Eternal Destruction

[Molly]

Ok, let me put it another way--

Calvin was not an idiot.  He knew what he was reading was true.  [He was one of the first to get the whole text in his hands, which had been hoarded by the church].  And, certainly, a superficial reading of it looks just like Calvin described.

But, I think that as the Jews were to carry the law into the world in their age, the Christians are to carry grace into the world in this age.  It doesn't necessarily mean that is the end of the story in either case.


Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.

[WhiteWings]

So the final question. Jesus is:
1] UR Shepherd that brings all sheep in the fold?
2] Calvinist Shepherd  that only looks at His own flock?

It would have to be 3)all of the above, but in different ages.

In the OT, didn't it look like just the Jews would be saved for a while there?

Jews claim all are saved. "Hell" last 12 months max.
So the Jews knew from the OT they would be saved OR they peeked in the NT.....

[Molly]

Jews claim all are saved. "Hell" last 12 months max.

Do you mean that Jews claim all Jews are saved?   Do they claim non Jews are all saved, too?

And, where does the 12 months come from?  Is that somewhere in the Old Testament? Or is this the Talmud? Are you talkiing about current day Jews or OT Jews?

[WhiteWings]

Do you mean that Jews claim all Jews are saved?

Yes.

Do they claim non Jews are all saved, too?

Yes.

And, where does the 12 months come from?  Is that somewhere in the Old Testament? Or is this the Talmud?

I never have been to figure out were they found that idea. It's even more detailed by saying that for most it's 3 months max. It's something all Jewish scholars seem to agree on. From orthodox to liberal to Messanic.

Are you talkiing about current day Jews or OT Jews?

That I don't know. Must be more recent than Jesus because the Saduceans didn't belive i ressurection for all.(?)

[WhiteWings]

Calvin was not an idiot.  He knew what he was reading was true.  [He was one of the first to get the whole text in his hands, which had been hoarded by the church].  And, certainly, a superficial reading of it looks just like Calvin described.

The church would never handed over the text to 'just somebody'. My guess is that Calvin was already sufficiently indocttrinated and parroting church views. Plus remember that at that time nobody knew the meaning of many Greek words.

[Molly]

The church would never handed over the text to 'just somebody'. My guess is that Calvin was already sufficiently indocttrinated and parroting church views. Plus remember that at that time nobody knew the meaning of many Greek words.

Calvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible.  I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.

Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.

I never have been to figure out were they found that idea. It's even more detailed by saying that for most it's 3 months max. It's something all Jewish scholars seem to agree on. From orthodox to liberal to Messanic.

It sounds like a little creative writing to me.

That I don't know. Must be more recent than Jesus because the Saduceans didn't belive i ressurection for all.(?)

Do you have any links to this universal salvation belief of the Jews?  Or do you just know this from talking to people?

Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.  If anything, Christianity seems to me like it would be more inclusive than Judaism, since anyone can be saved if they accept Christ, rather than needing a particular cultural and ethnic heritage.  So this surprises me and is not what I would expect.  So I'm wondering if there is any written evidence of this.

[WhiteWings]

I never have been to figure out were they found that idea. It's even more detailed by saying that for most it's 3 months max. It's something all Jewish scholars seem to agree on. From orthodox to liberal to Messanic.

It sounds like a little creative writing to me.

Maybe. Maybe not...

Do you have any links to this universal salvation belief of the Jews?  Or do you just know this from talking to people?

Just from guys who call themselfs Rabbi.....  Below some of 'their' answers. They only speak about sinnners and wicked. Not in terms of Jews and none Jews. My guess is that all none Jews are part of the wicked in their view. Many Jewish sites have a "ask the Rabbi" so we could ask.



http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell.htm


August 2004
We have also demonstrated from the Tanach
and the Sages that the forgiveness of sin can be
attained with or without the Temple standing, and
without a blood sacrifice.ÊÊ
There is much to be said about the creation and
greatness of repentance. I will only quote a
couple of sources from the Sages of Israel:
"Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the
eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven
things were created before the world was
created, and these are they: The Torah,
repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the
Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the
Messiah".[18]
Ê
"It was taught: R Meir used to say, Great is
repentance, for on account of an individual who
repents, (does not need to die)[19] the sins of all
the world are forgiven, as it is said: I will heal
their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine
anger is turned away from him. 'From them' it is
not said, but 'from him."[20] [21]Ê

December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.

August 2008
Question: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing
this space to address Jewish matters. My
question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which
Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my
understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding
any concept), according to some
biblical references, more specifically, Job and
Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an
underground abyss where all souls -whether good
or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden
(heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all
souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and
wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and
evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is
another topic that has different interpretations. So,
are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the
resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a
physical form), will there be death again?

