Tentmaker Forum

Regarding some supernatural experiences and miracles by Christian Universalists who had met with Jesus, or had some type of visions and/or supernatural experiences.  I had read about several, but cant really remember what any of their names.  One I remember was from the civil war, who was taken to hell, and an angel told him that they would be released.  Does anyone have any links about Universalist visionaries?

This probably isn't exactly what you are looking for, but it is a pretty interesting article regarding near death experiences and universalism...

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html

I know of Sandhu Sundar Singh and the Germans Jakob Lorber and Johannes Greber

but I warn you, I consider them as occultists and advice you not consider their witness as having the least authority nor to deal too much with them they are as little an authority as Paul Wiese or Mary K. Baxter or any other self-claimed prophet, this is my opinion.

I've been reading about Singh lately. I don't know if he was an occultist or not. However it seems he was not a Universalist. He did believe most people will be saved but not everyone. His testimony about Hell is as follows:

'I was also told that the love of God operates even in Hell. God does not shine in His full light, because those there could not bear it, but He gradually shows them more and more light and by and by brings them on and moves their conscience towards something better, although they think that the desire is entirely their own. Thus God works on their minds from within, something in the same way, though in the opposite direction, as that in which Satan suggests temptation to us here. Thus, what with God's work within and the Light without, almost all those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Christ's feet. It will perhaps take millions of ages, but when it is attained they will be full of joy and thankfulness towards God: though they will still be less happy than those who have accepted Christ on earth. Thus Hell also is a training school, a place of preparation for Home. Those in Hell know that it is not their home because they suffer there. Men were not created for Hell and therefore do not enjoy it and, when there, desire to escape to Heaven. They do so, but they find Heaven even more uncongenial than Hell, so they return. But this convinces them that there is something wrong in their lives, and thus they are gradually led to repentance. At least, that is the case with the majority, but there are some few personalities, Satan for instance, in regard to whom I was told, 'Don't ask about them.. And so I didn't like to ask, but I hoped that for them also there was some hope.

'They also told me that the saints help in the work of saving souls in Hell, because there can be no idleness in Heaven. Those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Heaven, like the prodigal son, but with regard to the ultimate fate of a certain number you must not ask.' The Sadhu is inclined to think that perhaps these few will be annihilated.

Once I said 'So many people will be lost because they have not heard of Christ.' They said, 'The contrary will be the case; very few will be lost.' There is a kind of heavenly joke - no joke is not a good word for it. Very few will be lost but many will be saved. It is so but don't tell,' they said, as it were in jest, 'because it will make men careless, and we want them to enjoy the First Heaven - that is, the Heaven on earth - as well.' 'If there were no hope for all the non-Christians in the world and all the Christians who die in sin, God would stop creating men. We must do our part here on earth to save sinners, but if they refuse we need not be without hope for them.'

http://www.growthingod.org.uk/UNIREC.HTM

My question is, what reason or purpose would there need to be these people and what interest do you have in them?

Carlton Pearson is only one I've heard of.  Check out his book, The Gospel of Inclusion, good stuff.

 :cloud9: I've read a couple of excerpts of writings by 17th century Christian "mystic", Jane Leade. Google her.....blessings....

PS. If you google "17th century mystic", it brings up a list of "mystics" listed by century, on wikipedia.

QuoteCarlton Pearson is only one I've heard of.  Check out his book, The Gospel of Inclusion, good stuff.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Very interesting story!!

In my studies, I've come across several clearly universalist mystics: David Joris, Clement Ziegler, and Michael Hahn. Also mystically inclined and possibly universalist were Hans Denck, Hans Bunderlin, Christian Entfelder, Jacob Kautz, Hans Hut, Sebastian Franck, and Valentin Wiegel. The evidence for a belief in unequivocal universalism is stronger for some than for others. Sebastien Franck, Hans Denck, and Valentin Wiegel might have had positions closer to that of Sandhu Sundar Singh, mentioned above. More study is needed on them all...   

Quote from: Dallas on April 29, 2010, 07:50:17 PM
My question is, what reason or purpose would there need to be these people and what interest do you have in them?

I'm not the OP but I'll answer for myself (and bump up the same old thread for the second time, sorry) :D

The thing is, I have been told to base my faith on the Bible but in my opinion no-one can really understand that book very well. So many Christians are in disagreement with each other on what's "biblical".

If you're an UR believer then, to you, UR is biblical. If you believe in an endless hell then you regard ET as biblical. Annihilationists find support for their beliefs in the Bible, too.

In my country there's a perpetual debate going on between Lutherans and Pentecostals on the baptism question. Many Lutherans believe child baptism by sprinkling is biblical and you shouldn't get baptised second time whereas many Pentecostals insist child baptism "doesn't count" and that you should first become Born Again and then get baptised by immersion. Both camps have Scripture to back up their claims, have the Holy Spirit and know Jesus in their heart.

Rapture believers say their belief is Biblical, their opponents state rapture is unbiblical.

etc. etc. and the debates go on forever and ever (or unto the ages of ages if you will)  :laughing7:

So, with so much confusion existing I've started to wonder can't there be a more direct way to communicate with God than just "studying the Word"? Silent seeking, deep prayer, meditation, contemplation?

That's why I have interest in mysticism/mystics.

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/lordprayer/LP1.htm

 :cloud9: Yes, there is a more direct way to communicate with God. Ask for and then cultivate the gifts of the Spirit, that operate from the baptism in His Spirit  (which is the Holy Ghost) and ask for the hearing ear, because God gives the hearing ear. Blessings...

Liars in the Churches


http://kingdomlife.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1158

Good Read

 :cloud9: Hi.....didn't know the board was still going.....how are you doing?  :thumbsup:

The problem with the word mystic is that typically non christians use that word. Dreamers and visions through the holy spirit are usually called prophets. The only problem with being a prophet is that people are quick to label you a false prophet, and prophets are no longer as respected as they use to be.

 :cloud9: Pagans use the word, but I consider a true mystic one who knows mysteries. Paul was a mystic in that sense of the word, because he talked about knowing all mysteries. The parables are hiding mysteries of the kingdom. It's all in the motive of the heart, as always. Blessings...

Quote from: sven on February 26, 2010, 09:56:19 PM
I know of Sandhu Sundar Singh and the Germans Jakob Lorber and Johannes Greber

but I warn you, I consider them as occultists and advice you not consider their witness as having the least authority nor to deal too much with them they are as little an authority as Paul Wiese or Mary K. Baxter or any other self-claimed prophet, this is my opinion.

I've been rather interested in Singh lately, but discovered an enigma about him. It seems that he is well regarded among Christians of every stripe. His conversion was truly dramatic, much like that of St. Paul, he was well known for his Christ-likeness, he traveled much of the world preaching a sound Gospel, and always well admired by Orthodox and Evangelicals alike. He remained an Anglican after his conversion until his mysterious disappearance in 1929. To me, he was a "semi-universalist" if you can believe that's a possibility, teaching that most would eventually get to God's Kingdom, perhaps after ages of torment, but that Satan and the fallen angels, and their most hard-core human followers would remain in hell forever.

The enigma about him concerns his vision for the nation of Romania. The whole vision is described in rather poor English in a document about 10 pages long, declaring that Bucharest, Romania would soon become "the New Jerusalem", a spiritual center for all religions, and of a "new world Christian synod", replacing Rome, in particular. In the whole thing, the name of Jesus is only mentioned once- that being his description of himself as a convert of Jesus Christ. He starts the account by saying the vision was given to him by the "holy virgin". I find, when comparing this to accounts of many of his other visions, and to his many famous quotes about Christian discipleship to be very uncharacteristic, that Jesus would not be mentioned at all, and that the vision is attributed to the "holy virgin" instead.

In most accounts I've read about Sundar Singh, he is highly esteemed among Christians in general. But when you read the supposed account of his vision for Romania, it is very likely he could be viewed as an occultist. I have to wonder- is the Romania account actually a fraud?

 :cloud9: Sounds like if he was a true follower, perhaps the Catholic church decided to muddy the waters by having him have "holy virgin" vision? I don't think they were above falsifying documents to maintain their stranglehold on the populace. My  :2c: Blessings....

Mystics are those that would seek to actively commune with God, which is not quite the same as the role of a prophet. My  :2c: is that, like us, they're human and tend to interpret things through their experiences and world view. We all, as Paul said, see through the glass darkly. Looking back, I realise God was showing me His universal love for years, but I kept missing it because I kept seeing everything with hell tacked on the end. I reckon people who have visions etc are just as apt to interpret it according to their experiences. I know I have!

I love the writings of Julian of Norwich, the first English woman to write a book. She was definately a universalist but at the same time had the conflict of the Roman church dogma of the time. Some quotes:

"Because of the great, infinite love which God has for all humankind, he makes no distinction in love between the blessed soul of Christ and the lowliest of the souls that are to be saved . . . . We should highly rejoice that God dwells in our soul and still more highly should we rejoice that our soul dwells in God. Our soul is made to be God's dwelling place, and the dwelling place of our soul is God who was never made."

"You will not be overcome.God did not say you will not be troubled, You will not be belaboured, You will not be disquieted; But God said, You will not be overcome.All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well."

Quote from: Jael on July 23, 2010, 12:14:34 AM
Mystics are those that would seek to actively commune with God, which is not quite the same as the role of a prophet. My  :2c: is that, like us, they're human and tend to interpret things through their experiences and world view. We all, as Paul said, see through the glass darkly. Looking back, I realise God was showing me His universal love for years, but I kept missing it because I kept seeing everything with hell tacked on the end. I reckon people who have visions etc are just as apt to interpret it according to their experiences. I know I have!

I love the writings of Julian of Norwich, the first English woman to write a book. She was definately a universalist but at the same time had the conflict of the Roman church dogma of the time. Some quotes:

"Because of the great, infinite love which God has for all humankind, he makes no distinction in love between the blessed soul of Christ and the lowliest of the souls that are to be saved . . . . We should highly rejoice that God dwells in our soul and still more highly should we rejoice that our soul dwells in God. Our soul is made to be God's dwelling place, and the dwelling place of our soul is God who was never made."

"You will not be overcome.God did not say you will not be troubled, You will not be belaboured, You will not be disquieted; But God said, You will not be overcome.All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well."

So your saying a mystic are people who have dreams but a prophet is someone who has the power from up on high from the almighty to do great exploits. So in some sense were all mystics, most of us pray to God I think, but I don't think all christians dream that much, some people are more sensitive to spiritual things than others. I don't think the bible would define us as mystics though, I have not find a passage, let me know if you have found something. I have found references to that, "the spirit groaneth within us and crieth abba father", and also calling us "the privelage to be called the sons of God".

Gal 1:6  I wonder that ye are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news;
Gal 1:7  that is not another, except there be certain who are troubling you, and wishing to pervert the good news of the Christ;
Gal 1:8  but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you--anathema let him be!
Gal 1:9  as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive--anathema let him be!

Yeah, I know those verses.

But which Gospel IS the original, biblical good news? UR or ET?

btw, what does this mean?

25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;

[Rev 21:25]

Heaven's gates shall be always open. For who? For saved people who want to leave for hell?  :laughing7:

Quote from: Aleax on July 24, 2010, 11:22:15 AM

25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;

[Rev 21:25]

Heaven's gates shall be always open. For who? For saved people who want to leave for hell?  :laughing7:

Now that's funny.   :laugh2:

Quote from: Aleax on July 24, 2010, 11:22:15 AM
Yeah, I know those verses.

But which Gospel IS the original, biblical good news? UR or ET?

btw, what does this mean?

25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;

[Rev 21:25]

Heaven's gates shall be always open. For who? For saved people who want to leave for hell?  :laughing7:

It's open so that saints can explore earth if they wish, so a saint can still go fishing and doesn't have to live in the city. I hope so anyway, I don't like cities, I prefer the quiet life.

Quote from: Aleax on July 24, 2010, 11:22:15 AM
Yeah, I know those verses.

But which Gospel IS the original, biblical good news? UR or ET?

btw, what does this mean?

25 and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there;

[Rev 21:25]

Heaven's gates shall be always open. For who? For saved people who want to leave for hell?  :laughing7:

Please first tell me the GOOD NEWS in ET :sigh:

All deserve hell but 'the good news' saves a few from that destiny.
Something like that.

Never understood that myself.

Anyway, it is Hell accounts like Sundar Singh's that make any sense to me. He preached salvation through Cross so no "another gospel" being taught here IMO. It's his afterlife experiences that are a bit unorthodox but as I said, it is accounts like this that make any sense.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm

"After death the soul of every human being will enter the world of spirits, and every one, according to the stage of his spiritual growth, will dwell with spirits like in mind and in nature to himself, either in the darkness or in the light of glory."

Sounds like something a just and a loving God would do. I believe Cardinal once said she sees something like this in the Scriptures, even.

Quote from: Aleax on July 31, 2010, 02:53:28 PM
"After death the soul of every human being will enter the world of spirits, and every one, according to the stage of his spiritual growth, will dwell with spirits like in mind and in nature to himself, either in the darkness or in the light of glory."

Various NDEs showed something similar.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 31, 2010, 03:00:58 PM

Quote from: Aleax on July 31, 2010, 02:53:28 PM
"After death the soul of every human being will enter the world of spirits, and every one, according to the stage of his spiritual growth, will dwell with spirits like in mind and in nature to himself, either in the darkness or in the light of glory."

Various NDEs showed something similar.

I've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel, rather they promote All roads lead to God mentality. To me NDE's are mostly experienced by non Christians and the enemy Satan somehow transforms himself into the angel of light and shows them these visions. On the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.  :2c:

 :cloud9: If you think about it, in THIS life, all roads don't lead to God, but after death when the soul is with like minded spirits, as it says, after a season of purifying fire, all roads DID lead to God. Never thought about it like that until you posted that.

Do you see what I mean? Since He saves all, and some have to be after death, then the main difference is, some have a reward (from seeking Him in THIS life) and some lost everything by fire, BUT their own soul. Blessings...

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 07:02:25 PMI've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel,

Many NDEs are short. No lenghty stories like in those publised NDE books.

QuoteOn the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.

There are also verified NDEs of  people seeing their own surgery etc. The describe things they can't know.

willieH: Hi T-tank!  :hithere:  Me again!  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 07:02:25 PMI've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel, rather they promote All roads lead to God mentality. To me NDE's are mostly experienced by non Christians and the enemy Satan somehow transforms himself into the angel of light and shows them these visions.

What do you base this upon, T-tank?  Where is it stated that "satan" is able to "transform" itself?

And where is it said that a "being" named, ..."satan" ..."shows" others, ..."visions"?   :faint:

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 07:02:25 PMOn the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.  :2c:

More UNBIBLICAL conjecture... "demonic trickery" is "apparent"?  :omg: 

Where is it mentioned in the WORD, that "demons" are about, ..."trickery"?  Or even that they are "about"... anything? (i.e. manifesting a sentient agenda)  :dontknow:

This is "RELIGIOUS" blab (unfounded conjecture) of the highest order, without basis in the WORD, rather, is firmly embedded within the HEARSAY of RELIGIOUS tradition, which is "about" rendering what ACTUALLY ...IS... IN the WORD, of none effect -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13  :sigh:

Call me a skeptic but how does one know that a "mystics" message is from God?  If it lines up with the way we see scripture?  I believe there is a very good liklihood that none of us get any of this even close to it's entirety.  Personally, I would rather trust the word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 31, 2010, 08:50:17 PM

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 07:02:25 PMI've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel,

Many NDEs are short. No lenghty stories like in those publised NDE books.

QuoteOn the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.

There are also verified NDEs of  people seeing their own surgery etc. The describe things they can't know.

I'm not denying NDE doesn't  happen. I think that the spirit within us is able to think and go anywhere in the universe, dreams etc, but it still attaches itself to the body via a spiritual cord, similar to the baby cord that attaches a baby to it's mother. Some witches who travel, say they have a cord attached to their body so they can go and travel, a bit like a spaceman who needs the cord attached to the spaceship in order to keep connected/alive.
I think the apostle Paul said, if there be no resurection then is not your faith in vain and those who are asleep perish.

Quote from: willieH on July 31, 2010, 09:37:01 PM
willieH: Hi T-tank!  :hithere:  Me again!  :laughing7:

Stop picking on me :sigh:

If you want to learn, that's fine. :thumbsup:

I find it a pleasure that you feel comfortable enough and to ask of me these questions.



What do you base this upon, T-tank?  Where is it stated that "satan" is able to "transform" itself?

And where is it said that a "being" named, ..."satan" ..."shows" others, ..."visions"?   :faint:


More UNBIBLICAL conjecture... "demonic trickery" is "apparent"?  :omg: 

Where is it mentioned in the WORD, that "demons" are about, ..."trickery"?  Or even that they are "about"... anything? (i.e. manifesting a sentient agenda)  :dontknow:

This is "RELIGIOUS" blab (unfounded conjecture) of the highest order, without basis in the WORD, rather, is firmly embedded within the HEARSAY of RELIGIOUS tradition, which is "about" rendering what ACTUALLY ...IS... IN the WORD, of none effect -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13  :sigh:

...willieH  :happy3:

Here is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people. Draw your own conclusions, ask God to teach you, if you desire to know the truth of this matter, may the lord guide you in your quest.

The angel of light

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

2 Thessalonians 2:8,9

Maybe this is too strong to bare, so I'll show you these scriptures

2 Corinthians 2:11

Acts 16:16

A woman of "divination", sounds familiar? here is a definition from wickipedia



Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god"[2], related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of a standardized process or ritual.[3] Diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency.


Who else did the power of God overcome?

Acts 13:8, 12

Here Paul is calling a sorcerer a child of the devil.


who does Jesus call the devil?


Here is a poweful spirit who overcomes and is able to tear off the clothes of these excorcists and also speak.

Acts 19:,13,16

But this must be some kind of disease??

Acts 19:11,12

healed disease AND THE ???

Devil an angel of light?
Who said the devil, looked like a monster? :dontknow:pop culture or the bible?


this monster is able to deceive learned men that he is good or god.


2 Corinthians 11:13-15

1 john 4:1,3

I have more to tell you concerning the devil, on my reply to your other thread, if you are able to bare it, so be prepared.

Personally, the NDE issue isn't any different than someone seeing their loved ones in hell in a dream.  Not fully understanding how the human mind can conjure up images, conversations, events, experiences that have never taken place can turn into a stumbling block should we choose to give ourselves over to this type of thinking.

The one resounding thing that continues to surface and resonate in me when I read threads like this is that one, we don't think like God thinks so our conclusions are shaky at best.  And two, it's not about what images we see that we rely on as God speaking to us, but it's the "sound" from which the messages come. 

Satan appearing as an angel of light . . .how many times have you come across a person who sees themselves as a good and just person and yet you know what's in their closets?  My mind can decieve me that my message is of the light . . .angel merely means messenger.  We're all angels in that sense.  We are all messengers bringing forth a message of whatever the topics are.

Many of us all think we're right . . .yet "someone" has to be wrong because often times, our conversations are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum.  Satan simply means adversary.  My mind is always at emnity . . .my mind is an adversary to spiritual principles. 

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

My mind is not subject to the law of God.  What's that saying?  To me it's saying my mind not only does it not "want" to submit to the laws of God . . .which by the way are Loving God and Loving neighbors . .just the two is all that's necessary. . .But not only does my mind not 'want' to submit to spiritual principles, it "can't".  That's why he adds "neither indeed can be."

