Does anyone know of some Universalist mystics, or visionaries

[Cardinal]

If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

:cloud9: Pause for thought....if you look at that "fractionally", man being SPIRIT, soul and body, could the 1/3 part that fell, be the spirit part??? You know we have to have had a different sort of body, just as Adam did before the fall, so I could see the spirit fall, since the spirit was in union with Father until then, causing everything else to be "lowered" as well, beginning with that. Blessings...

[Nathan]

Jeeze Card, I got pushed around a little today with the idea I spiritualize things too much and yet you keep posting stuff I see on that spiritual side as well.  Except, the third of messengers (angels) that I see falling is the dimension of the flesh.  Spirit may get buried by flesh in the order of things, but I don't know if it's actually "fallen".  But I do see the same principle here.

[thinktank]

Jeeze Card, I got pushed around a little today with the idea I spiritualize things too much and yet you keep posting stuff I see on that spiritual side as well.  Except, the third of messengers (angels) that I see falling is the dimension of the flesh.  Spirit may get buried by flesh in the order of things, but I don't know if it's actually "fallen".  But I do see the same principle here.

dahh Card had to spoil things for us, card we are trying to get nathan on a spiritual diet  :laughing7:
his belly has excess water  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

:cloud9: Pause for thought....if you look at that "fractionally", man being SPIRIT, soul and body, could the 1/3 part that fell, be the spirit part??? You know we have to have had a different sort of body, just as Adam did before the fall, so I could see the spirit fall, since the spirit was in union with Father until then, causing everything else to be "lowered" as well, beginning with that. Blessings...

Lemme guess lowered=slowed down  :winkgrin:

[thinktank]

Having a knack means you are possesed  :laughing7:

Knack is the name of an ancient demon.
If you allowed him to posses you he gave you a special ability in return.
If you have a knack for singing it means demon Knack gave you a good voice as a gift.

So people all pray to cast out TT's Knack  :pointlaugh:

But if Satan cast out satan how will his kingdom stand?

[Cardinal]

Jeeze Card, I got pushed around a little today with the idea I spiritualize things too much and yet you keep posting stuff I see on that spiritual side as well.  Except, the third of messengers (angels) that I see falling is the dimension of the flesh.  Spirit may get buried by flesh in the order of things, but I don't know if it's actually "fallen".  But I do see the same principle here.

:cloud9: I can't see it as the flesh being the FIRST fallen thing, though, because I think the spirit "being" part of us is what was first, as in we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, or pre-Adam, as sons of God.

Jesus being made, A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, to me, means we were made (in this realm) a little lower than the angels. He was referred to as the angel of the Lord in the OT, so if we were one with Him from the foundation = BEFORE He was made a little lower than the angels......?

Also, I don't have the words in place yet to explain what I'm seeing, but since it's the spirit salvation that happens first (and then the rest of the triune being), then what "state" was it in? See what I'm saying???

[WhiteWings]

Having a knack means you are possesed  :laughing7:

Knack is the name of an ancient demon.
If you allowed him to posses you he gave you a special ability in return.
If you have a knack for singing it means demon Knack gave you a good voice as a gift.

So people all pray to cast out TT's Knack  :pointlaugh:

But if Satan cast out satan how will his kingdom stand?

If a frog is not a hamster, then why elephants are not yellow?

[Cardinal]

If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

:cloud9: Pause for thought....if you look at that "fractionally", man being SPIRIT, soul and body, could the 1/3 part that fell, be the spirit part??? You know we have to have had a different sort of body, just as Adam did before the fall, so I could see the spirit fall, since the spirit was in union with Father until then, causing everything else to be "lowered" as well, beginning with that. Blessings...

Lemme guess lowered=slowed down  :winkgrin:

:cloud9: You got it  :thumbsup:.....the Spirit QUICKENS us, BECAUSE we have been slowed down.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus being made, A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, to me, means we were made (in this realm) a little lower than the angels.

Or... we are angels and and Jesus was lower than us because He was the suffering servant.
(Servants are lower by defenition.)

[Cardinal]

If a frog is not a hamster, then why elephants are not yellow?

:cloud9: ??? WW, as your friend, I feel is my duty to take the "keys" to your computer at this point, as you clearly are in no condition to "drive" home...... :Party: :LH:

[thinktank]

Jesus being made, A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, to me, means we were made (in this realm) a little lower than the angels.

Or... we are angels and and Jesus was lower than us because He was the suffering servant.
(Servants are lower by defenition.)

We will become as angels, all thanks to Jesus Christ. This mortal must put on immortality.

The first man Adam was of the earth, but the second man is the lord from heaven.

I think were barking up the wrong tree here, thinking we are angels now or in the past. Nice thought though.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, we will, and consider this with your statement......we are being RESTORED to what we WERE.

[WhiteWings]

If a frog is not a hamster, then why elephants are not yellow?

:cloud9: ??? WW, as your friend, I feel is my duty to take the "keys" to your computer at this point, as you clearly are in no condition to "drive" home...... :Party: :LH:

I was just helping TT to avoid the post  :icon_jokercolor:

Shutting down my hard drive in a mo :winkgrin:

[Molly]

I don't think we are the fallen angels because--

1)that would mean this world is hell, which maybe I could go along with lol, but--

2)Jesus will share his throne with us, we are co-inheritors with Christ, and what angel did he ever call a son?

3)Eve was deceived but Adam was not.  Adam knew he would not be like God and that he would die.  He also knew that if he stayed in the garden and obeyed God's command, he would never die.  That's what it means to be not deceived.  Therefore--

4)Adam did not believe the claims of the serpent, and did what he did for other reasons of his own.

5) This idea of 'sons of God' in the Old Testament brings up the issue of the divine council which gives a whole new dimension to the Bible that has been lost.   If the 'fallen angels' were originally members of the Divine Council [who are really some type of spiritual son, not angel] that rebelled against God and decided to take man down in the process, we now have a drama going on that makes sense of a lot of passages that don't otherwise make sense.

Here's the divine council described by Job--

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1

6) One could argue that this drama with the sons of God took place before the creation of Adam [were they the cause of the earth becoming without form and void?], and that God created Adam as an eventual replacement for those who left their first estate, which would explain why the Serpent was so motivated to murder Adam from the beginning.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--John 1

7) [postulate:--]  I think a lot of this information has been lost to the church as the Bible has been purposely de-mystified by church leaders, making the Bible all about man instead of about a war in the heavenlies which intricately involves us.  But, they could not take the passages out of the Bible that pointed to it.  Our confusion about these passages arises out of missing key information and erroneous teaching.

[peacemaker]

You can chain me.
You can torture me.
You can even destroy this body.
But you will never imprison me again, for it is finished.

Satan, as lightning falls from heaven. The surrendering of all limiting beliefs, must give way to the Spirit of Truth for the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn that shines brighter and brighter, until the full day. It leads to life above to the wise; departing from the grave, beneath:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer [morning star], son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground as in man, the first Adam?

"We are chained in darkness, until the day of our judgment in righteousness."

Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding of the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world – the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition or temperament of the soul. This mark extends deep down from the surface, yet is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to humanity when in opposition to the Spirit, as:

"The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."

But the Spirit liberates all those enslaved, each in their own time.

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Let me play devil's advocate for a few, while we hash this out. What angel did He ever call a son? The Angel of the Lord.....perhaps our understanding of angels has been tainted by the carnal mind as well?

It would stand to reason, since I don't think much of anything that we can comprehend with our carnal minds ALONE from the letter understanding does not have a deeper hidden meaning, or a deeper understanding, at the very least. After all, all of it including creation, is made after a spiritual pattern in the heavenlies.  

If Satan was an angel and he came in with the sons, one of several things is going on here.

A) the sons are angels too
B) Satan is a son
C) both A and B are true
D) Satan is a part of the sons


PS. @ Molly.....I agree with your number "7" postulate....

[Molly]

Except the linguist [expert on ancient Hebrew] tells us that 'satan' in the Old Testament is only ever used as a title [i.e. 'the prosecutor'].  So different beings can take that role.

This would mean there are ZERO verses in the OT that have a personal name "satan", and ZERO references to Satan as a cosmic evil entity as in the NT.

--Michael Heiser


That quote I used about the angels comes from this verse--


Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


I know the JW think Jesus is an angel [michael, actually], and this verse shows he is not.  He is the Son of God.

So there is a difference between sons and angels, [although I do still think that angels can also refer to men on some occasions--pastors, prophets, and priests per the Hebrew definition.]

[peacemaker]

"Mystification is an element within the church that continues to mislead; a fundamental principle."

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Molly....I hear you, I do.....but there is something more that has not been seen. Too many loose threads need tying up, at least for me. And I have no idea what the JW's believe.......Blessings....

[Molly]

Just so we know what we are talking about--

"mystical"

1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.
5. Unintelligible; cryptic.


There are a lot of mystical aspects to our Bible that the modern church rarely touches.  For instance, when I first read about the transfiguration of Christ, I was blown away because no church or pastor had ever mentioned it.  Other examples, include the apostles transporting themselves in time and space, e.g. Philip after he baptizes the eunuch.  This is what I mean by de-mystification--they are removing parts of the Bible that are too mystical for them to deal with.


And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more: but he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
--Acts 8

'caught away'  --that's the 'rapture' verb, by the way, --"harpazo."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's VERY true Molly.....He is busy restoring what was lost in that category, too, in this hour.

Did you ever think it strange in Revelation He tells John to write letters to the ANGELS of the 7 churches? Letters clearly written to men, who He is telling to "shape up" basically.

[peacemaker]

And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more: but he went on his way rejoicing. Philip was found at Azotus: passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

The apostles were transporting themselves in time and space?

I do not believe that is what this verse is implying:

"And the eunuch saw him no more, as he went on his way; rejoicing."

[Molly]

Here's what I call the 'dick and jane bible' lol--much clearer to read.


36-37As they traveled along the road, they came to some water. The official said, "Look! Here is water! Why shouldn't I be baptized?" 38 He gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the official went down into the water. Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away. The official did not see him again. He went on his way full of joy. 40 Philip was seen next at Azotus. From there he traveled all around. He preached the good news in all the towns. Finally he arrived in Caesarea.

--Acts 8


Philip disappears in front of the eunuch's eyes and reappears in Azotus.  The eunuch goes on his way rejoicing.  I bet.  That was some baptism.

Here's another one--



39 And when they were come up of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched (up) Philip, and the gelding saw him no more; and he went in his way joying.

   40 And Philip was found in Azotus; and he passed forth, and preached to all cities [and he passing forth, evangelized to all cities], till he came to Caesarea.

--[Wycliffe]



"snatched up"

G726
αρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

[Molly]

The road to Emmaus

28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. 29 But they constrained Him, saying, "Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent." And He went in to stay with them.
30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.

--Luke 24


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXppKdV0Ut0


"vanished"

G855
αφαντος
aphantos
af'-an-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5316; non manifested, that is, invisible: - vanished out of sight.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I've also heard of bi-location, where one is seen somewhere else. It happened to the most unlikely to believe it person, my first sort of spiritual mentor, an old man the Lord led me to when I was first saved. He had a very distinct look about him and he was seen by someone in a place he was not, and ministered to them. It happened more than once.

Since He was always walking thru them in their midst, I personally don't see why He couldn't do whatever He wants with someone. I know what Paul meant about whether in the body or not, because He has caught me up and taken me somewhere else, yet my body was still where it had been, praying with others. The only noticable change was that I stopped praying. So had to be my spirit taken?

So I don't see where it would be any big thing for Him to take the whole man where He wants. Fear in man keeps Him from doing a lot more than He does. My  :2c: Blessings....