---
Response: Dear Carolina, These are weighty
and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing
that the concept of a soul entering a "place",
whether under or above ground, is not a part of
Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object
that can travel in space or be situated in a specific
location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul
'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric,
not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the
grave, the final resting place of the physical body.
Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a
metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues
after the separation of the soul from the body. This
state can only be achieved by an individual who
has perfected his or her soul through the acquisition
of knowledge and positive character traits and the
performance of good deeds. Because the soul has
developed a spiritual, transcendent aspect, it is able
to survive physical death and partake of the greatest
reward imaginable - namely, an unadulterated and
fully satisfying perception of Hashem's wisdom.
It is important to remember that, since we exist in
a physical body during this lifetime and all of our
knowledge is based upon our experiences of the
material world, we cannot possibly imagine what it
would be like to exist metaphysically. This is the
reason why our Sages are compelled to employ
metaphor and analogy when speaking about these
profound matters. Unfortunately, because we are
generally much more comfortable with concrete
imagery than abstract ideas, many people latch
onto the metaphoric depictions of the rabbis as if
they are literal facts. Thus, they develop sensual
concepts of the World to Come that are of necessity
inaccurate. We must accept the reality that the true
nature of the Afterlife is not something that we
have the ability to comprehend during our sojourn
on this Earth.
Wicked people whose entire existence in this
world revolves around material gain and bodily
pleasure have not actualized the metaphysical
dimension of their souls. As a result, their souls
perish with their bodies at the conclusion of their
physical lives. They suffer the ultimate punishment
- the loss of the opportunity to experience the
pleasure of true knowledge and understanding.
In the Messianic era, the righteous will be revived
from the dead and will participate in the establishment
of a utopian society that will be fully aligned
with God's wisdom. Their resurrection will also
afford these great men and women the benefit of
living in an enlightened world community -
something they did not have the opportunity to do
before their deaths. In the end, though, the laws of
nature will continue to reign, and the righteous -
like all other mortals - will eventually pass away
once again, allowing their souls to return to a
blessed state of metaphysical existence for eternity.
I would like to add two important points. The first
point is that our service of Hashem in this world is
inherently rewarding and fulfilling. Any additional
reward is really superfluous to the wise person who
enjoys truth and justice for their own sake.
Similarly, living a materialistic, unenlightened life
is its own punishment. Such a lifestyle frustrates
human beings, denying them the actualization of
their intellectual and spiritual potential while
offering them an endless array of unsatisfying
substitutes that fail to address their uniquely human
needs.
Those who believe that the ultimate reward for
study and righteousness is endless physical
pleasure necessarily maintain that the pleasures of
the body are the ultimate good for human beings,
and that living wisely is a means to the end of
material self-indulgence. Similarly, the belief in
eternal physical torment for the wicked stems from
the assumption that bodily suffering is worse than
the pain of living without wisdom. Both of these
suppositions are contrary to the core teachings of
Judaism. The devoted Jew does not need the
promise of extrinsic reward nor the threat of extrinsic
punishment to entice him or her to live by the
dictates of the Torah. Pleasures and pains of the
body are simply incomparable to the contentment
the soul derives from its pursuit of knowledge and
virtue. By way of analogy, imagine that a wealthy
individual offered you one million dollars cash,
with no strings attached. Would you ask "well,
what's in it for me? What's my reward for accepting
the money?" Any additional reward would pale
by comparison to the receipt of the funds
themselves. In the same way, wisdom is its own
reward, and anyone who asks "what's in it for me"
has not yet experienced its beauty - a beauty so rich
and overflowing that it causes all temporal enjoyments
to seem base and worthless by comparison.
The second point I'd like to emphasize is that the
common notion of "Divine Punishment" is derived
from the theologies of other popular religions, and
not from the teachings of the Torah. In these
religions, God is portrayed as an angry humanlike
being who cannot tolerate the disregard with which
human beings treat Him and His laws. His thirst for
vengeance is so all-consuming that the only way
He can quell his rage is by condemning sinners to
everlasting torment in Hell. This idea is, of course,
based upon the assumption that God takes pleasure
in our morality and religiosity and that He becomes
frustrated and aggressive when we fail to placate
Him with our worship. Advocates of this notion
seem to maintain that God finds comfort in
torturing violators of His commandments for all
eternity.
By contrast, the Jewish view is that righteousness
and wickedness - as well as reward and
punishment - are exclusively for human benefit.
God does not become 'angry' when we sin, nor
does our goodness provide Him any satisfaction.
When we make the right choices, then God may
assist us in furthering our development so that we
more fully actualize the potential for genuine
happiness that He implanted within us - not
because He needs us to continue, but because it is
His will to provide the best for His creatures.
At the same time, when we choose to act immorally,
we do a disservice to ourselves alone. God, in
His infinite mercy, may punish us to correct us and
steer us back onto the proper path, but not because
He takes some sinister, vengeful pleasure in our
suffering. We can see this from the fact that God
only intervenes to punish individuals whom He
knows are sufficiently close to Him to respond
appropriately to censure, as King Solomon wrote,
"The ones God loves, He rebukes." If a person is
so far from God that there is no hope that he will
repent as a result of Divinely imposed punishments,
then God will not implement them.
Hashem does not mete out consequences to make
us suffer for our sins; His purpose in chastising
human beings is to educate and uplift those of us
who are at least potentially receptive to His
message.
From this standpoint, it is clear why subjecting
human souls to everlasting torment in the Hereafter
would be meaningless. Once our lives are over,
all hope of repentance is lost - so what use would
punishment serve after death? Only a religion that
views God in human terms - as a sadistic fatherfigure
who is insatiably angry with his children
and needs to 'vent' - could possibly embrace such
a concept.
I should mention that there are some Rabbis,
such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the
concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood
here as a process of purification of the soul -
metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it
goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final
state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the
material world that serve as obstacles to our
spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering
with the proper development of our souls. The idea
of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of
self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death -
revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the
realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may
enable a person to become freed from some of
these limitations and thus to enjoy a more
complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in
the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of
these ideas, I would encourage you to read
Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek", which can
be purchased in English translation from Moznaim
Publishers (It appears as an appendix in the
volume of the Rambam series entitled "Pirkei
Avot").
You may write Rabbi Maroof at his blog:
http://askrabbimaroof.blogspot.com