The mind inflates pride.  Pride will not ever admit that it's wrong.  In fact, pride will often become obsessed about splitting hairs on what's right or wrong so that it can boast about it's being right.  Even to the point to where the mind will decieve "me" into thinking that "this" is the unforgiving truth regardless of another's experience.

But on the other hand, the humble heart is the one bearing the true light.  Humility is God's greatest sign of his truth in a human being.  Humility tears down walls and opens doors in hearts of darkness.  Pride just reinforces those walls and closed doors and tries to defend it's reputation.

Satan as an angel of light . . .yup.  But it's not some invisible fallen angel with a long tail and a pitchfork.  It's my own imagination at work in me.  I've yet to come across any passage in Scripture that is speaking about a devil or evil spirit where that situation can't be identified as a subconscious misalignment of either control, or simple sanity.  The boy throwing himself into a fire, the guy running naked in a graveyard, the woman following Paul around . . .the authority in Christ and Paul was the Father manifesting spiritual authority over the mental state of each person and each situation.  Jesus could even talk "to" the sickness . . .we have the God-birthed power to bring life or death through the words we speak because this atmosphere we live in is created in such a way that our voice commands influence things our eyes can't see but it happens nonetheless.

Religion has turned these things into imps and demons.  When Jesus proclaimed he'd come to set the captive free, he wasn't talking about demonic prisons, he was talking about mindsets and mental strongholds.  Oh, I'll still lay my hands on a person and "call it out" but no longer do I believe I'm calling out a spirit, I believe I'm simply realigning the order of the spirit and soul within the persons body standing in front of me.

Excellent words, Nathan.   :thumbsup:

A passage has been ringing in me since I posted this and so I want to throw it out to you for those who may be cringing at what I've shared concerning most of what the church has claimed to be demonic activity is more mental activity than demons possessing people.

Much of our directive when dealing with demons comes from Ephesians 6.
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

How can I say that most of, if not all of what we're dealing with is an inward battle of the mind of man rather than an outward battle against invisible evil spirits when clearly here it's stating we're not dealing with flesh and blood?  For me, my mind is not flesh and it's not blood, it's carnality.  

Anything not godly is ungodly.  Anything ungodly is carnal.  It's flesh.  And my body of flesh is highly influenced by the constant pull of fleshly things.  "That's" the battle.  It doesn't have to be sexual or addictive such as drugs or booze.  Religion can be just as volital as any other carnal high.

But none of this explains the "powers" and "rulers" and "authorities in high places"  "Evil in the heavenly realm".  Okay, if you're one that would rather rely on what you read in Scripture than what the nature of God "sounds" in you, compare Ephesians 6 with 2 Corinthians 10.

3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Uh oh, maybe I'm wrong?  This sounds very much like the same thing he's telling Ephesus.  And it is.  It's the same message.  But it's not about imps and demons and standing in the highest place of your city and praying against spiritual strong holds.  Look at where Paul takes this.

5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ

This war Paul is talking about is about the battles of men's minds against each other.  This isn't about demons, it's about thoughts!  It's about verbal attacks against those who don't see doctrines as we see doctrines.  King James put it as the casting down of imaginations . . .

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

I like that reference also about "every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God . . ."  that is the abomination of desolation, that's what Daniel saw and Jesus referenced.  He saw the beast "standing" in the temple . .at the most high place.  What?  Know ye not that "you" are the temple?  That thing standing in your throne is your carnal mind and it's the abomination because that's your Eve feeding your Adam all over again.  She's always desiring after your spirit.  she's always wanting that throne, that control.  that's what she does, she craves power.

"That's" what we fight against.  Our weapons don't come through elevated ministries.  They come through prayer . .what's that?  That's communion with the Father.  Relationship births revelation, Revelation manifests Truth, and Truth sets us free.  From what?  Free from our minds taking control of our throne-room.

I think I may have just hi-jacked a thread . . .crap.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses;
but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.

He is the mighty counselor and prince of peace.

Yes I watched an ostrich once

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2010, 08:38:42 AM
Yes I watched an ostrich once

A large, two-toed, swift-footed flightless bird?   :laughing7:

Quote from: shawn on July 31, 2010, 10:08:04 PM
Call me a skeptic but how does one know that a "mystics" message is from God?  If it lines up with the way we see scripture?  I believe there is a very good liklihood that none of us get any of this even close to it's entirety.  Personally, I would rather trust the word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.

I never had a vision, NDE or HS experience but I wonder how you know there is a "HS presence". It may be as obvious to you as to the people who had a NDE. If NDEs of others can't be trusted how do you know your own experience can be trusted?

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:10:38 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 31, 2010, 08:50:17 PM

QuoteOn the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.

There are also verified NDEs of  people seeing their own surgery etc. The describe things they can't know.

I'm not denying NDE doesn't  happen. I think that the spirit within us is able to think and go anywhere in the universe, dreams etc, but it still attaches itself to the body via a spiritual cord,

Not sure what you mean by a spiritual cord. NDE people where nearly dead. So not completely. Is that the cord you mean?

 :cloud9: I agree with all that but....... my  :2c: I have to add that we are told to keep our heart/soul with all diligence, because out of it comes the issues of life. Those issues of life are the same as the woman/soul with an issue of blood. What she had was what comes out of a man's mouth (womb-mouth) that defiles him.

The blood of Adam that has the soulish life. That blood comes out of our mouth/soul/heart, and creates, and what it creates is our own wickedness that He reproves us with.

Imaginations are BIRTHED and take form (sin when it has CONCEIVED, bringeth forth death), and those forms have a physical presence, though invisible unless He opens your eyes to see them.

This is why He had them to weave cherubim (means imaginations) in the veil. The veil is what is formed by the eating of the shewbread in the light of the candlestick. He did this deliberately, to keep man out, for no man comes to the Father except the Father call him.

In so doing, He insured that NO DOCTRINE would be able to bring us into His presence, because they ALL have cherubims woven into them. These cherubim can only be revealed by Him. This is why Paul said, he knew nothing but Christ and Him crucified.

All has to go on the altar but that, as we cry out for mercy for ourselves and for our brethren (altar of incense) as the High Priest did on the day of atonement.

And so, these imaginations, these fiery darts of the wicked (the heart of man is continually wicked all the day long), they have a smell, can be felt, can change physical surroundings, have a taste (metallic = iron in blood, iron speaks of judgement), and if a full fledged demon, leave a "slimy" film on it's intended victim, for lack of a better word. Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on July 31, 2010, 08:42:19 PM
:cloud9: If you think about it, in THIS life, all roads don't lead to God, but after death when the soul is with like minded spirits, as it says, after a season of purifying fire, all roads DID lead to God. Never thought about it like that until you posted that.

Do you see what I mean? Since He saves all, and some have to be after death, then the main difference is, some have a reward (from seeking Him in THIS life) and some lost everything by fire, BUT their own soul. Blessings...

This is good! Perhaps though, we could think of it as being one single straight and narrow road (Jesus) in THIS life, and a whole bunch of other twisty, round-about routes by which they who die eventually get there(?)

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: You know what? That "all roads lead to Jesus" that the New Ager's think, is a "backwards" confirmation in a way, OF UR. Because all lies are perverted truth, because Satan can't do anything but mimic something of God. In this case, UR. Blessings....

How many roads?

There are only two inflectional points of an apparent path.
Life and death, which changes the way we think or act.

peacemaker

 :cloud9: That's true, too.... :thumbsup:

Iv'e found a slight problem here though card. Ok so what you are saying is that when we dwell in temples of clay, we call upon the name of Jesus and we be saved, but those who spirits (people )who dwell within clay who don't confess Jesus as lord, die but then are to be purged.

Do you see the problem here?

Why can't they confess Christ when they are without the temple, then they would'nt have to be purged.

 :cloud9: The spirit returns to the One who gave it, the soul is another matter, and that is what goes through the fire......my  :2c: blessings.....

Trust in the Spirit with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge what is, and your
path will be made straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; have reverence for the truth of things, and turn away from evil.
It will be a healing for your soul and refreshment to your body.

peace

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :cloud9:

I actually was entertained by the "drama" you propose severak times below... that your words might be "too much for me to ...bear"!   :laugh:

I have been a student of the WORD for 34+ years bro... and spent MOST of those years believing the "fables" you believe now...

We are all on the pathway which is directed by YHVH... so I do not condemn you for your present position and observation... it is just for the most part, VEILED and is held by you despite being contrary to REASON... which MUST be included in our observations and communications with YHVH -- Isaiah 1:18

Let see... here is a brief outline of your position as a Christian who believes in OTHER than the SALVATION of ALL,  ...and that which you TEACH to others:

GOD created MAN... and set him alive upon the Earth (without his consent)... and before this, "satan"... was an INVISIBLE being of the MOST POWER aside from GOD ...was placed upon the earth along with 1/3 of the INNUMERABLE Heavenly ANGELS, because they had "rebelled" against GOD, for NO specified REASON, all which took place in a PERFECT [complete] PLACE (Heaven)... (which also, in turn means that "heaven" is NO longer PERFECT -- which means COMPLETE, ...for "satan" and 1/3 of the innumerable angels are NO LONGER there)...

Then in his first few days of LIFE, ...ADAM (Adam being literally an innocent BABY) had to find a way to OBEY GOD in his life DESPITE these INNUMERABLE "beings" which were WAY more powerful and WAY more knowledgeable, and WAY (eternally) more tactically EXPERIENCED (after all they had just fought a "war" against the ALMIGHTY for NO REASON),  ...and from persuading him to be DISOBEDIENT!!!  (areya still with me T-tank?)

Then when ADAM made the FATAL mistake of listening to these INNUMERABLE, INVISIBLE and VERY POWERFUL, ETERNALLY OLD, formerly ANGELIC beings ...GOD became ANGRY, and then decided to BLAME Adam for that disobedience (instead of the demons), and in that decision, also decided to pass that BLAME upon ALL of Adam's future decendents (ALL of MANKIND to follow), causing them to ALL be SINNERS as was their forefather...  (...am I going to fast?)

Then, ...GOD decides to put the decision of gaining LIFE concerning ETERNITY,  in the hands of these FINITE, dumb, easily persuaded, SINFULLY sheepish, ...MEN who were descendent of ADAM, ...who also could not see, hear or speak to either GOD or SATAN or any of the INNUMERABLE "demons"... yet were FORCED (without their consent) to fight a battle against them...  and if indeed they "LOST" this BATTLE, ...they would either (take your pick) 

• (1) Be TORMENTED FOREVER by GOD in Literal FIRE... for their "vapor of a life" in the flesh, because of falling for the deceptions of these innumerable, INVISIBLE and much MORE POWERFUL "demons"... or


• (2) Just plain MURDER them for their indescretions in that "vapor of a life", ...by BURNING them to death instead...

:omg:  :omg:  :omg: ...could ANY story be MORE FAR-FETCHED and UNREALISTIC than that?  :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:

Quote from: willieH on July 31, 2010, 09:37:01 PM
willieH: Hi T-tank!  :hithere:  Me again!  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMStop picking on me :sigh:

If you do not wish to be challenged, then don't post!  If you post with supporting Scripture which actually parallels what YOU STATE in your own words, ...then teaching might be available in what you say. 

If you just post your own words... then OPINION is all that appears.

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMIf you want to learn, that's fine. :thumbsup:

I am always up for learning, which is why I come to Tentmaker!  As well as sharing that which I have learned myself.

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMI find it a pleasure that you feel comfortable enough and to ask of me these questions.

It might just be the case that you overestimate my questions as flattering. 

I am very comfortable in asking questions, but in this case, they are asked because you propose (as does science oftentimes), things as if they are FACTS without supporting data which establish their assertions as FACTUAL... we shall see.

Quote from: willieH on July 31, 2010, 09:37:01 PMWhat do you base this upon, T-tank?  Where is it stated that "satan" is able to "transform" itself?

And where is it said that a "being" named, ..."satan" ..."shows" others, ..."visions"?   :faint:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMHere is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people.

MAN?  You believe "satan" to be a MAN, T-tank?  What Scripture names "satan" as a MAN, brother T-tank? :dunno:

And if a "satan" is a "man", then "satan" must needs be descendent of ADAM who was the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45

How can this be?  How could "satan" persuade ADAM to sin, and yet, as YOU just CLAIMED in your own words (that "satan" is a "MAN"), which therefore requires him to be a DESCENDENT of ADAM, the FIRST MAN?  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMDraw your own conclusions, ask God to teach you, if you desire to know the truth of this matter, may the lord guide you in your quest.

Thanks, YHVH God is ALWAYS my Guide within my quest to know His TRUTH...

Will you, in the same regard, consider my reply to you? (ask God to teach you, if you desire to know the truth of "this matter") :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMThe angel of light

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

Sorry but this Scriptural passage does not indicate that "satan" is --

(1) a man --
(2) a sentient "being", or --
(3) that "transformation" is born of that (supposed) sentience... :mnah:

Verse 11 --

(1)  actually depicts that "adversity" proposes ITSELF as an angel of light... For example, the carnal shall think fleshly pleasure (erotic) as "LOVE", ...in the stead of  what is TRULY LOVE and which is NOT of the FLESH, but spiritual... 

(2)  Is not depicting that a sentient "being" of darkness, is somehow TRANSFORMING Himself into an "angel of light"...

How can DARKNESS transform into LIGHT?  Have you ever witnessed "DARK" making itself "LIGHT"?  :mshock:

This Scripture -- 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 -- is speaking of the FALSE teachings of CHRISTIANITY, which within their ADVERSITY [satan], propose to the WORLD that GOD SO LOVES...  That He shall BURN MOST of them for ETERNITY [ET] or BURN MOST of THEM UP, by MURDERING them [ED]... which is the type of dialogue that often spews forth from YOUR own tongue! 

YOU have already been shown that the WORD condemns such use of the TONGUE -- James 3:6-12 -- which brings forth the FORK TONGUED message that begins by noting the BLESSING of "God's LOVE", and then eventually in its misguided crooked agenda, includes the CURSING of "God's CONDEMNATION"...  :thumbdown:

The church in its varying and disfunctionally ADVERSE state presenting LIES which are contrary to the workings of GRACE, and which are busily serving SELF in the process (not including themselves in any condemnations), proclaiming SALVATION for themselves, as they CONDEMN others to either UNENDING TORMENT or a quick "divine murder" = ED/Annhilation, ...and then claim they are SENT with this message, claiming it to be the GOSPEL...  :sigh: :rolleye:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AM2 Thessalonians 2:8,9

Maybe this is too strong to bare, so I'll show you these scriptures

I thank you for the kind concern expressed T-tank, but actually I find this somewhat humorous.  :laughhand:

That you have swallowed, hook, line and sinker, the fallacy of this commonly accepted Christian theology -- which lives upon the SURFACE of  Spiritual vision, is an experience that I have already traversed, and have long since (10 yrs ago), disengaged myself from it...

This Scripture -- 2 Thessalonians 2:8,9 -- is not speaking of a mythical being called "satan", it is speaking of MAN and the HEART of MAN, which is DECEITFUL above ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9

It is YOU which sits in the TEMPLE of GOD, T-tank -- 1 Cor 3:16 -- Luke 17:21 -- showing YOURSELF (wherever you are not submitted) that you are "god", as you in that INSUBMISSION, violate HIS temple, and misuse it... especially the member known as the TONGUE within your condemnation "gospel", ignoring the Scriptural REBUKE given by James -- James 3:6-15 -- which he names as "DEVILISH"...  :dontknow:

A message which is not associated with PEACE, for which the GOSPEL in the WORD is NAMED -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

As long as you present GOD to be the MURDEROUS MONSTER that you DO, then it is YOU which sits in the TEMPLE and DEFIES the ALL ENCOMPASSING GRACE which is given to ALL within His PERFECT IMPARTIALITY to them...

Teaching instead of this TRUTH, such perversions as this: where GRACE abounded, SIN did much more abound... For SIN overcomes GRACE as depicted in the destruction (divine murder/annhilation) of ANYONE ...that is, ...except you of course! :rolleye:

What PEACE is found in ANNHILATION, T-tank?  :dontknow:  Wherein is LOVE within its deed?  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?  :mshock:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AM2 Corinthians 2:11

Again, this Scripture -- Corinthians 2:11 -- does not designate "satan" as a sentient being, or any other type of being for that matter...

The pronoun [his=autos] used in this text can be translated as any of the following:  "he, she, IT, them, himself, herself, itself, etc."  So insertion of the PRINCIPALITY of ADVERSITY [which is what "satan" actually means] can manifest this verse to say:

2 Cor 2:11 -- Lest adversity [no cap necessary]  should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of ITS devices...  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMActs 16:16

A woman of "divination", sounds familiar? here is a definition from wickipedia

Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god"[2], related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of a standardized process or ritual.[3] Diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency.

That MEN often display the attribute of ADVERSITY, worthy being called "satan" (see Matt 16:23 -- Luke 4:8), certainly does not disassociate them from the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY... the above noted verse is NO DIFFERENT than the address of Peter by CHRIST.

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMWho else did the power of God overcome?

I do not argue that ADVERSITY is that which the power of God overcomes... I just maintain that IT is a principality, not a being.

When you "overcome" a problematic scenario in your life which is sinful, you do not overcome a being... you "overcome" an unlawful misbehavior

The WORD does not say that "where "satan" abounded, GRACE did much more abound" , ...

The WORD does SAY -- where SIN  [missing the mark=transgression of the LAW] abounded, GRACE did much more abound -- Rom 5:20

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMActs 13:8, 12

Here Paul is calling a sorcerer a child of the devil.

As long as you envision an unfair plan, exacted for NO REASON, upon man BY GOD, you shall find this "red guy"  and "his trusty pitchfork" poking you in the rear... encasing you in FEAR of that which does NOT EXIST, and which is NOT PART of the MESSAGE of the Gospel, OR Love, OR Peace...

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMwho does Jesus call the devil?

Peter! -- Matt 16:23 -- Mark 8:33 -- Luke 4:8 --  :laughing7:

So is Peter, ..."satan", T-tank?  If he is not, why should the WORD call him such?

As I have amply noted... "satan" is a principality of ADVERSITY and is our "adversary"... It is ourselves that must die in our lives giving way to CHRIST, not some "halloween character"...

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMHere is a poweful spirit who overcomes and is able to tear off the clothes of these excorcists and also speak.

Acts 19:,13,16

But this must be some kind of disease??

There is no denying that the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY ["satan"] inherent in MAN is a POWERFUL spirit, which cannot be separated from him, except via the WORK of CHRIST... and the Father who is WORKING ALL THINGS...

The heart of MAN is deceitful above ALL things, to include itself... which decieves itself into thinking that another being ["satan"] is at fault or to blame for the SIN which befalls him.

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMActs 19:11,12

healed disease AND THE ???

The same "spirits" which encumbered PETER, encumber you bro... And the varying host of SINFULNESS in you is not a bunch of "demons", which your theology claims to be an army commanded by "satan"... rather it is ALL YOU... and when YOU give account, you shall NOT blame any such myths... you shall only KNOW that the SINS committed in your life were forthcoming of YOU... and YOU ALONE...

If "satan" were accountable for "TRICKING YOU", then "satan" would be giving account of your sins, not YOU.

Btw... you never answered as to the Scripture that supports "demonic trickery"   :OhNo:

Are you going to respond?  Or do we just "chalk it up" to another of your Unbiblical assertions?  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMDevil an angel of light?
Who said the devil, looked like a monster? :dontknow: pop culture or the bible?

Interesting that you bring this up... for Christianity has composed its OWN versions of who and what "satan" is in their outreach materials, tracts and art... not to mention that depiction of this NON EXISTENT, NEVER SEEN "being" is seen in the many  periodicals and literature of the church in its varying divisions, ALL share their picture of this myth, with NO FOUNDATION nor Heavenly mandate to do so...

