reconciliation, that this particular piece is then his interpretation of those relevant Revelation passages -
attempting to reconcile all the specific UR verses with how Rev. describes a) the New Jerusalem b) the gates of the city open "day and night" c) kings (we/the ecclesia are kings) entering and bringing their treasures into it, etc.
I'll look more at his writings. When I found this, I was specifically looking for info/solid interpretation about "leaving the Lake of Fire".
Quote from: jabcat on August 17, 2010, 02:23:18 AM
This question/issue prompted me to do some looking about people leaving the Lake of Fire. (I believe it's spiritual).
Got me digging, Shawn :bigGrin:. I found this statement from Harold Lovelace that goes with the above;
"Did you know that the terms "Holy Ghost and fire," "God is a consuming fire,"
and "lake of fire" all speak of the same type of fire? Did you know that the fire in
each one of these statements all comes from the same Greek word?"
It's always good to do our research. :) I have done more research than I have done for quite awhile since coming onto these boards. Iron sharpening iron...love that statement. :thumbsup:
Is it not true that Eternal Destruction is also known as Annihilation?
If so, is it not true, that annihilation is the severest form of death? Being the complete obliteration of presence, the death of an individual's existence itself? If so, would death not perpetually be the enemy against God's plan, for those destroyed would be perpetually remembered by God as "finally-infinitely-utterly-forever-dead"?
What then of Christ, who will/has defeat/ed Death? Christ is life, death is the absence of life. Where Christ dwells, life dwells, where life dwells, death - the absence of life, is filled, and ceases to be death, absence; but becomes rather, life, and fullness of it. We should remember, that death did not come about as a creation of God, death came about when man became absent of life; dying you shall die; being cut off from the source of Life; God. To once have existed, and to now be bereft of existence; annihilated, is to once have had existence, life, but to now be perpetually absent both as an existent being, and to be perpetually a part of the obliterated dead. To be absent of life, is to be dead, to be absent of existence, when once you where, is to be absent of life.
QuoteLamentations 3:31-33 (New International Version)
31 For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to the children of men.
Would annihilation be in conflict with this verse? For he would cast them off from existence forever, if Eternal Destruction are the means by which his justice is fulfilled. Likewise, failure to endure all things, which is an affront to his unfailing love, when his love endures throughout the remedial ends, unto the glorification of Himself when he can say "Haha! I am not mocked".
Good points. Amen. That was my thought too, that ED means death has not truly been destroyed/overcome as Jesus says. I agree with what you're saying. If most (broad road) are eternally dead, exactly how does that make Jesus the complete Victor, with ALL things headed up in Him, summed up, then handed to the Father - Who is then All in All?
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd...and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. Jn. 10
Halleluja! Worthy is the Lamb!
Quote from: Lefein on August 19, 2010, 04:08:48 AM
Is it not true that Eternal Destruction is also known as Annihilation?
If so, is it not true, that annihilation is the severest form of death? Being the complete obliteration of presence, the death of an individual's existence itself? If so, would death not perpetually be the enemy against God's plan, for those destroyed would be perpetually remembered by God as "finally-infinitely-utterly-forever-dead"?
What then of Christ, who will/has defeat/ed Death? Christ is life, death is the absence of life. Where Christ dwells, life dwells, where life dwells, death - the absence of life, is filled, and ceases to be death, absence; but becomes rather, life, and fullness of it. We should remember, that death did not come about as a creation of God, death came about when man became absent of life; dying you shall die; being cut off from the source of Life; God. To once have existed, and to now be bereft of existence; annihilated, is to once have had existence, life, but to now be perpetually absent both as an existent being, and to be perpetually a part of the obliterated dead. To be absent of life, is to be dead, to be absent of existence, when once you where, is to be absent of life.
QuoteLamentations 3:31-33 (New International Version)
31 For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to the children of men.
Would annihilation be in conflict with this verse? For he would cast them off from existence forever, if Eternal Destruction are the means by which his justice is fulfilled. Likewise, failure to endure all things, which is an affront to his unfailing love, when his love endures throughout the remedial ends, unto the glorification of Himself when he can say "Haha! I am not mocked".
I think these are some very good points. But, I would not consider annihilation anywhere close to the severest form of death. To be consciously out of God's presence for eternity whether that be in burning flames or in a dark abyss filled with the fullness of sin is the worst thing I can possibly think of. And I see quite a few verses that support UR. UR is not without support or I wouldn't be here trying to learn. With that said, I'm not sure philosophical reasoning is the best way to approach our questions. We inherently start from an errant metanarrative engulfed in ignorance and a fallen nature. To believe, we can reason our way into God's mysteries is short sighted at best. Even though we debate, and struggle together I am fully convinced I will never understand God's judgement until the Holy Spirit reveals it to me. I lean not on my own understanding but that doesn't keep me from study. I do try to reason but that doesn't keep me from prayer. It's very obvious to me that if God wanted us all to know the methods of his judgement they would be clear. I believe he has given some of the answers to only a select group of people. I'm really hoping it's this group. Until he lets me know...I will continue to study and pray.
Prayer and Study is indeed the foundation. But one last thought that comes to heart, if only to ponder it: Remember the Sadducees.
They didn't believe in a resurrection, their theology was that once a person died, they ceased to exist. Annihilation is at the end of its run, the same in principle. The only difference is that there is the added step of resurrection, before destruction; the cessation of life - existence.
Jesus said to the Sadducees;
QuoteMat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
QuoteMark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
QuoteLuke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
You guys are on a roll.
:Sparkletooth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgAZ2unZIg
Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2010, 07:22:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgAZ2unZIg
Just a
few chills. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on August 19, 2010, 04:48:43 AM
Good points. Amen. That was my thought too, that ED means death has not truly been destroyed/overcome as Jesus says. I agree with what you're saying. If most (broad road) are eternally dead, exactly how does that make Jesus the complete Victor, with ALL things headed up in Him, summed up, then handed to the Father - Who is then All in All?
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd...and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. Jn. 10
Halleluja! Worthy is the Lamb!
From the ET/ED p.o.v. all/kingdom = elect. If not Jesus is the worst shepherd in whole history. A shepherd that saves 1 sheep and let 99 perish.
Not even free will changes that because in that case it means Jesus was far less convincing than satan.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2010, 08:57:53 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 19, 2010, 04:48:43 AM
Good points. Amen. That was my thought too, that ED means death has not truly been destroyed/overcome as Jesus says. I agree with what you're saying. If most (broad road) are eternally dead, exactly how does that make Jesus the complete Victor, with ALL things headed up in Him, summed up, then handed to the Father - Who is then All in All?
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd...and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. Jn. 10
Halleluja! Worthy is the Lamb!
From the ET/ED p.o.v. all/kingdom = elect. If not Jesus is the worst shepherd in whole history. A shepherd that saves 1 sheep and let 99 perish.
Not even free will changes that because in that case it means Jesus was far less convincing than satan.
A couple excellent points.
Good, thanks Shawn.
WW, :bigGrin: And He said "I am the GOOD Shephard".
GOOD to His own flock surrounded by the 19x bigger flock of satan. :sigh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2010, 09:43:50 AM
GOOD to His own flock surrounded by the 19x bigger flock of satan. :sigh:
It certainly seems to be that way in this age. We're outnumbered, Bro, but-
1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
That's not how I see it. The Good Shepherd isn't really searching yet.
But that's not not what I meant.
If ET/ED is true then:
a- 100% of the sheep ever born belong to the Good Shepherd but He's such a failure He looses 95% (Failurism)
or
b- Or Father predestined satans flock 19x bigger than the flock of the Good Shepherd. (Calvinism)
or
c- Or the Shepherd is very lazy and doesn't even attempt to catch the strayed sheep (Armianism)
a- All denominations agree Jesus is perfect in every way. He's not a looser so this option can't be true.
b- Jesus did a good job.
c- Laziness is a sin. So that's not how Jesus would do things.
So the final question. Jesus is:
1] UR Shepherd that brings all sheep in the fold?
2] Calvinist Shepherd that only looks at His own flock?
Quote from: wwSo the final question. Jesus is:
1] UR Shepherd that brings all sheep in the fold?
2] Calvinist Shepherd that only looks at His own flock?
It would have to be 3)all of the above, but in different ages.
In the OT, didn't it look like just the Jews would be saved for a while there?
Revelation 15:3
and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:
"Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.
Ok, let me put it another way--
Calvin was not an idiot. He knew what he was reading was true. [He was one of the first to get the whole text in his hands, which had been hoarded by the church]. And, certainly, a superficial reading of it looks just like Calvin described.
But, I think that as the Jews were to carry the law into the world in their age, the Christians are to carry grace into the world in this age. It doesn't necessarily mean that is the end of the story in either case.
Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2010, 06:19:33 PM
Quote from: wwSo the final question. Jesus is:
1] UR Shepherd that brings all sheep in the fold?
2] Calvinist Shepherd that only looks at His own flock?
It would have to be 3)all of the above, but in different ages.
In the OT, didn't it look like just the Jews would be saved for a while there?
Jews claim all are saved. "Hell" last 12 months max.
So the Jews knew from the OT they would be saved OR they peeked in the NT.....
Quote from: wwJews claim all are saved. "Hell" last 12 months max.
Do you mean that Jews claim all Jews are saved? Do they claim non Jews are all saved, too?
And, where does the 12 months come from? Is that somewhere in the Old Testament? Or is this the Talmud? Are you talkiing about current day Jews or OT Jews?
QuoteDo you mean that Jews claim all Jews are saved?
Yes.
QuoteDo they claim non Jews are all saved, too?
Yes.
QuoteAnd, where does the 12 months come from? Is that somewhere in the Old Testament? Or is this the Talmud?
I never have been to figure out were they found that idea. It's even more detailed by saying that for most it's 3 months max. It's something all Jewish scholars seem to agree on. From orthodox to liberal to Messanic.
QuoteAre you talkiing about current day Jews or OT Jews?
That I don't know. Must be more recent than Jesus because the Saduceans didn't belive i ressurection for all.(?)
Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2010, 06:32:56 PMCalvin was not an idiot. He knew what he was reading was true. [He was one of the first to get the whole text in his hands, which had been hoarded by the church]. And, certainly, a superficial reading of it looks just like Calvin described.
The church would never handed over the text to 'just somebody'. My guess is that Calvin was already sufficiently indocttrinated and parroting church views. Plus remember that at that time
nobody knew the meaning of many Greek words.
QuoteThe church would never handed over the text to 'just somebody'. My guess is that Calvin was already sufficiently indocttrinated and parroting church views. Plus remember that at that time nobody knew the meaning of many Greek words.
Calvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible. I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.
Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.
QuoteI never have been to figure out were they found that idea. It's even more detailed by saying that for most it's 3 months max. It's something all Jewish scholars seem to agree on. From orthodox to liberal to Messanic.
It sounds like a little creative writing to me.
QuoteThat I don't know. Must be more recent than Jesus because the Saduceans didn't belive i ressurection for all.(?)
Do you have any links to this universal salvation belief of the Jews? Or do you just know this from talking to people?
Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved. If anything, Christianity seems to me like it would be more inclusive than Judaism, since anyone can be saved if they accept Christ, rather than needing a particular cultural and ethnic heritage. So this surprises me and is not what I would expect. So I'm wondering if there is any written evidence of this.
Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2010, 12:46:26 PMQuoteI never have been to figure out were they found that idea. It's even more detailed by saying that for most it's 3 months max. It's something all Jewish scholars seem to agree on. From orthodox to liberal to Messanic.
It sounds like a little creative writing to me.
Maybe. Maybe not...
QuoteDo you have any links to this universal salvation belief of the Jews? Or do you just know this from talking to people?
Just from guys who call themselfs Rabbi..... Below some of 'their' answers. They only speak about sinnners and wicked. Not in terms of Jews and none Jews. My guess is that all none Jews are part of the wicked in their view. Many Jewish sites have a "ask the Rabbi" so we could ask.
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell.htm
August 2004
We have also demonstrated from the Tanach
and the Sages that the forgiveness of sin can be
attained with or without the Temple standing, and
without a blood sacrifice.ÊÊ
There is much to be said about the creation and
greatness of repentance. I will only quote a
couple of sources from the Sages of Israel:
"Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the
eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven
things were created before the world was
created, and these are they: The Torah,
repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the
Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the
Messiah".[18]
Ê
"It was taught: R Meir used to say, Great is
repentance, for on account of an individual who
repents, (does not need to die)[19] the sins of all
the world are forgiven, as it is said: I will heal
their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine
anger is turned away from him. 'From them' it is
not said, but 'from him."[20] [21]Ê
December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.
August 2008
Question: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing
this space to address Jewish matters. My
question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which
Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my
understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding
any concept), according to some
biblical references, more specifically, Job and
Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an
underground abyss where all souls -whether good
or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden
(heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all
souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and
wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and
evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is
another topic that has different interpretations. So,
are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the
resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a
physical form), will there be death again?
---
Response: Dear Carolina, These are weighty
and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing
that the concept of a soul entering a "place",
whether under or above ground, is not a part of
Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object
that can travel in space or be situated in a specific
location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul
'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric,
not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the
grave, the final resting place of the physical body.
Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a
metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues
after the separation of the soul from the body. This
state can only be achieved by an individual who
has perfected his or her soul through the acquisition
of knowledge and positive character traits and the
performance of good deeds. Because the soul has
developed a spiritual, transcendent aspect, it is able
to survive physical death and partake of the greatest
reward imaginable - namely, an unadulterated and
fully satisfying perception of Hashem's wisdom.
It is important to remember that, since we exist in
a physical body during this lifetime and all of our
knowledge is based upon our experiences of the
material world, we cannot possibly imagine what it
would be like to exist metaphysically. This is the
reason why our Sages are compelled to employ
metaphor and analogy when speaking about these
profound matters. Unfortunately, because we are
generally much more comfortable with concrete
imagery than abstract ideas, many people latch
onto the metaphoric depictions of the rabbis as if
they are literal facts. Thus, they develop sensual
concepts of the World to Come that are of necessity
inaccurate. We must accept the reality that the true
nature of the Afterlife is not something that we
have the ability to comprehend during our sojourn
on this Earth.
Wicked people whose entire existence in this
world revolves around material gain and bodily
pleasure have not actualized the metaphysical
dimension of their souls. As a result, their souls
perish with their bodies at the conclusion of their
physical lives. They suffer the ultimate punishment
- the loss of the opportunity to experience the
pleasure of true knowledge and understanding.
In the Messianic era, the righteous will be revived
from the dead and will participate in the establishment
of a utopian society that will be fully aligned
with God's wisdom. Their resurrection will also
afford these great men and women the benefit of
living in an enlightened world community -
something they did not have the opportunity to do
before their deaths. In the end, though, the laws of
nature will continue to reign, and the righteous -
like all other mortals - will eventually pass away
once again, allowing their souls to return to a
blessed state of metaphysical existence for eternity.
I would like to add two important points. The first
point is that our service of Hashem in this world is
inherently rewarding and fulfilling. Any additional
reward is really superfluous to the wise person who
enjoys truth and justice for their own sake.
Similarly, living a materialistic, unenlightened life
is its own punishment. Such a lifestyle frustrates
human beings, denying them the actualization of
their intellectual and spiritual potential while
offering them an endless array of unsatisfying
substitutes that fail to address their uniquely human
needs.
Those who believe that the ultimate reward for
study and righteousness is endless physical
pleasure necessarily maintain that the pleasures of
the body are the ultimate good for human beings,
and that living wisely is a means to the end of
material self-indulgence. Similarly, the belief in
eternal physical torment for the wicked stems from
the assumption that bodily suffering is worse than
the pain of living without wisdom. Both of these
suppositions are contrary to the core teachings of
Judaism. The devoted Jew does not need the
promise of extrinsic reward nor the threat of extrinsic
punishment to entice him or her to live by the
dictates of the Torah. Pleasures and pains of the
body are simply incomparable to the contentment
the soul derives from its pursuit of knowledge and
virtue. By way of analogy, imagine that a wealthy
individual offered you one million dollars cash,
with no strings attached. Would you ask "well,
what's in it for me? What's my reward for accepting
the money?" Any additional reward would pale
by comparison to the receipt of the funds
themselves. In the same way, wisdom is its own
reward, and anyone who asks "what's in it for me"
has not yet experienced its beauty - a beauty so rich
and overflowing that it causes all temporal enjoyments
to seem base and worthless by comparison.
The second point I'd like to emphasize is that the
common notion of "Divine Punishment" is derived
from the theologies of other popular religions, and
not from the teachings of the Torah. In these
religions, God is portrayed as an angry humanlike
being who cannot tolerate the disregard with which
human beings treat Him and His laws. His thirst for
vengeance is so all-consuming that the only way
He can quell his rage is by condemning sinners to
everlasting torment in Hell. This idea is, of course,
based upon the assumption that God takes pleasure
in our morality and religiosity and that He becomes
frustrated and aggressive when we fail to placate
Him with our worship. Advocates of this notion
seem to maintain that God finds comfort in
torturing violators of His commandments for all
eternity.
By contrast, the Jewish view is that righteousness
and wickedness - as well as reward and
punishment - are exclusively for human benefit.
God does not become 'angry' when we sin, nor
does our goodness provide Him any satisfaction.
When we make the right choices, then God may
assist us in furthering our development so that we
more fully actualize the potential for genuine
happiness that He implanted within us - not
because He needs us to continue, but because it is
His will to provide the best for His creatures.
At the same time, when we choose to act immorally,
we do a disservice to ourselves alone. God, in
His infinite mercy, may punish us to correct us and
steer us back onto the proper path, but not because
He takes some sinister, vengeful pleasure in our
suffering. We can see this from the fact that God
only intervenes to punish individuals whom He
knows are sufficiently close to Him to respond
appropriately to censure, as King Solomon wrote,
"The ones God loves, He rebukes." If a person is
so far from God that there is no hope that he will
repent as a result of Divinely imposed punishments,
then God will not implement them.
Hashem does not mete out consequences to make
us suffer for our sins; His purpose in chastising
human beings is to educate and uplift those of us
who are at least potentially receptive to His
message.
From this standpoint, it is clear why subjecting
human souls to everlasting torment in the Hereafter
would be meaningless. Once our lives are over,
all hope of repentance is lost - so what use would
punishment serve after death? Only a religion that
views God in human terms - as a sadistic fatherfigure
who is insatiably angry with his children
and needs to 'vent' - could possibly embrace such
a concept.
I should mention that there are some Rabbis,
such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the
concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood
here as a process of purification of the soul -
metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it
goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final
state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the
material world that serve as obstacles to our
spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering
with the proper development of our souls. The idea
of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of
self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death -
revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the
realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may
enable a person to become freed from some of
these limitations and thus to enjoy a more
complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in
the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of
these ideas, I would encourage you to read
Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek", which can
be purchased in English translation from Moznaim
Publishers (It appears as an appendix in the
volume of the Rambam series entitled "Pirkei
Avot").
You may write Rabbi Maroof at his blog:
http://askrabbimaroof.blogspot.com
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/s019.htm
QuoteJEWISH VIEWS OF GEHENNA
Gehenna is the name given by Jews to Hell. Rev. H. N. Adler, a Jewish Rabbi, says: "They do not teach endless retributive suffering. They hold that it is not conceivable that a God of mercy and justice would ordain infinite punishment for finite wrong-doing." Dr. Dentsch declares: "There is not a word in the Talmud that lends any support to that damnable dogma of endless torment." Dr. Dewes in his "Plea for Rational Translation," says that Gehenna is alluded to four or five times in the Mishna, thus: "The judgment of Gehenna is for twelve months;" "Gehenna is a day in which the impious shall be burnt." Bartolocci declares that "the Jews did not believe in a material fire, and thought that such fire as they did believe in would one day be put out." Rabbi Akiba, "the second Moses," said: "The duration of the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months." Adyoth 3: 10. some rabbis said Gehenna only lasted from Passover to Pentecost. This was the prevalent conception. (Abridged from Excursus 5, in Canon Farrar's "Eternal Hope." He gives in a note these testimonies to prove that the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, did not regard Gehenna as of endless duration). Asarath Maamaroth, f. 35, 1: "There will hereafter be no Gehenna." Jalkuth Shimoni, f. 46, 1: "Gabriel and Michael will open the eight thousand gates of Gehenna, and let out Israelites and righteous Gentiles." A passage in Othoth, (attributed to R. Akiba) declares that Gabriel and Michael will open the forty thousand gates of Gehenna, and set free the damned, and in Emek Hammelech, f. 138, 4, we read: "The wicked stay in Gehenna till the resurrection, and then the Messiah, passing through it redeems them." See Stephelius' Rabbinical Literature.
(The Bible Hell, J.W. Hanson, D.D., 1888)
http://www.thechristianrabbi.org/resurrection.htm -> different tone. Not a real rabbi. aion/forever
http://www.askmoses.com/en/index.html
http://www.chabad.org/asktherabbi/default_cdo/jewish/Ask-the-Rabbi.htm
http://www.asktherabbi.org/
http://www.aish.com/atr/
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/
etc
People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)
QuoteCalvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible. I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.
Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.
Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.
The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as
We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message
Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2010, 03:31:22 PM
People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)
QuoteCalvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible. I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.
Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.
Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.
The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as
We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message
I have to agree Shadow. I grew up engulfed in Calvanist teachings. I accepted their concept of predestination. But, I have to say after actually examining the concept it makes no sense.
So, what I'm supposed to believe is we are to preach the gospel to the whole world. But, God has already picked who would turn and who would burn? Then why bother? We can't change anything by preaching either way. God's will be done even if we sit on our hands. What is the purpose? Then they would have me believe God tortures these individuals that never had a chance for eternity? Come on. I'm not sure how anyone could accept or believe such a concept. It must seem absolutely barbaric and counterintuitive to 90% of mankind. I'm starting to wonder why it doesn't to the other 10%. Bad doctrine doesn't make you seperate from the world it just makes you in error.
Quote from: shawn on August 21, 2010, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2010, 03:31:22 PM
People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)
QuoteCalvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible. I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.
Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.
Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.
The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as
We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message
I have to agree Shadow. I grew up engulfed in Calvanist teachings. I accepted their concept of predestination. But, I have to say after actually examining the concept it makes no sense.
So, what I'm supposed to believe is we are to preach the gospel to the whole world. But, God has already picked who would turn and who would burn? Then why bother? We can't change anything by preaching either way. God's will be done even if we sit on our hands. What is the purpose? Then they would have me believe God tortures these individuals that never had a chance for eternity? Come on. I'm not sure how anyone could accept or believe such a concept. It must seem absolutely barbaric and counterintuitive to 90% of mankind. I'm starting to wonder why it doesn't to the other 10%. Bad doctrine doesn't make you seperate from the world it just makes you in error.
But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
And election?
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
If so, then what might it mean? Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.
But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
And election?
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
If so, then what might it mean? Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.
Molly
To me these scriptures mean that God before the foundation of the world predestined that we would be made whole in Christ despite our rebellion. So instead of "us" being certain indoviduals, the word "us" means the world, humanity. For God calls all people to himself, not a few, and he calls all people to repent in this age, I don't care what anyone says the scriptures says that God is seeking all people in this age, regardless of what happens in some future age and all people heed the call or reject the call, depending on whether they have been given the message of salvation in a proper manner.
QuoteBut could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
And election?
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
If so, then what might it mean? Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.
Yes I agree that they are there, plus there are many others, there is more scriptural support for predestination than free will
What I have a problem with is the dishonesty of preachers that say everyone has an equal chance, then BLAMES those who have not been chosen, by saying things like people CHOOSE to go to hell etc etc
*************************
But TBH the arguments for freewill and predestination are actually irrelevant anyway, as everything is set in stone anyway...the outcome is the same....we are just puppets on a string going through the motions, the only difference is that arminians shift the blame onto mankind, whereas calvinists acknowledge that it was planned that way
I personally prefer a calvinist that doesn't pussyfoot around and comes right out and say God hates most of mankind to an arminian that says "God loves you so much that he has blessed you with freewill, so that if you don't love him back he will honor your decision (by torturing you in some firepit)
Quote from: Shadow...and comes right out and say God hates most of mankind
whoa. I'm not sure how one could draw that conclusion because we still haven't answered the question--those who are predestined are predestined for what?
Could we try to answer that question first? Is it possible that this is the age of the firstfruits the way the Old Testament recorded the age of the Law?
Do you think in the Old Testament, at that time, God hated everyone but the Jews?
Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Quote from: TTFor God calls all people to himself, not a few, and he calls all people to repent in this age, I don't care what anyone says the scriptures says that God is seeking all people in this age, regardless of what happens in some future age and all people heed the call or reject the call, depending on whether they have been given the message of salvation in a proper manner.
He might be calling all, but what are his expectations in light of the fact that he himself admits [and with prophecy] that he has blinded the eyes of some and blocked their ears?
John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2010, 11:57:21 PM
Quote from: Shadow...and comes right out and say God hates most of mankind
whoa. I'm not sure how one could draw that conclusion because we still haven't answered the question--those who are predestined are predestined for what?
Could we try to answer that question first? Is it possible that this is the age of the firstfruits the way the Old Testament recorded the age of the Law?
Do you think in the Old Testament, at that time, God hated everyone but the Jews?
Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
The church I went to believed so, yes....oh they sugarcoated it...but they said that gentiles had no chance under the old covenant, thereby, implying they went to hell...they also believe that after the rapture, gentiles can no longer be saved, and this was an arminian church
I no longer believe in a rapture...
I once went to a councilor and she told me that they only spread the gospel because they don't know who God has chosen to be saved, it was then for the first time that I realized just how dishonest churches can be
I thought about it long and hard and realized that most churches are based on a foundation of pure lies and deception, and that this life is a cruel farce and total sham, if this is what they truly believe
How utterly cruel and deceptive it is to stand up in the front of a pulpit each and every week proclaiming that Jesus loves everyone, when it may not be true
***********************************
Can you begin to see why people are against God, and why so many become atheists (or non-christians) when faced with Calvinist theology, they figure they are screwed anyway, so why not eat drink and be merry, since you are not one of the chosen anyway, you may as well enjoy yourself while you can
If you read calvinist logic they love to quote romans, chapter 9 particularly
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
******************************************
If you put ET or ED (though ED at least reflects a far more merciful God, albeit still not an all loving one, if pushed to the wire I could still accept an ED God, but NEVER an ET God) in the equation what other conclusion can people come to, life doesn't reflect an all loving God, at least not in this age, eg problem of evil, pestilence and suffering, it's all fair and well to blame satan...but who created satan KNOWING what the outcome would be
The amazing thing to me, is that Calvinists actually EXPECT people to love and worship their God, when they claim (either directly/indirectly) that he HATES most of them anyway
Quote from: ShadowThe church I went to believed so, yes....oh they sugarcoated it...but they said that gentiles had no chance under the old covenant, thereby, implying they went to hell...they also believe that after the rapture, gentiles can no longer be saved, and this was an arminian church
Well, that's interesting but I'm more interested in what conclusions you can come to yourself because you can read the scriptures as well as anyone.
So let's look at how God treats 'strangers' [that is non Jews] in the Old Testament for a minute--
Why would God command the good treatment, charity for, and even the love of strangers if he so abhored them?
Leviticus 19:10
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 10:19
Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Isn't this the same as the great commandment given by Jesus?
Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Molly, from my view, you're making some great posts in this thread. Amen.
My understanding since coming to UR is, God does call all. All are predestined. Some just join Him now, called out and predestined in this lifetime - the rest later. Calvin missed the UR part.
Actually, maybe the ecclesia are pre-destined, while the rest (through the broad road) are destined. :thinking:
Quote from: jabcat on August 22, 2010, 02:17:38 AM
Actually, maybe the ecclesia are pre-destined, while the rest (through the broad road) are destined. :thinking:
Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.Well, he did buy the whole field to get the treasure.
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be
a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Amen, great point on buying the whole field. I'd never thought of that. :thumbsup:
Although I see many ultimate reconciliation scriptures, I also see the "priesthood", the "set aside", i.e., IMO the predestined - the pecular people/especially believers. IMO, it's all a part of God's plan, including the Good Shephard seeking that one lost sheep and bringing in the "other sheep" into the one fold. (Jn. 10:16) Hallelujah. What a Savior!
[a] "peculiar" [people]
G4047
περιποίησις
peripoiēsis
per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
From G4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension preservation: - obtain (-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2010, 01:33:36 AM
Well, that's interesting but I'm more interested in what conclusions you can come to yourself because you can read the scriptures as well as anyone.
Yes indeed I can, however, I've seen other scriptures where God tells his followers to wipe out entire villages etc (verses that when I went to church, they avoided like the plague) as well as others that paint a ghastly picture that I won't address here, so I'm confused to say the least, hopefully that confusion will disappear with the passage of time
One thing I do know, however, is that I don't identify with either the fundamentalist christian or fundamentalist atheist mindset
I seem to identify mostly with URers more than anyone else
Quote from: thinktank on August 21, 2010, 09:51:51 PMBut could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?
I think he was right. I also think the standard 5%=elect is correct. (or even to high)
What I disagree with is: What is the elect? What is their destiny and the destiny of the non-elect?
It's not about heaven or hell.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2010, 02:10:25 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 21, 2010, 09:51:51 PMBut could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?
I think he was right. I also think the standard 5%=elect is correct. (or even to high)
What I disagree with is: What is the elect? What is their destiny and the destiny of the non-elect?
It's not about heaven or hell.
Exactly, although you can see why Calvin might have thought that.
In particular, you don't need priests unless there are people who are not priests [at least at the moment] to minister to. A priest stands in the gap between man and God.
Where did you get that number of 5 percent? lol
Quote from: ShadowYes indeed I can, however, I've seen other scriptures where God tells his followers to wipe out entire villages etc (verses that when I went to church, they avoided like the plague) as well as others that paint a ghastly picture that I won't address here, so I'm confused to say the least, hopefully that confusion will disappear with the passage of time
Yes, well, I'm going to avoid those passages, too, lol. There have been whole threads here about those passages, and I don't want to get sidetracked by them now. But, you say you are confused. Confusion comes from not having all the facts. So if we see that God is kind and loving to the stranger, and even commands it, in both the Old and New Testament, [I'm assuming you would agree with that] could we at least admit we don't have all the facts on those passages if they are causing us confusion? Confusion denotes an apparent contradiction.
So my approach is to lay those aside and continue to trust God at his word, at least until all the facts are known. In other words, if there is something we don't understand, give God the benefit of the doubt and lay it aside, because that is the only way we have any hope of eventually getting all the facts.
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2010, 05:00:10 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2010, 02:10:25 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 21, 2010, 09:51:51 PMBut could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?
I think he was right. I also think the standard 5%=elect is correct. (or even to high)
What I disagree with is: What is the elect? What is their destiny and the destiny of the non-elect?
It's not about heaven or hell.
Exactly, although you can see why Calvin might have thought that.
In particular, you don't need priests unless there are people who are not priests [at least at the moment] to minister to. A priest stands in the gap between man and God.
Where did you get that number of 5 percent? lol
I'm a liar I've read such numbers on ET sites. Even calculations of how many plunge into hell per minute...
99% 99 sheep is not enough :winkgrin:
Quote from: wwEven calculations of how many plunge into hell per minute...
Sheesh. Don't these people have anything better to do?
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
Right or wrong, the 5% is a very common estimate of those who have actually "heard and responded to the gospel". Throughout history, including the whole world, every nation, every tribe? I think it may be close to being right. Maybe 10-15 %? Either way, if there's not a plan to save the rest in the age(s) to come, then Jesus' mission of "I came to seek and to save the lost"...well, it might make one wonder about the success of the mission. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2010, 08:38:08 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 21, 2010, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: Shadow on August 21, 2010, 03:31:22 PM
People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)
QuoteCalvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible. I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.
Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.
Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.
The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as
We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message
I have to agree Shadow. I grew up engulfed in Calvanist teachings. I accepted their concept of predestination. But, I have to say after actually examining the concept it makes no sense.
So, what I'm supposed to believe is we are to preach the gospel to the whole world. But, God has already picked who would turn and who would burn? Then why bother? We can't change anything by preaching either way. God's will be done even if we sit on our hands. What is the purpose? Then they would have me believe God tortures these individuals that never had a chance for eternity? Come on. I'm not sure how anyone could accept or believe such a concept. It must seem absolutely barbaric and counterintuitive to 90% of mankind. I'm starting to wonder why it doesn't to the other 10%. Bad doctrine doesn't make you seperate from the world it just makes you in error.
But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
And election?
Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
If so, then what might it mean? Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.
I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge. But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination. If I am to create 10 different medicines and I know 9 of them won't work yet I continue to make them...I have created 9 drugs predestined for failure.
So, yes I believe God picks and chooses as I believe in God's sovereignty. I do not believe man can twart God's will. This is the main issue I have will free will and ED. It's the reason I continue to explore. UR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones. :bigGrin:
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 10:36:39 PMUR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones. :bigGrin:
UR is also a glass darkly. But lighter than ED and even more as ET.
:2c:
The most important thing is to figure out the framework of Fathers plan/promise.
The details we will never know I think.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2010, 10:38:48 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 10:36:39 PMUR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones. :bigGrin:
UR is also a glass darkly. But lighter than ED and even more as ET.
:2c:
The most important thing is to figure out the framework of Fathers plan/promise.
The details we will never know I think.
I remember when I first read about UR. I began weeping. Something in my spirit had always told me ET is wrong. A great weight was lifted from my chest and I knew true relationship with God for the first time. Since that was only a little over a year ago and I have been "saved" since I was 7 you can guess what went on in those in between years. Alot of law, a ton of lashing of self, failure, misery, depression and all the actions that go along with that. I can't describe the amount of mental/spiritual anguish ET has brought me.
With that said, I initially refused to go into more depth because I sooo needed to believe it. Once I got the courage to look I continued to see more and more evidence that ET was indeed not true and fundamentally unsound doctrine. But, I have been torn since between ED and UR. I am able to reconcile both with a loving God. I will say though that UR answers more questions for me. IMO ED from the english texts is more supported...or at the very least its more apparent to the naked eye. I'm hoping I will get further clarification as I go along. So, the journey continues with a new outlook on life and relationship with Jesus.
Good grief...Thou generation of hypocrites and vipers! Pharisees!
They have enough time to calculate how many people are going to the Hell they say is so horrid and everlasting, but they won't lift more than a finger to go out and use that time to fill the Earth with loving Gospel.
Shows the kind of God they are trying to mimic I suppose. Indirect judgement via condone-ment of the many going into Hell fire, even to the point of cold, cruel, statistical calculation, demoting mankind into mere numbers that burn forever! -_-
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 10:50:15 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2010, 10:38:48 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 10:36:39 PMUR resolves these problems for me but brings up new ones. :bigGrin:
UR is also a glass darkly. But lighter than ED and even more as ET.
:2c:
The most important thing is to figure out the framework of Fathers plan/promise.
The details we will never know I think.
I remember when I first read about UR. I began weeping. Something in my spirit had always told me it's wrong. A great weight was lifted from my chest and I knew true relationship with God for the first time. Since that was only a little over a year ago and I have been "saved" since I was 7 you can guess what went on in those in between years. Alot of law, a ton of lashing of self, failure, misery, depression and all the actions that go along with that. I can't describe the amount of mental/spiritual anguish ET has brought me.
With that said, I initially refused to go into more depth because I sooo needed to believe it. Once I got the courage to look I continued to see more and more evidence that ET was indeed not true and fundamentally unsound doctrine. But, I have been torn since between ED and UR. I am able to reconcile both with a loving God. I will say though that UR answers more questions for me. IMO ED from the english texts is more supported...or at the very least its more apparent to the naked eye. I'm hoping I will get further clarification as I go along. So, the journey continues with a new outlook on life and relationship with Jesus.
:thumbsup: Praise God.
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 10:36:39 PM
I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge. But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination.
For me, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing.
Think of it as a person driving on a road with choices to turn right, left, go straight, or stop. Imagine God hovering above - He sees the entire road; He sees every turn we choose. He does not force us to make any of those turns, He allows us to choose.
He is outside of time (and we are within it). It's part of being omnipotent and omniscient - He can see me at this moment as well as 20 years ago as well as at the moment of my death all at once. Seeing all those moments (and every one in-between) and knowing everything I will say or do or think, doesn't mean I had no choice in the matter; He didn't cause me to sin and then punishes me for doing what He scripted for me to do.
He is God - why couldn't He tell the prophets in OT times what was going to unfold centuries later? He is God - why can't He allow us all complete freedom to choose good or evil, and still accomplish His plans? He is God; the Bible is filled how He uses what people meant for evil, to accomplish good.
That is how I see prophecy and foreknowledge. :2c:
Quote from: LS on August 24, 2010, 12:32:56 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 10:36:39 PM
I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge. But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination.
For me, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing.
Think of it as a person driving on a road with choices to turn right, left, go straight, or stop. Imagine God hovering above - He sees the entire road; He sees every turn we choose. He does not force us to make any of those turns, He allows us to choose.
He is outside of time (and we are within it). It's part of being omnipotent and omniscient - He can see me at this moment as well as 20 years ago as well as at the moment of my death all at once. Seeing all those moments (and every one in-between) and knowing everything I will say or do or think, doesn't mean I had no choice in the matter; He didn't cause me to sin and then punishes me for doing what He scripted for me to do.
He is God - why couldn't He tell the prophets in OT times what was going to unfold centuries later? He is God - why can't He allow us all complete freedom to choose good or evil, and still accomplish His plans? He is God; the Bible is filled how He uses what people meant for evil, to accomplish good.
That is how I see prophecy and foreknowledge. :2c:
Spot on :thumbsup: Although when it comes to whether God knows how our lives are going to be regardless, I'm not sure about that. I think time is so complex and the ways of God. I think the program called Dr who has some great ideas about how time works. This program shows how a man can travel back in time and change certain events, but some events cannot be changed no matter what he tries to do to fix things. So if man went back in time to try and save Jesus, there is nothing we could do to stop it, somehow God will find a way to get the plan unfolded, perhaps certain details could be changed about history, e.g maybe dr who could I don't know, change a small aspect without interfering with the scriptures, for ultimately it's God who fullfills scripture and not man, yet man can go against Gods word and make the word not come to pass or change Gods mind about that word.
I agree that predestination and foreknowledge are 2 different things, and I believe your post does not preclude that, Shawn. I understand you to say if God predestined, then He's in control - and if He foreknew, then He's still in control - because even with that foreknowledge, He still did what He did and does what He does. I agree.
The mind of man plans his way, but God directs His steps. Pr. 16:9
God is greater than our heart and knows all things. I Jn 3:20
Ps. 139
3 You ...are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
... When I awake, I am still with You. Pr. 16:9
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.. Ephesians 1:5 (His will is 'thelema', much stronger than echomai (sp?) which means 'wish')
So I believe the firstfruits are predestined, and the rest are destined – when all is under Jesus' authority, and He hands it over and God is All in All.
Quote from: jabcat on August 24, 2010, 02:56:43 AM
I agree that predestination and foreknowledge are 2 different things, and I believe your post does not preclude that, Shawn. I understand you to say if God predestined, then He's in control - and if He foreknew, then He's still in control - because even with that foreknowledge, He still did what He did and does what He does. I agree.
The mind of man plans his way, but God directs His steps. Pr. 16:9
God is greater than our heart and knows all things. I Jn 3:20
Ps. 139
3 You ...are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
... When I awake, I am still with You. Pr. 16:9
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.. Ephesians 1:5 (His will is 'thelema', much stronger than echomai (sp?) which means 'wish')
So I believe the firstfruits are predestined, and the rest are destined – when all is under Jesus' authority, and He hands it over and God is All in All.
:thumbsup:
:bigGrin: micah. God bless and continue to comfort you, brother.
Quote from: LS on August 24, 2010, 12:32:56 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 22, 2010, 10:36:39 PM
I believe there has to be predestination or at the very least foreknowledge. But, I'm unsure how God could have foreknowledge and it not be called predestination.
For me, foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing.
For me they are the same.
QuoteThink of it as a person driving on a road with choices to turn right, left, go straight, or stop. Imagine God hovering above - He sees the entire road; He sees every turn we choose. He does not force us to make any of those turns, He allows us to choose.
Let's say one road leads to hell and the other to heaven. Because of His foreknowledge He knew what road you would take. With that knowledge in mind He still decided to create you. So He predestined you to a certain road. And with that road he predistined an outcome.
Aint all this your beginnning to post a taboo subject? If not....
The way I see it, whether it be foreknowledge or presdestination, God is the cause behind whatever choice a man makes.(Psa. 103:14) So His foreknowledge is the cause in how you will chose. And as for presdestination, well if you are predestinated, by
Him, you aint making no choices to the contrary, right?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 24, 2010, 10:27:17 AM
Aint all this your beginnning to post a taboo subject? If not....
The way I see it, whether it be foreknowledge or presdestination, God is the cause behind whatever choice a man makes.(Psa. 103:14) So His foreknowledge is the cause in how you will chose. And as for presdestination, well if you are predestinated, by
Him, you aint making no choices to the contrary, right?
What do you mean by God is the cause behind every choice? Do you mean God is the influencer or God is the one who made that choice for you?
I belive that man has a destiny but sometimes the disobedience of man means that destiny is posponed or even lost, I think it sometimes changes too if God plans to do something new.
Quote from: thinktank on August 24, 2010, 08:42:44 PM
What do you mean by God is the cause behind every choice? Do you mean God is the influencer or God is the one who made that choice for you?
I don't remeber the exact words but something along this line: Man makes his own choices but God guides man's steps.
QuoteI belive that man has a destiny but sometimes the disobedience of man means that destiny is posponed or even lost, I think it sometimes changes too if God plans to do something new.
You mean mankind forces Father into backup plans. Father
changes plans?
KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2010, 09:40:13 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 24, 2010, 08:42:44 PM
What do you mean by God is the cause behind every choice? Do you mean God is the influencer or God is the one who made that choice for you?
I don't remeber the exact words but something along this line: Man makes his own choices but God guides man's steps.
QuoteI belive that man has a destiny but sometimes the disobedience of man means that destiny is posponed or even lost, I think it sometimes changes too if God plans to do something new.
You mean mankind forces Father into backup plans. Father changes plans?
KJVMal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
That's a good analogy. God is the guide of my footsteps and prepares the way before me, that where he is I may be there also, so that we may meet, I am there waiting for you to ascend higher than the eagle, come up hither, let my words guide you and my fire burn away the dross.
Yeah I think man does force God into backup plans. Are we not beings of inperfection, do we not fail? But when we fail God picks up the pieces and turns our evil into good. For his plans towards us are not evil but plans to prosper us and to be in good health. But when we go astray the lord chastizes us for our benefit, which is grevious but is for our good. Israel sins God casts them out, Gods word say I will never again abandon you, but yet send judgements upon Israel and scatters them across the nation. the prophecy says that the redemer will come to Israel and Israel will rejoice, but the hard hearted Isrealis rejected the words of Jesus so that the apostle Paul no longer preaches to Israel but to the gentiles.
Life, and existence is a bit like a living book. We are the characters that God has written, and designed, and created for us a plot to follow. It is not a plot of robotic control, but is a story where God's glory shines through the deep characters that all of us are.
Predestiny you might say, is God's inspiration being written; he has the story already planned out, from cover to endless cover. The freewill of man is only in the writing as the pen of God moves across the page, the ink that is man, flowing forth freely from the nib - But always the nib has its purpose, its course, the words being written shall not be hindered, nor halted by the will of ink, however freely it may flow upon the page.
God even put his own character into the living book. Jesus Christ, God the Author made manifest in the story he has created. The idea of Christ being God's "character" in his own book is quite a revelation, and a neat way to explain the idea behind the trinity I think, I'll probably have to write something on it and post it here later! :D
Quote from: thinktank on August 24, 2010, 10:19:29 PMYeah I think man does force God into backup plans.
My opinion is opposite. It's totally against all other teachings. For me it's simple; there are 2 choices:
a] God is not all powerful. God has flaws. An therefore mankind can thwart His plan.
b] God is endlessly powerful, smart, etc, etc. And therefore we can not change his plan.
QuoteAre we not beings of inperfection, do we not fail?
a] Man fails -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
b] Man is imperfect -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
c] Man is imperfect -> According to plan -> Design is succesful -> Perfect designer.
I pick option 'c'.
You seem to pick option 'a' and 'b'
You know even God has His limits....
KJVPsa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect:
He can't be perfect and a failure at the same time... :winkgrin:
QuoteBut when we fail God picks up the pieces and turns our evil into good.
Agreed. But picking up the pieces is as planned. Not a backup plan.
QuoteFor his plans towards us are not evil but plans to prosper us and to be in good health.
Agreed. (unchanged plans)
QuoteBut when we go astray the lord chastizes us for our benefit, which is grevious but is for our good.
Again agreed. But not as a backup plan.
For me it's very handy to always remember God's unlimited power, skills, intelligence, etc
Quite often I see choices considered and idea's defend of which I think: How can even be a question? It points to imperfect ways of God.
It makes me think of THIS (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/source/Christian_double_talk.htm) list of Christian double talk.
Quote from: Lefein on August 24, 2010, 10:36:13 PM
Life, and existence is a bit like a living book. We are the characters that God has written, and designed, and created for us a plot to follow. It is not a plot of robotic control, but is a story where God's glory shines through the deep characters that all of us are.
Sorry Lefein it isn't allowed to discuss free will.
But there isn't ban on discussions about animals. So I tell you something I've recently read on a fortune cookie :winkgrin:
Long ago someone build a huge maze for his sheep. The maze was really very huge. Millions of corridors. The maze had only one exit. Above the doorway was written "The fold". Anyway that man put his sheep in that maze. The sheep scattered all took their own route. Left. Right. Dead end. Reverse. And finally... one by one they entered the fold. They freely chose their own route within the design limitations of the maze. But did they really chose the exit?
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:FE6o8ETJt2JOFM:http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/divid3d/sheep_shepherd_maze.gif)
That makes it difficult to discuss the nature of the destiny of man, and his predestination unfortunately...
The maze makes sense however, it is a good illustration.
Just a thought for discussion...
What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part. I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will. I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line. God knows point A and point B of our lives. How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance. I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner? Did he will me to scratch my head? Am I merely a puppet on a string? While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will. I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins. Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2010, 11:19:11 PM
Quote from: Lefein on August 24, 2010, 10:36:13 PM
Life, and existence is a bit like a living book. We are the characters that God has written, and designed, and created for us a plot to follow. It is not a plot of robotic control, but is a story where God's glory shines through the deep characters that all of us are.
Sorry Lefein it isn't allowed to discuss free will.
But there isn't ban on discussions about animals. So I tell you something I've recently read on a fortune cookie :winkgrin:
Long ago someone build a huge maze for his sheep. The maze was really very huge. Millions of corridors. The maze had only one exit. Above the doorway was written "The fold". Anyway that man put his sheep in that maze. The sheep scattered all took their own route. Left. Right. Dead end. Reverse. And finally... one by one they entered the fold. They freely chose their own route within the design limitations of the maze. But did they really chose the exit?
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:FE6o8ETJt2JOFM:http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e357/divid3d/sheep_shepherd_maze.gif)
Then I apologize for my post. But, it appears many skirt around the topic and make their points on fw. Either we should discuss free will or totally leave the concept out of our posts. If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor then I don't see the issue. Free will is a subject that I would most certainly like to discuss because I don't have a firm grasp on the concept.
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
Just a thought for discussion...
What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.
If God allows us to make choices then that's part of His will/plan.
Our choices may reject His plan but He won't change His plan because of it. Neither will the outcome change.
Just think about just before the destruction of Sodom. Do you spare them if there are 30 good men? Yes I do. 20, 10 ,1. Was man driving a bargain with God? There were 0 good men so Sodom got destroyed. Was God's plan changed? Now imagine that there was at least 1 good man in Sodom. God wouldn't have destroyed Sodom. Would that mean His plan was thwarted? Or did did things go as He knew before creation?
QuoteI was always taught perfect will vs permissive will. I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.
I'll steer a bit clear of the free will stuff. It's not really important imo. No matter if our free will is 0% or 100% it's still according to plan and God knew what we would do before He started creating. So for me it never is against the will of Father.
QuoteGod knows point A and point B of our lives. How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance. I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner? Did he will me to scratch my head? Am I merely a puppet on a string? While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will. I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins. Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.
God wired your brain. You brain made you grab that chicken.
God made flowers. This fall I put a bulb in the ground next summer it has become a flower. Does God comes down from heaven every night and add a few molecules to make the flower grow? Or did He design nature (wired the brain) in such a way that a bulb turns into a flower?
Look again at my maze example read everything twice..... :winkgrin:
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:50:14 PMThen I apologize for my post. But, it appears many skirt around the topic and make their points on fw. Either we should discuss free will or totally leave the concept out of our posts. If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor then I don't see the issue. Free will is a subject that I would most certainly like to discuss because I don't have a firm grasp on the concept.
The way I understand it, the crew and the forum owner are not against discussions on free will and trinity. But history shows that such discussions quickly become heated debates. then threads have to be locked and in a few cases members have been banned for a week. And because of that they decided to ban the topic. Plus, not sure, the forum owner wants a primary focus on UR.
OTOH if you, like me, believe that Father has a plan that is 100% sure to evolve as He planned/wishes/desires, then you have the framework. You know the outcome. The details are of less importance. But of course nice to know.
Example:
Train=God's plan.
A train drives from A to B. Humanity is in that train.
Does it really matter if the people in that train are (not) allowed to walk/talk/read/sleep/sing/etc?
The train just keeps going and arrives at B no matter what the people in that train are doing.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2010, 12:25:49 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:50:14 PMThen I apologize for my post. But, it appears many skirt around the topic and make their points on fw. Either we should discuss free will or totally leave the concept out of our posts. If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor then I don't see the issue. Free will is a subject that I would most certainly like to discuss because I don't have a firm grasp on the concept.
The way I understand it, the crew and the forum owner are not against discussions on free will and trinity. But history shows that such discussions quickly become heated debates. then threads have to be locked and in a few cases members have been banned for a week. And because of that they decided to ban the topic. Plus, not sure, the forum owner wants a primary focus on UR.
OTOH if you, like me, believe that Father has a plan that is 100% sure to evolve as He planned/wishes/desires, then you have the framework. You know the outcome. The details are of less importance. But of course nice to know.
Example:
Train=God's plan.
A train drives from A to B. Humanity is in that train.
Does it really matter if the people in that train are (not) allowed to walk/talk/read/sleep/sing/etc?
The train just keeps going and arrives at B no matter what the people in that train are doing.
I've posted on it multiple times, but I believe it may have all been before you were on-board Shawn.
IMO, your key phrase is this - "
If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor...." Unfortunately, history shows that's not what happens with certain issues. And this is one of'em. Too divisive, too strong of opinions, sets off too many issues within some members.
So, I'll ditto everything WW just said. I'll add sort of a quick review of what I've posted in the past on it; we can talk about issues involved, how we believe God works, etc.,
especially when focused on specific scriptures. I.e., "God works all things according to the counsel of His will", etc. The main problems come into play when 2 things happen 1) members start throwing around the specific "free will" and sovereignty terms (which become like red capes to a bull) and 2) members start charging at the red capes, and end up goring each other while their horns have become locked. It's one of 2 or 3 topics that history has shown this happens with, so it's moderated both tightly and artfully; as in, discussion is allowed, but in terms of perhaps what you describe as "beating around the bush". Again, talking about concepts, situations, and scriptures, without resorting to the too-easy-to-reach-for hot button terms that just send too many straight through the rafters.
I'll look for a past (further) explanatory post and re-post it if I can find it.
I personally recommend this article from the TM main page. :thumbsup:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2693.msg27186#msg27186
---------------------------
A post from awhile back on the topic....
Thanks for your understanding. I'm not saying "________, you better not ever let that word slip out of your mouth!". I am saying I bet that 99% of the time I can express my POV without saying "Bob, man does not have freewill, it's a limited will - God's will rather than man's will. Yep, that's the way I see it; no free will". I can make my point (even being a bit of smart-aleck) by saying, "if you think it's up to you, then save yourself". Never used any terms/labels, point still probably made (even though expressing it like that, you'd probably still want to smack me :bigGrin: ). Anyway, it's an example. A bad one - but an example.
And conversely, I bet 99% of the time you can express your POV without saying "Sally, man has freewill and I sure do believe it, yes sir, we got ourselves a dose of freewill". Not telling you what to say, you're quite capable; and you may say it quite a bit different than this. But just as an example to express my point, I could see you saying something like "I believe we have to make choices, God requires it, He hold us accountable, etc". Never used the hot-button term, point made, and able to stay on point rather than veer into a "freewill!"/"not-freewill!", "freewill, Stupid!"/"not-freewill, Stupid!" food fight. A little extra creativity, a little extra consideration, etc., still basically able to say what we all believe.
The main thing is, a time or two in passing to answer a question or set a premise is one thing - that even though it's an off-limits topic, we'd probably blink and let it slide. But bringing it up over and over, multiple times in a short "conversation", is likely to be waving honey around in front of bears, the bears are gon'na head for the honey jar, and somebody's gonna end up getting clawed or bit!
Give it some thought, don't feel smacked around, but do realize it's a serious issue and is regarded as such. We can do this without posts starting to get cut and all that jazz.
We are brothers and sisters here, and God is helping me see that I need to act like it (for a change). We can do it!
God's blessings, James.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2010, 12:10:32 AM
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
Just a thought for discussion...
What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.
If God allows us to make choices then that's part of His will/plan.
Our choices may reject His plan but He won't change His plan because of it. Neither will the outcome change.
Just think about just before the destruction of Sodom. Do you spare them if there are 30 good men? Yes I do. 20, 10 ,1. Was man driving a bargain with God? There were 0 good men so Sodom got destroyed. Was God's plan changed? Now imagine that there was at least 1 good man in Sodom. God wouldn't have destroyed Sodom. Would that mean His plan was thwarted? Or did did things go as He knew before creation?
I think there are many plans in existent all at the same time, so the plan you are refering to, what is that plan exactly?
Because too me, there are certain plans that God has for our lives that are not fullfilled due to our failures or sins. If it were not for our sins, right now we would be living in paradise, but becasue of our sins and the sins of man the earth is a mess. Is it Gods will for the earth to be a mess? In some ways to chastize us yes but mostly the will of God on this matter is a definite no. We can easilly deduce this because when mankind got so wicked, out of his will, he sent a flood to destroy the earth. People tent to forget that the bible is the written revelation of God, that it was being written as time unfolded, that means it had unlimited possibilities.
The master plan you are refering to can man thwart it? Of course not how can man stop God, for it is he that brought us into existence by his will, to produce creatures after his image, but he looks for those who have faith in him. I think the scriptures are so smart in their execution that anythings possible, e.g is the antichrist set in stone, or could the antichrist be any person, if it is any person does that void the scriptures, I don't belive it is, so God is very flexible with his scriptures, the living word I belive in not the dead word , which means things can still unfold to his will :winkgrin:.
QuoteI was always taught perfect will vs permissive will. I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.
I'll steer a bit clear of the free will stuff. It's not really important imo. No matter if our free will is 0% or 100% it's still according to plan and God knew what we would do before He started creating. So for me it never is against the will of Father.
QuoteGod knows point A and point B of our lives. How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance. I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner? Did he will me to scratch my head? Am I merely a puppet on a string? While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will. I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins. Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.
God wired your brain. You brain made you grab that chicken.
God made flowers. This fall I put a bulb in the ground next summer it has become a flower. Does God comes down from heaven every night and add a few molecules to make the flower grow? Or did He design nature (wired the brain) in such a way that a bulb turns into a flower?
Look again at my maze example read everything twice..... :winkgrin:
You mean his stomach made him grab that chicken :winkgrin: another man might say no his hand grabbed that chicken, another, no his nose.
Before Jesus the gentiles were slaves to sin but now Jesus the light has come there is no where to hide their head, before they were in bondage to sin, but Jesus came to set us free and set an example that he overcome the world, so now we are without excuse.
Just for fun!
http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/moral.html
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on August 25, 2010, 02:26:14 AM
Just for fun!
http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/moral.html
Paul
Amen and thank you my friend. :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
Just a thought for discussion...
What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part. I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will. I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line. God knows point A and point B of our lives. How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance. I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner? Did he will me to scratch my head? Am I merely a puppet on a string? While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will. I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins. Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.
Amen.
What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.
I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in. :2c:
Scripting is a strong word but....
(Romans 8:20) For, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject––not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope
This verse, and others, do indicate that Father does do certain things that makes it harder not to sin. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2010, 04:44:20 PM
Scripting is a strong word but....
(Romans 8:20) For, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject––not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope
This verse, and others, do indicate that Father does do certain things that makes it harder not to sin. :2c:
I can buy that. I believe the deck has certainly been stacked. Obviously, this is for the purposes only God knows. We did not choose to be born into slavery to sin. We did not choose to be subject to fleshly desires. With that said, God has indeed shown mankind mercy. I choose to be a slave to Christ. I choose the spiritual over the carnal. But, I do so knowing this ability did not come from me. It's one of the main reasons I always questioned ET. I do not believe God makes me sin. I believe I choose to sin but I know he formed me subject to sin. I believe he did so...in order to shown me mercy and to form me into a useable vessel.
Quote from: LS on August 25, 2010, 04:19:13 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
Just a thought for discussion...
What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part. I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will. I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line. God knows point A and point B of our lives. How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance. I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner? Did he will me to scratch my head? Am I merely a puppet on a string? While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will. I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins. Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.
Amen.
What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.
I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in. :2c:
Exactly, the foolishness of it all is laid bare for all to see, that God does not sin and cannot sin.
And we have to keep in mind that God did send His Son to die for us.
In the end He is ALL in ALL.
It was His purpose from the beginning, just saying that He lets things happen is incomplete because He created ALL things according to His purpose.
Quote from: thinktank on August 25, 2010, 07:32:47 PM
Quote from: LS on August 25, 2010, 04:19:13 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
Just a thought for discussion...
What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part. I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will. I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line. God knows point A and point B of our lives. How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance. I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner? Did he will me to scratch my head? Am I merely a puppet on a string? While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will. I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins. Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.
Amen.
What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.
I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in. :2c:
Exactly, the foolishness of it all is laid bare for all to see, that God does not sin and cannot sin.
He cannot sin because to sin is to go against what God has declared, He cannot do anything He doesn't desire or purpose, therefore He cannot sin.
It was His will that we'd be born into slavery to sin exactly like it was His will that Israel was to be put into slavery in Egypt for 400 years.
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 07:12:40 PMI can buy that. I believe the deck has certainly been stacked.
QuoteI do not believe God makes me sin. I believe I choose to sin but I know he formed me subject to sin.
Don't you see a very slippery slope here?
How much stacking the deck does it take to say God made you sin?
QuoteI believe he did so...in order to shown me mercy and to form me into a useable vessel.
It seems God stacked the deck not just a little. Everybody must sin other wise He can't show mercy.
If your 4 year old son takes your gun you left on the kitchen table and accidently shoots his 5 year old friend. Who's guilty?
a] Your son because you told him never to take things from the kitchen table?
b] His friend because he didn't duck the bullet?
c] The gun?
d] The father of yours son's friend because he should have keep an eye on his son?
e] You?
I.m.o. the answer is "e".
You set the playing field by leaving that gun on the table. You stacked the deck.
I would say you did something very wrong but are not guilty of murder because it was an accident.
But what if you left that gun there on purpose?
What would the judge say? "Shawn you did stack the deck but that's not important because your son did the shooting so not you but he is guilty."
:2c:
Quote from: Quaesitor on August 25, 2010, 07:38:34 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 25, 2010, 07:32:47 PM
Quote from: LS on August 25, 2010, 04:19:13 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 24, 2010, 11:46:42 PM
Just a thought for discussion...
What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part. I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will. I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line. God knows point A and point B of our lives. How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance. I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner? Did he will me to scratch my head? Am I merely a puppet on a string? While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will. I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins. Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.
Amen.
What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.
I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in. :2c:
Exactly, the foolishness of it all is laid bare for all to see, that God does not sin and cannot sin.
He cannot sin because to sin is to go against what God has declared, He cannot do anything He doesn't desire or purpose, therefore He cannot sin.
It was His will that we'd be born into slavery to sin exactly like it was His will that Israel was to be put into slavery in Egypt for 400 years.
"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." James 1:12-15
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2010, 07:44:44 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 07:12:40 PMI can buy that. I believe the deck has certainly been stacked.
QuoteI do not believe God makes me sin. I believe I choose to sin but I know he formed me subject to sin.
Don't you see a very slippery slope here?
How much stacking the deck does it take to say God made you sin?
QuoteI believe he did so...in order to shown me mercy and to form me into a useable vessel.
It seems God stacked the deck not just a little. Everybody must sin other wise He can't show mercy.
If your 4 year old son takes your gun you left on the kitchen table and accidently shoots his 5 year old friend. Who's guilty?
a] Your son because you told him never to take things from the kitchen table?
b] His friend because he didn't duck the bullet?
c] The gun?
d] The father of yours son's friend because he should have keep an eye on his son?
e] You?
I.m.o. the answer is "e".
You set the playing field by leaving that gun on the table. You stacked the deck.
I would say you did something very wrong but are not guilty of murder because it was an accident.
But what if you left that gun there on purpose?
What would the judge say? "Shawn you did stack the deck but that's not important because your son did the shooting so not you but he is guilty."
:2c:
The above quote is a response to this post as well. I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument. Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.
I can only speak for myself. But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors. That is very dangerous territory for me. I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying? I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out. Why produce fruit? Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens. For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.
For those above this kind of thinking then maybe this post isn't for you. But, everything in my spiritual walk has directed me to own my sin...my wrong actions...impure thinking and seek the face of God. It's not to say one should beat themselves with many lashes...it's to say we should own it...repent and turn from our sins. When I struggle I seek relationship even more.
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 07:56:51 PM
I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument. Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.
I don't know the answer Shawn. I see a conflict. I see a God that claims to hate sin. But that same God declares in various verses He stacked the deck to make sinning much more likely. "all have sinned"
QuoteI can only speak for myself. But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors. That is very dangerous territory for me. I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying? I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out. Why produce fruit? Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens. For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.
That line of thinking shows you are a sinner. You have to be restrained...
There are many sins. Most people don't even consider to torture a random person. They don't need to be restrained to not commit that sin.
But for many being "creative" with taxes is almost a duty why it's against the law.
I think a true saint doesn't need to restrain himself. It just comes natural. Being as saint is no act.
A man named Robert has a daughter.
The daughter's name is Mary.
Mary marries a man named Derick.
Derick abuses his wife Mary, beating her, slapping her, insulting her, degrading her physically and emotionally.
Whose fault is it for the abuse?
Is it Mary's fault that she exists to be abused? Is it Derick's father-in-law for bringing Mary into the world where she experienced the abuse? Or is it Derick's fault for abusing?
Its just a matter of how much one believes that God is.
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
I just happen to believe that God is in ALL THINGS and I find no reason to blame him for any miss step that I THINK is a miss step. He is well aware of how our feeble minds think. He is quite aware of ALL that has, is, and will happen, He is not shocked by His creaton. I will rest in Him.
Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Mic 7:9 The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2010, 08:27:02 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 07:56:51 PM
I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument. Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.
I don't know the answer Shawn. I see a conflict. I see a God that claims to hate sin. But that same God declares in various verses He stacked the deck to make sinning much more likely. "all have sinned"
QuoteI can only speak for myself. But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors. That is very dangerous territory for me. I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying? I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out. Why produce fruit? Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens. For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.
That line of thinking shows you are a sinner. You have to be restrained...
There are many sins. Most people don't even consider to torture a random person. They don't need to be restrained to not commit that sin.
But for many being "creative" with taxes is almost a duty why it's against the law.
I think a true saint doesn't need to restrain himself. It just comes natural. Being as saint is no act.
Well maybe you are further along in the journey than myself. I am certainly a sinner. I am only saved by grace. I am saved by no actions of my own. If being accountable for my actions is restraint...tie me down! Because, nothing in my spirit says to me that God forces me to sin. When I sin (and yes I still sin) I don't believe God's hand forces me to do so.
I believe the Bible calls us to ownership of our sins. How can one flee from sin if sin is from God? Who can flee from God? Why give a commandment to futility? It's because we haven't been called to futility. We have been called to righteousness. And I stand firm in this belief as supported by scripture.
"...you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent." Revelation 2:3-6
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:19-20
Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. " 2 Timothy 2:22-23
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than have two eyes and be thrown into hell."
Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep Your word. I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are right, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted me. PSALM 119:67, NKJV
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. JAMES 4:7, NKJV
I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. GALATIANS 5:16, NKJV
I also keep in mind this verse when approached with thinking out of line with what is spoken to my spirit.
"Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things..." 2 Timothy 4:2-5
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2010, 08:27:02 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 07:56:51 PM
I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument. Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.
I don't know the answer Shawn. I see a conflict. I see a God that claims to hate sin. But that same God declares in various verses He stacked the deck to make sinning much more likely. "all have sinned"
I don't see him stacking the deck towards sin. Take the garden of eden, let's say there are 100 trees, but there is only one of those trees that Adam cannot eat, I'd say the odds are stacked in favour of the good and acceptable trees.
In Genesis after adam sins there are only a couple of people on the earth and Abel was righteous, but Cain was driven to murder. Why didn't cain just do a good old fashioned fist fight or a wrestling match?
Because he was unrighteous and his works testified that.
QuoteI can only speak for myself. But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors. That is very dangerous territory for me. I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying? I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out. Why produce fruit? Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens. For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.
That line of thinking shows you are a sinner. You have to be restrained...
There are many sins. Most people don't even consider to torture a random person. They don't need to be restrained to not commit that sin.
But for many being "creative" with taxes is almost a duty why it's against the law.
I think a true saint doesn't need to restrain himself. It just comes natural. Being as saint is no act.
Jesus was tempted to sin and even he needed to be restrained. The scripture says he was as sheep to the slaughter and became dumb and opened not his mouth. Apostle Paul needed restraining, God even sent satan's messanger a demon to stop him coming arrogant, the thorn in the flesh.
cast down evil imaginations that exalteth itself.
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 09:06:36 PMWell maybe you are further along in the journey than myself.
I'm sure that isn't true.
QuoteI believe the Bible calls us to ownership of our sins. How can one flee from sin if sin is from God?
I don't know Shawn. I explained my thoughts in the stacking the deck post and the child with the gun examples. So I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying it's not black or white.
Quote from: thinktank on August 25, 2010, 09:30:53 PMJesus was tempted to sin and even he needed to be restrained.
I think you have a different understanding of the word tempted as I do. Yes, Jesus was tempted. We are told of one occasion with Satan, but perhaps He was tempted on daily basis. But that's not what I mean by tempted. Satan was the temptor. The question is if Jesus really had to fight Satan's offer (tempted) or that He never even considered Satan's offer.
Maybe I should have written "feel tempted" instead of "be tempted".
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
--Rom 7
Paul here makes a demarcation between body and mind where the body and mind are warring against each other. He calls his body a 'slave of death.'
[this] "body" [of death]
G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.
He goes on to say he has been rescued from this condition by Jesus.
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
-Rom 8
But this change originates not in the body, but in the mind.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
--Rom 8
It is a matter of what the mind is focused on. A new mind means a new man.
6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God.
--Rom 8
We see that Jesus' battle with Satan only involves the mind. His body never participates in the temptations and every temptation is overcome by scripture.
Does a new mind mean also a new body?
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
--Rom 8
First the mind is renewed, then the body is dead because of sin, then the body itself is raised to a new life. We can be complete in Christ--mind and body-- in this life as well as the next.
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Moved from another thread, off-topic for that thread. Fits here [please forgive any personal offense to vhl];
jabcat; Side note that just sort of struck me. Forgive me, but valuehumanlife and annihilationism just sort of catches my attention. God bless, James.
Shawn;
I'm not trying to create trouble but that last statement was an odd one. So if one believes the Bible supports ED then the person doesn't value human life?
jabcat;
No judgment was made in my statement, and I personally don't think it's an odd observation. I said it struck me. I believe it's something to consider, if one so chooses, and I also provided a link where it's been discussed already in detail. But since you've directly asked, taken to its ultimate conclusion, yes, the terms linked together are a bit ironic - in my personal opinion.
God values human life so much that He said He would drag ALL men to Himself, not annihilate 90+ percent of it.
But that discussion is in other threads, including the link. I made a passing observation. Peace.
Shawn;
That's unfortunate. I think there of those of us who value all human life but don't believe the Bible supports UR. I personally don't believe God asks ED believers for approval of his judgements.
jabcat;
I expressed an opinion, one which I believe is pretty compatible with a UR site. Again, in case it's missed, I'm not judging an individual. I thought I pretty clearly indicated it stuck out TO ME. Terms, concepts. Not people.
Everyone's free to believe as they see. Ultimately, this is what I believe, as I stated earlier. If it offends you, then that's probably inherent in our individual points of view. Forgive me, I'm sorry for being offensive, but I can't back off from what I believe; that God values human life so much that He said He would give His only Son, Who would be lifted up, and then drag ALL men to Himself, not annihilate 90+ percent of them. I tried to say it gently and non-jugmentally. Maybe I failed.
Again, peace and the love of Christ be yours.
Shawn, I understand what you're saying, and if it was meant on a personal level, believe me, I get it. I apologize for it being linked to an individual member. I'm sure I could have done a better job in the original post. You and the other member may be so much more loving and valuing of human life than me personally, that it's not even close. If so, that's a great thing in your walk with the Lord.
But looking at it as concepts apart from any individual, and looking at the terms of the value of human life and annihilation; then considering those terms on another level, in the context of ED vs. UR, again, strikes me as an interesting discussion piece. Consider it my personal opinion, unless God of a surety shows you something else.
So, attempting to be very clear, let me try this again. To no one in particular;
how could we understand that God would be valuing human life if He created it to destroy most of it. Many estimates are that only about 5-10% of humanity have heard and/or responded to the gospel. Which would leave about 90%+ either eternally tormented, or eternally destroyed/dead. OK, so even if it's 50% - do you believe God has a better/different plan than that? If so, why? Or if the above fits your theological understanding, why? How is it explained that God values millions of humans He would either of all the ages torture, or of all the ages kill?
Did He only come for 10%? 20 or 30%? Is He only able to save that many? Or His love all-encompassing, and Jesus will put ALL under His feet and then hand ALL over to the Father - Who will be ALL in ALL?
Disclosure; I believe He loves the world so much that He gave His only Son; that some will believe in Him now and not perish [not take the broad road to destruction - but that most will walk that path and be saved as by fire]; and that He will drag all men to Himself, just as He said He would when He was lifted up [crucified].) He alone is worthy.
Blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2010, 08:17:43 AM
Shawn, I understand what you're saying, and if it was meant on a personal level, believe me, I get it. I apologize for it being linked to an individual member. I'm sure I could have done a better job in the original post. You and the other member may be so much more loving and valuing of human life than me personally, that it's not even close. If so, that's a great thing in your walk with the Lord.
But looking at it as concepts apart from any individual, and looking at the terms of the value of human life and annihilation; then considering those terms on another level, in the context of ED vs. UR, again, strikes me as an interesting discussion piece. Consider it my personal opinion, unless God of a surety shows you something else.
I do get what you are saying and the point you were trying to make. From your posts and PMs you do not seem to be a judgmental person and you seem to love Christ and your fellow man. I don't question those things. I do think we should be careful with our words. It's easy for people to take our words out of context and erode a very healthy environment of learning and debate. While I do not agree with UR...I do enjoy this community. You guys/gals know your Bible and I can learn here. I like the spirit of love I have sensed from many of the members including yourself.
Believe me, I try to be extremely careful with my words. That's one reason I edit my posts so much. But we're not as yet perfect, and sometimes even with the best intentions - or even if things are worded OK - it may push a different button with someone, from their perspective, and it's off to the races.
Anyway, good, thanks. I believe we've just resuscitated this thread. LOL
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2010, 09:21:54 AM
So, attempting to be very clear, let me try this again. To no one in particular;
how could we understand that God would be valuing human life if He created it to destroy most of it. Many estimates are that only about 5-10% of humanity have heard and/or responded to the gospel. Which would leave about 90%+ either eternally tormented, or eternally destroyed/dead. OK, so even if it's 50% - do you believe God has a better/different plan than that? If so, why? Or if the above fits your theological understanding, why? How is it explained that God values millions of humans He would either of all the ages torture, or of all the ages kill?
Did He only come for 10%? 20 or 30%? Is He only able to save that many? Or His love all-encompassing, and Jesus will put ALL under His feet and then hand ALL over to the Father - Who will be ALL in ALL?
Disclosure; I believe He loves the world so much that He gave His only Son; that some will believe in Him now and not perish [not take the broad road to destruction - but that most will walk that path and be saved as by fire]; and that He will drag all men to Himself, just as He said He would when He was lifted up [crucified].) He alone is worthy.
Blessings, James.
James, I totally 100% get the logical reasons behind the belief in UR. It is much easier to reason my way through. But, I think LS shows the vast body of ED supporting quotes which for me are difficult to get around. I have to ask myself, did God only mean the true meaning of the Bible for the learned?
Quite frankly, the way I feel right now, I don't mind if ED is true, it's better than ET, at least with ED, there will be peace as no one will be bickering and nitpicking all the time, and the idea of non-existence is far more appealing to me personally, than being forced to live forever anyway
TBH, I'm just not sure that there is a God that values all human life anyway (the evidence seems to indicate otherwise), sorry if this is offensive to anyone, I'm just stating how I really feel
:cloud9: Shawn, there's a "sticky" on here somewhere about the sovereignty of God, which was "hashed out" before the recommendation that we not discuss it. Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2010, 04:44:20 PM
Scripting is a strong word but....
(Romans 8:20) For, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject––not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope
This verse, and others, do indicate that Father does do certain things that makes it harder not to sin. :2c:
WW, I think you explain this very well, especially the sheep in the huge maze example and this one:
Quote
a] Man fails -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
b] Man is imperfect -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
c] Man is imperfect -> According to plan -> Design is succesful -> Perfect designer.
I pick option 'c'.
Me too!
If there were no sinners, God's plan would not be manifest, therefore us being sinners was part of His plan. He intended us to be sinners.
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 07:56:51 PM
I can only speak for myself. But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors. That is very dangerous territory for me. I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying? I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out. Why produce fruit? Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens. For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.
For those above this kind of thinking then maybe this post isn't for you. But, everything in my spiritual walk has directed me to own my sin...my wrong actions...impure thinking and seek the face of God. It's not to say one should beat themselves with many lashes...it's to say we should own it...repent and turn from our sins. When I struggle I seek relationship even more.
Hi Shawn, it is very true that we do the sinning. We choose to sin. God doesn't have to "force us to sin". We do it
willingly because we
want to.
But have you considered that while we choose to sin, none of us chose to be sinners? Do you see the difference? We aren't sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. And no one has ever chosen to be a sinner. We are just born that way. Why is that? Like WW says, the deck is stacked. We are all subjected to futility and vanity, against our will (Romans 8:20). We have all been shut up in disobedience (Romans 11:32). God has done this to us. He has done it to us for a VERY GOOD REASON!
So does that mean we should just give up and continue to sin as we like? No. Will God force our hand? In a sense no, but in a sense yes. I hope this makes sense. God is not controlling us like some robot. However He is providing all the influence necessary so we will make or not make the choice according to His plan.
If God withholds His spirit, we will do wrong.
If God gives us His spirit, we will do right.
Therefore its up to God (read Romans 9).
Again, God is the one who subjected us to vanity and disobedience - so that He could have mercy and redeem us later and reveal His grace to us. That is His plan. His plan will not fail.
So should we just keep on sinning? Read Romans 6. What Paul is saying is once we realize what sin is, how bad it is, why would we want to keep on sinning? You wouldn't. If you still want to sin (and we all do sometimes), there is still work for God to do in you. And He will finish it. Part of that work that God is doing is us overcoming and showing fruits of the spirit. Eventually God will work in you so you HATE sinning. Then you won't sin anymore - ever. Then you will be righteous.
Its all God's plan. Its not from us. God is going to make us HATE sin. I hope that made sense...
:goodpost:
Love it, clear and simple.
Quote from: legoman on August 30, 2010, 06:13:14 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 25, 2010, 07:56:51 PM
I can only speak for myself. But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors. That is very dangerous territory for me. I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying? I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out. Why produce fruit? Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens. For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.
For those above this kind of thinking then maybe this post isn't for you. But, everything in my spiritual walk has directed me to own my sin...my wrong actions...impure thinking and seek the face of God. It's not to say one should beat themselves with many lashes...it's to say we should own it...repent and turn from our sins. When I struggle I seek relationship even more.
Hi Shawn, it is very true that we do the sinning. We choose to sin. God doesn't have to "force us to sin". We do it willingly because we want to.
But have you considered that while we choose to sin, none of us chose to be sinners? Do you see the difference? We aren't sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. And no one has ever chosen to be a sinner. We are just born that way. Why is that? Like WW says, the deck is stacked. We are all subjected to futility and vanity, against our will (Romans 8:20). We have all been shut up in disobedience (Romans 11:32). God has done this to us. He has done it to us for a VERY GOOD REASON!
So does that mean we should just give up and continue to sin as we like? No. Will God force our hand? In a sense no, but in a sense yes. I hope this makes sense. God is not controlling us like some robot. However He is providing all the influence necessary so we will make or not make the choice according to His plan.
If God withholds His spirit, we will do wrong.
If God gives us His spirit, we will do right.
Therefore its up to God (read Romans 9).
Again, God is the one who subjected us to vanity and disobedience - so that He could have mercy and redeem us later and reveal His grace to us. That is His plan. His plan will not fail.
So should we just keep on sinning? Read Romans 6. What Paul is saying is once we realize what sin is, how bad it is, why would we want to keep on sinning? You wouldn't. If you still want to sin (and we all do sometimes), there is still work for God to do in you. And He will finish it. Part of that work that God is doing is us overcoming and showing fruits of the spirit. Eventually God will work in you so you HATE sinning. Then you won't sin anymore - ever. Then you will be righteous.
Its all God's plan. Its not from us. God is going to make us HATE sin. I hope that made sense...
Yes, that does make a great deal of sense.
Quote from: shawn on August 30, 2010, 09:33:47 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 30, 2010, 09:21:54 AM
So, attempting to be very clear, let me try this again. To no one in particular;
how could we understand that God would be valuing human life if He created it to destroy most of it. Many estimates are that only about 5-10% of humanity have heard and/or responded to the gospel. Which would leave about 90%+ either eternally tormented, or eternally destroyed/dead. OK, so even if it's 50% - do you believe God has a better/different plan than that? If so, why? Or if the above fits your theological understanding, why? How is it explained that God values millions of humans He would either of all the ages torture, or of all the ages kill?
Did He only come for 10%? 20 or 30%? Is He only able to save that many? Or His love all-encompassing, and Jesus will put ALL under His feet and then hand ALL over to the Father - Who will be ALL in ALL?
Disclosure; I believe He loves the world so much that He gave His only Son; that some will believe in Him now and not perish [not take the broad road to destruction - but that most will walk that path and be saved as by fire]; and that He will drag all men to Himself, just as He said He would when He was lifted up [crucified].) He alone is worthy.
Blessings, James.
James, I totally 100% get the logical reasons behind the belief in UR. It is much easier to reason my way through. But, I think LS shows the vast body of ED supporting quotes which for me are difficult to get around. I have to ask myself, did God only mean the true meaning of the Bible for the learned?
I understand, and I realize these are my thoughts and may not resound with you, at least not right now. But I'll put them out there, and maybe they'll take root somewhere along the line with you or someone else - and they may encourage and strengthen me. "My Word will not return unto Me void". At the very least, I'll give a few scriptures. That can't hurt :bigGrin:.
"vast body of ED supporting quotes" - agreed, on the surface, they appear to exist. But IMO, they must be viewed in context of all the places where God speaks of reconciling all and saving all. So I believe they must have a deeper meaning than surface appearance (apollumi, lost sheep, lost coin, "destroyed" prior to renewal, eternal "until", all turned away/all shown mercy, etc.). Which brings us to;
"true meaning of the Bible only to the learned" - My belief; the originals were pure. Man corrupted them with biased (and ignorant) mistranlations. YET, God preserved His Word exactly as He intended, as it ALL works a purpose for all to be turned aside and all shown mercy. We are given an experience of evil, by God - lowered into this realm for a season and for a purpose. Secondly, God preserved His Word with all one needs to know and understand to meet the Son for salvation. Believe, confess, love...it's clear and plain for the simple to understand.
At some point beyond that, yes, I believe it does get deeper and have much hidden. "It's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter". Who are kings? ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]". So I believe there really are deeper things that must a) be revealed and b) taught by those who have been given revelation, as they are used to bring the others in - "We hope in the living God, Savior of all men, especially of those believing. CHARGE THESE THINGS AND TEACH".
So there are
especially believers - kings and priests - who find (are shown) and are then required to share and teach the deeper things of God. All part of His unveiling Plan of the Ages - ultimately summed up and reconciled by God being All in All. My understanding.
Quote from: JabWho are kings? ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]".
When you said that, I realized that the holy city exists now, and it is the congregation of the saints in Christ. As we bring our treasures into it, even on this board, before the saints, we are offering them within the holy city, the one true church. What an honor!
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.--Heb 12
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 New International Version
I believe from this scripture it shows God's desire that none should perish. So He values all people infinitely. To reconcile that with eternal death, we get into the discussion of whether or not the wicked choose their fate.
Quote from: valueallhumanlife2008 on August 31, 2010, 06:54:06 AM
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 New International Version
I believe from this scripture it shows God's desire that none should perish. So He values all people infinitely. To reconcile that with eternal death, we get into the discussion of whether or not the wicked choose their fate.
IMO, valid point and well said :bigGrin:.
It brings this to my mind; "For God has shut them up all together in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all" (Romans 11:32).
God bless.
P.S. As I understand re: "God's desire" - in the Greek, echomai is a "weaker" form of the word will, perhaps more akin to desire or wish; whereas, thelema is the stronger form, perhaps more akin to
intent, and is used when speaking of God's will in regard to saving all. :2c:
"Shawn;
That's unfortunate. I think there of those of us who value all human life but don't believe the Bible supports UR. I personally don't believe God asks ED believers for approval of his judgements."(quote)
How is that possible? How can a human being, value human life yet believe in a God who will have some of His created human beings recieve eternal damnation?
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (YLT)
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again. (WNT)
The teachings of eternal damnation and eternal torment are based only and solely on fear, with the absence of love and the value of human life.
Hi Brother micah. Blessings to you.
Want to make sure and clarify that Shawn, valuehumanlife, LS, and perhaps a few others believe in eternal death or annihilation, rather than eternal torment. They've rejected that, which I personally believe is a great step. I just personally believe there's more steps to go - for all of us.
God bless.
P.S. ah, looking at it again, I see by ED you may have either thought they meant eternal damnation, OR, you may see eternal death still as being damnation. If so, I could sort of see that perspective, as in, I believe Jesus brings life and liberty, not death. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2010, 06:47:22 AM
Quote from: JabWho are kings? ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]".
When you said that, I realized that the holy city exists now, and it is the congregation of the saints in Christ. As we bring our treasures into it, even on this board, before the saints, we are offering them within the holy city, the one true church. What an honor!
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--Heb 12
Talk about deep, you got me digging now, sister. My initial thought was along the lines of, "the kingdom is within you"? But something didn't feel quite right about that. So, I started digging, and realized there is a translational discussion about that, i.e., that the KJV and some others "erroneously" translated it as "within", while others maintain it's more accurately translated as "among you". Either way, I believe you're saying this "bringing others into the kingdom" is happening now - and I agree. I just believe it will continue and become of an even greater magnitude in the next age(s), until all those great OT verses kick in - all families blessed, His (grace/mercy/knowledge) covering the whole earth, ALL the inhabitants rejoicing/praising Him, etc. (paraphrasing). :thumbsup:
Quote from: Jab...and realized there is a translational discussion about that, i.e., that the KJV and some others "erroneously" translated it as "within", while others maintain it's more accurately translated as "among you".
I think it's both. Because although we have to be set apart enough, holy enough, pure, clean, even virginal to participate, the Christ is a corporate body. Jesus is the one who rides the clouds, he comes with clouds, what Paul calls 'clouds of witnesses'--the saints. That is the kingdom.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. --Dan 7
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 31, 2010, 07:03:36 AM
"Shawn;
That's unfortunate. I think there of those of us who value all human life but don't believe the Bible supports UR. I personally don't believe God asks ED believers for approval of his judgements."(quote)
How is that possible? How can a human being, value human life yet believe in a God who will have some of His created human beings recieve eternal damnation?
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (YLT)
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again. (WNT)
The teachings of eternal damnation and eternal torment are based only and solely on fear, with the absence of love and the value of human life.
Again...ED is eternal death not eternal hellfire damnation. ET is eternal torture. I don't label myself with any particular belief system because I just don't know. But, I am 99% sure God doesn't torture his creation for eternity. I can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.
Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?
Quote from: ShawnI can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.
The only problem is though--I'm not quite sure how you kill an immortal being. Because doesn't this mortal have to put on immortality for resurrection?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 31, 2010, 10:40:11 AM
Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?
I have no idea. I do know that you are very well versed on the strengths and weakness of each stance. With that said, much of this is clever debate. I prefer looking at what the bulk of scripture says on a subject to draw conclusions. When I try to reason these kinds of things out I get myself in trouble. I can begin believing things that are not beneficial to me spiritually.
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2010, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: ShawnI can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.
The only problem is though--I'm not quite sure how you kill an immortal being. Because doesn't this mortal have to put on immortality for resurrection?
I thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin. Sin brings death. Why would you have to be immortal to be resurrected?
Is it possible to lie in sheol for thousands of years yet be instantanously judged and perish? In our 4D world...no. In a 10D +1 multibrane...it's speculated that this can indeed happen. See the problem with reasoning these things out...is that we do so through really limited filters formed by our own ignorance. We are to not lean on our own understanding and I believe this is one of the reasons why.
So, all I can do is look at what scripture says to me, and through prayer and petition ask the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to me. What I know, is that I am to own my behaviors (even if the deck has been stacked), I also know that I need to approach life like today could be my last and live accordingly. If your views of God's judgement benefit you spiritually then who am I to change that? While there are things in scripture which are black and white, clear cut and undebateable there are many things that are not. And I must believe that's exactly how God wants it to be.
Where does the concept of "eternal death" come from?
Quote from: shawn on August 31, 2010, 12:02:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 31, 2010, 10:40:11 AM
Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?
I have no idea. I do know that you are very well versed on the strengths and weakness of each stance. With that said, much of this is clever debate. I prefer looking at what the bulk of scripture says on a subject to draw conclusions. When I try to reason these kinds of things out I get myself in trouble. I can begin believing things that are not beneficial to me spiritually.
It was not intended as debate. And even if it was the same applies to UR. Many on this forum believe in some sort after death correction. I think I'm right if I say none of them believe it to be ET type of stuff. But on the subject of duration it is very silent.
Still it would be nice if you or an other ED believer had verses about the time before permanent death. That time might very well be the verses that UR overlooked for it's own purification believes.....
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2010, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: ShawnI can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.
The only problem is though--I'm not quite sure how you kill an immortal being. Because doesn't this mortal have to put on immortality for resurrection?
Not sure but aren't different Greek words used? Lazarus was brought back to life by Jesus. But is Lazarus still alive?
An immortal being can't be killed. Not even Father can do that because that would mean He has to break His promise of immortality. He will never break a promise.
Quote from: shawn on August 31, 2010, 12:21:05 PMI thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin..
That would mean Adam had the power to undo immortality...? Is there any proof Adam was immortal before he sinned? I've read a theory that states Adam was mortal but would never have died if he kept eating from the tree of live.
QuoteSin brings death
Who sins, dies. True.
Does that mean conditional immortality?
Maybe in theory but noone managed to meet the condition. So is that really immortality :dontknow:
QuoteIs it possible to lie in sheol for thousands of years yet be instantanously judged and perish? In our 4D world...no. In a 10D +1 multibrane...it's speculated that this can indeed happen. See the problem with reasoning these things out...is that we do so through really limited filters formed by our own ignorance. We are to not lean on our own understanding and I believe this is one of the reasons why.
Shawn you may like this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3121.0
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 31, 2010, 03:55:24 PMWhere does the concept of "eternal death" come from?
See first post in this thread.
Quote from: ShawnI thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin. Sin brings death. Why would you have to be immortal to be resurrected?
Because Paul tells us that is how it works. The dead already died through Adam. But when they are resurrected to life after death, this mortal now puts on immortality.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--1 Cor 15
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 31, 2010, 04:00:45 PM
Quote from: shawn on August 31, 2010, 12:02:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 31, 2010, 10:40:11 AM
Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?
I have no idea. I do know that you are very well versed on the strengths and weakness of each stance. With that said, much of this is clever debate. I prefer looking at what the bulk of scripture says on a subject to draw conclusions. When I try to reason these kinds of things out I get myself in trouble. I can begin believing things that are not beneficial to me spiritually.
It was not intended as debate. And even if it was the same applies to UR. Many on this forum believe in some sort after death correction. I think I'm right if I say none of them believe it to be ET type of stuff. But on the subject of duration it is very silent.
Still it would be nice if you or an other ED believer had verses about the time before permanent death. That time might very well be the verses that UR overlooked for it's own purification believes.....
I know of no such verses.
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2010, 06:11:40 PM
Quote from: ShawnI thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin. Sin brings death. Why would you have to be immortal to be resurrected?
Because Paul tells us that is how it works. The dead already died through Adam. But when they are resurrected to life after death, this mortal now puts on immortality.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--1 Cor 15
I think it could be argued that this verse is speaking about the resurrection of believers to eternal life.
Quote from: shawnI think it could be argued that this verse is speaking about the resurrection of believers to eternal life.
Believers or not, he's speaking about a principle. Either you are dead, dead, dead --or--
...this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. --1 Cor 15
I don't see how you can have it both ways.
In other words, in order to be resurrected so that you can be judged, you have to, by definition, now be an immortal--otherwise you would stay dead as a doornail.
Our metamorphosis is a return into God. Not back into what we were in Adam in the Garden of Eden—but a returning unto our Father from whom we came. We are begotten of God, born of His Spirit. We have a Heavenly Calling, and we are returning home. "God bringeth man to destruction to say: Return ye children of men!" Ps.90:3. In returning and rest shall ye be saved! Isa. 30:15. Our strength for the heat of the day is in confidence and quietness, waiting upon him. Knowing that he who has begun a good work in us will also finish it, changing us from glory to glory into his very own glorious image. Christ all and in all, bringing us together into that place where God our Father is ALL in ALL—in all his creation. "In the dispensation of The Fulness of Times, God will gather together in One Head, all things in Christ, which are in heaven and which are in earth—even in him!" Eph.1:10. - Dora Van Assen
Quote from: jabcat on September 01, 2010, 06:04:52 AM
Our metamorphosis is a return into God. Not back into what we were in Adam in the Garden of Eden—but a returning unto our Father from whom we came. We are begotten of God, born of His Spirit. We have a Heavenly Calling, and we are returning home. "God bringeth man to destruction to say: Return ye children of men!" Ps.90:3. In returning and rest shall ye be saved! Isa. 30:15. Our strength for the heat of the day is in confidence and quietness, waiting upon him. Knowing that he who has begun a good work in us will also finish it, changing us from glory to glory into his very own glorious image. Christ all and in all, bringing us together into that place where God our Father is ALL in ALL—in all his creation. "In the dispensation of The Fulness of Times, God will gather together in One Head, all things in Christ, which are in heaven and which are in earth—even in him!" Eph.1:10. - Dora Van Assen
When I read this I was thinking.......we are God's masterpiece.
Wow, exactly Shawn. He really does love us! I've got a cool link for you (and others of course :bigGrin:) to read. I'll find it and be back and post it.
Quote from: ShawnWhen I read this I was thinking.......we are God's masterpiece.
Ha!
30then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man [Adam].--Prov 8
Amen, and amen.
Our spirit returns to God Who gave it.
Thomas J. Kissinger is a UR minister of who I post his mailings from time to time. Once he responded to me with, "I really appreciate your comments. That means a lot to me. Gary Amirault's website is very special to me. It was the first one I came across when researching the Greek word Aion. It made me free!!!"
The following link is to one of his mailings - God Takes Good Care of His Artwork. Be blessed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7040.msg79279#msg79279
Quote from: Molly on August 31, 2010, 06:47:22 AM
Quote from: JabWho are kings? ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]".
When you said that, I realized that the holy city exists now, and it is the congregation of the saints in Christ. As we bring our treasures into it, even on this board, before the saints, we are offering them within the holy city, the one true church. What an honor!
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--Heb 12
:cloud9: :bgdance: :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on August 13, 2010, 06:46:44 AM
I'm not going to attempt to tackle all of this in detail. Others will join in. I'll just present these thoughts as sort of prompts while looking at LS' posts more closely.
I believe, almost without exception, that threatenings in the Old Testament were of a temporal, earthly nature - not having to do with eternal destiny.
Things described as "eternal" in the Old Testament, at least often seem to be talking in terms of "until it had served its purpose". The "eternal" fire burning at the altar, is no longer burning. The "eternal" fire at the gate of Jerusalem is no longer burning. Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever", etc.
Destroyed is from apollumi. There are whole studies on that, but basically that things can be lost, destroyed, but there still be redemption. Things not of God destroyed, yet the man "saved as by fire". Maybe some such as Hitler won't have much if anything left, other than the spirit God gave them - which returns to God upon death. (See WW's thread about the lost sheep and lost coin - it's the same word - apollumi.)
Accurate translation is also vital. Some translations are hopelessly confusing with their uses of forever, ever, eternal, hell, etc. (I don't know that I've ever seen "pool of fire".) :dontknow:
Some things to consider just as a piece of the whole. James.
Very Well said. :thumbsup:
A great awakening!
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 03, 2010, 05:02:28 AM
Very Well said. :thumbsup:
Thanks Brother. :bigGrin:. Blessings.
:cloud9: Amen....good word....the tribulation of the flesh lasts just as long as it's necessary to reveal Christ, and not a second longer..... :winkgrin: