Does anyone know of some Universalist mystics, or visionaries

[peacemaker]

Trust in the Spirit with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge what is, and your
path will be made straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; have reverence for the truth of things, and turn away from evil.
It will be a healing for your soul and refreshment to your body.

peace

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :cloud9:

I actually was entertained by the "drama" you propose severak times below... that your words might be "too much for me to ...bear"!   :laugh:

I have been a student of the WORD for 34+ years bro... and spent MOST of those years believing the "fables" you believe now...

We are all on the pathway which is directed by YHVH... so I do not condemn you for your present position and observation... it is just for the most part, VEILED and is held by you despite being contrary to REASON... which MUST be included in our observations and communications with YHVH -- Isaiah 1:18

Let see... here is a brief outline of your position as a Christian who believes in OTHER than the SALVATION of ALL,  ...and that which you TEACH to others:

GOD created MAN... and set him alive upon the Earth (without his consent)... and before this, "satan"... was an INVISIBLE being of the MOST POWER aside from GOD ...was placed upon the earth along with 1/3 of the INNUMERABLE Heavenly ANGELS, because they had "rebelled" against GOD, for NO specified REASON, all which took place in a PERFECT [complete] PLACE (Heaven)... (which also, in turn means that "heaven" is NO longer PERFECT -- which means COMPLETE, ...for "satan" and 1/3 of the innumerable angels are NO LONGER there)...

Then in his first few days of LIFE, ...ADAM (Adam being literally an innocent BABY) had to find a way to OBEY GOD in his life DESPITE these INNUMERABLE "beings" which were WAY more powerful and WAY more knowledgeable, and WAY (eternally) more tactically EXPERIENCED (after all they had just fought a "war" against the ALMIGHTY for NO REASON),  ...and from persuading him to be DISOBEDIENT!!!  (areya still with me T-tank?)

Then when ADAM made the FATAL mistake of listening to these INNUMERABLE, INVISIBLE and VERY POWERFUL, ETERNALLY OLD, formerly ANGELIC beings ...GOD became ANGRY, and then decided to BLAME Adam for that disobedience (instead of the demons), and in that decision, also decided to pass that BLAME upon ALL of Adam's future decendents (ALL of MANKIND to follow), causing them to ALL be SINNERS as was their forefather...  (...am I going to fast?)

Then, ...GOD decides to put the decision of gaining LIFE concerning ETERNITY,  in the hands of these FINITE, dumb, easily persuaded, SINFULLY sheepish, ...MEN who were descendent of ADAM, ...who also could not see, hear or speak to either GOD or SATAN or any of the INNUMERABLE "demons"... yet were FORCED (without their consent) to fight a battle against them...  and if indeed they "LOST" this BATTLE, ...they would either (take your pick) 

• (1) Be TORMENTED FOREVER by GOD in Literal FIRE... for their "vapor of a life" in the flesh, because of falling for the deceptions of these innumerable, INVISIBLE and much MORE POWERFUL "demons"... or


• (2) Just plain MURDER them for their indescretions in that "vapor of a life", ...by BURNING them to death instead...

:omg:  :omg:  :omg: ...could ANY story be MORE FAR-FETCHED and UNREALISTIC than that?  :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:

willieH: Hi T-tank!  :hithere:  Me again!  :laughing7:

Stop picking on me :sigh:

If you do not wish to be challenged, then don't post!  If you post with supporting Scripture which actually parallels what YOU STATE in your own words, ...then teaching might be available in what you say. 

If you just post your own words... then OPINION is all that appears.

If you want to learn, that's fine. :thumbsup:

I am always up for learning, which is why I come to Tentmaker!  As well as sharing that which I have learned myself.

I find it a pleasure that you feel comfortable enough and to ask of me these questions.

It might just be the case that you overestimate my questions as flattering. 

I am very comfortable in asking questions, but in this case, they are asked because you propose (as does science oftentimes), things as if they are FACTS without supporting data which establish their assertions as FACTUAL... we shall see.

What do you base this upon, T-tank?  Where is it stated that "satan" is able to "transform" itself?

And where is it said that a "being" named, ..."satan" ..."shows" others, ..."visions"?   :faint:

Here is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people.

MAN?  You believe "satan" to be a MAN, T-tank?  What Scripture names "satan" as a MAN, brother T-tank? :dunno:

And if a "satan" is a "man", then "satan" must needs be descendent of ADAM who was the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45

How can this be?  How could "satan" persuade ADAM to sin, and yet, as YOU just CLAIMED in your own words (that "satan" is a "MAN"), which therefore requires him to be a DESCENDENT of ADAM, the FIRST MAN?  :dontknow:

Draw your own conclusions, ask God to teach you, if you desire to know the truth of this matter, may the lord guide you in your quest.

Thanks, YHVH God is ALWAYS my Guide within my quest to know His TRUTH...

Will you, in the same regard, consider my reply to you? (ask God to teach you, if you desire to know the truth of "this matter") :dontknow:

The angel of light

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

Sorry but this Scriptural passage does not indicate that "satan" is --

(1) a man --
(2) a sentient "being", or --
(3) that "transformation" is born of that (supposed) sentience... :mnah:

Verse 11 --

(1)  actually depicts that "adversity" proposes ITSELF as an angel of light... For example, the carnal shall think fleshly pleasure (erotic) as "LOVE", ...in the stead of  what is TRULY LOVE and which is NOT of the FLESH, but spiritual... 

(2)  Is not depicting that a sentient "being" of darkness, is somehow TRANSFORMING Himself into an "angel of light"...