Any perceptions of "satan" as a monster are readily available at your nearest "Christian bookstore"...  Bill Wiese's book for one... have you heard of this book?  Do you believe it?

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMthis monster is able to deceive learned men that he is good or god.

Monster?  I thought he was a "man"? As you noted above, and I copy HERE:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AMHere is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people.

What is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...  :laughing7:

Or is the TRUTH, that "satan" is the natural adversity IN MAN, and NOT -- an EXISTENT invisible ghostly omnipresent, almost as powerful as God, foolishness, created by the theology of religionists which perpetuate this FEAR which is NOT part of LOVE, nor of the GOSPEL of PEACE which is of GOD?  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AM2 Corinthians 11:13-15

I have already noted your misunderstanding of this one, above as well... not much sense in repeating it...

Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2010, 01:15:42 AM1 john 4:1,3

I have more to tell you concerning the devil, on my reply to your other thread, if you are able to bare it, so be prepared.

Trust me T-tank... I have been in ministry for 34+ years and you can hardly inform me of things on this subject that I have not already heard before... Many of which I was in conformity with, during my involvement with the Salvation Army (20 yrs) and the SDA church (5 yrs)...

That you are immersed in this self-deception is hardly something that is hard for me to "bear"... it is your burden to carry... which is based and affected by and amongst other false beliefs that you propose on Tentmaker...

You have yet to post a verse which proves that "satan" is a sentient being with an agenda...

Answer this question if you are able...

Quote from: willieHMore UNBIBLICAL conjecture... THINKTANK ---> "demonic trickery" is "apparent"?  :omg: 

Where is it mentioned in the WORD, that "demons" are about, ..."trickery"?  Or even that they are "about"... anything? (i.e. manifesting a sentient agenda)  :dontknow:

Well T-tank?  Where is "demonic trickery" mentioned in the WORD of GOD, not just YOUR WORDS?

Here is a good analogy of what you are trying to say here WillieH

QuoteGOD created MAN... and set him alive upon the Earth (without his consent)... and before this, "satan"... was an INVISIBLE being of the MOST POWER aside from GOD ...was placed upon the earth along with 1/3 of the INNUMERABLE Heavenly ANGELS, because they had "rebelled" against GOD, for NO specified REASON, all which took place in a PERFECT [complete] PLACE (Heaven)... (which also, in turn means that "heaven" is NO longer PERFECT -- which means COMPLETE, ...for "satan" and 1/3 of the innumerable angels are NO LONGER there)...

Then in his first few days of LIFE, ...ADAM (Adam being literally an innocent BABY) had to find a way to OBEY GOD in his life DESPITE these INNUMERABLE "beings" which were WAY more powerful and WAY more knowledgeable, and WAY (eternally) more tactically EXPERIENCED (after all they had just fought a "war" against the ALMIGHTY for NO REASON),  ...and from persuading him to be DISOBEDIENT!!!  (areya still with me T-tank?)

Then when ADAM made the FATAL mistake of listening to these INNUMERABLE, INVISIBLE and VERY POWERFUL, ETERNALLY OLD, formerly ANGELIC beings ...GOD became ANGRY, and then decided to BLAME Adam for that disobedience (instead of the demons), and in that decision, also decided to pass that BLAME upon ALL of Adam's future decendents (ALL of MANKIND to follow), causing them to ALL be SINNERS as was their forefather...  (...am I going to fast?)

Then, ...GOD decides to put the decision of gaining LIFE concerning ETERNITY,  in the hands of these FINITE, dumb, easily persuaded, SINFULLY sheepish, ...MEN who were descendent of ADAM, ...who also could not see, hear or speak to either GOD or SATAN or any of the INNUMERABLE "demons"... yet were FORCED (without their consent) to fight a battle against them...  and if indeed they "LOST" this BATTLE, ...they would either (take your pick)

    * (1) Be TORMENTED FOREVER by GOD in Literal FIRE... for their "vapor of a life" in the flesh, because of falling for the deceptions of these innumerable, INVISIBLE and much MORE POWERFUL "demons"... or
    * (2) Just plain MURDER them for their indescretions in that "vapor of a life", ...by BURNING them to death instead...

Hell is an unattended stove (http://new.exchristian.net/2010/05/hell-is-unattended-stove.html)

Quote from: Shadow on August 02, 2010, 11:51:49 AMHell is an unattended stove (http://new.exchristian.net/2010/05/hell-is-unattended-stove.html)

Link on that page:
There is no hell (http://www.thereisnohell.com/)
Did Jesus believe in hell? (http://ricklannoye.com/Did%20Jesus%20Believe%20in%20Hell.pdf)

Jesus' Anti-Hell Sayings


1. "Just suggesting that God burn people with fire as a punishment for rejecting me is Satan talk!" Lk. 9:54-56

2. "I directly identify with all who suffer pain, and seek to relieve them of it." Mt. 25:40

3. "Just as God never stops forgiving those who sin against him, never stop forgiving those who sin against you." Mt. 6:12, 18:22; Lk. 11:4

4. "The Church will knock down the gates of Hell to let everyone out!" Mt. 16:18

5. "Father [God], forgive even those who commit the worst sins against me [You], because they don't really know what they're doing." Lk. 23:34

6. "I am against punishment, equal or not. Instead, never return pain for pain." Mt 5:39, Lk. 6.29

7. "I am the Good Shepherd who will never give up until I save the last, lost sheep [soul]!" Lk. 15:4

8. "God goes out of his way to have sinners in his [holy] presence in order to cure them." Mt. 9:12, Mk. 2:17, Lk. 4:23

9. "Because God is perfect, he doesn't punish those who sin against him but loves, blesses and does good to them instead." Mt. 5:43-48

10. "Since God is merciful and kind, even to the unthankful and evil, do unto all others as you would have them do to you." Mt. 7:7-12, Lk. 6:27-36

There is an enemy of God, but he is the nachash, not satan.  Although we have come to call the nachash 'satan' over time, it is not exactly accurate.  The nachash is the serpent being first seen in Gen 3:1, and yes, he is an enemy of God.  I'm glad to finally get this cleared up for myself.





The Absence of Satan in the Old Testament
Posted By MSH on February 1, 2010

Several commenters to the last post asked for some information on the satan.

Although English Bibles continue the practice of capitalizing the word "satan" in passages like Job 1 and 2, those passage do not have a specific individual in mind — that is, "satan" in these passages should *not* be understood as a proper personal name.

The reason for this is straightforward. In biblical Hebrew, the definite article (the word "the) is a single letter (heh). Hebrew prefixes (attaches) the definite article to a noun (or participle to make it a substantive) so that, like all languages that have definite articles, the noun is made specific. Biblical Hebrew does not, however, put the definite article (the word "the") on proper personal nouns (personal names).  In this respect, Hebrew is like English. I don't call myself "the Mike".No one (except maybe Donald Trump  ) puts the word "the" in front of their first name. Hebrew simply does not do this at all. As the well known biblical Hebrew reference grammar by Jouon-Muraoka notes: "No proper noun of person takes the article, not even when it has the form of an adjective or a participle."[1.Paul Joüon and Takamitsu Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Editrice Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2003; 2005), vol. 2:505; Par 137.b.]

Without exception, the word "satan" in Job occurs *with* the article. This indicates quite clearly that "satan" is *not* a personal name. It is generic, and means "the adversary". The word can be used of human beings (1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:23; 1 Kings 5:18; 1 Kings 11:14). All of these examples have "satan" without the article, but the referent is a human being, not a divine being, so we don't have "Satan" here either.

In terms of statistics, the noun "satan" occurs 27 times in the Hebrew Bible, ten times *without* the article.

Of these ten, seven refer to human beings and two refer to the Angel of Yahweh for sure. The lone outlier is 1 Chron 21:1. This is the famous passage where "Satan" provokes David to take a census, but in the parallel passage, 2 Sam 24:1-25, it's Yahweh provoking David to take the census. Due to this parallel, and due to the fact that "satan" here has no article, this is viewed by some as the single instance of an evil, cosmic figure called "satan" in the OT.  It actually isn't, though. If you're familiar with my work on the two Yahwehs in the OT, the parallel (Yahweh-satan) is striking to you. The "satan" figure here is none other than the Angel of Yahweh — and so this instance without the article is akin to the two instances in the book of Numbers where "satan" was used of the Angel. This relieves the "is Yahweh Satan?" question and any notion of contradiction — since it would mean BOTH passages have Yahweh provoking David — one appears to be the invisible Yahweh; the other is the visible Yahweh.

There's actually been a good recent article on why the satan in 1 Chron 21:1 is the Angel.  The article is freely available online, so I've posted it here as a PDF.  Consider this one fact that the article notes.  It is in THIS passage that, after verse 1 mentions the "satan" provoking David, we read the Angel is there "with a sword drawn in his hand". The Hebrew phrasing behind this occurs only three other times: Joshua 5:13 and Numbers 22:23, 31. ALL of these references are the Angel of Yahweh. and in one of them (Num. 22) he is the satan.

This would mean there are ZERO verses in the OT that have a personal name "satan", and ZERO references to Satan as a cosmic evil entity as in the NT.

So where does this leave us?

Basically, "the satan" in Job is an officer of the divine council (sort of like a prosecutor). His job is to "run to and fro throughout the earth" to see who is and who is not obeying Yahweh. When he finds someone who isn't and is therefore under Yahweh's wrath, he "accuses" that person. This is what we see in Job — and it actually has a distinct New Testament flavor. (We also see it in Zechariah 3). But the point here is that this satan is not evil; he's doing his job. Over time (specifically the idea of "being an adversary in the heavenly council" was applied intellectually to the enemy of God — the nachash (typically rendered "serpent") in Eden, the one who asserted his own will against Yahweh's designs. That entity eventually becomes labeled "Satan" and so the adversarial role gets personified and stuck to God's great enemy (also called the Devil). This is a good example of how an idea in Israelite religion plays out and is applied in different ways during the progress of revelation.

www.michaelsheiser.com



Who is Michael S Heiser?



Mike Heiser earned the M.A. and Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 2004.  Before attending the UW-Madison, Mike earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (major fields: Ancient Israel and Egyptology).  Mike was hired as the Academic Editor of Logos Bible Software shortly after completing his Ph.D. Before joining Logos, Mike spent twelve years teaching biblical studies, history, and biblical languages on the undergraduate level.

Mike's main research interests are Israelite religion (especially Israel's divine council), biblical theology, ancient Near Eastern religion, biblical & ancient Semitic languages, and ancient Jewish binitarian monotheism. His dissertation was entitled, "The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature."

www.drmsh.com

 

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2010, 11:19:34 AM

Quote from: shawn on July 31, 2010, 10:08:04 PM
Call me a skeptic but how does one know that a "mystics" message is from God?  If it lines up with the way we see scripture?  I believe there is a very good liklihood that none of us get any of this even close to it's entirety.  Personally, I would rather trust the word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.

I never had a vision, NDE or HS experience but I wonder how you know there is a "HS presence". It may be as obvious to you as to the people who had a NDE. If NDEs of others can't be trusted how do you know your own experience can be trusted?

First, I don't know these people nor their walk or motivations.  I'm not saying these individuals shouldn't trust their own experiences.  I'm saying how am I to trust their experiences?  Do, I trust my own?  Yes.  But, I don't ask anyone to trust my experience.  I tell them to seek and they shall find.  God will give them their own experience with his love, grace and mercy. 

But, if you are wanting to get into a philosophical debate about should one trust their own experiences that's a whole other thread.  I have had these debates with believers, agnostics and atheists.  There is alot of circular arguments on both sides and it usually leads to futility.

Hello my aquaintance, I find it interesting how you interpret the scriptures I gave you. Rather amusing. I guess i'm not the only one with a creative imagination ey.  :grin:

It's intriging how you rant on about annihilation, when we are discussing the devil.

What PEACE is found in ANNHILATION, T-tank?    Wherein is LOVE within its deed?  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?

God destroyed the world and MURDERED as you like to say People in a flood, during Noahs time, what do you say to people who ask you this question? Do you call it a spiritual flood??

More sayings about annhilation, when we are discussing the devil? Your feelings betray you my son, it shows the true issue here, that the devil for you poses a problem for your beliefs, so you must invent unscriptural ideas about who the devil is, to be honest I don't think you have a clue of who or what the devil is, your like

Is he a bird, is he a plane, Is he a snake, is he a man, is he a monster, is he a imp with a pitchfork, no he's a principality, but what's a principality, I don't know, nooooooo :dontknow:

But the holy ghost betrayed your thoughts and did find the truth in a moment of revelation, which your mind cannot currently accept, due to certain issues you have, as I said, you might not currently bare them, your boastings about being a Christian for 34 years means little, we all are being worked upon by the master potter.

There is no denying that the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY ["satan"] inherent in MAN is a POWERFUL spirit, which cannot be separated from him, except via the WORK of CHRIST... and the Father who is WORKING ALL THINGS...

You said "no denying SATAN in man IS A POWERFUL SPIRIT, that cannot be seperated from him, except via the WORK of Christ",
Do you know one of the works of Christ is CASTING OUT DEMONS, I guess that's the holy ghost working upon you. :thumbsup:

What is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...

It's already been revealed to me via the WORD and the Holy Ghost. Since you already have had this revelation as demonstrated in this post, then holy ghost is already working upon you and you can either resist or collaberate.

it is your burden to carry... which is based and affected by and amongst other false beliefs that you propose on Tentmaker...

Some of my posts are simply opinions and questions just like all here, especially you, but when it comes to this topic of the devil, this is a tried and tested doctrine, held by many here. It is not a burden, it is similar to a soldier who carries a rocket launcher[casting out devils], yes it is heavy to carry and your more likely to be a target by the enemy[demons hate deliverance ministries], but it can do great damage to enemy infastructure [uncleaness]  and powerful opponents such as tanks [demons]

Whatsoever you bind upon earth shall be bound in heaven.

I'm not sure I want to get to caught up in your argument here.  I for one, thoroughly enjoy Willie's insights and I've also seen him from time to time become quite passionate about what he sees.  I think you may be experiencing that passion.  I think many who read these comments also see there is the potential of division here due mostly to personality differences.  I pray the sharings continue, but that love abounds.

I for one, used to believe demons are spiritual beings running around creating havoc whereever they go.  But I've since let go of that due to seeing things in a much different perspective.  I don't denounce others for still wanting to believe in them, but I'm not so sure it's an accurate depiction for one to assume that just because my translation says they're demons, that this is what they really are.

I find when the Spirit does reveal things to us, it's seldom to affirm what we think we already know.  I find that the Spirit is constantly and forever calling us forward, continuing to stretch us, challenge what we think we know.  When we become too confident, those may be the most vulnerable times for deception. 

I believe there's a reason why "Satan" is rarely mentioned in the Old Testament as opposed to the New.  For me, it's translations of languages.  And mistranslations of languages.  But the core truth is that Satan is an adversary, it's a title, not a person or being.  I'm not saying everyone who sees this differently has had their thoughts betrayed by the Holy Ghost (Really TT, did you really say that?)

Seeing the serpent in the garden to be the same as the dragon in Revelation to be the same as satan, to be the same as the devil . .they are all one and the same in  that they are an adversary, it then meshes with the truth that my mind is always at enmity with God . . my mind is also an adversary.  Same as Peters when Jesus called him satan . . .same as it was the carnality, the flesh of Jesus that was tempting him . . .it's just ridiculous to think that the devil, in the light tradition sees him . . would have anything he could tempt Jesus "with". 

But when I see that because Jesus became flesh, that it was his flesh that was tempting him with power and miracles . . .the same flesh that tempted Eve in the same manner, it all comes together in realizing that I have that same adversity happening "in" me as well. 

What stretches us more?  Having the Holy Spirit affirm what we already think we know,  that satan is a spirit being out to overthrow God?  Or having the Holy Spirit "reveal" that there is a satan in all of us that is out to kill and destroy the seed of life planted "in" us by the Spirit himself?

Willie, you have helped me tremendously in seeing things much more clearly.  I truly appreciate your insights.

Quote from: NathanFor me, it's translations of languages.  And mistranslations of languages.

If you think it is a matter of languages and translations, why don't you take a look at what Michael Heiser has to say, since he has spent decades studying over 12 different ancient languages, including ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.  [He is also a Christian.]

As far as I can tell, he agrees with Willie on satan [that it is a title denoting adversary] and agrees with TT on the serpent, aka the nachash, the devil, the great dragon, and Satan [that it is a divine being and enemy of God].


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:

I mean you no harm, T-tank... just propose correction, for that is what drew you here, and that is why you find this place spiritually "magnetic"... God has big things in store for you, and in time you will see this...

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PM
Hello my aquaintance, I find it interesting how you interpret the scriptures I gave you. Rather amusing. I guess i'm not the only one with a creative imagination ey.  :grin:

It's intriging how you rant on about annihilation, when we are discussing the devil.

FIRST --- I have been herein designated YOUR ..."aquaintance"?  Thanks for all that "brotherly" ...I mean, ..."aquaintencely" love... BROTHER!

SECOND --- Quit stalling, and answer the questions I proposed to you when you get done  :laugh: ...that is, if you HAVE any answers... :rolleye:

Why not clear up your SCRAMBLED up, all-over-the-place, position as to what "satan" actually is, T-tank?  Is "satan" ...a man, monster, talking snake, invisible/silent ghost, halloween character, dragon, ...which is it, T-tank?"  :dontknow: 

I have made it VERY clear that I believe "satan" to be ONE THING -- which is the ADVERSITY within the DECEITFUL natural heart of MAN -- which is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS -- Jer 17:9 -- (as Paul notes his battle to be with, in Rom 7 -- where he makes NO MENTION of any "talking snakes, monsters, dragons, etc.)

THIRD -- As far as "rants" go, ...you don't like correlating mention of your belief in Annhilation, which is further exposed of its EVIL and false teaching, and for its ADVERSITY which is "enjoined at the hip", with WHO and WHAT the "devil" is... 

As Scripture notes...  DARKNESS does not comprehend the LIGHT! -- John 1:5 -- nor can DARKNESS,  ..."transform (turn ITSELF) into LIGHT... :mnah:  of which it has NO COMPREHENSION...

As far as the discussion goes... YOU proposed ideas, to which I responded... so don't try to build strawmen distractions... hoping to evade my response to you.

Quote from: willieHWhat PEACE is found in ANNHILATION, T-tank?    Wherein is LOVE within its deed?  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMGod destroyed the world and MURDERED as you like to say People in a flood, during Noahs time, what do you say to people who ask you this question? Do you call it a spiritual flood??

FIRST --- ALL men are APPOINTED to DIE in ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- for ALL have SINNED and come short of the Glory of GOD -- Rom 3:23 -- Those who died in the FLOOD, met the end DECLARED by GOD that they should meet... those which were "spared death" in the FLOOD, still DIED later... in BOTH CASES... God decided the moment and causes of their "deaths"... ALL sinners shall DIE... for ALL are IN the DEATH of ADAM... as well as (same "all") are IN the LIFE of CHRIST -- 1 Cor 15:22

SECOND --- The proposal of "annhilation" which YOU embrace, is DEATH on a PERMANENT basis... not just death of the TEMPORAL life of the FLESH... which is contrary to DEATH "passing away", for if any REMAIN DEAD, then DEATH remains.

THIRD --- you failed to address the QUESTION about ANNHILATION, T-tank!  Do you entertain that Hitler, in the very same DEED... "LOVED" the Jews unto death?