[WhiteWings]

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/s019.htm

JEWISH VIEWS OF GEHENNA

Gehenna is the name given by Jews to Hell. Rev. H. N. Adler, a Jewish Rabbi, says: "They do not teach endless retributive suffering. They hold that it is not conceivable that a God of mercy and justice would ordain infinite punishment for finite wrong-doing." Dr. Dentsch declares: "There is not a word in the Talmud that lends any support to that damnable dogma of endless torment." Dr. Dewes in his "Plea for Rational Translation," says that Gehenna is alluded to four or five times in the Mishna, thus: "The judgment of Gehenna is for twelve months;" "Gehenna is a day in which the impious shall be burnt." Bartolocci declares that "the Jews did not believe in a material fire, and thought that such fire as they did believe in would one day be put out." Rabbi Akiba, "the second Moses," said: "The duration of the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months." Adyoth 3: 10. some rabbis said Gehenna only lasted from Passover to Pentecost. This was the prevalent conception. (Abridged from Excursus 5, in Canon Farrar's "Eternal Hope." He gives in a note these testimonies to prove that the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, did not regard Gehenna as of endless duration). Asarath Maamaroth, f. 35, 1: "There will hereafter be no Gehenna." Jalkuth Shimoni, f. 46, 1: "Gabriel and Michael will open the eight thousand gates of Gehenna, and let out Israelites and righteous Gentiles." A passage in Othoth, (attributed to R. Akiba) declares that Gabriel and Michael will open the forty thousand gates of Gehenna, and set free the damned, and in Emek Hammelech, f. 138, 4, we read: "The wicked stay in Gehenna till the resurrection, and then the Messiah, passing through it redeems them." See Stephelius' Rabbinical Literature.

(The Bible Hell, J.W. Hanson, D.D., 1888)

http://www.thechristianrabbi.org/resurrection.htm -> different tone. Not a real rabbi. aion/forever

http://www.askmoses.com/en/index.html
http://www.chabad.org/asktherabbi/default_cdo/jewish/Ask-the-Rabbi.htm
http://www.asktherabbi.org/
http://www.aish.com/atr/
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/
etc

[Shadow]

People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)

Calvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible.  I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.

Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.

Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.

The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as

We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message

[shawn]

People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)

Calvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible.  I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.

Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.

Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.

The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as

We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message

I have to agree Shadow.  I grew up engulfed in Calvanist teachings.  I accepted their concept of predestination.  But, I have to say after actually examining the concept it makes no sense.

So, what I'm supposed to believe is we are to preach the gospel to the whole world.  But, God has already picked who would turn and who would burn?  Then why bother?  We can't change anything by preaching either way.  God's will be done even if we sit on our hands.  What is the purpose?  Then they would have me believe God tortures these individuals that never had a chance for eternity?  Come on.  I'm not sure how anyone could accept or believe such a concept.  It must seem absolutely barbaric and counterintuitive to 90% of mankind.  I'm starting to wonder why it doesn't to the other 10%.  Bad doctrine doesn't make you seperate from the world it just makes you in error.

[Molly]

People are quick to say why preach the gospel if all are saved already (both ETers and atheists alike)

Calvin was among the group [Protestant reformation] that was first translating the Bible into English. in this case, leading to the Geneva Bible.  I was thinking more in terms of the concepts of predestination and election, which concepts have survived all translations.

Predestination combined with election does make it sound on the surface like God is picking and choosing some and rejecting others--from birth.

Given that the Jews believe they are God's chosen people [as do the Christians, also] and both concepts are Biblical, the temptation remains of a special status to those chosen, and that only those chosen will be saved.

The same could be said if calvinism were true, what's the point of preaching the gospel since everything is set in stone anyway.........unless the charlatans preaching a dishonest message wouldn't be able to line their pockets, I mean how full would churches be if calvinists preached an honest message according to their beliefs such as

We are here to pronounce a message from God but only those whom God loves and has chosen will accept it, lets be clear here, God does not love all people, but there may be a fortunate person amongst you that he has chosen, therefore we bring you this message

I have to agree Shadow.  I grew up engulfed in Calvanist teachings.  I accepted their concept of predestination.  But, I have to say after actually examining the concept it makes no sense.

So, what I'm supposed to believe is we are to preach the gospel to the whole world.  But, God has already picked who would turn and who would burn?  Then why bother?  We can't change anything by preaching either way.  God's will be done even if we sit on our hands.  What is the purpose?  Then they would have me believe God tortures these individuals that never had a chance for eternity?  Come on.  I'm not sure how anyone could accept or believe such a concept.  It must seem absolutely barbaric and counterintuitive to 90% of mankind.  I'm starting to wonder why it doesn't to the other 10%.  Bad doctrine doesn't make you seperate from the world it just makes you in error.

But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


And election?


Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)



If so, then what might it mean?  Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.

[thinktank]

But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


And election?


Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)



If so, then what might it mean?  Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.


Molly


To me these scriptures mean that God before the foundation of the world predestined that we would be made whole in Christ despite our rebellion. So instead of "us" being certain indoviduals, the word "us" means the world, humanity. For God calls all people to himself, not a few, and he calls all people to repent in this age, I don't care what anyone says the scriptures says that God is seeking all people in this age, regardless of what happens in some future age and all people heed the call or reject the call, depending on whether they have been given the message of salvation in a proper manner.

[Shadow]

But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


And election?


Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)



If so, then what might it mean?  Because we might not agree how Calvin explained these passages, but we cannot ignore their existence.

Yes I agree that they are there, plus there are many others, there is more scriptural support for predestination than free will

What I have a problem with is the dishonesty of preachers that say everyone has an equal chance, then BLAMES those who have not been chosen, by saying things like people CHOOSE to go to hell etc etc

*************************

But TBH the arguments for freewill and predestination are actually irrelevant anyway, as everything is set in stone anyway...the outcome is the same....we are just puppets on a string going through the motions, the only difference is that arminians shift the blame onto mankind, whereas calvinists acknowledge that it was planned that way

I personally prefer a calvinist that doesn't pussyfoot around and comes right out and say God hates most of mankind to an arminian that says "God loves you so much that he has blessed you with freewill, so that if you don't love him back he will honor your decision (by torturing you in some firepit)

[Molly]

...and comes right out and say God hates most of mankind

whoa.  I'm not sure how one could draw that conclusion because we still haven't answered the question--those who are predestined are predestined for what?

Could we try to answer that question first?  Is it possible that this is the age of the firstfruits the way the Old Testament recorded the age of the Law?

Do you think in the Old Testament, at that time,  God hated everyone but the Jews?


Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

[Molly]

For God calls all people to himself, not a few, and he calls all people to repent in this age, I don't care what anyone says the scriptures says that God is seeking all people in this age, regardless of what happens in some future age and all people heed the call or reject the call, depending on whether they have been given the message of salvation in a proper manner.

He might be calling all, but what are his expectations in light of the fact that he himself admits [and with prophecy] that he has blinded the eyes of some and blocked their ears?


John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Shadow]

...and comes right out and say God hates most of mankind

whoa.  I'm not sure how one could draw that conclusion because we still haven't answered the question--those who are predestined are predestined for what?

Could we try to answer that question first?  Is it possible that this is the age of the firstfruits the way the Old Testament recorded the age of the Law?

Do you think in the Old Testament, at that time,  God hated everyone but the Jews?


Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

The church I went to believed so, yes....oh they sugarcoated it...but they said that gentiles had no chance under the old covenant, thereby, implying they went to hell...they also believe that after the rapture, gentiles can no longer be saved, and this was an arminian church

I no longer believe in a rapture...

I once went to a councilor and she told me that they only spread the gospel because they don't know who God has chosen to be saved, it was then for the first time that I realized just how dishonest churches can be

I thought about it long and hard and realized that most churches are based on a foundation of pure lies and deception, and that this life is a cruel farce and total sham, if this is what they truly believe

How utterly cruel and deceptive it is to stand up in the front of a pulpit each and every week proclaiming that Jesus loves everyone, when it may not be true

***********************************

Can you begin to see why people are against God, and why so many become atheists (or non-christians) when faced with Calvinist theology, they figure they are screwed anyway, so why not eat drink and be merry, since you are not one of the chosen anyway, you may as well enjoy yourself while you can

If you read calvinist logic they love to quote romans, chapter 9 particularly


Rom 9:10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

******************************************

If you put ET or ED (though ED at least reflects a far more merciful God, albeit still not an all loving one, if pushed to the wire I could still accept an ED God, but NEVER an ET God) in the equation what other conclusion can people come to, life doesn't reflect an all loving God, at least not in this age, eg problem of evil, pestilence and suffering, it's all fair and well to blame satan...but who created satan KNOWING what the outcome would be

The amazing thing to me, is that Calvinists actually EXPECT people to love and worship their God, when they claim (either directly/indirectly) that he HATES most of them anyway

[Molly]

The church I went to believed so, yes....oh they sugarcoated it...but they said that gentiles had no chance under the old covenant, thereby, implying they went to hell...they also believe that after the rapture, gentiles can no longer be saved, and this was an arminian church

Well, that's interesting but I'm more interested in what conclusions you can come to yourself because you can read the scriptures as well as anyone.

So let's look at how God treats 'strangers' [that is non Jews] in the Old Testament for a minute--

Why would God command the good treatment, charity for, and even the love of strangers if he so abhored them?


Leviticus 19:10
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.


Deuteronomy 10:19
Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.


Isn't this the same as the great commandment given by Jesus?


Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

[jabcat]

Molly, from my view, you're making some great posts in this thread.  Amen.

My understanding since coming to UR is, God does call all.  All are predestined.  Some just join Him now, called out and predestined in this lifetime - the rest later.  Calvin missed the UR part.

[jabcat]

Actually, maybe the ecclesia are pre-destined, while the rest (through the broad road) are destined.    :thinking:

[Molly]

Actually, maybe the ecclesia are pre-destined, while the rest (through the broad road) are destined.    :thinking:

Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.



Well, he did buy the whole field to get the treasure.



Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:



1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

[jabcat]

Amen, great point on buying the whole field.  I'd never thought of that.   :thumbsup:

Although I see many ultimate reconciliation scriptures, I also see the "priesthood", the "set aside", i.e., IMO the predestined - the pecular people/especially believers.   IMO, it's all a part of God's plan, including the Good Shephard seeking that one lost sheep and bringing in the "other sheep" into the one fold. (Jn. 10:16)  Hallelujah.  What a Savior!

[Molly]

[a] "peculiar" [people]

G4047
περιποίησις
peripoiēsis
per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
From G4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension preservation: - obtain (-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.


Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

[Shadow]

Well, that's interesting but I'm more interested in what conclusions you can come to yourself because you can read the scriptures as well as anyone.

Yes indeed I can, however, I've seen other scriptures where God tells his followers to wipe out entire villages etc (verses that when I went to church, they avoided like the plague) as well as others that paint a ghastly picture that I won't address here, so I'm confused to say the least, hopefully that confusion will disappear with the passage of time

One thing I do know, however, is that I don't identify with either the fundamentalist christian or fundamentalist atheist mindset

I seem to identify mostly with URers more than anyone else

[WhiteWings]

But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?

I think he was right. I also think the standard 5%=elect is correct. (or even to high)
What I disagree with is: What is the elect? What is their destiny and the destiny of the non-elect?
It's not about heaven or hell.

[Molly]

But could you guys agree that Calvin was right about predestination?

I think he was right. I also think the standard 5%=elect is correct. (or even to high)
What I disagree with is: What is the elect? What is their destiny and the destiny of the non-elect?
It's not about heaven or hell.

Exactly, although you can see why Calvin might have thought that.

In particular, you don't need priests unless there are people who are not priests [at least at the moment] to minister to.  A priest stands in the gap between man and God.

Where did you get that number of 5 percent? lol