How can DARKNESS transform into LIGHT?  Have you ever witnessed "DARK" making itself "LIGHT"?  :mshock:

This Scripture -- 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 -- is speaking of the FALSE teachings of CHRISTIANITY, which within their ADVERSITY [satan], propose to the WORLD that GOD SO LOVES...  That He shall BURN MOST of them for ETERNITY [ET] or BURN MOST of THEM UP, by MURDERING them [ED]... which is the type of dialogue that often spews forth from YOUR own tongue! 

YOU have already been shown that the WORD condemns such use of the TONGUE -- James 3:6-12 -- which brings forth the FORK TONGUED message that begins by noting the BLESSING of "God's LOVE", and then eventually in its misguided crooked agenda, includes the CURSING of "God's CONDEMNATION"...  :thumbdown:

The church in its varying and disfunctionally ADVERSE state presenting LIES which are contrary to the workings of GRACE, and which are busily serving SELF in the process (not including themselves in any condemnations), proclaiming SALVATION for themselves, as they CONDEMN others to either UNENDING TORMENT or a quick "divine murder" = ED/Annhilation, ...and then claim they are SENT with this message, claiming it to be the GOSPEL...  :sigh: :rolleye:

2 Thessalonians 2:8,9

Maybe this is too strong to bare, so I'll show you these scriptures

I thank you for the kind concern expressed T-tank, but actually I find this somewhat humorous.  :laughhand:

That you have swallowed, hook, line and sinker, the fallacy of this commonly accepted Christian theology -- which lives upon the SURFACE of  Spiritual vision, is an experience that I have already traversed, and have long since (10 yrs ago), disengaged myself from it...

This Scripture -- 2 Thessalonians 2:8,9 -- is not speaking of a mythical being called "satan", it is speaking of MAN and the HEART of MAN, which is DECEITFUL above ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9

It is YOU which sits in the TEMPLE of GOD, T-tank -- 1 Cor 3:16 -- Luke 17:21 -- showing YOURSELF (wherever you are not submitted) that you are "god", as you in that INSUBMISSION, violate HIS temple, and misuse it... especially the member known as the TONGUE within your condemnation "gospel", ignoring the Scriptural REBUKE given by James -- James 3:6-15 -- which he names as "DEVILISH"...  :dontknow:

A message which is not associated with PEACE, for which the GOSPEL in the WORD is NAMED -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

As long as you present GOD to be the MURDEROUS MONSTER that you DO, then it is YOU which sits in the TEMPLE and DEFIES the ALL ENCOMPASSING GRACE which is given to ALL within His PERFECT IMPARTIALITY to them...

Teaching instead of this TRUTH, such perversions as this: where GRACE abounded, SIN did much more abound... For SIN overcomes GRACE as depicted in the destruction (divine murder/annhilation) of ANYONE ...that is, ...except you of course! :rolleye:

What PEACE is found in ANNHILATION, T-tank?  :dontknow:  Wherein is LOVE within its deed?  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?  :mshock:

2 Corinthians 2:11

Again, this Scripture -- Corinthians 2:11 -- does not designate "satan" as a sentient being, or any other type of being for that matter...

The pronoun [his=autos] used in this text can be translated as any of the following:  "he, she, IT, them, himself, herself, itself, etc."  So insertion of the PRINCIPALITY of ADVERSITY [which is what "satan" actually means] can manifest this verse to say:

2 Cor 2:11 -- Lest adversity [no cap necessary]  should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of ITS devices...  :dontknow:

Acts 16:16

A woman of "divination", sounds familiar? here is a definition from wickipedia

Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god"[2], related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of a standardized process or ritual.[3] Diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency.

That MEN often display the attribute of ADVERSITY, worthy being called "satan" (see Matt 16:23 -- Luke 4:8), certainly does not disassociate them from the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY... the above noted verse is NO DIFFERENT than the address of Peter by CHRIST.

Who else did the power of God overcome?

I do not argue that ADVERSITY is that which the power of God overcomes... I just maintain that IT is a principality, not a being.

When you "overcome" a problematic scenario in your life which is sinful, you do not overcome a being... you "overcome" an unlawful misbehavior

The WORD does not say that "where "satan" abounded, GRACE did much more abound" , ...

The WORD does SAY -- where SIN [missing the mark=transgression of the LAW] abounded, GRACE did much more abound -- Rom 5:20

Acts 13:8, 12

Here Paul is calling a sorcerer a child of the devil.

As long as you envision an unfair plan, exacted for NO REASON, upon man BY GOD, you shall find this "red guy"  and "his trusty pitchfork" poking you in the rear... encasing you in FEAR of that which does NOT EXIST, and which is NOT PART of the MESSAGE of the Gospel, OR Love, OR Peace...

who does Jesus call the devil?

Peter! -- Matt 16:23 -- Mark 8:33 -- Luke 4:8 --  :laughing7:

So is Peter, ..."satan", T-tank?  If he is not, why should the WORD call him such?

As I have amply noted... "satan" is a principality of ADVERSITY and is our "adversary"... It is ourselves that must die in our lives giving way to CHRIST, not some "halloween character"...

Here is a poweful spirit who overcomes and is able to tear off the clothes of these excorcists and also speak.

Acts 19:,13,16

But this must be some kind of disease??

There is no denying that the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY ["satan"] inherent in MAN is a POWERFUL spirit, which cannot be separated from him, except via the WORK of CHRIST... and the Father who is WORKING ALL THINGS...

The heart of MAN is deceitful above ALL things, to include itself... which decieves itself into thinking that another being ["satan"] is at fault or to blame for the SIN which befalls him.

Acts 19:11,12

healed disease AND THE ???

The same "spirits" which encumbered PETER, encumber you bro... And the varying host of SINFULNESS in you is not a bunch of "demons", which your theology claims to be an army commanded by "satan"... rather it is ALL YOU... and when YOU give account, you shall NOT blame any such myths... you shall only KNOW that the SINS committed in your life were forthcoming of YOU... and YOU ALONE...

If "satan" were accountable for "TRICKING YOU", then "satan" would be giving account of your sins, not YOU.

Btw... you never answered as to the Scripture that supports "demonic trickery"   :OhNo:

Are you going to respond?  Or do we just "chalk it up" to another of your Unbiblical assertions?  :Chinscratch:

Devil an angel of light?
Who said the devil, looked like a monster? :dontknow: pop culture or the bible?

Interesting that you bring this up... for Christianity has composed its OWN versions of who and what "satan" is in their outreach materials, tracts and art... not to mention that depiction of this NON EXISTENT, NEVER SEEN "being" is seen in the many  periodicals and literature of the church in its varying divisions, ALL share their picture of this myth, with NO FOUNDATION nor Heavenly mandate to do so...

Any perceptions of "satan" as a monster are readily available at your nearest "Christian bookstore"...  Bill Wiese's book for one... have you heard of this book?  Do you believe it?

this monster is able to deceive learned men that he is good or god.

Monster?  I thought he was a "man"? As you noted above, and I copy HERE:

Here is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people.

What is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...  :laughing7:

Or is the TRUTH, that "satan" is the natural adversity IN MAN, and NOT -- an EXISTENT invisible ghostly omnipresent, almost as powerful as God, foolishness, created by the theology of religionists which perpetuate this FEAR which is NOT part of LOVE, nor of the GOSPEL of PEACE which is of GOD?  :dontknow:

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

I have already noted your misunderstanding of this one, above as well... not much sense in repeating it...

1 john 4:1,3

I have more to tell you concerning the devil, on my reply to your other thread, if you are able to bare it, so be prepared.

Trust me T-tank... I have been in ministry for 34+ years and you can hardly inform me of things on this subject that I have not already heard before... Many of which I was in conformity with, during my involvement with the Salvation Army (20 yrs) and the SDA church (5 yrs)...

That you are immersed in this self-deception is hardly something that is hard for me to "bear"... it is your burden to carry... which is based and affected by and amongst other false beliefs that you propose on Tentmaker...

You have yet to post a verse which proves that "satan" is a sentient being with an agenda...

Answer this question if you are able...

More UNBIBLICAL conjecture... THINKTANK ---> "demonic trickery" is "apparent"?  :omg: 

Where is it mentioned in the WORD, that "demons" are about, ..."trickery"?  Or even that they are "about"... anything? (i.e. manifesting a sentient agenda)  :dontknow:

Well T-tank?  Where is "demonic trickery" mentioned in the WORD of GOD, not just YOUR WORDS?

...willieH  :happy3:

[Shadow]

Here is a good analogy of what you are trying to say here WillieH

GOD created MAN... and set him alive upon the Earth (without his consent)... and before this, "satan"... was an INVISIBLE being of the MOST POWER aside from GOD ...was placed upon the earth along with 1/3 of the INNUMERABLE Heavenly ANGELS, because they had "rebelled" against GOD, for NO specified REASON, all which took place in a PERFECT [complete] PLACE (Heaven)... (which also, in turn means that "heaven" is NO longer PERFECT -- which means COMPLETE, ...for "satan" and 1/3 of the innumerable angels are NO LONGER there)...

Then in his first few days of LIFE, ...ADAM (Adam being literally an innocent BABY) had to find a way to OBEY GOD in his life DESPITE these INNUMERABLE "beings" which were WAY more powerful and WAY more knowledgeable, and WAY (eternally) more tactically EXPERIENCED (after all they had just fought a "war" against the ALMIGHTY for NO REASON),  ...and from persuading him to be DISOBEDIENT!!!  (areya still with me T-tank?)

Then when ADAM made the FATAL mistake of listening to these INNUMERABLE, INVISIBLE and VERY POWERFUL, ETERNALLY OLD, formerly ANGELIC beings ...GOD became ANGRY, and then decided to BLAME Adam for that disobedience (instead of the demons), and in that decision, also decided to pass that BLAME upon ALL of Adam's future decendents (ALL of MANKIND to follow), causing them to ALL be SINNERS as was their forefather...  (...am I going to fast?)

Then, ...GOD decides to put the decision of gaining LIFE concerning ETERNITY,  in the hands of these FINITE, dumb, easily persuaded, SINFULLY sheepish, ...MEN who were descendent of ADAM, ...who also could not see, hear or speak to either GOD or SATAN or any of the INNUMERABLE "demons"... yet were FORCED (without their consent) to fight a battle against them...  and if indeed they "LOST" this BATTLE, ...they would either (take your pick)

    * (1) Be TORMENTED FOREVER by GOD in Literal FIRE... for their "vapor of a life" in the flesh, because of falling for the deceptions of these innumerable, INVISIBLE and much MORE POWERFUL "demons"... or
    * (2) Just plain MURDER them for their indescretions in that "vapor of a life", ...by BURNING them to death instead...

Hell is an unattended stove

[WhiteWings]

Hell is an unattended stove

Link on that page:
There is no hell
Did Jesus believe in hell?

Jesus' Anti-Hell Sayings


1. "Just suggesting that God burn people with fire as a punishment for rejecting me is Satan talk!" Lk. 9:54-56

2. "I directly identify with all who suffer pain, and seek to relieve them of it." Mt. 25:40

3. "Just as God never stops forgiving those who sin against him, never stop forgiving those who sin against you." Mt. 6:12, 18:22; Lk. 11:4

4. "The Church will knock down the gates of Hell to let everyone out!" Mt. 16:18

5. "Father [God], forgive even those who commit the worst sins against me [You], because they don't really know what they're doing." Lk. 23:34

6. "I am against punishment, equal or not. Instead, never return pain for pain." Mt 5:39, Lk. 6.29

7. "I am the Good Shepherd who will never give up until I save the last, lost sheep [soul]!" Lk. 15:4

8. "God goes out of his way to have sinners in his [holy] presence in order to cure them." Mt. 9:12, Mk. 2:17, Lk. 4:23

9. "Because God is perfect, he doesn't punish those who sin against him but loves, blesses and does good to them instead." Mt. 5:43-48

10. "Since God is merciful and kind, even to the unthankful and evil, do unto all others as you would have them do to you." Mt. 7:7-12, Lk. 6:27-36

[Molly]

There is an enemy of God, but he is the nachash, not satan.  Although we have come to call the nachash 'satan' over time, it is not exactly accurate.  The nachash is the serpent being first seen in Gen 3:1, and yes, he is an enemy of God.  I'm glad to finally get this cleared up for myself.





The Absence of Satan in the Old Testament
Posted By MSH on February 1, 2010

Several commenters to the last post asked for some information on the satan.

Although English Bibles continue the practice of capitalizing the word "satan" in passages like Job 1 and 2, those passage do not have a specific individual in mind — that is, "satan" in these passages should *not* be understood as a proper personal name.

The reason for this is straightforward. In biblical Hebrew, the definite article (the word "the) is a single letter (heh). Hebrew prefixes (attaches) the definite article to a noun (or participle to make it a substantive) so that, like all languages that have definite articles, the noun is made specific. Biblical Hebrew does not, however, put the definite article (the word "the") on proper personal nouns (personal names).  In this respect, Hebrew is like English. I don't call myself "the Mike".No one (except maybe Donald Trump  ) puts the word "the" in front of their first name. Hebrew simply does not do this at all. As the well known biblical Hebrew reference grammar by Jouon-Muraoka notes: "No proper noun of person takes the article, not even when it has the form of an adjective or a participle."[1.Paul Joüon and Takamitsu Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Editrice Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2003; 2005), vol. 2:505; Par 137.b.]

Without exception, the word "satan" in Job occurs *with* the article. This indicates quite clearly that "satan" is *not* a personal name. It is generic, and means "the adversary". The word can be used of human beings (1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:23; 1 Kings 5:18; 1 Kings 11:14). All of these examples have "satan" without the article, but the referent is a human being, not a divine being, so we don't have "Satan" here either.

In terms of statistics, the noun "satan" occurs 27 times in the Hebrew Bible, ten times *without* the article.

Of these ten, seven refer to human beings and two refer to the Angel of Yahweh for sure. The lone outlier is 1 Chron 21:1. This is the famous passage where "Satan" provokes David to take a census, but in the parallel passage, 2 Sam 24:1-25, it's Yahweh provoking David to take the census. Due to this parallel, and due to the fact that "satan" here has no article, this is viewed by some as the single instance of an evil, cosmic figure called "satan" in the OT.  It actually isn't, though. If you're familiar with my work on the two Yahwehs in the OT, the parallel (Yahweh-satan) is striking to you. The "satan" figure here is none other than the Angel of Yahweh — and so this instance without the article is akin to the two instances in the book of Numbers where "satan" was used of the Angel. This relieves the "is Yahweh Satan?" question and any notion of contradiction — since it would mean BOTH passages have Yahweh provoking David — one appears to be the invisible Yahweh; the other is the visible Yahweh.

There's actually been a good recent article on why the satan in 1 Chron 21:1 is the Angel.  The article is freely available online, so I've posted it here as a PDF.  Consider this one fact that the article notes.  It is in THIS passage that, after verse 1 mentions the "satan" provoking David, we read the Angel is there "with a sword drawn in his hand". The Hebrew phrasing behind this occurs only three other times: Joshua 5:13 and Numbers 22:23, 31. ALL of these references are the Angel of Yahweh. and in one of them (Num. 22) he is the satan.

This would mean there are ZERO verses in the OT that have a personal name "satan", and ZERO references to Satan as a cosmic evil entity as in the NT.

So where does this leave us?

Basically, "the satan" in Job is an officer of the divine council (sort of like a prosecutor). His job is to "run to and fro throughout the earth" to see who is and who is not obeying Yahweh. When he finds someone who isn't and is therefore under Yahweh's wrath, he "accuses" that person. This is what we see in Job — and it actually has a distinct New Testament flavor. (We also see it in Zechariah 3). But the point here is that this satan is not evil; he's doing his job. Over time (specifically the idea of "being an adversary in the heavenly council" was applied intellectually to the enemy of God — the nachash (typically rendered "serpent") in Eden, the one who asserted his own will against Yahweh's designs. That entity eventually becomes labeled "Satan" and so the adversarial role gets personified and stuck to God's great enemy (also called the Devil). This is a good example of how an idea in Israelite religion plays out and is applied in different ways during the progress of revelation.

www.michaelsheiser.com



Who is Michael S Heiser?



Mike Heiser earned the M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 2004.  Before attending the UW-Madison, Mike earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields: Ancient Israel and Egyptology).  Mike was hired as the Academic Editor of Logos Bible Software shortly after completing his Ph.D. Before joining Logos, Mike spent twelve years teaching biblical studies, history, and biblical languages on the undergraduate level.

Mike's main research interests are Israelite religion (especially Israel's divine council), biblical theology, ancient Near Eastern religion, biblical & ancient Semitic languages, and ancient Jewish binitarian monotheism. His dissertation was entitled, "The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature."

www.drmsh.com

 

[shawn]

Call me a skeptic but how does one know that a "mystics" message is from God?  If it lines up with the way we see scripture?  I believe there is a very good liklihood that none of us get any of this even close to it's entirety.  Personally, I would rather trust the word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.

I never had a vision, NDE or HS experience but I wonder how you know there is a "HS presence". It may be as obvious to you as to the people who had a NDE. If NDEs of others can't be trusted how do you know your own experience can be trusted?

First, I don't know these people nor their walk or motivations.  I'm not saying these individuals shouldn't trust their own experiences.  I'm saying how am I to trust their experiences?  Do, I trust my own?  Yes.  But, I don't ask anyone to trust my experience.  I tell them to seek and they shall find.  God will give them their own experience with his love, grace and mercy. 

But, if you are wanting to get into a philosophical debate about should one trust their own experiences that's a whole other thread.  I have had these debates with believers, agnostics and atheists.  There is alot of circular arguments on both sides and it usually leads to futility.

[thinktank]

Hello my aquaintance, I find it interesting how you interpret the scriptures I gave you. Rather amusing. I guess i'm not the only one with a creative imagination ey.  :grin:

It's intriging how you rant on about annihilation, when we are discussing the devil.

What PEACE is found in ANNHILATION, T-tank?    Wherein is LOVE within its deed?  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?

God destroyed the world and MURDERED as you like to say People in a flood, during Noahs time, what do you say to people who ask you this question? Do you call it a spiritual flood??

More sayings about annhilation, when we are discussing the devil? Your feelings betray you my son, it shows the true issue here, that the devil for you poses a problem for your beliefs, so you must invent unscriptural ideas about who the devil is, to be honest I don't think you have a clue of who or what the devil is, your like

Is he a bird, is he a plane, Is he a snake, is he a man, is he a monster, is he a imp with a pitchfork, no he's a principality, but what's a principality, I don't know, nooooooo :dontknow:

But the holy ghost betrayed your thoughts and did find the truth in a moment of revelation, which your mind cannot currently accept, due to certain issues you have, as I said, you might not currently bare them, your boastings about being a Christian for 34 years means little, we all are being worked upon by the master potter.

There is no denying that the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY ["satan"] inherent in MAN is a POWERFUL spirit, which cannot be separated from him, except via the WORK of CHRIST... and the Father who is WORKING ALL THINGS...

You said "no denying SATAN in man IS A POWERFUL SPIRIT, that cannot be seperated from him, except via the WORK of Christ",
Do you know one of the works of Christ is CASTING OUT DEMONS, I guess that's the holy ghost working upon you. :thumbsup:

What is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...

It's already been revealed to me via the WORD and the Holy Ghost. Since you already have had this revelation as demonstrated in this post, then holy ghost is already working upon you and you can either resist or collaberate.

it is your burden to carry... which is based and affected by and amongst other false beliefs that you propose on Tentmaker...

Some of my posts are simply opinions and questions just like all here, especially you, but when it comes to this topic of the devil, this is a tried and tested doctrine, held by many here. It is not a burden, it is similar to a soldier who carries a rocket launcher[casting out devils], yes it is heavy to carry and your more likely to be a target by the enemy[demons hate deliverance ministries], but it can do great damage to enemy infastructure [uncleaness]  and powerful opponents such as tanks [demons]

Whatsoever you bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven.

[Nathan]

I'm not sure I want to get to caught up in your argument here.  I for one, thoroughly enjoy Willie's insights and I've also seen him from time to time become quite passionate about what he sees.  I think you may be experiencing that passion.  I think many who read these comments also see there is the potential of division here due mostly to personality differences.  I pray the sharings continue, but that love abounds.

I for one, used to believe demons are spiritual beings running around creating havoc whereever they go.  But I've since let go of that due to seeing things in a much different perspective.  I don't denounce others for still wanting to believe in them, but I'm not so sure it's an accurate depiction for one to assume that just because my translation says they're demons, that this is what they really are.

I find when the Spirit does reveal things to us, it's seldom to affirm what we think we already know.  I find that the Spirit is constantly and forever calling us forward, continuing to stretch us, challenge what we think we know.  When we become too confident, those may be the most vulnerable times for deception. 

I believe there's a reason why "Satan" is rarely mentioned in the Old Testament as opposed to the New.  For me, it's translations of languages.  And mistranslations of languages.  But the core truth is that Satan is an adversary, it's a title, not a person or being.  I'm not saying everyone who sees this differently has had their thoughts betrayed by the Holy Ghost (Really TT, did you really say that?)

Seeing the serpent in the garden to be the same as the dragon in Revelation to be the same as satan, to be the same as the devil . .they are all one and the same in  that they are an adversary, it then meshes with the truth that my mind is always at enmity with God . . my mind is also an adversary.  Same as Peters when Jesus called him satan . . .same as it was the carnality, the flesh of Jesus that was tempting him . . .it's just ridiculous to think that the devil, in the light tradition sees him . . would have anything he could tempt Jesus "with". 

But when I see that because Jesus became flesh, that it was his flesh that was tempting him with power and miracles . . .the same flesh that tempted Eve in the same manner, it all comes together in realizing that I have that same adversity happening "in" me as well. 

What stretches us more?  Having the Holy Spirit affirm what we already think we know,  that satan is a spirit being out to overthrow God?  Or having the Holy Spirit "reveal" that there is a satan in all of us that is out to kill and destroy the seed of life planted "in" us by the Spirit himself?

Willie, you have helped me tremendously in seeing things much more clearly.  I truly appreciate your insights.

[Molly]

For me, it's translations of languages.  And mistranslations of languages.

If you think it is a matter of languages and translations, why don't you take a look at what Michael Heiser has to say, since he has spent decades studying over 12 different ancient languages, including ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.  [He is also a Christian.]

As far as I can tell, he agrees with Willie on satan [that it is a title denoting adversary] and agrees with TT on the serpent, aka the nachash, the devil, the great dragon, and Satan [that it is a divine being and enemy of God].


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:

I mean you no harm, T-tank... just propose correction, for that is what drew you here, and that is why you find this place spiritually "magnetic"... God has big things in store for you, and in time you will see this...

Hello my aquaintance, I find it interesting how you interpret the scriptures I gave you. Rather amusing. I guess i'm not the only one with a creative imagination ey.  :grin:

It's intriging how you rant on about annihilation, when we are discussing the devil.

FIRST --- I have been herein designated YOUR ..."aquaintance"?  Thanks for all that "brotherly" ...I mean, ..."aquaintencely" love... BROTHER!

SECOND --- Quit stalling, and answer the questions I proposed to you when you get done  :laugh: ...that is, if you HAVE any answers... :rolleye:

Why not clear up your SCRAMBLED up, all-over-the-place, position as to what "satan" actually is, T-tank?  Is "satan" ...a man, monster, talking snake, invisible/silent ghost, halloween character, dragon, ...which is it, T-tank?"  :dontknow: 

I have made it VERY clear that I believe "satan" to be ONE THING -- which is the ADVERSITY within the DECEITFUL natural heart of MAN -- which is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9 -- (as Paul notes his battle to be with, in Rom 7 -- where he makes NO MENTION of any "talking snakes, monsters, dragons, etc.)

THIRD -- As far as "rants" go, ...you don't like correlating mention of your belief in Annhilation, which is further exposed of its EVIL and false teaching, and for its ADVERSITY which is "enjoined at the hip", with WHO and WHAT the "devil" is... 

As Scripture notes...  DARKNESS does not comprehend the LIGHT! -- John 1:5 -- nor can DARKNESS,  ..."transform (turn ITSELF) into LIGHT... :mnah:  of which it has NO COMPREHENSION...

As far as the discussion goes... YOU proposed ideas, to which I responded... so don't try to build strawmen distractions... hoping to evade my response to you.

What PEACE is found in ANNHILATION, T-tank?    Wherein is LOVE within its deed?  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?

God destroyed the world and MURDERED as you like to say People in a flood, during Noahs time, what do you say to people who ask you this question? Do you call it a spiritual flood??

FIRST --- ALL men are APPOINTED to DIE in ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- for ALL have SINNED and come short of the Glory of GOD -- Rom 3:23 -- Those who died in the FLOOD, met the end DECLARED by GOD that they should meet... those which were "spared death" in the FLOOD, still DIED later... in BOTH CASES... God decided the moment and causes of their "deaths"... ALL sinners shall DIE... for ALL are IN the DEATH of ADAM... as well as (same "all") are IN the LIFE of CHRIST -- 1 Cor 15:22

SECOND --- The proposal of "annhilation" which YOU embrace, is DEATH on a PERMANENT basis... not just death of the TEMPORAL life of the FLESH... which is contrary to DEATH "passing away", for if any REMAIN DEAD, then DEATH remains.

THIRD --- you failed to address the QUESTION about ANNHILATION, T-tank!  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?

More sayings about annhilation, when we are discussing the devil? Your feelings betray you my son, it shows the true issue here, that the devil for you poses a problem for your beliefs, so you must invent unscriptural ideas about who the devil is, to be honest I don't think you have a clue of who or what the devil is, your like

FIRST --- Let us get one thing straight... I am hardly "your son", nor ever will be...  Anyway, ...according to YOUR earlier notation --- I am "YOUR AQUAINTENCE"?

SECOND --- I answered EVERYTHING in your post. which included ALL Scriptures you attempted to use to found your belief in the MYTHICAL being you call, "satan"...  You are inept in responding to me, and seek to divert many of the suggestions YOU made, and to which I RESPONDED.

You failed to answer questions asked...



such as this: 

MAN?  You believe "satan" to be a MAN, T-tank?  What Scripture names "satan" as a MAN, brother T-tank?

And if a "satan" is a "man", then "satan" must needs be descendent of ADAM who was the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45

How can this be?  How could "satan" persuade ADAM to sin, and yet, as YOU just CLAIMED in your own words (that "satan" is a "MAN"), which therefore requires him to be a DESCENDENT of ADAM, the FIRST MAN?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

and this:

How can DARKNESS transform into LIGHT?  Have you ever witnessed "DARK" making itself "LIGHT"? 

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

and this:

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
who does Jesus call the devil?

willieH:  Peter! -- Matt 16:23 -- Mark 8:33 -- Luke 4:8 

So is Peter, ..."satan", T-tank?  If he is not, why should the WORD call him such?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

and this:

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
this monster is able to deceive learned men that he is good or god.

willieH: Monster?  I thought he was a "man"? As you noted above, and I copy HERE:

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
Here is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people.

willieH:  What is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...   :laughing7:

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:


:dunno:  Where is your response to these T-tank?  What is "satan", T-tank?  Peter?  A talking snake?  The Apostle Peter? A monster?  A man? A halloween character?  :dontknow: 

Let's face it bro... You are all over the place, spiritually...  :sigh:

Is he a bird, is he a plane, Is he a snake, is he a man, is he a monster, is he a imp with a pitchfork, no he's a principality, but what's a principality, I don't know, nooooooo :dontknow:

Ah yes... you don't know... nice of you to admit it.   :thumbsup:

But the holy ghost betrayed your thoughts and did find the truth in a moment of revelation, which your mind cannot currently accept, due to certain issues you have, as I said, you might not currently bare them, your boastings about being a Christian for 34 years means little, we all are being worked upon by the master potter.

There is no boast there T-tank... I just note this to you, that your deceptions shall not work with me, for I am not a beginner concerning the WORD which you might manipulate with your FEAR oriented teachings ...which indeed are CAST OUT by LOVE -- 1 John 4:18

Rather, in those God blessed 34 years, I have gained the LOVE and PEACE found of and IN the GOSPEL which is not and SHALL NOT be moved by your empty deceits.

There is no denying that the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY ["satan"] inherent in MAN is a POWERFUL spirit, which cannot be separated from him, except via the WORK of CHRIST... and the Father who is WORKING ALL THINGS...

You said "no denying SATAN in man IS A POWERFUL SPIRIT, that cannot be seperated from him, except via the WORK of Christ",
Do you know one of the works of Christ is CASTING OUT DEMONS, I guess that's the holy ghost working upon you. :thumbsup:

And is working upon YOU as well, for if not... then the TRUTH is not in you, T-tank -- 1 John 1:8

I agree with this... "satan" is not a being inside men... "satan" is the ADVERSITY found in the Carnality of the FLESH, in which all men battle... as is noted by Paul in Rom 7 the entire chapter.  And is further acknowledged by John -- 1 John 1:8

What is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...

It's already been revealed to me via the WORD and the Holy Ghost. Since you already have had this revelation as demonstrated in this post, then holy ghost is already working upon you and you can either resist or collaberate.

Well?  Snake, Man, Monster, Halloween character, ...which is it O wise one?  :laughing7:

it is your burden to carry... which is based and affected by and amongst other false beliefs that you propose on Tentmaker...

Some of my posts are simply opinions and questions just like all here, especially you, but when it comes to this topic of the devil, this is a tried and tested doctrine, held by many here.

Hmmm... now you appeal to numbers @ Tentmaker, instead of answer the questions.  There are MILLIONS of ISLAMICS... which DWARFS the number present here... shall we therefore deduce that the ISLAMICS are correct, due to the number of multiple MILLIONS of them which believe this religious philosphy?  Get a clue bro...

If you wish to rebuke or challenge me, don't wave the other members of the forum forth, to assist you in doing so... such is the practice of futility in the place of REASON... which you choose to ignore.

How can DARK make itself LIGHT, T-tank?  Surely you can answer that one...  :laughing7:

It is not a burden, it is similar to a soldier who carries a rocket launcher[casting out devils], yes it is heavy to carry and your more likely to be a target by the enemy[demons hate deliverance ministries], but it can do great damage to enemy infastructure [uncleaness]  and powerful opponents such as tanks [demons]

Your own self adorning, and inflated wordings betray you brother T...

TANKS is your illustration of demons?  T-TANK?

Answer the questions, Mr. Evasion... er, ...I mean... T-tank...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Nathan]

For me, it's translations of languages.  And mistranslations of languages.

If you think it is a matter of languages and translations, why don't you take a look at what Michael Heiser has to say, since he has spent decades studying over 12 different ancient languages, including ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.  [He is also a Christian.]

As far as I can tell, he agrees with Willie on satan [that it is a title denoting adversary] and agrees with TT on the serpent, aka the nachash, the devil, the great dragon, and Satan [that it is a divine being and enemy of God].


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

First Molly, I think going to those lengths for pursuing original translations and deritatives of words may lead one into knowledge, but I'm not after knowledge.  I'm after spiritual truth.  I've said this before, but the Pharisees give the best example when it comes to great knowledgeable men.  They not only knew every minute detail, but they taught it, they "reared" other Rabbi.  They were the pinnacle of knowledge when it came to prophecies of Scripture and principles.  Yet not only did they not recognize Jesus as the Christ, they murdered him.  So, thanks but no thanks.  I'm not after someone else's renderings as far as translative theatre goes. 

That's what I've been trying to say though.  When it comes to spiritual matters, the rules of engagement are not the same as they are when studying for a term paper.  Faith is not reitterating words already written.  The kingdom doesn't come by observation.  These things are all inward.  I know how much you embrace written Scripture and how often times your comments are little more than a quoted verse and it's great that we have literally every verse just seconds away from our monitor screens at any given moment.  I do search passages out same as you. 

Every time I open up the forum, I open up two of my Bible search sites at the same time.  So this is not about walking away from the Scriptures.  Not at all.  But for me, if I were to choose, I'd lay the Bible down and follow the sound rather than rely solely on my limited ability to see, hear and conclude what is and what isn't truth.

Jesus didn't come to establish the Bible.  He came to establish a relationship.  We've been over this before and I've come close to getting into to much trouble about matters of the sacred Scriptures and I really don't want to go all the way there again.  But if we think that faith is built upon what is written, I sense we set ourselves up for the risk of walking according to reasoning and thinking it's spirit.  But if we walk "in" the spirit, even though our minds may not see the same things, there won't be a condemning tone in our words to those who see things differently.  I better shut up, I'm starting to convict myself.

Lastly, the passage you quoted.  Your point was that between satan and the devil, one is a title while the other is a being . . .then you quote a verse that supposedly is to support your statement . . .but as I read it, for me it's saying the serpent, the dragon, satan and the devil are all one and the same.  So essentially, it didn't change anything.  I still see satan as an adversary . . .which is what my carnal nature "is" and the devil is what my carnal nature "does".  Devil is traducer . .or accuser . . .it's judgmental, it's condemning . . .it belittles it's enemy into some form of submission, or tries to.  All of those things are characteristics of a carnal mind.

Any ideas as to why Jesus had to wear a crown of thorns?  For me, it's signifying the fact that he took the cursed mind to the cross.  Thorns represent curse.  anything worn as a crown represents my mind.  In Revelation he's wearing a crown of gold, signifying a purified mind. 

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus said "My sheep hear My Voice," perhaps in part, because only knowledge of the "letterword" puffs up.

Only Bible study will end in death because only knowledge (even of the Scriptures) still comes from the same tree — the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!

Jesus said, "My sheep hear My Voice!"

[Nathan]

My point EXACTLY bro.  Let the mind go from operation in this realm, to "observation" in the kingdom.  When my spirit is in operation, my mind grows in understanding.  It's not taught, it's "experienced" inwardly. 

[Molly]

I understand what you're saying, Nathan.  But, if there is an evil being out there who is the god of this world and is deceiving the whole world--I'd like to know about it--and have some good information about it.

So this interests me.  Now the new and old testament identifies this being as the nachash, the serpent, who is 'called' the Devil and Satan.  So the book is prophesying and identifying what the being will be called, as well as who he is. That doesn't mean that others cannot also be called  satan, because as you and Willie have pointed out that is a descriptive title for adversary.  But, this is part of a much bigger story--where did this being come from, why is he the enemy of God?  And, why are we so susceptible to him, and what can/should we do, what is required of me?  How does he attack us?  How does the story end, and so forth.

I know that I'm not the god of this world, and I don't deceive the whole world, so this is not talking about me.  

But, if there is an enemy of God and an enemy of mankind out there, I sure want to know about it.

[peacemaker]

If "satan" were accountable for "TRICKING YOU", then "satan" would be giving account of your sins, not YOU.

:hihat: "Left Behind the Traditional, that Great Tower of Religious cruelty."

[peacemaker]

Satan, the serpent; an officer of the divine council?
By Michael S Heiser, an Egyptologist?

Syncretistic languages?   :coffee2:

[Molly]

 :coffee2:  yeah.  The Divine Council--these guys:


Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.



"the mighty"

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."




"the gods"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhıym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

[claypot]

I understand what you're saying, Nathan.  But, if there is an evil being out there who is the god of this world and is deceiving the whole world--I'd like to know about it--and have some good information about it.

So this interests me.  Now the new and old testament identifies this being as the nachash, the serpent, who is 'called' the Devil and Satan.  So the book is prophesying and identifying what the being will be called, as well as who he is. That doesn't mean that others cannot also be called  satan, because as you and Willie have pointed out that is a descriptive title for adversary.  But, this is part of a much bigger story--where did this being come from, why is he the enemy of God?  And, why are we so susceptible to him, and what can/should we do, what is required of me?  How does he attack us?  How does the story end, and so forth.

I know that I'm not the god of this world, and I don't deceive the whole world, so this is not talking about me. 

But, if there is an enemy of God and an enemy of mankind out there, I sure want to know about it.

I see it as the world is you Molly and me. As long as the carnal mind rules our world I see it (our carnal mindset) as the god of 'this' world. It does deceive the whole world, me and you. Until we have the mind of Christ we are deceived.

We are susceptible to 'him' because we are largely products of our minds.

What we can do is renew our minds as God directs and orchestrates. This is what is required of you.

The carnal mindset (satan) attacks by creating a corrupt mind while God is working to create within us a mind of power and love and soundness.

Just some thoughts.

cp

[claypot]

Molly, one more thing. You ask where this being (satan) came from. Very thought provoking question. Makes me think.

In my understanding it (satan/carnal mindset) comes from weakness. I believe Adam (us) were created with inherent weakness for a perfectly perfect purpose. We are to grow strong. God's plan, the making of man in His image. We go from natural to spiritual. A process.

cp

[Beloved Servant]

Or, maybe, we go from spiritual (Eden and Innocence), for He knows us before we are born,
to the natural world via our physical birth crying like babies and then
back to spiritual again this time with the Overcoming Resurrection Power of Christ Jesus;



He is the Pattern.

[claypot]

I've often thought that very thing Bserv (I have a hard time shortening your name to it's obvious initials  :grin:)

cp

[Molly]

I hear you, CP.  But there is this drama going on throughout the Bible, behind the scenes, which is kind of the elephant in the room--starting with Gen 1--"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness--and continued into the New Testament.

It is not flesh and blood [the carnal] that we are fighting with, although, like you said, that might be our weakness in battle--it is a spiritual war that is dealing with spirits outside of ourselves, in heavenly places.

How can I fight a war if I don't know who the enemy is?




EPHESIANS 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

"hosts" [of wickedness]

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.



Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, but who are these guys?

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

--Job 38

[claypot]

I'm thinking the enemy is our weakness from which our carnality comes from. You can fight weakness by seeking Strength.

To me the whole drama that is being played out is the life of every human. A baby is conceived, it grows, it sins because of inherent weakness, it is saved by Jesus Christ and eventually comes to a realization of this salvation via the workings of God. The End....The Beginning!

cp

[Beloved Servant]

That, in my opinion is US, Molly, created in the Elohim.

We are now walking out the path that the Father ordained for us.

[Nathan]

Been over this once before, but because you asked the question again Molly, I'll throw this out again. 
Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

the devil's schemes
Schemes?  The devil is the same as the serpent in Genesis, the most "subtle" beast in all the field.  This is still depicting the carnality of the natural realm.  It's like how the moon affects our earth.  We can't see it doing anything, but we know without it life on earth would not ever be the same.  Carnality, the pull of the flesh is there, always nagging, constantly trying to distract and destruct.

2 Corinthians 10
3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
7You are looking only on the surface of things . . .

The reason we can't seem to let go of the idea that principalities and powers is dealing with demonic heiarchy is due to it being ingrained into our "minds" by other men's teachings.  But when you start breaking this down, a different pattern seems to materialize.  And that is, these weapons of warfare are not for spirits outside of us, they are more mental blocks and strongholds "inside" of us.

Arguements, pretensions set up against "knowledge". . .taking captive every "thought". . .these weapons of warfare are not demonic, it's speaking of mental warfare going on inwardly. 

And Molly, you hit the nail on the head with your question and I quote . . .
How can I fight a war if I don't know who the enemy is?

My answer is . . .one you can't.  Two, your not supposed to, it's not your battle, the battle is the Lord's.  Three, by entering into the person of rest, you've laid down your weapons and traded up for plowshares. And four, THAT'S why I keep pounding on this topic so much.  I "do" know who the enemy is, it's ME!  My flesh!  My carnal nature!  My MIND.