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMMore sayings about annhilation, when we are discussing the devil? Your feelings betray you my son, it shows the true issue here, that the devil for you poses a problem for your beliefs, so you must invent unscriptural ideas about who the devil is, to be honest I don't think you have a clue of who or what the devil is, your like

FIRST --- Let us get one thing straight... I am hardly "your son", nor ever will be...  Anyway, ...according to YOUR earlier notation --- I am "YOUR AQUAINTENCE"?

SECOND --- I answered EVERYTHING in your post. which included ALL Scriptures you attempted to use to found your belief in the MYTHICAL being you call, "satan"...  You are inept in responding to me, and seek to divert many of the suggestions YOU made, and to which I RESPONDED.

You failed to answer questions asked...



such as this: 

Quote from: willieHMAN?  You believe "satan" to be a MAN, T-tank?  What Scripture names "satan" as a MAN, brother T-tank?

And if a "satan" is a "man", then "satan" must needs be descendent of ADAM who was the FIRST MAN -- 1 Cor 15:45

How can this be?  How could "satan" persuade ADAM to sin, and yet, as YOU just CLAIMED in your own words (that "satan" is a "MAN"), which therefore requires him to be a DESCENDENT of ADAM, the FIRST MAN?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

and this:

Quote from: willieHHow can DARKNESS transform into LIGHT?  Have you ever witnessed "DARK" making itself "LIGHT"? 

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

and this:

QuoteQuote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
who does Jesus call the devil?

willieH:  Peter! -- Matt 16:23 -- Mark 8:33 -- Luke 4:8 

So is Peter, ..."satan", T-tank?  If he is not, why should the WORD call him such?

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

and this:

QuoteQuote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
this monster is able to deceive learned men that he is good or god.

willieH: Monster?  I thought he was a "man"? As you noted above, and I copy HERE:

Quote from: thinktank on July 31, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
Here is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people.  

willieH:  What is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...   :laughing7:

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:


:dunno:  Where is your response to these T-tank?  What is "satan", T-tank?  Peter?  A talking snake?  The Apostle Peter? A monster?  A man? A halloween character?  :dontknow: 

Let's face it bro... You are all over the place, spiritually...  :sigh:

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMIs he a bird, is he a plane, Is he a snake, is he a man, is he a monster, is he a imp with a pitchfork, no he's a principality, but what's a principality, I don't know, nooooooo :dontknow:

Ah yes... you don't know... nice of you to admit it.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMBut the holy ghost betrayed your thoughts and did find the truth in a moment of revelation, which your mind cannot currently accept, due to certain issues you have, as I said, you might not currently bare them, your boastings about being a Christian for 34 years means little, we all are being worked upon by the master potter.

There is no boast there T-tank... I just note this to you, that your deceptions shall not work with me, for I am not a beginner concerning the WORD which you might manipulate with your FEAR oriented teachings ...which indeed are CAST OUT by LOVE -- 1 John 4:18

Rather, in those God blessed 34 years, I have gained the LOVE and PEACE found of and IN the GOSPEL which is not and SHALL NOT be moved by your empty deceits.

Quote from: willieHThere is no denying that the SPIRIT of ADVERSITY ["satan"] inherent in MAN is a POWERFUL spirit, which cannot be separated from him, except via the WORK of CHRIST... and the Father who is WORKING ALL THINGS...

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMYou said "no denying SATAN in man IS A POWERFUL SPIRIT, that cannot be seperated from him, except via the WORK of Christ",
Do you know one of the works of Christ is CASTING OUT DEMONS, I guess that's the holy ghost working upon you. :thumbsup:

And is working upon YOU as well, for if not... then the TRUTH is not in you, T-tank -- 1 John 1:8

I agree with this... "satan" is not a being inside men... "satan" is the ADVERSITY found in the Carnality of the FLESH, in which all men battle... as is noted by Paul in Rom 7 the entire chapter.  And is further acknowledged by John -- 1 John 1:8

Quote from: willieHWhat is "satan", T-tank?  A "man", which must be descendent of Adam?  A "talking snake"?  A "monster"? -- make up your mind, and get back to me...

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMIt's already been revealed to me via the WORD and the Holy Ghost. Since you already have had this revelation as demonstrated in this post, then holy ghost is already working upon you and you can either resist or collaberate.

Well?  Snake, Man, Monster, Halloween character, ...which is it O wise one?  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieHit is your burden to carry... which is based and affected by and amongst other false beliefs that you propose on Tentmaker...

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMSome of my posts are simply opinions and questions just like all here, especially you, but when it comes to this topic of the devil, this is a tried and tested doctrine, held by many here.

Hmmm... now you appeal to numbers @ Tentmaker, instead of answer the questions.  There are MILLIONS of ISLAMICS... which DWARFS the number present here... shall we therefore deduce that the ISLAMICS are correct, due to the number of multiple MILLIONS of them which believe this religious philosphy?  Get a clue bro...

If you wish to rebuke or challenge me, don't wave the other members of the forum forth, to assist you in doing so... such is the practice of futility in the place of REASON... which you choose to ignore.

How can DARK make itself LIGHT, T-tank?  Surely you can answer that one...  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on August 02, 2010, 08:10:55 PMIt is not a burden, it is similar to a soldier who carries a rocket launcher[casting out devils], yes it is heavy to carry and your more likely to be a target by the enemy[demons hate deliverance ministries], but it can do great damage to enemy infastructure [uncleaness]  and powerful opponents such as tanks [demons]

Your own self adorning, and inflated wordings betray you brother T...

TANKS is your illustration of demons?  T-TANK?

Answer the questions, Mr. Evasion... er, ...I mean... T-tank...

Quote from: Molly on August 02, 2010, 10:12:39 PM

Quote from: NathanFor me, it's translations of languages.  And mistranslations of languages.

If you think it is a matter of languages and translations, why don't you take a look at what Michael Heiser has to say, since he has spent decades studying over 12 different ancient languages, including ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.  [He is also a Christian.]

As far as I can tell, he agrees with Willie on satan [that it is a title denoting adversary] and agrees with TT on the serpent, aka the nachash, the devil, the great dragon, and Satan [that it is a divine being and enemy of God].


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

First Molly, I think going to those lengths for pursuing original translations and deritatives of words may lead one into knowledge, but I'm not after knowledge.  I'm after spiritual truth.  I've said this before, but the Pharisees give the best example when it comes to great knowledgeable men.  They not only knew every minute detail, but they taught it, they "reared" other Rabbi.  They were the pinnacle of knowledge when it came to prophecies of Scripture and principles.  Yet not only did they not recognize Jesus as the Christ, they murdered him.  So, thanks but no thanks.  I'm not after someone else's renderings as far as translative theatre goes. 

That's what I've been trying to say though.  When it comes to spiritual matters, the rules of engagement are not the same as they are when studying for a term paper.  Faith is not reitterating words already written.  The kingdom doesn't come by observation.  These things are all inward.  I know how much you embrace written Scripture and how often times your comments are little more than a quoted verse and it's great that we have literally every verse just seconds away from our monitor screens at any given moment.  I do search passages out same as you. 

Every time I open up the forum, I open up two of my Bible search sites at the same time.  So this is not about walking away from the Scriptures.  Not at all.  But for me, if I were to choose, I'd lay the Bible down and follow the sound rather than rely solely on my limited ability to see, hear and conclude what is and what isn't truth.

Jesus didn't come to establish the Bible.  He came to establish a relationship.  We've been over this before and I've come close to getting into to much trouble about matters of the sacred Scriptures and I really don't want to go all the way there again.  But if we think that faith is built upon what is written, I sense we set ourselves up for the risk of walking according to reasoning and thinking it's spirit.  But if we walk "in" the spirit, even though our minds may not see the same things, there won't be a condemning tone in our words to those who see things differently.  I better shut up, I'm starting to convict myself.

Lastly, the passage you quoted.  Your point was that between satan and the devil, one is a title while the other is a being . . .then you quote a verse that supposedly is to support your statement . . .but as I read it, for me it's saying the serpent, the dragon, satan and the devil are all one and the same.  So essentially, it didn't change anything.  I still see satan as an adversary . . .which is what my carnal nature "is" and the devil is what my carnal nature "does".  Devil is traducer . .or accuser . . .it's judgmental, it's condemning . . .it belittles it's enemy into some form of submission, or tries to.  All of those things are characteristics of a carnal mind.

Any ideas as to why Jesus had to wear a crown of thorns?  For me, it's signifying the fact that he took the cursed mind to the cross.  Thorns represent curse.  anything worn as a crown represents my mind.  In Revelation he's wearing a crown of gold, signifying a purified mind. 

Jesus said "My sheep hear My Voice," perhaps in part, because only knowledge of the "letterword" puffs up.

Only Bible study will end in death because only knowledge (even of the Scriptures) still comes from the same tree — the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!

Jesus said, "My sheep hear My Voice!"

My point EXACTLY bro.  Let the mind go from operation in this realm, to "observation" in the kingdom.  When my spirit is in operation, my mind grows in understanding.  It's not taught, it's "experienced" inwardly. 

I understand what you're saying, Nathan.  But, if there is an evil being out there who is the god of this world and is deceiving the whole world--I'd like to know about it--and have some good information about it.

So this interests me.  Now the new and old testament identifies this being as the nachash, the serpent, who is 'called' the Devil and Satan.  So the book is prophesying and identifying what the being will be called, as well as who he is. That doesn't mean that others cannot also be called  satan, because as you and Willie have pointed out that is a descriptive title for adversary.  But, this is part of a much bigger story--where did this being come from, why is he the enemy of God?  And, why are we so susceptible to him, and what can/should we do, what is required of me?  How does he attack us?  How does the story end, and so forth.

I know that I'm not the god of this world, and I don't deceive the whole world, so this is not talking about me.  

But, if there is an enemy of God and an enemy of mankind out there, I sure want to know about it.

Quote from: willieH on August 02, 2010, 10:10:04 AM

If "satan" were accountable for "TRICKING YOU", then "satan" would be giving account of your sins, not YOU.

:hihat: "Left Behind the Traditional, that Great Tower of Religious cruelty."

Satan, the serpent; an officer of the divine council?
By Michael S Heiser, an Egyptologist?

Syncretistic languages?   :coffee2:

 :coffee2:  yeah.  The Divine Council--these guys:


Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.



"the mighty"

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."




"the gods"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhıym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

Quote from: Molly on August 03, 2010, 02:52:04 AM
I understand what you're saying, Nathan.  But, if there is an evil being out there who is the god of this world and is deceiving the whole world--I'd like to know about it--and have some good information about it.

So this interests me.  Now the new and old testament identifies this being as the nachash, the serpent, who is 'called' the Devil and Satan.  So the book is prophesying and identifying what the being will be called, as well as who he is. That doesn't mean that others cannot also be called  satan, because as you and Willie have pointed out that is a descriptive title for adversary.  But, this is part of a much bigger story--where did this being come from, why is he the enemy of God?  And, why are we so susceptible to him, and what can/should we do, what is required of me?  How does he attack us?  How does the story end, and so forth.

I know that I'm not the god of this world, and I don't deceive the whole world, so this is not talking about me. 

But, if there is an enemy of God and an enemy of mankind out there, I sure want to know about it.

I see it as the world is you Molly and me. As long as the carnal mind rules our world I see it (our carnal mindset) as the god of 'this' world. It does deceive the whole world, me and you. Until we have the mind of Christ we are deceived.

We are susceptible to 'him' because we are largely products of our minds.

What we can do is renew our minds as God directs and orchestrates. This is what is required of you.

The carnal mindset (satan) attacks by creating a corrupt mind while God is working to create within us a mind of power and love and soundness.

Just some thoughts.

cp

Molly, one more thing. You ask where this being (satan) came from. Very thought provoking question. Makes me think.

In my understanding it (satan/carnal mindset) comes from weakness. I believe Adam (us) were created with inherent weakness for a perfectly perfect purpose. We are to grow strong. God's plan, the making of man in His image. We go from natural to spiritual. A process.

cp

Or, maybe, we go from spiritual (Eden and Innocence), for He knows us before we are born,
to the natural world via our physical birth crying like babies and then
back to spiritual again this time with the Overcoming Resurrection Power of Christ Jesus;



He is the Pattern.

I've often thought that very thing Bserv (I have a hard time shortening your name to it's obvious initials  :grin:)

cp

I hear you, CP.  But there is this drama going on throughout the Bible, behind the scenes, which is kind of the elephant in the room--starting with Gen 1--"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness--and continued into the New Testament.

It is not flesh and blood [the carnal] that we are fighting with, although, like you said, that might be our weakness in battle--it is a spiritual war that is dealing with spirits outside of ourselves, in heavenly places.

How can I fight a war if I don't know who the enemy is?




EPHESIANS 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

"hosts" [of wickedness]

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.



Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, but who are these guys?

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

--Job 38

I'm thinking the enemy is our weakness from which our carnality comes from. You can fight weakness by seeking Strength.

To me the whole drama that is being played out is the life of every human. A baby is conceived, it grows, it sins because of inherent weakness, it is saved by Jesus Christ and eventually comes to a realization of this salvation via the workings of God. The End....The Beginning!

cp

That, in my opinion is US, Molly, created in the Elohim.

We are now walking out the path that the Father ordained for us.

Been over this once before, but because you asked the question again Molly, I'll throw this out again. 
Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

the devil's schemes
Schemes?  The devil is the same as the serpent in Genesis, the most "subtle" beast in all the field.  This is still depicting the carnality of the natural realm.  It's like how the moon affects our earth.  We can't see it doing anything, but we know without it life on earth would not ever be the same.  Carnality, the pull of the flesh is there, always nagging, constantly trying to distract and destruct.

2 Corinthians 10
3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
7You are looking only on the surface of things . . .

The reason we can't seem to let go of the idea that principalities and powers is dealing with demonic heiarchy is due to it being ingrained into our "minds" by other men's teachings.  But when you start breaking this down, a different pattern seems to materialize.  And that is, these weapons of warfare are not for spirits outside of us, they are more mental blocks and strongholds "inside" of us.

Arguements, pretensions set up against "knowledge". . .taking captive every "thought". . .these weapons of warfare are not demonic, it's speaking of mental warfare going on inwardly. 

And Molly, you hit the nail on the head with your question and I quote . . .
How can I fight a war if I don't know who the enemy is?

My answer is . . .one you can't.  Two, your not supposed to, it's not your battle, the battle is the Lord's.  Three, by entering into the person of rest, you've laid down your weapons and traded up for plowshares. And four, THAT'S why I keep pounding on this topic so much.  I "do" know who the enemy is, it's ME!  My flesh!  My carnal nature!  My MIND.

Music to my ears Nathan. Tis truely good to know who the enemy is and where he is.

cp

 :cloud9: Nate, I'm always blessed by what you share and I agree with this in principle and as the source of where demons come from. BUT.....I was not taught about them by doctrines of men, or men, I was taught about them by God, who saw fit to have one enter my world via my friend who was nearly possessed one night, in April of '86 and used by Him as the catalyst for my finding Him.

I didn't want to believe it, but when faced with irrefutable proof by being dropped into the midst of such a situation, with tangible physical evidence that was in no way possible for the carnal mind to create, it begs, no SCREAMS, consideration.  :laughing7:

Even the jailers here know what demonic possession is like, having had more than one inmate who would wake up "slimed" (just as my friend was) from the exit and entrance of the demon at night.  :mshock:

Yes, the mind planted the seed, and our "Eve"/womb, mother of all living (outside of Him) created it by giving it life, but to say they are not real entities, I cannot agree with. My  :2c: Blessings....

Card, forgive me for butting in here but something you said really causes me to think so I am thinking out loud here.

Demons are real entities you said.

I would say they are too and I think Nate would too. To me all spiritual has it's counterpart in the physical and vice versa. This imo is why God created all as He did. I think Adam was a real human yet I believe he represents so much more.

I think what happens is one side gets emphasized more than the other and then the other seems to not exist. I see the Bible as a physical book and a spiritual one too. I know you know all this but just wanted to put in my  :2c:

cp

 :cloud9: Well, perhaps I misunderstood what he was trying to convey, then. I thought he was saying basically, that they are just in people's minds, not real.  :dontknow: If I misundstood Nate, forgive me.  :girlheart:

Card,

You do make me think and let me say that I am not in the least qualified to speak for Nate but I wanted to give my opinion.

cp

Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Cardinal, I don't try to denounce another's experience.  I try not to denounce anyone, I try to stick with sharing what I see and let the others do the judging.  But . .what if . . .what if what we "call" demons and spirits can actually be tied to our subconsciousness that's  creating slime and such.  

This is what I mean when I say we don't have much of a clue as to what kind of powers we are equipped with.  We see extremes of such things and write them off as extremists.  However, who's to say we are "equipped" to move objects with our minds.  To influencing tangible things through waves of thought?

This is actually a whole doctrine we're talking about.  If I believe in spiritual demons as we've been taught . . .then that means there's truth to the devil being this great dark invisible being that deceived a third of God's "perfect created beings" of angels . . .I don't buy into that anymore.

Can anyone explain how Jesus speaks words and natural elements respond immediately?  We are equipped with that same power.  We call it the Holy Spirit, but WHERE is the Holy Spirit?  Is he some outward force that responds to our becon call?  Or is he "in" us?  And if he's "in" us . . .WHERE in us does he then dwell if it is not in our subconscious.

Here's what I'm seeing . . .what we call demons and spirits, the uncontrollable twitches, gags, vomitting, and anything else one may have seen in the exorcist . . .all of those things can be things connected to a subconcious level of activity.  I would say it's a broken subconsciousness where the person has lost control of it . . . but there is a creative power in every being that has been created by the Father that for the most part, we don't really know how to tap into that.  

Tradition tells us there's a gazillion spirits out there . .spirit of anger, spirit of hate, spirit of this, spirit of that . .but for me, they are again passing the blame on to something they claim is of a greater power than they and it's not them doing it . .so you gotta cast out the spirit . . .but when you do, they're not any different, they may feel emotionally charged by the experience, but the problem is not an outside spiritual force, it's an inward mindset.

The praying for one another is the process of inward realignment.  It's where "my" spirit returns back to it's rightful place on the throne within me and "that's" what brings about the change in me so my anger isn't so quick to surface, my hate isn't so easy to trigger . . .it's not because you cast a demon out of me, it's because the Spirit alignment my spirit and soul back to it's proper order.

UR believers have come to realize that hell isn't what they once thought it was.  I guess for me, I struggle in the idea that I can give up hell, but I'll continue to hold on to the devil, satan and his demons . . .for me, one supports the other, but when one goes, it begs the question . . .what about the others then?

I'm not saying something supernatural didn't take place with your friend who found slime on his body, what I'm saying is, I'm not so quick to say it's a demon anymore.  It's obvious there's something out of alignment.  I've stated before that I don't rely solely on Scripture to establish my faith, I refer to it, I reference it, but only after something has surfaced from within me.

In writing this little piece here, I'm still going through the process of trying to fully identify what it is I'm seeing and it's a process.  I can't jump up and down on this freely yet because I'm still waiting for things to solidify.  However, as I'm writing this, there is a reference that did come to mind . . .


Eph. 4
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The idea that there's only one spirit seems to get over looked in some of this.

For me, growing in the Lord it's reaffirming what I think I already know.  Growing to me is being stretched by things I don't know.  There's a lot about God that I don't know.  And I don't want to have my head deter what my heart is trying to receive.  So I lay it all down and go from there.  If anything, listen for the sound of what I say.  I'm not speaking out of condemnation or judgment.  I'm not trying to bring conformity to you.  My purpose still is to attempt to illuminate the kingdom principles, the nature of the Father and most near and dear to me, to assist in setting people free from the bondage of their "self".

If you don't accept this, that's cool.  If you don't see it, I'm fine with that.  Things like this are prone to lead to at least "some" wonderment.  It's totally understandable.  It's very much in the face of traditional understanding, totally aware of that to.  I'm at the place anymore where I'm more apt to share what I see regardless of the nature of it's depth and let the readers and listeners take what they wish from it, rather than try to condense and conform bits and pieces of what I do understand so I can manipulate and intimidate everyone to think "this" is it.

We compare what others see with what we've seen and respond, hopefully in a loving manner, accordingly.  It's how we grow.

Quote from: Nathan on August 03, 2010, 07:54:58 PM
Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Your response to Card is very well put. Very well. Both what you see satan and demons to be and how we should all communicate to each other. Card of course, Is always gracious when responding but what you said was very good for me to hear and I'm  sure others will benefit from your words.

Now you have me questioning myself as to what physical or spiritual form satan would have if indeed 'he' is other than you (and I for the most part) see?

cp

Quote from: Nathan on August 03, 2010, 07:54:58 PM
Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Cardinal, I don't try to denounce another's experience.  I try not to denounce anyone, I try to stick with sharing what I see and let the others do the judging.  But . .what if . . .what if what we "call" demons and spirits can actually be tied to our subconsciousness that's  creating slime and such.  

This is what I mean when I say we don't have much of a clue as to what kind of powers we are equipped with.  We see extremes of such things and write them off as extremists.  However, who's to say we are "equipped" to move objects with our minds.  To influencing tangible things through waves of thought?

This is actually a whole doctrine we're talking about.  If I believe in spiritual demons as we've been taught . . .then that means there's truth to the devil being this great dark invisible being that deceived a third of God's "perfect created beings" of angels . . .I don't buy into that anymore.

Can anyone explain how Jesus speaks words and natural elements respond immediately?  We are equipped with that same power.  We call it the Holy Spirit, but WHERE is the Holy Spirit?  Is he some outward force that responds to our becon call?  Or is he "in" us?  And if he's "in" us . . .WHERE in us does he then dwell if it is not in our subconscious.

Here's what I'm seeing . . .what we call demons and spirits, the uncontrollable twitches, gags, vomitting, and anything else one may have seen in the exorcist . . .all of those things can be things connected to a subconcious level of activity.  I would say it's a broken subconsciousness where the person has lost control of it . . . but there is a creative power in every being that has been created by the Father that for the most part, we don't really know how to tap into that.  

Tradition tells us there's a gazillion spirits out there . .spirit of anger, spirit of hate, spirit of this, spirit of that . .but for me, they are again passing the blame on to something they claim is of a greater power than they and it's not them doing it . .so you gotta cast out the spirit . . .but when you do, they're not any different, they may feel emotionally charged by the experience, but the problem is not an outside spiritual force, it's an inward mindset.

The praying for one another is the process of inward realignment.  It's where "my" spirit returns back to it's rightful place on the throne within me and "that's" what brings about the change in me so my anger isn't so quick to surface, my hate isn't so easy to trigger . . .it's not because you cast a demon out of me, it's because the Spirit alignment my spirit and soul back to it's proper order.

UR believers have come to realize that hell isn't what they once thought it was.  I guess for me, I struggle in the idea that I can give up hell, but I'll continue to hold on to the devil, satan and his demons . . .for me, one supports the other, but when one goes, it begs the question . . .what about the others then?

I'm not saying something supernatural didn't take place with your friend who found slime on his body, what I'm saying is, I'm not so quick to say it's a demon anymore.  It's obvious there's something out of alignment.  I've stated before that I don't rely solely on Scripture to establish my faith, I refer to it, I reference it, but only after something has surfaced from within me.

In writing this little piece here, I'm still going through the process of trying to fully identify what it is I'm seeing and it's a process.  I can't jump up and down on this freely yet because I'm still waiting for things to solidify.  However, as I'm writing this, there is a reference that did come to mind . . .


Eph. 4
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The idea that there's only one spirit seems to get over looked in some of this.

For me, growing in the Lord it's reaffirming what I think I already know.  Growing to me is being stretched by things I don't know.  There's a lot about God that I don't know.  And I don't want to have my head deter what my heart is trying to receive.  So I lay it all down and go from there.  If anything, listen for the sound of what I say.  I'm not speaking out of condemnation or judgment.  I'm not trying to bring conformity to you.  My purpose still is to attempt to illuminate the kingdom principles, the nature of the Father and most near and dear to me, to assist in setting people free from the bondage of their "self".

If you don't accept this, that's cool.  If you don't see it, I'm fine with that.  Things like this are prone to lead to at least "some" wonderment.  It's totally understandable.  It's very much in the face of traditional understanding, totally aware of that to.  I'm at the place anymore where I'm more apt to share what I see regardless of the nature of it's depth and let the readers and listeners take what they wish from it, rather than try to condense and conform bits and pieces of what I do understand so I can manipulate and intimidate everyone to think "this" is it.

We compare what others see with what we've seen and respond, hopefully in a loving manner, accordingly.  It's how we grow.

Nathan I feel partly to blame for your changing perspective of demons, for I remember talking about metaphysics and subconcious phenomana. What you are saying is partly true and interesting, but remember that science is in it's infancy regarding the deeper levels of the mind and cannot explain everything. We have the words of Jesus that explain unclean spirits as seperate beings that manifest with startling results, he has also given us authority over all unclean spirits, whereas a subconcious mind belongs totally to the owner and is similar to a garden that sometimes contains weeds, which the bible calls strongholds, take every thought captive  etc.

But demons in the bible walk around in dry places seeking who they may devour, we have the occult for example, who do not hide their involvement with demons. You don't see much demonic activity these days it is mostly hidden behind closed doors, our society is much too sophisticated to belive/recognize demons, doctors etc, look entirely at the physical and ignore the spiritual level, many diseases etc are not even understood by doctors/medical authorities. Tourettes sydrome for example, where people unexpicable spurt out bad language, why don't they say good words?
This is just one example of the many things these days that are described as an uncurable illness.
Poltergeist activity is also documented in various houses, the bible does warn that lands can become defiled with unholy shrines and objects and various occult activity, etc.

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

Quote from: Nathan on August 02, 2010, 09:55:56 PM
I'm not sure I want to get to caught up in your argument here.  I for one, thoroughly enjoy Willie's insights and I've also seen him from time to time become quite passionate about what he sees.  I think you may be experiencing that passion.  I think many who read these comments also see there is the potential of division here due mostly to personality differences.  I pray the sharings continue, but that love abounds.

You know me well my brother... I only mean love in my words, but I realize they can be at times a bit "over the top"... its just how I speak.  No harm is intended to T-tank or anyone else.  As you say... passion is involved... I speak of the Lord as do I play music... with all that I have...

Quote from: Nathan on August 02, 2010, 09:55:56 PMWillie, you have helped me tremendously in seeing things much more clearly.  I truly appreciate your insights.

Thank you for these kind words... might I pass them on to CHRIST for (as, knowing you, you shall whole-heartedly agree), it is to His credit that any of us prosper from the words of one another... I have gained much from reading and absorbing many wisdoms of His coming forth from you as well!  :friendstu:

:Peace: me bratha...  :icon_rr:

No TT. you weren't the first source where I saw these things.  You were just the latest.   I read a tiny little pamphlet called "quantum faith" by Annette Capps a while back.  She's the daughter of another well known author, Charles Capps who has written several books on the power of the spoken tongue.  That little pamphlet she wrote is what really planted the original seed that led to these things.  Such an eye-opening little book.  It was only like a half-hour read, but it was so well done that even in that short of time, it was mind-blowing.  It cost like $3.

But once again, for every instance you read in Scripture about demons, you could easily replace "demon" with the nature of your carnal mind.  Man, when left to his own means, becomes a destructive force against himself.  It's that fallen nature that thrives in flesh. Interesting thing you referred to Tourettes.  That was in the back of my mind the whole time I was trying to explain how there are so many parts to the human brain we know very little about.

Back in the day, the person with Tourettes would be considered demon possessed.  Today, there's a clinical name for the "condition" of the brain.  I don't think it's demonic, but I do think it's spiritual.  What I mean is, in their spirit, there's been some kind of disconnect and the carnal mind is in direct control.  Carnality spews darkness.  I'll lay hands on them, as I said before, and pray over them and I'll speak to the broken places and call for light and illumination in them and for them to let it go and everything that a person praying against a demon would pray, except for me calling it a demon.

For me, the thing is, whether I'm right or wrong isn't the issue.  The underlying key through this whole conversation is, that we pursue Christ no matter what.  If I walk in the spirit and I'm wrong and these are truly demons as we've been taught, am I still not equipped by the blood of the Lamb to be able to walk on serpents and not be harmed?  I have friends and even relatives in ministries relating to this and unfortunately, they can't accept my perspective either because their ministry for emphasizing their existance has become their identity.  Which is another related problem with this.

My identity should be in my relationship with Christ, not in the works I perform that I began exercising in on my quest to learn "about" Christ.  Hardest thing to lay down is that which you identify with the most.  Remember that guy that went to Jesus to ask him what he had to do to be a follower . . .Jesus response was for him to give up everything he owned.  It's not just about tangible possessions, that could also include everything we've accumulated about God up to now.  

Jesus stated the temple they tore down would be one that "he" would raise back up.  Not the people, not doctrines of men, but the Manna, the "what is it?" would raise it up and the cornerstone is the communion of the Father with us, revealing the nature of his Son in the hearts of men.  Demons or no demons, doesn't really matter.  Christ needs to be my centerpiece.  I am willing to let go of my doctrine of demons all together and let him rebuild his truths in me, and in faith, I believe he's done just that.

Quote from: Nathan on August 03, 2010, 05:42:25 PM
Been over this once before, but because you asked the question again Molly, I'll throw this out again. 
Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

the devil's schemes
Schemes?  The devil is the same as the serpent in Genesis, the most "subtle" beast in all the field.  This is still depicting the carnality of the natural realm.  It's like how the moon affects our earth.  We can't see it doing anything, but we know without it life on earth would not ever be the same.  Carnality, the pull of the flesh is there, always nagging, constantly trying to distract and destruct.

2 Corinthians 10
3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
7You are looking only on the surface of things . . .

The reason we can't seem to let go of the idea that principalities and powers is dealing with demonic heiarchy is due to it being ingrained into our "minds" by other men's teachings.  But when you start breaking this down, a different pattern seems to materialize.  And that is, these weapons of warfare are not for spirits outside of us, they are more mental blocks and strongholds "inside" of us.

Arguements, pretensions set up against "knowledge". . .taking captive every "thought". . .these weapons of warfare are not demonic, it's speaking of mental warfare going on inwardly. 

And Molly, you hit the nail on the head with your question and I quote . . .
How can I fight a war if I don't know who the enemy is?

My answer is . . .one you can't.  Two, your not supposed to, it's not your battle, the battle is the Lord's.  Three, by entering into the person of rest, you've laid down your weapons and traded up for plowshares. And four, THAT'S why I keep pounding on this topic so much.  I "do" know who the enemy is, it's ME!  My flesh!  My carnal nature!  My MIND.

:thumbsup:  :2thumbs:  Three thumbs UP!

Quote from: willieH on August 03, 2010, 09:35:41 PM
willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

Quote from: Nathan on August 02, 2010, 09:55:56 PM
I'm not sure I want to get to caught up in your argument here.  I for one, thoroughly enjoy Willie's insights and I've also seen him from time to time become quite passionate about what he sees.  I think you may be experiencing that passion.  I think many who read these comments also see there is the potential of division here due mostly to personality differences.  I pray the sharings continue, but that love abounds.

You know me well my brother... I only mean love in my words, but I realize they can be at times a bit "over the top"... its just how I speak.  No harm is intended to T-tank or anyone else.  As you say... passion is involved... I speak of the Lord as do I play music... with all that I have...

Quote from: Nathan on August 02, 2010, 09:55:56 PMWillie, you have helped me tremendously in seeing things much more clearly.  I truly appreciate your insights.

Thank you for these kind words... might I pass them on to CHRIST for (as, knowing you, you shall whole-heartedly agree), it is to His credit that any of us prosper from the words of one another... I have gained much from reading and absorbing many wisdoms of His coming forth from you as well!  :friendstu:

:Peace: me bratha...  :icon_rr:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thanks Willie, I seriously treasure your thoughts.  I've followed you closely through all of your responses to various people and situations and I always find myself grinning at the skill with which you apply your sword.  I do enjoy eating under such a wonderful chef as you are.  Your skill at using the Word, correctly dividing . . . "that" for me is the true reason for studying Scripture.  You master it beautifully and I do feel your passion.

Party on bro.

Quote from: claypot on August 03, 2010, 07:24:31 PM
Card, forgive me for butting in here but something you said really causes me to think so I am thinking out loud here.

Demons are real entities you said.

I would say they are too and I think Nate would too. To me all spiritual has it's counterpart in the physical and vice versa. This imo is why God created all as He did. I think Adam was a real human yet I believe he represents so much more.

I think what happens is one side gets emphasized more than the other and then the other seems to not exist. I see the Bible as a physical book and a spiritual one too. I know you know all this but just wanted to put in my  :2c:

cp

:cloud9: CP, I agree, and I'm aware of all the abuses this subject has brought into the body, yet I have not seen or heard anything from Him that would lead me to think otherwise, YET.

I can see a "blending" of sorts between what Nate is saying, and what I am saying, in reference to how they are created. That's about as "far" as I can presently go with it. That's where I'm at right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

Before I begin, I must say that I am very much in alignment with the perspectives and humilities expressed by Nathan...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2010, 08:25:55 PM
Nathan I feel partly to blame for your changing perspective of demons, for I remember talking about metaphysics and subconcious phenomana.

I am wondering why you might have deduced this, T-tank?  Have you actually seen Nathan's beliefs "morph" to a different area, in the short time that YOU have been here, concerning this subject?   :dunno:

That Nathan has taken into consideration the KNOWLEDGE revelations gained by science (all knowledge is of GOD), has likely been going on in him as he has lived and observed, during the entirety of life and study, ...not just since you may have mentioned "metaphysics or subconcious phemomenon"...  :dontknow:

I can testify that before I became a believer in CHRIST, ...that I both questioned and agreed with science's conjectures...  I for one, do not believe "men went to the moon", for instance...  Just because "science" approves or disapproves, does not establish knowledge.  This same thing is true in the Spiritual as well... just because one does not "believe" this or that, does not "KILL" the perception... nor does "belief" give it "LIFE" in other than the one "believing"...

Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2010, 08:25:55 PMWhat you are saying is partly true and interesting, but remember that science is in it's infancy regarding the deeper levels of the mind and cannot explain everything.

Something I can agree with T-tank...  :wink1:

That scientific genious such as Einstein estimated that men do not even have a perception of even 1% of total reality, is a somewhat revealing admission from the "mouth of science", that negates the idea that it might even REMOTELY esteem itself to having an ability to "deduce" the complete workings of the human mind ["explaining everything"]. 

This admission of Einstein, is a FAR CRY from "explaining EVERYTHING" concerning the deeper levels of the mind... and to call its present knowledge as in "infancy" is to give it more credit than it really deserves...  I'd say its more in the "FETAL" or "EMBRYO" stage of understanding...  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2010, 08:25:55 PMWe have the words of Jesus that explain unclean spirits as seperate beings that manifest with startling results

JESUS NEVER spoke of unclean spirits as SEPARATE BEINGS... where did He say that?

YOU say ---> "we have the WORDS of JESUS" ...please provide these "WORDS"!

Science does this very same thing on a DAILY basis -- just tune into the DISCOVERY or HISTORY channels or pick up a magazine such as TIME...  Falsely spouting THEORY or HYPOTHESIS as FACT, when all these WORDS of theirs, are nothing but conjectures made of LIMITED VISION, of that which "MIGHT" be so...  :thumbdown:

You do this very thing (as does science in their conjectures) with CHRIST, in this statement above.

Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2010, 08:25:55 PMBut demons in the bible walk around in dry places seeking who they may devour

"Walk around"?  ..."in DRY places"?  Where are you getting all this stuff, T-tank?  :dontknow:

Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2010, 08:25:55 PMwe have the occult for example, who do not hide their involvement with demons. You don't see much demonic activity these days it is mostly hidden behind closed doors, our society is much too sophisticated to belive/recognize demons, doctors etc, look entirely at the physical and ignore the spiritual level, many diseases etc are not even understood by doctors/medical authorities. Tourettes sydrome for example, where people unexpicable spurt out bad language, why don't they say good words?

Seems to me that many "bad words" are withheld in the subconcious... Do you have any swirling about in your unspoken subconscious, about me, T-tank?  :laughing7:

Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2010, 08:25:55 PMThis is just one example of the many things these days that are described as an uncurable illness.

There is no such thing as an "incurable illness"... only ones that a "cure" has not yet, been scientifically found...  To "say" a disease or illness is "incurable" is like saying -- "you can't get there FROM HERE"

Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2010, 08:25:55 PMPoltergeist activity is also documented in various houses, the bible does warn that lands can become defiled with unholy shrines and objects and various occult activity, etc.

The capacity of the human mind has ability FAR beyond what is generally recognized and/or accepted... and is able to do as DID JESUS, ...we just lack the faith to INITIATE it as did HE... 

There are many instances where things have been intermittently done by men (especially JESUS) which DEFY normal "time realm physics" while in the flesh...  levitations, moving objects without touching them, prophecy, etc.   

This is WHY the Pharisees often named the MIRACULOUS doings of CHRIST as "having a devil" or being "of the devil"... for He produced EXTRA-Physical Miracles which EXCEEDED the natural abilities of man, as observed by carnal minds...

JESUS had the FULLNESS of Divinity [WORD of YHVH God] dwelling within Him -- Col 2:9 -- we just have a "measure" of Him, called FAITH -- Col 3:11 -- Rom 12:3

I've seen demons that had nothing to do with me.  I wasn't imagining it.  It was real.  I know that people conjure them up and worship them, as well.  I'm wondering if those who deny such things have ever seen one?  They do submit to the name of Jesus in my experience.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 12:12:14 AM
I've seen demons that had nothing to do with me.  I wasn't imagining it.  It was real.  I know that people conjure them up and worship them, as well.  I'm wondering if those who deny such things have ever seen one?  They do submit to the name of Jesus in my experience.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Molly, I seriously and respectfully ask you what these demons looked like? Can you give a physical description?

cp

Quote from: claypot on August 04, 2010, 12:32:58 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 12:12:14 AM
I've seen demons that had nothing to do with me.  I wasn't imagining it.  It was real.  I know that people conjure them up and worship them, as well.  I'm wondering if those who deny such things have ever seen one?  They do submit to the name of Jesus in my experience.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Molly, I seriously and respectfully ask you what these demons looked like? Can you give a physical description?

cp

amorphuous shape, horribly ugly, black, faces morphed into even uglier shapes as I was watching them, if that were possible.

I also lived in a haunted house for a while, just heard sounds, which everyone heard, and one person was touched on the neck by one.

The Bible also tells us Satan can appear as an angel of light--so apparently they can be beautiful, too.  I would liken this to some very charismatic people I have met.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

First off . . .Willie, you could write all day on this one and I'd eat it up, as it sounds like you've been in this much longer than I.  

And Molly . . .paradigm shifts are very unsettling.  It's like shedding a skin in that the questions in me aren't "are you sure this is true" but instead they are "are you sure you want to put this out there".  I don't want to be anti-anything.  I'm actually "daring" myself to step out into these waters and see what the Father is going to further reveal.  In faith, I'm seeing these things take shape.  

The things Willie just threw out there in his last posts seem to be solidifying other things I've seen but not mentioned.  "That's" why I enjoy the forum.  It does stretch me.  Cardnal is good at stretching me.  She's obviously been in places I've not been and has many experiences that I couldn't take away from her if I wanted to.

But to answer your general question as one that does appear to be denying demons as we know them, yes, I've been on both sides of this.  Back in '96, I was in the latter part of my school of ministry classes when I was released to teach an adult class in our rather large church.  The Thursday night before I was to start teaching, I was setting in my class and the teacher stated a somewhat controversial statement.

As much as I am now pro-dimensional/pattern/spiritual principles oriented, I was just as emphatic about embracing only what Scripture states, no ifs, ands, or buts.  But when the teacher, whom I had and still have a great respect for, when he made the statement, my body reacted to it like I'd been grazed by a shock wave.  I began to fidget.  I knew that I was doing it and even thought it odd that I was, but it didn't stop.

I kept shifting my weight back and forth in the chair.  Nervously rocking my leg or twitching my foot, wringing my hands . .this went on for several minutes, finally the teacher stopped what he was saying and addressed me, asking me if everything was all right.  It wasn't but I didn't know that.  I started to weep.  For no reason . . .nobody else was showing any emotion.  I also thought I must be more spiritually sensitive than they.

The teacher came over to me and sort of kneeled over me for a few minutes without saying anything.  Then he sat in front of me, took my hands and gently stated that I was not to be offended at what he was about to do or say.  By this time I was just blubbering and sobbing.  He prayed a prayer of deliverance . . .after some time went by, it lifted and class was over.  

I knew something had happened that night.  The one thing I distinctly remember was, I was attending my Father's funeral . .not only attending, I was facilitating it.  That had more impact on me than anything.  I wasn't going through the school of minsitry for any ministry, even though the classes were like $90 a class.  I went because I was so hungry for God that I wanted everything they had to offer.  When I got the teaching role, I assumed that was why God led me into the classes.

My Mom kept telling me I was going to be a preacher I kept denying it and told her to listen better because God was saying "T"eacher.  Little did I know, 6 years later I'm issued a pastor's license and a pulpit.  

It was a year after that incident that God revealed to me a couple things.  I grew up under a very religiously strict environment.  I had a very strong-willed mindset.  Back when it happened, I called it a religious spirit. . .like it was an outside being that secretly was lurking around in my personna.  But there was a misalignment that God did change in me that night.

And he waited until I was in the kingdom light just a few years ago that he revealed that when I was facilitating my Father's death, it wasn't about my physical Father, all though that can still happen . . .but it was about what was instilled in me by my upbringing that God was bringing to a death in me.  He was releasing me from my Father's doctrine so that I would mature into "my own" relationship with him.

My break here at work is over . . .but yes, I have been involved with what I used to see as the "demonic" first hand.

Quote from: Nathan on August 03, 2010, 07:54:58 PM
Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Cardinal, I don't try to denounce another's experience.  I try not to denounce anyone, I try to stick with sharing what I see and let the others do the judging.  But . .what if . . .what if what we "call" demons and spirits can actually be tied to our subconsciousness that's  creating slime and such.

Nate, I don't have a problem with anyone believing this, I'm just saying I don't, and I'm sharing what I see, as well. I think we're seeing the same thing, in a way, just from different vantage points. I don't look at disagreeing as denouncing.

The Jews would present a precept or position in Torah at their yeshivas (schools for rabbis), with one intentionally looking for the opposing viewpoint possible from the scriptures (not conditional on whether or not he himself believed that particular viewpoint), expressly for the purpose of discovering greater understanding. Although we have the added benefit of the Spirit now to lead us, the discussion always is a benefit, one way or another. It's all about the motive of the heart.

This is what I mean when I say we don't have much of a clue as to what kind of powers we are equipped with.  We see extremes of such things and write them off as extremists.  However, who's to say we are "equipped" to move objects with our minds.  To influencing tangible things through waves of thought?

This is actually a whole doctrine we're talking about.  If I believe in spiritual demons as we've been taught . . .then that means there's truth to the devil being this great dark invisible being that deceived a third of God's "perfect created beings" of angels . . .I don't buy into that anymore.

I'm undecided on that.

Can anyone explain how Jesus speaks words and natural elements respond immediately?  We are equipped with that same power.  We call it the Holy Spirit, but WHERE is the Holy Spirit?  Is he some outward force that responds to our becon call?  Or is he "in" us?  And if he's "in" us . . .WHERE in us does he then dwell if it is not in our subconscious.

Maybe it's just a label, but I personally am not sure I believe in a subconscious mind. You find that term in the psychology circles, but where do we find it in the Word? Not trying to be difficult and split hairs here, but I say this based on a dream He gave me, that mentioned psychology. The carnal mind, yes. I think He dwells within our spirit, first, the rest gradually, as we grow.

Here's what I'm seeing . . .what we call demons and spirits, the uncontrollable twitches, gags, vomitting, and anything else one may have seen in the exorcist . . .all of those things can be things connected to a subconcious level of activity.  I would say it's a broken subconsciousness where the person has lost control of it . . . but there is a creative power in every being that has been created by the Father that for the most part, we don't really know how to tap into that.  

Tradition tells us there's a gazillion spirits out there . .spirit of anger, spirit of hate, spirit of this, spirit of that . .but for me, they are again passing the blame on to something they claim is of a greater power than they and it's not them doing it . .so you gotta cast out the spirit . . .but when you do, they're not any different, they may feel emotionally charged by the experience, but the problem is not an outside spiritual force, it's an inward mindset.

Here's what I'm seeing....sort of a, which is first, the chicken or the egg, scenario. The spirits presents the thought/seed, the seed is either accepted or rejected into the womb of the carnal mind (bringing all thoughts into captivity of the mind of Christ = rejecting the seed).

After it's acceptance, it begins to "speak" on a regular basis, producing an action eventually that produces a fruit. We can see the fruit and claim it as our nature, or see the root which is spiritual. And the thing is, if we accept the spirit, it does become part of our nature so entwined in the soul that only the Spirit can discern what is us and what is "memorex", which is why we are given the gift of discerning of spirits.

I will use myself as an example. I was delivered of a bad spirit of anger. What is cast out always seeks to come back, to that which has been swept but not garnished. Bread has to go thru the fire to be baked in us, and we have to stand in what we know, to have it made bread in us that can't be moved.

One day weeks after I was delivered of this, my X said something that really "hit" a sore spot and I instantly gave in to the thought of responding in kind, and the second I opened my mouth to give it voice, what had placed that thought before me LITERALLY flew into my mouth and down my throat. I FELT IT fly in. I coughed and hacked, realized what had happened, repented with tears, and sought Him to get set free of it again.

Believe me when I tell you had He not delivered me, when my son was beaten with steel pipes, brain damaged and nearly killed, and his attackers got off scott free, there is every possibility I would have killed them, had I ran into them, and I did run into the main one.

My friend discovered this pretty much the same way. I had been trying to tell her what had happened to me, regarding deliverance, but she had been taught that Christians can't have evil spirits (not talking demons here, evil spirits). She was at work, got mad at her boyfriend who also worked there, and since she believed they were only on the outside of you, began to pray them away from her. So she got mad, stayed in nearly a rage, tried to pray it away from her, until the Lord finally spoke to her, telling her, "It's not on the outside of you, it's on the inside of you."

She was shocked, but began to pray and see what He said to command out, same as I had tried to tell her He had done with me. She ended up going thru quite a few, and ended up going home to let Him finish the process as much as possible for that time.

The praying for one another is the process of inward realignment.  It's where "my" spirit returns back to it's rightful place on the throne within me and "that's" what brings about the change in me so my anger isn't so quick to surface, my hate isn't so easy to trigger . . .it's not because you cast a demon out of me, it's because the Spirit alignment my spirit and soul back to it's proper order.

UR believers have come to realize that hell isn't what they once thought it was.  I guess for me, I struggle in the idea that I can give up hell, but I'll continue to hold on to the devil, satan and his demons . . .for me, one supports the other, but when one goes, it begs the question . . .what about the others then?

I don't see a conflict in it, because of what I understand "hell" to be, personally. They are part of the bondage of corruption and vanity we were lowered into, IMO.

I'm not saying something supernatural didn't take place with your friend who found slime on his body, what I'm saying is, I'm not so quick to say it's a demon anymore.  It's obvious there's something out of alignment.  I've stated before that I don't rely solely on Scripture to establish my faith, I refer to it, I reference it, but only after something has surfaced from within me.

And so do I. My friend asked Him where the demon came from, and He told her she had created it out of the hate and murder of her own heart, a statement I have only recently come to understand as new revelation has come, even though He spoke it 24 years ago.

In writing this little piece here, I'm still going through the process of trying to fully identify what it is I'm seeing and it's a process.  I can't jump up and down on this freely yet because I'm still waiting for things to solidify.  However, as I'm writing this, there is a reference that did come to mind . . .


Eph. 4
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The idea that there's only one spirit seems to get over looked in some of this.

I have heard that as a point on this topic before and I see that as one HOLY Spirit, or we would not need discerning of spirits.

For me, growing in the Lord it's reaffirming what I think I already know.  Growing to me is being stretched by things I don't know.  There's a lot about God that I don't know.  And I don't want to have my head deter what my heart is trying to receive.  So I lay it all down and go from there.  If anything, listen for the sound of what I say.  I'm not speaking out of condemnation or judgment.  I'm not trying to bring conformity to you.  My purpose still is to attempt to illuminate the kingdom principles, the nature of the Father and most near and dear to me, to assist in setting people free from the bondage of their "self".

I understand. I do the same thing.

If you don't accept this, that's cool.  If you don't see it, I'm fine with that.  Things like this are prone to lead to at least "some" wonderment.  It's totally understandable.  It's very much in the face of traditional understanding, totally aware of that to.  I'm at the place anymore where I'm more apt to share what I see regardless of the nature of it's depth and let the readers and listeners take what they wish from it, rather than try to condense and conform bits and pieces of what I do understand so I can manipulate and intimidate everyone to think "this" is it.

I hope you don't think that's what I do...

We compare what others see with what we've seen and respond, hopefully in a loving manner, accordingly.  It's how we grow.

:thumbsup: :girlheart:

Discerning evil spirits Card, for me is not about devils and demons as much as it is about the motives of people, the personalities of people, the attitudes of people, to discern where "they" are coming from not so I can judge, but so that I not eat of their fruit.  For me, testing the spirits and listening for the sound is the same thing. 

Sound only comes from truth, anyting else is just a lot of noise.

and crying out with a loud voice, he said,
"What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don't torment me."
For he said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
He asked him, "What is your name?"
He said to him, "My name is Legion, for we are many."
He begged him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Now there was on the mountainside a great herd of pigs feeding.
All the demons begged him, saying,
"Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them."
At once Jesus gave them permission.
The unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs.
The herd of about two thousand rushed down the steep bank into the sea,
and they were drowned in the sea.

--Mark 5

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 03:07:49 AM
"What is your name?"
"My name is Legion, for we are many."
"Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"

Legion, the man himself, believed he was demon possessed; having an amorphous personality which lacked any definite form.

However, I have two questions (anyone?):

Why did the pigs run over the cliff into the sea?
Why did Jesus agree to the man's request?

  :Book:

Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 02:24:56 AM
Discerning evil spirits Card, for me is not about devils and demons as much as it is about the motives of people, the personalities of people, the attitudes of people, to discern where "they" are coming from not so I can judge, but so that I not eat of their fruit.  For me, testing the spirits and listening for the sound is the same thing. 

Sound only comes from truth, anyting else is just a lot of noise.

:cloud9: For me it is when HE tells me what to command into the fire of the HG and I do it. Without Him telling me, I have no idea what something is, and sometimes what looks to be obvious in that area, isn't. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: peacemaker on August 04, 2010, 07:00:16 AM
However, I have two questions (anyone?):

Why did the pigs run over the cliff into the sea?
Why did Jesus agree to the man's request?

  :Book:

:cloud9: I'll share what I've seen on it.....the pigs are in the outer court realm where the worm dieth not, which means not of the spiritual priesthood, will eat anything, corn or husk, no discerning of spirits (nose = discerning, we should not eat food if it smells spoiled, ie. wormy, laced with death).

Note the day it happened, and the number associated with it, because it's going on now. It gets darker "out there", as those of the priesthood press in to receive more, because the darkness formed from the imaginations of men's hearts is being cast "out there". This is why the wheat and the tares are raised up together, because the rain falls on the just and the unjust equally. My  :2c: Blessings....

Because the darkness formed from within the imaginations of men's hearts is being "cast out."  :thumbsup:

Superstition is based on the fate of the swine, not in the man who was clothed again in his right mind.
However, in a way it helps us to remember, not to eat anything that is unclean; an aide memoire.

Trichinella spiralis is known as the "pork worm." And, they can remain infectious for years.

peacemaker

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
--Gen 6



6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--Jude 1



4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

--2 Peter 3



37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

--Mat 24



So--what's this all about?

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 02:32:22 PM
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
--Gen 6



6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--Jude 1



4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

--2 Peter 3



37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

--Mat 24



So--what's this all about?

There are several things that I should address before taking this conversation any further . . .One thing I've come to realize when dealing with spiritual principles and sharing them with others is, the one attempting to plant, must try to be aware of the season of the one receiving the seed.  You can't plant a seed in a ground that isn't receptive to it.  If the climate isn't "in season" for planting, you're going to burn up all your energy trying to break the ground to take the seed and even if you do manage to plant it, it's still not going to take root because the climate isn't appropriate for the seed to flourish.

I "can" explain what I see on your passages, but at this point, I sense it's just more out of "defense" of what I see rather than freely giving and receiving.  For the record . . .the sons of God sleeping with the daughters of men for me, is pertaining to blending spiritual truths with natural reasoning.  It produces characteristics in people that are bigger than the people carrying the message.  Reputations that dare not be questioned.  For me, a lot of our televangelists are the giants with world reknown reputations.

But I also sense, that's not the answer you want to hear.

Perhaps my problem is that I've tried to explain the literal rendering while at the same time share the spiritual principles . . .which is to say, I may have done the same as mixing spiritual truth with natural reasoning myself.  All though, before this gets bigger than I can handle, I choose to lay it down here as well.

I think it's safe to say at this point and time, my life will not end should you continue to believe in demons and devils.  And I pray that your life should not end if I continue to see them as inward patterns and principles.  In the end, whether demons or mind controls, may God have the glory either way.

The answer I want to hear is one that makes sense.

So now the 'sons of God' are spiritual ideas?  spiritual truth?  Not real beings?  And, the 'daughters of men' represent the mind of man?  Not real human women?

At some other point, like in the New Testament, is that phrase 'sons of God' attached to real beings?  So it suddenly changes its meaning?

I think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.  God does not operate independent of physical reality. He went to a lot of work to surround us with it.   Nor do I believe he tells us made up stories.  Sarah is a real woman who had a child at 90.  The spiritual implication of that is the child of the promise who is a miracle child.  But, if God made up the story about Sarah,  what's to keep him from making up the rest?  

The comments about the demons on here is really blaming the victim, isn't it?  It's the black heart of the person producing the demon?  And, the disciples--were they just imagining the demons leaving the people they were tending to?  Was that just their vain imagination and their own black hearts that produced visions of demons submitting to the name of Jesus?

Or did it really happen the way it says it happened?  


There is no Satan, no angels, no demons, no devils, just man and God?

Then, what's the story all about--a story that takes 6000 years to unfold?

Carnal man wrestling with God for 6000 years?  That makes man pretty powerful, doesn't it?

Seems to me this contest could have been over in a millisecond.


Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 :cloud9: Interesting thought on that, Nate. I think everything in there has spiritual applications to us. Will have to contemplate that one.

Molly, as I'm the one that made the other comments pertaining to "liability" of the individual, all I can say is I reported what He said to my friend about it, and I KNOW for a fact she hears God, having seen proof of it literally thousands of times.

I have never really understood anything concrete about "how" that worked, but am gleaning little by little. It says He reproves us with our OWN wickedness and we eat of the fruit of our OWN lips, and I think that applies to this also. Also, out of the heart of man proceedeth.......

So I don't think it's as far fetched as it sounds on first glance, but there are "keys" yet to be uncovered to fully understand this, IMO.

Since we're going into "uncharted" waters on this, here's another thought for everyone's consideration. Ever have the thought that WE might be the fallen angels, ie. the spirit part of man? About 2 weeks after I had this thought come in, I shared with one friend, and 2 weeks later, she sent me a post of some woman on a board she frequented, where she had said, "Am I crazy, or are WE the fallen angels?"

Before y'all get the gallows ready  :winkgrin:, let me continue..... I think Lucifer was Adam and not Satan. First, because it says "is this the MAN", and second because his description has stones in it, like like the breastplate of the High Priest, and the walls of the city. Adam was the anointed cherubim that covereth to begin with, because he was set in the garden with priestly duties, made evident by his sons understanding of sacrifices.

Third, I've shared this before, but I had a dream vision decades ago, in which I saw jewels in my chest area set in gold, and the Lord spoke to me and said, "Restoration back to the anointed cherubim that covereth. I don't have all the answers obviously, but there is SOMETHING there, that's all I'm saying. There are deeper depths to go. Blessings....  

Quote from: peacemaker on August 04, 2010, 07:00:16 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 03:07:49 AM
"What is your name?"
"My name is Legion, for we are many."
"Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"

Legion, the man himself, believed he was demon possessed; having an amorphous personality which lacked any definite form.

However, I have two questions (anyone?):

Why did the pigs run over the cliff into the sea?
Why did Jesus agree to the man's request?

  :Book:

Think about it, all those demons were contained in the man and made him a lunatic, so what would be the result if these demons went from him to another?
They would become a lunatic right?
So the pigs were struck with madness and in a massive huff, ran over the cliff, they could not contain themselves.
The mans request? he was to insane to ask for help, the people asked the lord to help him and he did by casting out the demons. The demons did not desire to be thrown into the abyss, this must be the same abyss that the bible records where fallen angels sinned during the time of Noah. So Jesus in his mercy, recognized that these demons were respectful and so granted them another house to live in, the house of pigs, which didn't last very long, it seems the demons built their house upon sand, or as Genesis says to the serpent
Dust thou shall eat the remaining days of your life.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 06:19:20 PM

Since we're going into "uncharted" waters on this, here's another thought for everyone's consideration. Ever have the thought that WE might be falled angels, ie. the spirit part of man? About 2 weeks after I had this thought come in, I shared with one friend, and 2 weeks later, she sent me a post of some woman on a board she frequented, where she had said, "Am I crazy, or are WE the fallen angels?"

I have thought this Card and discussed it with some friends and I was basically crucified which did 2 things.................suggested to me I might be on to something and stopped further discussions with my friends!

cp

Molly, I'm trying not to turn this into an arguement . . .I think between you, me and the rest of creation it's safe to say no one has a monopoly on any of the Scriptures to the point that we can become aggressive about our personal beliefs.   We all can very well be aggressively wrong.  We claim to see through the glass darkly while at the same time rise up against another for not seeing things "as clearly" as we see them.

I have NEVER stated the things your accusing me of.  I've never stated that you throw away the natural, the literal . . .I've never stated "suddenly it's changed it's meaning".  I've always stated there was a real David and Goliath and all of that.  I've never cut off the literal completely.

We're getting all bent out of shape over a doctrine that has no bearing on our relationship with the Father.  Demons or not, it doesn't make any difference so why the angst?  So I see things differently, and as I thought I had clearly shared, I'm not all that confident about all of it anyway.  I'm just not so quick to embrace something that was taught by the traditional thinking church.  

Obviously there was corruption in Noah's day . . .but who's to say that the "sons of God sleeping with daughters of men" wasn't a metaphor anyway?  There were no specifics mentioned outside of that.  No names, no storylines . . . just a general statement.  I admit, my doctrine in that area is a shaky one.

You're the second person here that's trying to say I'm claiming it's all in your imagination.  I've not said that either.  I did however try to clarify how I saw 2 Corinthians 10 is more about the battle of warfare "is" in our minds.  That particular post seems to have been ignored.  And that's my issue . . it doesn't all fit.  If it was all about demons and devils, then why doesn't everything fit that pattern?  Why then does Paul break it down about vain imaginations, taking captive our "thoughts".  If  it's supposed to be about praying against demons, why is the emphasis then about knowledge and thoughts?

I used to believe same as you.  I used to embrace literal fallen angels leaving their spiritual domain and having sex with literal women . . .yet if these were spiritual beings, I thought that in the spirit there was neither male nor female?  Why is there no mention that female angels slept with men of flesh?  I'm not so willing to let my mind come to it's own conclusions anymore.  I'm not going to say what I don't see.  

If I want to truly pursue Christ . . .then what good does it do to study about demons and the devil?  I'm to have the power to walk on serpents and not be harmed am I not?  If this is true then it shouldn't matter what breed the snake was, it can't harm me either way.

Flesh profiteth nothing.  Emphasizing the natural understanding of things only distracts me from pursuing the spiritual.  Yes, there's a natural side, but what specific benefit does this do for me spiritually to know that fallen angels had sex with natural women?  If that's all I get out of the story, what's the benefit?  Other than instilling fear that all those huge guys in the NBA are offspring of devils and demons?

If a person is demon possessed as you see it, or out of spiritual alignment as I see it, we both lay hands on the person and release a prayer of faith, do you not think that the person will be healed either way?  As I said before, I may have blurred the lines of what's spiritual and what's natural before which caused me to say things that created a disruption in you.  I apologize for that.  But I've never said it's all a metaphor.  I've always held that it's all in dimensions.  And the emphasis I beleive we're to pursue is not the natural or physical, but the spiritual.

If I see there is in me, sons of God, the spiritual realm, sleeping with the daughters of men . . .spiritual becoming intimate with my carnality . . .if I can see "that" as a pattern "in me", then that's worth seeing and knowing because that can affect my daily walk should I let it continue.

Would it make you feel any better if I said this instead?
In the first dimension, there are demons, there are fallen angels and there is a devil.  But in the third dimension, it's more about mindsets, carnal thinking and a traducing mind in general?

And wrap that up by saying we're to walk in the spirit and and not dwell on what's written in the flesh???  That's essentially what I am trying to say in all of this.

Card, I just read your latest post . . .and I find that your perspective on "us" possibly being the fallen angels is most profound and very deep.

Before y'all get the gallows ready  winkgrin, let me continue..... I think Lucifer was Adam and not Satan. First, because it says "is this the MAN", and second because his description has stones in it, like like the breastplate of the High Priest, and the walls of the city. Adam was the anointed cherubim that covereth to begin with, because he was set in the garden with priestly duties, made evident by his sons understanding of sacrifices.


I have not heard this version before the idea Lucifier is a man. But let me shed some light.
Ok the devil gets thrown in to the lake of fire in the end, but to me God is love and does not torture people for nothing. I belive Satans punishment for his wickedness will be 1000 years in prison.
But I belive that scripture is saying that Satan is a man because God will convert Satan from a spirit being into a man, so that he can destroy him in a lake of fire. There is another scripture that compliments this idea. If I find it I will edit this post and put it in.

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 05:36:25 PMI think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 06:55:56 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 05:36:25 PMI think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

I've been reading this thread and I would just like to caution everyone to please be very prayerful.  We are to be as children - I believe that anyone can read the Bible and understand it.  I think sometimes we try to be too spiritual, too clever, too "wise in our own estimation" and can get carried away. 

Yes there are deeper meanings that the Holy Spirit will speak to our heart. But there is also the obvious and simple meaning. 

Satan and demons and angels are presented in scripture as beings for a reason.  To say "I believe in UR so they no longer have a place in my belief, so what else could it mean?" is very backward, to me.  We shouldn't start with what we believe and then try to figure out how to fit scripture into that ... we start with scripture and it should determine our beliefs.

I don't mean this toward any one person; only as an overall caution meant in a loving way to us all as we reason together   :grouppray:

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 06:19:20 PMEver have the thought that WE might be falled angels

^KJVJud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So that means we exited before. We reincatated when we were born on this planet after leaving our first estate.

Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2010, 06:54:47 PM
I have not heard this version before the idea Lucifier is a man. But let me shed some light (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0395512/).
Ok the devil gets thrown in to the lake of fire  in the end,

^KJVHeb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
6 billion flames = a lake  :eek:

Quote from: LS on August 04, 2010, 07:06:05 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 06:55:56 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 05:36:25 PMI think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

I've been reading this thread and I would just like to caution everyone to please be very prayerful.  We are to be as children - I believe that anyone can read the Bible and understand it.  I think sometimes we try to be too spiritual, too clever, too "wise in our own estimation" and can get carried away. 

Yes there are deeper meanings that the Holy Spirit will speak to our heart. But there is also the obvious and simple meaning. 

Satan and demons and angels are presented in scripture as beings for a reason.  To say "I believe in UR so they no longer have a place in my belief, so what else could it mean?" is very backward, to me.  We shouldn't start with what we believe and then try to figure out how to fit scripture into that ... we start with scripture and it should determine our beliefs.

I don't mean this toward any one person; only as an overall caution meant in a loving way to us all as we reason together   :grouppray:

Good post. I think a lot of the problem comes from fear, the ideal of UR is everyones saved but the devil poses a problem to that belief. But everyone is welcome to their own interpretation but the danger is they are weakening their power as a Christian and are less able to combat Satans devices. To me the love for all to be saved including Satan, is more about empathy than love, for only God can love all people and he has made it known that the final destination of Satan is the lake of fire, which means we do not have to fear him, as he was defeated on the cross. The final words of Jesus confirms our power over the enemy. :2c:

Quote from: LS on August 04, 2010, 07:06:05 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 06:55:56 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2010, 05:36:25 PMI think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

I've been reading this thread and I would just like to caution everyone to please be very prayerful....

Yes there are deeper meanings that the Holy Spirit will speak to our heart. But there is also the obvious and simple meaning.  

Satan and demons and angels are presented in scripture as beings for a reason.  To say "I believe in UR so they no longer have a place in my belief, so what else could it mean?" is very backward, to me.  We shouldn't start with what we believe and then try to figure out how to fit scripture into that ... we start with scripture and it should determine our beliefs.

I don't mean this toward any one person; only as an overall caution meant in a loving way to us all as we reason together   :grouppray:

Amen, Amen.  We need to be careful.  Our mind is a powerful thing, while at the same time having many weaknesses.  Thus, lean not to our own understanding, and be careful of our vain imaginations.   The Spirit revelation, within the written Word.  They work together.  I've read some really great revelations about the scriptures on TM.  But I've also seen some "spiritual insights" that clearly were in opposition to the scriptures.  Not even iffy.  Paul said one thing, the posters said the exact opposite.  Who's to be believed?  (rhetorical question).

Good posts.   :thumbsup:

I used to believe same as you.  I used to embrace literal fallen angels leaving their spiritual domain and having sex with literal women . . .yet if these were spiritual beings, I thought that in the spirit there was neither male nor female?  Why is there no mention that female angels slept with men of flesh?  I'm not so willing to let my mind come to it's own conclusions anymore.  I'm not going to say what I don't see.  


You may not have noticed this but every angel in scripture is described as a male, please name me one female angel, I have not found any yet?
Gabriel who delivered the message to Mary?, Male.
Angel who was in Jesus Tomb? Male.
Michael the archangel who fights the devil during Daniels time? Male
The Angels who accompanied lot ? Male
Lucifier? is described as a man in ezekiel so also male
Sure there is nether male nor female, but in the spirit dimension, they would probably prefer to manifest masculine qualities, similar to the lord.

If I want to truly pursue Christ . . .then what good does it do to study about demons and the devil?  I'm to have the power to walk on serpents and not be harmed am I not?  If this is true then it shouldn't matter what breed the snake was, it can't harm me either way.

I think it helps. I have learned a great deal from demons and the devil recently and it is a great help. In fact I am amazed by the amount of scriptures that talk about the devil and demons, I am amazed. I thought there were maybe about 6 scriptures in the whole bible. It helps in that one has a better understanding of the world we live in and the evils people commit and how many people are in bondage to demons and, even when sharing the love of God they still struggle with bondages. To me it is a great skill or even a gift from God to discern between someone who needs emotional/spiritual healing and someone who is vexed and in bondage to a demonic spirit.

Flesh profiteth nothing.  Emphasizing the natural understanding of things only distracts me from pursuing the spiritual.  Yes, there's a natural side, but what specific benefit does this do for me spiritually to know that fallen angels had sex with natural women?  If that's all I get out of the story, what's the benefit?  Other than instilling fear that all those huge guys in the NBA are offspring of devils and demons?

I am not keen on this story I find it repulsive, this is not the best example of focusing on the natural. Though where one should focus on the natural?. A great story of the natural in place is when Jesus heals people the deaf the blind the maimed. It is through the weakness of the flesh, that these people experienced a real love from God and it is through natural understanding one can appreciate this.
Another example is how Jesus became a carpenter. Such a job is not what one would call spiritual, but rather it is a common job that people associate, jack the lad types. This to me shows that God is not so far from us, that the common man cannot reach him, but rather he is willing to come down to our naturalness and touch us in a special way, to me this speaks volumes of the love of God, more than say any spiritual experience, that he is willing to get down and dirty and do the grunts work.
Of course any spiritual experience is nice and the bible says to seek spiritual gifts etc and to continually pray.

As for the nba players, I think that the giants were all slain. The flood killed most and Israel killed the rest during their quest to enter the promise land. The giants were a bit taller than NBA players, their walls in the city reached into heaven and we were as grasshoppers in their sight.

If a person is demon possessed as you see it, or out of spiritual alignment as I see it, we both lay hands on the person and release a prayer of faith, do you not think that the person will be healed either way?  As I said before, I may have blurred the lines of what's spiritual and what's natural before which caused me to say things that created a disruption in you.  I apologize for that.  But I've never said it's all a metaphor.  I've always held that it's all in dimensions.  And the emphasis I beleive we're to pursue is not the natural or physical, but the spiritual.

If your looking to heal the sick sometimes it might be a demon causing the sickness, this I learn from the scriptures. But the trouble is, casting out demons is not allways spiritually benificial for the person, for sometimes the person is involved in sin which attracts the demons and it is better not to cast them out until the person repents, for if the demon is cast out, they might reenter through the persons, love or bondage to sin.

Which is more "out there"?  Seeing satan is between my ears, or believing satan is going to be redeemed through the lake of fire?

Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 08:17:07 PM
Which is more "out there"?  Seeing satan is between my ears, or believing satan is going to be redeemed through the lake of fire?

Are you asking me? I would say the second choice. The whole bible mentions the redemption of the world through Christ but there is not a word concerning redemption for Satan, other than that he's is thrown into a lake of fire and if one makes the conclusion that he is being purifed by fire then that is a very large leap to make.

The idea of the devil between your ears is much more plausible for Jesus regularly mentioned that the carnal Pharisses were doing the lusts of their father the devil, many times, he even called Peter Satan when he became carnally minded.

Since the devil used to be the bright morning star, perhaps he is similar to a giant broadcating station that sends evil thoughts to humanity, similar in which the sun sends rays of sunshine. The reason I say this is because the bible calls workers of unrighteousness sons of the devil.
But I also argue with myself that rebellious thoughts come through the tree of good and evil. But then I look at Genesis and Adam and Eve had evil thoughts of wanting to be God before eating the tree, and the source of these lies came from Serpent the devil.

Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2010, 08:05:26 PMAnother example is how Jesus became a carpenter. Such a job is not what one would call spiritual, but rather it is a common job that people associate, jack the lad types.

:2c: Jesus' family had quite some status. (not speaking about spiritual things) Jesus was no carpenter. He was a "tekton". That's someone that makes wooden contructions. Bridges for example.
Jesus did also build spiritual bridges :winkgrin:

QuoteIf your looking to heal the sick sometimes it might be a demon causing the sickness, this I learn from the scriptures. But the trouble is, casting out demons is not allways spiritually benificial for the person, for sometimes the person is involved in sin which attracts the demons and it is better not to cast them out until the person repents, for if the demon is cast out, they might reenter through the persons, love or bondage to sin.

You have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2010, 08:38:12 PMSince the devil used to be the bright morning star,

The king of Babylon is the morning star... :2c:

Quote from: claypot on August 04, 2010, 06:51:08 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 06:19:20 PM

Since we're going into "uncharted" waters on this, here's another thought for everyone's consideration. Ever have the thought that WE might be falled angels, ie. the spirit part of man? About 2 weeks after I had this thought come in, I shared with one friend, and 2 weeks later, she sent me a post of some woman on a board she frequented, where she had said, "Am I crazy, or are WE the fallen angels?"

I have thought this Card and discussed it with some friends and I was basically crucified which did 2 things.................suggested to me I might be on to something and stopped further discussions with my friends!

cp

:cloud9: Well, that's why I only told ONE friend at the time. I felt it was dropped into my spirit by the HS, but it was SO out there, it shook me. Blessings....

If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 08:47:45 PM

Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2010, 08:05:26 PMAnother example is how Jesus became a carpenter. Such a job is not what one would call spiritual, but rather it is a common job that people associate, jack the lad types.

:2c: Jesus' family had quite some status. (not speaking about spiritual things) Jesus was no carpenter. He was a "tekton". That's someone that makes wooden contructions. Bridges for example.
Jesus did also build spiritual bridges :winkgrin:

An advanced carpenter, it still a hands based work though right?
Some snoby quotes by the upper classes
Where did he learn? the Pharisses
Isn't this the son of Mary and Joseph, who we know
Nothing good comes out of Gailee
Also I'm not sure about the status of the familly, I'm not an expert here but I think that the Pharisses expected Jesus to come from a line of kingship, Davids line but Jesus came through the line of Nathaniel? Nathan? considered the lowly line. I will abase him that is excalted and excalt those that are abase.

QuoteIf your looking to heal the sick sometimes it might be a demon causing the sickness, this I learn from the scriptures. But the trouble is, casting out demons is not allways spiritually benificial for the person, for sometimes the person is involved in sin which attracts the demons and it is better not to cast them out until the person repents, for if the demon is cast out, they might reenter through the persons, love or bondage to sin.

You have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

Thank you I try my best. :bigGrin:

Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2010, 09:16:37 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 08:47:45 PMYou have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

Thank you I try my best. :bigGrin:

Put that grin away TT  :laughing7:
Do you have any idea what "knack" means/is?  :pointlaugh:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 09:23:09 PM

Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2010, 09:16:37 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 08:47:45 PMYou have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

Thank you I try my best. :bigGrin:

Put that grin away TT  :laughing7:
Do you have any idea what "knack" means/is?  :pointlaugh:

knack [næk]
n
1. a skilful, ingenious, or resourceful way of doing something
2. a particular talent or aptitude, esp an intuitive one


I thought perhaps you were joking, but thank you I appreciate your kind comment, this time my smile is even more genuine.  :bigGrin:

Having a knack means you are possesed  :laughing7:

Knack is the name of an ancient demon.
If you allowed him to posses you he gave you a special ability in return.
If you have a knack for singing it means demon Knack gave you a good voice as a gift.

So people all pray to cast out TT's Knack  :pointlaugh:

Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 08:58:15 PM
If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

:cloud9: Pause for thought....if you look at that "fractionally", man being SPIRIT, soul and body, could the 1/3 part that fell, be the spirit part??? You know we have to have had a different sort of body, just as Adam did before the fall, so I could see the spirit fall, since the spirit was in union with Father until then, causing everything else to be "lowered" as well, beginning with that. Blessings...

Jeeze Card, I got pushed around a little today with the idea I spiritualize things too much and yet you keep posting stuff I see on that spiritual side as well.  Except, the third of messengers (angels) that I see falling is the dimension of the flesh.  Spirit may get buried by flesh in the order of things, but I don't know if it's actually "fallen".  But I do see the same principle here.

Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 10:58:20 PM
Jeeze Card, I got pushed around a little today with the idea I spiritualize things too much and yet you keep posting stuff I see on that spiritual side as well.  Except, the third of messengers (angels) that I see falling is the dimension of the flesh.  Spirit may get buried by flesh in the order of things, but I don't know if it's actually "fallen".  But I do see the same principle here.

dahh Card had to spoil things for us, card we are trying to get nathan on a spiritual diet  :laughing7:
his belly has excess water  :laughing7:

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 10:43:25 PM

Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 08:58:15 PM
If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

:cloud9: Pause for thought....if you look at that "fractionally", man being SPIRIT, soul and body, could the 1/3 part that fell, be the spirit part??? You know we have to have had a different sort of body, just as Adam did before the fall, so I could see the spirit fall, since the spirit was in union with Father until then, causing everything else to be "lowered" as well, beginning with that. Blessings...

Lemme guess lowered=slowed down  :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 09:58:22 PM
Having a knack means you are possesed  :laughing7:

Knack is the name of an ancient demon.
If you allowed him to posses you he gave you a special ability in return.
If you have a knack for singing it means demon Knack gave you a good voice as a gift.

So people all pray to cast out TT's Knack  :pointlaugh:

But if Satan cast out satan how will his kingdom stand?

Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 10:58:20 PM
Jeeze Card, I got pushed around a little today with the idea I spiritualize things too much and yet you keep posting stuff I see on that spiritual side as well.  Except, the third of messengers (angels) that I see falling is the dimension of the flesh.  Spirit may get buried by flesh in the order of things, but I don't know if it's actually "fallen".  But I do see the same principle here.

:cloud9: I can't see it as the flesh being the FIRST fallen thing, though, because I think the spirit "being" part of us is what was first, as in we were one with Him from the foundation of the world, or pre-Adam, as sons of God.

Jesus being made, A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, to me, means we were made (in this realm) a little lower than the angels. He was referred to as the angel of the Lord in the OT, so if we were one with Him from the foundation = BEFORE He was made a little lower than the angels......?

Also, I don't have the words in place yet to explain what I'm seeing, but since it's the spirit salvation that happens first (and then the rest of the triune being), then what "state" was it in? See what I'm saying???

Quote from: thinktank on August 04, 2010, 11:38:03 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 09:58:22 PM
Having a knack means you are possesed  :laughing7:

Knack is the name of an ancient demon.
If you allowed him to posses you he gave you a special ability in return.
If you have a knack for singing it means demon Knack gave you a good voice as a gift.

So people all pray to cast out TT's Knack  :pointlaugh:

But if Satan cast out satan how will his kingdom stand?

If a frog is not a hamster, then why elephants are not yellow?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 11:35:44 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 10:43:25 PM

Quote from: Nathan on August 04, 2010, 08:58:15 PM
If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

:cloud9: Pause for thought....if you look at that "fractionally", man being SPIRIT, soul and body, could the 1/3 part that fell, be the spirit part??? You know we have to have had a different sort of body, just as Adam did before the fall, so I could see the spirit fall, since the spirit was in union with Father until then, causing everything else to be "lowered" as well, beginning with that. Blessings...

Lemme guess lowered=slowed down  :winkgrin:

:cloud9: You got it  :thumbsup:.....the Spirit QUICKENS us, BECAUSE we have been slowed down.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 11:49:43 PMJesus being made, A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, to me, means we were made (in this realm) a little lower than the angels.

Or... we are angels and and Jesus was lower than us because He was the suffering servant.
(Servants are lower by defenition.)

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 11:50:32 PM
If a frog is not a hamster, then why elephants are not yellow?

:cloud9: ??? WW, as your friend, I feel is my duty to take the "keys" to your computer at this point, as you clearly are in no condition to "drive" home...... :Party: :LH:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 11:54:28 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 11:49:43 PMJesus being made, A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, to me, means we were made (in this realm) a little lower than the angels.

Or... we are angels and and Jesus was lower than us because He was the suffering servant.
(Servants are lower by defenition.)

We will become as angels, all thanks to Jesus Christ. This mortal must put on immortality.

The first man Adam was of the earth, but the second man is the lord from heaven.

I think were barking up the wrong tree here, thinking we are angels now or in the past. Nice thought though.

 :cloud9: Yes, we will, and consider this with your statement......we are being RESTORED to what we WERE.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2010, 11:57:48 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2010, 11:50:32 PM
If a frog is not a hamster, then why elephants are not yellow?

:cloud9: ??? WW, as your friend, I feel is my duty to take the "keys" to your computer at this point, as you clearly are in no condition to "drive" home...... :Party: :LH:

I was just helping TT to avoid the post  :icon_jokercolor:

Shutting down my hard drive in a mo :winkgrin:

I don't think we are the fallen angels because--

1)that would mean this world is hell, which maybe I could go along with lol, but--

2)Jesus will share his throne with us, we are co-inheritors with Christ, and what angel did he ever call a son?

3)Eve was deceived but Adam was not.  Adam knew he would not be like God and that he would die.  He also knew that if he stayed in the garden and obeyed God's command, he would never die.  That's what it means to be not deceived.  Therefore--

4)Adam did not believe the claims of the serpent, and did what he did for other reasons of his own.

5) This idea of 'sons of God' in the Old Testament brings up the issue of the divine council which gives a whole new dimension to the Bible that has been lost.   If the 'fallen angels' were originally members of the Divine Council [who are really some type of spiritual son, not angel] that rebelled against God and decided to take man down in the process, we now have a drama going on that makes sense of a lot of passages that don't otherwise make sense.

Here's the divine council described by Job--

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1

6) One could argue that this drama with the sons of God took place before the creation of Adam [were they the cause of the earth becoming without form and void?], and that God created Adam as an eventual replacement for those who left their first estate, which would explain why the Serpent was so motivated to murder Adam from the beginning.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--John 1

7) [postulate:--]  I think a lot of this information has been lost to the church as the Bible has been purposely de-mystified by church leaders, making the Bible all about man instead of about a war in the heavenlies which intricately involves us.  But, they could not take the passages out of the Bible that pointed to it.  Our confusion about these passages arises out of missing key information and erroneous teaching.

You can chain me.
You can torture me.
You can even destroy this body.
But you will never imprison me again, for it is finished.

Satan, as lightning falls from heaven. The surrendering of all limiting beliefs, must give way to the Spirit of Truth for the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn that shines brighter and brighter, until the full day. It leads to life above to the wise; departing from the grave, beneath:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer [morning star], son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground as in man, the first Adam?

"We are chained in darkness, until the day of our judgment in righteousness."

Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding of the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world – the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition or temperament of the soul. This mark extends deep down from the surface, yet is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to humanity when in opposition to the Spirit, as:

"The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."

But the Spirit liberates all those enslaved, each in their own time.

peacemaker

 :cloud9: Let me play devil's advocate for a few, while we hash this out. What angel did He ever call a son? The Angel of the Lord.....perhaps our understanding of angels has been tainted by the carnal mind as well?

It would stand to reason, since I don't think much of anything that we can comprehend with our carnal minds ALONE from the letter understanding does not have a deeper hidden meaning, or a deeper understanding, at the very least. After all, all of it including creation, is made after a spiritual pattern in the heavenlies.  

If Satan was an angel and he came in with the sons, one of several things is going on here.

A) the sons are angels too
B) Satan is a son
C) both A and B are true
D) Satan is a part of the sons


PS. @ Molly.....I agree with your number "7" postulate....

Except the linguist [expert on ancient Hebrew] tells us that 'satan' in the Old Testament is only ever used as a title [i.e. 'the prosecutor'].  So different beings can take that role.

This would mean there are ZERO verses in the OT that have a personal name "satan", and ZERO references to Satan as a cosmic evil entity as in the NT.

--Michael Heiser


That quote I used about the angels comes from this verse--


Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


I know the JW think Jesus is an angel [michael, actually], and this verse shows he is not.  He is the Son of God.

So there is a difference between sons and angels, [although I do still think that angels can also refer to men on some occasions--pastors, prophets, and priests per the Hebrew definition.]

"Mystification is an element within the church that continues to mislead; a fundamental principle."

peacemaker

 :cloud9: @ Molly....I hear you, I do.....but there is something more that has not been seen. Too many loose threads need tying up, at least for me. And I have no idea what the JW's believe.......Blessings....

Just so we know what we are talking about--

"mystical"

1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.
5. Unintelligible; cryptic.


There are a lot of mystical aspects to our Bible that the modern church rarely touches.  For instance, when I first read about the transfiguration of Christ, I was blown away because no church or pastor had ever mentioned it.  Other examples, include the apostles transporting themselves in time and space, e.g. Philip after he baptizes the eunuch.  This is what I mean by de-mystification--they are removing parts of the Bible that are too mystical for them to deal with.


And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more: but he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
--Acts 8

'caught away'  --that's the 'rapture' verb, by the way, --"harpazo."

 :cloud9: That's VERY true Molly.....He is busy restoring what was lost in that category, too, in this hour.

Did you ever think it strange in Revelation He tells John to write letters to the ANGELS of the 7 churches? Letters clearly written to men, who He is telling to "shape up" basically.

And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more: but he went on his way rejoicing. Philip was found at Azotus: passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

The apostles were transporting themselves in time and space?

I do not believe that is what this verse is implying:

"And the eunuch saw him no more, as he went on his way; rejoicing."

Here's what I call the 'dick and jane bible' lol--much clearer to read.


36-37As they traveled along the road, they came to some water. The official said, "Look! Here is water! Why shouldn't I be baptized?" 38 He gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the official went down into the water. Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away. The official did not see him again. He went on his way full of joy. 40 Philip was seen next at Azotus. From there he traveled all around. He preached the good news in all the towns. Finally he arrived in Caesarea.

--Acts 8


Philip disappears in front of the eunuch's eyes and reappears in Azotus.  The eunuch goes on his way rejoicing.  I bet.  That was some baptism.

Here's another one--



39 And when they were come up of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched (up) Philip, and the gelding saw him no more; and he went in his way joying.

   40 And Philip was found in Azotus; and he passed forth, and preached to all cities [and he passing forth, evangelized to all cities], till he came to Caesarea.

--[Wycliffe]



"snatched up"

G726
αρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The road to Emmaus

28 Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He indicated that He would have gone farther. 29 But they constrained Him, saying, "Abide with us, for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent." And He went in to stay with them.
30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.

--Luke 24


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXppKdV0Ut0


"vanished"

G855
αφαντος
aphantos
af'-an-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5316; non manifested, that is, invisible: - vanished out of sight.

 :cloud9: I've also heard of bi-location, where one is seen somewhere else. It happened to the most unlikely to believe it person, my first sort of spiritual mentor, an old man the Lord led me to when I was first saved. He had a very distinct look about him and he was seen by someone in a place he was not, and ministered to them. It happened more than once.

Since He was always walking thru them in their midst, I personally don't see why He couldn't do whatever He wants with someone. I know what Paul meant about whether in the body or not, because He has caught me up and taken me somewhere else, yet my body was still where it had been, praying with others. The only noticable change was that I stopped praying. So had to be my spirit taken?

So I don't see where it would be any big thing for Him to take the whole man where He wants. Fear in man keeps Him from doing a lot more than He does. My  :2c: Blessings....

ANGEL O.T. H4397  mal'âk= a messenger.

ANGEL N.T. G32  aggelos=  a messenger;

I suggest that by not translating the word angel, as a messenger, that there has been many an imagination stirred.
Gabriel = O.T. and N.T. H1403... man of God  (Dan. 9:21 Luke 1:19)
Michael =O.T. and N.T  H4317... who is like God (Dan. 12:1  Jude 1:9)
Also, this expression "fallen angels" I have not yet found it in the Bible.
Do I believe in the celesital? Yes.
This is just my  :2c:  as usual

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 05, 2010, 07:08:34 PMAlso, this expression "fallen angels" I have not yet found it in the Bible.

I think it orginates from:
^KJVRev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

---

Etymology
This subject also relates to the etymology and meaning of the phrase sons of God.
"Nephilim" (נְפִילִים) probably derives from the Hebrew root npl (נָפַל), "to fall" which also includes "to cause to fall" and "to kill, to ruin". The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon gives the meaning as "giants"[1] Robert Baker Girdlestone[2] argued the word comes from the Hiphil causative stem. Adam Clarke took it as passive, "fallen", "apostates". Ronald Hendel states that it is a passive form "ones who have fallen", equivalent grammatically to paqid "one who is appointed" (i.e. overseer), asir, "one who is bound", (i.e. prisoner) etc.[3][4]
Full article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim)

---

Hebrew "angel"


H4397
מלאך
mal'âk
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.





11And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.


Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.


"Gabriel"

H1403
גּבריאל
gabrıy'êl
gab-ree-ale'
From H1397 and H410; man of God Gabriel, an archangel: - Gabriel.



22And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.
--Luke 1

Gen 15:12  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram;
H5307 to fall
Gen 6:4  There were giants H5303  a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

If the idea of fallen angels came from Rev.12 how is where ever I hear this spoke of is in Gen.6 several books before Rev.
Again, I suggest that by not translating the word angel, as a messenger, that there has been many an imagination stirred.
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.
May I ask just what a prophet, priest, or teacher is if not an messenger?
"Gabriel" H1403
From H1397 and H410; man of God Gabriel, an archangel: - Gabriel. I dont believe that is true; it is my understanding from the Bible there is only ONE archangel
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel
Jud 1:9  But Michael the archangel
Michael H4317 Who is like God





The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon gives the meaning as "giants" I have that lexicon.

 :cloud9: I think there are supposed to be 4 archangels.....Micheal, Gabriel and two others I can't remember right now. I may have pulled this from Jasher or Enoch, though. It's been a long time since I looked into it.  :dontknow:

Quote from: Cardinal on August 05, 2010, 10:56:55 PM
:cloud9: I think there are supposed to be 4 archangels.....Micheal, Gabriel and two others I can't remember right now. I have pulled this from Jasher or Enoch, though. It's been a long time since I looked into it.  :dontknow:

I think lucifer was considred an archangel before he fell, im not sure though, bible says anointed cherun that covereth and morning star, I don't know why they called him an archangel, though.

He's not.  That's another misinterpretation.  Only two times in all of Scripture is "archangel" used.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Quote from: Nathan on August 05, 2010, 11:41:49 PM
He's not.  That's another misinterpretation.  Only two times in all of Scripture is "archangel" used.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Thank you, but if only Michael is mentioned, so Gabriel is not an archangel?

Quote from: Nathan on August 05, 2010, 11:41:49 PM
He's not.  That's another misinterpretation.  Only two times in all of Scripture is "archangel" used.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Thank you. At least thats all in the 66 books. Dont know about Enoch and Jasher although I have looked into them.
Thats correct, Gabriel is not an archangel.

They call me...."Thats That."  Glory and a double Amen. :thumbsup:

The Hebrew and Greek, both indicate that this word Angel denotes a "Messenger" who is sent by the Spirit for a specific purpose. There are numerous descriptions given by the imaginations of men as to what an Angel is, although the Scriptures do not say anything else. We only know that many of these so called Messengers/Angels have forsaken their first estate (love, power, and good judgment) for that of Medieval Angelology.

"An immortal Spirit is not subjected to sin and death; an imperishable truth."

peacemaker

This is from wikipedia--


Gabri-el, "God is my strong man/hero"[1]) is an archangel who serves as a messenger from God. He first appears in the Old Testament Book of Daniel, delivering explanations of Daniel's visions. Based on two passages in the Gospel of Luke, Gabriel foretold the births of both John the Baptist and Jesus. Christians of the catholic traditions refer to him as Saint Gabriel the Archangel.

Old Testament
In the book of Daniel, chapters 8:15-26 and 9:20-27, a being resembling a man and identified as Gabriel appears to the prophet Daniel to give him "skill and understanding" regarding his visions. In chapters 10:5-12:13, an unidentified being "dressed in linen" with the appearance of a man speaks with Daniel regarding future events. He tells Daniel that he had been sent to him but had been withstood by the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" for 21 days and that Michael (who is called a "chief prince") had to intervene in order for him to reach Daniel. This messenger is not specifically named but is interpreted contextually by some Christians to be Gabriel once again.

New Testament
First, concerning John the Baptist, an angel appeared to his parents, as narrated in Luke 1:10–20 (MKJV):

"And all the multitude of the people were praying outside at the time of incense. (11) And an angel of the Lord appeared to him as he was standing on the right of the altar of incense. (12) And seeing this, Zacharias was troubled, and fear fell on him.

(13) But the angel said to him, Do not fear, Zacharias. For your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. (14) And you shall have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice at his birth. (15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall neither drink wine nor strong drink. And he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. (16) And he shall turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. (17) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

(18) And Zacharias said to the angel, By what shall I know this? For I am old, and my wife is advanced in her days.

(19) And answering, the angel said to him, I am Gabriel, who stands before God. And I am sent to speak to you and to show you these glad tidings. (20) And behold, you shall be silent and not able to speak until the day that these things shall be performed, because you did not believe my words which shall be fulfilled in their time.[end]

Shortly afterwards, announcing the forthcoming birth of Jesus, Gabriel is said to appear again, this time to Elizabeth's close relative Mary; see Luke 1:26–37 (MKJV)

(26) And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, (27) to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. (28) And the angel came in to her and said, Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.

(29) And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what kind of greeting this might be. (30) And the angel said to her, Do not fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God. (31) And behold! You shall conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. (32) He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give him the throne of his father David. (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

(34) Then Mary said to the angel, How shall this be, since I know not man?

(35) And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come on you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you. Therefore also that Holy One which will be born of you shall be called Son of God. (36) And behold, your cousin Elizabeth also conceived a son in her old age. And this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. (37) For with God nothing shall be impossible.[end]

Gabriel only appears in these two passages in Luke and not in the other three Gospels.

According to the non-canonical Enoch 9:1–2, Gabriel, along with Michael, Raphael, Uriel and Suriel hear the cries of humanity under the strain of the Nephilim. It was their beseeching of "the Ancient of Days" (Yahweh), that prompted God to call Enoch to prophethood.

After Enoch informed the Watchers of their fall from grace, Yahweh sent the archangels to earth to complete various tasks. In Enoch 10:13, Gabriel was to "Go to the biters, to the reprobates, to the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth and excite them against one another. Let them perish under mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs." And so, Gabriel instigated wars among the Giants (the children of the Watchers).

Enoch 20:7 says that Gabriel presides over "Ikisat" (the fiery serpents) or Seraphim, Cherubim, and paradise, while Enoch 40:9 states that Gabriel presides over "all that is powerful."

--wikipedia

Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2010, 05:41:28 AM
The Hebrew and Greek, both indicate that this word Angel denotes a "Messenger" who is sent by the Spirit for a specific purpose. There are numerous descriptions given by the imaginations of men as to what an Angel is, although the Scriptures do not say anything else. We only know that many of these so called Messengers/Angels have forsaken their first estate (love, power, and good judgment) for that of Medieval Angelology.

"An immortal Spirit is not subjected to sin and death; an imperishable truth."

peacemaker

"An immortal Spirit is not subjected to sin and death; an imperishable truth." who said that?

"numerous descriptions given by the imaginations of men as to what an Angel is, although the Scriptures do not say anything else"!!!!!!
Amen
for that of Medieval Angelology What is that? and "so called Messengers/Angels?"

Angels are and were mesengers, prophets, teachers, priests, men; even perhaps us.

Another mysterious passage--


Daniel 4:17
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.


"the watchers"

H5894
עיר
‛ıyr
eer
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to H5782; a watcher, that is, an angel (as guardian): - watcher.

 :cloud9: I remember reading somewhere one time about there being 7 archangels.....perhaps in old Jewish writings??? Not sure. In a discussion about Gabriel one day, a friend remarked, that Gabriel was the "revelation angel" ie. he comes to reveal things. Thought that was a good point......Blessings....

An immortal Spirit is not subjected to sin and death; an imperishable truth.

Who said that?

The Spirit returns to the who sent it, the Father.

Medieval Angelology, what is that?

A fallen Angel called Lucifer is a myth, it's one of those "dungeon's and dragon" stories.

What are Messengers/Angels?

He who walks in the Spirit of the day, eats from the tree of life.

"The tree of knowledge resides within the-ologies of men, moving back and forth between two poles; life and death."

True revelation comes from having the mind of Christ; the Spirit of Truth.

peacemaker

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2010, 06:04:53 AM
Another mysterious passage--


Daniel 4:17
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.


"the watchers"

H5894
עיר
‛ıyr
eer
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to H5782; a watcher, that is, an angel (as guardian): - watcher.

Dan 4:17  by the decree of the sifters is the sentence, and by the saying of the holy ones the requirement, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.

Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2010, 09:38:59 AM
An immortal Spirit is not subjected to sin and death; an imperishable truth.

Who said that?

The Spirit returns to the who sent it, the Father.

Medieval Angelology, what is that?

A fallen Angel called Lucifer is a myth, it's one of those "dungeon's and dragon" stories.

What are Messengers/Angels?

He who walks in the Spirit of the day, eats from the tree of life.

"The tree of knowledge resides within the-ologies of men, moving back and forth between two poles; life and death."

True revelation comes from having the mind of Christ; the Spirit of Truth.

peacemaker

Thank you, I like that. :thumbsup:

I do not know how YLT Came up with sifters. I can understand how it can be used in that way tho.
Dan 4:17  by the decree of the sifters is the sentence, and by the saying of the holy ones the requirement, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.

Brown and Driver have it as "messenger or envoy,"  and it has been used it some places as "ambassador"  I will stay away from the guardian part, I cant find the word in the bible.

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 06, 2010, 03:33:16 PM

Quote from: peacemaker on August 06, 2010, 09:38:59 AM
An immortal Spirit is not subjected to sin and death; an imperishable truth.

Who said that?

The Spirit returns to the who sent it, the Father.

Medieval Angelology, what is that?

A fallen Angel called Lucifer is a myth, it's one of those "dungeon's and dragon" stories.

What are Messengers/Angels?

He who walks in the Spirit of the day, eats from the tree of life.

"The tree of knowledge resides within the-ologies of men, moving back and forth between two poles; life and death."

True revelation comes from having the mind of Christ; the Spirit of Truth.

peacemaker

Thank you, I like that. :thumbsup:

well "Thats That." :msealed:

well "Thats That."   :msealed:   You betcha  :msealed: